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Author Topic: Democratic solution to the mod problem...
Liberal
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Given that we all appreciate the democratic process here at Ornery, and that we are used to living in a state where the electorate sometimes has to push and shove just to get at the truth (bi-partisan problem!) and then do something about it, I propose we handle the mod problem democratically.

At the risk of having this sound like survivor or some other reality TV show, I will justify it by saying we should have the choice of whether we want to be moderated by a proven liar and power-abuser, as well as the question of whether we want to continue to be moderated in secret by someone taken from our midst even though the result of that policy is now before us.

Please do not respond by belittling this, Ornery is a great place and it is sad to see the trust placed in the mods betrayed.


Signal your votes to each question by Yes or No.

1. Should Javelin resign for his lie that he was not the moderator and for using his power to intimidate posters he disagreed with?

2. Should the other ornery mod reveal their identity given what happened with javelin?

3. Should any future moderator of ornery keep their identity a secret if they are also a poster here?

[ October 26, 2006, 11:50 PM: Message edited by: Liberal ]

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The Drake
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Abstain.
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Kent
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I boycott such an action. Grow up people or start your own forums.
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0Megabyte
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1.) I don't think so. I have heard enough different views of the situation that I am uncertain what happened, so I will not make a judgement, other than seeing that obviously things have gotten emotional, and feelings have been hurt. I don't know enough, nor will I judge anyone at this point. Also, the whole anonymity thing would require you to not show who you are, if that's the goal. I do not believe that saying he was not the moderator was anything other than sensible since the entire goal was for the moderator to be anonymous. the moderator should be fair, and act in a responsible manner, and when it isn't known he's the moderator, should take that into account.

... but this place DOES have its bit of ill feelings, insults, and vitriol. Granted, it's the most civilized place I've found on the internet, but we're still human, and even I've been warned a few times by the Mod for a few... times I said something that seemed inappropriate. I love this board, and though I'm not the best poster, and my knowledge isn't nearly as great as many of the others, it's in a way my home, and you guys are in a way a form of family to me. Or at least as close as that comes on the internet.

2.) On the one hand, it might be useful, especially if you DO feel the mod having a lack of impartiality. Yet there's the danger in this, that if the mod is known, and they make a hard decision, they will get flack that I don't know that they should get.

3.) It might be wise to stay a secret. However, in this place, the unmasking is inevitable, as we're quite inquisitive, very ornery and have with us some of the best minds that I've ever seen. It won't last forever. But it might be good.

I don't remember much about the complains about msquared besides the Ornery 8 incident, which caused negative feelings all around and whose fallout is still being felt here and now, but I have a feeling that whatever decisions the Mods make, somebody will eventually get angry, and feel they were wronged.

This does not mean it's okay for them to do wrong, as it is not, and they need to know this. But I'll have to think about whether it's wise for us to have the power to oust a mod because his decisions are unpopular.

Perhaps we could have term limits, though...

However, I am uncertain as to how the Cards (or whoever) choose moderators. It's really up to them.

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LetterRip
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Liberal,

quote:
Should Javelin resign for his lie that he was not the moderator and for using his power to intimidate posters he disagreed with?
First half - while I don't much care for misleading or false statements, i don't think they are that terrible if they are used in regard to information that we have no legitimate right to know.

Second half - is that speculation or fact? If fact I would need specific facts to form an opinion of such a claim.

2 - provide a link regarding 'what happened'? I vaguely recall a thread where Ev accused Jav. of lying about his status as OM. Not sure why it should impact whether the Ornery Mod should reveal their identity.

3 - well I'm of two minds on that - we are a rather unruly bunch and many are apt to see sinister motive whether the OM is known or unknown. Personally I think msquared was better able to carry out his OM dutys when his OM persona was not widely known. Also known mods seem to get stressed more. However sekrut mods seems to be a major rub for a number of forum members.

Really I don't think it should be a 'democratic decision' - this is the OSCs site, he has entrusted the care and moderation of the site to them, so instead of worrying about the mods, just try and engage in fruitful discussion and make a genuine effort to ensure they are unneeded.

LetterRip

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pickled shuttlecock
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quote:
Originally posted by Liberal:
Please do not respond by belittling this, Ornery is a great place and it is sad to see the trust placed in the mods betrayed.

