Ornery.org
  Front Page   |   About Ornery.org   |   World Watch   |   Guest Essays   |   Contact Us

The Ornery American Forum Post New Topic  Post A Reply
my profile login | register | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» The Ornery American Forum » General Comments » UCLA taser incident (Page 1)

 - UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!   This topic comprises 10 pages: 1  2  3  4  ...  8  9  10   
Author Topic: UCLA taser incident
Radu Floricica
Member
Member # 3054

 - posted      Profile for Radu Floricica   Email Radu Floricica       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
What do you guys think about this one?

Links:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyvrqcxNIFs
Police report:
http://www.ucpd.ucla.edu/ucpd/zippdf/2006/Taser%2011-15-06.pdf
Local news:
http://dailybruin.ucla.edu/news/articles.asp?id=38958
http://dailybruin.com/news/articles.asp?id=38960
International:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/11/16/ucla_taser_incident/

Posts: 9 | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Jesse
Member
Member # 1860

 - posted      Profile for Jesse   Email Jesse   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
According to one of the wifes friends, who was there when the CSO did the sweep, he didn't exactly refuse to leave or refuse to produce ID.

He said he forgot his ID, and asked to finish what he was doing since it would only take another ten minutes. The CSO argued with him for about one minute tops and then went to call campus police.

According to her, he got his stuff together and left that area in less than ten minutes. She didn't see the altercation between him and the UCPD.

Posts: 11410 | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
kenmeer livermaile
Member
Member # 2243

 - posted      Profile for kenmeer livermaile   Email kenmeer livermaile       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Things like this tend to happen when a) cops don't reign in their fellows well enough or b) lacking a), folks don't shoot the odd cop now and then, just to remind them that it CAN happen to them.

I believe in the Rule of Law. I also believe in Equal Opportunity Free Market Balance of Force. Adam Smith's invisible hand pulling the odd trigger here and there to balance things out.

Chicago cops lerned this lesson the hard way in the 60s/70s.

Posts: 23297 | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
The Drake
Member
Member # 2128

 - posted      Profile for The Drake   Email The Drake   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The video is useless. Based on the information in the stories, I can only say this.

You do what the cops tell you, when they tell you.

Based on the student's statements and the timeline, he had a big hard-on to refuse authority. "Here's your abuse of power, etc." Rambling on about the Patriot Act - which I don't think includes student safety ID checks.

How is it possible that police can be dispatched to the building, and arrive before you leave it? Only if your intention is to be disruptive, resistant, and generally be a pain.

Now, the cops had alternatives. They could have tried to drag him from the building. They could have beaten him with nightsticks. But instead, they used a taser. They used it repeatedly, because there was no change in the situation, as far as I can tell.

At no time do you hear the student say, "Okay, I'm leaving, let me catch my breath. Give me a minute." He continues to resist the officers' commands verbally and physically.

Posts: 7707 | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
LoverOfJoy
Member
Member # 157

 - posted      Profile for LoverOfJoy   Email LoverOfJoy   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
How is it possible that police can be dispatched to the building, and arrive before you leave it?
Well, to be fair, it was University Police. They may have just been downstairs or something. But I agree with your overall assessment. Even if Jesse's report is accurate and he just forgot his card and asked to be allowed to stay ten more minutes, once the security officer left to get the police you'd think he'd just high tail it out of there or at least take them seriously enough to apologize and leave. It sure sounds like he was looking for a fight. It reminds me of jasonr's reports of activists he's seen at his college.
Posts: 3639 | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Jesse
Member
Member # 1860

 - posted      Profile for Jesse   Email Jesse   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Drake?

It's not a small town library. It's not as if he had 30 feet to travel. It's a three or four story building about a quarter of the footprint of a city block.

He was using a computer, and had his books and notes out. He kept working for a couple of minutes after the argument with the CSO, then gathered his things and headed out.

He was walking out the door when the cops walked in and he was identified to them by one of CSO's, and was grabbed by the UCPD. Just a guy trying to cause problems, eh?

No, just a guy who was violently grabbed because he dared to lip off to a freaking hall monitor, and was then tazed because he told the cops to get off of him.


The student posed no threat to anyone by refusing to stand up. He was tazed after being handcuffed. He was tazed while lying prone.

There was no need to beat or taze anyone once the student was laying flat on the floor, other than the need of slow witted and inadequate men to try to assert authority. He couldn't have weighed more than 180 at the outside, there were three of them, and he was cuffed. They could have just picked him up.

They weren't interested in resolving the situation, they were interested in proving some punk kid couldn't show them up.

This is the typical behavior of Southern California police in general.

The officers threatened to taze a student for requesting badge numbers. How you can try to paint that as police officers doing their duty is beyond me.

I guess the moral of the story is that any college kid daring to get lippy deserves to be punished in a manner we aren't allowed to use on prisoners of war and have his life placed in danger, despite never in any way assaulting anyone?

