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Author Topic: Joss Whedon
Adam Masterman
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Any fans here? I discovered his work on Astonishing X-Men, which is quite simply the best book on the stands today. I bought and watched Serenity based on the strength of his writing, and liked it a lot. Now I'm thinking of buying some Firefly seasons on DVD. Are they worth it? Anyone else read Astonishing? Am I going to have to swallow my fear of emasculation and watch Buffy? Answers, please! [Big Grin]

Adam

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ssci
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Firefly ruled
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Tezcatlipoca
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Only one season of Firefly. They cancelled the show even though it was brilliant. Buy the show, watch it, and then buy the movie Serenity.

As for Buffy, I have survived resisting it for years, even though I bought my sister the complete season box set for Christmas two years ago. Probably the best present I have ever gotten for her.

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TaoJeannes
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Firefly was an amazingly written series that I thought couldn't possibly be topped until I started watching Battlestar Galactica. Well worth owning.

I hated Buffy, though. I have tons of friends who love it. I just don't get it.

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drewmie
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Firefly is well worth it. My wife and I rented and watched the series, then watched the follow-up movie Serenity. Great stuff.

Buffy and Angel are fun, even well written. But frankly, I never found the series characters very compelling or likeable.

BTW, Serenity was my second introduction to Chiwetel Ejiofor, the actor who played "the Operative." I'd seen him first in Love Actually as Keira Knightley's husband. I've seen him since in Kinky Boots and Children of Men. All four are must-see films. He's a great actor.

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kelcimer
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Firefly is more then worth it. You will not be disappointed.

Whedon's Astonishing is Astonishing. He pulls off what few can achieve. He respects everything that has come before while making it very accessible to new readers. His run instantly became Classic.

Unfortunately, his run on Astonishing is slated to come to an end, but he is picking up another Marvel book called Runaways. The original creative team is leaving of their own volition having told the stories they want to tell. They did such a great job that any team that follows them would be a decline in quality, except that Marvel did something right and tapped Whedon. You can find Runaways collected in trades. If you like Whedon you'll like Vaughn.

I haven't seen much of Buffy, but I did catch a bit of the last season or so of Angel. I was not inclined to get into it, but it sucks you in.

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0Megabyte
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TaoJeannes, I have to agree with Firefly/BSG.

Firefly was the best I'd seen, certainly the best science fiction television I'd seen.

Then came BSG, and after three seasons, you just can't beat the depth and emotion that so many episodes brings.

However, if Firefly had gotten to three or four seasons, instead of the one, I have a feeling it would have surpassed BSG. But it didn't, so BSG IS better... but only due to length, or else they'd be near equal.

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The Pixiest
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Any movie by Joss Whedon will be weaker than any series by Joss Whedon.

Joss's power is in making you love the characters. He doesn't have time to work his magic on screen.

Firefly was an amazing show. I loved every minute of it and I've watched my DVDs more than once.

Buffy was also an amazing show but definately more female oriented than Firefly.

My husband liked Angel better than Buffy. I think guys tend to like that show more... from anecdotal evidence with a larger sample size than just my hubby.

All three shows have Joss's humor. All three shows have Joss's character magic. I highly recommend them all.

I was actually excited when I heard Joss was off of Wonderwoman. I want him working on TV again... but I think Firefly's cancelation broke his heart and all I hear about now is comic books.

drewmie: wow, I didn't even recognize the operative in Children of Men. I think I was too busy feeling depressed and "DOOMeriffic" during that movie.

Tao: BSG is definately worth it as well. I love that show.

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Gaoics79
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quote:
Am I going to have to swallow my fear of emasculation and watch Buffy?
Buffy is probably one of the best shows I have ever seen. The problem with Buffy is that unless you have actually watched a few episodes, you really have no idea what it is about, although plenty of people who have seen bits and pieces of episodes actually mistakenly believe that they do.

Forget what you think you know about it. Just watch 3 or 4 episodes, give it a chance. Keep in mind that this is the show that made Joss Whedon famous. My best friend had exactly the same attitude you have, and now he owns all 7 seasons and ranks it as one of, if not the best shows he has ever seen.

As for Angel, while it may seem more "manly", it's also incredibly boring, due in large part to the lack of charisma of the main character. Angel was a good supporting character on Buffy (which may be saying alot on some other shows, but given the strength of the supporting cast on Buffy, makes him just ordinary), but he cannot sustain a show on his own. Angel is a dim shadow of Buffy, not even in the same league.