Sorry - I got stuck when this non-sequitur threw a SemanticErrorException and aborted my parser.

I'm a little concerned that you're so hell-bent on portraying OM#1 as a "proven liar and power-abuser" when no such thing has been proven - especially since OM#2 has stated that he or she moderated the discussion in question. Not that it's proof otherwise, but it is a perfectly valid competing explanation, the existence of which nullifies any claim you have to "proof."

You will please note that I'm not belittling. I'm just laying a little smackdown on the "logic" that you've motivated this thread with.

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kenmeer livermaile
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Stuff you're doing right now is how Lenin's gang gave Marx a bad name, Lib.

Not to mention that you haven't convinced me in the slightest that you know who mod is or that mod is a proven anything. (I personaly think mod is an artifically intelligent sentience formed when ms spilled a bottle of Green River soda on his external modem while ms was diggin' some porn and trying to switch hands without missing a stroke.)

You're giving the place a bad name and invoking an old horror: lynch mobs.

And who, I repeat who, said Ornery is a friggin' democracy? It's a private web site provided by a guy named Orson. His columns drive me nuts; his books are pretty good; and he lets us play here for free.

Vive le roi! I says.

[ October 27, 2006, 01:46 AM: Message edited by: kenmeer livermaile ]

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The Drake
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>Vive le roi! I says.

Power to the oligarchy!

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Liberal
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Look at you all, its acceptable to you to lie and to wreck this great community in the name of "order." Take a look at yourselves and realize ornery was a great, open and honest place until now. Now the very core of ornery is enshrined within a lie. There is almost no point anymore in ever referring anything to the mods again, they are a known value of something that was unknown and was being BASED on that unknown (everyone argued the mods needed anonymity to moderate well and now its partially blown, there is nowhere to go but downhill).

Power corrupts and absolute... well I will always believe that.

In any case, I have clearly overstayed my welcome. I have no business being in a place where people eagerly line up to collaborate with guile and deception, where dishonesty is given a noble purpose and personal vendettas are earnestly defended as meting out justice.

For what it's worth: Adieu to the ornery that was worth our time and wonderment, and woe to silly parlor game its become.

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pickled shuttlecock
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Don't fall on the same sword Pelegius did - you're bound to get an infection.
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DaveS
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Moderators are the third rail of debate, so don't go near them unless you have to. Ignore the mods, full speed ahead.
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msquared
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This is not a democracy. And yes I am biased in my opinion.

msquared

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LinuxFreakus
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From what I've read, based on the facts laid out, I dont know if there is any way to prove this case. Clearly this is not a democracy either.

1) I don't think that wanting to keep one's mod status anonymous is wrong, and since we can't even really prove that javelin is a mod (unless there is more to the story than what I've read) then I think calling for the moderator to resign or get suspended is a little premature.

2) No, the mod(s) should remain anonymous, I think it is better that way.

3) Yes, I think it is best to keep the identity masked as much as possible.

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winkey151
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quote:
Originally posted by LinuxFreakus:
From what I've read, based on the facts laid out, I dont know if there is any way to prove this case. Clearly this is not a democracy either.

1) I don't think that wanting to keep one's mod status anonymous is wrong, and since we can't even really prove that javelin is a mod (unless there is more to the story than what I've read) then I think calling for the moderator to resign or get suspended is a little premature.

2) No, the mod(s) should remain anonymous, I think it is better that way.

3) Yes, I think it is best to keep the identity masked as much as possible.

I agree... (Even thought it is probably not a good idea to be in agreement with me.)

This is a private message board. No one is paying to post here (as far as I know) and whoever is paying for this site to be up should have full rights to use whoever they want to run the board.

As for keeping Mods identities masked. I have always thought that it was a good idea. Unless a Mod is able to have two screen names so that they have the same freedoms to post as all the other members, without having their status brought up.

I have actually seen more harm being inflicted toward the Mods on most boards I have been on, than Mods ever do to the other members. (Most of which you will never see on the board because it is done in private messages.)

Also... Mods give up a good amount of their time for free and put up with a lot of crap and I think that there should be some perks for their troubles.

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Redskullvw
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Liberal,

You come to this proposal with at the very least, unclean hands. There have been a couple of recent threads where your arguments have been soundly destroyed. To ascribe such destruction to the Moderators wielding power in an over the top and biased manner sounds to me like a toddler blaming his parent for a broken toy.

