Ornery.org
  Front Page   |   About Ornery.org   |   World Watch   |   Guest Essays   |   Contact Us

The Ornery American Forum Post New Topic  Post A Reply
my profile login | register | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» The Ornery American Forum » General Comments » Iran's Holocaust conference opens today (Page 1)

 - UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!   This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2   
Author Topic: Iran's Holocaust conference opens today
Omega M.
Member
Member # 1392

 - posted      Profile for Omega M.     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I see that Iran's conference on the existence of the Holocaust opens today.

I can't believe there's a photo of one "Rabbi Yisroel Dovid Weiss, from the United States, a member of `Jews United Against Zionism,' deliver[ing] a comment" at it. Whatever his opposition to Israel's policies may be, how can he think it's in his people's interest to speak at a conference like this?

I saw on the TV news (so no link) that some of the lectures are going to discuss how the principle of free speech interacts with laws against publicly denying the Holocaust. But given the other topics discussed I sort of doubt that these lectures will be very objective.

Posts: 1966 | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
JoshuaD
Member
Member # 1420

 - posted      Profile for JoshuaD   Email JoshuaD   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
how can he think it's in his people's interest to speak at a conference like this?
Maybe he doesn't believe in the holocaust and is putting the truth above nationality?
Posts: 3742 | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Hannibal
Member
Member # 1339

 - posted      Profile for Hannibal   Email Hannibal   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The Conference in Iran, does not deals with wether the holocaust existed or not...

it deals with the question of "Does Israel has the right to exist or not?"

because the world opinion is that the holocaust have had a profound influence in the establishment of Israel, it doesnt take to account the whole proccess of the jewish settlement from 1880 to 1948 that made the prospect of establishing Israel as a viable option.

so, in this notion, Iran, and those crazy messianic jews coinside. because those jews also believe that the state of Israel should not exist.

For the Iranis, Israel has no right to exist, and they are building the grounds for it, and looking "educated reasons" for why Israel should not exist. for those Satmer Rabbinate jews, Israel also should not exist, because they believe Israel should exist only after the messiah have come and the current Isreal is a sin in the eyes of their god.

thats why those Satmer jews are in that conference, and thats why that conference even takes place.

Posts: 3495 | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Eric
Member
Member # 2699

 - posted      Profile for Eric   Email Eric       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
JoshuaD --

quote:
Maybe he doesn't believe in the holocaust and is putting the truth above nationality?
Those Rabbis at the conference are from a fringe sect called Neturei Karta who, as Hannibal states, don't believe the Jewish nation can exist until the the coming of the Messiah.

NK doesn't deny the Holocaust, but their beliefs on Israel's right to exist fit nicely with Iran's.

Politics makes strange bedfellows.

quote:
The Conference in Iran, does not deals with wether the holocaust existed or not...it deals with the question of "Does Israel has the right to exist or not?"
Exactly. Whatever the outcome of the conference, Iran has a response. If the Holocaust didn't happen, why was Israel created? If it did, why do the Palestinians have to pay for what Nazi Germany did?

It's never been about the Holocaust. It's all about Iran's desire to destroy Israel.

Posts: 448 | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Wayward Son
Member
Member # 210

 - posted      Profile for Wayward Son   Email Wayward Son   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
However, as an economic side benefit, I understand that the Flat Earth Society, Young-Earth Scientific Creationist Association and Neo-Nazis International are looking into booking conventions in Teheran in the near future. Heck, David Duke is over there right now scoping out the hotels!
Posts: 8681 | Registered: Dec 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Tom_paines_ghost
Member
Member # 3285

 - posted      Profile for Tom_paines_ghost   Email Tom_paines_ghost   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"NK doesn't deny the Holocaust, but their beliefs on Israel's right to exist fit nicely with Iran's."

Not sure how NK is relevent, but I am game.

What exactly is NK's position on Israel? How do we know?

Thanks!

