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Author Topic: The system only works...
Everard
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...if you have connections.

Back at the ornery 8 incident, Pete was able to get in touch with the Cards, because he knew them, and have them look into the situation that was created when the moderator suspended 8 people.

I can't get in touch with the cards... I've tried several times to contact the administrators of this site, but I don't have OSC on speed dial, so I can't get through.

I detailed to javelin exactly how he violated the user agreement and the rules laid out by the Cards for moderation of this website, when he suspended me for actions taken off the ornery message board. I also wrote to the cards, through the ornery website, explaining why I thought they needed to look into javelins actions.

Whether or not they would have found his actions appropriate, I can't even find out... because I haven't received an email in response from ANYONE associated with the ornery.org website.

Its frustrating. I'd like to know whehter the people who pay for this site approve of the methods that javelin employed as moderator, but I can't get that information... because I don't know the Card family, as Pete does.

Too bad. I thought the Cards were better then that, or at least cared more then that. But I guess they don't. Once again, who you know is more important then everything else combined.

I'm not interested in debating whether javelin was right or wrong to suspend me... we did that debate on this board, when Paladine started his thread, and there's no reason to do it again. Everyone has their opinion, and will stick to it, in all liklihood.

It just frustrates me that your voice can only be heard if you have "connections."

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Kent
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Javelin is one of the Mods? [Eek!]

No wonder he is so much more resposible in his postings lately.

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Dave at Work
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Everard,

I notice that OSC is posting frequently on the Hatrack site. Maybe you could contact him through there. He should be able to be contacted through Ornery, but since that seems to be failing you might try contacting him through Hatrack. At the very least you could confirm whether he is aware of the situation or not.

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Kent
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Mods, please give me the number to your manager; I'd like to speak with him about your poor customer service.
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LoverOfJoy
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He occasionally frequents the hatrack forum so I guess you could try there. *shrug* I doubt he'd do anything anyway. The moderators are there in part to keep him from having to deal with things like this. He's a busy man. If you had a lot of other people agreeing with you and also trying to contact him, maybe he'd be more inclined to take action. Maybe checking out all that happened is just a low priority thing on his to-do list that hasn't risen up the list yet.

I personally don't agree with you and I get the impression that the majority of others that DO agree that the mods made a wrong call don't feel it was a sufficiently wrong call to involve the Cards. I respect your right to disagree, though.

I have no idea how involved Card got during the Ornery 8 period but I got the impression that Card is even more hands-off now than he was then. Didn't the original Mod say something about him considering shutting the whole forum down at one point? I imagine even Pete or others who know Card would have a more difficult time getting Card to invest more time on this site.

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Everard
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I don't want to bring an ornery "meta-topic" into the hatrack boards, but it might be worth it :-/
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Kent
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Well don't do anything that would shut down this forum for the rest of us. Just be your regular light hearted, playful self and I'm sure you'll do fine.
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Everard
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" imagine even Pete or others who know Card would have a more difficult time getting Card to invest more time on this site."

I agree. But he DID get involved with ornery 8, as far as I am aware. And he really only did so because he knew pete. But apparently no one who operates this website is willing to reply to emails... whether its OSC, his wife, kathryn janitor, or anyone else involved who I don't know about. Which leaves me with the impression that I don't get a response because I don't know OSC, unlike pete, who does. Does that mean my concerns are less important?

Apparently so. And THATS frustrating, and systematic in our society.

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The Drake
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Some people find ways to put things behind them.
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Dave at Work
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Do they not have a way to PM members on Hatrack? I participate there even more sporadically than I do here?
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Everard
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And some of us take communities we've invested large amounts of time and energy in seriously.
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LoverOfJoy
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quote:
Which leaves me with the impression that I don't get a response because I don't know OSC, unlike pete, who does. Does that mean my concerns are less important?

Apparently so. And THATS frustrating, and systematic in our society.

Or he just doesn't bother checking his Ornery email regularly anymore. *shrug*
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LinuxFreakus
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When did you get suspended? I didn't even notice... then again I don't post *that* much... I tend to go in cycles, where I post a lot in a short time and then I disappear for a while because I'm too busy or whatever.
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Everard
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"Or he just doesn't bother checking his Ornery email regularly anymore. *shrug*"

He didn't at the time of the ornery 8, either.

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Jesse
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Everard-

I understand your frustration, but I hope you can understand that Card (or anyone who may or may not have read your E-mail) may have felt the massive scale of the events involved in the Ornery 8 incident warranted his attention, while he may feel that events involving the suspension of one poster do not.

Congresscritters pay attention when 100,000 people E-mail them, not when one does.

Whatever contacts Pete may have, it's entirely possible that Card would have "ignored" him had he been the only one directly and immediatly affected.

I understand that you percieve an injustice to have occured, and I really don't have an opinion on whether or not one did. I completely get that it was a big deal to you, but it's not to me. Sorry, just the truth. Had you been banned I'd care enough to try to wade through the sequence of events and come up with an opinion.

Your problem may not be one of contacts, it may be one of scale and of severity. I'm not saying that you are wrong to feel that the events involved in your suspension warrant attention, but I hope that you can see that others may honestly disagree with you about the level of attention warranted.

