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Author Topic: Muslim American organizations CIAR-PAC to vote Democrat...
winkey151
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quote:
Originally posted by Jesse:
AND with your position that passing laws would actually stop these things.

Awful lot of assumptions.


Are you are talking about laws for or against Abortion and Homosexual marriage? When have I ever said that passing laws would stop these things?

My only thoughts on the subject is that I believe abortion laws should be a States issue, I have concern about the way these issues have become human rights issues, (Especially since in one of the cases... there is another human who's rights are in question also) and I think that a vote should take place, not a judge making the decision.

But that is my opinion. [Eek!]

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winkey151
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Ken...
I am, by the way, enjoying a delicious bowl of home made shoyu ramen soup with a nice piece of fresh salmon on top. The broth is perfect, not too sweet not too salty and it has just the right amount of sesame chili oil to take it to the next level.
Yummm

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Jesse
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winkey-

More than few Muslims come here 'cause they've lived under Vice and Virtue squads, and know that they don't stop vice or promote virtue.

Whether or not the Koran condems homosexuality or abortion, they've lived in countries where governments try to stop these things...and they go on anyway.

It's perfectly reasonable to assume that they just don't believe government can't stop such activites, certainly more reasonable than assuming that they want us to keep doing dirty things so terrorists will keep attacking us.

After all, there are more than a few Arabic names on the list of folks who died on 9/11, and they're just as likely to get snuffed as any of the rest of us.

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winkey151
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quote:
Originally posted by Jesse:
After all, there are more than a few Arabic names on the list of folks who died on 9/11, and they're just as likely to get snuffed as any of the rest of us.

That is true... unless of course they start listening to the voices from across the pond telling them that they need to leave the US.
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kenmeer livermaile
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"...unless of course they start listening to the voices from across the pond telling them that they need to leave the US."

Brother! O sister! Return to beautiful Baghdad, city of the Seven Veils of Mystery and City of the Caliphs! Leave your tainted dwellings and their hot and cold running taps! Rejoin us in the fight to live as the Prophet, peace be unto him, taught us we should!

P.S. Bring antibiotics and batteries!!!!

Somehow, I don't think American Muslims are much swayed, as a group, to return to beautiful downtown Baghdad or the splendors of Tehran, city where bumper stickers read: HONK! IF YOU HAVE ANY HANDS! and stop signs say STOP! IF YOU HAVE ANY FEET!

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winkey151
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quote:
Originally posted by kenmeer livermaile:
"...unless of course they start listening to the voices from across the pond telling them that they need to leave the US."

Brother! O sister! Return to beautiful Baghdad, city of the Seven Veils of Mystery and City of the Caliphs! Leave your tainted dwellings and their hot and cold running taps! Rejoin us in the fight to live as the Prophet, peace be unto him, taught us we should!

P.S. Bring antibiotics and batteries!!!!

Somehow, I don't think American Muslims are much swayed, as a group, to return to beautiful downtown Baghdad or the splendors of Tehran, city where bumper stickers read: HONK! IF YOU HAVE ANY HANDS! and stop signs say STOP! IF YOU HAVE ANY FEET!

Now that was good.

[ October 23, 2006, 07:27 PM: Message edited by: winkey151 ]

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Dagonee
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quote:
Originally posted by winkey151:
quote:
Originally posted by Kent:
"Who would the terrorists rather have me vote for?" is going to be a question many people will ask themselves going to the polls. It doesn't help Democrats when any Muslims say to vote Democrat.

Kent.... that was my thought about it. I don't think it is helpful for any candidate to have their support and to many... I am sure that CAIR's endorsements will make them feel as squeamish as it makes me feel.
Can you please provide a link between CAIR and the terrorists other than "Muslim"?
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KnightEnder
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Yeah, let's vote. Since the country is made up of 85% Christians I'm sure that would be fair.

THANK GOD that we live in a REPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRACY instead of a true democracy. If not, the inmates would be running the asylum.

"Since in one case (abortion I assume) there is another human". That has not been proven so you can't state it as :fact". Or should we just assume everything you say is IMO?

And why are you concerned that homosexual marriage has become a human rights issue? Homosexuals are humans you know?

"I'm concerned that racial equality has become a human rights issue. And don't get me started on those darkies marrying our white women!"--Strom Thurmond (I'm sure he said something like that. Though I'm sure not as nicely.)


Some issues are bigger than the prejudices of certain individual States (I'm looking at you Bible Belt) and they go to the core of what America stands for. Thus, they must be addressed at the Federal level.

Of course I'd be happy to give one state, say Montana (beautiful state, I'm being nice here) for all the anti-homosexual, anti-equality between the races, anti-any religion but Christianity, anti-choice...er excuse me Pro-Life, you know; basically anti-American people to go live in. Of course Winkey in that state the men wouldn't let you vote, or work, or talk. But there's always a downside to that slippery slope of prejudice, fear, and hatred. I'm sure you sensible God fearing folk will work it out.

