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Author Topic: He didn't even LOOK Asian and/or muslim
TS Elliot
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The guy who London police shot dead (executed is more like it) yesterday, was a goddumn Brazilian!! And if you look at his pic on the BBC website, he's quite white, he looks mediterranean, the pale variety at that. I mean, you would think that the London police would be able to distinguish enough between that and an Asian looking guy, NOT to pump him full of lead (FIVE bullets to the head) without stopping to check whatever they supposed to check??

According to eye witnesses, (good thing there were more than one) the guy tripped, WAS HELD DOWN by two policemen, while a third shot him. Now, I don't know shiite about guns but I imagine that to give 5 headshots you must be so close as to sorta recognize ethnicity on some one. And it's not as if these police were ignorant hicks who never saw an Arab, they are city cops!!?

Maybe the Brazilian thought he had to run away from a bomb?
Anyway, this is very disconcerting.
This, and the nine attacks on mosques and 200 violent incidents muslims in Britain, including one beating to death of a muslim or asian looking man in Nothingham by five white blokes.

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javelin
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quote:
if you look at his pic on the BBC website, he's quite white, he looks mediterranean, the pale variety at that.
Oh, so it would have been better if he looked like he was "a muslim"? Because he was a white guy, they should have let him get away?

Are you trolling again? Or do you really believe this stuff you spout?

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FiredrakeRAGE
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TS Elliot -

They were not looking for an Arab, they were looking for a bombing suspect.

The idea behind the 'shoot-to-kill' policy (I hate that - when else do you shoot?) is to stop suicide bombers before they can detonate off their arsenal. While I disagree with the policy, the actions of the officer on the scene might have been justified by that policy.

Five shots is not too many. Until the suspect is neutralized, they should keep shooting. Under the misguided policy mentioned above, it is not unreasonable to assume that 'neutralized' means 'dead'.

That said, whomever is responsible for the policy needs to be fired, and the policy should be revised.

--Firedrake

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TS Elliot
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quote:
Originally posted by javelin:
Because he was a white guy, they should have let him get away?

Please re-read. Then admit to unwarranted indignation and holier-than-thou behavior.
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Archer
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quote:
Originally posted by TS Elliot:
quote:
Originally posted by javelin:
Because he was a white guy, they should have let him get away?

Please re-read. Then admit to unwarranted indignation and holier-than-thou behavior.
You're the one who was saying they should have suspected him or not suspected them based on his skin color.

Maybe you should look into your own sense of indignation and holier-than-thou behavior.

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David Ricardo
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Scotland Yard admitted that they made a mistake. While it certainly an embarrassing incident and a tragedy, this is the "Brave New World" that we live in.

At least, Scotland Yard and British security forces had the courage to accept responsibility and accountability immediately. They made a mistake, and then they admiited it immediately.

What more do you really want?

In terms of national security, our government(s) will always make some mistakes here and there. As long as they admit to their mistakes and demonstrate accountability for their actions, then that is the most that we can expect from them.

[ July 24, 2005, 02:21 PM: Message edited by: David Ricardo ]

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Lady Starkiller
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quote:
In terms of national security, our government(s) will always make some mistakes here and there. As long as they admit to their mistakes and demonstrate accountability for their actions, then that is the most that we can expect from them.
Exactly. What more can you ask? Asking for total perfection is asking for godhood, and no human will ever reach that. It's a tragedy. It's a mistake. But we operate, all of us, on the best information that we have at the time. I'd rather a suspected terrorist be shot dead and be wrong about him than let him loose and be right...

Morality must always bow to necessity. THAT is the law of the land.

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Archer
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quote:
Originally posted by Lady Starkiller:
I'd rather a suspected terrorist be shot dead and be wrong about him than let him loose and be right...


I'd rather a suspected terrorist be let loose than to shoot dead innocent people who might be terrorists.

There's a lot more innocent people in the world than there are terrorists. And being innocent should be a defense against being shot by the police.


