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Author Topic: Dennis Miller for President!
EDanaII
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Dennis Miller Real Free Speech: Defeatism

Muahahahaha! [LOL]

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DaveS
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I assume he's serious under his sarcastic tone. It's become the style and technique of the remaining supporters of the war to denounce the "defeatistas" as if their negativity is evidence of a bad attitude, rather than a conclusion. Miller, like most of the positivistas doesn't say why they're wrong or what evidence he has that things are going well. It's just cheap shots for laughs, and nobody but the people in the FOX studio are laughing. Most of the US adult population would hear him out and then say to themselves, "What a schmuck".
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KnightEnder
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We'd go from a president that can't speak English to one who can't shut up.

From one who is at best, plain spoken, to one that sounds as if he is reading out of a thesauruses.

I happen to be part of the 2% of Americans that find Dennis Miller funny, but I wouldn't want him as president.

KE

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Adam Masterman
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Maybe we should start a pool for the last remaining pundit to admit that Iraq isn't going great as planned. Can Dennis outlast OSC, or will Hannity go to his grave without ever uttering the words "civil war". Time will tell.

Adam

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EDanaII
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@ KnightEnder

I'm just being cheeky about DM for president, KE. I said that mostly because I agree with him and anyone who agrees with me OUGHT to be president. [Wink]


@ DaveS:
quote:
Miller, like most of the positivistas doesn't say why they're wrong or what evidence he has that things are going well.
And "defeatistas" -- your words -- don't exactly give us evidence just exactly how we've failed. They assume that, just because things are bad now, they'll never get better. It's kinda like getting lymphoma and then failing to seek medical treatment 'cause "you got lymphoma and things are never gonna get better." Well, duh! Talk about self-fullfiling prophecies! And, after sickening and dying, what else is the "defeatista" to do but to declare "See! I was right!"

"Yea, you were. But only because YOU made it so!"


@ Adam Masterman:
quote:
Maybe we should start a pool for the last remaining pundit to admit that Iraq isn't going great as planned. Can Dennis outlast OSC, or will Hannity go to his grave without ever uttering the words "civil war". Time will tell.
"Not going as great as planned?" Gosh!

The last few space shuttle launches "didn't go as great as planned." We probably should cancel the whole program. The search for James Kim didn't "go as great as planned" either. We probably shoulda canceled any more searches for anyone who gets lost. WWII didn't go "as great as planned" too. Yea, shoulda quit that one too!

"Defeatista!" Good word! [Wink]

BTW, Civil Wars are typified by an actual struggle for power. Which Iraqi group has declared themselves as the "legitimate government of Iraq" separate from the current government? Until that happens, you can only call it a "Civil War" in the _loosest_ sense of the word.

To be fair, Al Sadr has _come close_ but he has as yet to cross that line. And we need to take care of him BEFORE he does. I fear we won't, however. [Frown]

Ed.

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DaveS
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quote:
And "defeatistas" -- your words -- don't exactly give us evidence just exactly how we've failed. They assume that, just because things are bad now, they'll never get better.
Personally, I count myself as a "thoughtfulista", which alone prevents me from being a member of any other group. Applying your metaphor, the disease they've got is more like an untreatable flesh-eating staph infection or maybe Runoverbymacktruckitis. I've commented in depth on the myriad failures in dozens of threads on Ornery, so if you don't think it's been laid out for you to think about, you're either not reading or you're not a member of the thoughtfulistas.
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DaveS
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Ed, your quibble about whether or not it is a civil war is not a lot different from a gun manufacturer claiming that guns don't kill people, bullets do. The struggle for power is caused by a power vacuum at the state level, but you want to claim that it's because of the people doing the fighting instead.

But, I'll be willing to meet you halfway and call it out of control, murderous violence by organized ethnic, religious and political factions intent on destroying their opposition in order to gain as much control over the operations of government as possible.

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Wayward Son
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quote:
"Not going as great as planned?" Gosh!

The last few space shuttle launches "didn't go as great as planned." We probably should cancel the whole program. The search for James Kim didn't "go as great as planned" either. We probably shoulda canceled any more searches for anyone who gets lost. WWII didn't go "as great as planned" too. Yea, shoulda quit that one too!

In a sense, you're right, Ed. Adam wasn't being truthful. The main problems we are having right now are not the result of things not going according to plan--because the Administration didn't have a plan for a sectarian civil war. Unless you consider "ridiculing the possibility" as a plan. [Smile]
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DonaldD
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BTW - the proper quote should have been "admit that Iraq isn't going great as planned". Rephrasing it as you did ("Not going as great as planned") changes the meaning. Gotta be careful when attributing...
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KnightEnder
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If it's a civil war then who is blue and who is gray?