Posts: 11410 | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
DonaldD
Member
Member # 1052

 - posted      Profile for DonaldD   Email DonaldD   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'm intrigued - when protesters "passively resist" efforts to remove them by going limp, do they regularly get tased?

I've seen many, many instances of limp protesters being carried off by cops - but I have never seen a limp person physically assaulted by them. Not saying it doesn't happen, but I would expect to see such clips get more airtime because, well, the MSM is controlled by liberals who absolutely hate cops in general...

Posts: 10751 | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
kenmeer livermaile
Member
Member # 2243

 - posted      Profile for kenmeer livermaile   Email kenmeer livermaile       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"You do what the cops tell you, when they tell you."

You're a real freedom fighter, ain't you?

There's a reason that L.A. gangstah culture emphasizes putting a cap in someone's ass: it works.

Doing what the cops tell you isn't nearly so reliable.

"Based on the student's statements and the timeline, he had a big hard-on to refuse authority. "Here's your abuse of power, etc." Rambling on about the Patriot Act - which I don't think includes student safety ID checks."

So do I. I guess I deserve tazing too next time I don't stand and salute when a cop tells me to.

"He continues to resist the officers' commands verbally and physically."

Maybe he wasn't angry so much as he just wasn't totally borged out of his mind?

Let me stick a cattle prod up YOUR ass and tell you to sit still...

Posts: 23297 | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
MattP
Member
Member # 2763

 - posted      Profile for MattP   Email MattP   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Even on C.O.P.S., where they've got a pretty good idea that the suspect is drunk/stoned/armed, people don't get tazed just for laying there. If they're laying there, the cops just pick them up.

[ November 18, 2006, 03:51 PM: Message edited by: MattP ]

Posts: 3481 | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Gaoics79
Member
Member # 969

 - posted      Profile for Gaoics79   Email Gaoics79   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Well, to be fair, it was University Police. They may have just been downstairs or something. But I agree with your overall assessment. Even if Jesse's report is accurate and he just forgot his card and asked to be allowed to stay ten more minutes, once the security officer left to get the police you'd think he'd just high tail it out of there or at least take them seriously enough to apologize and leave. It sure sounds like he was looking for a fight. It reminds me of jasonr's reports of activists he's seen at his college.
That's what I was thinking. Then again, I wasn't there; it's possible that these cops really did behave unreasonably. On the other hand, cops where I'm from don't go tazering people for kicks; if this guy got tazered, he probably did something really stupid to bring it upon himself. I don't buy this garbage that they didn't give him a chance to leave peacefully; I'm sure he had PLENTY of opportunity to do so, but for whatever reason, was spoiling for a fight. So even if the cops did abuse their power, that doesn't make this guy any less of a moron for deliberately provoking them into doing it.

I have no respect for people who seek martyrdom for martyrdom's sake, especially when it's just senseless and proves nothing. Rosa Parks may have wanted to get arrested when she sat in the front of the bus, but her action was more than just provocation for its own sake; she genuinely believed she had just as much right as anyone else to sit in that seat, and was willing to go to jail to assert that right. What right did this doofus think he had? The right to use a university library without ID? The right to do whatever the hell he wants whenever he feels like it wherever he feels like it without consequence? How noble of him.

I'll go further: to borrow a metaphor from the Supreme Court of Canada (and possible the House of Lords, I can't remember), martyrdom should be used as a shield, not a sword. When you go about your daily life and the government comes in and picks a fight with you, challenging a fundamental right, if you resist and become a martyr, then that's fine. I respect that. I don't respect people who decide that their cause would benefit from some martyrdom, so they manufacture a situation where the state is forced to attack them, for the purpose of making themselves martyrs. If you have to go out of your way to provoke the authorities into violating your rights, you need to seriously question whether these so-called "rights" are even rights in the first place.

I am thinking of the martyrs of Cordoba, for example. In the 9th century, these crazy Spanish Christians led by a guy named eulogius decided that they didn't like Spanish Muslim rule. So they went and started deliberately violating the law, blaspheming Mohammad, and doing everything they could to provoke the authorities into killing them. It took alot of effort, and they finally managed to force the authorities to kill them, not because the authorities particularly wanted to, but because these so-called "martyrs" left them no other choice.

The point being, the "martyrs" weren't martyred over freedom of speech or religion. That had nothing to do with it. They did it because they wanted to attack the Muslims, and this was a good tool for them to do it.

[ November 18, 2006, 04:23 PM: Message edited by: jasonr ]

Posts: 7629 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
kenmeer livermaile
Member
Member # 2243

 - posted      Profile for kenmeer livermaile   Email kenmeer livermaile       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"How noble of him."

Let us now taze delusionally noble men...

