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» The Ornery American Forum » General Comments » Jihad over Danish Cartoons v.2 (Page 1)

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Author Topic: Jihad over Danish Cartoons v.2
Ben
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After all the hubbub over the cartoons of Muhammed and the Arab response (seems they're still pissed even now), I thought I'd look around for a better look at these cartoons (Interestingly, about half the cartoons in question seem to me quite neutral in their presentation of Mohammed, not negative against Islam or the man, and a few others were more in the vein of situational humor.) and see if there were any other images and found a website showing historical examples and even examples from one of the Middle East countries making such a fuss.

Mohammed Image Archives
Of course given the response, the archives now include the infamous cartoons and subsequent images produced as a result. (Warning: some of the more current images in response are offensive though they are displayed below, and have a warning message before you reach this point)

So this is really nothing new, the difference being that media brought out these images quickly and correspondingly the response as well.

In my search, I also found that there seems to be a lot of effort being put into trying to censor, fire, or otherwise shut down people supporting the cartoons or speaking out against Islam, largely under the guise of such people and opinions being bigoted. Aside from the obvious cases where Arab countries were on the Danish gov't's case about the 12 Mohammed cartoons, one example here in America....

LA Radio vs CAIR

...where someone making a joke, about LA traffic and the Mecca pilgrimage needing traffic helicopters too given the crowds, was assailed by the CAIR as bigoted. Intrigued (used to live in LA), I followed up and found that CAIR was involved in getting other people fired for speaking out against Islam, etc. Also despite a statement that said CAIR wasn't sponsored by terrorist organizations, I have found enough online to raise questions, so I'm wondering if you orneryites can kick in some more info on this apparent jihad against people who don't fall in line with supporting Islam. This is fairly important to me since freedom of speech is a key freedom in America and I dislike seeing such knocks against it here or elsewhere.

As a personal aside, I find it ridiculous that such nations say that religion should be respected when it comes to Islam being portrayed by such political cartoons, but in their own countries in media controlled by the government, Christianity and Judaism in general are negatively portrayed as bloody and warlike.

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Eric
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What's fanned the flames recently were a French and a German publication re-printing the offending cartoons this week. The editor of the French publication (France Soir) was fired over it, and the paper quickly issued a groveling apology.

Islam is a political/military movement disguised as a religion. They don't like scrutiny.

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Everard
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"Islam is a political/military movement disguised as a religion."

THats an interesting statement...

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Eric
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And one intended to provoke discussion. [Wink]
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Everard
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I'm not going to bite [Smile] I'll just continue looking at you oddly.
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The Drake
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Your employer isn't abridging your freedom of speech if he fires you for something you said on the job using his broadcast equipment.

Making a joke about people getting crushed in the Hajj is like kidding around about people getting drowned while stuck in traffic in New Orleans. It's pretty offensive, and I can see why there was a problem.

Note from the article:

quote:
Handel said he would apologize to the group but imposed three conditions: The group must condemn all acts of terror; agree that Israel is a sovereign nation and has a right to defend its borders; and that CAIR has no ties to terror organizations or individuals.
Interesting response, and it is quite inconsistent with the radio personality's claim that they were just making fun of the pilgrims like anybody else.

Publicly asking for an apology or complaining that something is offensive is also free speech.

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Eric
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quote:
Publicly asking for an apology or complaining that something is offensive is also free speech.
Agreed. However, threatening murder and kidnappings is not.
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kelcimer
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http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/02/02/news/islam.php

quote:
Late Wednesday morning about a dozen gunmen from two armed groups appeared at the EU headquarters in Gaza, firing off automatic weapons and spray-painting a warning on the outside gate: "Closed until an apology is sent to Muslims." The men handed out a pamphlet warning Denmark, Norway and France that they had 48 hours to apologize.
 
The office, staffed only by Palestinians at the time, reportedly received a telephone warning that the gunmen were coming and was quickly closed.
 
Later, two armed masked men from one of the groups held a press conference on a sidewalk in Gaza warning of consequences if the nations did not apologize.
 
"It will be a suitable reaction, and it won't be predictable," said one of the men, Abu Hafss, identified as a commander of the Al Quds Brigade, an armed offshoot of the radical group Islamic Jihad. The other group is the Al Yasser Brigades, connected to the Fatah party, which was badly beaten in last week's elections.
 
Another armed group connected to Fatah, the Abu el-Reesh Brigades, said that Norway, Denmark, France and Germany must apologize within 10 hours or their citizens in Gaza would be "in danger."
 
