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Author Topic: Palestine/ Israel/ Ethnic Cleansing
TommySama
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Okay, beginning my rough draft. [Eek!]
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TommySama
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The history of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict began long before Israel’s declaration of independence on March 14, 1948. There are wide chasms in the interpretation and response to how it ended up. The results of the War of 1948 have had a huge impact on the world since then; because of this, it is important to understand where the blame lies, if any, for the displacement of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians. To understand this, evaluating differing opinions, as well as comparing evidence from different sources is necessary.
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TommySama
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Leave comments on this for me

due soon !!!

I. Plan of Investigation-
The history of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict began long before Israel’s declaration of independence on March 14, 1948. There are wide chasms in the interpretation and response to how it ended up. The results of the War of 1948 have had a huge impact on the world since then; because of the influence of these events, it is important to understand where the blame lies, if any, for the displacement of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians. To do this, understanding what was happening during the period, evaluating differing opinions, as well as comparing evidence from different sources is necessary.

II. Evaluation of Evidence
Zionism is a political movement which supports the land of Palestine being a homeland for the Jews. This theory manifested itself in the late nineteenth and early to mid twentieth centuries in the form of Aliyahs, or the migration of Jews to Palestine.
From 1915-1916 an exchange known as the MacMahon Correspondence between British and Arab leaders suggested that Arab independence would be granted when the Ottoman Empire was repelled. At the same time the British and French signed the secret Sykes-Picot Agreement, dividing the middle east up between one another as ‘spheres of influence.’ Further complicating the issue in 1917 was the Balfour Declaration, giving Zionists the impression that Great Britain supported the creation of a Jewish state in Palestine.
By the 1920’s both the Arabs and the Jews believed they had the backing of Great Britain, while Britain itself was trying to cover all of the conflicting promises it made in the region. One of the most drastic actions taken by the British at the time was to politically separate the Mandate of Palestine into Palestine (22% of the land) and Transjordan (78% of the land east of the Jordan river.) Jews were legally forbidden to migrate to the area of Transjordan, Britain officially declaring that only the smaller area of Palestine would be open to Jewish immigration. Violence between the growing Arab and Jewish populations spread throughout the region of Palestine. In 1920, an Arab named Haj Amin initiated the first of many riots which resulted in the deaths of several Jews and Arabs. This capitulated in 1929 after Arab propagandists convinced the Arab masses that the Jews wanted to capture a holy Islamic site. After 6 days of rioting (and 135 Jews dead; 350 wounded; and 700 forced to flee) which spread from Jerusalem to neighboring towns Safed and Hebron, the British intervened, resulting in the Passfield White Papers. These papers concluded that restrictions not only on immigration (as was already in effect) but also on Jews land purchases was necessary to create peace. After 10 years of relatively little violence, a general strike of the Arab population in opposition to Jewish migration to Palestine began at the behest of an influential Islamic leader, the Mufti Haj Amin. It escalated into violence which lasted from 1936-1939 killing over 5,000 Arabs, 400 Jews, and 200 Britons.
During World War two violence and illegal immigration of Jews increased until Great Britain lost it’s patience. Britain brought the issue to the newly formed United Nations, giving it a chance to resolve the conflict in Palestine if both the Arab’s and the Jew’s agreed. This was not a realistic goal, but the UN partition plan was recommended and passed by the United Nations on November 29, 1947, anyway. This plan mirrored an earlier ‘Peel Plan’ (introduced by a British commission in 1936) with some minor adjustments. It was based on population figures, not taking into account security and other factors.
The majority of Jews at the time accepted and indeed celebrated the Partition Plan. This was acceptable because many Jews felt it recognized what they had worked so hard to forge over the past 60 years. It was also a fact that hundreds of thousands of Jewish refugees in Europe were without a home and could not enter Palestine while Britain still held the region under Mandate.1 A minority of Revisionist Jews were nearly as opposed to the idea of a Partition as the Arabs were. They believed the Arab Palestine had already been created in Transjordan, and that a partition would not end the violence. There was an almost unanimous opposition to the Partition Plan among Arabs. This was based on the idea that a second state would force relocation of Arabs, that the best land was partitioned to the Jews, and that the Western powers only supported this to rid themselves of guilt from the Holocaust.
Although the Arab-Israeli War officially began the day after Israel declared independence from Great Britain, the battle had been in effect for some time before this.
On February 6, 1948, just months after the UN Partition Plan was recommended, the Arab High Committee stated that it would “never recognize the validity of partition, nor the UN’s authority to implement it.”2 This was coupled with threats by the Palestinian authorities that any action by the Jews to create an independent state would be met with violence.
Both Arabs and Jews began establishing military forces, and violence increased. From this point to about April the first waves of Palestinians migrated from their homes to safer regions. Many left to neighboring Arab nations, and later some moved back to home villages or to highly populated Arab cities.
With guerrilla style fighting going on, the Haganah (the Jewish military force) implemented a new military strategy called Plan Dalet. This plan gave Haganah officers the power to disperse villages believed to be hostile to the Israeli government.
One of the first attempts to use this strategy was in the village of Dayr Yasin. A troop of Irgun (a radical Jewish military group) fought with a group of Palestinians. After the battle was over, some 107-120 civilians were dead. At the time the number was inflated to over 250 for political purposes.
This massacre resulted in striking fear into the minds of Arabs throughout Palestine, and is believed to be a cause of much emigration.

