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» The Ornery American Forum » World Watch » WW 12-17-09 -- Sarah Palin's Book (Page 1)

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Author Topic: WW 12-17-09 -- Sarah Palin's Book
Jon Camp
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Linkie to Rhino Times even though it's on the front page now also.

[ January 01, 2010, 04:43 PM: Message edited by: Jon Camp ]

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Rallan
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If we were to make an Orson Scott Card Op/Ed Drinking Game, that column would get us all wasted. It's got everything right down to "I'm a Democrat so if I say nice things about conservatives it means I'm being honest and unbiased", a Card classic that's been missing from too many of his recent columns.
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Chromesthesia
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Is my brain addled, but does Orson Scott Card do the EXACT THING HE'S COMPLAINING ABOUT in this article?
I've read several articles by him, and he could be reviewing a cookie and suddenly go into a liberals are bad diatribe.
Maybe it's me. Maybe my brain is scrambled. I wouldn't be surprised if it was.

Also one could get drunk on the wimpiest wine or even water from one of his columns.
They'd get alcohol poisoning.

[ January 02, 2010, 01:16 PM: Message edited by: Chromesthesia ]

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munga
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Chromesthesia,

You got it.

That's why OSC isn't respected in his own house (this forum).

Of course, that's not why HE wants to say this is so.

[ January 02, 2010, 01:22 PM: Message edited by: munga ]

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Chromesthesia
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Hoom. I thought I was the crazy one. Honestly, this has been making my brain explode for years.
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kenmeer livermaile
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Drinking is a game? And here I thought it was my job...
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rignerd
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I guess I don't understand the anger at OSC. If he is a committed democrat and he sees an action or pattern of actions , that are unwise, illogical, or self destructive, and he tries to stop it then he's disloyal? I think that being unwilling to listen to the argument of those who disagree with you is a classic sign of a cool aid drinker.
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PSRT
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While its reasonable to accept someone's word that they are a member of a group the first time he criticizes that group, while praising the opponents of that group, as honest internal dissent, its not so reasonable to do that the 152nd time he does that, without ever criticizing the group's opponents or praising the group.
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Chromesthesia
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quote:
Originally posted by rignerd:
I guess I don't understand the anger at OSC. If he is a committed democrat and he sees an action or pattern of actions , that are unwise, illogical, or self destructive, and he tries to stop it then he's disloyal? I think that being unwilling to listen to the argument of those who disagree with you is a classic sign of a cool aid drinker.

Seems like for a Moral Conservative and an Old Skool
Democrat he sure does nothing BUT criticize Democrats, liberals, all of that. It's as if all he can do is say something bad about them, a democratic candidate, various senators and all of that.
I don't think he criticisms Republicans as harshly as he does Democrats, but it's not exactly right to be too harsh, and he's constantly unfairly harsh.
After all, liberals such as myself are not evil. Neither are conservatives. We have different points of view.
He just doesn't seem to have that sort of we have different points of view I disagree thing going on, it's mostly, You guys are evil and stupid for not agreeing with me about doing the same thing I'm accusing you of doing.
It drives me up a tree, and once again I really should just not read his articles as I just don't LEARN anything from them at all except that OSC articles are bad for my IBS.

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Rallan
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quote:
Originally posted by rignerd:
I guess I don't understand the anger at OSC. If he is a committed democrat...

I lol'd [Smile]

On a more sensible note, I don't think anyone here's angry at Card. Exasperated maybe, but even that's probably too strong a word for most of us. Let's go with bemused, it's probably best. If you read back over Card's political opinion pieces for the last however man years, you'll find that he's pretty much an uncritical GOP echo chamber writing whatever it is that the typical dedicated Republican voter is supposed to be thinking this week. His "I'm a Democrat so that means this week's attack on liberals / support for conservatives is unbiased" ploy gets more amusing every time he plays it.

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stayne
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It should also be noted, however, that we rarely praise at the same level of volume as we bitch. OSC still identifies as a Democrat for a reason, after all.
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Rallan
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Hey that just means that my criticism of Card is unbiased. I mean if I was a conservative who was trash-talking a proud Democrat like OSC then you could just discount me as a partisan shill. But since I'm a liberal who's pooh-poohing the columns of this noted Democrat, then its obviously a fair and balanced critique from one of his own [Smile]
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msquared
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Did you guys read the article. He says he is in the process of reading it, just not finished. His point is that there are many people on the left who are knocking the book but who have not read it at all. His first line of the review is "I'm still in the midst of reading Sarah Palin's book, Going Rogue." So he is reading it but he has not, at the time of the article, finished it.

He even says he disagrees with many of her view points, but that he finds the story compelling. I think he sees a parralle between how he feels he has been treated in the media because of his views on homosexuality and how she has been treated.

msquared

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Al Wessex
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So, it's a political narrative in the form of a personal narrative. Basically, she's a worthy pol because she's a hard-fightin' person. We know the story already, and the book has the details she wants to tell you. "Going Rouge" (Richard Kim and Betsy Reed) tells pretty much the same story, but with a completely different set of details.