Both Abu Hafss and Shanty, the legislator, said their groups did not endorse harming any foreigners in Gaza. All the same, the threat emptied Gazan hotels of Europeans, most of them foreign journalists. The manager of the popular Al Diera Hotel said 12 of his 22 rooms had been cleared out by late afternoon.

I don't suppose this will lead to a less pro-Palestinian Europe, huh?
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The Drake
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"Iranian woman artist Oranous created this iconic painting of a young Mohammed and is selling it online, even though she is a devout Muslim and lives in Tehran. "

Now that takes balls.

Rights of EU citizens and EU civil unrest is not my problem, I was only speaking to the LA story. The masked Fatah crazy people in the IHT story are very bad men and I hope they are thrown on a pyre in the village square. (they still do that in Europe, right?)

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Harmony
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Islam is, in most of european countries, the #2 religion after catholicism.
France is a democracy, thus, everyone is free to to speak, think, write what he wants unless he abuses the right. Therefore, I think that firing a journalist because of what he wrote is wrong.
Another french journalist said in a newspaper : "les fanatiques qui, au nom d'Allah, assassinent des innocents, ne sont-ils pas la pire caricature des paroles de Mahomet?" Aren't the fanatics who murder in the name of allah the worse caricature of Muhamet's words (or speach...)?
Harmony

P.S don't you find that the drawing of allah made by Oranous looks like a woman ? [Confused]

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Hannibal
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thats right Harmony!

i hope your country, and the rest of the EU will be powerfull enough not to give in to this stupidity.

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vulture
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That was my first reaction too. Which makes Islam look worse and shows less respect to the Prophet: a satirical cartoon, or blowing up children in a disco?

Take your pick...

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TomDavidson
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quote:
France is a democracy, thus, everyone is free to to speak, think, write what he wants unless he abuses the right. Therefore, I think that firing a journalist because of what he wrote is wrong.
I'm not sure I understand why free speech necessarily means that people can say or do what they want without getting fired.
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The Drake
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Especially when doing so "on company time".
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Eric
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Focusing on the guy who got fired for saying offensive things "on company time" draws attention away from the more important question of whether Islam is fundamentally compatible with the western idea of a free society.

I suspect it's not.

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Serotonin'sGone
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quote:
I'm not sure I understand why free speech necessarily means that people can say or do what they want without getting fired.
Yeah -- but what do you bet that that paper had record sales for that edition, so the firing is a bit of bs (but not necessarily a bad idea. This way you get great sales and a dramatic countermeasure afterwards. very pragmatic -- just sucks for the editor, but I bet he won't have too much trouble finding a new job).

[ February 03, 2006, 10:39 AM: Message edited by: Serotonin'sGone ]

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Harmony
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In france, when an employer fires someone he must have evidence of a fault (at least a "real and serious fault, then you have a gradation to severe fault and then heavy fault).
The sanction has to be proportional to the fault. I don't really think that the man who was fired (if I remember it well, he was the director of edition) wanted to harm his company. I mean he chose to publish the pictures in good faith (if you allow me to use this word in such a case) because he probably thought that one can laught at anything : politics, religion, morality... So, from my point of view no good reason to fire someone.
I'm not sure I'm clear... [Confused]
At least, I've tried to explain... Cultural difference ??

Harmony

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javelin
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I suppose his fault could be a disregard for the interests and requirements of his boss?
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The Drake
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I forgot that France is one enormous Union Shop.

(I hope that translates)

In the US, except for certain exceptions and companies that employ organized labour, employment is "at-will", or until either party decides they don't want to continue the employee relationship.

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Harmony
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The Drake,

It's our labor code who says what I wrote. A real nightmare for american managers ! [Big Grin]

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TomDavidson
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quote:
I mean he chose to publish the pictures in good faith (if you allow me to use this word in such a case) because he probably thought that one can laught at anything : politics, religion, morality...
So he was attempting to make a political argument, thus asserting that one can laugh at anything, no matter how offensive. His boss disagreed and fired him for it.

I actually don't see a single thing wrong with that. And if the guy thought making his statement was important enough to risk his job, neither should he.

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Eric
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Everyone's wringing their hands over labor laws and one fired editor while ignoring the real story:

Indonesia
London
Norway

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Hannibal
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So the Muslims make a little fuss and all the world trembles?

have you recently took a glance look at the way judaism is being portraited on leading arab newspapers?

as a response to these "demonstrations" air planes should spread flyers with those caricatures above arab countries just to spite them a little more

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Eric
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Exactly, Hannibal. The outrage from the Muslim street is hypocritical to the extreme.
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TomDavidson
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So, wait, you get to decide what the "real" story is?
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javelin
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Of course he does, Tom - everyone gets their own opinion, and if his opinion is that something else is the real story, then all power to him. It's always nice if the "real story" is at least related to the current thread, but hell, most people ignore me on that one anyway / [Smile]
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The Drake
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Why should this trouble anyone, as long as they stick to signs and banners and aren't setting fire to the country of France?

