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Author Topic: Lost city of Atlantis found
Sancselfieme
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Researcher claims ruins are in the Mediterranean

quote:
Robert Sarmast said sonar scanning of the seabed between east Cyprus and Syria revealed man-made walls, one as long as 3 kilometers (2 miles), and trenches at a depth of 1,500 meters (1,640 yards).

"It is a miracle we found these walls as their location, and lengths match exactly the description of the acropolis of Atlantis provided by Plato in his writings," Sarmast said, referring to the ancient Greek philosopher.

"We have definitely found the Acropolis of Atlantis," he affirmed, adding the site was 80 kilometers (50 miles) southeast of Cyprus.


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JoshuaD
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The world never stops amazing me.

[ November 15, 2004, 05:24 AM: Message edited by: JoshuaD ]

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kidzmom
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Hang on, I thought Atlantis was on another planet, and you had to go through a stargate....oh, wait a minute--I've been absorbing too much of my kids' tv shows while working in the kitchen [Razz] .

But seriously, anyone else sense just a hint of professional jealousy in the Cypriot Minister of Archeology's response? [Smile]

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FIJC
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Yeah, I think that this announcement is way cool.
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Richard Dey
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And I think it is a bit premature; who, 1373, is reading text "referring to the ancient Greek philosopher" Plato or even to the 'classical Greek philosopher' Platon ... if Platon says it is 'beyond the pillars of Herakles' and finds it in quite the opposite direction? Are we referring to Platon because he is right? or citing Platon because he wrong?
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Gaoics79
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Bah. After all the hype about Atlantis in TV shows, novels, movies, etc... the real thing is going to be pretty disappointing. Probably just another primitive ancient civilization, maybe with running water if they're lucky. Now if they find ancient DVD players, or better yet, magic crystals, then I'll get more excited [Smile]
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Anonymous24
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Who even knows if this is really it, or if it really existed in the first place? What does it prove, if we find an ancient city off Cyprus' coast?

[ November 15, 2004, 05:02 PM: Message edited by: Anonymous24 ]

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FIJC
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quote:
"Who even knows if this is really it, or if it really existed in the first place? What does it prove, if we find an ancient city off Cyprus' coast?"
Have you ever studied ancient history? I find this possibility to be way cool and quite fascinating...but perhaps I am just a big nerd anyway. Perhaps the average person does not find this fascinating afterall.
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WarrsawPact
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I love it.

Although it would be very interesting to see how this apparently very advanced civilization really worked. This could take a long time to totally uncover, even if somehow they get a massive research grant.

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WarrsawPact
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These are the dimensions Plato used to describe Critias in Atlantis.

Canal From Sea

* Canal 300' wide, 100' deep
* 50 stades from the sea was a hill where the rings of Sea and Land were built (5.5 miles)

Inner Ring

* Next ring of water was 1 stade - 600'
* Center land was 5 stades in diameter - 3000' (.5 miles)
* Surrounded on both sides by a wall covered with orichalcum

Middle Ring

* Next set of water / land rings were 2 stades in width - 1200'
* Surrounded on both sides by a wall covered with tin

Outer Ring

* Ring closest to sea and its internal land both 3 stades in width - 1800'
* Surrounded on both sides by a wall covered with brass
* Contained horse racing track

Outer Wall

* Wall which circled the outer ring at a distance of 50 stades (11 miles in diameter)

Bridges

* Bridges were 100 feet wide (a sixth of a stadia)
* Walled
* Towers and gates on the bridges
* Guarded at either end

Plain

* Oblong, 3000 stadia long, 1000 stadia wide (330 miles long and 110 miles wide)
* Open to the sea on the south (where the canal exited to the sea)
* Surrounded by mountains to the north

Ditch around the Plain

* 100 feet deep
* 1 stade wide
* 10,000 stade long (surrounding the whole plain) (1100 miles long)

Military

* Plain consisted of 10 stade square lots - 1.1 mile x 1.1 mile
* 1.1 miles = 5808 ft there we get 33,732,864 sq. ft = 774.4 acres
* acre = 43560 sq. ft or 4840 sq. yd. for total of 60,000
* total acres = 46,464,000

Each lot supplied 1/6 of a war chariot

* 2 horses and riders
* ten pair of chariot horses, a horseman, and a charioteer
* 2 heavily armed soldiers
* 2 slingers
* 3 stone shooters
* 3 javelin men
* 4 sailors (for fleet of 1200 ships)