Posts: 23297 | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Jesse
Member
Member # 1860

 - posted      Profile for Jesse   Email Jesse   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
He was leaving when they grabbed him. He was on his way out of the building when a CSO pointed him out to the cops.

The cops immediately laid hands on him. They had no authority to use even that level of force before telling him to stop.

By the way, ID is not required to use the Powell library. It's open to the public during regular hours, Students and Faculty only from 11pm to 7am. I've done lots of research in there.

If you haven't dealt with Southern CA cops, you're just talking out of a stinky place. F the police was NWA, not PE.

How about "the right not be subjected to cruel and unusual punishment, or any form of punishment without due process"?

The police patently were NOT protecting the public by repeatedly tazing a man lying prone. Instead, they were trying to punish someone, and as we've dealt with on this board a time or two, that is not their job.

Edited to add

I just spent the last two years living right down the street from UCLA while my wife completed her BA in costume design there. I am very familiar with the campus, and have been in this library many times to read while waiting for her to finish a show. I stayed there after 11pm at least a dozen times not knowing I wasn't supposed to, until my wife told me. I was never asked for ID. Maybe they stepped up enforcement this year.

This situation occured because he lipped off to a hall monitor with an attitude, and then was needlessly grabbed by cop while in an emotionally aggravated state. It's not the job of peace officers to needlessly escalate a situation.

A cop who deserves the job would have just said "Hey, are you leaving?" and then watched to make sure he left.

[ November 18, 2006, 04:44 PM: Message edited by: Jesse ]

Posts: 11410 | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Tom Curtis
Member
Member # 2730

 - posted      Profile for Tom Curtis   Email Tom Curtis   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
IMO Jesse is absolutely correct on this one. In fact, IMO, the officers involved ought to be charged with criminal assualt.
Posts: 1208 | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
RickyB
Member
Member # 1464

 - posted      Profile for RickyB   Email RickyB   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"b) lacking a), folks don't shoot the odd cop now and then, just to remind them that it CAN happen to them."

A-focking-men, brother. I keep telling the cops over here (in my columns and such) that the difference between 0 cops with a bullet in the head and 1 is huge. The difference between 1 and 10 is a statistic.

Posts: 19145 | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Jesse
Member
Member # 1860

 - posted      Profile for Jesse   Email Jesse   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Worth noting-

I want a friggin transcript of the CSO's call to the UCPD.

As I said, my wifes friend saw the initial argument between the student and the CSO, who in her words was "power tripping". The student said he would be gone in a few minutes, "just let me finish this" ect, and the CSO immediately became loud, demanding, and aggitated (translation from the val-speak in which this was related to me is free of charge [Smile] ) . I really want to know what the UCPD had been told before encountering the student.

Posts: 11410 | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Loki
Member
Member # 2312

 - posted      Profile for Loki   Email Loki   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
UCPD was probably that he was a terrorist, and was posing a threat, and was telling uncle sam to go sit on it.
Posts: 311 | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
The Drake
Member
Member # 2128

 - posted      Profile for The Drake   Email The Drake   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
It's interesting to see the people who consider tasers an excessive use of force advocating the murder of police officers.

Somebody is much more likely to get injured while being carried away than being tasered.

Freedom fighter? For the freedom to stay in a building you were asked to leave after you violated the rules?

As for me, if security asks me for I D when I'm working late, I have it. If I don't, I could be asked to leave. I wouldn't hang around asking to finish up.

Then, the next day, all hell would break loose when I reported the attitude of the man. Aad I'll have a lot more credibility, because I won't look like a loon trying to cause trouble.

[ November 18, 2006, 08:17 PM: Message edited by: The Drake ]

Posts: 7707 | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Loki
Member
Member # 2312

 - posted      Profile for Loki   Email Loki   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Would you consider getting a bump on the head torture?

What about repeated large doses of electricity?

Taser's are meant to stop people assaulting the officer, which this guy wasn't doing. 'Get up or you'll be tased again.' What? What..?

Posts: 311 | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Everard
unregistered


 - posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"Somebody is much more likely to get injured while being carried away than being tasered."

Well, no. Tasering is inherently damaging. So, the liklihood of someone getting hurt while being tasered is 100%. The liklihood of someone getting injured while being carried away is actually relatively small, given the number of people who are injured compared to the number of arrests made.

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
javelin
Member
Member # 1284

 - posted      Profile for javelin   Email javelin   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Wikipedia entry

quote:
Deaths & Injury associated with stun-gun use

Supporters say that stun guns are a safer alternative to devices such as firearms. Taser brand of stun guns were originally marketed as "non-lethal" devices. However, based on the judgements of the SEC, this has had to be amended as "less-lethal" devices.[5]

Between September 1999 and October 2004, there were 73 cases of deaths of subjects soon after having been shocked using Tasers. Of these cases:

* In 8 cases, medical examiners said Tasers were a cause or a contributing factor or could not be ruled out as a cause of death.
* In 18 cases coroners and other officials stated that Tasers were not a factor.
* In most of the 73 cases, drugs including cocaine, methamphetamine, and PCP were concluded to be the major factor leading to death.
* In many cases pre-existing cardiovascular conditions or other medical conditions were stated to be a factor.
* Several deaths occurred as a result of injuries sustained in struggles. In a few of these cases head injury due to falling after being shocked contributed to later death.

