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KnightEnder
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All the major black political figures are upset that Bush called Obama "articulate"! That is insane. Barak is articulate by any standard. Especially by Bush's standards! If he'd said an NBA basketball player was "articulate" I could understand the problem as most of them can't speak in proper English at all. But as much as I hate Bush he was giving Barak a compliment.

Even Joe Biden's "clean" comment was more along the lines of "clean-cut" than "most blacks are dirty apes". Though I can see a reason for their being upset about Biden's comment.

As long as blacks keep the chip on their shoulder we will never have racial harmony. As long as they can't forget they are black, and as long as they insist on reminding everybody every chance they get that they are black, we will never have racial harmony.

KE

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Everard
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As long as whites are shocked when blacks are articulate, we won't have racial harmony...
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KnightEnder
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Nobody was "shocked" that Obama was articulate. You rabal rousing pinko liberal.

KE

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DonaldD
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What are you two talking about?
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MattP
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Politics as usual. Kerry got nailed for his gaff about Bush, now Bush is getting the same for his comment about Obama. The criticism is manufactured and manipulative in both cases, but since when was that a problem for Washington?
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PanHeraclitean
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Source Please!

Personally I think that the label white and black make a divide in itself. It's the same with ethnic labels. They are uses by people simultaneously as mark of pride and derision.

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KnightEnder
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Don, Bush said Obama was "articulate" and the black community as taken that as a racial slur.

My wife says he should have known better after Biden got hammered for calling Obama "clean", that Bush should have been smarter, but since when has anybody accused Bush of being smart?

KE

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Dave at Work
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Does anyone have a link to the comment and it's context? A video would be best, but a transcript would be good as well.

Ev, I am white and I don't recall ever being shocked that a person with some other pigmentation was articulate. Yes, I am only one white person, but most white people that I know are also not shocked when a non-white person is articulate. Maybe it is different in the big city, but here in Small Town Middle America I actually see much less racism than I ever saw in the big cities I have visited or lived in.

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Everard
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"Ev, I am white and I don't recall ever being shocked that a person with some other pigmentation was articulate. Yes, I am only one white person, but most white people that I know are also not shocked when a non-white person is articulate."

I don't disagree with you. I was mostly making a comment on KE's original comment. I think its ridiculous to attribute the race problem in america to blacks identifying as blacks.

"but here in Small Town Middle America I actually see much less racism than I ever saw in the big cities I have visited or lived in."

I tend to see it the reverse, and I know my cousins (mulatto) have all moved OUT of the suburbs and small towns in the midwest into the cities, because of how bad the racism was in those small towns.

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moodi
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Do people enjoy being victims?
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0Megabyte
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Generally.
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KnightEnder
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quote:
*

FNC

Bill O'Reilly, Host, "The O'Reilly Factor"

Senator Barack Obama's poll numbers are falling. On January 17th, a Rasmussen survey had him tied with Hillary Clinton among Democrats in a presidential preference poll. Two weeks later Senator Clinton was 14 points up on Senator Obama. Now that tells me two things. First, that Senator Obama did not effectively seize the day after the first round of gushing media coverage. He didn't get his message out to the folks. He avoided us and many other programs that he could have used to define himself.

And, second, these word controversies are actually hurting Obama. You will remember another presidential hopeful, Senator Joseph Biden (D-Delaware) said this:

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOSEPH BIDEN (D-DE), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: You've got the first sort of mainstream African-American, who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy. I mean, it's — that's a storybook, man.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

Now the word, "clean" cleaned Biden's clock. And it should have. Even though the senator meant no harm, you can't use the word "clean" to describe a person and not expect questions to be raised. That would be like saying an Irish guy like me was "sober." You don't think every Irish person in the world would say, "what!"?

Now Senator Obama didn't hammer Biden, showing real class. But the situation unsettled a lot of people. Then President Bush sat down with FNC's Neil Cavuto.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NEIL CAVUTO, HOST, "YOUR WORLD WITH NEIL CAVUTO": How do you think the troops would feel about a President Obama?