OSC is very bright, as is Newt, among others who support her even though IMO her IQ is probably barely above normal. I think they find her both appealing and malleable and loaded with a huge amount of ambition. I haven't read the book, so I'm doing what the rest of you are doing by reflecting on someone else's reflections, and he hasn't read the whole thing, either.

I'm reminded of a quote of Lincoln (another ambitious politician with an appealing story) about another book, which probably would work as a complete review for hers: People who like this sort of thing will find this the sort of thing they like.

[ January 04, 2010, 09:18 AM: Message edited by: Al Wessex ]

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munga
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M2-

The reason we are laughing is the OSC's message is, "I have the book, I am reading the book, but when I have read the book I'm not going to write a response, I'm just going to let you rely on others. However, other people who rely on other people and who don't read the book themselves, don't deserve to have an opinion."

This is the entertainment he promised us.

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kenmeer livermaile
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Why anyone would want to read a book "by" Sarah Palin is beyond my comprehension.
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Al Wessex
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Probably hers, too...
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bringer
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Here we go. I thought better of you. You remind me of a circle of simpering chimps, targeting the next victim. Aren't you ever going to run out of poop?
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bringer
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An overwhelming theme in many of OSC's writings, if you recall, is nakedness. The protagonist stands in full view of all detractors, deformed and defenseless, left only to find what is within to transcend this present adversity.

So here I find a gauntlet of high minded chair dwellers, relishing the tawdry expose', the skewering and spit roasting of yet another public figure who has dared to disagree.

In your cyber safety you grow bold. Your rouge is not on camera.

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Al Wessex
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"Here we go. I thought better of you."

Given the subject, I didn't realize that would hit a sensitive spot. If you meant me specifically, I have my moments, too. I'm most troubled by her imperfect grasp of grammatical English. I take that as a bad reflection on her, regardless of anything she might say about death panels or her own spotless record. The above comment,

"It should also be noted, however, that we rarely praise at the same level of volume as we bitch."

works in pretty much all situations here, not to mention that any barbs thrown on one side of any argument is usually well-matched by ones thrown on the other.

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Al Wessex
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"In your cyber safety you grow bold. Your rouge is not on camera. "

Bringer, people of unremarkable accomplishments or modest ambitions like me typically don't put themselves into the spotlight. Those that do will be judged and savaged where they fall short. Palin falls so far short that she is laughable.

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munga
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Bringer is so clever I'm not sure what he/she is saying.
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OpsanusTau
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Me neither.

Maybe that it is somehow beneath "ideal" human behavior to criticize ideas and/or their expression?

Or, God forbid, laugh at them?

I have always figured that the whole point of public expression of ideas is to see what other people think of them. If we all acted grave and respectfully approving of everything anyone said, it would be hard to tell what was a good idea and what was a foolish one.

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Al Wessex
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Yeah, but h?? quip I clipped had a snippy lip. ??e's a player! I see ??e's new and is surely Wrong. But I'm new too, and I've been wrong before.

[ January 06, 2010, 07:03 PM: Message edited by: Al Wessex ]

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bringer
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So backtrack through and retract statements that make no reference to an idea, a critical analysis, an expession of belief, rather the "barb" is directed at word choice or defective presentation of ideas.

I have stood in the spotlight, groping for the next coherent syllable. I have left print, my print, exposed for all detractors and have paid a high price and that's ok. Its worth it. If one out of a thousand gets an idea that it's about something bigger than me as I stand naked and babbling, then, yes, it's worth it.

Orson Scott Card knows that. Who's Sarah Pallin?

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Al Wessex
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"So backtrack through and retract statements that make no reference to an idea, a critical analysis, an expession of belief, rather the "barb" is directed at word choice or defective presentation of ideas."

This thread reflects that we have stuped to her level.

"...as I stand naked and babbling"

This is Ornery, not Hornery.

"Who's Sarah Pallin?"

She's pallin' with those wantin' her to be leadin' the country. They will be very pleased with her book.

"I have stood in the spotlight, groping for the next coherent syllable."

Then I guess it's your move.

[One beer, one beer only.]

[ January 06, 2010, 08:36 PM: Message edited by: Al Wessex ]

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OpsanusTau
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quote:
rather the "barb" is directed at word choice or defective presentation of ideas.
It's a little difficult for me to tell, but I think you're saying that it's inappropriate to criticize word choice or the manner of presentation of ideas.

It's an interesting idea, but wrong!

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by PSRT:
While its reasonable to accept someone's word that they are a member of a group the first time he criticizes that group, while praising the opponents of that group, as honest internal dissent, its not so reasonable to do that the 152nd time he does that, without ever criticizing the group's opponents or praising the group.