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Sancselfieme
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Don't forget Atlantean fire, which was probably some kind of slow-burning lime or something.
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A. Alzabo
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quote:
Have you ever studied ancient history? I find this possibility to be way cool and quite fascinating...but perhaps I am just a big nerd anyway. Perhaps the average person does not find this fascinating afterall.
I agree. While I never expect "lost" bits of history to match the legends that sprout from them exactly, it's cool when some things do match up when we find them.
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Hannibal
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i am far more interested in carthagian history!
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WarrsawPact
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Yeah, but their civilization at the bottom of the Mediterranean is way too broken-up to be useful.
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aupton15
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"Have you ever studied ancient history? I find this possibility to be way cool and quite fascinating...but perhaps I am just a big nerd anyway."

Yeah, it probably does make you a nerd, but it's pretty cool anyway. We can all be nerds together...but I don't know if anybody will out-nerd Warsaw's list of dimensions. Just the fact that you can find that is pretty nerdy [Wink]

Interesting question- What would you do to be able to scuba or something like that around these ruins? Can you imagine any cooler thing in the world?

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Everard
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ERm... getting crushed while scubaing around the ruins sounds pretty... gory to me. Not so cool, though.

I hope this pans out, simply so we can get rid of the "lost civilization of atlantis" mysticism crap.

Unless, of course, it turns out they really DID have teleporters and lasers. In which case I'll happily eat my shirt.

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A. Alzabo
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quote:
I hope this pans out, simply so we can get rid of the "lost civilization of atlantis" mysticism crap.

A friend of mine is really into that sort of "ancient mysteries" stuff. He's always coming up with "proof" of where Atlantis really was, or that the FreeMasons control the world.
I, too, would like to get this settled.

quote:
Unless, of course, it turns out they really DID have teleporters and lasers. In which case I'll happily eat my shirt.
Then we could teleport your shirt right back out of you (or use the lasers to get it, I guess -- but I'd choose the teleporters).
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ATW
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quote:
Originally posted by Everard:

Unless, of course, it turns out they really DID have teleporters and lasers. In which case I'll happily eat my shirt.

I'd replicate something tastier. Bananna pudding?
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canadian
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A shirt made of Banana Pudding? I'm there!
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Tezcatlipoca
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quote:
i am far more interested in carthagian history!
Heh, yet another civilization that can be found at the bottom of the Mediterranian Sea (which is Latin for "inland sea" to pour ....salt.... on the wound).

Let's play pretend. You be Hannibal, and then I Cincinatus. You march all the way up the Iberian Peninsula, and struggle up the Alps. I sail to Carthage (since you took all the troops with you) and then procceed to kill all the men and enslave the women and children. I then take your fair city of Carthage apart stone by stone, and load it up on my ships. I sail out to sea, and then proceed to dump them. Rinse and repeat, till all we have in an open field where once Carthage stood. Then, I salt that open field so that nothing will grow there. Finally satisfied that Carthage only exists because Romans will remember it as a complete victory, I return home in time for an evening drink, and your army falls apart and you commit suicide. Rome continues to rule Europe for 500 years and then the Eastern Roman Empire for another 500 after that.

Carthaginian history is only interesting because it is part of Rome's early history.

History Score:
Rome = 1
Carthage = Gone

[ November 16, 2004, 06:11 PM: Message edited by: Tezcatlipoca ]

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Ben
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Saw some things about how Atlantis was supposed to be beyond the pillars of Hercules, specific sizes or etc. and figured I'd put in a thought I've heard elsewhere...

-descriptions of Atlantis may be skewed by a slight mistranslation or slip of tongue resulting in people looking elsewhere or for the wrong things. IE bank and band are quite two different things with only one letter difference.

So one description of being "bigger than 2 countries" may actually be "between 2 countries"...

Another thought is people got the locations or names of certain landmarks wrong. There's a theory that the mentioned "pillars of Hercules" weren't near Spain but referred to much closer landmarks near Greece...

In any case, I'll take the banana pudding shirt and add a side of butterscotch socks [Razz]

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Redskullvw
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Tez

You have that cynical outlook on history which I so secretly love.

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Tezcatlipoca
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What can I say? I like Romans. They appeal to the Diet-Coke of Evil in me.
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Pete at Home
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I can see how a Cincinnatus appoach could appeal, e.g. when fighting a Bin Ladin.

But ... where did this venom come from? This can't be mere rivalry, can it?

Pete, thorougly ignorant about Carthage.

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WarrsawPact
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The Punic Wars.