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Storm Saxon
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Joss Whedon is going to be writing Runaways, shortly.
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Big C
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Even a stupid caveman like me liked Firefly and Serenity. Firefly is the best sci-fi I've ever seen on broadcast television. A pity FOX didn't have the sense to keep a good thing going.
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Adam Masterman
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jason, you may have sold me on Buffy. Any chance I can get you to be the one to walk into the store and actually buy it? [Big Grin]

Adam

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scifibum
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Firefly was extremely entertaining, and sometimes touching. It's not as perfect as some Whedonites will make it out to be, but for TV, it's really really good. Watch it.
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ender wiggin
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Buffy was great, until she graduated high school and angel left. Then it got ridiculous and i stopped watching. Also, Xander got totally un-hot, probably because i was the only person who thought he was hot in the first place.
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simplybiological
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Buffy Season 1 is lame, after that it's great. 6 is my favorite.

Likewise, Angel is AWFUL in season 1, and becomes amazing afterward.

Firefly rocks.

This is one of the rare occasions when I'll let my nerd show.

Anyone else watch Wonderfalls? It was on TV for like, 4 seconds. Tim Minear, who was affiliated with Joss, is the producer.

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TommySama
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To get off topic a little, because I don't want to start another thread...

Has anybody been watching the new season of 24? Oh MAN is that intense!

Think you had a messed up childhood? Try being Jack Bauer's little brother.

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Adam Lassek
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Honestly I thought Buffy got better after Highschool. I would say Season 5 is my favorite.

Adam, don't let the first season turn you off to the show! I am warning you right now, it is terrible. Buffy came in as a mid-season replacement, so the first season is mercifully a shorter one that usual, but I think they didn't have the time to prepare for it that they needed. The last episode was pretty good, and it gets WAY better from there. You'll be hooked by half-way through season 2.

[ February 07, 2007, 01:55 AM: Message edited by: Adam Lassek ]

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Adam Lassek
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quote:
Anyone else watch Wonderfalls? It was on TV for like, 4 seconds. Tim Minear, who was affiliated with Joss, is the producer.
Wondefalls was awesome. I loved that show. Tim Minear is the next best thing to having Joss back on television. I'm hopeful regarding Minear's new show, Drive -- although it's on Fox so it'll probably be cancelled. The thought of Nathan Fillion starring in a show with Minear again has me pretty excited.
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Tristan
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Wonderfalls was great. And although only a few episodes were aired on its original television run, the 13 episodes actually filmed constitute a reasonably satisfying story arch. So I definitely recommend buying the dvd.

Put me down as another guy who is a big fan of Buffy. I'll second those who've said that you can't get an accurate appreciation of what Buffy is all about by seeing a couple of random episodes. Its strengths definitely lies in its story archs and characterization. While the first season isn't the best (although it has a couple of good episodes) you should definitely start from the beginning. If you haven't begun loving the show by the last third of the second season, perhaps it isn't for you.

As for Angel... I like it, although not quite as much as Buffy. And it has a couple of points in the series where the story, in my view, is dipping in quality. For a complete Buffy experience it should however be watched concurrently as there are a couple of cross-over episodes; i.e. start watching Angel season 1 with Buffy season 4, and so on.

Firefly has got enough promotion as it is...

[ February 07, 2007, 05:37 AM: Message edited by: Tristan ]

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simplybiological
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Angel seasons 4&5 are fantastic...

I think 6 is my favorite Buffy season, but I'm usually in the minority on that one. It has "Once more with Feeling"! A theater here that serves alcohol and food during movies has a Buffy Sing-a-long fairly often. It's great fun.

What season is "Hush" in? Four? I think it's Four.

I have Wonderfalls on DVD- also Sports Night, which is an Aaron Sorkin brainchild from a few years ago.