These incidents form a very small percentage of many tens of thousands of operational uses of tasers.[6]

Various lawsuits against the manufacturers and users of stun guns are pending, but many court judgements have dismissed lawsuits by finding evidence of preexisting conditions, ranging from excited delirium (caused by a subject's interaction with high levels of drug-use) which may be a factor before cardiac arrest, and preexisting osteoarthritis which may make bone fracture more likely when the device is used on the subject.

Police officers in at least five states have filed lawsuits against Taser International claiming they suffered serious injuries after being shocked with the device during training classes. [7]

Critics argue that although the medical conditions or illegal drug-taking of some of these casualties, may have been the proximate cause, the use of the taser may have significantly heightened the risk of death for those suspects in an at-risk category. Therefore, they argue, this suggests that tasers and other electroshock weapons may be too dangerous to use on people with certain medical conditions. Furthermore, since police officers will typically not know about a person's medical conditions or the contents of his/her bloodstream, this entails a risk of death with virtually any suspect.

Supporters say that stun guns and tasers are more effective than any other means including pepper-spray (an eye irritant/breathing irritant), batons (and other conventional ways of inflicting pain), hand-to-hand combat (i.e. wrestling a subject to the ground), or even hand guns, at bringing a subject down to the ground with a minimum physical exertion, and with a minimum of potential for injury. Stun-guns have a direct link to reduced injury from use of physical force, and are attributed to saving human lives by use as an alternative to the use of firearms to subdue violent or out-of-control subjects. However, critics charge that police officers who are risk-averse will also resort to tasers in situations where previously they would have used more conventional, less "extreme" techniques, such as trying to reason with a cornered suspect.

Ev, are you overstating your case?
Posts: 8614 | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
The Drake
Member
Member # 2128

 - posted      Profile for The Drake   Email The Drake   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I guess you're never been exposed to how hard it is to physically restrain somebody. Very tricky to do without hurting the subject or endangering yourself. Your stastic is probably right, though, because most people being arrested don't resist. I'd imagine further that the number of people resisting are probably injured close to 100%.

Don't get me wrong, I think there might have been better ways to handle this situation. But the guy in question was a willing participant in the escalation of events.

Posts: 7707 | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Everard
unregistered


 - posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"Ev, are you overstating your case?"

No. Are you misreading what I wrote in order to ask that question? Electrical shock is always damaging. That doesn't mean its always fatal.

Nor am I saying that tasers aren't effective at bringing down someone who is out of control or violent. They are.

What I'm saying is that tasers cause injury, so once you use a taser, you're out of the realm of police not causing injury.

Is hauling someone off who is resisting dangerous? Yup. But, see, I haven't seen evidence this guy was dangerous to the police before he got tasered.

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
RickyB
Member
Member # 1464

 - posted      Profile for RickyB   Email RickyB   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Drake, I'm not advocating, I'm warning. I don't want to see cops get shot, but if cops don't respect the rights of people, they will eventually get shot. Thus spaketh HISTORY.
Posts: 19145 | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Tom Curtis
Member
Member # 2730

 - posted      Profile for Tom Curtis   Email Tom Curtis   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Frankly, the risk of injury in carrying a passively resisting person is, if done properly, effectively zero. This is not to be confused with subduing a violently resisting person by physical force, which probably does carry a greater threat of injury to the resisting person, and arresting officers. There is no credible evidence that the victim in this case was doing more than passively resisting the police. Consequently, as he posed no threat to them, and as the onlookers posed no threat beyond the threat of reporting abuse, the tasering was not warranted. Repeated tasering, again IMO, constituted criminal assault and should be dealt with as such.
Posts: 1208 | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Jesse
Member
Member # 1860

 - posted      Profile for Jesse   Email Jesse   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Drake, he was in no way responsible for the massive overreaction of overcompensating campus cops who have far less training and experience than real officers (yeah, I said it).

The likely hood of a guy who simply refused to stand up and never in anyway threatened or assaulted an officer getting hurt being carried away is really, really low. Cops transport protesters this way all the time, by the dozens.

You're still not getting it, Drake. He wasn't dealing with a cop when he refused to leave, he was dealing with a hall monitor. He was leaving when the police arrived and grabbed him.

He didn't tell the police he wouldn't leave. He told them to get off of him.

