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» The Ornery American Forum » General Comments » Should Britain and the US apologise for their part in the Slave Trade? (Page 2)

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Author Topic: Should Britain and the US apologise for their part in the Slave Trade?
KnightEnder
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Welcome to Ornery, Gonad. You are wrong. Oh, I mean dagon, sorry. [Smile]

KE

[ March 09, 2007, 11:33 AM: Message edited by: KnightEnder ]

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tonylovern
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i dont think this is about apologizing for individuals, its about the governments apologizing. my geat grandfather may be dead, but the government he paid taxes to isn't.

our current politicians didnt profit from slavery directly, but our current government did. that said, the government has done several things specifically to redress slavery, they werent always the best ideas, but i think going to war with ourselves was a pretty good start.

so no, i dont think the governments should apologize. i do think they should be more selective of thier trade partners when it comes to countries that still harbor slavery.

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dagon
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What am I wrong about, Kn---I'm sorry, I don't have a childish play on your name to post. I know, I'll say 'gonad' again, since you seem to like that one. Ready? Gonad. Ha Ha. What a wit!
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Lobo
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How about "REND THE KING". Don't worry dagon. KE greets everyone that way. He is mostly harmless; unless you are a prison guard who preys on child criminals...
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caladbolg1125
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"He is mostly harmless..."

Like the rest of the planet, neh?

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Jesse
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If you bougt stock in BMW in 1960, and in 1980 (or whenever they finally did it) BMW appologized for using slave labor during the war....

Would you rant about how you didn't own stock in the company during WWII?

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ATW
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I personally never owned slaves or condoned the practice. My family for the most part hadn't come to the US yet when slavery was legal. Why should I be part of an apology? No elected or appointed official in the US government owned slaves or as far as I can tell condoned the practice.

IMO getting a formal apology is just a pretext to move forward the idea of reparations. Because once you accept that you were personally in the wrong by apologizing, its a very short step to admitting that you owe recompense to the ones you abused.

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Everard
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As was said previously, the government that perpetrated the crime isn't dead yet. While you or your parents may never have owned slaves, you benefit from slavery because the US government and the US economy benefitted from slavery, and you are a part of the economy, and a beneficiary of the government.

There's a direct connection between slavery, and the wealth and prosperity, freedom and safety, and infrastructure we all now enjoy. Just because we didn't take part in the crime that allowed development of our nation, does not mean that the development doesn't benefit us.

Its kinda like knowingly taking dirty money. You may not have robbed the bank, but by taking cash for payment when you work for a bank robber, you're benefitting from the crime.

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ATW
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quote:
Originally posted by Everard:


There's a direct connection between slavery, and the wealth and prosperity, freedom and safety, and infrastructure we all now enjoy.

Because the south was so much richer than the north? [Wink]

To the extent that people made wealth off of the misery of slaves, that wealth was wiped out in the Civil War or in the aftermath. The south that you read about in the history books about that era reflect a rural and impoverished society for the most part.

If there's a "direct connection between slavery, and the wealth and prosperity, freedom and safety, and infrastructure we all now enjoy" then it should be easy to show.

What piece of infrastructure that we all now enjoy came from slave labor? In what manner do we owe our safety to slavery? In what way is our current freedom due to the fact that slavery existed?

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ATW
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Not meaning to come across as too aggressive there. But honestly a person can't help but contribute something to the national economy just by existing.

I don't think that makes the national government liable for the actions of the pedophiles, rapists, murderers, tax evaders, coyotes, etc. just because they contribute something to the economy.

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ne_plus_ultra_1
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Nope, just existing doesn't mean someone is contributing.

And what's this talk about safety? You say it like it just naturally goes along with freedom.

Sorry to assault your posts, I basically agree with your viewpoint ATW.

[ March 10, 2007, 12:06 PM: Message edited by: ne_plus_ultra_1 ]

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ne_plus_ultra_1
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And why is Virginia apologizing?

Virginia paid owners to set slaves free 172 years ago.

http://www.liberiapastandpresent.org/ColonizationSociety.htm#quote2

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Tristan
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quote:
Personally I would fee much better about the English if the made an official apology to the Irish for the genocide under Cromwell and the passive ethnic cleansing of the famine. So I would imagine that a lot of American blacks might feel the same.
Prime minister Tony Blair has issued a number of apologies on the most varied of topics. Some examples:

Blair issues apology for Irish Potato Famine

Blair (almost) issues an apology for the slave trade

Blair issues an apology to a heckler

And he issues an apology for the hurricane Katrina (well, not really)

Quite the apologetic guy. Although he has yet to apologise for the Iraq war. It will come though, mark my words.