I'd like to know what led up to the shooting. Like how many times the police yelled at him stuff like, "Stop or we'll shoot", "Freeze, police", "get down everybody, the guy in the jacket has a bomb", etc.

Most innocent people don't take off running when confronted by the police. I'm wondering what was going through the guy's mind.

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Lady Starkiller
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quote:
I'd rather a suspected terrorist be let loose than to shoot dead innocent people who might be terrorists.
To that I would respond: not if there is reason to believe that there is an imminent threat. In a perfect world, I'd agree with you, but this world isn't perfect, and I'm a ruthless bitch.

quote:
There's a lot more innocent people in the world than there are terrorists. And being innocent should be a defense against being shot by the police.
Agreed - but how do the police make that judgement? It's easy to say after the fact. But someone acting suspicious - someone acting as if he poses an imminent threat to those around him - almost deserves to be shot for pure stupidity. Less contamination in the gene pool... [Big Grin]

quote:
I'd like to know what led up to the shooting. Like how many times the police yelled at him stuff like, "Stop or we'll shoot", "Freeze, police", "get down everybody, the guy in the jacket has a bomb", etc.

Most innocent people don't take off running when confronted by the police. I'm wondering what was going through the guy's mind.

Agreed. And that's part of what I'm trying to say, though I'm perhaps not phrasing it well...
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FiredrakeRAGE
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Lady Starkiller said:
quote:
Agreed - but how do the police make that judgement? It's easy to say after the fact. But someone acting suspicious - someone acting as if he poses an imminent threat to those around him - almost deserves to be shot for pure stupidity. Less contamination in the gene pool... [Big Grin]
Lady Starkiller,

In this case, the man in question was handed a death sentence for running from the police. That is the bottom line.

He demonstrated no hostile intent at all. From all accounts he did not pull a cell phone, say 'I have a gun', or any of the myriad other possible threatening actions.

That is wrong no matter which way you slice it.

--Firedrake

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Hannibal
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look at the hipocracy of the world.

if heaven's forbid we israelis whould have accidently killed some civilian by mistake, all the world will say that we target innocent civilians that we torture and subude the palestinians etc.

and here to london police accidently killed some one suspected of terrorism, and people treat it as a mistake

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Archer
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quote:
Originally posted by Hannibal:
look at the hipocracy of the world.


Yep.

quote:
Originally posted by FiredrakeRAGE:
In this case, the man in question was handed a death sentence for running from the police. That is the bottom line.

He demonstrated no hostile intent at all. From all accounts he did not pull a cell phone, say 'I have a gun', or any of the myriad other possible threatening actions.

That is wrong no matter which way you slice it.

The end result was wrong.

But I don't know that we have heard from witnesses from the beginning to the end of the event so I'm not sure we could yet conclude that "he demonstrated no hostile intent at all". Someone can be hostile without having a weapon and can have a hostile intent without being a terrorist.

For all we know at this point, the guy could have been stalking someone about to jump them hoping to mug them. Probably not but I'll give British policemen the benefit of the doubt until the investigation results come in.

quote:
Originally posted by Lady Starkiller:
In a perfect world, I'd agree with you, but this world isn't perfect, and I'm a ruthless bitch.

And who are we to depend on to help make it a more perfect world, we "the good guys" or them "the bad guys"?

If neither side is going to make an effort to create a better world, I think we're in trouble.
[Smile]

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Lady Starkiller
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quote:
The end result was wrong.

But I don't know that we have heard from witnesses from the beginning to the end of the event so I'm not sure we could yet conclude that "he demonstrated no hostile intent at all". Someone can be hostile without having a weapon and can have a hostile intent without being a terrorist.

Maybe this is just me talking - but if this person did, in fact, do something to cause any reasonable police officer to assume hostile intent, I'm not going to say the end was wrong. Sad and regrettable, but not wrong.

