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Author Topic: A conundrum for all skeptics, including TomDavidson
johnson
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Acupuncture points and meridians, used for thousands of years in China, India, and Tibet, have recently been shown to exactly describe zones of higher skin conductance and electromagnetic energy. I can show this easily with a skin galvanometer.
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MattP
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Wow. Special mention just for Tom.

Now, Johnson, why should this be a problem for skeptics? All we ask for is evidence for claims. Evidence has been found? Excellent! Got a link?

[ March 07, 2007, 12:08 AM: Message edited by: MattP ]

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TomDavidson
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Great! Cite the peer-reviewed journal and we're all set, johnson.
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seekingprometheus
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Huh?

How is this a conundrum?

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TommySama
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I, too, fail to see how this relates to anything. Does TomD have an issue with accupuncture??
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johnson
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www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1266803&dopt=Abstract

www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1142259

Google "acupuncture meridians skin conductance" if you want more.

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johnson
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I am tired of losing arguments with Tom. There's more to living than RPGs, fantasy/sci-fi novels, movies, and tv shows, video games, and comic books. Those things are escapes from reality. You don't have to escape reality. The real world is weirder than we were taught in high school or college.

What are all you people doing up at this hour? I work second shift. How about you folks?

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MattP
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Cool. And the conundrum part?
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MattP
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quote:
What are all you people doing up at this hour? I work second shift. How about you folks?
I'm a programmer. I took some work home tonight and I check Ornery during builds and installs.

[ March 07, 2007, 12:31 AM: Message edited by: MattP ]

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johnson
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I sit here and check Ornery while I check my other BBs and email. How about the rest of ye?
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johnson
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The conundrum part:

How did people in India China, and Tibet know about these points and meridians 4600 years ago?

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MattP
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quote:
How did people in India China, and Tibet know about these points and meridians 4600 years ago?
Trial and error, I would imagine.

If acupuncture has a detectable effect and acupuncture at different locations of the body have different detectable effects, then it makes sense that 1) Sufficient experimentation would yield the specific locations on the body which have the most effect and, 2) Those locations likely identify an area that is biologically different than other areas - perhaps they have higher concentrations of certain types of cells or different blood-flow characteristics.

I'd expect unique physiology to have unique physically measurable attributes.

[ March 07, 2007, 12:44 AM: Message edited by: MattP ]

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TomDavidson
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quote:
I am tired of losing arguments with Tom. There's more to living than RPGs, fantasy/sci-fi novels, movies, and tv shows, video games, and comic books.
I'm not sure what the latter sentence has to do with anything, since all the arguments you've lost with me have been on other topics. [Wink]

quote:
I'm a programmer. I took some work home tonight and I check Ornery during builds and installs.
Same here. Although I also check Ornery when I get sick of code. [Smile]

-------------

Okay. You've linked two studies -- one from 1976 that measured ten points of contact, and one from 2005 with two (although only one showed obvious difference) -- that indicate that the placement of structures within the skin affect conductivity.

I'm assuming you don't intend for your observation to stop there, do you? Because, y'know, that in and of itself is not particularly interesting. What you'll need to show next is the effect of electrical conductivity on various tissues. And even then you've got a problem, since the traditional mechanism of "chi" doesn't accurately model the electrical phenomena.

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TomDavidson
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BTW, if you Google your search term, you wind up with this result -- which discusses exactly what happens when you over-enthusastically let your conclusions outpace your actual research:
http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/electro.html

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johnson
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Maybe you could find them all by trial and error. Except there's one problem with that--needling a meridian does little to nothing. I find it slightly improbable that some guy with needles and nothing else could find all the meridians.

There are plenty of studies, Tom. Is it strictly completely needed for me to link them all?

ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/freeabs_all.jsp?tp=&arnumber=499759

That link is to an abstract from a study that found "preferential wave direction" in meridians. In other words, the energy flows naturally in a certain direction in a meridian. The Chinese knew this. So did folks in India. How?