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cherrypoptart
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Rich whites brought blacks here for cheap labor. Now blacks commit a disproportionate share of crime, especially violent crime. If anyone should apologize, it is the rich white Southerners who brought the blacks here in the first place and then unleashed all their progeny on America for all time.

The same thing is happening now with Hispanics. They are being brought here for cheap labor, and future generations will pay the price for this short-sighted greed in higher crime rates.

It reminds me of the Native Americans who cozied up to early whites and sold their land for baubles. Greed and arrogance. Their people too surely paid the price for it.

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ne_plus_ultra_1
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Umm, the same thing is happening now with Hispanics?

They are brought here against their wills, their families broken, subjected to weeks on inhuman conditions on the journey, whipped, etc...

Hispanics are coming here on their own and most people don't want them here.

The same thing is not happening.

Who are these supposed rich white southerners who profited from having blacks work their land?

One can easily point fingers and say blah blah blah here's a new problem for you, let's blame these guys. What is the actual problem in present time? Is there one or is a problem being created by some group with something to gain?

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kenmeer livermaile
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If we were all alike the great melting pot would be a device for mixing water with water.
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cherrypoptart
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Do you have any idea how many illegals are in prison in California for crimes other than just being here illegally?

The rich white southerners who profited are all long dead. But they should apologize anyway. But not just to the black people they enslaved. They should also apologize to the honest law-abiding Americans who are victimized all too often by the descendants of slaves, including other descendants of slaves who are law-abiding.

The problem at the present time is that we haven't learned that cheap labor costs more in the long run. We haven't learned that you can't put the genie back in the bottle. That's the problem.

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kenmeer livermaile
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"The rich white southerners who profited are all long dead. But they should apologize anyway"

This adds a new meaning to the expression 'roll over in your grave'.

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tonylovern
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what year did columbus sail the ocean blue? what year did the civil war start. this illusion that some of you have, that slavery only benefitted the south is ridiculus. the people that penned and signed our constitution owned slaves. did they all live in the south? american slavery lasted right around 300 years. from the 1500's to the 1800's. the very roots of this nation, were tended by slaves. just because our country didnt exist untill 1776, doesnt mean that all of the building that happened before that, is irrelevant.

i know, i know, you believe what the public school system taught you. pilgrims, built everything. quakers, and mormons completed our society, and handed it to our forefathers, ready made, as a great melting pot, just waiting for some evil southerners to come along and invent slavery.

every aspect of our society has benefitted from slavery, every state, every county, every small town, because all of the 13 origional colonies benefitted from slaves. then about 7 generations under them benefitted from slavery, before 1776. then another 2-3 generations benefitted, before the slave trade became majority southern. then another 2 generations benefitted, before the civil war. granted, our government only benefitted for around 100 years. still, our government benefitted.

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ATW
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If the government of Great Britain would like to apologize for the slavery allowed by their government from the 1500's until 1776, that's their business.

If you would personally like to apologize for "your part" of the benefits gained from slavery, have at it. Its an open forum and your apology would likely be fun reading.

I'll argue that slavery was a bad system and was a detriment to the country. And to the extent that it had any impact on every state, every county, and every small town, that it was a negative impact overall regardless of whatever benefits it might have brought to an individual slave owner.

Have fun arguing in favor of the positive impact of slavery. If it was so great and brought so much prosperity to our country, maybe we should bring it back.

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tonylovern
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um wow, have you really missed as much of this conversation as it seems? the first line you wrote, makes it seem like you haven't even read the title of the thread.

your second line makes it seem like you missed the difference between the population and the government.

as for the rest, do you honestly not see how 300 years of mostly free labor, built the gross national product of this nation, faster than it would have without slavery? do you honestly deny, that without slave labor, this country could not have grown as fast as it did?

sarcasm really is much better when its subtle. i wont deny it, i'm not the sharpest tool in the shed. but at the very least, i know the difference between a member of society, and a piece of property denied basic human rights.

(edited to correct spelling)

[ March 11, 2007, 12:01 AM: Message edited by: tonylovern ]

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ATW
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quote:

do you honestly not see how 300 years of mostly free labor, built the gross national product of this nation, faster than it would have without slavery? do you honestly deny, that without slave labor, this country could not have grown as fast as it did?

[/QB]

Since when was slavery free and not have a cost associated with it?