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drewmie
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Sports Night. One of my favorite shows. But it had no audience. Women weren't going to tune into a show called "Sports Night," and men who did because of the title would be very disappointed. It's basically for people who appreciate the great, intelligent, witty writing you only find on things like The West Wing (another Aaron Sorkin child). One of my favorite Sports Night quotes:
quote:
Isaac (Robert Guillaume) speaking on the air: Thank you, Casey. Exaudio, Comperio, Conloquor. That's a Latin phrase that translates: To Listen, To Learn, To Speak. Those words are carved into the stone arches that form the entrance to the undergraduate library at Tennessee Western University. The stones themselves were hauled to the site by an elite delegation from the Army Corps of Engineers. What made this group elite was that its members were drawn from the Delaware 44th Rifle Battalion and the Tennessee 14th: The Tennessee Volunteers. They worked together on one of the first post-war restoration projects. The building of a college. This afternoon, an extraordinary young man named Roland Shepard made what had to have been an excrutiating decision. He said he wasn't playing football under a Confederate flag. Six of his teammates then chose not to let Shepard stand alone. I don't know how many people witnessed this spectacle, but it was a sight to see. Seven men, the oldest of them not yet 21 and all of them knowing full well the potential consequence of their actions. And I choose to join them at this moment. In the history of the South, there's much to celebrate. And that flag is a desecration of all of it. It's a banner of hatred and separation. It's a banner of ignorance and violence and a war that pitted brother against brother, and to ask young black men and women, young Jewish men and women, Asians, Native Americans, to ask Americans to walk beneath its shadow is a humiliation of irreducable proportions. And we all know it. Tennessee Western has produced some outstanding alumni in the last hundred years. People of wisdom and vision. Strength and compassion. One of them is Luther Sachs. Luther Sachs owns Continental Corp, which owns the Continental Sports Channel, which you're watching right now. Luther Sachs is a generous alumni contributor to Tennessee Western with a considerable influence over its Chancellor, Davis Blake, and its Board of Trustees. Luther, you've got a phone call to make. You've got to call Chancellor Blake and tell him to take down that flag or he can stop looking for your checks in the mail. You've got to put these young men back in a classroom, and I mean pronto. These boys are gonna make you proud one day, Luther. I challenge you to do the right thing. Not an unreasonable request to make of a man whose alma mater declares Exaudio, Comperio, Conloquor. To Listen, To Learn, To Speak. In the meantime, God go with you, Roland Shepard and you six Southern Gentlemen of Tennessee. God's not done with any of you yet.
Such writing didn't win any friends in the sports-obsessed South. But if your more interested in great dialogue than hearing your own ideology, Sports Night was great. Okay, just one more:
quote:
Jeremy: Yeah. Bob and Eddie were using the IR-50 Recon by Bushcomber. It's got a sixteen-inch microgrooved barrel with 30-30 mags, side-scope mount, wire-cutter sheath, quick-release bolt, mag catches and a three pound trigger. So I figured we must be going after a pretty dangerous duck. We shot a deer. (pause) In the woods near Lake Mattatuck on the second day. There was a special vest they had me wear so that they could distinguish me from things they wanted to shoot, and I was pretty grateful for that. Almost the whole day had gone by, we hadn't gotten anything. Eddie was getting frustrated and Bob Shoemaker was getting embarrassed. My camera guy needed to re-load so I told everybody to take a ten minute break. There was a stream nearby and I walked over with this care-package Natalie made me. I sat down and when I looked up I saw three of them; small, bigger, biggest. Recognizable to any species on the face of the planet as a child, a mother and a father. Now, the trick in shooting deer is you gotta get 'em out in the open. And it's tough with deer, 'cause these are clever, cagey animals with an intuitive sense of danger. You know what you have to do to get a deer out in the open? You hold out a twinkie. (pause) That animal clopped up to me like we were at a party. She seemed to be pretty interested in the twinkie, so I gave it to her. Looking back, she'd have been better off if I'd given her the damn vest. And Bob kind of screamed at me in whisper, "Move away!" The camera had been re-loaded and it looked like the day wasn't gonna be a washout after all. So I backed away, a couple of steps at a time, and closed my eyes when I heard the shot. Look, I know these are animals, and they don't play bridge and go to the prom, but you can't tell me that the little one didn't know who his mother was. (pause) That's gotta mean something. And later, at the hospital, Bob Shoemaker was telling me about the nobility and tradition of hunting and how it related to the native American Indians. And I nodded and I said that was interesting while I was thinking about what a load of crap it was. Hunting was part of Indian culture. It was food and it was clothes and it was shelter. They sang and danced and offered prayers to the gods for a successful hunt so that they could survive just one more unimaginably brutal winter. The things they had to kill held the highest place of respect for them, and to kill for fun was a sin. (pause) And they knew the gods wouldn't be so generous next time. What we did wasn't food and it wasn't shelter and it sure wasn't sports. It was just mean.
Isaac: (long pause) Jeremy... why didn't you tell us how you felt about hunting when we gave you this?
Jeremy: Because you told me you spoke to Mark Sabath at USA Today.
Isaac: Yeah, but what --
Jeremy: In fact I know you must have spoken to him before you ever hired me.
Isaac: Well, of course I did. I also spoke to Dave Heller at the Free Press and Tom Monahan at the Sacramento Bee.
Jeremy: And they all said pretty much the same thing.
Isaac: Yes, they all said that Jeremy Goodwin was a bright guy with a world-class understanding of popular sports but that he didn't quite fit in and there was little chance that he'd advance in their organization.
Jeremy: Due respect, Mr. Jaffee, but I have $80,000 in college loans to pay back. My instincts told me to shut the hell up and do what I was told.
Isaac: Your instincts were wrong.
Jeremy: Not fitting in is how qualified people lose jobs.
Isaac: Yeah, but a lot of the time it's how they end up working here. Now, you had an obligation to tell us how you felt. Partly because I don't like getting a phone call saying I put one of my people in the hospital. But mostly because when you feel that strongly about something you have a responsibility to try and change my mind. Did you think I would fire you simply because you made a convincing argument? It's taken me a lot of years but I've come around to this: If you're dumb, surround yourself with smart people. And if you're smart, surround yourself with smart people who disagree with you. I'm an awfully smart man and Mark Sabath is an idiot. He had you and he blew it. You're gonna do great here, but you gotta trust us. You fit in on your own time. When you come to work for me you show up to play. (pause) I'm going home. (gets his coat) You don't know us very well. So if it's hard trusting us at the beginning, maybe it'll help to know that... we trust you. Good night.