KE

[ October 23, 2006, 08:14 PM: Message edited by: KnightEnder ]

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kenmeer livermaile
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"Can you please provide a link between CAIR and the terrorists other than "Muslim"?"

Don't be surprized if she answers "Democrats".

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winkey151
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KE... the voting would be done within the states, just like prostitution, homosexual marriage, gambling and other such things. There are some states where people would vote to make things legal and others who would put restrictions or make laws to keep things out, but the people should be able to vote.

I am glad that we live in a Representative Democracy too but it might not be long before it doesn't matter. It is just a numbers game and eventually we will all be losers.

Except for those who are the winners. [Eek!]

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KnightEnder
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Yeah, that's us. [Smile]

And I understood what you meant by States voting on issues.

Gambling doesn't belong in there. And in all the others the government State or Federal shouldn't be allowed to tell people what to do with their bodies, IMO.

49% of the country isn't moving to Vegas, California, and Massachusetts just because we lost a vote by 2% points.

Your way would lead to Civil War. Wait, it already did. Like I said; Some things go to what it means to be an American and thus are too big for individual states to handle. Like slavery and abortion.

KE

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KnightEnder
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In other words the Bible thumpers would vote to trample the Constitution. Wishful thinking (for many), but it ain't gonna happen.

KE

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winkey151
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quote:
Originally posted by kenmeer livermaile:
"Can you please provide a link between CAIR and the terrorists other than "Muslim"?"

Don't be surprized if she answers "Democrats".

The link I have made came from articles I have read about their financial support of organizations that support terrorism. All you have to do is google a bit and you can read for yourself.

Here are a couple I just found in 2 minutes.... there have been at least four CAIR officials that have been charged with terrorism-related offenses and they have also been accused by the FBI for aising money for terrorist groups through fraudulent means.

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Dagonee
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quote:
Like slavery and abortion.
I liken abortion to slavery, to. Both are justified by considering a particular group of human beings to not be human beings. Both had restrictions on the practice overturned by Supreme Court decisions. One took a war and a constitutional amendment to stop. Hopefully the one still in play won't take that much.
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TommySama
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"(Especially since in one of the cases... there is another human who's rights are in question also) "

Perhaps she meant, to make you feel better, John, there is another being whose right to life is in question. God forbid (or maybe he did, but it doesn't really matter since that isn't really God's jurisdiction) women take a pill once a night, or get a shot in their ass 4 times a year, or make the people they have sex with put rubber on their dick, to prevent pregnancy.


"Yeah, let's vote. Since the country is made up of 85% Christians I'm sure that would be fair."

And since all of these people all look alike, have the same views, worship the same way, and actually really care about their religion, it would be totally unfair to the poor, opressed non-christian 15%.

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kenmeer livermaile
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That CAIR has executives who use the CAIR front speaks of Muslim jihad sympathizers using CAIR as a front. Whether that means that CAIR was designed to be such a front, or has merely been exploited by jihadists and used as a front, is another matter.

The many good and brave Americans, many of them immigrants, who suffered and persevered to make organizations like the AFL-CIO a positive force for working people did not have Jimmy Hoffa and corrupt labor officials in mind when they built the labor organization.

Specificially, I probe what is meant by "their" when you write:

"articles I have read about their financial support of organizations that support terrorism"

THe labor analogy I used also haes its corollary with Communists who played a significant and often powerful role in pre-WWII Labor movements. AS Stalin gave Communism a bad name, most of these dropped the Commie tag, but a few held on to the label and sympathized with Stalin and even supported him.

But Labor was mostly decent folks trying to make their lives better.

A brush toobroad tends to cover over what it paints rather than highlighting its features.

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KnightEnder
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Except there is no consensus on whether a fetus is a human or not, from a scientific civilized modernt standard. Not the same as the argument for slavery at all. But liken them all you want.

KE

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KnightEnder
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Amen Tommy. They vote alike. And they all follow the same rules in the same book. Of course most of the times it's their daughters having the abortions so maybe if they payed more attention about what's going on at home instead of sticking their noses in other peoples businesses it wouldn't be an issue.

And I'm not for using abortion as birth control, but I'm agianst the government telling women what women can do with their bodies, so Christians can have more little Christians in the pue, growing up to tithe their ten percent.

KE

[ October 23, 2006, 09:40 PM: Message edited by: KnightEnder ]

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Dagonee
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quote:
Except there is no consensus on whether a fetus is a human or not, from a scientific civilized modernt standard.
So there's no consensus one way or the other, but the people who don't side with your particular view of the divide on the question are un-American? Nice.
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kenmeer livermaile
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People who don't agree with one's view of what is un-American are un-American.... right?
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TommySama
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"Amen Tommy. They vote alike. And they all follow the same rules in the same book. Of course most of the times it's their daughters having the abortions so maybe if they payed more attention about what's going on at home instead of sticking their noses in other peoples businesses it wouldn't be an issue."

