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0Megabyte
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Well, my first semester at a big universtiy isn't going quite as well as I'd hoped.

Particularly with one class, I've done so badly that, even though I deeply love the subject, I'm considering withdrawing.

I've actually gotten to the point where I don't attend the class due to my deep frustrations and inability to deal with the assignments.

I feel terrible about it, but I'm finding that unless I find a way to change it, I'm going to have to. (The class is Japanese language. This is my first semester with this teacher, in this program, and it's so different from my previous program that from the beginning I did not know what they elarned, as I learned different things, and... I've simply been unable to catch up. I think I'm even farther behind them now than when I started.)

So. What's the Ornery opinion about withdrawing from the class? What's worse is that I paid for the damn thing...

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Mormegil
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Why continue and fail it? Withdraw, catch your breath, take it again. Perhaps with a different professor or course materials?
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canadian
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Good for you, son!

The world needs more quitters!

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Clark
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I've done the whole "stay in the class and fail it" thing. It's better to run away and life to fight another day than it is to fail the class. My university had a deadline where you could withdraw from a class and it would be like you never even signed up in the first place. Completely forgotten. But that was only like 2 weeks into the semester. There was a later "unofficial withdrawl" deadline where it would leave a mark on your record. Your decision might be influenced by your universities policy in that regard.
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0Megabyte
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Well, until November 10th, I can withdraw and get a "W" grade which does not affect my GPA at all. It's as if I never took it. Or at least, there's no grade for it.

Alright, I'll do it. My teacher just sent me an email showing her concern about me and so forth. I feel really bad, as I like the teacher, I DO enjoy the material. If I could just catch up with everything I'd probably love it. And she's even a very forgiving teacher.

But even so. All my grades are terrible there. I don't want to fail. But I'll feel sad at the same time, as I'll miss the teacher and the other students, as they're the only other people in this school that I've had any luck talking to.

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LinuxFreakus
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Seems like you already realize the prudent choice would be to withdraw.
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0Megabyte
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Yeah. IT IS the prudent choice. But it's the first time I've ever done such a thing.

And I just feel bad. Shame, really. Especially if I see the teacher again. But... it's what must be done.

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Daruma28
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0MB, realize that studying a foreign language, especially one like Japanese that is entirely different from English (Romance Language vs. Pictogram based Characters) requires as complete immersion as possible - i.e. you need to get a tutor, join conversational groups and start watching Japanese movies and TV as much as possible.

Skipping class is just about the worst thing you can do. If you find yourself skipping class already, it is most definitely time to withdraw.

Just understand what you are getting into the next time you register for another foreign language class (most likely required for you to graduate, right?).

Another suggestion is this: if your Univeristy/College has it, perhaps you could take your language classes during summer school where you could simply focus on only the language classes with no other classes competing for your study time.

Just some advice from someone who's been there and done that...I too withdrew from my language class my freshmen year in college. I took the 100 level course again for Summer school, and found it much easier to then "get on track" and proceed to the higher level courses after having that solid foundation of intensive immersion during the summer session.

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0Megabyte
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As it was, I've taken three years of Japanese in high school, (including a year of that as my only class in high school, as I was at college getting my A.A. degree, which I now have sitting pretty on top of my computer desk. It warms my heart to see it.)

I know the troubles of learning japanese, defintely. I also understand the whole immersion thing... and I plan on doing it, when I'm able. This is merely a strategic withdrawal, not in any way a surrender. I'll learn the damn language if it's the last thing I do.

But luckily for me, as I'm officially a transfer student, foreign langauges aren't required classes for me!

Though... Greek and Latin look so... tempting.

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Richard Dey
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O'Meg:

Remember, it is never-ever the fault of the student; it is always the fault of the teacher. It is always the boss's fault, the generals are always to blame, and that's coming from the mouth of King Richard the Warlord [Wink] !

Latin and classical Greek, IMHO, should be taken TOGETHER, slowly, with somebody who has a humongous, daunting English vocabulary who connects puer, pueri to purile and psyscho with psychotic. Reading Caesar is fine for introducing the French to Latin, but not good for introducing English-speakers to it. I would say there is not presently a good Greco-Latin introductory course in print and, if I had another ten years to live, I'd do one. The declensions and conjugations can be learnt together.