Rome decided it was time to take out the garbage when a seemingly unstoppable Carthaginian army trampled its way from Spain towards Italy. And what stopped them was the crushing blow to morale when they found out there was no home to go back to even if they managed to sack Rome.

At least, that's how the story was told to me. Early next year I'm going to be reading a lot about Roman history to get a mroe complete story.

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Tezcatlipoca
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Pete, here is a good site that reviews the Punic Wars in detail. It is nice and short, and should be an easy read. Also there were 3 Punic Wars.

History of the Punic Wars

quote:
The Romans, deeply suspicious of a reviving Carthage, demanded that the Carthaginians abandon their city and move inland into North Africa. The Carthaginians, who were a commercial people that depended on sea trade, refused. The Roman Senate declared war, and Rome attacked the city itself. After a seige, the Romans stormed the town and the army went from house to house slaughtering the inhabitants in what is perhaps the greatest systematic execution of non-combatants before World War II. Carthaginians who weren't killed were sold into slavery. The harbor and the city was demolished, and all the surrounding countryside was sown with salt in order to render it uninhabitable.


[ November 20, 2004, 04:27 PM: Message edited by: Tezcatlipoca ]

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Naldiin
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Tezcat, what you're ignoring about Carthage is that it was the heir to Tyre post-Assyria in the 'Inland Sea' so to speak.

And actually, the Latin name for the Mediterranian translates to "Our Sea".

Carthage had a huge impact on western civilization, not the least of which was the spreading of the phonetic alphabet. We get all of the phonecs words (phone, phonetic, etc) from Phonecian, literally, "Sea People". Carthage was the capital of the largest phonecian empire ever built. Her trade routes streached from Britian in the north (For tin and lead) to the Steppes, and everything between.

Carthage was, in many ways as responsible for the spread of hellenic culture as Alexander. Carthage itself was surprisingly Greek given its location, and it spread the Greek language as the language of trade and commerce to places Rome never even reached. What's unfortunate is that Roman history, of course, boils all this down into three wars, ignoring the fact that Carthage had been a trade mecca for centuries before Rome had even expanded beyond Italy.

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Tezcatlipoca
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Naldiin, it does not mean "Our Sea."

quote:
\Med`i*ter*ra"ne*an\, a. [L. mediterraneus; medius middle + terra land. See Mid, and Terrace.] 1. Inclosed, or nearly inclosed, with land; as, the Mediterranean Sea, between Europe and Africa.

2. Inland; remote from the ocean. [Obs.]

That's Latin.

Also, Carthage is gone. Exterminated. Dissolved. Carthage has joined the choir invisible. It's run down the curtain, kicked the bucket. It went to meet its maker.

All the greatness of Carthage did not stop it from being wiped from the face of the earth very quickly. How long did it take for Rome to fall (mostly from internal decay as well.) The victors write the history book, and Carthage lost so badly they are barely mentioned in Western Civilization history books.

I for one believe that Rome had an exponentially bigger impact on western civilization. I would be happy to debate about it though.

You don't see many great civilizations in Africa after Carthage do you? Sure it helped spread Greek language, but Europe didn't speak Greek for 500 years. They spoke Latin.

Also, how many Phonecian empires were there? [Wink]

[ November 21, 2004, 04:53 AM: Message edited by: Tezcatlipoca ]

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Weeder
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"Diet Coke of Evil"? Thats a new one. What does it mean, Tez? Are you trying to say "Evil Lite"?

By the way, the other Phoenician empire was based in Tyre. Alexander took it. What do you think of him?

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Pete at Home
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Thanks for the link, Tez. Agreed this is fascinating stuff.

But doesn't your exposition mix and mismatch facts from the 2nd and 3rd Punic wars, which were generations apart? Or have I misunderstood?


quote:
Let's play pretend. You be Hannibal, and then I Cincinatus. You march all the way up the Iberian Peninsula, and struggle up the Alps. I sail to Carthage (since you took all the troops with you) and then procceed to kill all the men and enslave the women and children. I then take your fair city of Carthage apart stone by stone, and load it up on my ships. I sail out to sea, and then proceed to dump them. Rinse and repeat, till all we have in an open field where once Carthage stood. Then, I salt that open field so that nothing will grow there. Finally satisfied that Carthage only exists because Romans will remember it as a complete victory, I return home in time for an evening drink, and your army falls apart and you commit suicide. Rome continues to rule Europe for 500 years and then the Eastern Roman Empire for another 500 after that.

