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Author Topic: Wedding-Dress Wearing Hitchhiker Murdered in Turkey
munga
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No matter what you think about Muslims in Turkey, the real question to my mind is....

what did this woman IMAGINE she was suggesting by wearing a wedding dress?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7344381.stm

Sad, tragic, but could it have ended any other way, eventually?

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Jesse
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Woman hitching alone gets murdered.

Hasn't got a thing to do with Muslims or Turkey. Her odds would not have been great here.

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munga
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There are so many things about this are not right. For instance, who hitch-hikes and advertizes "Young Woman alone as an ART PROJECT traveling through countries, DO AS YOU WILL"

That's why I said, it was going to end badly anywhere. So, who is responsible? Is it her college professors? Her family? How do you get to be 33 and still not understand that there is evil in the world?

And last of all.... what message WAS she expecting to send, with the subliminal suggestions of a wedding dress? What do YOU think of, presented with a girl alone in a wedding dress? Isn't there an argument to be made that there are nuances in her "art" that suggested exactly this outcome?

[ April 16, 2008, 06:07 PM: Message edited by: munga ]

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scifibum
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Well, I don't think of murder. But she was obviously (20/20 hindsight) stupid.
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Storm Saxon
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""Her travels were for an artistic performance and to give a message of peace and of trust, but not everyone deserves trust," another sister, Maria, told the Italian news agency, Ansa."

...

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munga
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quote:
Originally posted by scifibum:
Well, I don't think of murder. But she was obviously (20/20 hindsight) stupid.

Not murder.... consumation... or in other words, Rape. Murder is a rape cover-up.
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KnightEnder
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White wedding dress connotes virginal innocence.

Whatever she was trying to prove she proved that, in this world, the world we've created, innocence is the victim of evil.

In this world; we can't afford to be innocent.

KE

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munga
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I think it is too much of an invitation. "Let me be your bride!" No, wait, I don't want to KISS you, I just want to you to think about it, but, not do anything, but let me drive in your car and help me out, not that I'm going to pay you back in any way...

oh gosh it is sooo soooo sad.

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Storm Saxon
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Er, are you actually suggesting that she was asking to be raped wearing a bridal gown?
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munga
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I am suggesting that she suggested "use" of herself, with it. Subliminally, only.

[ April 16, 2008, 11:49 PM: Message edited by: munga ]

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jasonr
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I know I've said in the past that people "deserve" the foreseeable consequences of their actions, but this case is just sad. This woman may have been a fluff-head, but she didn't deserve what happened to her. In a way, this story is more disturbing, because it suggests some kind of opportunistic murder. In other words, she wasn't the random target of a serial killer; she was targetted by, presumably, a regular person who just saw her dress as an excuse to murder her. It's even more chilling when you think of it that way.
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munga
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Well, consider that she was advertizing, too. She had her pic in the paper and told people where she was going, dressed like that, too.

She gets a special Darwin for being too dumb to live, but she was not evil, just... very very deluded.

May she and her family have peace.

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Jesse
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I have no idea what inspired the pair to split up.

That's not to say, of course, that they were by an means "safe" together, but they were "safer".

I don't think the wedding dress drastically increased risk. Woman hitching alone is a big enough danger factor almost anywhere.

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munga
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It suggested "I'm not only alone, I'm extraordinarily nuts, do with that information what you will"

They split because they were convinced that their lenses of mankind were true, regardless of the other immediate appearances.

Bless her, it is so sad. And the question is, we all say "she didn't deserve this" but did she actively avoid information for 15 or so adult years that would have refuted this Artistic Tour as a viable plan?

[ April 17, 2008, 01:17 PM: Message edited by: munga ]

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Storm Saxon
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People believe what they want to believe. She's not special.
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kenmeer livermaile
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Look, you don't have to wear a wedding dress to be murdered while hitch-hiking.

"She had said she wanted to show that she could put her trust in the kindness of local people."

"People" is a broad term that does not equate with 'everyone'. There's at least one in every crowd. She find it.

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KnightEnder
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quote:
Originally posted by Storm Saxon:
People believe what they want to believe. She's not special.

She and Anne Frank believed in the basic 'goodness' of people. And they both paid the ultimate price. The difference was she had a choice. But, at least she put her money where her mouth was. [Frown]

KE

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Storm Saxon
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True.