Posts: 555 | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Eric
Member
Member # 2699

 - posted      Profile for Eric   Email Eric       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Not sure how NK is relevant? The Rabbis shown in the news attending the Teheran conference are members of NK. Wiki.
Posts: 448 | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Storm Saxon
Member
Member # 1070

 - posted      Profile for Storm Saxon     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Not North Korea, Tom....
Posts: 2936 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Hannibal
Member
Member # 1339

 - posted      Profile for Hannibal   Email Hannibal   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Neturei Karta
Satmer Rabinnate

Posts: 3495 | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Eric
Member
Member # 2699

 - posted      Profile for Eric   Email Eric       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hannibal --

Wiki's article on NK says:

quote:
Neturei Karta are sometimes mistakenly confused with Satmar Hasidim, due to their similar mode of dress, and some similarities in their anti-Zionist ideology.
I know that Wiki's not always an authoritative source, and since you're "on the ground" as it were, can you shed some light on this?

Is NK made up of Satmers? Or are they really just different names for the same group?

Posts: 448 | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Hannibal
Member
Member # 1339

 - posted      Profile for Hannibal   Email Hannibal   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
NK are the extreme end of Satmar, which is a minority extreme by its own right according to Rabbi Arie Deri (who spoke today about those men on Radio, and I happned to have heared him driving to the university).


just to give you the proportionality of this.
we are talking about dozens of men at the most. and sigh... look how big a "story" they made.
thats also one of the reasons they came to Iran

Posts: 3495 | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
HatrackBB
Member
Member # 3323

 - posted      Profile for HatrackBB   Email HatrackBB   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Having the former head of the KKK can't help things either can it? I'm sure he is an authority on the holocaust.

Also:

Rabbi Yisroel Dovid Weiss is not recognized by the Austrian Jewish community from which he hails. And he is arguing that the holocaust was not as bad as we have been lead to believe. Something like only 1 million Jews were killed as opposed to I believe 7-8?

Either way, I seriously doubt the conference is designed to honestly discuss the issue of the holocaust. If it was the Pres of Iran should get a firm rebuke.

In other news: How is there already a BlackBlade in the ornery forums?!

Posts: 12 | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Gaoics79
Member
Member # 969

 - posted      Profile for Gaoics79   Email Gaoics79   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I only wish that we didn't give legitimacy to this sort of thing by actively seeking to suppress the free speech rights of people who want to deny the holocaust.

This is more a criticism of Canada than the U.S., actually. But either way, attempting to suppress holocaust denial and other fringe beliefs elevates the believers to the status of martyrs and gives them legitimacy they never would have otherwise attained.

Holocaust denial should be treated no differently than any other crazy fringe belief like the earth being flat, or the moon landing being faked.

Proponents of hate speech laws would argue with me by pointing out that hate speech causes real violence and real problems, unlike these other more innocuous fringe beliefs. But just because something is a problem, doesn't always mean that to do something about it is more effective than doing nothing. Sometimes doing something only exacerbates a problem, and the best thing to do is to ignore it. That is my stance with respect to this holocaust conference; they are entitled to their opinion, and I have no particular desire to criticize them or attack them. Nothing I say will change their beliefs, and to attack them strenuously would only add fuel to the fire.

Posts: 7629 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Tom_paines_ghost
Member
Member # 3285

 - posted      Profile for Tom_paines_ghost   Email Tom_paines_ghost   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Ahhh, sorry

No wonder it (NK) seemd like an odd asside...

I understand why the way the holocaust was used to justify giving Arab land to the Jews might frustrate Muslims...

But think that trying to deny the obvious ain't the way to go. Odd really.

Posts: 555 | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Hannibal
Member
Member # 1339

 - posted      Profile for Hannibal   Email Hannibal   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
here we go again
nobody "GAVE", "arab land" to jews.

claiming that completly ignores all the procceedings in the region from 1880, not only that, but it also ingores the face, that for the last 500 years (at the top of my head) this region was not an arab land.

why are you trying to be dense and ignore pure and simple facts?