Firefly, Sports Night, and My So-Called Life are probably my top three TV shows that got canceled quickly.

[ February 07, 2007, 10:09 AM: Message edited by: drewmie ]

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The Pixiest
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I'd also recommend Wonderfalls. Great show, funny, touching, and they knew they were canceled so they could tie everything up. Only 4 shows ran on the network but they've been in re-runs on other channels. It's simpler to just buy the DVD.

The gentleman (Bryan Fuller, Now attached to Heroes) who did Wonderfalls also did a series on Showtime that ran for two seasons called Dead Like Me. I also highly recommend that one. Unfortunately you're left wanting more because they figured they'd be back for a third season... But Showtime canceled it for not being gay enough. (seriously) It centered around a young woman who died and became a Reaper and now must reap other people's souls. It shows her adjusting to unlife as well as her families adjustment to her death.

People keep bringing up my favorite TV shows =)

Tommysama: I mentioned that to my hubby too, about what it must have been like to be jack's little bro. I'm sure he learned all his lovely torture techniques on Gray. Maybe that's why Gray's so messed up.

(edit: OI! Spelling!)

[ February 07, 2007, 11:57 AM: Message edited by: The Pixiest ]

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Gaoics79
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Hush was season 4, and actually was nominated for an emmy. As for Once More with Feeling, that was the high point of season 6, which in my view was the worst of the series. Still, I love the music for that show. Other shows have done whacky musical crossover gimmics, but only Joss Whedon was talented enough to make it GOOD.

To me, Buffy peeked at season 3, so somewhat agree with others who say it got worse after high school. Still, season 4 and 5 were awesome by any standard. I pretty much cried at the end of season 5.

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The Pixiest
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Jason: as I like to say, the best episode of Buffy (Once More With Feeling) is in the worst season (6).

Three is probably the best season because I love Faith and I love The Mayor. But seasons 2 and 5 are right on it's heels.

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KnightEnder
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Joss Whedon is a genius! Every thing I've ever seen him do was great. Including Buffy which was better than Angel. (Except for maybe at the end when Spike joined the show.)

Jason, I've got that show on a CD and I listen to it all the time. Gile should have been allowed to sing more. Did you see the one where he was singing in the bar on an acustic guitar? "No one knows what it's like..."

KE

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Drewmie, I loved Sports Night.

KE

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KnightEnder
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I love Faith, too! The one where she bangs Zander, "The Zepo", is one of the best. And I loved the mayor, also, but not in the same way I loved Faith.

KE

[ February 07, 2007, 02:28 PM: Message edited by: KnightEnder ]

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scouser1
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quote:
Originally posted by ender wiggin:
Buffy was great, until she graduated high school and angel left. Then it got ridiculous and i stopped watching. Also, Xander got totally un-hot, probably because i was the only person who thought he was hot in the first place.

Quite right. After the first few seasons it just got boring, went completely downhill, and Buffy lost her dress sense! I mean, in that episode where her new roommate is a soul sucker and the roomate ends up being sucked back to her world? I mean, what was with Buffys 3-quarter-length, bright orange pants?? They would even look stupid and out of place on a clown, never mind her!! It makes me cringe just to watch some of the fashion diasters in these episodes, someone ought to have called the fashion police because she was definately commiting a crime wearing those pants!!

Also, I thought Angel was way better looking, especially when he was evil! [Razz]

[ February 07, 2007, 02:26 PM: Message edited by: scouser1 ]

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simplybiological
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I love season 6 of Buff. I remain steadfast.