No, John, they don't vote alike. Not even people in the Catholic church. It's interesting that to prove a point you take a broad range of people like, "Christians" and say they are all the same. They're not. (Note, the bible doesn't say that abortion is murder, Catholics do.)


"Except there is no consensus on whether a fetus is a human or not, from a scientific civilized modernt standard. Not the same as the argument for slavery at all. But liken them all you want."

I must have missed the part in history when there was a consensus that blacks were people in the same sense that white's were people.

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TommySama
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"People who don't agree with one's view of what is un-American are un-American.... right?"

Wrong. Dagonee is every bit as American as any of us. KE's implying that it's un-American to want abortion banned. Is it American to tell somebody they can murder somebody dependant on them?

So tell me, what's the difference between a 9 month old fetus (which is legal to have 'aborted' in many places in the US) and a newborn baby one month later? It's out of the uterus, but it's still dependant on the mother for everything. Why can't a mother just terminate her born children because she can't feed them?

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TommySama
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"And I'm not for using abortion as birth control, but I'm agianst the government telling women what women can do with their bodies, so Christians can have more little Christians in the pue, growing up to tithe their ten percent."

Because as we all know. Every child who has been aborted would be raised into a tithing, flesh and blood, Republican voting conservative Catholic who hates women and human rights.

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KnightEnder
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No, that's just the people the are anti-choice.

KE

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KnightEnder
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quote:
Is it American to tell somebody they can murder somebody dependant on them?

See, the problem is we don't agree on the "somebody". I say that "somebody" doesn't exist. You say he/she does. But we both agree that the woman exists and y'all want to tell her what she can and can't do with her body.

And yes Dag, telling people what they can do with their own bodies goes against what America stands for.

I hate the abortion argument cause I could never do it, but I could also never tell a woman that I don't even know, what she can, and cannot do with her body. And if I really really thought that babies were being killed I'd be doing more than making smartass remarks on a political message board.

I have been swayed to agree that late term abortions once the fetus/baby can survive outside the body shouldn't be allowed. Cause then there IS another person. Until y'all can prove there IS another person earlier, you have no case.

Let's remember that Pro-Choice, much less voting Democrat doesn't equal pro-Islamic fundamentalist terrorists, which is what started this thread.

Sounds to me like Winkey thinks that Muslims share more of her values than Democrats?

KE

[ October 24, 2006, 12:32 AM: Message edited by: KnightEnder ]

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KnightEnder
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"No, John, they don't vote alike. Not even people in the Catholic church."

BS, how do you think GW got elected. Christians voted in block against abortion and homosexual marriage. Oh sure you can find the odd free thinking Chrisian but I'd bet more than 90% of Evangelical Christians voted for Bush.

KE

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kenmeer livermaile
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I thank heavens that our right to abort derailed threads hasn't been taken away by fundamentalist Internet fanatics.
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KnightEnder
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"I must have missed the part in history when there was a consensus that blacks were people in the same sense that white's were people. "

You must have Tommy. But I would have thought you'd heard of the Abolitionist movement, Abraham Lincoln, Civil War, Jim Crowe laws, Seperate but Equal, Martin Luther King Jr., and the Civil Rights movement? Not to mention the scientific research done that proves that their is almost no difference between the genetic makeup of blacks and whites. I know the public education system sucks, but surely they mentioned some of this?

KE

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KnightEnder
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*&^Z# you Ken. You can't tell Winkey what she can and can't do with her thread!

KE

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TommySama
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightEnder:
"I must have missed the part in history when there was a consensus that blacks were people in the same sense that white's were people. "

You must have Tommy. But I would have thought you'd heard of the Abolitionist movement, Abraham Lincoln, Civil War, Jim Crowe laws, Seperate but Equal, Martin Luther King Jr., and the Civil Rights movement? Not to mention the scientific research done that proves that their is almost no difference between the genetic makeup of blacks and whites. I know the public education system sucks, but surely they mentioned some of this?

KE

It indeed does suck, but surely when you studied it, they mentioned to you that besides the abolitionist movement all of those discoveries came after the civil war. It's a time-line.

Perhaps I should have specified for you that there was no evidence until long afterwards.

I mean I know the abolitionists believed blacks were human, but how is that much different than pro-life people today believing fetus' are human?

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TommySama
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"BS, how do you think GW got elected. Christians voted in block against abortion and homosexual marriage. Oh sure you can find the odd free thinking Chrisian but I'd bet more than 90% of Evangelical Christians voted for Bush."

Yeah, 90% of a smaller percent of the 85% of americans who are Christian. So how many of the 85% are evangelical?