If he had been armed, the campus police would have greatly increased the risks to themselves and other students by grabbing him suddenly by the shoulder, neh? Hand on shoulder is not exactly a sharp way to deal with a threat, it's a bullying move one pulls when trying to push around a suspect one doesn't believe to actually pose a threat.

I think the "competence" of the officer with the taser is pretty clearly illustrated by his threat to taser a girl who asked for his badge number. Officialy, a dumb-ass.

These are supposed to be *peace officers*. I've dealt with a few decent ones in my life, who know how to de-escelate a situation, but in this situation some billy bad ass flat foot decided he wanted an adrenaline rush.

The talk of batons even being an option when dealing with an entirely non-violent subject who did not try to run is simply disturbing. No force was mandated by the actions of the student, and the initial decision to lay hands on him is what created the whole situation in the first place.

Your analogy is wrong from the get go, and the fact that you refuse to acknowledge the events as reported but rather insist on your alternative version makes it very difficult to take you seriously.

Posts: 11410 | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
kenmeer livermaile
Member
Member # 2243

 - posted      Profile for kenmeer livermaile   Email kenmeer livermaile       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"If he had been armed, the campus police would have greatly increased the risks to themselves and other students by grabbing him suddenly by the shoulder, neh? Hand on shoulder is not exactly a sharp way to deal with a threat, it's a bullying move one pulls when trying to push around a suspect one doesn't believe to actually pose a threat."

I think I've told this story here before? But oh wel, it applies:

Fairly rough neighborhood in Chicago. L-platform. Cop claps me on the shoulder from behind just as I'm boarding the L-train.

I reacted.

I saw a cop watching his life flash before his eyes as my hands, instictively poised to rip someone's eyes oput of their head, swooped down in front of his face just shy of their intended appointment.

Something -- the cut of his jacket, a sense of the badge lying invisible under his jacket, I don't know -- had caused me to pull up hort.

Yes, of course, this all happened in the blink of an eye.

The officer wasd STUPEFIED.

I went off on him:

"You stupid dumbass!!! I almost killed you! I'd have gone to jail for a long long time! All because you're a ****ing moron idiot who doesn't know that you NEVER grab a stranger from behind like that, especially not on the Belmont L-platform! You ****ing MORON!!!!"

Cops. They come in all colors and flavors, just like teachers, mechanics, fry cooks...

Posts: 23297 | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
The Drake
Member
Member # 2128

 - posted      Profile for The Drake   Email The Drake   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Well, for Starters, none of us have any idea what happened in the initial encounter -do we?I admit that I may be projecting my bias that he was belligerent and causing trouble. But I think others are also giving him the benefit of the doubt in the absence of reliable information.

There are two "events as reported", the police report and the Student's report. As for somebody putting their hand on your shoulder justifying the flight into a petulant rage, I don't see it -and it is a precursor to violence.

I think I'll probably wait for more information, but so far I still don't get what the student's problem was. Other than not taking private security seriously. Apparently a view shared by members of this forum.

Posts: 7707 | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
kenmeer livermaile
Member
Member # 2243

 - posted      Profile for kenmeer livermaile   Email kenmeer livermaile       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"As for somebody putting their hand on your shoulder justifying the flight into a petulant rage, I don't see it -and it is a precursor to violence."

Next time someone comes from behind and seeks to restrict your world, perhaps you'll feel disturbed too. Perhaps you'll express your disturbance by acting as calmly as possible. PLaying possum in the face of constabular authority is a popular survival method. But perhaps you'll react more actively.

"so far I still don't get what the student's problem was"

Being tazed. It can be difficult to get one's head around the fact that authority figures with powerful weapons and license to use them will sometimes overreact, but if one can get one's head aroud the idea of a student overreacting, one is halfway there...

Posts: 23297 | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Gaoics79
Member
Member # 969

 - posted      Profile for Gaoics79   Email Gaoics79   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
These are supposed to be *peace officers*. I've dealt with a few decent ones in my life, who know how to de-escelate a situation, but in this situation some billy bad ass flat foot decided he wanted an adrenaline rush. [EMPHASIS ADDED]
And why did the situation need to be de-escalated? Who escalated it? It takes at least two people to dance, two people to argue, and two people to escalate a situation.

Let's cut the crap. I've been to enough university libraries to know that no one ever gets the cops called on them for just sitting around minding their own business. I don't know exactly how this whole thing went down, but it's completely unbelievable that this guy innocently didn't have his id, was asked to leave, and then suddenly got tazered before he could leave. That story is bull****.

My suspicion is that this guy didn't have proper ID, and instead of leaving like any sensible person would have when asked, he decided to get belligerent and be a wise ass about it. He obviously provoked the situation, and thereby got what he deserved.

As for whether the cops used excessive force, that's a wholly separate issue. From the sound of it, it looks like the cop did use excessive force. But that shouldn't obscure the fact that this idiot probably got what was coming to him.

