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Author Topic: The system only works...
KnightEnder
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Who's the "other" Mod? Dag or Red? I'd really like to know who I have to be careful whom I disagree with. (like that'll happen).

I have no power here, other than I've invested a lot of time here, come up with quite a few ideas that have made the forum better such as the MC thread and OWW, and quite a few people have said they enjoy my posts.

In fact on one poll on "Who is you favorite poster" I was several peoples favorite posters. I'm not saying this to brag, but when I'm goaded into being banned this place is going to be the choir singing to the choir.

KE

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LoverOfJoy
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quote:
have no power here... but when I'm goaded into being banned ...
That IS your power. You can refuse to be goaded. You have the power to calm down, listen to the mod's request to change, or simply to walk away.
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Liberal
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LoJ, it would be nice if the mods gave us a choice of whether we accepted them as mods or not and then made our choice to stay here or not based on that-- especially given one of them is a proven liar and abused his power.

It is sort of unfair to ask us to walk away from a board we used to appreciate because we don't know whether we can trust the mods and because we don't know who both of them are. The answer for trust of javelin has been answered, he is untrustworthy. If he had lied as a normal posting member it wouldn't be so bad, but he used his power for personal desires and then lied about it and his identity. The default option if this situation doesn't get resolved is exactly what KE stated, people will leave.

[ October 26, 2006, 11:41 PM: Message edited by: Liberal ]

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KnightEnder
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I would like to add that I have always liked Jav, and still do, even though I'm afraid I will be forced to force him to ban me soon because of certain posters inablility to discuss like gentlemen. (God knows that has nothing to do with age.) I'm just not happy about the way things seem to be going.

When M2 was Mod, apologizing like I did to Red, even though he insulted me (I responded too forcefully) M2 let the forum take care of itself.

KE

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LoverOfJoy
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quote:
Who's the "other" Mod? Dag or Red?
Out of curiosity, why would you guess red? He was one of the more vocal people complaining about the new mods when everard got suspended.
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KnightEnder
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Nice to see that Red still hasn't been big enough to accept my apology or explain why he insulted me. No matter how profusely I apologized for flying off the handle after he insulted me.

Some pigs are more equal.

KE

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KnightEnder
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LOJ,

No guess. Those are just the two guys I have had problems with lately and I so I threw them out there. I have no idea who the other one is.

KE

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Liberal
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quote:
Originally posted by LoverOfJoy:
quote:
Who's the "other" Mod? Dag or Red?
Out of curiosity, why would you guess red? He was one of the more vocal people complaining about the new mods when everard got suspended.
As much as I despise Red for his openly-bigoted view of the Palestinians as a whole and his repeated call for their genocide, he was right to call for the mods to resign a while ago.

They need to resign NOW.

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KnightEnder
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Just pointing out that if nobody knows who he is he can use his Mod like powers to punish or have Jav punish those he disagrees with.

Everybody makes mistakes, but no matter how much I apologized to Red I still got a reprimand. And if I get a reprimand after profusely apologizing, AFTER being insulted first, shouldn't Dag be suspended for insulting a member, twice now, and never having given the slightest hint that he might have done anything wrong.

KE

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KnightEnder
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Hey, if I was OSC I'd want me gone too. I undermine everything he stands for. Making people who feel the same way he does Mods is a quick way of getting rid of those that he doesn't like.

So, LOJ, my POWER is I can knuckle under and be a good little boy? Stop talking bad about religion, and they'll let me stay?

Basically that's what my letter said; "Well the way you talk about Christianity you have to expect some people to insult you now and then" (paraphrased)

In the old days you could discuss and even insult organizations, but insulting members was against the rules. Apparently Christianity has taken own its own member standing.

See you in the bread line Rich, Ken, Liberal, Ev, Pete.

Then the choir can sing to the choir. I'm sure the music will be beautiful to their ears.

KE

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LoverOfJoy
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quote:
In a way, even though you saw what he was doing and how he was lying and harassing members, you kept quiet and just let it happen.
I can't say I saw all you claim he did. I followed the thread for a bit but I can't say that I didn't miss anything said in it. I'm sure I miss new posts all the time. I certainly don't remember him denying he was a mod. Although, to be honest, even if he did, that wouldn't be enough to outrage me and "out" him. It seems like back when they first announced the new mods they made a comment, like, "guess all you like, but even if you guess right, we'll probably deny it." Having already warned us I wouldn't consider them liars exactly when they do as they said they would.

