Ornery.org
  Front Page   |   About Ornery.org   |   World Watch   |   Guest Essays   |   Contact Us

The Ornery American Forum Post New Topic  Post A Reply
my profile login | register | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» The Ornery American Forum » General Comments » Persecution of Atheists (Page 5)

 - UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!   This topic comprises 10 pages: 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10   
Author Topic: Persecution of Atheists
kenmeer livermaile
Member
Member # 2243

 - posted      Profile for kenmeer livermaile   Email kenmeer livermaile       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"There's a difference between being saying "I believe that God does not exist" and saying "I don't believe that God does exist."

All of which only matters if we believe we can believe god into or out of existence, which makes deity a decidedly anthropocentric critter.

Posts: 23297 | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
KnightEnder
unregistered


 - posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Sorry, I was tired, it was late. Thanks.

KE

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
hobsen
Member
Member # 2923

 - posted      Profile for hobsen   Email hobsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Believing humanity is at the top of the intellectual food chain seems to me unsupported. This is a big universe, and there may be creatures in it intellectually superior to humans. That does not mean these would have to be gods or God. But saying there is no proof at present of the existence of beings intellectually superior to humans is possible, even if it annoys the UFO crowd. Probably I should say that myself.
Posts: 4387 | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pete at Home
Member
Member # 429

 - posted      Profile for Pete at Home   Email Pete at Home   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Has anyone given a dolfin an IQ test?
Posts: 44193 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
MattP
Member
Member # 2763

 - posted      Profile for MattP   Email MattP   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
The way we usually use the terms, is it more important for "theism" that "God" be an entity especially concerned with human beings/values/experience, or an entity with the ability to defy natural laws?
I agree that the way we usually use the terms, that theism and atheism refers to God with a big 'G' rather than just supernaturality, but I think that's just because of the actors involved. Most supernaturalists in the western world are theists with an anthropomorphic (anthropogenic?) concept of God (big 'G' again). Most atheists' exposure to supernaturalism and theism is with this type of person, therefore it is often the case that Jehovah is the God that atheists don't believe in, though I don't think there are many self-identified atheists that consider their rejection if that god to be a complete explanation of their position.
Posts: 3481 | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
MattP
Member
Member # 2763

 - posted      Profile for MattP   Email MattP   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
Has anyone given a dolfin an IQ test?

No, but...
quote:
Dolphins may have big brains, but a South African-based scientist says laboratory rats and even goldfish can outwit them.
Dolphins are not as clever as previously thought

Paul Manger of Johannesburg's University of the Witwatersrand says the super-sized brains of dolphins are a function of being warm-blooded in a cold water environment and not a sign of intelligence.

"We equate our big brain with intelligence. Over the years we have looked at these kinds of things and said the dolphins must be intelligent," he said.

"The real flaw in this logic is that it suggests all brains are built the same... When you look at the structure of the dolphin brain, you see it is not built for complex information processing," he said.

quote:
Brains, he says, are made of neurons and glia. The latter create the environment for the neurons to work properly and producing heat is one of glia's functions.

"Dolphins have a superabundance of glia and very few neurons... The dolphin's brain is not made for information processing it is designed to counter the thermal challenges of being a mammal in water," Manger said.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/archive/archive?ArchiveId=35229

Yeah, Al Jazeera. Weird, but I didn't feel like looking for another source.

[ February 26, 2007, 05:03 PM: Message edited by: MattP ]

Posts: 3481 | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
seekingprometheus
Member
Member # 3043

 - posted      Profile for seekingprometheus   Email seekingprometheus   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
I always thought that theism was about having creator(s).

I would say, Simply, that atheism is believing that humanity is at the top of the intellectual food chain.

I'd agree that the theme of creator/creationism is highly relevant to uses of atheism/theism, but I don't think that atheism is specifically about the human position in the intellectual hierarchy.

This seems to be a decidedly side-issue in my understanding of "atheism" as it is commonly used. Hobsen brings up an excellent point in extraterrestrials. I think that it would be a very uncommon usage (to say the least) to call someone who does not believe in a deity but does believe in intelligent alien life forms a "theist."

Posts: 3654 | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pete at Home
Member
Member # 429

 - posted      Profile for Pete at Home   Email Pete at Home   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I wasn't referring to brain size, but to their manifest behavior, their complex language, etc. And I thought that intelligence had more to do with the number of connections between neurons than the #neurons itself.

quote:
Originally posted by MattP:
quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
Has anyone given a dolfin an IQ test?