I imagine that if a paper published a cartoon showing Jesus brandishing a meat cleaver and chopping people's heads off, you'd probably have a lot of Christians throwing fruit and yelling.

The Indonesians seem to be a little confused about whether the Danish embassy has anything to do with what a Danish newspaper publishes, but given the censorship in Arab nations it is understandable that they think the government should crack down on the press in that fashion.

I did find some of the cartoons funny myself.

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Harmony
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I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend, to the death, your right to say it.

Voltaire

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javelin
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quote:
Originally posted by Harmony:
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend, to the death, your right to say it.

Voltaire

And I'll answer that with the same hypothetical I answered Everard:

Really? So, if someone were to say, I don't know, hand over a list of agents working secretly in the Al Queada (sp?) network to OBL, that's all well and good in a free society?

So, you'd defend someone's right to say something that would endanger you and the ones you love, to your own death, if need be? I wouldn't. I support free speech to almost an unlimited degree. I will also tell people what I think of what they said, and I don't pretend my support is unlimited. I do not allow people to endanger those I love, given the ability to stop them.

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Harmony
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Javelin
Of course there are limit to the freedom of speech (i.e not encourage discrimination based on gender, ethnics, religion, incitation to violence... ).
But come on, you probably know what caricature means, don't you ? Tell me where is the danger ?
Don't you laugh as some caricature of political people ? Why wouldn't it be possible to laugh at religion characters (I'm not sure it's a correct word in this case ?).
A caricature is an excess of course. But would you prefer censorship to this form of humour ?
Harmony

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javelin
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I don't believe that the cartoons should be censored, Harmony. That wasn't my point. You went VERY general with your quote, so I responded to it - there are limits. The limits haven't been met in this cartoon thing, but there are limits (and honestly, mine are probably WAY further out then yours, especially if that list is representative).
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Eric
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Sure, free speech is great...even when it's stuff like this:

quote:
We will not accept less than severing the heads of those responsible
and this:

quote:
We will not be satisfied with protests. The solution is the slaughter of those who harmed Islam and the Prophet
From this article.

Unfortunately, this isn't just empty ranting. When their religious leaders speak, their rants are too often taken as marching orders.

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The Drake
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I'd be very upset if the French or Danish governments censored the cartoons, but that hasn't happened.
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Pelegius
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Eric, you cannot hope to define 1.3 billion people living all over the world in a few sentences.
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Eric
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Are people not defined by their actions?
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Dagonee
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quote:
Of course there are limit to the freedom of speech (i.e not encourage discrimination based on gender, ethnics, religion, incitation to violence... ).
Your list, except for incitation to violence, is pretty scary list of acceptable censorship.
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Hannibal
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Again with the naivete

you cant define 1.3 billion muslims, but some how its muslims who get tied down to all massive terror attacks in the world.

If i were a Frenchman or a Dane, i whould watch out, because today at their Al-Aqsa mosque, palestinian Hamasnics started burning french and danish flags. your time is a coming folks.

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Pelegius
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Wrong Hannibal, so obviously wrong as to be laughable.

Wikipedia lists three Christian terrorist groups (two in India, one in Sudan), three Hindu ones, two defunct Jewish ones, 8 Sikh ones and one Shinto one. There are countless nationalist terrorist groups of all religions, including the FARC and the ETA. Before 9-11, the largest terrorist attack in the U.S. was the Oklahoma City Bombing but Timothy McVeigh was not a Muslim.
The largest ever pre 9/11 attack was the Air India bombing carried out by Sikh extreamists.


Eric, as individuals, not as groups.

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Hannibal
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does wickipedia list those groups in the manner of sizes? how many muslim terrorists are there? against the number of christian terrorists etc etc etc

do you neglect the fact that more then 1000 israelis died the last 5 years because of muslim terrorists? in nomerous "small" terror attacks.
and how many died in the 10 years before that?

what about the attacks in Bali? and in the train station at Madrid

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Eric
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quote:
Eric, as individuals, not as groups.
The flaw with that argument is that when these acts are committed, they're committed on behalf of the group, not as individuals.

I understand the point you're trying to make, but Mohammed Atta didn't fly an airplane into the WTC because he, as an individual, hated Americans. He did it on behalf of an entire group that hates Americans.

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