Having gender is a continental conceit that has left all but English in the dust. Gender exemplifies why the Anglo-Americans have won civilization. Just learning the declensions (and their i-stems) and the conjugations (of tense) are a pain, not to mention the simple rules by which one can eventually deconstruct almost any sentence in latin or greek.

But ultimately, learning latin and greek will be valuable to expanding your vocabulary ... in the wrong direction, towards Spanish, Italian, French, and Roumanian!

Myself? I far prefer the Germanic languages, and, if you haven't noticed, pick an Anglo-Saxon, Friesian, Dutch, or even a Scots word over the foreign languages I've studied formally! At some point, I simply balked at words ending in vowels. To English-speaking men it is foreignesque.

It has been a long, long time since knowing Latin increased one's ability to communicate and knowing French gave one an aura of sophistication or les aires distingue. Greek, Latin, and French now owe to English their worldliness -- and the French really ought to face that fact.

Gosh! If a foreign language is not required for your degree, find a byte course that introduces you to Indo-European! That will widen your vocabulary just by comparative method -- and it has the added advantage that you'll never be sitting in an Indo-European restaurant having the waiter insulting you in it ... right to your frigging face as if you didn't know what merde meant [Mad] .

In any event, if you aren't a Yankee and have to be polite to the Que'becois or Hispanics to be polite to the invaders, don't take French or Spanish or anything like it! That's not our job.

If you want to be useful, take Arabic! The alphabet, like our own, is used to write many languages. It has a rather neat system to develop words. I don't know where this came from, but it's used for The Boner Boys in Boneraq and The Boner Boys in Bonerabia, etc. One can get the gist in Arabic after one has memorized the 1000-plus word-keys. They're numbered!

la = no
na’am = yes
Maktaba = library
karib = boat
masttar = airport
darraja = bicycle
haris = guard
pilot = mallah
maQhaa = cafe; ma’Tam = restaurant
madrasah, madaaris = school, -s (elementary to high school only)
Maktabah = library is feminine of maktab = office (makaatib plural)
sayyarah = car, automobile
Taa’irah = aeroplane
suuQ = market, plural irregular aswaaQ; also a verb
taariiX = history
fiizyaa’ = physics
kiimyaa’= chemistry
riyaaDiyyaat = mathematics