III. Evaluation of Sources
In Right To Exist: A Moral Defense of Israel’s Wars, Yaacov Lozowick defends a position that Jews in Palestine were not to blame for the mass migration of the Arabs during 1948. Lozowick wrote this history of Israel in order to defend Israeli actions since the early days of Zionism. It is meant for students or anybody interested in understanding the conflicts relating to the creation of Israel. Lozowick is a historian from Jerusalem who currently acts a the director of archives at Yad Vashem, Israel’s Holocaust Museum. Right to Exist is an extremely valuable book for understanding the Israeli view of the creation and maintenance of Israel. It is necessary to keep in mind that oftentimes issues are inflated or deflated in order to more smoothly justify certain aspects of the history, and that the bias is inherently in favor of Israel’s innocence.
In Palestinians: The Making of A People, Baruch Kimmerling and Joel S. Migdal outline the history of the Arab’s of Palestine and how they were influenced by the Israeli state. This book is written for those interested in understanding the people of Palestine during the 19th to 20th centuries. Kimmerling is associate professor of sociology at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem and Migdal is chairman of the International Studies Program at the University of Washington. The two authors are able to give social context to the Palestinian Arabs during the early to mid twentieth century. Their bias is in favor Palestinians, and thus they tend to under examine some aspects of the Israeli independence that show Palestinians in a negative light.