What I read of the thread really didn't seem like abuse of power or harrassment to me. Maybe I missed some of it. *shrug*

If anything, I'd say that javelin has lost his cool more times since his modship has been made known than before. I'm sure msquared picked him in part because he really wasn't one to lose his cool and often has shown that he's able to step back from a situation that's heating up and not take sides. Even more recently when I've seen a few times when he lost his cool a tad he QUICKLY apologized and either left the thread or changed his ways. That seems odd behavior coming from a lying power-hungry goading harrasser.

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OrneryMod
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I am just logging in and need to correct a couple of misconceptions.

Liberal, in point of fact it was not javelin who was moderating on the day in question.

You were nasty and personal, and I emailed you to that effect. In fact, if I recall correctly, I did so without consulting or notifying the
other Mod, contrary to our usual practice. You may disagree with my assessment of your actions, but there certainly wasn't anything mysterious or conspiratorial about it. If we were the draconian ogres you seem to think we are, we'd never have tolerated the thread you mounted then, nor several others since then, including what this one has become, though Everard clearly stated his intent for this thread.

There has been no lying and certainly no mockery of you by any moderator on this board, and I can't object strongly enough to your statements to that effect.

Your descriptions and conclusions about the thread in question bear very
little resemblance to what actually occurred, in my opinion. Anyone wishing to draw their own conclusions may follow your link and review
the thread in question.

KE, you were not reprimanded for your exchange with Red, and I'm sorry that wasn't clear to you. You were contacted following a completely different exchange on the board yesterday. We mentioned your exchange with Red, and thanked you for your efforts to resolve the misunderstanding on the board. And I'm sure when Redskull logs in again, he'll respond to you appropriately.

I am, I must confess, somewhat flabbergasted by some of the needless spin being placed on events here.

edited because I'd hoped to fix the odd formatting, but can't seem to. Also as I am on the east coast, I am retiring. Persons wishing to comment or question can either email or post here and I will address their remarks in the morning.

[ October 27, 2006, 12:05 AM: Message edited by: OrneryMod ]

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Liberal
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quote:
Originally posted by OrneryMod:
I am just logging in and need to correct a couple of misconceptions.

Liberal, in point of fact it was not javelin who was moderating on the day in question.

You were nasty and personal, and I emailed you to that effect. In fact, if I recall correctly, I did so without consulting or notifying the
other Mod, contrary to our usual practice. You may disagree with my assessment of your actions, but there certainly wasn't anything mysterious or conspiratorial about it. If we were the draconian ogres you seem to think we are, we'd never have tolerated the thread you mounted then, nor several others since then, including what this one has become, though Everard clearly stated his intent for this thread.

There has been no lying and certainly no mockery of you by any moderator on this board, and I can't object strongly enough to your statements to that effect.

Your descriptions and conclusions about the thread in question bear very
little resemblance to what actually occurred, in my opinion. Anyone wishing to draw their own conclusions may follow your link and review
the thread in question.

KE, you were not reprimanded for your exchange with Red, and I'm sorry that wasn't clear to you. You were contacted following a completely different exchange on the board yesterday. We mentioned your exchange with Red, and thanked you for your efforts to resolve the misunderstanding on the board. And I'm sure when Redskull logs in again, he'll respond to you appropriately.

I am, I must confess, somewhat flabbergasted by some of the needless spin being placed on events here.

...

What possible reason do we have to believe you are not javelin, or anything you say for that matter? You are quite wrong about that thread and your emails, and they are still posted here to prove it. The fact is is that javelin had a singular interpretation of my actions on that thread, and the only one to echo them was the ornery mod's nasty email in my inbox.
http://www.ornery.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=008921#000000

javelin was asked point blank whether he was a mod, he said no. That's called a lie. You can call it whatever you want. I tell you this, you are not inspiring any great trust. That post you made was rash, defensive, accusatory and emotional. You are losing it and you might as well unmask too.

[ October 27, 2006, 12:05 AM: Message edited by: Liberal ]

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kenmeer livermaile
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Ah, to run away from home, 10 years old, a knapsack or pillow case full of Really Important Stuff, the dilemma of delegating hamster care to those who are deemed no longer worthy to take care of oneself.

It is how we discover what home means to us.

And last we forget: you can't fire me! I QUIT!

Y'all have no idea how annoyingly meddlesome msquared was to me when I first entered the chamber of ornery. No, ms wasn't trying to be annoyingly meddlesome; that was just my subjective impression. I knew nothing of recent events before my entry (I believe The Ornery Eight had had finally settled down).

ms was putting out fires, or the sparks thereof, that ms percieved in me partly because he recognized a certain feistiness in me but also, I believe, because he'd been conditioned to anticipate trouble.