"See, the problem is we don't agree on the "somebody". I say that "somebody" doesn't exist. You say he/she does. But we both agree that the woman exists and y'all want to tell her what she can and can't do with her body."

Actually I pretty much agree with you on abortion, as I think was determined a few months ago. What I don't agree with is your wild accusations towards people who have a different opinion than you. And actually you do want to tell her what she can and cannot do to her body.

"I have been swayed to agree that late term abortions once the fetus/baby can survive outside the body shouldn't be allowed."

The only difference between you and me is a couple of months.


"I thank heavens that our right to abort derailed threads hasn't been taken away by fundamentalist Internet fanatics."

We don't have that right. That, we leave up to the gods (Ornerymods.)

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seekingprometheus
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Not to imply that the tangents here haven't been interesting, but I think that the pith of this matter came out quite succintly in Kent's post:
quote:
"Who would the terrorists rather have me vote for?" is going to be a question many people will ask themselves going to the polls. It doesn't help Democrats when any Muslims say to vote Democrat.


...followed with the endorsement of our thread-starter:
quote:
Kent.... that was my thought about it. I don't think it is helpful for any candidate to have their support and to many... I am sure that CAIR's endorsements will make them feel as squeamish as it makes me feel.


The issue of whether certain individuals involved with CAIR may or may not have links with terrorism is interesting as a moot point, but it is actually misdirection. We have the distilled meaning of this thread right in Kent's post: "It doesn't help Democrats when any Muslims say to vote Democrat" (emphasis mine).

Now, if I were really brutish, I might suggest that the message Kent and Winky are sending is quite clearly that muslims make them (and many other Americans) "squeamish," but, alas, I don't suppose it would do anyone any good to say such a thing...no one would really gain insight from such a statement, and all I would really be doing would be incurring outrage--so I suppose that I won't say such a thing. [Wink]

(Edited to change word "post" to "thread.")

[ October 24, 2006, 02:34 AM: Message edited by: seekingprometheus ]

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seekingprometheus
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If I were REally brutish, then I might even suggest that the implication is even more accurately: "If muslims make you as squeamish as they make me, then you should know that they are voting for democrats" but again, what would really be gained by making such a suggestion? [Roll Eyes]
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TommySama
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Perhaps they were only noting an inevitable underlying prejudice Americans will feel towards Muslims because all we see of them (for the most part) is fighting in the ME. While they are very probably NOT representative of American muslims, humans still have our little prejudices.
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seekingprometheus
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Perhaps that is all that Kent is noting. I haven't been here long enough to be familiar with regular posters, and you are certainly correct insofar as Kent's post uses a generic subject "many people." My inference that he included himself in that crowd is unwarranted.

I suppose that it's a good thing that I decided "not" to proffer such a suggestion. [Wink]

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TommySama
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lol, yes. Good thing you didn't make any unwaranted insinuations [Wink]

Just so you know though, try not to assume other peoples motives or beliefs, they get really offended. Plus I think it's against the rules if you're too borish about it.

Otherwise, i hope that OA helps bring you the (intellectual) light you appear to be seeking [Smile]


Oh, right...
Welcome to Ornery.

You are wrong.

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seekingprometheus
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tommy

I do think that it is worth noting that the democrats aren't the ones broadly advertising the fact that they have the support of these muslim organizations. If they were advertising this support, then making the observation that such support might be a turnoff to a prejudiced population could certainly be construed as a simple note to begin a conversation about prejudice, or an inquiry into the soundness of the political tactics of the Democrats. But this thread is not responding to a tactic the Democrats have taken. It simply publicizes the political leaning of certain muslims, assumes the malevolent intent and inimical status of all muslims, and implies that people should not support a political platform that muslims (our enemies) support.

In other words--I don't see how this could be construed as a disinterested disquisition into the vagaries of American prejudice.

Again--this regards what was said by the initiator of the thread--Kent's comment could certainly be a simple summation.

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seekingprometheus
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And, quibbling though it may be, you'll please notice that I do not ascribe a motivation or set of beliefs but refer rather to "the message (they) are sending" and the "implication" of the posts. If it is considered inappropriate to translate or reword the message I believe another poster is sending, then I apologize abjectly. (Please let me know if this is the case).
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Dagonee
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quote:
Oh sure you can find the odd free thinking Chrisian...
So it's not "free-thinking" unless it agrees with you? Or disagrees with other people who share some other beliefs? Do you read this stuff before posting it?

[ October 24, 2006, 08:08 AM: Message edited by: Dagonee ]

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winkey151
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightEnder:
In other words the Bible thumpers would vote to trample the Constitution. Wishful thinking (for many), but it ain't gonna happen.

KE

Could you please give examples of what part of the Constitution "Bible thumpers" would vote to trample on?
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