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TommySama
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Inadvertantly? Torture, massaging, generally messing around with their bodies. Isn't that the area budhism came out of too?
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johnson
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That doesn't answer how you find your meridians. That doesn't answer how you find the direction of the flow of energy in the meridian. What would you detect it with?
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TomDavidson
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quote:
I find it slightly improbable that some guy with needles and nothing else could find all the meridians.
Why? We had thousands of years and lots of people to kill. *shrug* If, as you assert, there is a perceptible physiological effect produced by sticking needles in one place rather than sticking them in another place, there's no reason to believe that a society that liked to stick needles in themselves would have failed to notice it.

Heck, are you suggesting that we boiled bark and acorns for years as a painkiller because God or aliens told us how? People did it, and it worked for enough people that they recommended it to their friends. The only reason we don't still boil bark is that we figured out what made the bark work and mass-produced aspirin instead.

I'm also rather skeptical of the last study linked; the abstract as written is terrible.

[ March 07, 2007, 01:10 AM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]

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MattP
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That last study also appears to be published as in a technical magazine, not an academic journal. I don't see any indication that peer review is required for publication.
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johnson
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How would you find the meridian, Tom? You can find the point by trial and error. The meridian, not so much. If you are struck at Ren Ying, at the carotid sinus, the 9th point on the Stomach meridian, you will most likely pass out. If you massage this point lightly, your blood pressure will drop suddenly. A strike at the 11th point on the stomach meridian is also dangerous. You could find both of those by experimentation, but how would you find the meridian that connects them both? Striking the meridian does no more than striking a point off the meridian. If you're dumb, you can find all this out for yourself by poking around on your neck. But don't.
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MattP
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Why were the meridians plotted in the first place? What is the significance of a meridian in acupuncture medicine?
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johnson
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My whole point with this thread was to get to the bottom of the question--how did this knowledge of meridians show up?

I would like to hear some theories.

I have only two that seem credible to me.

1. Advanced civilizations have visited our planet and left some of this knowledge.

2. Advanced civilizations have developed here spontaneously in the past, particularly in India, and this knowledge is what's left. Anybody ever heard of Atlantis?


laugh it up.

[ March 07, 2007, 01:28 AM: Message edited by: johnson ]

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TomDavidson
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quote:
My whole point with this thread was to get to the bottom of the question--how did this knowledge of meridians show up?
Yeah, because it wouldn't've been possible for you to just put some credible science out there and stop. It's never as satisfying without the crazy-ass speculation.
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MattP
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quote:
I have only two that seem credible to me.
Then you suffer from a serious lack of imagination. Just off the top of my head, I've also got:

1. Time travelers from the future told our ancestors about how to do it.

2. The meridians used to glow.

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johnson
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" It's never as satisfying without the crazy-ass speculation."

[LOL] Mos' definitely.

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TommySama
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I'm pretty sure this was the work of Jack Bauer.

"By the time I'm finished with you, you're going to wish you felt this good again."

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Adam Lassek
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There's two things being talked about here that need to be addressed.

If there's scientific evidence that acupuncture works, cool.

But "meridians," upon which acupuncture is based most certainly do not exist. Wikipedia's definition of a meridian is:
quote:
the body's vital energy, "qi", circulates through the body along specific interconnected channels called meridians. There is no physically verifiable anatomical or histological basis for their existence.
Qi is the same hippie, new age bull**** concept of energy as a swirling flowing cloud that can't be measured. Energy that can't be measured is an oxymoron; energy is a measurement of something's ability to do work. If acupuncture really does work, it's happening for a different reason.

But let's not jump to conclusions. Wait for the peer review process to vet this test first, and independently verify the results.

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Tezcatlipoca
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Jack Bauer:

"Tell me where the pressure points are!"

[ March 07, 2007, 02:39 AM: Message edited by: Tezcatlipoca ]

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TommySama
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"I don't know!"