A few months later, ms let me swing a mackerel with only minor intervention.

Since then, the new mods, in their combined wisdom, have seen fit to admonish me privately twice or thrice. I have also thought I detected some reference to me in a few of their public adjustments, but subjective impressions are fallible.

Here's what I've seen in both the old monomodic mod, ms, and the new, polymodic mods, O&M. When the balance of personal affrontery far outweighs the substance of the topic about, or at last in which the disagreement was spawned (is TOO a nice word!), O&M or Mod of Yore would step in to remind us that it ain't about us nearly so much as about US: the chatter that is possibe only through there being a critical mass of posters who also have that Cheers thing. You know, you wanna go where everybody knows your name.

It ain't about being fair any more than our parents grabbing the first brat they could find, smacking them, and making it clear there were more smacks to be had if we didn't shut up and behave right then. Like Bill COsby said sow ell: "PArents don't care about justice. Parents care about peace and quiet."

Or, in the case of ornery, a steady hum of contended contention.

Anyway, YOU started it! So THERE!!!

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The Drake
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I will state here and now that if the mob rules, and causes our current mod(s) to step down voluntarily or otherwise, I'm through here. Because what we'll have is an endless minority of contributors feeling slighted, pressing their case and harassing the Mod or Mods until they quit.

It is really simple to avoid running afoul of the Mods. Don't be an ass. Don't accuse others of being an ass. Don't ever use the words dirty, slimy, liar, asshole, cocksucker, or son-of-a-bitch to describe your fellow contributors. If someone does any of this to you, take the high ground and don't retaliate.

Out of one thousand ways to imply or state that your opponent is full of ****, nine-hundred ninety are acceptable. Take your warning like an adult when you hit the one in one hundred that freaks out the Mod Squad.

If you absolutely must call somebody a lying, cheating, son-of-a-whore who bathes irregularly and offer them psychological help at Le Centre du Lobotomie, or imply that they've already been a patient in that facility, exercise your right to send email through the board and save the rest of us from your tiresome whining.

Deserve's got nothing to do with it. If you're real mad about that, go on a hunger strike and post constantly on theornerymodsareabusingtheirpower.blogspot.com

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LoverOfJoy
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quote:
So, LOJ, my POWER is I can knuckle under and be a good little boy? Stop talking bad about religion, and they'll let me stay?

Basically that's what my letter said; "Well the way you talk about Christianity you have to expect some people to insult you now and then" (paraphrased)

KE, I haven't read your letter but nearly everything I have seen has suggested that the mods are almost always warning people on the WAY they say things not the actual substance of the message. The only other type of warning I've heard of was when personal disputes start going back and forth. That kind of stuff is better taken off the board and resolved by email anyway.

That doesn't mean that you can't voice your frustration with aspects of christianity. You've done it for quite a while since the new mods were put in and I somehow doubt they've been sending you warnings all this time (only because if they had, you'd probably be banned by now). You are usually really good at qualifying your harsher statements so people don't think you're claiming it's true of every christian or things like that. If a mod asks you to make a similar qualification for another comment, does that make you a "good little boy" who knuckled under?

Again, I haven't read your email or know the circumstances under which it came so maybe the mods did go over the top. But every complaint I've seen so far has ended up seeming a bit less extreme when more details come out. It's possible that even if the mods really did come off sounding extreme that they didn't mean to come off that way and just weren't clear in how THEY worded themselves.

We all have times when what we say comes off sounding worse to SOMEONE than how we really meant it. I know I've definitely made some jokes that I later regretted because someone read it the wrong way.

I've also strongly stated my beliefs at times in a way that came across as condescending or obnoxious in one way or another. In every case I could have rephrased my beliefs in a way that would have improved the debate.

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kenmeer livermaile
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"javelin was asked point blank whether he was a mod, he said no. That's called a lie."

Where I come from (Terra) calling folks liars is a sure way to piss 'em off. DOn't know why; we're mostly a bunch of liars. Maybe that's why? Truth hurts?

But enough of this. Truth be told: I am M. seekingprometheus is O. And, as anyone can tell, seeking prometheus and I are one and the same. As Lester Young once said of Stan Getz: "He sounds more like me than I do."

Although the reverse is also true...

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KnightEnder
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Mod,

I appreciate you clearing up the Red situation. Thank you.

However, in the Dag situation I still feel I am being punished for holding an unpopular view. "You insult Christianity so you have to expect to be insulted sometimes".

That's not right. I love baseball. But if somebody say poster X insulted baseball all the time it wouldn't give me the right to insult him persnally or question his ability to think logically.