Doing the right thing for the right reasons and getting a bad result does not, to me, mean the end result is wrong.

But that's just my weird morality talking... [Big Grin]

quote:
And who are we to depend on to help make it a more perfect world, we "the good guys" or them "the bad guys"?

If neither side is going to make an effort to create a better world, I think we're in trouble.

True, but I'd ask a different set of questions:

What kind of people do we need to help make it a more perfect world: idealistic ones or ruthless ones? Ones who will work towards the dream they want, or ones that will work with the reality we have?

Answer: we need both...

[ July 24, 2005, 04:29 PM: Message edited by: Lady Starkiller ]

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Archer
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quote:
Originally posted by Lady Starkiller:
True, but I'd ask a different set of questions:

What kind of people do we need to help make it a more perfect world: idealistic ones or ruthless ones? Ones who will work towards the dream they want, or ones that will work with the reality we have?

Answer: we need both...

So does that mean you'll consider join me in asymmetric warfare against communist China?
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Lady Starkiller
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quote:
So does that mean you'll consider join me in asymmetric warfare against communist China?
[Confused]
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tshaw
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This whole thing sounds like a case of terminal stupidity on the Brazilian's part.

If you wear a big puffy coat that looks like it can be used to cover a suicide belt on a hot, muggy day then fail to respond exactly as the police order you to, you will be shot until they are sure you can't set off the possible bomb.

If they had failed to shoot him until he was unable to set off a bomb, and he really was a suicide bomber, you who are now bemoaning police brutality would probably be wondering why the incompetent police failed to keep him from detonating his bomb.

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Lady Starkiller
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Thank you, tshaw, that's exactly my point, though you wrote it far more succinctly than I.
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philnotfil
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You left out the part where they had been following him because he went to the subway from a building they had under surveillance because it was suspected that the terrorists had been using it.

It is sad, but I wouldn't call it a mistake on the part of the police. I don't think they would have shot him, even if he ran, as long as he wasn't headed towards the subway.

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FiredrakeRAGE
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tshaw -

Yes. It would bite if a suicide bomber was able to kill a bunch of people due to the police having to follow certain rules.

This is the price we pay for living in a free nation.

quote:
I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.

--Thomas Jefferson

--Firedrake
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Mormegil
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I am more scared of the people justifying this incident than the terrorists.

I know several people who wear coats in hot weather.

He ran from police, but they were PLAINCLOTHES police.

He was shot after he was already being held down on the ground!

This was just plain wrong. The terrorists caused people to be terrified, and in their fear they murdered an innocent man. The terrorists must be laughing themselves hoarse.

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Jesse
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Has anyone found yet if this guys spoke a word of english?

If you were in a foreign country and several men starting yelling and pointing guns at you, men who wearing plain clothes, would you run?

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FiredrakeRAGE
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Ignorance is not an excuse, Jesse.

--Firedrake

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potemkyn
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"He was shot after he was already being held down on the ground!"

This isthe most disturbing part. Five times in the head after he's on the ground? Disgusting; if the officer isn't thrown up on charges, he should at least be dismissed.

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canadian
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I wouldn't want to be the innocent guy who gets shot, but if you all think it's a fantastic idea, enjoy!


I know, I know...you'd be smarter.

Tell it to the five bullets screwing up the software.

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FiredrakeRAGE
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Potemkyn said:
quote:
This isthe most disturbing part. Five times in the head after he's on the ground? Disgusting; if the officer isn't thrown up on charges, he should at least be dismissed.
Hardly. If the officer thought he was a suicide bomber, then the suspect fell within the policy. The policy stated that killing the suspect was alright.

--Firedrake

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David Ricardo
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Look, the British police made a catastrophic mistake. But at least, they owned up to it.

You have to understand that those police officers had the recent images of the horrific London bombings still in their heads. In the heat of the moment, one of them decided that he didn't want to take the chance of seeing more of those horrific images because he failed to do his duty. Then, he started firing at the innocent civilian, and then other officers started firing as well.