Yes, I honestly deny your assertion that sinking a country's wealth into forwarding the institution of slavery propelled the country ahead faster than it would have progressed without slavery. [Roll Eyes]

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moodi
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tonylovern,

I have 3 notes to respond to you,

1- How would an apology bring any closure to the entire ordeal? Would African Americans feel "freer" when they hear government officials say the magic words "We're sorry"?

2- There are other people who need to apologize as well.... such as slave owners and traders in Africa who sold slaves to Europeans.

3- 300 year of free labor is being compensated for through programs that support education and welfare in the African American community. And that is the right way to pay for all of our nation's past mistakes.

Today's taxpayers are not responsible for their ancestors' mistakes. No matter how people spin this political issue, there's no moral basis for a refund check for anyone... period.

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tonylovern
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quote:
Since when was slavery free and not have a cost associated with it?

that was where the word mostly came in.


quote:
Yes, I honestly deny your assertion that sinking a country's wealth into forwarding the institution of slavery propelled the country ahead faster than it would have progressed without slavery.
sinking the countries wealth? shouldn't that read, building the countries wealth? i really can't believe that your suggesting that slavery made this country somehow, impoverished? how big of a burden do you think all that cheap labor was? how far, would you guess, that supporting that cost inhibitive institution set us back?
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tonylovern
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moodi, please note.
earlier this page
quote:
so no, i dont think the governments should apologize. i do think they should be more selective of thier trade partners when it comes to countries that still harbor slavery.
also earlier this page.

quote:
i dont think this is about apologizing for individuals, its about the governments apologizing. my geat grandfather may be dead, but the government he paid taxes to isn't.

now that i'm done quoting myself. i'll address point 3. i respect your opinion on the effectiveness of affirmative action. my view on it, is that maybe it will even out in another 8-10 generations. despite the fact that i've already said i dont think the governments should apologize, i want to know, if affirmative action, is a valid attempt at recompense, and the govenment has already admitted guilt, how would an apology affect anything? how would saying i'm sorry, over something that they've admitted guilt over, make any difference?

(edited to add) i thought affirmative action was the refund check?

[ March 11, 2007, 12:40 AM: Message edited by: tonylovern ]

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moodi
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Affirmative action is more like the extra credit question teachers throw in tests so students do not complain about tough exams.

By refund checks, I meant reparation nonsense.

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tonylovern
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i'm sorry, when you used the word compensated, i thought you were talking about recompense. like we we're actually trying to, well compensate.

so now i'm really confused, how does throwing a freebie to the whiners, compensate? how does that extra credit question help those who are either too proud to use it, or unable to use it? how does affirmative action enable blacks, in all black neighborhoods, to get an edge up, on they're peers. maybe edge up was the wrong wording. maybe i should have said equal to. oooohhh, i get it now, affirmative action does work. everyone in harlem, watts, and crenshaw, is on an even playing field, to each other.

dont get me wrong here, i'm not suggesting reparations, no need to take from the governments larder. i personally dont think any kind of reparations would be effective though. which is why my advocacy, points more towards existing inequalities in social structure. things we can affect, to make a profound improvement in todays society. things like limiting trade with india, untill they go out of thier way to end the slavery that exists there. things like moving displaced industry, to mexico, so that the good people there, can make enough money, to support thier families, so no one thinks they need to do anything they can, including putting themselves into the custody of people who are going to lock them in a hotel, room and pimp them out, to get to america.

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EDanaII
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An apology.
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EDanaII
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The BBC would like to apologize for that last apology. It is not BBC policy to apologize, the persons responsible for that last apology have been sacked
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EDanaII
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The BBC would like to apologize for the last apology on the last apology for the previous quote, the persons responsible for sacking the last persons responsible for the last apology have been sacked. And now time for something completely different...
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Everard
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"Yes, I honestly deny your assertion that sinking a country's wealth into forwarding the institution of slavery propelled the country ahead faster than it would have progressed without slavery. "

Totally irrelevent. Is an economy more efficient if there are lots of bank robberies? No. Should that be a reason why people can benefit from bank robberies without acknowleding that robbing a bank is a crime?

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cherrypoptart
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The descendants of Africans brought here as slaves don't deserve an apology. They should thank their lucky stars they didn't grow up in that hell hole of an AIDS ridden cesspool called Africa.

The people that deserve an apology are the honest law-abiding Americans today who are victims of black crime. The slave owners of yore need to apologize to them for the high price today's victims of crime have to pay for that "free" labor.

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Gaoics79
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The first question is: who should apologize? No one alive today owned slaves. For that matter, few individuals alive today have ancestors who owned slaves.