No, but...
quote:
Dolphins may have big brains, but a South African-based scientist says laboratory rats and even goldfish can outwit them.
Dolphins are not as clever as previously thought

Paul Manger of Johannesburg's University of the Witwatersrand says the super-sized brains of dolphins are a function of being warm-blooded in a cold water environment and not a sign of intelligence.

"We equate our big brain with intelligence. Over the years we have looked at these kinds of things and said the dolphins must be intelligent," he said.

"The real flaw in this logic is that it suggests all brains are built the same... When you look at the structure of the dolphin brain, you see it is not built for complex information processing," he said.

quote:
Brains, he says, are made of neurons and glia. The latter create the environment for the neurons to work properly and producing heat is one of glia's functions.

"Dolphins have a superabundance of glia and very few neurons... The dolphin's brain is not made for information processing it is designed to counter the thermal challenges of being a mammal in water," Manger said.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/archive/archive?ArchiveId=35229

Yeah, Al Jazeera. Weird, but I didn't feel like looking for another source.


Posts: 44193 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
hobsen
Member
Member # 2923

 - posted      Profile for hobsen   Email hobsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Pete is probably right. Even Loren Eiseley once fell into the trap of saying an alien being with a one hundred cubic centimeter brain would be less intelligent than an ape. That is true if the alien being had a brain similar otherwise to a human brain; but if it was organized differently, who knows? The same holds true here; dolphins may devote less of their brains to thinking, but that is no proof they are inferior.

Just the same, this is a wonderful article. To my knowledge, nobody has pointed out that dolphin brains are large primarily to keep warm before. Regardless of dolphin intelligence, that observation sounds very, very plausible.

[ February 26, 2007, 06:29 PM: Message edited by: hobsen ]

Posts: 4387 | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
The Drake
Member
Member # 2128

 - posted      Profile for The Drake   Email The Drake   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by seekingprometheus:

This seems to be a decidedly side-issue in my understanding of "atheism" as it is commonly used. Hobsen brings up an excellent point in extraterrestrials. I think that it would be a very uncommon usage (to say the least) to call someone who does not believe in a deity but does believe in intelligent alien life forms a "theist."

And yet, the people who considered aliens to be our creators have a decidedly religious, or theist, flavor. The Heaven's Gate Cult, and several much less extreme groups, are examples of this.

The Raelians are another prime example.

I would call both those groups theists based on their rituals, experiences, and other factors.

Could you rightly call these guys atheists?

Cuz we don't want them in our club.

Posts: 7707 | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
The Drake
Member
Member # 2128

 - posted      Profile for The Drake   Email The Drake   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
And I boycotted Tuna for nothing.

Please pass the dolphin.

Posts: 7707 | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
seekingprometheus
Member
Member # 3043

 - posted      Profile for seekingprometheus   Email seekingprometheus   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
And I boycotted Tuna for nothing.

Please pass the dolphin.

[LOL]

[ February 27, 2007, 12:13 AM: Message edited by: seekingprometheus ]

Posts: 3654 | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
seekingprometheus
Member
Member # 3043

 - posted      Profile for seekingprometheus   Email seekingprometheus   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
And yet, the people who considered aliens to be our creators have a decidedly religious, or theist, flavor. The Heaven's Gate Cult, and several much less extreme groups, are examples of this.
I'd agree that people who posit aliens as the "creators" of humans are certainly seeing aliens through a theistic lens.

But I think that there are many individuals who believe in intelligent aliens who are not theistic. Essentially, I'm just trying to get at the question of what we mean by the term in common usage. I don't think that the term is usually used in a sense that necessarily posits humans as the most intelligent beings in the universe.

(Not to say that my definition covers all uses--but I do think that the common usage of atheism/theism generally refers to belief in an anthropocentric deity.)

Posts: 3654 | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
hobsen
Member
Member # 2923

 - posted      Profile for hobsen   Email hobsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Your argument makes sense to me, seekingprometheus. We are talking about the usage of an English word from the perspective of the Ornery forum, which is dominated by North Americans. Were the Greeks and Romans atheists or theists? Well, they were certainly not atheists, for they believed in many gods. But they may not have believed in a God, as that word is used on Ornery today. Similarly experts have disagreed on whether Buddhists and Hindus believe in God, and in doing so I think they are implying a meaning of the word theism reflecting a strongly Western bias. The fact all traditions have had inviduals who conceived of a single ultimate power in the universe is something which few English speakers either know or care about; they think of theism in terms of the deity most familiar to them.
Posts: 4387 | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
KnightEnder
unregistered


 - posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Pete, scientists think that Whales will be the first beings contacted if aliens ever show up because they have the most complexed communication. Dolphins second. But we all know that white mice run the Earth. [Smile]

To me all being an atheist means is I don't "believe" a supreme being exists. I don't "believe" one doesn't exist either. I don't know. However I see no evidence that one does so I operate on that basis. To some people that makes me an agnostic, to some an atheist , and here in Texas it makes me a Devil-worshipper.