Posts: 3495 | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Tom_paines_ghost
Member
Member # 3285

 - posted      Profile for Tom_paines_ghost   Email Tom_paines_ghost   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Nonsense, the land was occupied by a primarily Arab population, albeit one controlled by an outside empire.

In the late 1880's the Jewish population was what, 2 percent of the total? And bearing in mind that local Muslims had cause to avoid the Ottoman censs-to avoid the blood tax, which Jews were not subject to.

In the following years, with organized Zionist colonization, the percentagecame up a little. And they had ought what, six percent of the lands awarded them by the UN partition?

The history of this is well known. Prhaps you should read a book o the subject that is not propganda, before you accuse others of ignorance?

Can refer you to some if you like. Always glad to help.

Ignoring the cause of the conflict is truly ignorant.

[ December 13, 2006, 12:20 PM: Message edited by: Tom_paines_ghost ]

Posts: 555 | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
kenmeer livermaile
Member
Member # 2243

 - posted      Profile for kenmeer livermaile   Email kenmeer livermaile       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I don't know about deeds of purchase title or similar niceties of peacable legal possession, but I do know that the Israelis fought and won the land they acquired, fair and square, in the most common form of territory acquisition known: war.

No, I ain't saying this makes it right, and I ain't saying it makes it wrong. I'm just saying that the Israelis won and the Arabs lost. So there.

Now a different form of conflict is being waged, one that gradually erodes Israel's purchase on (former) Palestine and the hearts and minds of foreign observers, but such is geopolitical life.

[ December 13, 2006, 01:09 PM: Message edited by: kenmeer livermaile ]

Posts: 23297 | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Tom_paines_ghost
Member
Member # 3285

 - posted      Profile for Tom_paines_ghost   Email Tom_paines_ghost   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Territorial aquisition by conquest is against international law, and has been since the UN Charter was adopted.

Refugees have the right to return to their homes, under the 4th Geneva Convention.

Successful theft is neither fair, nor square.

Posts: 555 | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Dave at Work
Member
Member # 1906

 - posted      Profile for Dave at Work   Email Dave at Work   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Territorial aquisition by conquest is against international law, and has been since the UN Charter was adopted.

Refugees have the right to return to their homes, under the 4th Geneva Convention.

Successful theft is neither fair, nor square.

Territorial aquisition by conquest is a natural law at least as old as the existance of primates regardless of what the UN Charter says.

As I understand it, the refugees had the option of returning right after the first war and most of them refused it. Those that refused have, in my mind, given up any claim to such a right for themselves and their progeny.

Posts: 1928 | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
starLisa
Member
Member # 2543

 - posted      Profile for starLisa   Email starLisa   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Hannibal:
thats why those Satmer jews are in that conference, and thats why that conference even takes place.

They're Neturei Karta; not Satmar. Even the Satmars, wacky as they are on this topic, have no truck with the NK freaks.
Posts: 2066 | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Jesse
Member
Member # 1860

 - posted      Profile for Jesse   Email Jesse   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Dave, you misunderstand it.

Israel allowed a limited number to return.

Posts: 11410 | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Tom_paines_ghost
Member
Member # 3285

 - posted      Profile for Tom_paines_ghost   Email Tom_paines_ghost   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Rape is "natural law."
Thugocracy is "natural law
Cannibalism
Infanticide.

Bull****e. Natural law my ass.

The pupose of civilization is to overcome such "nature."


gee, wonder if there was any reason why, following WWII, nations might decide that allowing conquest for territorial gain is a bad thing. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm

And since Israels entire claim to existance is the UN partition, they are in poor position to challenge the force of such law.

Posts: 555 | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
kenmeer livermaile
Member
Member # 2243

 - posted      Profile for kenmeer livermaile   Email kenmeer livermaile       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"Rape is "natural law."
Thugocracy is "natural law
Cannibalism
Infanticide."