The only way this guy didn't deserve whatever he got was if he happened to be mentally ill at the time of the incident, which judging by his ranting, may not be far from the truth. If he really was sick in the head, then I don't think he deserved what he got.

[ November 18, 2006, 10:15 PM: Message edited by: jasonr ]

Posts: 7629 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Tom Curtis
Member
Member # 2730

 - posted      Profile for Tom Curtis   Email Tom Curtis   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Drake, we do not have two reports, but several. We have the the report by the police which says that Tabatabainejad "went limp" and "refused to cooperate with officers", which clearly shows that he was not violent, and was passively resisting arrest or escort from the premises.

We have the report by several students who witnessed the incident that he was detained while himself in the process of leaving the building. That report is confirmed by the friend of Jesse's wife who claimed he got his stuff together and left within 10 minutes. As she did not see the altercation, which was quite loud, I can only presume he had gone some distance towards leaving the building.

Against the police claim that they several times asked Tabatabainejad to leave, and he refused, we have the claim of several witnesses that he was in the process of leaving, and that they immediately detained him by seizing his arm.

The student and police account that he was only tazed while he lay on the ground passively resisting the police is confirmed by the audio of the video tape. In that audio we first hear Tabatabainejad yelling "Don't touch me" several times. The speach is then confused, but you then several times hear a police officer say "Get up!" which clearly indicates that Tabatabainejad was on the ground at the time, and hence no threat to either police or onlookers. It is only then that he is tazed - repeatedly.

I notice that the only way you can pretend the police acted justifiably is by pretending the student had an implausible motive ("a big hard-on to refuse authority"). (I can't help noticing Javelin's typical inconsistency in letting attributions of motive by right wingers pass without comment, though he is ever vigilant against the liberals.)

Posts: 1208 | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Tom Curtis
Member
Member # 2730

 - posted      Profile for Tom Curtis   Email Tom Curtis   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Jasonr:

quote:
And why did the situation need to be de-escalated? Who escalated it? It takes at least two people to dance, two people to argue, and two people to escalate a situation.

Let's cut the crap. I've been to enough university libraries to know that no one ever gets the cops called on them for just sitting around minding their own business. I don't know exactly how this whole thing went down, but it's completely unbelievable that this guy innocently didn't have his id, was asked to leave, and then suddenly got tazered before he could leave. That story is bull****.

Jesse:
quote:
According to one of the wifes friends, who was there when the CSO did the sweep, he didn't exactly refuse to leave or refuse to produce ID.

He said he forgot his ID, and asked to finish what he was doing since it would only take another ten minutes. The CSO argued with him for about one minute tops and then went to call campus police.

According to her, he got his stuff together and left that area in less than ten minutes. She didn't see the altercation between him and the UCPD.

We have an eye witness account of what happened, but we can't let that influence our opinion. Oh no! If we went around believing eye witnesses we may not be able to exhonerate the police.
Posts: 1208 | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Gaoics79
Member
Member # 969

 - posted      Profile for Gaoics79   Email Gaoics79   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Tom, nothing you mentioned, if true, changes my view that this guy either 1. Was mentally ill or 2. Was a belligerent idiot who got what he deserved.

When the cops, or or even library security, tell you to leave the premises, you don't ****ing say "in ten minutes". You don't finish what you're doing. You get up and get the hell out of there. That's what any sensible person does. It doesn't take 10 minutes to pack up your bag and walk out. This guy refused to leave, and probably was belligerent too, from the sounds of the video.

And then the idiot starts making his body go limp, engaging in passive resistence. Why was he resisting at all? I didn't say he was violent or a threat; I said he was resisting. And you confirmed exactly what I said, proving my point. Any normal sensible human being would not have been tazered in this situation. This guy asked for it.

I just watched the video, and I am fortified in my opinion. Nothing I saw in that video changes what I said one iota.

[ November 18, 2006, 10:28 PM: Message edited by: jasonr ]

Posts: 7629 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Tom Curtis
Member
Member # 2730

 - posted      Profile for Tom Curtis   Email Tom Curtis   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Jason, bull****!

Police are not empowered to use force for power trips. They are empowered solely for the purpose of "to serve and protect". The student was already leaving. Had they done nothing, he would have left the library in minutes without incident. Had the spoken to him before they seized him, he probably would have left in about the same time, plus whatever time was needed for the conversation.

Instead they exceded their authority by grabbing hold of him before they had made any request as to what he should do, or adviced him that they were arresting him (according to eye-witness accounts).

When he resisted the attempt to forcibly compell him to do what he was going to do anyway, ie, the excessive use of force, he was tazed. And that is flat out wrong. If he was not a threat to anyone, then the police were not protecting anyone by tazing him. They were using unnecessary force. IMO, they were using unnecessary force in a situation in which no reasonable person would have believed the force necessary (and hence lawfull), so it was criminal assault.