KE

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KnightEnder
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Does Talabani even have a stove pipe hat?

KE

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Wayward Son
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They're all wearing gray. That's what makes it so difficult. [Wink]
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Adam Masterman
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quote:
BTW, Civil Wars are typified by an actual struggle for power. Which Iraqi group has declared themselves as the "legitimate government of Iraq" separate from the current government? Until that happens, you can only call it a "Civil War" in the _loosest_ sense of the word.
You're not a pundit, Ed, so you don't get to play in my denial game. [Wink]

Adam

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EDanaII
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@ DaveS:
quote:
Personally, I count myself as a "thoughtfulista", which alone prevents me from being a member of any other group. Applying your metaphor, the disease they've got is more like an untreatable flesh-eating staph infection or maybe Runoverbymacktruckitis. I've commented in depth on the myriad failures in dozens of threads on Ornery, so if you don't think it's been laid out for you to think about, you're either not reading or you're not a member of the thoughtfulistas.
Aye. And no true Scotsman would ever eat sugar with his porridge, either. [Wink]

Even a staph or a truck victim has a chance unless we abandon them. That's the point you're missing here. Dennis wasn't arguing that we're succeeding, he was arguing that, if we quit NOW, we will fail _for certain._

And that's my whole point to you. You can only fail when you either (a) run out of time, or (b) quit. Not one single "defeatista" has presented a realistic case that we've "run out of time," only that we should quit now. A case that I don't buy.

quote:
But, I'll be willing to meet you halfway and call it out of control, murderous violence by organized ethnic, religious and political factions intent on destroying their opposition in order to gain as much control over the operations of government as possible.
And that's a point I won't disagree with. But calling it "Civil Strife" is, by far more appropriate than calling it "Civil War" since there is no declared war and no one claiming the rightful authority (other than Al Maliki) to control Iraq.


@ Wayward Son:
quote:
In a sense, you're right, Ed. Adam wasn't being truthful. The main problems we are having right now are not the result of things not going according to plan--because the Administration didn't have a plan for a sectarian civil war. Unless you consider "ridiculing the possibility" as a plan. [Smile]
You mean "train the Iraqi's so they can govern themselves" was never a plan? Damn me for thinking it was one from the very beginning! [Wink] Just because "things haven't gone as well as planned" doesn't mean that there was no plan.


@ Adam Masterman:
quote:
You're not a pundit, Ed, so you don't get to play in my denial game. [Wink]
Who's denying? [Smile]

My point was simple. Since I mentioned the "loosest definition" and, therefore by inference, the strictest definition, my point was to demonstrate that they have every right to say it's not a civil war as long as it does not meet the stricter definitions. You're using the ambiguity of language to justify your argument that they're in denial. That's your right of course, but don't expect all of us to buy it. [Wink]

Ed.

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Eric
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On my first-ever trip to Georgia, I was talking to an old-timer (well, since I was 22 at the time, he seemed like an old-timer), and made the mistake of mentioning the American Civil War. The conversation went something like this:

Me: Lots of nice pre-civil war architecture around here. (This was in Savannah.)

Old-timer: Civil war? What civil war? Do you mean "The War of Northern Aggression"?

Me: Um...

OT: Let me tell you something. A "civil war" is defined as a war among one people. The North and the South were, aren't, and never will be "one people".

I suspect that most Iraqis might feel the same way.

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Eric
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Oh, and back to the topic at hand. Anybody who can work a reference to the Plantagenets into a Monday Night Football broadcast gets my vote!
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kenmeer livermaile
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"Does Talabani even have a stove pipe hat?"

No, but he can use a lot of hair spray and tie a tubular turban.

For my mney, all discussion of 'win or lose', 'pursue or retreat' regarding Iraq need to have what is to be won or lost clearly stated. We then find there is a wide variety of objectives and consequences to be desired or feared.

The only objective I have seen that a majority American people originally agreed on regarding invading/occupying Iraq, that still maintains any definitional credibility, was to 'fight the war on terror'.

WMD, installing democracy, democratic domino effect, a better life for Iraqis... these rationales remain moot or have been refuted.

So I predict we will hear a return to and reinforcement of, the war on terror rationale, simply because it is the one objective that can be potentially agreed upon.

Support for this rationale, such as there is, will also collapse in the public's mind as evidence of the consequences of our invasion and occupation mounts.

Eventually, we may decide whether we want to play colonial outpost games in Iraq or not, or we may continue to be bamboozled by horrific diversions for many years to come.

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