IV. Analysis
A key difference between the way Jews and Arabs in Palestine viewed the region before the UN Partition Plan could explain why so man Palestinians ended up as refugees after the 1948 War. Wealthy merchants and other upper class Arabs left the country immediately after Partition, sensing violence would come. Many lower class Arabs moved out of the cities at the outbreak of war to places more comfortable and safe, like home villages. One explanation for this is that the Palestinian nationalist movement was not developed, meaning Arab’s in Palestine felt no real connection to the land, as opposed to Transjordan or any of the other surrounding Arab nations.3 Another explanation is that this migration from cities to hometowns is a defense mechanism for morale purposes.4 This difference is especially interesting when noting that there were no mass migrations of Jews around Palestine at this time.
Just as the UN Partition Plan was adopted, two very different reactions emerged from Palestinian Arab’s and Jews. Jews were overwhelmingly overjoyed at the prospect of having their own state, while the Palestinian’s were violently opposed to the plan. In contrast, the Arab Higher Committee’s spokesman, Jamal Husseini told the United Nations that Arabs would defend the soil of their country “with the last drop of our blood” to prevent Israel’s creation.
Some historians believe that Plan Dalet was introduced to make it easier to evict Palestinians from their homes and villages,5 however it is not widely believed that this was a major cause of Palestinian migration. It is important to keep in mind, however, that the Jews in Palestine were fighting a defensive war, and were only weeks away from being attacked by five surrounding Arab nations (Egypt, Lebanon, Iraq, Transjordan, and Syria.)6
This plan culminated early on in the Dayr Yasin massacre in April 1948. The events are not widely contested, although it is looked upon as a symbol of the war by Palestinians.7 Only about four Irgun soldiers were killed while some 107 to 120 Arab villagers were killed either surrendering, fleeing, or fighting. The disparity in number of deaths suggests massacre. While the Jewish Agency distanced itself from this massacre, saying it was an isolated incident, Palestinians picked up the pace of exodus from Palestine. Later on, as Arab armies fell to a new Israeli offensive, Palestinians kept the image of the Dayr Yasin massacre in their minds, oftentimes fearing retribution to the point that they would flee, joining the already soaring refugee population.8
This fear of Israeli retribution after victory, coupled with the seemingly natural reflex of the Palestinians to move in the face of conflict (military, economic, or otherwise) led to unprecedented numbers of refugees. Even before the fall of Jaffa and Haifa in April and May, tens of thousands of Palestinians fled; after it fell to the Israeli’s tens of thousands more fled along with several hundred thousand from other villages and cities at this same time.9

V. Conclusion

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Jesse
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Where's the conclusion?

It's a great paper so far Tommy.

I wouldn't catagorize the higher potential numbers of the Dair Yasin massacre as "inflated for political purposes" though. I would leave it at "Estimates range from 107 to around 250." and let the reader ponder why the totals vary.

Assigning a motive kind of messes up the flow of an otherwise very fair, non-biased, and accurate paper.

I'm not *accusing* you of bias, I'm just saying that's how the statment pops out at me.

Overall, it's a terrific look at the situation, very impartial, and packs in a lot of information.

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TommySama
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The reason I said the political purposes thing was that was the conclusion of both sources for the historiography. I'll reread it and keep that in mind though. Here's the conclusion.

... oh, and the title of the paper is, "Apartheid: A Partitioning"

props to the ex-prez


CONCLUSION:
Palestinian refugees are, to this day, one of the most hotly contested international issues in Western politics. To get a better grasp of this, it is necessary to look at opposing points of view, and evaluate the bias’s of the authors. Having done this, it can be reasonably said that the majority of Palestinians became refugees because of some Israeli aggressions, but due mostly to the Palestinians lack of commitment to the land. Their abandonment of their homes and villages is not paralleled in the Jewish community, which would be expected as both Jews and Arabs faced violence from one another. Although this issue will perhaps never be resolved, research done into the topic can enlighten and broaden our understanding of the Palestinian refugee problem, so that someday it may be at least partially dealt with.

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RickyB
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You can afford to wait, Tommy [Smile]
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TommySama
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Huh?
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TommySama
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I got an A-

[Big Grin]

Not bad considering I finished it 3 minutes before the class started.

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RickyB
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"Although this issue will perhaps never be resolved, research done into the topic can enlighten and broaden our understanding of the Palestinian refugee problem, so that someday it may be at least partially dealt with."

Someday is nice, but people is dyin' here. [Smile]

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moodi
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quote:

due mostly to the Palestinians lack of commitment to the land.


That is one interesting conclusion. I really have posted many comments on this and other similar discussions, but this line "shocked" me into writing some more.

From the experiences of the elderly who would have no reason to lie to me and who witnessed and experienced the mass exodus from Palestine in 1948, I can tell you that your conclusion is very far from being right.
Two reasons why Arabs fled the way they did then,
1- It was a war of existence to many. The news of massacres in nearby towns (some of the news were highly exaggerated) along with the fear that the destiny of the entire population is in the unknown tends to scare highly illiterate and insanely conservative (there were news of rape) people.
2- Palestinians were fooled by the corrupt leadership of neighboring Arab countries that promised a swift liberation of their land. Many Arab leaders bought their way into office by selling Palestine.