Finally, as to that nonsense about when library security tells you do x you jump through any hoop they demand, what crap. He was a student at the university. He breached in a very minor way an administrative rule while using facilities he was entitled to use. Are you saying that library security have to be stuck up little hitlers to the extent that in that circumstance they cannot show a little discretion? Had I been in Tabatabainejad's position, I would likely have done the same thing.

Posts: 1208 | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
The Drake
Member
Member # 2128

 - posted      Profile for The Drake   Email The Drake   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Tom Curtis:
I notice that the only way you can pretend the police acted justifiably is by pretending the student had an implausible motive ("a big hard-on to refuse authority"). (I can't help noticing Javelin's typical inconsistency in letting attributions of motive by right wingers pass without comment, though he is ever vigilant against the liberals.)

I consider the situation largely in doubt up to the point of the first application of the taser.

That's why I said before that the video was useless.

I believe attributing motives applies to other members of the forum, which (at last count) the gentleman in question is not. I haven't questioned the motives of any member of OUR community.

No one can yet tell me how the student can fail to leave if his intent was to leave immediately.

I attribute a motive to him, based on the fact that he was at first dismissive and disrespectful to the "mall cop" that told him to leave when he couldn't produce ID.

Is that in dispute?

quote:
The lawyer said Tabatabainejad eventually decided to leave the library but when an officer refused the student's request to take his hand off him, the student fell limp to the floor, again to avoid participating in what he considered a case of racial profiling. After police started firing the Taser, Tabatabainejad tried to "get the beating, the use of brutal force, to stop by shouting and causing people to watch. Generally, police don't want to do their dirties in front of a lot of witnesses."
So, this is where my contention continues. He thought he was being racially profiled, and he decided to make a test case of himself. As described by his own lawyer.

Do you think I'm just making this up myself now, Tom?

Posts: 7707 | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
kenmeer livermaile
Member
Member # 2243

 - posted      Profile for kenmeer livermaile   Email kenmeer livermaile       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"And why did the situation need to be de-escalated?"

Well. What a lot of Civics 101 we get to cover today.

Why did the situation need to be de-escalated?? Because the reason we grant police officers so much power is to enable them to Keep the Peace.

"As for whether the cops used excessive force, that's a wholly separate issue. From the sound of it, it looks like the cop did use excessive force. But that shouldn't obscure the fact that this idiot probably got what was coming to him."

The issue of concern is not Joe 'Idiot' Citizen, but Joe 'Supposedly Professional' Policeman. If we are going to view this in terms of who got what coming to him, we should meet -- those of us interested -- on Te Jerry Springer Show and discuss it in their usual finely nuanced fashion.

No one here has so far suggested that the policement should 'get what's coming to them' for excessive force. (And by 'what's coming to them', I don't mean bureaucratic discipline but the justice of the street, wherein someone catches him alone and puts his teeth on a curb...)

So far, we have suggested that excessive force was used and that discipline should be incurred.

This account:

"By this time the student had begun to walk toward the door with his backpack when an officer approached him and grabbed his arm, at which point the student told the officer to let him go. A second officer then approached the student as well.

"The student began to yell 'get off me', repeating himself several times."

describes someone being physically accosted, period. The fact that his accosters wear uniforms doesn't excuse them. The fact that he was repeatedly told to leave and resisted, according to police reports, doesn't change the fact of being accosted. We also have reports from a known entity, Jess, that contradict the police report. We also have statements like this:

"Laila Gordy, "a fourth-year economics student who was present in the library during the incident", claimed officers threatened to zap her "when she asked an officer for his name and his badge number".

What is objectively true is the videofootage (without which this story almost surely wouldn't have made the rounds, just as the Rodney King tape made Rodney's beating headline news.) Sadly, the cat chewed my PC speaker wires, so I can't hear the tape's audio.

My son's work-mate was placed in cuffs and verbally abused for no fault of his own but a rather unique set of circumstances that the officer on hand found difficult to believe. (My son's friend was completely cooperative and showed no sign of fleeing.)

When the other officer did the proper thing -- ran a record check -- the cuffs had to come off. Being called a 'lying ****', however, is not something one can just unlock and remove.

What we got here, I think, is someone (Mostafa Tabatabainejad) having a bad day encountering some else ( Officer Tazer) having a bad day.

What we also have, it appears, is a horribly botched routine police operation.

Posts: 23297 | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
kenmeer livermaile
Member
Member # 2243

 - posted      Profile for kenmeer livermaile   Email kenmeer livermaile       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
No arrest was made. Think about it for a minute. OK?
Were charges pressed? I doubt it. Why? The police ****ed up. It ain't whether Mostafa had an agenda or not, it's that the dumbass cops gave him carte blanche: they put their hands on him without cause.