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Everard
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*Shrug* Maybe it IS the scale. But I honestly wonder... how many emails does the administrator get from ornery members?
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LinuxFreakus
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I doubt it is really *that* much... but who knows. I know I have sent one email to the admin since I've been a member, and it was answered within 24 hours.
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Jesse
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No idea.
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Daruma28
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Maybe Jav is the ADMIN too?

[LOL]

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The Drake
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quote:
Originally posted by Everard:
And some of us take communities we've invested large amounts of time and energy in seriously.

I take this forum seriously also, and have invested significant time in it as well. Does taking something seriously require one to carry a grudge indefinitely?

What do you hope to gain?

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LoverOfJoy
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quote:
Maybe Jav is the ADMIN too?
Don't you remember when I confessed that I, and most of the others here, are all characters created by Orson Scott Card? We're ALL the ADMIN...and Owner to boot! [Smile]
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Liberal
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I'd just like to point out I was the first one to realize javelin was a mod when he blatantly used the mod position and email to harass me and then lie about it in this thread where you can see both him and the mod mocking me and pretending all was well.

I say he loses mod status and gets banned from the site, this is ridiculous.


Oh yeah, and everyone who posted on that thread that I was overreacting and that there was no proof that javelin was the mod needs to apologize [Razz] [Wink]

[ October 26, 2006, 09:04 PM: Message edited by: Liberal ]

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Kent
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I hate everyone! Ban them!
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LoverOfJoy
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quote:
I'd just like to point out I was the first one to realize javelin was a mod when he ...
Well, not that it matters or that I care but technically I realized it before then. I just kept relatively quiet about it.

He accidentally responded to me once under the OrneryMod username. He later fixed the mistake but you can see my realization still here.

He confirmed it when he said "True. [Frown] " although he did get rid of the rest of the evidence so I think few others if anyone knew what we were talking about.

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LoverOfJoy
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quote:
I hate everyone! Ban them!
Everyone includes blacks and jews. Kent's a racist and antisemite! Ban him! [Exploding]
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Daruma28
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I have a suggestion for you Jav, if you get around to reading this thread...

Just dispense with using OrneryMod handle, and change the status under your "Javelin" screen name from "Member" to "Moderator."

Your cover is WAY blown, so don't even try to use it anymore...

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LoverOfJoy
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quote:
Just dispense with using OrneryMod handle, and change the status under your "Javelin" screen name from "Member" to "Moderator."

Your cover is WAY blown, so don't even try to use it anymore...

Nah. Most people knew msquared was OrneryMod for a long time. I thought it was still useful to use that username when he was speaking "officially" versus just regular debating.
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Liberal
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or maybe give it up? It's obvious he lied when he was called on pretending not to be it, and that he used his power for a personal vendetta against someone at the board (me).

Anyone who finds himself trounced in an argument and then uses their moderator powers to try to "silence" someone doesn't deserve that power.

This is also another demonstration of the added effects of anonymous moderating. Did I not say ahead of time when the switch was made that the anonymous aspect would result in power abuses?


Javelin, you might as well tell us who the other moderator is, hopefully if anything you have learned from this that this anonymous crap isn't working and allows people like you to abuse the system. Try to redeem yourself even a little and tell us who the other one is, since it is clear they don't have the honor to do it themselves.

[ October 26, 2006, 09:24 PM: Message edited by: Liberal ]

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LoverOfJoy
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Besides, there is still another member who also uses the "OrneryMod" handle. I'm pretty sure that most people don't know who that is. This is partly why I didn't find Liberal's argument all that convincing even when I already knew jav was one of the moderators. Didn't they already say that if one of the moderators was involved or personally invested in a particular thread that the other would be the one to handle it? I'm pretty sure they said something to that effect when they first became moderators. I wouldn't be surprised at all if javelin was also told to back off and chill while the other ornerymod handled things from that point on although I can't remember the specific problem that was going on then anymore.
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pickled shuttlecock
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I get the feeling that this site is Orson Scott Card's Star Wars Holiday Special.
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Liberal
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quote:
Originally posted by LoverOfJoy:
Besides, there is still another member who also uses the "OrneryMod" handle. I'm pretty sure that most people don't know who that is. This is partly why I didn't find Liberal's argument all that convincing even when I already knew jav was one of the moderators. Didn't they already say that if one of the moderators was involved or personally invested in a particular thread that the other would be the one to handle it? I'm pretty sure they said something to that effect when they first became moderators. I wouldn't be surprised at all if javelin was also told to back off and chill while the other ornerymod handled things from that point on although I can't remember the specific problem that was going on then anymore.

And you trust them.....why?
Javelin was already proven to have lied about it multiple times. I never specifically accused him of being the mod who sent those emails to me, I even added the stipulation that maybe he wasn't even one of the mods, maybe he just knew them. The point is that I did say point blank that I thought he could be a mod and he denied it. What makes you think the other mod isn't a liar also? If they have nothing to hide about their actions then why remain anonymous? The only reason I can think to why they would want to remain anonymous after an incident like this is because they've done something similar and it will become obvious. I will say it again, even before this happened being anonymous was counterproductive, now there can be no claimed benefit to this forum for the other mod to stay anonymous.