BUSH: Oh, I don't know. He hasn't gotten elected yet. He hasn't even got the party's nomination. He is an attractive guy. He is articulate. I have been impressed with him when I've seen him in person. But he's got a long way to go to be president.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

Yes, when I saw that, everybody in the newsroom saw it, nobody paid any attention. But the next day some African-Americans said using the word "articulate" was condescending to blacks. Again, the reaction on the part of many white people was, "What?" — We thought it was compliment.

The "articulate" debate demonstrates the divide that still exists between black and white America. And it is my belief that that kind of gulf does not help Barack Obama or any other black candidate. The No Spin truth is that some white people feel uneasy because they don't want to offend blacks and are confused by the divide, so they disengage.

For any politician to get elected to high office, there has to be a comfort level with the folks. So these controversies, even though not the fault of Senator Obama, have hurt him. They've also set back racial harmony a bit. I believe that's temporary — but it's there.



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PanHeraclitean
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They can scapegoat their problems on being a victim. It's a cyclical problem.
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Jesse
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I actually took Bidens comment to mean that Obama hasn't got Jacksons problems with young ladies on the side or Sharptons problem with false rape allegations.

I thought he meant "politically clean".

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Jesse
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Gotta love the "No Spin" take on Bidens comment, though.

(I swear, here and now, that if Biden gets the nomination I'm voting Peace&Freedom.)

Bush gets the benefit of the doubt, but Biden saying that Obama is both mainstream and articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy is something that Black Folks ought be offended by.

Why do you watch this guy agian, KE?

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LoverOfJoy
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Yeah, I took his comments that way, too. Clean = no political dirt on him. But I can see how some might take offense at how he said Obama was the first sort of mainstream african american that had those qualities.

With Bush's comments, I didn't even see that, though. His comments couldn't in any way imply that other blacks don't have those qualities.

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Dave at Work
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quote:
"but here in Small Town Middle America I actually see much less racism than I ever saw in the big cities I have visited or lived in."

I tend to see it the reverse, and I know my cousins (mulatto) have all moved OUT of the suburbs and small towns in the midwest into the cities, because of how bad the racism was in those small towns.

My step sister's 11 year old daughter is half black and half white. She has black, white, asian, and hispanic friends, and so far as I am aware hasn't had racial problems at school or elsewhere. Now, she does go to a Catholic school, so maybe there are elements that she isn't exposed to that she would be in the public schools. Of course both your examples and mine are annecdotal.
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Rallan
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Yeah Biden's comment was a classic bit of foot-in-mouth action, since it can basically be paraphrased as "Hey check it out, the guy's clean and articulate even though he's black!". The folks making a fuss about Bush are clearly just talking out of their asses though, since anyone who managed to pass remedial English Comprehension should be able to tell that Bush is just sizing up Obama's ability as a presidential candidate to do well in public appearances.
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Dave at Work
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I don't see anything wrong with how Bush's comment was worded.

Hypothesis: Individuals that have been sensitized to a particular context of viewing things will be predisposed to view everything in that context.

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Funean
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To an extent.

I still get looks of shock when people find out I'm from West Virginia, and I'm usually able to bite back remarks like "Boy howdy, these shoe thangs y'all got up hyar shore are nifty! And this indoor plumbing stuff is neat too!"

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Dave at Work
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I'm pretty sure we had indoor plumbing when I lived in West Virginia for 3 years as a kid. We may have brought our shoe thangs with us from new England though. [Wink]
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winkey151
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I think when Biden said... "I mean, it's — that's a storybook, man." that was the most offensive thing that was said. Like it is only in a story book where people who are black are also articulate, bright, clean and nice-looking.

As for the articulate part... it seems to me that white people use the word articulate about anyone who is good at speaking.

I know if you google articulate right now, you will get a bunch of hits about the Obama thing.... but if you can get back far enough, you will find many articles talking about how articulate Bill Clinton was compared to George Bush.

I wonder if they think, when people mentioned that over and over, that it wasn't a compliment to Clinton?

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Big C
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Don't judge a book by the color of its skin. OK?
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TommySama
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"I thought he meant "politically clean"."

No, i think he meant clean cut. I would give him the benefit of the doubt that he isn't a full blown racist, but I wouldn't be surprised at, or offended, if he still thinks of blacks and whites a little differently. I imagine if he was really racist he would be better at hiding it.