Basic big bad-ass no-no.

They ****ed up. Just like the cops who cuffed my friend's son.

The cops' superior officers aren't pissed at Mostafa, I;m sure. They're pissed at their emloyees who screwed up a simple 'get outta here' by crossing the line without thinking.

'Keep ypour damn hands off' unless danger is imminent or unless a suspect is poised to flee.

Posts: 23297 | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Gaoics79
Member
Member # 969

 - posted      Profile for Gaoics79   Email Gaoics79   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Tom, there are two separate issues: did the police use excessive force, and did this guy provoke the police and therefor deserve what he got? My answer to both questions is yes.

So we agree on at least one of two points.

On the second, more controversial point, I just want to point out that the video doesn't really give us much information; all it shows us is what appears to be a guy "passively" resisting the police (we don't get a clear shot of the guy, but from the sounds of it, the police kept asking him to get up, and he kept disobeying). My question is: what got him to this point?

In a normal situation, a librarian or security person asks you for ID, and you show it to them, and they go away. Let's say he just forgot his ID. Then he would politely say "sorry, I forgot my ID". Let's assume that this guy was even polite when he said that. What next? Let's assume that the campus security guy/librarian was a prick and decided to be belligerent and ORDERED this guy to leave. At this point, any sensible normal person would say "geez, ok, I'm going I'm going" pick up his stuff, and be out the door. That didn't happen. What happened exactly? The evidence that he said "I'll be ten minutes" is pretty telling. It tells me that he DIDN'T actually agree to leave; he agreed to leave in 10 minutes, which isn't the same thing at all. What's more, it doesn't tell me what this guy's demeanor was when he said so.... based on the video, my suspicion is that his demeanor was less than polite...

The bottom line is, Tom, that sensible people do not go from being asked to leave the library to being tazered by the police. This guy did something to get the cops called. He did something to provoke them, and based on the tape he CLEARLY was resisting arrest, since passive resistence is still resistence.

No one with an ounce of common sense, even if they're the biggest asshole in the world, ends up getting tazered multiple times by police over not having student ID in a library. As much as some people with axes to grind against the police would love to have us believe that the police just arbitrarily came in and tazered some schmo who was minding his own business, I don't buy it.

Posts: 7629 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Everard
unregistered


 - posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Jason-
AFter he had been tased (the video) it would have been impossible for him to obey the order given by the police to get up. After a 3 second tase, it takes 5-15 minutes to regain enough control of your body to stand, as far as I am aware.

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
The Drake
Member
Member # 2128

 - posted      Profile for The Drake   Email The Drake   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"Tabatabainejad was subsequently arrested for resisting/obstructing a police officer, 148(A)(1) of the Penal Code. He was released with a citation and issued a court date. The entire incident is under investigation and a case will be presented to the City Attorney."

That's from the official report, KL. So an arrest was made. Don't know what the Attourney will do. If he's smart he'll find a way to delay and then try to quietly forget about the whole thing.

Should the cops get retraining, discipline, lose a stripe, et. al? Maybe. It seems likely. But let's be clear, this incident is avoided if:

1. Mostafa brings his ID. Presuming that the rule is posted, this isn't a hard thing to do. I can't remember the last time I left my house without ID. The last thing I need is to look like a wanted guy when I get pulled over, be unable to use my credit card, be cited for driving without a license, etc.

2. Mostafa leaves immediately without complaint. The security guy watches him save his files, pack his bags and exit.

Two chances, missed. Before the cops ever showed up.

Posts: 7707 | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
kenmeer livermaile
Member
Member # 2243

 - posted      Profile for kenmeer livermaile   Email kenmeer livermaile       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"He did something to provoke them, and based on the tape he CLEARLY was resisting arrest, since passive resistence is still resistence."

Problem is this: he wasn't under arrest. I agree that some evidence indicates the fella had an axe to grind and was opportunistic in that regard.

But the cops provided that opportunity.

Also, I agree with you that, had Mostafa been a good lad and left promptly, or been more charmingly obsequious to authority figures, the incident probably wouldn't have even begun to occur.

But I do NOT see the relevance of this:

"As much as some people with axes to grind against the police would love to have us believe that the police just arbitrarily came in and tazered some schmo who was minding his own business, I don't buy it."

except in the sense that YOU have an axe to grind and see this topic/event as an opportunity to whet your stone.

I don't think anyone here thinks the cops just waltzed in and grabbed someone and started tazing someone at random. Where do you get such an idea?

Posts: 23297 | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
  This topic comprises 10 pages: 1  2  3  4  ...  8  9  10   

Quick Reply
Message:

HTML is not enabled.
UBB Code™ is enabled.
UBB Code™ Images not permitted.
Instant Graemlins
   


Post New Topic  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | Ornery.org Front Page

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.7.1