When you inherit your land through tens of generations, and you spend your entire life working in it, you love the land so much that you name your orchards just like you name your own kids. “lack of commitment to the land” is some serious blasphemy to many.

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Everard
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Still sayin the only real solution is going to come when the arab nations, england, israel, and the US get off their duffs and pay to build infrastructure in the west bank and gaza, and pay to relocate the people in refugee camps in the arab world.
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moodi
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Everard,

I agree with you to some degree here. But certain things need to be resolved for all things to be really resolved.

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Everard
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"But certain things need to be resolved for all things to be really resolved."

I doubt it. THe vast majority of refugee problems are solved by simply giving the refugees a home. Right now, palestinians don't have a home. Build them real houses with real roads, real water, real sewage disposal, and the only part of the problem that won't go away is the problem of fanatics who think jews shouldn't be allowed to live in the middle east.

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moodi
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Everard,

"pay to relocate the people in refugee camps in the Arab world."

How is it fair for the Ethiopian Jew to come and live in Israel, but not the Palestinian refugee living 10 miles north of the Border?

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Everard
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"How is it fair for the Ethiopian Jew to come and live in Israel, but not the Palestinian refugee living 10 miles north of the Border?"

How is it fair for jews to have no home nation but arabs to have 22? Israel needs to remain essentially a jewish homeland, because there is no other homeland for jews... no place where jews can say "I know that if things go badly here where I live, there is one place in the world where I can go and know that I will be safe." The last century, heck the last 2 millenia, should prove that jews need a place where they can be safe. Isreal needs to protect that majority... and under international law (As applied everywhere but israel), there is no responsibility for israel to allow palestinians into israel if israel does not want to allow them in.

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moodi
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If you apply your logic to the world today, all the Tylenol in the world wont help.

How is it fair for jews to have no home nation but arabs to have 22?

And how is that the Palestinians' responsibility?

Israel needs to remain essentially a jewish homeland, because there is no other homeland for jews
Yes, there's no other homeland for the Jews, but there's no homeland for Baptists, Mormons, etc... . I have always wanted to believe that a religious identity is no longer a valued asset to citizens of a true democracy.

no place where jews can say "I know that if things go badly here where I live, there is one place in the world where I can go and know that I will be safe."

I still can't find how that is the Palestinians' responsibility.

Isreal needs to protect that majority
In Western democracies - of which Israel is a proud member - there's no such thing as "protecting the majority".

international law (As applied everywhere but israel), there is no responsibility for israel to allow palestinians into israel if israel does not want to allow them in.

So you're saying that Israel bears no responsibility for people who were forced out of their homes on the hands of the Israeli army?

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Jesse
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Everard...

The "one home land to twenty-two" is one of the least valid of the arguments for the existance of Israel as a Jewish State.

How many "African", or "European", or "Asian" Homelands are there? Why aren't Jews, or Basques, or Kurds, or The Rom, entitled to one from one of those areas?

Would Jewish claims to Israel become MORE valid if Saudi Arabia fractured into 30 different states? So you could say "one homeland to fifty one"?

There is NO "Arab Homeland", Everard. If there was, there wouldn't be a refugee problem to resolve. There are twenty-two nations that largely populated by peoples who are part of the Arab branch of the Semitic Cultural Group.

It's an argument that doesn't advance your case, at all. The Trail of Tears was no less a tragedy because "The Indians still had hundreds of Homelands west of the Mississipi".

There are good arguments to be made, but this isn't one of them.

[ March 09, 2007, 07:44 PM: Message edited by: Jesse ]

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RickyB
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22 is a stretch, too. We return to the matter of Arabization Vs. Islamization, and degrees thereof [Smile]
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Everard
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No, jesse, its not a great argument... but neither is "how is it fair to allow the jew from ethiopia to live in israel but not the palestinian 10 miles from the border?"

Every nation gets to set its own immigration policy. That shouldn't even be a question.