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Hannibal
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you know that carhtage lasted many years too, it was a much older city then rome, but the carthagians were commercialists while the romans were expensionists

the massacre you mentioned was the third punic war, at that time carthage was not an empire any more.

as for your "war game" bear in mind that we were talking about the times of 220 BC, the way you are talking it seems like in a month you finish things off. the fact that hannibal crossed the alps make him get to rome so fast that they couldnt form an army fast enough. and you are talking about sending a fleet to carthage and destroying it.

further more, hannibal left half his amry to his brother Asrubal as backap in carthago nova southern spain)

even more, who's tactics are generals of today copying? Hanniabl's. Napoleon admited so himself. the "Schliffen plan" the germans used in WWI (that didnt work), the israeli army in the 6 day war, and so on and forth all of them copying from hannibal. so who has influenced the western world? (hack.... even Scipio who bit hannibal at the end copied from him)

P.S have you played Rome Total war? it is so fan to play for carthage there and crash the romans with elephants!

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Tezcatlipoca
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quote:
"Diet Coke of Evil"? Thats a new one. What does it mean, Tez? Are you trying to say "Evil Lite"?
It's from the movie Austin Powers. That is what Dr. Evil calls his son, because he just isn't evil enough. [Smile]

Yes Pete, I stated the wrong information because I did not know the correct information at the time. The link also cleared that up for me. The link helped me clear up my facts too.

quote:
you know that carhtage lasted many years too, it was a much older city then rome, but the carthagians were commercialists while the romans were expensionists
I don't care how old it was compared to Rome at the time, my point is that Rome is still around today, while Carthage doesn't even exist. Why should we admire something that so completely wiped from history?

Im glad you talk about Hannibal too, because for all the great things he did, Carthage was still wiped out. How great was he then? Sure he may have been a winner on the loser's side, but he still lost. You even said so yourself that they emulated his tactics, thus making them worthless to him. And about the way I am talking about it, I was just proving a point. The Carthaginians were not too bright leaving Carthage undefended. It was like taking the goalie out in a hockey match. Where does that slot into Hannibals great tactical genious, leaving the thing that matters most undefended?

And yes, I have played Rome: Total War. I have been a fan of Total War since before Shogun: Total War came out. I was reading about it getting developed and licking my lips probably two years before it came out. So far Rome is the best by graphics and gameplay. They really worked out the system. Now they need to go back and give Shogun a rewrite with Rome software, and I will be in paradise.

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WarrsawPact
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Hannibal -

I'd really like to hear more about what in Hannibal's tactics generals are using today. Are we talking about a pincer attack here? A focused cavalry assault? Leaving the heart of your homeland undefended from sudden attack while you build a seemingly unstoppable army and a widespread empire that nearly controls trade and language nearly everywhere it goes? [Wink]

The tactics generals today are using are steadily leaving 3rd Generation Warfare. You're seeing us get more and more into facing 4GW. We started getting good at it in Vietnam, and we're getting very good at it now. So, generals are leaving the seeds of 3GW behind now -- Hannibal need not apply in most situations.

Picking apart a state or a straightforward top-down criminal organization is relatively easy. We've got so much flexibility in destroying hierarchies that hardly anyone is stupid enough to try to challenge us -- even China only wants to build up just enough to serve as a warning, and Saddam was quite shortsighted.
--------------------
Tez has a point about endurance. When a civilization bites it that hard against a monolithic foe, students of history take that a sign that the society was discredited. These kinds of civilizations often are treated as the evolutionary losers. If we happened to gain a thing or two from them, so much the better (but, they say, we probably would have figured out a lot of that stuff anyway).

But the Roman influence was so enduring and so profound that after the several hundred years it took to die, its seal was forever emblazoned on history.

The phonetic alphabet was indeed a huge contribution... but the ideas driving society have all been strongly influenced by the history of Rome and the reverberations from its fall. It died a long hard death.
Think of the Romantic period. Think of how fond the Founding Fathers of the US were of speaking highly of someone by saying they were a "perfect Roman." Think of Mussolini and how his vision of a reconstituted Roman empire shaped World War II. Think of who used an eagle as their symbol of nobility and courage. Think of how much the US and Britain talk about Rome when they discuss the concept of empire (thoguh both could arguably learn as much or more from Carthage based on how they built their empires).

It's not that Carthage didn't have much to teach. It's that everyone has paid more attention to Rome. Like I said, it all comes down to how discredited Carthage became after its captial was razed.

