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Author Topic: Prostitution
Sunil Carspecken
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I'm taking a class on women and crime. We had to do papers either for or against legalized prostitution. Interestingly enough, my teacher reported, about 80% of us wrote in favor of legalized prostitution. Apparently juries are also very reluctant to convict for it. People don't want prostitutes on their own block or area, but appart from that they don't seem to care. If it were legalized the areas it could be practiced would be limited anyway. Is legalized prostitution innevitable and reasonable or is it too anti-family values to gain support?
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Everard
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Its too "anti-family values" to gain support, but legalizing prostitution would be a good way to cut down on crimes against familes.
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The Drake
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Well, it is legal in Nevada. It would be a state-by-state issue. I don't think you'll be seeing too many other states follow suit. It is more likely to become a blue law. If juries won't convict, prosecutors and police will probably stop wasting their time.

Prostitution will go out, not with a bang, but a whimper.

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Sunil Carspecken
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yeah I guess I'd hate the democratic party to be seen as the pro-prostitution party even though I support legalization =)

there's an interesting quote in trainspotting (the book) where rent boy says he thought prostitution was more honest than dating just for the purpose of sex (aka 'playing')

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Jesse
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Well, legalizing it tends to cut down on the exploitation of women and reduce violence against them, so long as those enforcing the regulations are not corrupt.

The thing is, in Reno truck stops, there are more lot lizards banging on the doors of cabs than anywhere else in the country (and I really have been everywhere). Twenty miles out of town there are 3-4 houses of prostitution (they advertise on the CB for some reason).

So, if "safe" legal prostitution is available twenty minutes away, how does illegal prostitution continue to flurish?

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Gaoics79
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In Canada we are very progressive; prostitution is perfectly legal here. However, "solicitation" on public property is illegal.(public property including your car) It's also illegal to have a "common bawdy house". See if you can figure that one out [Smile]

It reminds me of our anti sodomy law, only in reverse.

[ December 12, 2004, 01:20 PM: Message edited by: jasonr ]

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WarrsawPact
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Jesse - Because families get suspicious when daddy goes forty minutes out of his way one night.
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Haggis
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Well, maybe 42 minutes.
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WarrsawPact
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Speed limit is 75 there, isn't it?
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Haggis
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Didn't think of that one WP [Big Grin]
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Heptarch
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Legalization of various things -- Prostitution, Drugs, etc. -- MAY make them more easily regulated in some ways. "May" being the operative word. That is the only benefit. The only one.

It most definitely WILL make those things explode into a boomer business. What would this do to perceptions about sex and love? We already have enough screwy ideas about that stuff, today.

And then there's the fact that any legal business has the right to advertise, within certain limits. Even adult bookstores and lingerie shops. You can't restrict First Amendment rights on a legal trade, now can you? So you would have to be prepared for seeing this sort of stuff advertised in all sorts of places. Newspapers. Flyers. Stuff included in other packages. Ever walked down the strip at Vegas, and had umpteen different non-English speaking people shove pictures of naked women in your face, trying to get you to come to this or that stripjoint? I hate Vegas.

There's already underage drinking... there would then be underage hookering, on both sides of the pimp. (Customer and Prostitute)

These are just a few likely consequences to think about. This issue is a whole can 'O worms that we really, really don't want to open.

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potemkyn
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Just so you know, if you look in the archives, there's a fairly long disscussion of prositution for your edification.
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Jesse
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Thing is WP...these are long-haul truckers. No one much notices what they do in their mandatory 8 hours off.

When I looked into it, the state of Nevada has really strict health checks for liscensed prostitutes, so maybe these are woman who have an STD and can't work legally.

I still don't get why a person who frequents prostitutes would perfer the more dangerous option, unless maybe it's a pricing thing.

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Sunil Carspecken
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Heptarch, underage prostitution is already rampant (for prostitutes, not sure about customers). Sex slavery is also more common than you'd think. I think legalizing prostitution would be a good way to distinguish legitimate prostitution from underage/forced prostitution.
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FiredrakeRAGE
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It would probably make prosecuting underage/forced prostitution easier, too. By removing the 'victimless crime' segment of prostitution, there are likely to be many more people willing to speak with the police about it - and significantly fewer customers willing to look the other way.