KE

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Carlotta
Member
Member # 3117

 - posted      Profile for Carlotta   Email Carlotta   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Great reference, KE, I love that book!
At least know that here is one Texan who doesn't believe you're a devil-worshipper!(And a Catholic too!)

Posts: 1318 | Registered: Oct 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Omega M.
Member
Member # 1392

 - posted      Profile for Omega M.     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Regarding Richard Dawkins's "religion is child abuse" idea, I agree that it's too much to call raising a child in a certain religion child abuse. (All bad parenting is not child abuse.) Still, it would make sense for parents to tell their kids at a certain age that there are other religions out there, and that they believe in a certain religion for these reasons but that the kids are free to believe what they want to. Probably it could happen a little after the kids are told that there is no Santa Claus.

It may be that a kid who isn't brought up with any religion or religion-like commitments will never be able to commit him- or herself to something, because he or she hasn't acquired the necessary habits.

Posts: 1966 | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pete at Home
Member
Member # 429

 - posted      Profile for Pete at Home   Email Pete at Home   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
<i>And yet, the people who considered aliens to be our creators have a decidedly religious, or theist, flavor. The Heaven's Gate Cult</i>

I'm sorry, but beam me up scotty is not my idea of a decidedly religious flavor.

Posts: 44193 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
The Drake
Member
Member # 2128

 - posted      Profile for The Drake   Email The Drake   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
To end 'my side thread' it isn't intelligence that I really meant, but more of a hierarchy of importance. That someone or some thing is above us morally or spiritually. theist clearly is used more narrowly than that, but I think it is a working definition of "not atheist"
Posts: 7707 | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Jesse
Member
Member # 1860

 - posted      Profile for Jesse   Email Jesse   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
The italicized portion certainly does rebutt what I said about atheism, and I'd not have said it if I'd heard that before. Although it does beg the question of, if the message is clear, then explain the French Revolution, or the fact that the rationalists that gave us the US revolution kept slavery in place ...
We're all still growing up Pete, religious or not. We make mistakes. In all fairness, however, it wasn't rationalists that turned the French Revolution into the horror that it was.

----

I'm in a hurry, but in regard to the clockwork universe, this is simplified shorthand for the idea that the Divine doesn't make and unmake the Laws of Nature. It's not "predermination". It's important, to me, to make that clear.

Posts: 11410 | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
MattP
Member
Member # 2763

 - posted      Profile for MattP   Email MattP   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
I'm sorry, but beam me up scotty is not my idea of a decidedly religious flavor.
No, but people that commit mass suicide because they believe some non-corporeal form of themselves is going to be taken away on space ships is closer to a religious flavor than an atheistic one. They've just substituted little green men for gods. Heck, even the Scientologists base their beliefs on aliens.
Posts: 3481 | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
kenmeer livermaile
Member
Member # 2243

 - posted      Profile for kenmeer livermaile   Email kenmeer livermaile       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Perhaps if they'd named it Kolob's Gate?
Posts: 23297 | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pete at Home
Member
Member # 429

 - posted      Profile for Pete at Home   Email Pete at Home   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by MattP:
quote:
I'm sorry, but beam me up scotty is not my idea of a decidedly religious flavor.
No, but people that commit mass suicide because they believe some non-corporeal form of themselves is going to be taken away on space ships is closer to a religious flavor than an atheistic one. They've just substituted little green men for gods. Heck, even the Scientologists base their beliefs on aliens.
Well, you're entitled your own wrong opinion, [Razz] but that's clearly an atheistic flavor. And the Scientologists are atheists too. Don't assume that atheism has no overlap with religion. There are Buddhist atheists, even a handful of Muslim atheists.

[ February 27, 2007, 01:14 PM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

Posts: 44193 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pete at Home
Member
Member # 429

 - posted      Profile for Pete at Home   Email Pete at Home   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by kenmeer livermaile:
Perhaps if they'd named it Kolob's Gate?