Again, they made a gruesome mistake. Nevertheless, they themselves are the ones who are the most keenly aware of their mistake. And they are also the ones who immediately owned up to their mistake and are now pledging not to make the same mistake in the future.

If you still have an axe to grind agsinst them, then go ahead and grind that axe. I will reserve my axe-granding for those who do not own up to their mistakes and do not take steps to correct their mistakes. I tend to give the benefit of the doubt to those who admit their mistakes openly and pledge earnestly to fix those mistakes in the future.

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Hannibal
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Look, the British police made a catastrophic mistake. But at least, they owned up to it.


its easy to own up to the mistake, because every body knows that they have made it

and are now pledging not to make the same mistake in the future.

an empty promise they killed an innocent man, and they will make mistakes again, dont make them the tragic heroes or players in this story because they ****ed up greatly

i just cant stop thinking what whould have happned if we israelis made such mistake

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vulture
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There seem to be a number of factors contributing to this guy's death. Firstly, he lived in a block of flats. One of the flats in this block was already under surveillance by the anti-terrorist police (and was raided on Saturday with one arrest - all unconnected to this shooting). Secondly, being Brazilian, he was used to rather warmer weather than you get in the UK. So in the middle of summer, when most Brits are wearing shorts and T-shirts when it gets above 15 degrees or so, he was wearing a large jacket (apparently).

So combine the idea of a guy wearing a large jacket on a hot day, leaving a block of flats comntaining terrorist suspects, going to the tube, and running when challenged by police.

I can understand the actions of the police, even if I don't condone them.

And Hannibal - what on earth makes you think that the Israeli security forces haven't killed innocent people under similar circumstances? I'm fairly sure I remember a few such cases over the years.

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Hannibal
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i remmember a couple too, and i also remmember the media and political linch that they got afterwards, but the english case it looks like people sympathize with the police

"its a hard work"
"they felt that they had to prove themselves in a hurry"
"he wore a jacket"
etc

the sad truth about this, is that it seems the english police has no idea who/what they are looking for, and they dont have even a profile of a typical suicide bomber to begin their search with, and they are in a complete panic because of this.

maybe they should come here and train a little

even in my backwater country we still dont kill people for wearing jackets

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Badvok
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Turns out he was in the country illegally - his visa had expired - so that makes it alright then!

Not really, but that seems to be the impression being put out by the press. At least it explains why he ran.

Edit: I'd also like to add that witnesses I heard on the TV did say that there were no challenges/warnings issued within their hearing. I hope the inquiry sorts it out and the officer is put up on a murder charge.

[ July 25, 2005, 08:07 AM: Message edited by: Badvok ]

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Badvok
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quote:
Originally posted by Hannibal:
even in my backwater country we still dont kill people for wearing jackets

LOL, no your military just kills people based on rumour and suspicion, or if they're standing too close to someone who is rumoured to be a terrorist. But let's not get into that one again.

[ July 25, 2005, 08:05 AM: Message edited by: Badvok ]

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Archer
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quote:
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050725/ap_on_re_eu/britain_bombings

Menezes was followed by plainclothes officers after he left an apartment bloc in Tulse Hill that was under surveillance. Wearing a padded jacket, he boarded a bus and traveled to the nearby Stockwell subway station. According to officials, his clothing and behavior aroused the suspicions of the police who ordered him to stop.

Witnesses said Menezes ran into a subway car, where officers shot him. It was unclear why Menezes, who spoke English, did not stop.

Commissioner Blair expressed deep regret for Menezes' killing, which he described as a "tragedy," but defended his officers' right to use deadly force against suspected suicide bombers.

That explains at least why the policeman shot him. They thought he had a suicide bomb vest on and he ran into the subway car when challenged as if he was making one last desperate attempt for another bombing.