nouns which function as a concept are defined with "al-

al-jabr = algebra
RiyaaDah = sports
'I'm for science, i.e., "logy" andijtimaa means "gathering”
k-b-r 947 to be older, esteemed, big, great, large, famous, admired (kabîr, 'akbar, takbîr)
a-b 2 father, ancestor, forefather (ab, abû)
'a-b-d 685 to serve, worship, be devote to, show veneration ('abd, 'ibâda, ma'bûd)
'a-d-l 696 to act justly, equitably or to make straight, set in order ('adl, a'dâla, ta'dîl)
'a-d-m 698 to be non-existent, disappeared, destroyed, devoid of ('adam, 'adîm)
'a-f-w 731 to be obliterated, effaced, eliminated (al-'afûw, 'afwîya, 'afâ', isit'fâ', 'âfin, mu'fan)
a-h-d 7 to unify, be one (al-ahad, ahadîya, uhâdî)
a-kh-r 9 to postpone, defer, be last, final, ultimate (al-âkhir, âkhar, ukhrâ, ta'khîr, mu'akhkhara)
a-l-h 30 to adore, deify, turn to another with intense feeling (ilâh, ilâhî)
'a-l-m 743 to know, have knowledge, be informed, teach, notify (al-'alîm, 'ilm, 'ilmiya, 'allam, u'lûma)
a-m-l 35 to hope, to look attentively, meditate, consider (amal, âmâl, âmil, muta'ammil)
a-n-s 38 to be familiar, friendly, sociable (uns, insî, ins, anîs)
'a-q-d 734 to tie, knit, make a knot, put together, join ('aqd, 'aqîda)
'a-q-l 737 to have the faculty of reasoning, comprehension ('aql, 'aqlî)
'a-r-f 708 to know, to perceive, discover, to announce ('arîf, 'irfân, ma'rîfa, ta'rîf, ma'rûf))
'a-s-m 722 to hold back, restrain, preserve, to take refuge, guard ( 'asama, 'isâmî)
'a-z-m 729 to be great, powerful, mighty (a'zam, al-'azîm, 'izâmî, 'azîma)
'a-z-z 712 to be strong, powerful, respected, to fortify, strengthen (al-'azîz, 'izz, ta'zîz, ma'azza)
b-d-' 57 to introduce, originate, start, do for the first time (al mubdi', bdi', badî'a, abda', ibtidâ')
b-q-y 84 to remain, continue, endure, be ever-lasting ( al- baqî', baqâ', abqâ, bâqin)
d-a'-â 326 to call, summon, appeal to, invite, invoke (du'â, da'wa)
d-â-n 352 to be indebted, to owe, to be subject (dîn, diyâna)
dh-k-r 358 to remember, recollect, bear in mind (dhikr, tadhkâr, dhâkira)
d-w-n 350 to record, write down, enter, collect (dîwân)
f-l-q 851 to split open, cleave, tear asunder, burst (falq, falaq)
f-n-y 854 to wane, dwindle, recede, come to an end, cease to exist (fanâ', fânin)
f-q-h 847 to understand, comprehend or to teach, instruct (fiqh)
f-t-h 811 to open, unlock, reveal, conquer ( fattâh, mifatâh, miftâhî, al-fâtiha)
gh-f-r 793 to cover, hide, forgive, guard, protect (al-ghafûr, 'astaghfirullâh)
gh-n-y 803 to be rich, wealthy, free or to sing praises, extol (ghanâ', istighnâ' )
gh-s-l 788 to wash, clean, cleanse, purge (ghusl)
h-â-l 251 to change, be transformed, become, to be transferred (hâla, tahwîl, ihâla)
h-a-t 249 to guard, protect, encircle, encompass, surround (ihâta, muhît)
h-b-b 179 to love, to endear, to make dear, to like, to prefer (hubb, habîb, mahbûb)
h-b-l 182 to catch, ensnare, or to be pregnant (habîl, habila, hublâ)
h-f-z 220 to protect, guard, preserve, take care of (hafîz, tahfîz)
h-m-d 238 to praise, commend, laud, extol (hamîd, mahmûd, muhammad, al-hamdulillâh))
h-m-l 240 to carry, bear, lift, take along, transport, convert, bring around (hamîla, haml)
h-m-s 239 to be zealous, ardent, enthusiastic, excited (hamâs, tahammus)
h-q-q 224 to be true, right, correct (al-haqq, haqîq, tahqîq)
h-s-d 207 to envy, to be envious ( hâsid)
h-s-n 208 to be beautiful, lovely. fine, proper (husnâ, hasan)
h-s-n 214 to fortify, be accessible, to be chaste, pure (ihsân hasâna)
h-y-y 256 to live, to exist (al-hayy, tahîya, ihyâ', hayâh, hayya)
j-â-' 177 to come, to get to, reach, arrive, set forth, set out to do (jai'a, majî', jâ'iât)
j-â-d 172 to be good, to improve, to be skilled, proficient (jûd, tajwîd, jayyid)
j-â-l 176 to roam, wander, move freely, circulate (jawwâl, tajwâl, majâl))