Oh please. As if Atheists are never derivative.
Posts: 44193 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pete at Home
Member
Member # 429

 - posted      Profile for Pete at Home   Email Pete at Home   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Atheism excludes theism. It does not exclude religion. Most atheists are not religious, and most religious persons are not atheists, but there is some overlap.
Posts: 44193 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
MattP
Member
Member # 2763

 - posted      Profile for MattP   Email MattP   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
From the Heaven's Gate training materials:
quote:
Two thousand years ago, a crew of members of the Kingdom of Heaven who are responsible for nurturing "gardens," determined that a percentage of the human "plants" of the present civilization of this Garden (Earth) had developed enough that some of those bodies might be ready to be used as "containers" for soul deposits. Upon instruction, a member of the Kingdom of Heaven then left behind His body in that Next Level (similar to putting it in a closet, like a suit of clothes that doesn't need to be worn for awhile), came to Earth, and moved into (or incarnated into), an adult human body (or "vehicle") that had been "prepped" for this particular task. The body that was chosen was called Jesus. The member of the Kingdom of Heaven who was instructed to incarnate into that body did so at His "Father's" (or Older Member's) instruction. He "moved into" (or took over) that body when it was 29 or 30 years old, at the time referred to as its baptism by John the Baptist (the incarnating event was depicted as "...the Holy Spirit descended upon Him in bodily form like a dove" - Luke 3:22). [That body (named Jesus) was tagged in its formative period to be the receptacle of a Next Level Representative, and even just that "tagging" gave that "vehicle" some unique awareness of its coming purpose.]

The sole task that was given to this member from the Kingdom of Heaven was to offer the way leading to membership into the Kingdom of Heaven to those who recognized Him for who He was and chose to follow Him. "The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand" meant - 'since I am here, and I am from that Kingdom, if you leave everything of this world and follow me, I can take you into my Father's Kingdom.' Only those individuals who had received a "deposit" containing a soul's beginning had the capacity to believe or recognize the Kingdom of Heaven's Representative. They could get to His Father only through total reliance upon Him. He later sent His students out with the "Good news of the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand," and His followers could then help gather the "flock" so that the "Shepherd" might teach others what was required of them to enter His Father's House - His Father's Kingdom - the Kingdom of Heaven - in the literal and physical Heavens - certainly not among humans on Earth. Leaving behind this world included: family, sensuality, selfish desires, your human mind, and even your human body if it be required of you - all mammalian ways, thinking, and behavior. Since He had been through this metamorphic transition Himself from human to Level Above Human - under the guidance of His Father - He was qualified to take others through that same discipline and transition. Remember, the One who incarnated in Jesus was sent for one purpose only, to say, 'If you want to go to Heaven, I can take you through that gate - it requires everything of you.'

http://www.press1.com/current/hgate/mirror/book/03.htm

I had no idea that they had inserted themselves into Christian theology like this. Really interesting/weird stuff. When I said they had substituted little green men for God, I was speaking metaphorically, but lo-and-behold that was the actual basis of their entire theology. Jesus really was an alien according to these people.

[ February 27, 2007, 01:58 PM: Message edited by: MattP ]

Posts: 3481 | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TomDavidson
Member
Member # 99

 - posted      Profile for TomDavidson   Email TomDavidson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:

Well, you're entitled your own wrong opinion, but that's clearly an atheistic flavor. And the Scientologists are atheists too.

This is actually why Dawkins prefers the term "rationalist," to differentiate people who believe in the supernatural but no god from people who have no belief in the supernatural.
Posts: 22935 | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pete at Home
Member
Member # 429

 - posted      Profile for Pete at Home   Email Pete at Home   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:

Well, you're entitled your own wrong opinion, but that's clearly an atheistic flavor. And the Scientologists are atheists too.

This is actually why Dawkins prefers the term "rationalist," to differentiate people who believe in the supernatural but no god from people who have no belief in the supernatural.
Of course he would. But does he define what "supernatural" means? And does he explain when "rationalist" came to mean someone that denies the "supernatural"? [LOL]
Posts: 44193 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pete at Home
Member
Member # 429

 - posted      Profile for Pete at Home   Email Pete at Home   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by MattP:
Really interesting/weird stuff. When I said they had substituted little green men for God, I was speaking metaphorically, but lo-and-behold that was the actual basis of their entire theology. Jesus really was an alien according to these people.

