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» The Ornery American Forum » General Comments » Some proposed ground rules for the Presidential election

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Author Topic: Some proposed ground rules for the Presidential election
jedilaw
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1) For those opposed to Bush: bad news does not become good news simply because it reflects poorly on Bush. Problems in Iraq and/or economic difficulties aren't something to smile about, no matter what you think it will do to Bush's poll standings.

2) For those opposed to Kerry: yes, he's changed his mind over the course of 20 years in the Senate. Facts have changed over that time, too. If he hadn't ever changed his mind, would that be a sign of intelligence, or willful obstinance?

3) For people on both sides: neither one of these men is the Antichrist, so stop acting like the election is a case of good versus evil.

4) Democrats are not uniformly soft on defense and big on government welfare programs. Republicans are not uniformly evengelical conservatives, nor are they all just looking for ways to make the rich richer at the expense of the little guy. Stop acting like either party has a monolithic body of supporters.

5) Voting for or against Bush is not voting for or against terrorism. Neither party is in favor of terrorism, and neither party is likely to either completely defeat it or simply give in to it. We're going to be stuck in a war of attrition, worldwide, for a loooong time to come.

6) Tracking polls in April and May are useless. Talk to me when we're in the post-convention phase.

Just some thoughts for the debate...

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msquared
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Amen brother.

msquared

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Ray Bingham
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Yes, but if one was the antichrist, which one would it be? [Big Grin]

--Ray

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Ron Lambert
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Jedilaw, in regard to your "ground rule" #2, the issue is not whether Kerry has changed his mind on anything, but rather how often he has changed his mind on how many issues, compared to everyone else.

As for ground rule #4, Democrats may not be uniformly soft on defense and big on government welfare programs, but they are mostly. Certainly more so than Republicans, historically.

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Yossarian5555555
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I would agree with these for most presidential elections, but as a proud member of ABB (anybody but Bush) I have to say that from what I can say Bush is evil! Evil I tell You!! [Wink]
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jedilaw
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Ron, that approach is still painting with a broad brush. I can't help noticing that many of the folks who are most comfortable with the Democrats-as-soft-on-security meme are highly offended by the Republicans-as-lapdogs-for-the-rich meme. "Soft on defense" is okay, but "tax cuts are mostly for the wealthy" is class warfare, eh? Note, I am not saying you fit this pattern. But your quiet insistence that Democrats really are soft on defense (polite, but with clear enough implications) made me think about the approaches people take towards stereotyping the two parties.

What I am trying to establish with this thread is a basic set of parameters that can allow for a healthy and spirited debate, but one that avoids the most egregious stereotypes and leaps into logical fallacy. If the rules seem strange or useless to you, by all means suggest different ones. I am hopeful that we as an online community can extend the basic model of the Ornery rules and tailor them to the context of the Presidential election season.

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Kamisaki
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I like your rules a lot, jedi, but judging from past experience, I don't have too much hope of everybody actually following them.

That's no reason not to try, though. I applaud the effort.

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potemkyn
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jedilaw,

I think that part of the problem is the candidates themselves. You listen to Kerry, Bush is "anti-science" and just an evil guy. You listen to Bush, Kerry is a wishy-washy elitest liberal.

I'd like to not hear anything until three weeks before the election but that's life.

Potemkyn

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Murdok
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Jedilaw - you sure know how to take the fun out of politics. I bet your are the life of the party in your circle....phphtphphtphphtphphtphphtphphtphphtphphtphphtphphtphphtphphtphphtphpht!
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Ray Bingham
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Jedi: Murdok makes a very profound point with the below quote. I think you should reconsider... I don't think one can hold up to this sort of logical argumentation.

quote:
phphtphphtphphtphphtphphtphphtphphtphphtphphtphphtphphtphphtphphtphpht!
I commend Murdok for his detailed analysis.

I would add... [Razz]

That said, I want you to know that you're still free to come to any parties I have, if you're in the area.

--Ray

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Murdok
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Thats Mr. phphtphphtphphtphphtphphtphphtphphtphphtphphtphphtphphtphphtphphtphpht! to you Ray!
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jedilaw
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With four kids, I get lots of rasperries (and other assorted bodily noises) at home in RL. Online, they kind of lack immediacy, don't you think?

As for the fun factor in politics, fun was when the doofus running for 1L president at Tulane Law dressed in drag as a campaign stunt. He was never going to have the Button within reach. This race, however, is real, and deadly serious. Call me an old coot, but I can't bring myself to see this election cycle as "fun." Depressing is more like it, really, because I honestly don't see a good result either way...

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Murdok
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Well Jedi - as a 46 year old kid with 3 boys - raspberries are always appropriate in situations like this election.

It's as serious as you can get. It's no less than the direction of the country that is at stake. But it is also highly depressing too, getting ready for all of the negative advertising, all of the incriminations and propaganda. The worsening and deadly situation in Iraq, the constant threat of terrorism...so many things to get depressed about. Losing your job, losing your house, losing your chance at the golden ring as it gets even more elusive as each day goes by. So yes - raspberries are just the thing to take the edge off of a rough time.

Anyway - they taste great on ice cream.

[ April 21, 2004, 10:57 PM: Message edited by: Murdok ]

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FIJC
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quote:
"so many things to get depressed about."
I don't view life like that right now.
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