KE

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KnightEnder
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Damn I get tired of being wrong.

Seems I was here again. That's twice in one day. Not a record, but nothing I'm proud of.

Seems I misunderstood. I will refrain, though it is against my nature, from poppin off when someone insults me and give the Mods the chance to do their job.

I hope Red sees my mea culpa in the morning and is receptive, as he is one of my favorite posters to read here on OA.

KE

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Liberal
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The Drake is the other one (I've confirmed it from a fairly reliable source).
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LoverOfJoy
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quote:
Deserve's got nothing to do with it. If you're real mad about that, go on a hunger strike and post constantly on theornerymodsareabusingtheirpower.blogspot.com
LOL I pasted that url in not really expecting it to work but just trying it out for the fun of it. I laughed so hard to see it was a real url!
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KnightEnder
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The Drake

In the General Comments Forum

With a Verb

[ October 27, 2006, 12:32 AM: Message edited by: KnightEnder ]

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pickled shuttlecock
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Maybe the moderators should stop sending private emails and just post on the threads in question to protect their good reputations.

Not that I'm calling KE a liar or anything, because he's not. But the only thing I see of emails from the mods are secondhand reports which usually make them out to be more draconian than they are. I'd probably "spin" things my way myself if it ever came up.

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KnightEnder
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Hilarious Eric! [Big Grin] (Thanks LOJ, very funny)

KE

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pickled shuttlecock
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quote:
Originally posted by LoverOfJoy:
quote:
Deserve's got nothing to do with it. If you're real mad about that, go on a hunger strike and post constantly on theornerymodsareabusingtheirpower.blogspot.com
LOL I pasted that url in not really expecting it to work but just trying it out for the fun of it. I laughed so hard to see it was a real url!
Same here. I would have roflol, etc., except my wife is sleeping just a few feet away. Anyway:

[LOL]

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Liberal
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quote:
Originally posted by pickled shuttlecock:
Maybe the moderators should stop sending private emails and just post on the threads in question to protect their good reputations.

Not that I'm calling KE a liar or anything, because he's not. But the only thing I see of emails from the mods are secondhand reports which usually make them out to be more draconian than they are. I'd probably "spin" things my way myself if it ever came up.

It's not spin when you post the exact email and they even agree that its unedited.
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KnightEnder
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Pickle,

I agree. I think that if a member references a letter sent to them by the Mod then they automatically give permission to the Mods to post it on the forum if they see fit.

I doubt they will as I left out the part where Jav questioned my sexuality and the other Mod compared me to Hitler. [Wink]

KE

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LoverOfJoy
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quote:
I doubt they will as I left out the part where Jav questioned my sexuality and the other Mod compared me to Hitler.
Of course. They wouldn't want to embarrass you with all the details they provided that proved those claims. [Wink]
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canadian
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The system only works when one ceases to whinge.
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KnightEnder
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Details hell! They got pictures! (Although my lawyer insists I maintain they were doctored. Especially that one with the Donkey in Tijauna.)

KE

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kenmeer livermaile
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"The system only works when one stops whinging."

Why are you talking with your fingers pinching your nose like that?

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pickled shuttlecock
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[LOL]

Honestly, Liberal, if you were wearing black leather pants, a plaid cotton shirt, and a pink feather boa, and someone told you your outfit was gaudy, you'd call them a liar.

Yeah. You're a bit quick on that "L" trigger. IMNSHO, of course. Gotta qualify that. Wouldn't want to be called a liar over a justifiable opinion or anything.

At any rate, since you posted the actual email, that particular situation wouldn't exactly fall in my universe of discourse, would it? If I only saw secondhand reports of mod emails - and no, I don't read every Ornery thread religiously - then I wasn't talking about your situation.

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RickyB
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Liberal, you talk of "the new mods ruining a place you used to love."

Can you see why that statement rings a bit hollow?

I don't know if you or the mods are right about your dispute, but I do know that it was very soon after I first remember you posting here that I remember you complaining - with terrible affrontedness - about the mods. I lay in to people pretty good on ocassion, and the new mods have actually given me more passes than mark used to - and I always thought mark did a hell of a job.

And in case you wonder - I used to pen pals with OSC, but he ain't answere my emails since before the 2004 elections. So I sure as hell ain't getting by on that.

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Everard
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"I take this forum seriously also, and have invested significant time in it as well. Does taking something seriously require one to carry a grudge indefinitely?

What do you hope to gain?"

I hope to understand the rules ornery operates under.

