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Author Topic: Chinese missile destroys satellite in space...
winkey151
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Thanks for nothing, Hughes Electronics and Loral Space & Communications Ltd. I hope you enjoyed the money you got for selling such sensitive technical rocketry data.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk

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DaveS
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Source?
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winkey151
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quote:
Originally posted by DaveS:
Source?

I assume you are asking for a source for the Hughes Electronics and Loral Space & Communications Ltd. comment so here are a couple...

http://www.washingtonpost.com

http://topics.nytimes.com

[ January 19, 2007, 09:10 AM: Message edited by: winkey151 ]

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Colin JM0397
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I'm sure we could just ask Clinton, who signed the approval over the objections of most of his people.

Space arms race, here we go - as if we weren't already there... It's just a bit more in our face now.

This will be interesting to see how this plays out against Bush's words - IIRC mid last year - that the US has a right to deny space access to anyone who looks to use it for offensive military reasons...

Rule number one in warfare: deny the enemy the high ground.

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Everard
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As much as we are focused on fundamentalist islamic terrorism right now, the real threat to our future security and freedom is china... and this is just another in a long line of examples of china flexing its growing long reach military muscle.
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Lyrhawn
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JM -

China would respond to that by saying attacking satellites is not a weaponization of space, it's denying an enemy offensive capabilities in space, which theoretically means they are abiding by the rule.

Eve -

Best way to beat China is to neutralize them economically. I think that means opening up more free trade partnerships with South American and East Asian producers, and, we need much, much closer ties to India. India is going to be our buddy in the future, I really believe that. They're the world's largest democracy, they support our style of economy, and they aren't fans of China. We should be buying as much crap from them as possible.

Eventually someday China is going to claw its way into the first world, and a lot of their advantages are going to disappear. Besides, they are really setting themselves up for serious problems in the future. They're destroying what arable farmland they have to build factories, they're polluting the ever loving hell out of everything, their birthrates are horribly skewed towards boys, which is going to make for some interesting negative population growth in 20 years when there aren't enough females around to produce new Chinese people.

I think the best situation we can hope for in the Middle East is an Iran that falls apart all by itself (which has a decent chance), moderate gulf states, a three state Iraq with a US friendly Kurdistan, fixing the Israel/Palestine thing (which I see as likely in the next 20 years) and a neutral Lebanon and Jordan (Syria is always going to be a problem, but then, militarily they're a joke).

[ January 19, 2007, 09:36 AM: Message edited by: Lyrhawn ]

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Gaoics79
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quote:
As much as we are focused on fundamentalist islamic terrorism right now, the real threat to our future security and freedom is china... and this is just another in a long line of examples of china flexing its growing long reach military muscle.
Not that I'm a big fan of the CCP, but in all fairness, aren't they pretty much dependant on the United States and other western nations economically? And unlike the radical Islamic lunatics, China does not seem to have any virulent evil ideology that would lead it to attack us. (yes, they are communist, but it would seem to be such a watered down strain that it hardly qualifies as a threat to us)

Is it realistic to expect China to become a military threat? I know they pose an economic threat, but why would China seek our physical destruction?

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Everard
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"Not that I'm a big fan of the CCP, but in all fairness, aren't they pretty much dependant on the United States and other western nations economically?"

Maybe. But we're beholden to china economically. They hold a huge percentage of our debt right now.

"Is it realistic to expect China to become a military threat? I know they pose an economic threat, but why would China seek our physical destruction?"

Don't know, but they are the only nation thats capable of catching up to us in the immediate future, militarily, and the only one that will be able to destroy us, militarily.

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Omega M.
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Have we in the U.S. ever shot down anyone else's satellites? If we haven't done so, why do we think China is more likely than we are to do so, given that the U.S. probably looks to the Chinese the way the Chinese look to Americans?
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The Drake
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Enemies? I missed the memo when we declared China our enemy.
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Colin JM0397
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In the PRC Military the USA is "enemy number one".

Not that I don't see why they are doing what they are doing and, actually, think the PRC has a right to develop and expand as they see fit...

They are rational folks over there, albeit a different culture that makes them more difficult to predict than a western culture, but I don't think they want a fight any mroe than we do. However, we tell them how things are going to be in their backyard and we have the force to back it up. I think they are a little tired of US domination of their backyard and are simply positing themselves, not necessarily for a war, but to put themselves as the head honcho in the pacific rim.

How we handle a peer on the superpower stage will dictate if we go to war or not. Accept their growth as inevitable and work to make it peaceful, or act like spoiled brats who get pushed off their spot on the playground?