Either a flat-foot koan or a misshapen haiku?

Posts: 23297 | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Tom_paines_ghost
Member
Member # 3285

 - posted      Profile for Tom_paines_ghost   Email Tom_paines_ghost   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Israel did not allow and has not allowed the refugees to return to their homes, including refugees with title and deed to houses in Israel currently ocupied by Israelis.

[ December 13, 2006, 09:03 PM: Message edited by: Tom_paines_ghost ]

Posts: 555 | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Hannibal
Member
Member # 1339

 - posted      Profile for Hannibal   Email Hannibal   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"And since Israels entire claim to existance is the UN partition, they are in poor position to challenge the force of such law. "

Please dont mistake YOUR entire claim for Israel's existance, with Israel's claim.
Israel dont give a f**k about what/if/how it should exist or not, when that organization start proving its relevance, and fairness concerning the conflict, Israel might change its mind.

Israel will not be the sole blaim for the palestinian refugees situation, and at any rate, Israel is only willing to discuss a closure to the situation under a final peace treaty with the palestinian leadership, why should Israel "give" to the palestinians everything, before any negotiations take place?

Posts: 3495 | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
KnightEnder
unregistered


 - posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
So TPG should we give the US back to the Indians?

KE

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Dave at Work
Member
Member # 1906

 - posted      Profile for Dave at Work   Email Dave at Work   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Apparently some Native Americans think that we should. I recall some lawsuits against property owners a few years back trying to set precedent by laying claim to private property centuries later.
Posts: 1928 | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Tom_paines_ghost
Member
Member # 3285

 - posted      Profile for Tom_paines_ghost   Email Tom_paines_ghost   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
sorry Hannibal, I should have said "Israels only legal claim to the land."

One notes that a country so dependent on anothers charity for survival should not be so crass and lack concern for the good opinion of the world..

And Israel should end it's occupation, and allow the refugees to return=--because then it would no longer have to commit ongoing immoral acts to maintain control and "security." I presume that you actually desire not to do the bad tings that your doing?

KE, Last I checked the USA has aquired no land by conquest since the signing of the UN charter. Which is where international law was ammended to make such practices completly illegal and Illegitimate.

[ December 14, 2006, 10:02 PM: Message edited by: Tom_paines_ghost ]

Posts: 555 | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Hannibal
Member
Member # 1339

 - posted      Profile for Hannibal   Email Hannibal   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Ah, so the world is measured "Before UN" and "After UN"

This is starting to look like the other thread, Every one should do things, Israel should end its occupation, the palestinians should stop launching rockets on Israel, the Iranis, who are over 2000km should stop wanting to wipe Israel off the map.

In your short sighted world, Israel is dependent on charity, but Israel contributes to the world much more then you think. american money, doesnt make the universities in Israel as good as they are, it doesnt make all the private high tech companies in israel, and it doesnt make all the technological advanced made in Israel.

Israel also spends a third of its fiscal budget as payments back to the USA.

look, this is all a major issue, and worth a thread of its own, it has nothing to do with the fact that Iran wants to wipe Israel off the map, and is building the "moral grounds" to it.

Posts: 3495 | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
kenmeer livermaile
Member
Member # 2243

 - posted      Profile for kenmeer livermaile   Email kenmeer livermaile       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
'tain't what'chya say,
It's the way that'chya spray it...

Posts: 23297 | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Tom_paines_ghost
Member
Member # 3285

 - posted      Profile for Tom_paines_ghost   Email Tom_paines_ghost   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
No, the formation of the UN included a new concept in international law, that states aquiring territory through conquest was too dangerous a practice to allow any more.

Israel would not be able to exist without US subsidy, especially of the military machine.

And as noted-the idea Iran is building to launch a nuclear attack on Israel is extremely suspect, although thy may well want to become a nuclear power. What the loss of Israels nuclear monopoly in the region will mean is unclear-but it is inevitable.

I suggest Israel act like a nation that people should not want to destroy, that might help.