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Jesse
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Absolutely. I've never argued Israel should or could be forced to let anyone immigrate.

However, individual property rights are, or ought to be, part of the discussion as well, and the UN called for return *or fair compensation*.

It ought to be clear to everyone involved which of those options is realistic.


quote:
"how is it fair to allow the jew from ethiopia to live in israel but not the palestinian 10 miles from the border?"
It's a silly argument, I agree, but it's the same sort of silliness I hear all the time living in Southern California. Some Mexicans claim they ought to be getting all the legal immigration slots because we stole half of mexico just 50 years after they stole it from the spanish who had started stealing it from indigenous people two hundred years earlier [Smile]

No, what is "fair" immigration policy for a Democracy is whatever the heck it says is fair.

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Everard
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"However, individual property rights are, or ought to be, part of the discussion as well, and the UN called for return *or fair compensation*.

It ought to be clear to everyone involved which of those options is realistic."

Yup. As I said above, a lot of people need to be involved in that compensation though, especially since under international law, the sort of population exchange that took place between israel and the arab worlds is considered to be value neutral. I.E. Israel no longer owes compensation to the 1948 refugees because of the population exchange, under law that is applied to every situation other then israel. And if the palestinians demand compensation, Israel has been compiling how much is owed to the jews who were forced out of the arab nations in 1948-1950, and it far outweighs the value of what was taken from the arabs who left israel in 1947-1949.

But I still think this problem only goes away if israel helps pay to relocate refugees, and for infrastructure. And as such, Israel should offer to pay about 10% of those costs, and the rest should be covered by US, UK, Jordan, Egypt, Iraq, Syria, Saudi Arabia, etc.

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Jesse
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Yeah, everard, once you decide that Palestinians are some how responsible for the actions of "arab" governments that did not represent them, based only on their "arabness".

This is an entirely racist argument, and it sincerely sadness me that you engage in this kind of morally relative rhetoric only in regard to THIS situation.

Leaving the resolution of this situation in the hands of powers which do not want it resolved, and continuing to play hostage with the Palestinian people, is exactly why the mess is what it is.

Stop lumping the goyim into broad and convient groups that do not exist, and drop the collective responsibility arguments.

What Egypt, or Syria, or Lebanon, or anyone else did to Jews living in their territory has no bearing, at all, on the rights of Palestinians to be compensated when deprived of land they held clear title to, especially when the honoring of existing title was a lynchpin in the UN mandate.

It's like saying the US has the right to disregard spanish land grants because Castro nationalized American property in Cuba. It's not just incorrect, it's wrong.

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Everard
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Except that syria, lebanon, jordan, and egypt DID represent the palestinians, jesse. The palestinian people were clamoring to be under those governments, and claimed those nations as their nationality.

"Leaving the resolution of this situation in the hands of powers which do not want it resolved, and continuing to play hostage with the Palestinian people, is exactly why the mess is what it is."

Yes, a lot of arab governments do not want this resolved. Problem is, that israel doesn't owe anyone anything anymore under laws that apply to non-israel situations. If we want a real resolution, its going to have to come from multiple parties. Otherwise, what will likely occur is another israel unilater withdrawal from the portions of the west bank israel no longer wishes to defend, and at that point, israel will be clear from all demands made by UN resolutions, and the palestinians will suffer another 100 years of national tragedy.

[ March 11, 2007, 07:41 PM: Message edited by: Everard ]

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Everard
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"Stop lumping the goyim into broad and convient groups that do not exist, and drop the collective responsibility arguments."

And again, under international law as applied elsehwere, this collective responsibility argument is what exists.

The palestinians circa 1948 were not a palestinian nation, and we can't treat them as if they were if we want to end this dispute.

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kenmeer livermaile
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I tire of hearing 'fair' r 'unfair' about Jewish homeland.

Bull****.

Jews have a homeand now because they worked at it, fought for it, and had some good PR luck come out of the Shoa.

Fair? Romans kicked them out of the *Holy Land* long long ago, fair and temple square.