--Firedrake

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RickyB
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Exactly. When you criminalize something, you push it underground.

Why is it easier for a high school kid to get a dimebag of weed or a half gram of coke than a bottle of scotch? Because the people who sell scotch have licenses to worry about. Drug dealers do not.

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potemkyn
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Ricky,

I don't think that's really true. Alcohol is owned by parents who have it in their houses. Kids get to that much easier than they can get access to any illegal drug.

So lets take it to the next step where you've legalized weed. Now the parent can legally buy it and keeps some for enjoyment purposes. The same principle applies to weed as alcohol and it becomes more available to kids.

As for legalizing prostitution to protect those hurt by it, I would consider that one of the weakest solutions to the problem. Prostitution largely springs from poverty so there are much better ways to reduce the criminal element involved by reducing poverty.

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FiredrakeRAGE
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Potemkyn -

Yes, solving poverty would be a solution. There's only one problem - actually solving poverty, and solving it without forcing all commerce under the hand of the State. Also, the positives and negatives of each solution need to be taken into account. Legalizing prostitution increases the number of rights a citizen has. Throwing money at the problem decreases the number of rights a citizen has. Also, if the drug war is any indication, it is not an effective solution.

As for alcohol - yes, kids can get to it easier. So? Are you trying to say that it is up to the government to police what a child does with the possessions of their guardian in the guardians own home? If you cannot be expected to control your children in your own home, the problem is more than alcohol being legal.

--Firedrake

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potemkyn
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Firedrake,

"As for alcohol - yes, kids can get to it easier. So? Are you trying to say that it is up to the government to police what a child does with the possessions of their guardian in the guardians own home? If you cannot be expected to control your children in your own home, the problem is more than alcohol being legal."

I was merely trying to squash the idea that legalizing weed or other druges would make them less available to minors who shouldn't be in possession even if it is legal.

Potemkyn

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RickyB
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"there are much better ways to reduce the criminal element involved by reducing poverty. "

Yeah. We seem to be doing such a great job at that, so why don't we peg our hopes on that.

Look, prostitution isn't called the oldest profession for nothing. It's always been around and always will, in the most affluent and poorest societies alike. Criminalizing it is like criminalizing the ocean.

The experience of societies where it's been legalized shows that at worst you have the same amount of problems, only you waste less money trying to prevent them and therefore have more money to do harm reduction with.

It's like the old saying about the flu: 14 days with medical treatment, 2 weeks without. So why waste money on the medicine and mess your body with alien substances?

As for high school kids and alcohol - not everyone's parents keeps booze lying around, you know, and the fact is that every survey and study I've heard of (and I've read quite a bit on the subject, to put it mildly) shows what I said to be true: easier for kids in the US to get illegal drugs than booze. Even if your dad has a bottle of Jack Daniels, you can't just take it and down it with your friends. He's gonna notice it's gone and whoop your butt. You may be able to party on your folks' liquor once in a blue moon, but that's not the problem.

As for weed - all studies show that more minors use it in the US than in the Netherlands (not by a large margin, but the point remains).

With weed, it's even more true than with liquor: the vast majority of parents with HS kids don't toke (most people tend to stop smoking weed when they grow older and settle down), and definitely don't just keep bags of weed lying around. Whereas bottles of booze are more difficult to conceal and are culturally more acceptable to keep in plain view, weed is much easier to hide - especially in Holland, where it is conveniently packaged in small, seedless and stemless bags of high quality herb. A 1.5 gram bag of northern lights or purple haze is smaller than a tic-tac box and lasted me personally for 4 days in beautiful Amsterdam, during which I smoked almost non stop. So even if mom and dad both toke regularly, Junior would by no means necessarily have access to their stash.

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potemkyn
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"As for high school kids and alcohol - not everyone's parents keeps booze lying around, you know, and the fact is that every survey and study I've heard of (and I've read quite a bit on the subject, to put it mildly) shows what I said to be true: easier for kids in the US to get illegal drugs than booze."

Please show me. This goes against everything I have ever seen.

"You may be able to party on your folks' liquor once in a blue moon, but that's not the problem. "
I respectfully disagree, the majority of drunk driving is done on parent's booze.