I guess the question is, what if she had done what she had set out to do and come back safely? Would that cause anyone to reevaluate the dangerousness of the world?

I think this in some way this might go back to not only the kind of people we want to be, but the kind of world we want to live in. By treating the world with suspicion and distrust, do we contribute to the world being a bad place at least in our own minds, but perhaps in some way through our behavior in reality?

Even if it's in our own minds, was she a happier person in her life because of how she viewed people than those who are more suspicious?

I am a fairly suspicious and paranoid person, and I would never do what she did, but I'm not sure that what she was doing wasn't worth doing for some reasons.

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kenmeer livermaile
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I'm sure she had a good time for the most part until she was murdered.
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RickyB
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Asking to be raped? No. Insisting on ignoring the way others may think? Hell yeah. It was an exceedingly stupid thing to do.
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Rallan
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quote:
Originally posted by munga:
There are so many things about this are not right. For instance, who hitch-hikes and advertizes "Young Woman alone as an ART PROJECT traveling through countries, DO AS YOU WILL"

That's why I said, it was going to end badly anywhere. So, who is responsible? Is it her college professors? Her family? How do you get to be 33 and still not understand that there is evil in the world?

And last of all.... what message WAS she expecting to send, with the subliminal suggestions of a wedding dress? What do YOU think of, presented with a girl alone in a wedding dress? Isn't there an argument to be made that there are nuances in her "art" that suggested exactly this outcome?

So what's it like to be on the cutting edge of modern thinking about rape, circa 1930?
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munga
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Rallan,

If she had written you just prior to her trip and said

I am thinking of a wonderful Idea. Our world needs to learn to trust other nations and countries more and I want to demonstrate that by hitchhiking across the ME in a wedding dress. What do you think?

How would you have responded?

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munga
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quote:
Originally posted by Storm Saxon:
True.

I guess the question is, what if she had done what she had set out to do and come back safely? Would that cause anyone to reevaluate the dangerousness of the world?

I think this in some way this might go back to not only the kind of people we want to be, but the kind of world we want to live in. By treating the world with suspicion and distrust, do we contribute to the world being a bad place at least in our own minds, but perhaps in some way through our behavior in reality?

Even if it's in our own minds, was she a happier person in her life because of how she viewed people than those who are more suspicious?

I am a fairly suspicious and paranoid person, and I would never do what she did, but I'm not sure that what she was doing wasn't worth doing for some reasons.

Saxon, I agree with everything you said. I'm even the kind of person to go out there and do those things. But I would have carried a concealed weapon and worn clothing that was not suggestive of a wedding night. A clown costume might have been far better, I think. Heck, I also would have taken some kind of kung fu til I could kill with my toes.

[ April 18, 2008, 11:33 AM: Message edited by: munga ]

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TomDavidson
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quote:
But I would have carried a concealed weapon and worn clothing that was not suggestive of a wedding night.
The concealed weapon, at the very least, would seem to defeat the entire point of the exercise.
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munga
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Not really. The question would be, "did you ever have to draw your weapon"? and if the answer was no, then, clearly the point plays just as nicely and is far less likely to end in death.
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Rallan
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quote:
Originally posted by munga:
Rallan,

If she had written you just prior to her trip and said

I am thinking of a wonderful Idea. Our world needs to learn to trust other nations and countries more and I want to demonstrate that by hitchhiking across the ME in a wedding dress. What do you think?

How would you have responded?

I'd have said "That ain't exactly the safest idea I've ever heard". But plenty of people have come up with more blatantly dangerous holiday plans than that and come out more or less unscathed.

Plus it happened in Turkey. If you had to compile a "places where western tourists stand a good chance of getting killed" list, Turkey wouldn't be in the running. It's reasonably stable, secular, and modernish, and I'd be far more worried about where the heck she'd plan on going after Turkey.

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TheSteelenGeneral
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what munga says comes down to the "she had it coming"-POV which is in some ways even sadder than the event itself.
Also, lets step back and remember that:
1. its not proven that she was raped and murdered coz of the wedding dress
2. It's a very short article. I've found often, that when you hear more about these types of stories, the motivations of the people involved are not so bizarre as they first seem.