j-h-d 168 to struggle, endeavor, strive, labor, strain, fight jihâd, majhûd, ijtihâd
j-n-n 164 to hide, conceal, put under cover (janna, junna, junûn, jinn, jinnî)
j-w-d 173 to be good, be better, to grant generously, liberally (jûd, jayyid, jawâd, tajwîd)
k-b-r 947 to be older, esteemed, big, great, large, famous, admired (kabîr, 'akbar, takbîr)
k-f-â 977 to be enough, sufficient, to meet all needs (kifâya, iktifâ', mukâfâh)
k-l-m 981 to speak, talk, converse, express (kalima, kalâm)
k-m-l 984 to be whole, complete, perfect, finished (kamâl, kâmil, kamâla, takmîl, ikmâ, istikmâll)
k-s-b 966 to earn, acquire, win, gather, attain (kâsib, iktisâb)
k-w-n 993 to be, exist, happen, take place or make, create, bring forth (yakûn, kiyân, kaun)
kh-l-f 297 to be a successor, take the place of, substitute or to differ, argue (khalîfa)
kh-l-s 294 to be pure, refined, purged, free, liberated, redeemed, sincere (ikhlâs, takhlîs)
kh-l-q 299 to create, make, originate, form, mold (khulq, khulqî, khalîq, ya-khâliq)
l-h-b 1032 to flame, burn, blaze, kindle, excite (iltihâb, lahab)
l-t-f 1018 to be kind, friendly, amicable, benevolent (latîf)
m-l-k 1081 to possess, rule, own, have dominion over (mâlik, malîk)
m-r-' 1058 to be wholesome, healthy, manly (imra', marî')
m-s-h 1064 anoint, rub, wipe off, stroke with hand (masîhî)
m-w-l 1093 the have wealth, to become rich, finance something (mâl, amwâl)
n-d-r 1118 to dedicate, consecrate, vow, notify, warn (nadîr, indâr, mandûr)
n-f-k 1152 to blow, puff, breathe, inflate (nafk, manfûk)
n-s-r 1138 to help, aid, assist, defend, protect (nasîr, mansûr)
n-s-y 1130 to forget, neglect, omit (nasy, mansîy)
n-w-r 1182 to illuminate, light, enlighten, to clarify, be revealed, disclosed (nârî, nûr, munîr, munawwar)
n-z-l 1122 to come down, descend, reveal (tanzîl, nazîl)
n-z-m 1147 to arrange, put in order, determine the details of something (nizâm, munazzam
q-â-m 934 to rise up, get up, ascend, to begin, to remain, to exist (al-qayyûm, qiyâm, maqâm, qâ'im)
r-â-d 425 to walk about, prowl, search, seek (irâda, murîd)
r-b-b 370 to bring up, to foster, to nourish, a master, lord, owner (rabb)
r-h-m 384 womb, kinship, mercy, compassion (al-rahmân, al-rahîm)
r-sh-d 395 to be on the right track, rightly guided (murshid, irshâd, rashâd, rashîd)
r-z-q 389 to provide, supply, grant means of subsistence (al-razzâq, rizq, marzûq, murtazak)
s-b-h 457 to glorify, praise, to be swimming in (subhan allâh, tasbîh)
s-b-r 585 to be patient, to make durable (al-sabûr, sabbâr, asbar, musâbara, istibâr)
s-l-m 495 to be safe, secure, protected, to surrender, to submit (al-salâm, islâm, salîm, muslim)
s-m-d 613 to be unaffected, or turn to someone or to resist, oppose (al-samad)
s-m-' 501 to hear, to listen, pay attention, be told, hear about (al-samî', samâ')
sh-k-r 563 to thank, to be grateful, laud, offer thanks (al-shakûr)
sh-r-k 547 to share, become a partner, participant (shirk)
sh-r-q 546 to radiate, shine, beam, to rise like the sun (sharq)
sh-r-r 539 to be evil, bad, wicked (sharr, sharîr)
t-b-b 108 to perish, be destroyed, stabilized (tabban lahâ)
t-w-b 119 to turn toward, to repent, renounce (al-tawwâb)
w-b-l 1226 to be unwholesome, unhealthy, noxious, heavy rain (wabâl)
w-h-d 1236 to be one, unique, without equal (wahîd, wâhid)
w-k-l 1283 to entrust, assign, commission, empower (wakil, tawakkul)
w-l-d 1285 to give birth, make, create (walid, maulûd)
w-l-y 1288 to be near, close, friend, servant or defender, supporter, protector (walîy, wâlî, maulânâ)
w-s-w-s 1254 to whisper, to temp, to awaken doubts (waswâs)
y-d 1295 hand, handle, control, power (yad)
y-q-n 1298 to be certain, convinced, certitude (yaqan, yaqîn, mûqin)
z-h-r 682 to be visible, perceptible, manifest, distinct (al-zâhir)
z-l-m 681 to do wrong, treat unjustly or to grow dark, gloomy (zulm, zalâm)