As far as Bush's quote goes, after reading his comment I don't see any way of thinking that was racially disparaging, especially from Bush [Wink]


"They can scapegoat their problems on being a victim. It's a cyclical problem."

How is it a problem when, after being so pumped up at being black this month, they have a special class period presentation for black history month. The focus? Insulting white people and then running around in the halls screaming "BLACK POWER!"

I love good old fashioned racial double standards.

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potemkyn
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Would you describe a white candidate as articulate? or would you say he/she was eloquent?

Articulate rings of, "can talk appropriately," which is something which is apparently a finer trait of Obama. When there is much more to than the man than his ability to speak in complete and complex sentences and that is all that is talked about, some people begin to wonder why that's being discussed so much.

Now, it could be that Obama being 'articulate' is an issue because he doesn't have any substance. He has no platform but can talk well. Or perhaps its because there is some surprise at the speaking abilities of a black leader. I don't know. The whole thing seems silly, but at the same time it seems almost patronizing.

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potemkyn
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"How is it a problem when, after being so pumped up at being black this month, they have a special class period presentation for black history month. The focus? Insulting white people and then running around in the halls screaming "BLACK POWER!"

I love good old fashioned racial double standards."

Yeah, kind of like the double standard that has the only time blacks are represented in history as anything more than victims or violent criminals coming 1 month a year.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by DonaldD:
What are you two talking about?

Bush said that Barak Obama was articulate, and Ev said that means that Bush was "shocked when blacks are articulate." Anything but admit that Bush was shocked that a Democratic presidential candidate was articulate. Probably feeling relieved that he won't have to run against him.
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Rallan
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quote:
Originally posted by potemkyn:
Would you describe a white candidate as articulate? or would you say he/she was eloquent?

Articulate rings of, "can talk appropriately," which is something which is apparently a finer trait of Obama. When there is much more to than the man than his ability to speak in complete and complex sentences and that is all that is talked about, some people begin to wonder why that's being discussed so much.

Now, it could be that Obama being 'articulate' is an issue because he doesn't have any substance. He has no platform but can talk well. Or perhaps its because there is some surprise at the speaking abilities of a black leader. I don't know. The whole thing seems silly, but at the same time it seems almost patronizing.

In Bush's case I just chalk it up to the word "eloquent" not being in the man's vocabulary. And if it is he probably won't use it anyway because it sounds French [Smile]
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Pete at Home
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every time these race-baiting bastards pull one of these stunts, our language gets a little poorer. "Articulate" is now an insult, "niggardly" is a racial slur ...
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canadian
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I think Obama is right in hanging back for the present. The primaries are a loooong way off, no point in blowing your load three weeks after you announced you were looking in to the possibility of running. Keep the public guessing until it's go time.
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canadian
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...and your political adversaries...
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Pete at Home
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"Eloquent" is less of a compliment to most red-state Americans, associated with "style without substance;" the term would make people suspicious. They think of Clinton as "eloquent," and they associate the term with slick. "Articulate" was the high praise. Don't those language-destroying losers realize that Bush isn't running again?
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Gaoics79
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I remember Chris Rock did a great bit about how white Americans were so gaga over Collin Powell because he was "articulate". I don't remember exactly how it went, but it was something to the effect of "well what did you expect, for him to come in talking like some gangster?".

I can see how some people might take the articulate comment as being pretty patronizing.

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KnightEnder
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Rallan, [Smile]

Potemkyn, yeah, and it's the shortest coldest month of the year! (in case 'they' wanted to have a parade)

KE

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DaveS
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You can come from Texas and still be eloquent. I remember Barbara Jordan, who gave the keynote address at the 1976 Dem Convention. Not only was she Texan, but she was black, female and bound to a wheelchair. Her voice carried her far much farther than her legs ever could have.
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Omega M.
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Yes, I'm not sure why, but to me "articulate" connotes "pronounces words correctly and precisely" more than "has great rhetorical skill." Maybe "articulate"'s meaning of "jointed, as in a body part" makes me associate it first with the physical components of speaking.

Oddly, if Bush has said Obama was a "good speaker" I would have assumed Bush was talking about Obama's ability to inspire his audience, and that Bush was mentioning this to call attention to Obama's lack of other political accomplishments.