Mods should be largely unknown, and should intervene swiftly in clear cut cases, and err on the side of poster's reputations in cases where things are not as clear cut. My problem with the Mods, especially during their early tenure, was that they were neither ruthless nor consistent enough.

I still have that opinion. But not everyone agrees with my absolutist approach. I do see improvement, and the fact that no one else has publicly advocated their removal recently tends to support the idea that they have at least performed well enough to be ignored by the membership as a pressing issue. So while my personal view over the Mods still sits on the table, I can assure you of a few things. First, neither has abused their power since both seem rather timid in using the power in the first place. Second, there has not been a series of threads where things got so ugly that members wondered publicly why something has not been done. And third, even if the identity of current Mods is known, I have seen no one except two people attempt to make an issue out of it.

Fact is we do not choose the Mods on Ornery. We may collectively control the general tenor of commentary, but since Mods became a reality, only the Mod has final control. Knowing who the Mods are is important if and only if an argument passes the point of civility, and revealing a Mod's real persona might restore some semblance of dialogue. Otherwise, who is or is not the Mod should matter to none of us.

I have a feeling that if your personal presentations of your arguments improved in terms of logic, civility, and factual backing, your recent issues with members and the Mods would vanish. We don't need a democratic solution to solve your perceived problem. You can solve your own problem. Hopefully you will because you bring some strong ideas to the debate, and force those who oppose you to work harder in defense of their own views.

My advice, ignore the Mods. Work on your presentation and preparation.

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Mormegil
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I have a life, so I don't read every post on every thread, although I do read a fair amount of Ornery. Why not link to the post(s) in question, if you want opinions?

I know Javelin was accused of being the mod, but where was it proven? And how about another post where he denied it?

If it's true that Javelin is one of the mods, and that he lied and said he wasn't, then I've lost respect for him. I don't like having secret mods, but I *detest* liars. And people in positions of power have even more responsibility to not lie, as opposed to getting more of a free pass.

However, Ornery isn't a democracy, and I don't have a problem with it not being one.

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DaveS
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Lib, I don't agree with all of your views, but I appreciate that you give topics hard thinking to see multiple sides. No serious pun intended, but I hope you can moderate your outrage on this issue.
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kenmeer livermaile
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How can a Mod remain secret if Mod doesn't lie when asked if Mod is Mod?
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Dave at Work
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quote:
Stuff you're doing right now is how Lenin's gang gave Marx a bad name, Lib.

Not to mention that you haven't convinced me in the slightest that you know who mod is or that mod is a proven anything. (I personaly think mod is an artifically intelligent sentience formed when ms spilled a bottle of Green River soda on his external modem while ms was diggin' some porn and trying to switch hands without missing a stroke.)

You're giving the place a bad name and invoking an old horror: lynch mobs.

And who, I repeat who, said Ornery is a friggin' democracy? It's a private web site provided by a guy named Orson. His columns drive me nuts; his books are pretty good; and he lets us play here for free.

Vive le roi! I says.

Here is a first. I not only agree with something kenmeer said, but I also want to paise it. Every one should read it and think on it for at least a few minutes. I only disagree with the comment about his columns. They make me think even when I don't agree with them.

Vive le roi!

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Colin JM0397
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Lib, seems to me you are falling victim to the same logic you use often - you have an absolute belief in the righteousness of your position, therefore anyone opposed to your positions must be wrong.

You disagree with the way the site is moderated, therefore the mods must be wrong.

However, as you read through the posts on this thread, I hope it gets through to you that, whatever the truth is in your world, the rest of us do not have to accept it; but we do listen to it - that's the beauty of Ornery. By not accepting your truth, we are not conceding that you get to be "right" and we get to be "wrong", merely that we feel differently about things.

When it comes to opinions of the political nature, there really are no right and wrongs, just a whole lot of different flavors. Some are tasty and some are quite disgusting. If you'd quit worrying so much about being right, which makes others wrong, I suspect you'll find you can really spread your wings and fly, instead of pecking away at the dirt looking for grubs.

Happy flying to you.

[ October 27, 2006, 12:04 PM: Message edited by: jm0397 ]

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kenmeer livermaile
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"I only disagree with the comment about his columns. They make me think even when I don't agree with them."