I prefer the more witty banter aspect of Sports Night, though the longer sincere things Drewmie posted are great.

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Adam Lassek
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quote:
I love season 6 of Buff. I remain steadfast.
Season 6 is really kind of a mixed bag. High highs and low lows. In my opinion the nerds were the lamest villians in the entire series... but the arc at the end about Willow (I'm trying really hard not to include spoilers here) was really good. In fact, Willow has the longest, and most interesting, character developement of any in the series.

I think the lack of direction can be directly attributed to the fact that it was filmed the same year Whedon was doing Firefly (in addition to Angel), so he was hardly present on the set.

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Adam Lassek
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quote:
And I loved the mayor, also, but not in the same way I loved Faith.
Oh man, I almost forgot about the Mayor. He is by far the best villian in the entire Buffyverse. I remember one scene in particular, when he opens a cabinet in his office. It's full of all sorts of evil occult items, and right in the middle of all that is a box of wet wipes. Kinda summed up the character in that one moment.
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simplybiological
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If you listen to Joss talk about season 6, it's "Life is the Big Bad," which I think is a fantastic villian. I didn't ever really like the mayor.

I didn't care for the nerds, per se, but there is a humanity in that season (the nerds, Xander's role in the finale, Willow, etc) that is absent in some of the others.

FWIW, Cordelia goes through a really fascinating character arc in Seasons 1-4 of Angel.

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NobleHunter
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The thing I find the most entertaining about Angel is that in the first season of Buffy he looks like a barely-legal gay porn star. But by the end his show he looks like a getting-to-middle-aged executive, isn't he supposed to be vampire? [Razz]
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Adam Lassek
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quote:
The gentleman (Bryan Fuller, Now attached to Heroes) who did Wonderfalls also did a series on Showtime that ran for two seasons called Dead Like Me.
I didn't care for Dead Like Me, and I really really tried to like it. See my Amazon review for a detailed assessment.
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Adam Lassek
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quote:
FWIW, Cordelia goes through a really fascinating character arc in Seasons 1-4 of Angel.
It's true, they took a pretty 2-dimensional character and gave her depth. I'll never forgive them for what happened to her in season 4, though.
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simplybiological
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Noble
Yeah, David Boreanez got what I like to call, "the Barbituate Bloat." Still hot though. I actually prefer him on the beefy side.

Adam-
I dig Dead Like Me, though it's a little shallow. And what they did to Cordelia is not near as bad as what Wesley has to go through daily after the Fred/Illyria situation. Wesley has good growth, too- I love tortured Wesley.

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NobleHunter
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It took me quite awhile to connect Wesley on Angel to Wesley on Buffy, since I didn't see the early seasons of Buffy until after I'd started watching Angel. I'm still surprised at how different he became, I'm not sure I've ever seen another character change that much. Even Cordelia wasn't that extreme, though still quite profound.

All in all though I think I like Faith the best though, she was an excellent foil for Buffy. Like Picard and Q.

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Gaoics79
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Hey, no one has mentioned Spike, one of my favourite characters on the show.

To me, Angel was boring, more of a hook for the swooning teenage girl set. The reason for this, (aside from the fact that David Boreanz is a terrible actor) is because we don't get to see Angel develop at all. His character arc, in other words, everything interesting that was ever going to happen to him, was pretty much finished by the time he shows up in season 1. He's just so jaded. There's really only one surprise left for him, which we get to see in season 2, and then he wisely leaves the show.

By contrast, Spike, in addition to being played by a wayyyy better actor, is just so much more fun and interesting. He's at the beginning of his character arc. Everything interesting that happened to Angel (that we never got to see except in quick flashbacks to the 1800's) is happening to Spike right here and now. His character arc from season 2 all the way to the end of season 7 is, in my opinion, a much more meaningul and dramatic one than even Willow's.

And Spike is just so cool. He has the best one-liners.

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TaoJeannes
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quote:
Originally posted by drewmie:
Sports Night. One of my favorite shows. But it had no audience.

I agree. Great dialogue. Not funny, but still poignant in a away I can't quite put my finger on.
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Funean
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I loved Spike. Of course, we're meant to. And I liked Willow till she got all super-witch (i.e., stopped being a geek), and always found Xander skeevy. Great show. Angel was entertaining in the beginning (Cordelia has always been a favorite of mine) though I was sorry that they killed Doyle (who is apparently actually dead now, of alcoholic excess). Got truly stoopit toward the end, though. And Angel himself totally beats Al Gore out for the "made of wood" prize.
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