"THE HELL YOU DON'T! I'm going to cut off one of each of your fingers until you tell me where they are!"

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johnson
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OK, Adam. The meridians from Chinese and Ayurvedic medicine are in fact verified by skin conductance studies. This has been known for years. I'm not interested in arguing the point. You can do your years of research just like I did mine.

Google is a good place to start. You can also buy a cheap skin galvanometer and test it all for yourself, like I did. You can also go poking around on your pressure points, like I did, which can hurt you.


As far as chi (qi, ki, prana) goes....let's just say there's more to the universe than meets the eye....some might say there are lions and tigers and bears out there. I have met people I consider legitimate energy healers/workers, and I don't think any of them would say that the energy they work with is purely/only electromagnetic in nature. I would say that there are also a lot of charlatans in this area, and who knows what they say? If you study energy work/healing long enough, you'll realize it's just like any other field. In any area of human endeavor, you will find all types, competent and not-so-competent.

I make no specific claims about energy of a non-electromagnetic nature.


TommySama, I don't watch 24.

[ March 07, 2007, 10:11 AM: Message edited by: johnson ]

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johnson
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As far as Aliens go, well....

www.mystae.com/streams/ufos/emperor.html

This researcher notes that the Chinese believe that Huang Ti, their 3rd ruler, actually flew here from the Sirius star system in a spaceship, and returned there after ruling here for several decades. The 5,000-year-old Hindu epic "The Mahabharata" discusses flying machines and missiles. Hindu scholars are divided as to whether the Mahabharata actually discusses real historical events, but if it does, it is talking about two warring societies that have at least our modern level of technology, if not more.

Native american societies have believed for centuries that a city exists under Mt Shasta in California. You can find 5 or 6 books on Amazon about this city, it's called Telos. I don't know if it's there, I'm merely pointing those books out. I haven't personally read them.


However, the Hindus and Tibetans believe that a vast city complex exists underneath the Himalaya mountain range.

www.subversiveelement.com/UnderMojave11.html


All the sources I can Google about the possible underground city complexes around the world sound like they were written by crazies. However...I don't find it credible that the thousands of UFO reports, including the page I linked in my other thread about the Canadian guy, are all completely false. I'm not saying that I think that humans have had high-level tech here for hundreds of thousands of years. All archeological evidence points to very recent human habitation of the Americas, which implies that widespread high-tech society is probably fairly recent here on Earth, as in, only since the last great glaciation state, 12,000 years ago or so. You can read all the evidence, and judge for yourselves. Don't expect to do 5 minutes worth of Googling and find all the answers, though. I don't think any of you would assume that 5 minutes of Googling would reveal all the answers about any of your favorites subject areas, whether that be RPGs, for TomD, or homophilics, for Mr. Richard Dey, or whatever your private obsessions/pleasures.

There is one other possible explanation for the discovery of the meridians--I studied with a guy who literally taught people to see the meridians. I think it's possible that someone, somewhere, was born with the ability to see them, much as some people see auras.

[ March 07, 2007, 10:10 AM: Message edited by: johnson ]

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KnightEnder
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There is nothing new under the Sun.

And Johnson, I think it is wrong for you to see more than one BB. [Frown]

Tom, are you a skeptic?

KE

[ March 07, 2007, 12:10 PM: Message edited by: KnightEnder ]

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TomDavidson
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quote:
I don't find it credible that the thousands of UFO reports, including the page I linked in my other thread about the Canadian guy, are all completely false.
Why not?

quote:
Tom, are you a skeptic?
In general? Yeah.
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Adam Lassek
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quote:
As far as chi (qi, ki, prana) goes....let's just say there's more to the universe than meets the eye....some might say there are lions and tigers and bears out there. I have met people I consider legitimate energy healers/workers, and I don't think any of them would say that the energy they work with is purely/only electromagnetic in nature.
I never said electromagnetic energy is the only kind! There are many forms of energy: electric, kinetic, chemical, thermal, but they all are expressions of something's ability to do work. If the "energy" is of another nature, what is it? What does it do? How is it measured? Unless those basic questions can be answered, I will remain very skeptical of any claims regarding them.