I think that, more than anything China does, will dictate where we go from here.

BTW, one of the main tenets of the Neocon platform is that no other country can be allowed to challenge the US militarily. Fingers crossed they really are loosing their influence in DC these days.

[ January 19, 2007, 11:44 AM: Message edited by: jm0397 ]

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The Drake
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The US and China are in a state of mutually assured destruction - both economic and military. We are far more cooperative and linked than the USSR and US were. There won't be a war. That doesn't mean we won't both prepare our militaries to be capable, and use each other as measuring sticks.

Ultimately, taking down satellites is primarily a defensive measure. I'd be a lot more worried at news that they were improving the ability to project power beyond Asia. Development of carrier battle groups for example.

They are a far cry from an enemy, merely a potential enemy and definitely a rival.

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Colin JM0397
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For the PRC today, it's defensive.

However, before moving you first blind your enemy - that's also an offensive weapon. Of course, that wouldn't give them a whole lot of a head start to attack the US directly, but would kill our early warning capability for, say, Taiwan.

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Naldiin
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quote:
Originally posted by Everard:
[QB] "Not that I'm a big fan of the CCP, but in all fairness, aren't they pretty much dependant on the United States and other western nations economically?"

Maybe. But we're beholden to china economically. They hold a huge percentage of our debt right now.

They hold a huge percentage of our debt in dollars. So we don't actually have to care. Because the debt is in dollars, and we can simply print new dollars if we need to.

That's the advantage of being able to lend and borrow in your own currency. So China holding our debt shouldn't actually scare us. They can't really threaten us with it, even if they could force us to pay (which they can't).

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Everard
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"They hold a huge percentage of our debt in dollars. So we don't actually have to care. Because the debt is in dollars, and we can simply print new dollars if we need to."

Hyper-inflation is bad.

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martel
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There's already a thread about this on World Watch, if you want to look at it.

We (and the Russians) already have the capability of shooting down a satellite, so in a war with China this just seems like evening out the forces...but our forces are really dependent on satellites (not to mention our intelligence services.) China could literally handcuff our military by shooting down a few satellites, if they wanted to attack, say, Taiwan.

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Tom Curtis
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Martel, destroying satellites would only "handcuff" america's military IF the US has been so stupid as to not have inertial guidance as a back up to GPS for guidance of surface to surface missiles, and do not carry out excercises with GPS turned of on regular basis so that their troops can continue to effectively maneuver without GPS. Even if they have been so stupid, you can be sure both errors would now be corrected. Given that, the only advantage attacking US satellites gives in the short term is to limit intelligence. However, to attack US sattelites would be an act of war against the US. It would only be effective if they attacked British, French, German, Australian, and Japanese satellites so the US had no alternate information. Do you really think China would declare war on the entire western world just to invade Taiwan?

As a general comment (ie, not directed at Martel who obviously recongnises this): there should be absolutely no sense of outrage about this. The US has developed and deployed ASAT missiles already, and only last year tested anti satelite lasers. Whether for offensive or defensive purposes, the US cannot make a principled objection to China developing a military technology it already possesses and is currenty expanding on.

The storm of protest about China's test is unbecoming. Statements like that below are hypocritical while the US has ongoing plans to research the next phase in ASAT technology:

quote:
"The United States believes China's development and testing of such weapons is inconsistent with the spirit of cooperation that both countries aspire to in the civil space area," National Security Council spokesman Gordon Johndroe said. "We and other countries have expressed our concern to the Chinese."
By all means we should negotiate to limit the Chinese development and deployment of such systems, but if we do so without a manufactured sense of moral outrage, we must recognise that such negotiations require quid pro quo. Without the manufactured outrage, they would have a much greater chance of success as well.

[ January 19, 2007, 06:45 PM: Message edited by: Tom Curtis ]

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moodi
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Tom Curtis,

They can take out our TV broadcasting. That's what the U.S government is worried about.

Imagine if every couch potato in this country had nothing to watch. Don't you think that a revolution might follow? If people of this great nation had nothing better to do than looking into the misdeeds of their government, I think the National Security Council should be very worried [Smile] .

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Tom Curtis
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[LOL]
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moodi
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And the Chinese should be worried too, because once we are done with our own government, I think they will have a heavy price to pay for all the Simpson episodes we have missed.
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KnightEnder
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Shoot, if TV went down it would be bad news for the rest of the world. We'd have to find some other way to entertain ourselves. Don't wake the sleeping lion. Ask Japan. Or Saddam.

KE

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