There's an interesting contradiction in this case for extreme-rightists:
In this case, apperantly they think the woman died because of unnecessary risk taking.
But, they apply no such logic when it comes to putting guns in society and making them easily available to mental patients, like the Virginia tech guy, and other trigger happy folks, like the last 5 schoolshooters/mallshooters this year ...

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TheSteelenGeneral
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightEnder:
quote:
Originally posted by Storm Saxon:
People believe what they want to believe. She's not special.

She and Anne Frank believed in the basic 'goodness' of people. And they both paid the ultimate price. The difference was she had a choice. But, at least she put her money where her mouth was. [Frown]

KE

As a non-Jewish and leftist person, I find that comparison highly insulting. Also quite illogical and thus unneccessary, since Anne Frank did everything to avoid risk.
Furthermore, believing in the basic goodness of people when in Anne Franks situation, is a perfectly normal survival strategy. It might seem illogical at first glance, but it's make perfect sense upon closer examination. Not unlike Stockholm syndrome.

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scifibum
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quote:
There's an interesting contradiction in this case for extreme-rightists:
In this case, apperantly they think the woman died because of unnecessary risk taking.
But, they apply no such logic when it comes to putting guns in society and making them easily available to mental patients, like the Virginia tech guy, and other trigger happy folks, like the last 5 schoolshooters/mallshooters this year ...

That's a pretty forced comparison.

First, the risk to any given individual of "guns in society" is minimal. The risk to a woman hitchhiking alone is not minimal.

Second, more importantly, you'd not find many right wingers concerned that we should prevent women from going on trips alone.

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KnightEnder
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Just goes to show that no matter what you write 'someone' can find it offensive if they try hard enough.

I didn't compare their actions. (And I wasn't blaming either of them. As you seem to be doing.) I was saying that they both seemed to share the basic belief that people are basically good deep down inside. A belief that in both their cases seems to be questionable since they were both killed by the people they believed to be good. A valid corollary. But since you missed the point of the statement I can see why you would think it was illogical and unnecessary. You, of course, are wrong. (A common occurrence here, so don't feel too bad.)

How 'you' can be feel insulted by my statement is beyond me. But if it makes you feel better, go right ahead. [Roll Eyes]

KE, a non-Jewish left leaning person. [Smile]

[ April 18, 2008, 03:28 PM: Message edited by: KnightEnder ]

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KnightEnder
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And your assertion that Anne Frank believed that the Nazis were 'good' deep down inside because she was suffering from Stockholm syndrome, and as a survival strategy, is, unlike anything I said, truly insulting. She thought that people are basically good because she was young and a good person at heart herself. The latter is another trait I think she shared with the unfortunate art student. (I should thank you; you've made me think of the subject on more levels than I originally did in my short post, and shown me that my instincts were right at an even deeper level than I at first realized. Thank you.)

I think you not only missed the point of my statement, but of the story "The Diary of Anne Frank" all together. [Frown]

KE

[ April 18, 2008, 03:37 PM: Message edited by: KnightEnder ]

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kenmeer livermaile
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Whoa. This discussion has taken indefinite moral scales and matters of faith and turned them into Gunfight at the OK Corral.

Maybe I should sell hot dogs and drinks?

Believing people are food inside is 'good for the soul'.

It is not necessarily a good principle by which to survive traveling the globe in a very vulnerable state.

Finally, like ol' Clint said in that movie: "We all got it comin', kid."

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KnightEnder
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Well, people are all 'food' inside. [Wink]

The Outlaw Josey Wales?

But seriously, I wasn't looking for a fight. I truly didn't think anybody would take offense at what I wrote. You can usually tell when I'm intentionally being insulting. Subtlety is not my strong suite. [Smile]

KE

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munga
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well...

My only point was that somehow this girl had gotten such training in her life ( and Rallan--- she was only starting in Turkey and heading toward and through the middle-east, where mysogyny is still rampant...) that an idea of the wedding dress and the advertising AND the alone-ness allowed her to think "ART PROJECT!".. but it was really a subtle provocation of the evil element in humanity and I wonder what forces contributed to a person believing that there IS that much good in the world????

Humans are GOOD/BAD in all ratios. But none are without the bad! This plan would have been bad anywhere at all--- does she live in a world where there are no rape and murder statistics? She didn't even have to travel to or near the middle-east to arrive at a RATIO that would have prevented the plan, if she had believed the nightly news and blotters at all.