Since all the information given to us as members of ornery either explicitly or implicitly tells us that the moderators do not have the right to suspend us for off-ornery actions, and since I was, by the admission of the mods, suspended for off-ornery actions, I want to know whether this is ornery sanctioned rules changes, or whether javelin (and the other mod by implication, since the other mod backed him up) over-stepped his bounds.

If, as the user-agreement suggests, javelin over-stepped his bounds, I want an official source to tell him he did so, in order that he not do it again. And if he didn't over-step his bounds, I want the user-agreement changed to reflect the fact that what we do OFF of this forum can affect our status ON this forum.

And I want to be part of the process so I know the process is conducted with both sides of the story being visible.

[ October 27, 2006, 05:50 AM: Message edited by: Everard ]

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RickyB
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What off-ornery action? If you're asking us to adjudicate in some way, we need the facts. Or was I sleeping again? <pulls woollen cap off head, revealing a thick mess of not much at all... [Frown] >
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Everard
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I was suspended for an email I sent to the mods, after they posted that the next person who posted the word "lie" would be suspended, in which I didn't very politely tell them what I thought of them making rules up on the spot...since until that point, lie had been an acceptable part of the ornery vocabulary.

Which brings me to drake's post on this page:

"Don't ever use the words dirty, slimy, liar, asshole, cocksucker, or son-of-a-bitch to describe your fellow contributors."

Or any other word that you may or may not know in advance is a "banned" word, regardless of its previous status as an acceptable word... because as it stands, javelin feels it is his right to change the rules of ornery in order to act "in the best interests of the forum,".... which is not the mandate given to him by what we, as ordinary memebrs, can see, from the information about how moderation is to occur on ornery.

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kenmeer livermaile
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Oh dear Mods: we beseech thee. Wade with us in the ego-sodden muck here, and tell us if thou didst or didstn't do this horrible thing Everard claims.

Didst thou indeed do as Everard says? I seek to verify what is claimed here: "I was, by the admission of the mods, suspended for off-ornery actions".

Not that it would bother me if they did, mind you. Someone called me a liar on my private line, I'd probably use my connections with the police to gove them a bad day too. Dish it out, expect it back. DOn't expect folks to play 'fair' when you're pissing on their ankles.

Just because it's in private doesn't mean it isn't rude. Everard here adopts the sasme 'high ground' the Bush administration recently claimed by insisting that the definition of 'torture' be redefined, so they might know how much of a jerk they might be without being penalized. Those of us who claimed that a vague definition of torture would be more effective than a 'toe the line' precisiion seem to be vindicated here?

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Redskullvw
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KE

I still don't know how I offended you. I am sorry if I did. And I am over whatever caused it.

Liberal

Not only do I not lump all Palestinians into a "sub-human" category worthy of genocide, but I strongly support harsh diplomatic solutions to solve the conflict before the window of opportunity to do so closes permanently. I would love a Palestinian state that is stable and peacefully prosperous. That is my goal, and I have offered multiple solutions that might assure this. However, I see that diplomacy seems to not be a Palestinian, or for that matter a general priority for Arab leadership. They instead have escalated, expanded, and supported state violence of such a progression that the end result will be a point where, short of using the threat of a nuclear weapon, Israel and Europe will become indefensible.

My argument is in real simple terms, give the Arab leaderships every peaceful advantage they want and need right now, or, we will find ourselves facing an Arab leadership willing to take whatever they want by force. If the later shall happen, our options are surrender to their violence, or use violence of our own. In my view, we would not be able to conduct 13 separate Iraq style conventional invasions and occupations, leaving essentially one option, nuclear threat.

So when I say just turn it into a glass parking lot, I'm being pessimistic and seeing that the end result may already be doomed upon us.

So lay off the Redskull is a racist genocidal monster crap. I am sick of it. Because when it comes to solutions, I think I have offered multiple possible futures where everyone is peaceful and happy, but my solutions take tough realistic and enforce diplomacy. Something that the diplomats of the world seem unwilling to do. Their failure to do so will lead to war.

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Dave at Work
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quote:
pickled shuttlecock said:
I get the feeling that this site is Orson Scott Card's Star Wars Holiday Special.

I remember seeing that back in '78 or '79 or whenever it was that it was originally aired. Talk about a blast from the past.

Now back to your regularly schedualed and often redirected thread.

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kenmeer livermaile
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" a) I get the feeling that this site is Orson Scott Card's Star Wars Holiday Special.

b) I remember seeing that back in '78 or '79 or whenever it was that it was originally aired. Talk about a blast from the past."

Loved The Muppets-as-Buggers sing-along...

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