[ October 26, 2006, 09:33 PM: Message edited by: Liberal ]

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LoverOfJoy
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What is the benefit of knowing the other moderator's personal handle? So you can chew them out in their "real" name, too?

The sad thing is that when people disagree with a decision the moderators made, they always seem to take it personal as if the moderators have it out for them and are just generally bad people.

If someone is always fair and evenhanded and considerate in their everyday life then why forever hold it against them when one decision they made in their official capacity as moderator didn't seem like the right decision? It seems like quite a few people here can more easily ignore a thousand thoughtful, reasoned, fair posts and remember the one or two times when that person warned them to cool it.

Even the private emails that people received from the mods and posted here seemed to be totally calm, reasoned, and polite. Authoritative, perhaps. Maybe some decisions weren't up for debate. But they were always of the sort of, "we have decided these kind of comments are disruptive or antagonistic. We ask that you please stop or take it to private emails."

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Liberal
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LoJ, its not that people always take the moderating actions personally, but when there is a major discrepancy in judgment that only one member is arguing and then that same reasoning shows up with the mod and no one else, that is highly suspect.

Besides, in this case it was shown that the mod WAS abusing their power.

The purpose of knowing the other mod isn't to "chew them out," its to prevent another situation where there is even a SUSPICION of power abuse, especially now that we have had a bona fide case of it.

[ October 26, 2006, 10:46 PM: Message edited by: Liberal ]

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Dagonee
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quote:
Besides, in this case it was shown that the mod WAS abusing their power.
It was? By what definition of "shown"?
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Kent
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I love Javelin, he will always be my Mod.
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LoverOfJoy
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quote:
when there is a major discrepancy in judgment that only one member is arguing and then that same reasoning shows up with the mod and no one else, that is highly suspect.
So if I felt that someone was rude, offensive, and breaking the rules and I call them on it, explain why, and then email the mod with my explanation and then the mod jumps in and says, "yes, that was rude, offensive and broke the rules" and agrees with and reiterates my explanation, then that is "highly suspect" and evidence of wrongdoing? To me that sounds like the way things should be. If no one else jumps on the bandwagon of, "yeah, you were naughty!" I would consider that a GOOD thing, not evidence of wrongdoing. Even if everybody else explicitly disagreed that it was rude, offensive and against the rules I wouldn't take that as any serious evidence of power abuse. People can fairly make an unpopular decision without it being an abuse of power.

edited to add: and knowing a moderator's other username doesn't really prevent a moderator from abusing his powers. Remember, I knew who javelin was before your incident happened.

[ October 26, 2006, 11:08 PM: Message edited by: LoverOfJoy ]

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pickled shuttlecock
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Ah, but did the moderator know you knew?

I want to know what everyone knew, and when they knew it, and who knew that they knew it, and who knew that they knew that they knew it. Only then can we extricate ourselves from this tidy knot of deception.

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Liberal
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quote:
Originally posted by LoverOfJoy:
quote:
when there is a major discrepancy in judgment that only one member is arguing and then that same reasoning shows up with the mod and no one else, that is highly suspect.
So if I felt that someone was rude, offensive, and breaking the rules and I call them on it, explain why, and then email the mod with my explanation and then the mod jumps in and says, "yes, that was rude, offensive and broke the rules" and agrees with and reiterates my explanation, then that is "highly suspect" and evidence of wrongdoing? To me that sounds like the way things should be. If no one else jumps on the bandwagon of, "yeah, you were naughty!" I would consider that a GOOD thing, not evidence of wrongdoing. Even if everybody else explicitly disagreed that it was rude, offensive and against the rules I wouldn't take that as any serious evidence of power abuse. People can fairly make an unpopular decision without it being an abuse of power.

edited to add: and knowing a moderator's other user name doesn't really prevent a moderator from abusing his powers. Remember, I knew who javelin was before your incident happened.

No, more like: you are arguing with several people and one of them is the mod. Out of all the people only the disguised-mod argues a certain thing, then the official mod emails you about it echoing his sentiments EXACTLY.


Also, you kept his name quiet so it doesn't really have any effect on the situation. In a way, even though you saw what he was doing and how he was lying and harassing members, you kept quiet and just let it happen. And here I thought that was Edward Burke's standard for evil. [Razz]


Dagonee, it was shown when javelin point-blank lied in that thread, and when he had a problem with me and then subsequently used his mod powers to email me about it no less than a few minutes after that happened.

[ October 26, 2006, 11:16 PM: Message edited by: Liberal ]

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KnightEnder
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Some pigs are more equal than others. I can almost garuntee you I'll be goaded into being gone soon.

It's a freaking Witch hunt.

Maybe I'll start a blog. People can't censure you or talk back to you on a blog can they?

KE

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LoverOfJoy
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Don't leave KE. I won't tell them you're the other mod so you can continue abusing your powers. [Wink]

Seriously, though. Losing KE would be a loss for the forum. As would losing javelin. They are both valued posters in my eyes even though I find myself disagreeing with them sometimes.

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