So if an american critizes America 152 times while praising opponents of America, do we get to say that he's not a real American?
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Pete at Home
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Did anyone read Fish's article?

"For many politicians, family life is sandwiched in between long hours in public service. Palin wants us to know that for her it is the reverse. Political success is an accident that says nothing about you. Success as a wife, mother and citizen says everything.

Do I believe any of this? It doesn’t matter. What matters is that she does, and that her readers feel they are hearing an authentic voice."

Wow. No wonder some folks find her so threatening.

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TommySama
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quote:
"Here we go. I thought better of you."

Given the subject, I didn't realize that would hit a sensitive spot. If you meant me specifically, I have my moments, too. I'm most troubled by her imperfect grasp of grammatical English. I take that as a bad reflection on her, regardless of anything she might say about death panels or her own spotless record. The above comment,

"It should also be noted, however, that we rarely praise at the same level of volume as we bitch."

works in pretty much all situations here, not to mention that any barbs thrown on one side of any argument is usually well-matched by ones thrown on the other.

When one plays Pong, the Other's balls they play with are really their own.

[ January 07, 2010, 05:59 AM: Message edited by: TommySama ]

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PSRT
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quote:
So if an american critizes America 152 times while praising opponents of America, do we get to say that he's not a real American?
If you can find an american citizen who ONLY says bad things about America (note the second half of my statement about Card, please), while praising, say, China, then we could get into a discussion.

Note, though, that there are real differences between membership in a group such as "American Citizen," and a group such as "Democrat," so your analogy will never really hold well, and should not be used if one wants to actually dig into the meaning of my remark.

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Brian
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Pete:
quote:
Did anyone read Fish's article?

"For many politicians, family life is sandwiched in between long hours in public service. Palin wants us to know that for her it is the reverse. Political success is an accident that says nothing about you. Success as a wife, mother and citizen says everything."

Wow. No wonder some folks find her so threatening.

Do you really want someone who is a part-time politician running the country?
We can all speculate about what a politician's motives and priorities really are (and most of us do), but she comes right out and says that doing well as a wife and mother is more important to her than being a good politician.

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Al Wessex
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I hate to bring up such a delicate point, but her success as a wife and mother is then a qualification for office. We can argue what the ideals are for those roles, but I don't find her to be quite the model for motherhood or wifeliness, either.

If those things really are more important to her than political office, then she would be better served by spending her time focusing on her Down Syndrome baby, her teenage-unwed-mother daughter and her other children.

As for her husband,

"That day in sunny Texas when the divorce rumors were rampant in the tabloids, I watched Todd, tanned and shirtless, take the baby from my arms and walk him back to the ranch house so Trig could nap while I made calls. Seeing Todd’s blue eyes smiling, I chuckled. ‘Dang,’ I thought. ‘Divorce Todd? Have you seen Todd?’"

Well, the distraction could seriously interfere with her ability to focus on abstract priorities of the job. I can't quite imagine her saying "Import/export ratios factoring into the expected outflow of jobs overseas...Dang! Todd, I'm sorry but I can't get that out of my mind!"

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bringer
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I read Fish's article and I don't consciously remember checking his syntax. I did get the point- the idea- that he was trying to convey, although it was hard to dismiss the image of him typing away in an adult diaper circled by menstruating monkeys throwing poop at him.

Sadly, my take on it is that this Sarah Palin is someone who really believes in something bigger than than her great home life. It appears that she loves her family but has the courage to stand in front of poopthrowers even though she is not a career politician.

Huh. In the words of Crocodile Dundee the best man when the mud splattered bride enters with a snarl, "Yeah...good choice mate!"

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NobleHunter
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She's not a career politician? What's her day job again?
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bringer
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That would be in Brian's post. He calls her "part time" and quotes Fish's report in which she aspires first, he says, to succeed first "as a wife, mother and citizen". Note that any political success, he says, she insists will have to sandwich itself accidentally between those three.
Detractors away! She sounds like the female reincarnation of King Leonides.

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NobleHunter
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I was thinking more of Charles I. Or was her only major accomplishment going to be leading men to slaughter in a valiant but hopeless battle?

Oops, I guess I'm one of those detractors you're talking about.

[ January 07, 2010, 09:56 PM: Message edited by: NobleHunter ]

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bringer
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I can not accept that you do not know the historical message of the "hopeless battle" of Thermopolyea. Say it isn't so.

Because a citizen king could walk away from family and face certain death with only the comfort that maybe, just maybe, he could delay the tyrant for one more week, democracy in embryo survived.

I thought it was clear. Maybe that part comes through better in the book.

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munga
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quote:
Originally posted by NobleHunter:
She's not a career politician? What's her day job again?

worth a repost
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NobleHunter
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Except the Spartans were not a democracy.

Or did you miss the meaning of the king part?

And I doubt Leonidas gave a fig about Athens.

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