Like that ...

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Richard Dey
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Take courage from Babur. He'd besiege a little town, fail, and withdraw, he'd a invade a little province and withdraw -- sometimes in panic. He couldn't even hold his own back yard! Then, at the Battle of Panipat, some mice stampeded some elephants or something, and he was Emperor of India! You need to be at the right place at the right time for something to happen. You may like this teacher, but that doesn't mean she knows how to teach you.
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Ikemook
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0Meg,

quote:
What's the Ornery opinion about withdrawing from the class?
Don't be afraid to withdraw if you have no other alternative, and won't pass the class. Just make certain that you can explain to a Graduate School director/interviewer/curious party why you withdrew. In your case, it might not be too bad, because they usually care more about your last two years and your upper division courses than your first year or so, as most people tend to foul up in their first year. I know that my first attempt at my language requirement was a 5-credit course. I got a C the first semester, and a D+ on the next one (in the followup course). My GPA was...low. For me, anyway.

As for withdrawls, I have two. One was in Introduction to Logic. It was my first and only semester as an RA, and the stress from the job and from my schoolwork was so great that I had severe sleep problems, which usually resulted in me not waking up in time for class. Or exams. I retook Intro to Logic next semester, and got a C+ or a B (can't remember).

My second withdraw was, ironically, in another philosophy course, Philosophy of Social Sciences. I honestly should have just dropped the course during Drop/Add, when I realized that it wouldn't be the kind of material I was hoping to cover. About halfway through, I realized that A) I wasn't going to be able to make it through the course, due to other courses, and B) my philosophy minor wasn't worth the effort, as my interests in no way matched those of the rest of the philosophy department and the courses they offered. So I dropped the minor and withdrew from the course. I'm honestly still kind of iffy on whether or not I should have just pushed through that, but what's done is done.

[Edited to add:] My point is that you shouldn't worry too much about explanable withdrawls. Most students, at least the ones I know of, have at least one by the time they graduate. Just don't have too many ^_~

I'd also encourage you to do a bit of self-reflecting. Don't just go back to Japanese out of sheer stubborness. Make certain that this is what you want.

--David

[ November 02, 2006, 07:07 PM: Message edited by: Ikemook ]

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0Megabyte
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Hmm. Ike, that's a good point. Technically, this is my first year at this college, but I already have an AA degree, and so, have merely transferred from elsewhere to here. So it might be slightly more troublesome. It's the first class I've ever taken that I have decided to withdraw from.

Okay, just don't be afraid to do so. Got it.

Richard: Again, you write something that I find entertaining. You're a regular entertainer, you know that? You're a bit quirky, but your views, I'm starting to find, are something to think about, even if I decide you're wrong. ( [Big Grin] ) Well, that is true in most things except your views on the Abrahamic religions and your views on homophilia. (a word and concept I only heard first from you.)

Okay, enough kissing your old wrinkly ass.

As it is, I love finding connections between words. I like to know the etymology, the source of the words I use, and when I learn such things, their depth of meaning increases in my mind. They become more... I dunno, real, to know where they came from, and how their old meanings became more or less specialized. It has allowed me a bit more distinction within the use of words. It's good.

I'd almost certainly enjoy learning those languages, based on what you said about it.

However, how are you saying gender was (at least an example of) the reason English speakers are dominant? I'm not sure I follow your train of thought there...

But you have a good point about Arabic. If I learned Arabic, I probably wouldn't have that hard a time getting a job... somewhere.

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Zyne
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Drop it. Save your GPA. Your GPA is forever. Down the line, nobody cares what class you withdraw from.
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LoverOfJoy
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quote:
If I learned Arabic, I probably wouldn't have that hard a time getting a job... somewhere.
Right before you get kidnapped and beheaded.
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pickled shuttlecock
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I'd suggest a more mundane but useful language, like Gaelic or Swahili.
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0Megabyte
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Yes, I DO rather prefer having my head on my shoulders.

After all, I've been told it's a good one, and I'd rather not take my chances with a potentially lower-quality replacement.

[Big Grin]

I spoke to my councilor, and so I'm dropping it.

I was shocked to learn my grade in the class was a C- and not an F. Still... I can't keep up, and I AM avoiding the class out of sheer frustration.

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DonaldD
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Withdraw - but if you plan on re-taking it, see if you can arrange to audit the course going forward.
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Richard Dey
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O'Meg. The advantage of being old is that one can say all the things one thought when one was young -- but couldn't get away with saying. When you're old, assassination is an honor -- to do unto others as one would risk having done unto oneself [Smile] .

Gender, as in French or German, is perfectly meaningless! Does one have better sex in French or German? No! At least in Greek and Latin it leads one (or misleads one) into a declension so that it can at least be looked up. Old Swedish had no less than 7 genders! English lost them because they were simply not useful, even as Dutch is slowly losing them today. It's one thing to suggest that stallion or stud has masculine gender, and mare and filly have feminine gender -- or even that ships retain the feminine gender as an anomaly in English, but why intentionally take a language that has, for example, no past tense (Chinaman talk), two Ls (Polish), or that has to be accompanied by sign language (Italian), or where vowels are so sacred (the name of the momgod) that they can't be written down (Hebrew)?