So? If they could prove it, scientifically, to your satisfaction, would you still deny that they were atheists? Or would you want a ride on their space ship? [Wink]
Posts: 44193 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pete at Home
Member
Member # 429

 - posted      Profile for Pete at Home   Email Pete at Home   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
My point is that these labels that we're all tossing around, i.e. religious v. non-religious, atheistic, and so on, are fairly arbitrary and politically driven. This is all about star-belly sneeches, and Dawkins' use of pseudorational terms to let folks that want to feel better than others say "we are rational, you are not;" etc.
Posts: 44193 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TomDavidson
Member
Member # 99

 - posted      Profile for TomDavidson   Email TomDavidson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'm pretty sure he does define "rational" in one of his books somewhere.
Posts: 22935 | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
MattP
Member
Member # 2763

 - posted      Profile for MattP   Email MattP   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
So?
So, I thought it was interesting.
Posts: 3481 | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
MattP
Member
Member # 2763

 - posted      Profile for MattP   Email MattP   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
My point is that these labels that we're all tossing around, i.e. religious v. non-religious, atheistic, and so on, are fairly arbitrary and politically driven.
It does suck when the only words available to describe something succinctly are not entirely descriptive, but we work with what we got.
Posts: 3481 | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
The Drake
Member
Member # 2128

 - posted      Profile for The Drake   Email The Drake   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
This is actually why Dawkins prefers the term "rationalist," to differentiate people who believe in the supernatural but no god from people who have no belief in the supernatural.

Rene Descartes would challenge that definition, no doubt. [Smile]
Posts: 7707 | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
kenmeer livermaile
Member
Member # 2243

 - posted      Profile for kenmeer livermaile   Email kenmeer livermaile       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"Oh please. As if Atheists are never derivative."

I have no idea how that segues, but go for it.

Posts: 23297 | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
kenmeer livermaile
Member
Member # 2243

 - posted      Profile for kenmeer livermaile   Email kenmeer livermaile       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"And does he explain when "rationalist" came to mean someone that denies the "supernatural"?"

Can't say for sure, but I;d venture that the exp[lanation involved the ability to measure the natural and the consistently proven inability to measure the supernatural.

"Captain, their prayers measure warp 5 on the wish-fulfllment scale."

'Damn! At that rate, they'll doubt us out of existence in less than an hour! Scotty! More power!'

Posts: 23297 | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pete at Home
Member
Member # 429

 - posted      Profile for Pete at Home   Email Pete at Home   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by kenmeer livermaile:
"Oh please. As if Atheists are never derivative."

I have no idea how that segues, but go for it.

Atheist groups borrow terms and concepts from religion without giving credit, as much as different religions borrow from each other without giving credit.

(Borrowing is good, mind you; I just think we should give credit where credit is due).

If supernatural means something that exceeds the bounds of known science, then the Big Bang posits a supernatural event.

Posts: 44193 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
hobsen
Member
Member # 2923

 - posted      Profile for hobsen   Email hobsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Thanks for the quoted beliefs of the Heaven's Gate cult, MattP. They clearly arose as an offshoot of Christianity. And they believed in a life after death.

The extract says nothing about whether members were theists. It says neither Jesus nor the Father to whom he referred were God, and paints them as more like pagan gods perhaps, but it says nothing about the origin of the universe or any possible supreme power above them.

Posts: 4387 | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TomDavidson
Member
Member # 99

 - posted      Profile for TomDavidson   Email TomDavidson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
If supernatural means something that exceeds the bounds of known science, then the Big Bang posits a supernatural event.
It doesn't. I believe things which are considered "non-rational" are defined in general as non-reproducible, non-derivable, non-predictive, and/or non-observable.
Posts: 22935 | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
kenmeer livermaile
Member
Member # 2243

 - posted      Profile for kenmeer livermaile   Email kenmeer livermaile       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"Atheist groups borrow terms and concepts from religion without giving credit, as much as different religions borrow from each other without giving credit."

I know. How does that fit into:

"a) I'm sorry, but beam me up scotty is not my idea of a decidedly religious flavor.

b) Perhaps if they'd named it Kolob's Gate?"

As if Heaven's Gate weren't already derivative, and is if derivativity were the issue here rather than interpretation: atheists and theists interpret the riddle of reality with very different models.

Posts: 23297 | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
  This topic comprises 10 pages: 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10   

Quick Reply
Message:

HTML is not enabled.
UBB Code™ is enabled.
UBB Code™ Images not permitted.
Instant Graemlins
   


Post New Topic  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | Ornery.org Front Page

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.7.1