"With weed, it's even more true than with liquor: the vast majority of parents with HS kids don't toke (most people tend to stop smoking weed when they grow older and settle down), and definitely don't just keep bags of weed lying around."
Perhaps that's because it is illegal? I'd certainly have less qualms about having an illegal substance in plain view if it wasn't illegal.

"So even if mom and dad both toke regularly, Junior would by no means necessarily have access to their stash. "
Regardless of how wrong that sentence sounds (seriously...I just started laughing when I read it), I'm not sure that's the case.

Let me know where you are getting your info from though, I'd be interested to read up on it.

Potemkyn

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FiredrakeRAGE
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Potemkyn -

I'm not seeing your point. The topic (prositution) does not seem to fit in with your example. You're unlikely to find prostitutes hired by parents laying around where children can get to them. As for your railing against marijuana, if a parent allows a child to partake of marijuana, they're responsible. It doesn't matter if it is more or less accessable. The responsibility, if marijuana is legalized, is not on the shoulders of society, but of the parents.

--Firedrake

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kelcimer
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quote:
Prostitution largely springs from poverty
I thought it sprung largely from people wanting sex. Now I will give that prostitutes predominately come from the lower income bracket.

Make it legal.
Why?
Less crime.
Can then be regulated i.e. health standards enforced and taxable.

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Ikemook
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"You're unlikely to find prostitutes hired by parents laying around where children can get to them."

I have a friend at UCF, and he told me this interesting story. Seems one day one of his roommates, who always had women over, brings over this unusual woman. Unusual in that she dressed kinda odd (to put it nicely). Well, the roommate and woman went in, and later she came out and had a smoke. As he was passing by, she eyed him and said something to the effect of "Hey hon, you wanna go?"

Sorry, but that sentence of yours gave me this mental picture of prostitutes lying around a house like rags, draped over the furniture and ceiling fans and whatnot. And then I remembered that story ^_~

--David

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Lewkowski
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Legalize Prositituion to save Social Security!

[Wink]

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The Drake
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quote:
Originally posted by Lewkowski:
Legalize Prositituion to save Social Security!

[Wink]

How? The elderly patrons have heart attacks, and stop drawing checks?
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RickyB
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http://www.methamphetamineaddiction.com/PressReleasePages/marijuanaeasiertoget.html

http://www.detnews.com/2003/specialreport/0311/18/a06-326986.htm (just one person's opinion cited here)

http://forums.gamespot.com/gamespot/show_messages.php?board=314159273&topic=17749730&page=5 (another testimony)

There are a bunch more of the same vein. Apparently the CASA survey was the first to attempt to prove this, but it has been known for years. Some kids have access to their parent's booze, but I believe most don't. So most kids who want to drink have to buy it. Drug dealers don't card.

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Heptarch
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No offense, but it strikes me as broken or short-sighted reasoning:

Prostitutes are a problem. They require X amount of resources to police.

Therefore, legitimize them, and because they're not a crime, they no longer require money from THAT budget. Look better for the police, but wait!

Now, they require money from the welfare budget -- how much money do they really make? Or the health and human services budget. STDs and drug abuse become a much bigger issue. Do they get to collect unemployment when they get "fired"? And how do you know when they are not being employed?

The implications of this sort of thing are so far-reaching, that while some people can claim we'll be better off, this is something that needs to be looked at far more comprehensively. It is massive-scale social change, far more altering than giving equal rights to women and then blacks.

[ December 13, 2004, 06:29 AM: Message edited by: Heptarch ]

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RickyB
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"Now, they require money from the welfare budget"

Why exactly is that? If they make money, they don't require money from welfare, and if they don't then they would have required it anyway.

"Or the health and human services budget. STDs and drug abuse become a much bigger issue".

Why? How does the expenditure grow? How does legalizing prostitution create more addicts?

As for your claim that legalizing prostitution (i.e., simply changing how you address something that's already there) is more altering than enlarging the electorate by 12 or 50 percent (i.e. creating conditions that simply weren't there before, and not just changing what you called these conditions) - I find that to be a preposterous statement. Just because you make a bold and sweeping statement doesn't mean it's true.

In fact, and this is not a personal attack against you, this is the kind of vacuous statement that is used to inspire fear from change. "The implications are huge! this will change the very fabric of society!" No, it won't. Are there implications? Of course. Everything carries implications. Should they be considered? Of course. That's precisely what we're doing. But hyperbole of the sort you offered is simply static noise that hinders rational thought.