If one is going to go to all the trouble to learn the subtleties of somebody else's language, one must have good cause -- like being madly in love with somebody who speaks Swahili or a driving ambition to carve one's own tombstone in Mongolia.

You will never at your advanced age speak like a native of Japan -- or even hear like a native of Japan, or any other exotic land. You should either take something useful, study an interesting dead language, save a language in the Amazon basin from extinction, or take a comparative linguistics course. Surely a big school such as yours has a course in:

A Smattering of Foreign Tongues on the Comparative Method for Those Who've Just Figured Out that English is the Largest and Best Language Ever Invented by Mankind, preferably given by somebody whose English is at least passable.

Check your catalog.

Then, of course, you get the Harvard Extension courses -- where the instructors are brilliant scholars in their native tongues -- but can't speak English!

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Richard Dey
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NB, O'Meg: The late Warren Johansson, the philologist and midrashic scholar who was fluent in 50 (count them: fifty) languages, including some archaic tongues of the Caucasus), said, "Only the language of mathematics has comparable value to English today." (1993)
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kenmeer livermaile
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Vladimir Nabokov, for my money the greatest practitioner of the Ebglish tongue, deeply misses his native Russian but made it very clear tha English was not a consolation prize: it was as much an improvement of his lexicon as was his emigration to the USA from Russia via stints in Nazi dominated 30s Europe in company with his Jewish wife in those perilous times.

"...like being madly in love with somebody who speaks Swahili or a driving ambition to carve one's own tombstone in Mongolia."

What HAVE you been smoking of late, Monsieur Dey? I WANT some [Wink]

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Richard Dey
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! Nabokov taught at Wellesley when I was young. He absolutely hated it there -- and he thought the girls were as dumb as Lolitas [Wink] .
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scifibum
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Refreshing perspective, RD...every time I get near a non-English language course or a discussion about languages, someone always bemoans the English language, saying at least <other langauge> has rules. Well, at least English has utility. =D
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Richard Dey
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Even whilst I'm typing, Ray Kurzweil has been discussing the future of speech recognition on Book TV. Within a decade and a half he predicts auto-translation will be in place in phones so one can talk to anybody anywhere without actually hearing their voices. All those foreign-language teachers will be ob-so-lete -- and all the rote memorization.

The only real grammatical advantage to learning a foreign language (except mathematics) is that it helps the student to reassess what English grammar is about -- oftimes long forgotten by the time he finds himself in Spanish class.

The majority of those learning Spanish in high-schools today don't have the English to comprehend the course in English [Eek!] ! Not only are they mostly Spanish-speakers squeaking through high school, the English-speakers' English isn't good enough to comprehend the English of the teacher! You remember the cartoon.
The blackboard says To form an adjective in Latin, you must first determine the gender, the number, the declension, the .... The caption reads, Miss Latina! What's a adjective?.

DD: Yes, English has not only utility, it has unlimited perspective and it has the fewest limitations of any languages except, say, the Algonkin languages -- which doesn't have words as such but creates (sometimes unpoetic) 'sound concepts'. Algonkin languages are very holophrastic, primitive.

I love that story of Gibbs, one of the great gay heroes in science. He was a bit obtuse and famously incommunicative except in his scientific papers. Suddenly, his new chemistry department was getting shortchanged in the Yale budget and Modern Languages were getting all the money -- and demanding more. He went to a plenary budget session for the university where he listened to somebody in every modern language defend his need to promote the up-and-coming field.

"Modern languages are the new field of international relations. Mathematics doesn't need more money."

Gibbs stood up and shouted, "But mathematics is a language!"

Gibbs won his case, but not soon enough to prevent Yale from slipping into its rank as a 2nd-rate university where its poshies continue to hough and puff.

¶ Gibbs: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willard_Gibbs

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Ben
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RD, Quite interesting stuff! I'm nowhere near being any kind of expert on linguistics other than some basics of my own native languages and a few phrases in other languages. But I'd like to hear a bit more on your views in this regard.

Maybe comment a bit (if you've read Language in Hand ) on William Stokoe's assertion that sign language was created and used originally by humans, leading to developing of language skills and comprehension, etc. evolving the necessary tools and ability for spoken language? Just a thought... (And it goes without saying that you'll let us know if you believe Stokoe was gay, homophilic, or other.) [Smile]

If not the above, at the least, I've enjoyed reading your previous posts, and checking into some of these things. Thanks.

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