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Colin JM0397
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Since I cannot think of a single dirty, poorly dressed, or not clean cut Senator, Congressperson, or high level politician, saying someone is clean cut in national politics is so common it never needs stated. Clean cut applies to them all. IMO, if he was talking about that he would probably have said something about being immaculately dressed or something like that.

Seems the politically clean remark is the most likely candidate.

However, I am somewhat encouraged Biden is getting some flack for this. It is pretty condescending what he said, and it's nice for a Dem/Liberal to not get a pass on the dem/liberal form of patronizing, condescending racist remarks as they usually do.

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DaveS
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quote:
Oddly, if Bush has said Obama was a "good speaker" I would have assumed Bush was talking about Obama's ability to inspire his audience, and that Bush was mentioning this to call attention to Obama's lack of other political accomplishments.
Or to the fact that Obama says things he doesn't agree with. So, he couldn't bring himself to praise the content of what Obama says, but only the manner.

Imaginary exchange at a debate between Bush and Obama:

O: We must never turn away from the passionate cries of the poor for relief from their suffering.
B: Bravo, O! You are really articulate for a man in your condition. Now, as I was saying, poor folks need to get themselves...

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Richard Dey
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KE:

As long as blacks keep chips on both shoulders, we will never have racial harmony.

The modern black created a whole new era of negrophobia, in my book -- just like the homoists created a whole new era of homophobia. Whoa! And I think Israel has created a whole new era of Judaeophobia! And I know modern feminism has created a whole new era of gynophobia, and Erin Pizzey taught me that.

Boy, back in the good ol' days, when straight white men ruled the world, nobody dared pick on them except each other!

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LoverOfJoy
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quote:
Would you describe a white candidate as articulate? or would you say he/she was eloquent?
Probably both. After reading your explanation I'd agree that eloquent is probably the better word in most circumstances, but I'm NOT eloquent enough to be that nuanced in my off-the-cuff conversations with people. I'm sure I often use one word when another would probably be much closer to what I was getting at. I think honest people that are trying to give me the benefit of the doubt would understand what I'm trying to get at. I'm sure that people already suspicious of me might very easily take it the wrong way (and I'll admit I'd be at least partly at fault) but I imagine most people (even those who generally disagree with me) will still get what I'm getting at.

Personally, I don't know how many whites are surprised to see an eloquent black person. But I think there are quite a few people who are surprised to see a POLITICIAN who is able to articulate something that real that makes sense and isn't a sound bite.

To me, politicians with nice, flowery, magnificent sounding speeches are a dime a dozen. They all want to be the next quoted Washington and have speech writers to do it for them. It's very rare that a politician can just answer the stinking question clearly without all the spin. Obama says what he wants to say and to me that sounds articulate. Other politicians (like Clinton) say what he thinks we want to hear and that sounds quite eloquent.

Technically, I'd say by definition of the words (and not all the loaded meanings we may give them) that Obama is both articulate and eloquent and I could see how eloquent is the higher compliment. But in an actual interview with someone I could see myself describing him using either word and I'm not so sure that eloquent would be the higher compliment in my mind.

Is it possible that Bush was trying to make a backhanded compliment? Sure. I didn't get that, but I know politicians love to do that to each other whenever possible. I've seen plenty of democrats give Bush those kind of compliments before. I just don't see it as a race issue. Did the clip have Cavuto talking about Obama as some kind of spokesman for black people or something?

Even if Bush said, "I've got to hand it to Obama. He sure can pronounce his words better than I can." I'd have a hard time seeing how that was somehow a racist comment. Biden framed his compliments as something exceptional for African-Americans. If Bush said something like, "For a black man, he sure is articulate," I'd be enraged. He said nothing of the sort. If Bush was clever enough to use articulate as a backhanded compliment I could easily see him giving the same backhanded compliment to Clinton.

What if Bush had said, "Well, Obama is very book-smart but I don't know how well that translates toward leading a country," that would be a very obvious backhanded compliment. Would you consider that a trash on blacks? There definitely are people out there who think that blacks may be street smart but aren't very "book-smart". So does that mean that any person who uses book-smart as part of a backhanded compliment to a black individual also believes that blacks as a whole generally AREN'T booksmart? I don't think so.

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