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philnotfil
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quote:
Originally posted by potemkyn:
Ricky,

I don't think that's really true. Alcohol is owned by parents who have it in their houses. Kids get to that much easier than they can get access to any illegal drug.


Parents do drugs too.

"I learned it by watching you dad. I learned it by watching you.

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witless chum
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My personal experience, even into college when I was pre-21, was that drugs were easier to get. But my parents and my good friend's parents didn't drink much, so what little alcohol they had around would have been missed. If I didn't know someone at school who was dealing, I certainly knew people who were using, so that wasn't hard to find out.

As for prostitution, I'd guess legalizing it would lead to a spike, followed by a return to current levels, because that's been the experience of Europeon countries that legalized drugs. One problem I'd see with it would be how zealously police would pursue unlicensed prostitutes and pimps. Maybe quite, it'd be in the government's interest to not have unlicensed, non-tax paying prostitution, but even if their pretty lazy about it, it doesn't seem worse than the current situation.

Dan

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FiredrakeRAGE
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We should not be asking 'Why don't we legalize prositution'. We should be asking 'Why is prostitution illegal?'

Buisness transaction or not, what buisness does the government have interfering in adult relations behind closed doors?

--Firedrake

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Dave at Work
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quote:
So, if "safe" legal prostitution is available twenty minutes away, how does illegal prostitution continue to flurish?
Why pay more at a convenience store when you can go across town to the supermarket for better prices and selection?

I think the reason the "lot lizards", as you termed them, flurish is convenience.

On the question of the legalization of prostitution I am of two minds. My libertarian tendancies lead me to say legalize it. My Catholic upbringing says not. Whats a person to do?

Also I find it interesting that Nevada, a generally "Red" state has legalized prostitution, but Las Vegas, the genearally "Blue" city makes it illegal within city limits. I would actually expect the opposite, but what do I know. [Smile]

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FIJC
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I am really not comfortable with the idea of legalized prostitution.
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RickyB
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And your comfort is the determining factor?
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Snowden
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I'm not comfortable with it either.
I don't think that anyone grows up wanting to be a prostitute. I think it's necessarily hurtful, orI can argue from the fact that legalizing it coarsens our culture, like profanity on the television. With prostitution's strong connection to drug use, this gives evidence that it's a profession of circumstance, not of choice.

All that said, the government has boundaries, and I just don't think that putting people in jail for giving sex for money is within those boundaries. I'd rather put the prostitutes in social programs and put the Johns in jail.

[ December 13, 2004, 02:42 PM: Message edited by: Snowden ]

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ed
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i'm pro-legalization. i favor it for the following reasons:

1. IMV, the government should not prohibit consensual business transactions.
2. prohibition of prostitution very much strikes me as legislating morality.
3. i suspect that legalizing prostitution would reduce the prevalence of drug use among that segment of the population.
4. IMV, it's taxable income. call it a "zipper tax" if you like.

ed

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FIJC
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quote:
"And your comfort is the determining factor?"
Ha! I wish, but alas, the only time in my life thus far that I ever truly wear the pants is in my own very small 1-bedroom apartment, LOL. Seriously though, I am bothered by the practice of prostitution, both morally and socially. I don't think it is beneficial for any civil society to have a culture saturated with coarse sexual activity as a societal norm. At the same time, I realize it is naive to control all types of detrimental behavior. I think the matter of prostitution is best dealt with on a state/local government level. I suppose this shows my faith in the moral sensibility/high-ground of the average American citizen, but I suppose that if it comes to the point where not even local governments and the people realize how vice-activities, such as prostitution, errode the basic fabric of society, then we would most certainly deserve the total societal implosion that would surely be coming our way.

[ December 13, 2004, 02:45 PM: Message edited by: FIJC ]

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Snowden
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quote:
prohibition of prostitution very much strikes me as legislating morality.
We already legislate morality. That's not a big deal, we just have to make sure we do it with care and thought.

[ December 13, 2004, 02:49 PM: Message edited by: Snowden ]

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ed
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in your view, what morality is enforced by legislation? we may be approaching this from very different places, snowden. :>

ed

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