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Tezcatlipoca
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There was a great point my history teacher made come across very clearly. It doesn't matter how advanced your civilzation is, if someone can make better weapons than you, then you will probably be conquered. You could have a great civilzation, let's say Eygpt, with thousands of years of history and culture, but still in the bronze age. If they were attacked by a group of iron age tribes, then all their culture and history would do nothing to save them.

This is why I really just don't hold much for Carthage. I respect civilizations that survive and endure. To me, culture is secondary. I would rather learn about a group of tribal warriors who survive century after century against every foe than a culture that Carthage which, even though they were mighty and advanced, still disapeared from the face of the world.

I don't even know what a Dodo looks like, and frankly I couldn't care. They were wiped out extremely quickly. Compared to the dinosaurs which ruled the earth for 130 million years, and only finally went extinct (at least all the large ones) because of a global cataclysm. Even today you can see the decendants of the dinosaurs. How many civilizations are decendant from Rome even though the Roman Empire itself is gone? How much can you say the same for Carthage? That is what I think makes a culture great.

[ November 22, 2004, 01:27 AM: Message edited by: Tezcatlipoca ]

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Pete at Home
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Tez, does Rome still exist, other than in name? If we could pull Cicero from the grave where Marc Anthony laid him, Cicero might argue that the Roman Republic was defeated by the Roman Empire, which was defeated subsequent civilizations that called themselves Roman. The fact that your enemy absorbs your name as part of the hostile takeover, does not transform your ignominious defeat into victory. Even if the Turks hadn't renamed Constantinople to Timbuktu, and it they'd called themselves Greeks rather than Turks (just as one famous Greek named Cleopatra passed herself off as an Egyptian queen just because she was queen of Egypt), would that change the fact that a new people and a new civilization had taken over?

Take the English kings, which from William the Conqueror to Henry IV, never spoke English in public. "English" kings that didn't speak English. Because they call themselves English kings, does that make King Harold the last of the real English kings (the one that caught the arrow in the eye in 1066 at the battle of Hastings) any less defeated than Hannibal?

One might argue that defeat is defeat, whether your enemy burns our house or lives in it, whether he blots your name out, or takes it for his own.

[ November 22, 2004, 03:23 AM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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Tezcatlipoca
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Pete, I thought I already made clear that Rome right now is just as gone as Carthage was back then. I used Dinosaurs and Dodos for my example. Both of them are extinct. All of the land from both those civilzations are long gone in to other hands. But what I stress is that the culture of the Romans have survived to this very day, influencing all the Western Civilizations that have followed it. Just as there are no more T-Rexs, we still have reptiles and bird, who can be traced back to dinosaurs. A civilization may fall, but it's culture, the thing that makes it a civilization, continues. How that culture stands up to the tests of time defines how strong, and thus great, that culture really is.

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One might argue that defeat is defeat, whether your enemy burns our house or lives in it, whether he blots your name out, or takes it for his own.
That is true. But then no one could really have a claim to anything, since no one has been able to become immortal yet (although I do have plans.) Just wait for Leto II to arrive.
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Hannibal
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i am actually talking more about outflank then the pincer movment. outflank is a more sophisticated.

Tez, ofcourse you are right, roman legacy holds much more then carhtagian one, next week in sunday the discovery channel (atleast the one aired in israel) is going to show a documentary on carthaghe, we all be samrter after we watch it.

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Tezcatlipoca
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quote:
we all be samrter after we watch it.
Im sorry, I couldn't help myself. [Smile]

I don't have cable television though, just a TV to watch DVD's and videos on. Remember how I can't stand television?

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Hannibal
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ok
then after I watch the show, it is called "the rise and fall of carthage" i will tell you what they said.

i didnt know you cant stand television.

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Weeder
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I wonder how famous Rome will be when the Chinese take over the wrold next century. [Smile] .

More seriously, what I'm trying to say is that Rome is seen as influential today not because it produced more advances before it was defeated than any other civilization. It is seen as influential becasue it was only a few centuries between its fall and the development of military-grade explosives in the part of the world (Europe) where Rome was most vividly remembered. Befor that technological advance, barbarians could overwhelm and empire with sheer fighting prowess independent of their level of advancement, and civilizations churned and rose and fell as a result. Since that technological advance, however, all new empires have been members of the same (European) civilization.

So if the ancient Egyptians had developed military explosives, we would today say how the Pyramid builders were clearly superior to Nebuchadnezzar. If the Chinese had kept a monopoly on gunpowder, we we would be wondering whay the Ming dynasty's civilization was so much more enduring than the Shoguns'.
(anachronisms used for metaphorical effect not for historical accuracy)

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