Who contributed to her upraising and education such that she did not have any ability to accept data?

But that said, I have a sister with schizophrenia, sweet as can be. Maybe what they are not saying, is that she escaped from home and couldn't be caught in time, and they want to honor her memory by not besmirching her name by mentioning her disease.

In any case, God rest her soul.

[ April 18, 2008, 03:55 PM: Message edited by: munga ]

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kenmeer livermaile
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My best friend is paraschizo. And most of us aren't as 'right' in the head as we like to think, whatever 'right' in the head might be.

"You can usually tell when I'm intentionally being insulting. Subtlety is not my strong suite."

Oh YEAH?!? Well, **** you too! [Wink]

[ April 18, 2008, 04:58 PM: Message edited by: kenmeer livermaile ]

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hobsen
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If anyone is still interested in this story, I suggest they read the available information. "Brides on Tour" has a Web site which presumably explains the project; it is in Italian except for the title, but there are plenty of mechanical translators. The section titled "Programma" has a map.

http://bridesontour.fotoup.it/

What happened I suspect is that the women travelled from Milan to Istanbul which - as they were going to Tel Aviv - represented perhaps 60% of their planned trip. There one of them had to leave for a time, but the other decided to continue alone rather than abandon the project. In retrospect, this proved a bad decision; but as Rallan remarks, murdering hitchhikers is strongly condemned in Turkey. She no doubt felt she had completed the most dangerous part of the trip, and could continue to Ankara, Damascus, Beirut, Amman and Tel Aviv in reasonable safety. Her companion also planned to rejoin her in Beirut, so she would have company after that. I am not surprised she thought she could cross Turkey to Ankara, and then continue the less than 450 miles to Beirut, without encountering a murderer.

In fact, if she had been trying to get murdered, she might have had to hitchhike thousands of more miles before achieving her goal. Certainly she took a chance and lost, but she could have been murdered back in Milan without getting any headlines. The trip was certainly risky; but it was not in the category of jumping off the Golden Gate Bridge - a normally fatal act which some determined suicides have done more than once. As compared to a conventional tour, her chance of getting killed was greatly increased; but a fatal outcome from her planned route still seems to me unlikely. She had bad luck, or she would have arrived in Tel Aviv without incident. And I rather expect the treatment of her murderer will serve as a horrible example to anyone tempted to commit a similar crime in Turkey; I doubt the authorities will accept the plea that she brought her fate on herself.

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jasonr
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quote:
In fact, if she had been trying to get murdered, she might have had to hitchhike thousands of more miles before achieving her goal. Certainly she took a chance and lost, but she could have been murdered back in Milan without getting any headlines. The trip was certainly risky; but it was not in the category of jumping off the Golden Gate Bridge - a normally fatal act which some determined suicides have done more than once. As compared to a conventional tour, her chance of getting killed was greatly increased; but a fatal outcome from her planned route still seems to me unlikely. She had bad luck, or she would have arrived in Tel Aviv without incident. And I rather expect the treatment of her murderer will serve as a horrible example to anyone tempted to commit a similar crime in Turkey; I doubt the authorities will accept the plea that she brought her fate on herself.
That about sums up my thinking. While she was certainly courting a great deal of risk in doing what she did, I'm not sure this tour was on par with, say, going over Niagara Falls in a barrel. In other words, plenty of people have done much riskier things.

There was probably a 99% chance that she would have made it safely. She was unlucky. Say what you will, I don't think indiscriminate murder of a young woman, no matter how outlandishly dressed, is something common, or to be expected. She got really unlucky and met a real bad dude.

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Jesse
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In general? No, it's not be expected. When Hitching alone through remote areas?

It's not very shocking, at all.

It's something on the order of sitting on a church steeple dressed in tin foil during a thunderstorm. Odds are, you still won't get hit by lightning, but no one will be suprised if you are.

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munga
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Jesse:

quote:
It's something on the order of sitting on a church steeple dressed in tin foil during a thunderstorm. Odds are, you still won't get hit by lightning, but no one will be suprised if you are.
You put my thought into much more palitable terms. Thank you.
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jasonr
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quote:
It's something on the order of sitting on a church steeple dressed in tin foil during a thunderstorm. Odds are, you still won't get hit by lightning, but no one will be suprised if you are.
Right right, agreed.
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