Your personal experience just doesn't cut it. Anecdotal evidence is worse than useless, because humans have a very powerful ability to convince themselves of what they want to be true. We need empirical evidence before we can trust any assertion.

The fact that skin conductance may change when you poke needles into it doesn't, in my mind, have any connection whatsoever to mystical flowing points of "energy" in one's body. And if it does, show me evidence.

[ March 07, 2007, 03:35 PM: Message edited by: Adam Lassek ]

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Adam Lassek
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It's possible that methodology problems may be involved here as well.

quote:
From an electro-physiological point of view human skin shows an inhomogeneous pattern regarding its electrical resistance: in certain areas a decreased electrical resistance can be observed. It has been postulated that these areas correspond to acupuncture points. Subsequently, devices have been developed as detectors for acupuncture points which are used for diagnosis and treatment in acupuncture. However, most of these devices are inconsistent: they show a remarkable inaccuracy in their measurements and are poorly evaluated. Further analyses have shown that the measuring pens often used are subject to various disturbances such as pressure, angle of measurement, humidity of the skin, different thickness of stratum corneum of the skin and external disturbances such as temperature and humidity in the measuring room.
Source
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johnson
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Adam, you can get better devices than a $30 measuring pen to do the research. There are very expensive and accurate skin galvanometers out there.

I am not at all required to show you evidence. I owe you nothing. There are plenty of Hindu yogis who can control the electromagnetic emanations, including brain waves, of their bodies. there is research, I know people who can do it, but I am not proposing anything. I owe you nothing. Period. I don't care a huge amount if you believe, or not, or....

to Tom--well, regarding UFOs, I figure, "where there's smoke, there's fire." I have read that cultures all over the world talk about UFOs, including many if not most primitive groups. I have a friend who traveled to HuaShan, a popular taoist mountain in China, and lived with the taoist folk on the mountain for several days. He says that UFOs are often seen over the mountain, and that those people, as well as many other taoist/buddhist types in china, consider them to be beings flying around in spacecraft. You don't have to believe it. I would suggest you read a couple of books on the subject before you make up your mind. Just because you weren't taught it in high school or college doesn't make it wrong, right?

[ March 07, 2007, 11:46 PM: Message edited by: johnson ]

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TomDavidson
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The number of logical fallacies committed in your most recent post, johnson, especially when considered per sentence, is kind of staggering.
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MattP
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quote:
I am not at all required to show you evidence.
Well that conundrum sure dried up fast.
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johnson
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What's your point, Tom? that there aren't most likely hundreds of millions of earth-like planets in our galaxy alone? That you don't think that intelligent, space-traveling life could have arisen elsewhere in the galaxy? Do you realize that this is not a particularly old solar system? Do you realize that there are plenty of older ones nearby? Do you realize how quickly we've come from Kitty Hawk to the Mars missions? There are most likely habitable planets several tens of millions of years older than earth within a few hundred light years.

The latest research on gravity perturbances of nearby stars shows that at least our closest neighboring stars have several rocky planets orbiting at similar distances as the inner planets of this solar system. If you need me to dig this study up, I can....but assuming that we don't have to do that, I don't think it's foolish to assume that if life arose here, it can arise elsewhere. It's convergent evolution. Tropical species that are unrelated to one another but look and act very similar exist all over the world. I kind of think it's sensible to assume that convergent evolution applies not only to the tropics, but to planets that can support life. Right?

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johnson
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To Adam/Matt--Chinese Five Elements theory is full of holes and contradictions, and Hindu medical theory isn't exactly perfect. Every energy work system has its imbalances, and I tend to keep my practices very basic, because there's no point in spending your life fooling with that stuff, in my opinion. It's nice in moderation.

[ March 08, 2007, 12:26 AM: Message edited by: johnson ]

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