What about government?


quote:
As was said previously, the government that perpetrated the crime isn't dead yet. While you or your parents may never have owned slaves, you benefit from slavery because the US government and the US economy benefitted from slavery, and you are a part of the economy, and a beneficiary of the government.
It's not clear to me that our government is wealthier because of slavery. Any wealth that slavery helped create may have been eradicated in the civil war, which was caused by slavery, among other things.

But ok, let's say the government and the country did benefit from slavery? The next question is: apologize to whom?

No one alive was ever a slave. No one alive was ever shipped on a slave ship from Africa. So who is owed an apology? On what basis?

For causing economic harm?

But what economic harm are we speaking of here?

quote:
The descendants of Africans brought here as slaves don't deserve an apology. They should thank their lucky stars they didn't grow up in that hell hole of an AIDS ridden cesspool called Africa.
This is essentially correct. Slavery was evil and horrendous... for the slaves. But the people demanding apologies and reparations are not, nor have they ever been slaves. This is not equivalent to BMW apologizing to people who actually were slaves in BMW's factories.

The undeniable fact is that every single slave descendant is undoubtably better off living in America, with all of its racism and injustice, then anywhere in Sub Saharan Africa.

It's an elemenatary principle of tort law, and I'd argue, a fundamental principle of justice, that you only compensate a person for the damage that you actually caused. To the extent that money can put them back in the postion they would have been in, but for your wrongful act, you pay. But in this case, money can't put them in their original position, because but for slavery, most of the descendants of slaves would be scratching an existence in some poverty AIDS ravaged hell-hole in sub-Saharan Africa. The poorest most miserable ghetto dweller in the most crime-ridden tenement in the United States has a higher standard of living than your average person living anywhere in Sub Saharan Africa.

So if you want to talk about economics, there's just no basis for an apology, and no basis for reparations.

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cherrypoptart
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Since I am absolutely certain none of my ancestors had slaves, I can say this with all seriousness.

The obvious solution to this problem is to track down all the descendants of slave owners and make them the slaves of the descendants of slaves. That's in the Bible too. An eye for an eye.

Then if the black people today want to set their slaves free, that's their prerogative. If they want to crack the whip on 'em or rape them or worse, so be it. But the world will be watching.

And the most important thing is that we can finally put this whole sad sordid affair behind us so that us poor white folk don't have to be burdened with this nonsense ever again.

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kenmeer livermaile
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"The descendants of Africans brought here as slaves don't deserve an apology. They should thank their lucky stars they didn't grow up in that hell hole of an AIDS ridden cesspool called Africa. "

Whoa. Not that I think anyone owes anyone an apology in this matter, but some folks might thank their lucky stars they didn't grow up in (name the inner city ghetto nearest to you).

As for your poor white folk's burden... the strain must be agonizing.

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TommySama
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It is [Frown]
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kenmeer livermaile
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'I was born a poor black child.'
Syeve Martin, "The Jerk"

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lambchopsofgod
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quote:
Originally posted by Hasukawa73:
The process just gets ridiculous. It is like asking ME to apologize for something done by my brother. I am NOT the one who did it. In fact, I find what was done abominable. So why am I aplogizing? I can express SYMPATHY, but an apology implies a wrong-doing. I did no wrong. Sure, my many times greatgrandfather may have, but I can no more apologize for him than I can my brother. I can simply offer you my sympathy. 'Nuff said. Otherwise, we get something as ridiculous as the list above.

we're not talking about apologizing as individuals, but as a nation.
by your logic, it would be ridiculous to apologize for something you did twenty years ago because all your cells have been replaced since then

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kenmeer livermaile
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Well, responsible or not, I AM sorry for slavery. It hurt lots opf people and has caused discomfort in my life too.

There's apologizing and there's accepting blame.

Take today's Turks. THEY didn't massacre the Armenians, but they sure hate to say they're sorry it happened... unless they can be allowed to deny historical truth: their forebears massacred Armenians in humongous numbers.

Well, my foprebears owned slaves. My founding fathers put up with it.

I'm sorry, y'all. Wish it hadn't happened. Don't want to see it happen again.

There. That was *such* aburden...

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feuhrerfam
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I must say I am one of the most sympathetic people out there, but I agree with Lambchop. That sounds so funny. I think that the governments have done a lot to appologize and make up for slavery. Now it is up to us as individuals to live out our lives in a way that makes up for it. Live our lives to the fullist of their potential and don't repeat the horrible mistakes of our past. Educate our children and record the past so that it will never happen again.
The only way to give justice to the past is to move on and remember. Learn from what has been done. Do better!!!

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