Arguments between Jews and Palis and proxies or affiliates or sympathizers and detractors thereof, is just so much noise in the wind.

I guess that's why I like starlisa for all that I detest her. While her talk of fair and justice is just more of the same noise in the same wind, she knows that it comes down to who kicks hardest when it comes down to bare-ass brawling, and she expresses this in almost every post of hers.

All the other stuff aside, I like it that the Jews have finally made a stand. It's about time. All that virtual nation crap of the past two milennia made for some unique evolution but lousy statehood.

But I also like it that the Palis have too.

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Everard
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Palistinians definetely need a homeland, no question.

But it won't come unless they somehow manage to get a whole bunch of nations to recognize that those nations owe them something. Israel morally owes something, as do egypt, jordan, iraq, syria, and lebonon in particular from the arab world, and US and UK from the western world. Get those nations to provide for what they morally owe, and we're well on our way to a solution. Try to force more then one nation morally owes, without addressing that other nations owe something, and there won't be a solution.

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kenmeer livermaile
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"Try to force more then one nation morally owes, without addressing that other nations owe something, and there won't be a solution."

I agree. And I say it ain't gonna happen so long as the USA is meddling in Arab affairs while subsidizing Israel.

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Jesse
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There IS no analgous situation, Everard. At least not in the last 100 years.

By the way, Lebanon never expelled it's Jews and siezed their property. When Israel began it's first occupation, well over 40,000 Jews still lived in Beirut. So, off the list and out of your goyim lump with that nation.

The Nationality of the Palestinians in 1948 was "indeterminate". There is no way around that one, either.

Ken, you ought to read about more about what the Frum hiding in our country has to say. See, according to her, the reason that Israel doesn't control the entire Levant, half of Iraq, and the Sinai is that to many Jews aren't following her particular wacky supremacist version of Judiasm. Nothing to do with human ass whup, it's Yahweh doin it all and he'll do a lot more if appeased properly.

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Everard
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"There IS no analgous situation, Everard. At least not in the last 100 years."

Greece/turkey, india/pakistan, right off the top of my head.

"By the way, Lebanon never expelled it's Jews and siezed their property."

Formally expelled? No. Drove out and seized property? Yes. You might want to do more research on that one.

"The Nationality of the Palestinians in 1948 was "indeterminate""

Then why did they call themselves jordanians, for the most part?

Sorry, Jesse. O-3 in that post.

[ March 12, 2007, 08:04 PM: Message edited by: Everard ]

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Everard
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And if the "goyim lump" crap is some kind of attempt to get back at me for something, you might recall I apologized for that and we moved on, like, years ago. If its not an attempt to get back at me, then I'll just go with the theory you're being spoonfed your information by terrorists, and we can have a debate with the premises that I'm a bigot and you like killing jews, and we'll see how that works out for us.

[ March 12, 2007, 08:13 PM: Message edited by: Everard ]

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Jesse
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India/Pakistan is not an analog, because both governments agreed to population transfer.

5-6 thousand Jews in Lebanon in 1948. Nearly Four thousand in 1978. At least google.

"For the most part" is one hell of a stretch.

If you don't like being called on your BS, stop engaging in it, but don't cry about it.

You are what you are, Everard.

[ March 12, 2007, 08:16 PM: Message edited by: Jesse ]

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Everard
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"5-6 thousand Jews in Lebanon in 1948."

Umm. 5-6000 in BEIRUT. Thats not lebanon. About 20,000 in lebanon.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/lebjews.html

Or we could go with wikipedia that says most of the 5000 (your source maybe?) had fled by 1967.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_under_Muslim_rule


"India/Pakistan is not an analog, because both governments agreed to population transfer."

You're right. The palestinians HAD no government in 1948... except for jordan.

""For the most part" is one hell of a stretch."

Not really. Well, you're right. Some of them thought of themselves as egyptians, or lebanese, or saudi.

"If you don't like being called on your BS, stop engaging in it, but don't cry about it.