Other than that, MAD has proven effective as well.

From what I understand, the rhetoric about Israel is more related to internal politics than to any need to build "moral grounds" for an attack. Given Israels "might makes right" "Facts on the ground" ideology (expressed by you here, as I recall?) and the general consensus amongst anyone Iran gives too figs about that Israel is a criminal country, why wld such a "moral grounds be neccesary?

Posts: 555 | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Tom_paines_ghost
Member
Member # 3285

 - posted      Profile for Tom_paines_ghost   Email Tom_paines_ghost   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Maggies Drawers, Ken.
Posts: 555 | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
kenmeer livermaile
Member
Member # 2243

 - posted      Profile for kenmeer livermaile   Email kenmeer livermaile       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Kenmeer opens yet another Xmas package to find yet another bright red pair of women's underwear. He is dismayed. A week's supply of crimson crotchless panties should be enough for any woman let alone a man. But, forcing a smile, he says, "JUST what I always wanted! You shouldn't have!"

Mama Maggie had always taught him never to look a gift-horse in the mouth. Looking to the bearer of gifts, he said, "You kiss your mama with that?"

Posts: 23297 | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Hannibal
Member
Member # 1339

 - posted      Profile for Hannibal   Email Hannibal   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"that states aquiring territory through conquest "

I think, that Israel didnt aquire territory during conquest.

gaining territory, at a defensive war, is not conquesting.

Tell me, what have Israel done to Iran, that Iran wants it destroyed so much? we are over 2000 km away, two countries apart, and they are not even arabs.

dont you see, that at their current regime, no matter what israel does, Iran will want to destroy it?

Posts: 3495 | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Tom_paines_ghost
Member
Member # 3285

 - posted      Profile for Tom_paines_ghost   Email Tom_paines_ghost   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
BS, conuest is conquest and other than 1973, Israel fought no clearly efensive war. And in that one, they gained no territory.

Odd coincidence, hmm....

Posts: 555 | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Tom_paines_ghost
Member
Member # 3285

 - posted      Profile for Tom_paines_ghost   Email Tom_paines_ghost   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"Tell me, what have Israel done to Iran, that Iran wants it destroyed so much? we are over 2000 km away, two countries apart, and they are not even arabs.

dont you see, that at their current regime, no matter what israel does, Iran will want to destroy it?"

1) Occupy their holy places, oppress and committ crimes against their co religionists? Do you REALLY have to ask?

2) since Israel has not acted to stop their ongoing aggression, nor to make reparations for earlier ones, who knows?

3) Want or not, MAD addresses that quite nicely. "able" and "Are willing to and be destroyed" and"want" are all different issues, do you not think?

Posts: 555 | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Tom_paines_ghost
Member
Member # 3285

 - posted      Profile for Tom_paines_ghost   Email Tom_paines_ghost   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Well gee, Ken. Maybe you should buckle down and try hitting the target istead of shooting wildly.
Posts: 555 | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
kenmeer livermaile
Member
Member # 2243

 - posted      Profile for kenmeer livermaile   Email kenmeer livermaile       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Don't look now but your red panties are simply *riddled*.
Posts: 23297 | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Jesse
Member
Member # 1860

 - posted      Profile for Jesse   Email Jesse   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hey, Oz?

I think someone likes ya [Wink]

Posts: 11410 | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Tom_paines_ghost
Member
Member # 3285

 - posted      Profile for Tom_paines_ghost   Email Tom_paines_ghost   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The idea that Israel will be hated no matter what they do, so they might as well keep on with what they are doing seems flawed.

First, it may not be true.

Second, one of the good things about acting justly i that you are no longer acting UNJUSTLY. It has it's own payoff.

Posts: 555 | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
  This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2   

Quick Reply
Message:

HTML is not enabled.
UBB Code™ is enabled.
UBB Code™ Images not permitted.
Instant Graemlins
   


Post New Topic  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | Ornery.org Front Page

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.7.1