That's true. They do stir intellectual controversy.

So you agree that O&M Mod is an artificial sentience born of an autoerotic accident between ms and his modem? [Wink]

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Dave at Work
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quote:
So you agree that O&M Mod is an artificial sentience born of an autoerotic accident between ms and his modem? [Wink]
Could have been his router, but essentially yes [Big Grin] .
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kenmeer livermaile
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Router? Now we have no way of knowing who the 'mother' is.
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Dave at Work
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Clearly the Internet is the 'mother' [Wink] .
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DonaldD
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Since Liberal used the word "lie", does that mean he gets suspended? [Razz]
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TomDavidson
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Here's my two cents:

I don't like anonymous moderators. I don't think the mods should feel like members of the community, and shouldn't expect to be able to engage in the same level of discourse that an "average" member can. That's the price of being a mod; it's part of being trusted.

I also don't like multiple moderators. Any site I've ever been with more than one active moderator (as opposed to, say, a site with one active mod and a bunch of backups) has eventually imploded.

I'm also incredibly uncomfortable with the thought that someone might have flat-out lied about their mod status. It's completely understandable, of course; if you make the decision to have anonymous mods who also have user accounts, sooner or later the actual mod is going to get confronted and will have to decide whether to lie or to fess up. But I don't think it's excusable; it's just one of the many minor moral dilemmas created by an anonymous moderator who also posts.

One of the reasons I haven't been on Ornery much lately is that I simply don't have any faith in its current administration. How can I, when I have no idea who they are?

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Kent
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Seriously, nobody is shutting down discussion. Mods only shut down shrillness. Why the worry about pushing the envelope?

CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG?

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kenmeer livermaile
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"Clearly the Internet is the 'mother'"

O&M then are like unto the BORG. Hive-minded.

Don't you just love a good data buzz....?

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Mormegil
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quote:
How can a Mod remain secret if Mod doesn't lie when asked if Mod is Mod?
I don't know. Refuse to answer at all?

Or maybe there is no way. Your question assumes that maintaining anonymity was the sine qua non here, instead of maintaining integrity. I think just the opposite.

And that's not just because I didn't approve of the anonymity in the first place. There are lots of things I like to keep secret. You know how often I have to lie about them? Never.

Good post by TomDavidson, by the way.

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Dave at Work
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quote:
O&M then are like unto the BORG. Hive-minded.

Don't you just love a good data buzz....?

I think that being part of a hive mind would be really weird, but then I suppose that if I was part of a hive mind I would probably find it perfectly natural. I've never had a data buzz, good or otherwise. I am chasing a caffeine buzz right now though. [Smile]
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kenmeer livermaile
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"Your question assumes that maintaining anonymity was the sine qua non here, instead of maintaining integrity."

It reflects that Mods have chsen to work that way, something I thik is wise. Once one knows who MOd is, one can lobby them. In this circumstance, lobby also means torture.

But I honestly haven't a ghost of a clue for a good reason for folks to give a shyte about who or what Mods are.

Things either work or they don't.

We COULD have a democratic forum, one subject to intitatives and alla that.

Woud we ever get to talk about things just for the sake of talk? Or would we become political animals? Doctors of spin?

I am grateful we have Mods to assume the role of maintaining order, if only so that we can pretend order is maintasined thereby and then get on with our business.

It's like anarchy via totalitarianism. A dream come true.

And, best of all, we can gripe about it all we want!

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MattP
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quote:
Originally posted by kenmeer livermaile:
How can a Mod remain secret if Mod doesn't lie when asked if Mod is Mod?

Perhaps that's why they tried to make accusation of lying a bannable offense?
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LoverOfJoy
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quote:
I don't like anonymous moderators. I don't think the mods should feel like members of the community, and shouldn't expect to be able to engage in the same level of discourse that an "average" member can. That's the price of being a mod; it's part of being trusted.
I don't think that's a price we should be willing to ask anyone here to pay. Unless Card decides to pay for a moderator (isn't going to happen) he will only be able to get a moderator who serves simply because he/she values the place so much.

We COULD go back to having no moderator at all although that's not without problems either.

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KnightEnder
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DaveS,

Hard to avoid the third rail when you are blindfolded and there are hundreds of rails you must walk across.