You are what you are, Everard."

And you've yet to show me anything other then that you want to call the argument racist for no real reason, so I guess that puts you in with the people you yell about who cry "Anti-semitism" when people oppose israel's policies... except you do it the other way "Anti-semitism because you support israel!"

Well, fine, take your arguments that rely on propaganda and sell them to some wannabe terrorists.

[ March 12, 2007, 08:30 PM: Message edited by: Everard ]

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http://www.answers.com/topic/jewish-exodus-from-arab-lands#wp-_note-6

between 5,000 and 20,000 in 1948, with both sources cited.

This survey estimates under 1000 jews in lebanon by 1977.

http://ajcarchives.org/AJC_DATA/Files/1978_14_WJP.pdf

Problem is that lebanon hasn't taken a census since the 30's.

[ March 12, 2007, 08:40 PM: Message edited by: Everard ]

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Jesse
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I said "You are what you are".

What you want to do with that is really your call.

What you are doing right now is arguing against peace. What you are doing right now is ascribing collective guilt. What you are doing right now is disturbing, and it's not right.

You just *might* want to notice that I've never claimed that Jews expelled from anywhere they've ever been expelled from in the last century aren't entitled to financial compensation. They are.

Should we make efforts by holocaust survivors or their heirs to gain restitution contingent upon Israeli compensation for stolen private property?

Arguments about what "the arabs" owe "the jews" or vice-versa ARE RACIST.

Arguments about what the Egyptian Government owes a given man or his heirs holding the title to their siezed shop in Cairo, or what the Israeli Government owes a given man holding his grant of grazing rights near El Baqqar are not.

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"Arguments about what "the arabs" owe "the jews" or vice-versa ARE RACIST."

I've never argued that the arabs owe the jews, anything. That would be you mis-reading what I wrote when I said "arab nations."

As far as I am aware, this has been short-hand for the group of states that are over 95% arabic nationality for, well, decades. Are you saying you have a problem with this common usage?

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"What you are doing right now is ascribing collective guilt."

Actually, no. I'm not. I'm assigning specific guilt to specific governments that have been involved in specific harm. If you choose to read that as collective guilt, because a lot of nations are involved, then thats your choice. But its not what i'm saying, and if you had read this thread with an eye to what I was saying, you'd realize that.

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"I said "You are what you are".

What you want to do with that is really your call."

This is a little disengenous, Jesse, considering exactly how this conversation developed. THe racism word was not mine, originally, it was yours.

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Jesse
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Uh-Uh, Everad.

Not off that particular hook while claiming the property rights of an individual or family are or should be contingent upon the actions of a government or governments of which they are not even citizens.

The Forced Deportation of 50,000 Palestinians admited by Rabin doesn't, in any way, change the right of a forcably deported Jew to compensation, and the forced deportation of 70,00+ Egyptian Jews doesn't affect the right of a Palestinian refugee to just compensation.

If you owe me a debt, arguing that someone else is stiffing you doesn't absolve you of it.

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Jesse
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You are whatever you are, Everard. Possibly a little cryptic, but it's not disengenous.

Calling the argument you are advancing racist isn't calling you *A* racist. They really are two entirely different things.

I'm not interested in defining you.

Would I, for a moment, think that pointing out that your argument is racist would bother you if you were a racist?

I mean, I wear a helmet once in a while, but I'm not *that* sort of special.

[ March 12, 2007, 08:59 PM: Message edited by: Jesse ]

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"The Forced Deportation of 50,000 Palestinians admited by Rabin doesn't, in any way, change the right of a forcably deported Jew to compensation, and the forced deportation of 70,00+ Egyptian Jews doesn't affect the right of a Palestinian refugee to just compensation."

Which is basically why I've said, since the beginning, that Israel should pay part of the costs of infrastructure and relocation for the palestinians... along with all the other nations who owe the palestinians a debt.

What I've been arguing alongside that is that by precedent, Israel should no longer be legally responsible to pay compensation to the palestinians.

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