If it had been a suicide bomber, he'd have been trying to detonate the bomb when the police got to him. The police didn't know how the device was going to be triggered and the guy was obviously not lying there quietly and still. The policeman who shot him thought killing him was the only way to prevent the bomb from detonating.

Crappy luck on the Brazilian's part.

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Badvok
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quote:
Originally posted by Archer:
Crappy luck on the Brazilian's part.

What an epitaph! Hope we can say the same for you one day.

[ July 25, 2005, 08:15 AM: Message edited by: Badvok ]

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javelin
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quote:
Originally posted by Badvok:
quote:
Originally posted by Archer:
Crappy luck on the Brazilian's part.

What an epitaph! Hope we can say the same for you one day.
Who's being the jerk here?
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Hannibal
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Badvok i was looking for you, maybe after all it is the english police who should go to israel and learn who/what to do eh?

LOL, no your military just kills people based on rumour and suspicion, or if they're standing too close to someone who is rumoured to be a terrorist. But let's not get into that one again.

i guess that if i said that the millitary does not, and that the millitary acts after the Shin-Bet or the Mossad have checked things wont weigh anything. let off your steam on my Badvok, deep down i know that you'd wish your military and police were as efficient at those things as my country's

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Archer
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quote:
Originally posted by Badvok:
quote:
Originally posted by Archer:
Crappy luck on the Brazilian's part.

What an epitaph! Hope we can say the same for you one day.
I'm the very embodiment of crappy luck. I'd proudly have that on my tombstone if my family wouldn't pitch a fit.

Its crappy luck.

He could have chosen some place else to live.

He could have chosen to not wear a bulkly jacket that day.

He could have chosen to take the jacket off for a minute and the police could have seen there was no bomb underneath

He could have chosen to make several stops before going to the subway and the police would lose interest in him.

He could have chosen to not take the subway.

He could have chosen to not run from the police.

He could have chosen to run any place but onto the subway car which was the final act that made the policemen think he was a suicide bomber.

If everything by chance had not fallen exactly as it did, he'd be alive today. That's crappy luck.

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Badvok
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quote:
Originally posted by Archer:
If everything by chance had not fallen exactly as it did, he'd be alive today. That's crappy luck.

If the police had been trained sufficiently, if the police weren't so trigger happy, if the police were held individually accountable for any loss of life they directly caused, he'd still be alive.
It's not crappy luck, its murder, luck doesn't come in to it. Unless you consider every rape/murder victim just to be unlucky rather than looking at the ills of society that caused the situation. Maybe we shouldn't persue murderers/rapists, after all, its just crappy luck that their victims were in the wrong place at the wrong time.

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TomDavidson
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Look, Badvok, at the end of the day, we had someone under surveillance wearing a heavy coat disobeying police orders and running onto a subway car. Are you arguing that the police should not prevent someone from boarding in that situation?
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Badvok
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quote:
Originally posted by Hannibal:
Badvok i was looking for you, maybe after all it is the english police who should go to israel and learn who/what to do eh?

Yes, I think you have a good point there. I am very disappointed in the level of ability demonstrated by our police in this incident. Maybe they would do well to experience a situation like in Israel. Both the Israeli army and the UK police could learn something from each other.
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Badvok
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
Look, Badvok, at the end of the day, we had someone under surveillance wearing a heavy coat disobeying police orders and running onto a subway car. Are you arguing that the police should not prevent someone from boarding in that situation?

Depends on what you mean by prevent! Arrest him? Detain him? Sure. It would all be sorted out fairly quickly. Chase him, wrestle him to the ground, restrain him and then unload half a magazine of ammo into his brain? NO!

A couple of other points:
1. He was not himself under surveillance, otherwise they would have known who he was.
2. He probably did not speak English as his first language.
3. So far no witness has mentioned anything about hearing the police issue any orders, other than "Get Down". Which when shouted by someone in civilian clothes is not very useful to anyone.

[ July 25, 2005, 11:45 AM: Message edited by: Badvok ]

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