KE

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Jesse
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I've never been contacted by a mod that I can recall, since I first logged on here. I've never contacted a mod about anyone else.

That being said...

Lying about being the Mod, if such a thing happened, is slimy and should be appologized for. "Don't Answer" is a perfectly valid option, especially since I remember many posters jokingly claiming to be one of the new mods when the change was announced.

Liberal-

This isn't your press. It's OSC's. His house, his rules, his enforcement.

I don't want to be the mod, and neither does anyone else in their right mind, but we need one. Someone has to delete the spam and suspend or ban jerks and so on.

So, we wind up with mods who aren't in their right minds. It's the best we can do.

From what I've seen, there is less of the "Believe whoever tattled first" dynamic, and I think that's a good thing.

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Gaoics79
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quote:
Look at you all, its acceptable to you to lie and to wreck this great community in the name of "order." Take a look at yourselves and realize ornery was a great, open and honest place until now. Now the very core of ornery is enshrined within a lie. There is almost no point anymore in ever referring anything to the mods again, they are a known value of something that was unknown and was being BASED on that unknown (everyone argued the mods needed anonymity to moderate well and now its partially blown, there is nowhere to go but downhill).
Bahhh... go back to Russia.
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MattP
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And what of the current situation where one of the mods isn't really anonymous anymore? Is that mod going to resign his post, officially "come out", or continue to pretend that he's not a mod? If he can continue to be an effective mod (assuming he's an effective mod) now that he's been outed, does that change anything?
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pickled shuttlecock
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quote:
Originally posted by Jesse:
This isn't your press. It's OSC's. His house, his rules, his enforcement.

Exactly. And that being said, I have a very hard time taking seriously any argument about whether moderators should be anonymous that appeals to morality. This one principle trumps it all.
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kenmeer livermaile
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Wow. It's good to be King; it's bad to be Mod.

May I never be crazy ernough to accept if ever asked (and may the Cards never be so crazy as to ask me).

There. I feel better already.

Uh, by the way, anyone know what all the fuss is about? Mods work for NSA or a major credit burau or the mob or something?

Last I heard, they just Barney Fifed a buncha talky opinionated nerds like me.

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Daruma28
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quote:
Originally posted by Liberal:
Look at you all, its acceptable to you to lie and to wreck this great community in the name of "order." Take a look at yourselves and realize ornery was a great, open and honest place until now. Now the very core of ornery is enshrined within a lie. There is almost no point anymore in ever referring anything to the mods again, they are a known value of something that was unknown and was being BASED on that unknown (everyone argued the mods needed anonymity to moderate well and now its partially blown, there is nowhere to go but downhill).

Power corrupts and absolute... well I will always believe that.

In any case, I have clearly overstayed my welcome. I have no business being in a place where people eagerly line up to collaborate with guile and deception, where dishonesty is given a noble purpose and personal vendettas are earnestly defended as meting out justice.

For what it's worth: Adieu to the ornery that was worth our time and wonderment, and woe to silly parlor game its become.

Liberal, you only started become an active participant here since May of this year...what do you know about "what this place used to be?"

As for "adieu to silly parlor game it's become," it's threads like this that contribute to that far more than any percieved injustice you want to rant on about. Trying to foment a forum revolution and overthrow the current moderators is about as silly a parlor game as it gets.

Ornery is enshrined in a lie? How so?

When the transfer of OM happened, our former Moderator clearly told us that there would be two Mods who are current members and they will remain anonymous.

That was the policy established, and they have strove to maintain that policy. That's as honest as it gets. Just because you and others sought to try and abrogate that policy (the anonymity of the mods) and perhaps one or the other denied being a mod doesn't mean this place is enshrined in a lie at all.

If you are a CIA operative in the field, undercover in hostile territory, it is your duty to "lie" about being an agent.

Same goes here. If the policy is that Mods are to remain anonymous, and you ask one point blank if he or she is one, it is their DUTY to maintain the honesty of the forum policy (that the mods are to remain anonymous) to deny it.

Get over yourself, this thread is as absurd as it gets. What's next? A demonstration march on OSC's doorstep with protest signs against OrneryModHitler? Camping out in the ditch on the road leading up to OSC's house, demanding to meet with him to discuss the illegal and immoral moderation here on Ornery? [LOL]

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