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Author Topic: Wedding-Dress Wearing Hitchhiker Murdered in Turkey
Rallan
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quote:
Originally posted by munga:
There are so many things about this are not right. For instance, who hitch-hikes and advertizes "Young Woman alone as an ART PROJECT traveling through countries, DO AS YOU WILL"

That's why I said, it was going to end badly anywhere. So, who is responsible? Is it her college professors? Her family? How do you get to be 33 and still not understand that there is evil in the world?

And last of all.... what message WAS she expecting to send, with the subliminal suggestions of a wedding dress? What do YOU think of, presented with a girl alone in a wedding dress? Isn't there an argument to be made that there are nuances in her "art" that suggested exactly this outcome?

So what's it like to be on the cutting edge of modern thinking about rape, circa 1930?
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munga
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Rallan,

If she had written you just prior to her trip and said

I am thinking of a wonderful Idea. Our world needs to learn to trust other nations and countries more and I want to demonstrate that by hitchhiking across the ME in a wedding dress. What do you think?

How would you have responded?

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munga
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quote:
Originally posted by Storm Saxon:
True.

I guess the question is, what if she had done what she had set out to do and come back safely? Would that cause anyone to reevaluate the dangerousness of the world?

I think this in some way this might go back to not only the kind of people we want to be, but the kind of world we want to live in. By treating the world with suspicion and distrust, do we contribute to the world being a bad place at least in our own minds, but perhaps in some way through our behavior in reality?

Even if it's in our own minds, was she a happier person in her life because of how she viewed people than those who are more suspicious?

I am a fairly suspicious and paranoid person, and I would never do what she did, but I'm not sure that what she was doing wasn't worth doing for some reasons.

Saxon, I agree with everything you said. I'm even the kind of person to go out there and do those things. But I would have carried a concealed weapon and worn clothing that was not suggestive of a wedding night. A clown costume might have been far better, I think. Heck, I also would have taken some kind of kung fu til I could kill with my toes.

[ April 18, 2008, 11:33 AM: Message edited by: munga ]

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TomDavidson
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quote:
But I would have carried a concealed weapon and worn clothing that was not suggestive of a wedding night.
The concealed weapon, at the very least, would seem to defeat the entire point of the exercise.
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munga
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Not really. The question would be, "did you ever have to draw your weapon"? and if the answer was no, then, clearly the point plays just as nicely and is far less likely to end in death.
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Rallan
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quote:
Originally posted by munga:
Rallan,

If she had written you just prior to her trip and said

I am thinking of a wonderful Idea. Our world needs to learn to trust other nations and countries more and I want to demonstrate that by hitchhiking across the ME in a wedding dress. What do you think?

How would you have responded?

I'd have said "That ain't exactly the safest idea I've ever heard". But plenty of people have come up with more blatantly dangerous holiday plans than that and come out more or less unscathed.

Plus it happened in Turkey. If you had to compile a "places where western tourists stand a good chance of getting killed" list, Turkey wouldn't be in the running. It's reasonably stable, secular, and modernish, and I'd be far more worried about where the heck she'd plan on going after Turkey.

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TheSteelenGeneral
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what munga says comes down to the "she had it coming"-POV which is in some ways even sadder than the event itself.
Also, lets step back and remember that:
1. its not proven that she was raped and murdered coz of the wedding dress
2. It's a very short article. I've found often, that when you hear more about these types of stories, the motivations of the people involved are not so bizarre as they first seem.

There's an interesting contradiction in this case for extreme-rightists:
In this case, apperantly they think the woman died because of unnecessary risk taking.
But, they apply no such logic when it comes to putting guns in society and making them easily available to mental patients, like the Virginia tech guy, and other trigger happy folks, like the last 5 schoolshooters/mallshooters this year ...

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TheSteelenGeneral
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightEnder:
quote:
Originally posted by Storm Saxon:
People believe what they want to believe. She's not special.

She and Anne Frank believed in the basic 'goodness' of people. And they both paid the ultimate price. The difference was she had a choice. But, at least she put her money where her mouth was. [Frown]

KE

As a non-Jewish and leftist person, I find that comparison highly insulting. Also quite illogical and thus unneccessary, since Anne Frank did everything to avoid risk.
Furthermore, believing in the basic goodness of people when in Anne Franks situation, is a perfectly normal survival strategy. It might seem illogical at first glance, but it's make perfect sense upon closer examination. Not unlike Stockholm syndrome.

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scifibum
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quote:
There's an interesting contradiction in this case for extreme-rightists:
In this case, apperantly they think the woman died because of unnecessary risk taking.
But, they apply no such logic when it comes to putting guns in society and making them easily available to mental patients, like the Virginia tech guy, and other trigger happy folks, like the last 5 schoolshooters/mallshooters this year ...

That's a pretty forced comparison.

First, the risk to any given individual of "guns in society" is minimal. The risk to a woman hitchhiking alone is not minimal.

Second, more importantly, you'd not find many right wingers concerned that we should prevent women from going on trips alone.

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KnightEnder
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Just goes to show that no matter what you write 'someone' can find it offensive if they try hard enough.

I didn't compare their actions. (And I wasn't blaming either of them. As you seem to be doing.) I was saying that they both seemed to share the basic belief that people are basically good deep down inside. A belief that in both their cases seems to be questionable since they were both killed by the people they believed to be good. A valid corollary. But since you missed the point of the statement I can see why you would think it was illogical and unnecessary. You, of course, are wrong. (A common occurrence here, so don't feel too bad.)

How 'you' can be feel insulted by my statement is beyond me. But if it makes you feel better, go right ahead. [Roll Eyes]

KE, a non-Jewish left leaning person. [Smile]

[ April 18, 2008, 03:28 PM: Message edited by: KnightEnder ]

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KnightEnder
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And your assertion that Anne Frank believed that the Nazis were 'good' deep down inside because she was suffering from Stockholm syndrome, and as a survival strategy, is, unlike anything I said, truly insulting. She thought that people are basically good because she was young and a good person at heart herself. The latter is another trait I think she shared with the unfortunate art student. (I should thank you; you've made me think of the subject on more levels than I originally did in my short post, and shown me that my instincts were right at an even deeper level than I at first realized. Thank you.)

I think you not only missed the point of my statement, but of the story "The Diary of Anne Frank" all together. [Frown]

KE

[ April 18, 2008, 03:37 PM: Message edited by: KnightEnder ]

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kenmeer livermaile
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Whoa. This discussion has taken indefinite moral scales and matters of faith and turned them into Gunfight at the OK Corral.

Maybe I should sell hot dogs and drinks?

Believing people are food inside is 'good for the soul'.

It is not necessarily a good principle by which to survive traveling the globe in a very vulnerable state.

Finally, like ol' Clint said in that movie: "We all got it comin', kid."

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KnightEnder
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Well, people are all 'food' inside. [Wink]

The Outlaw Josey Wales?

But seriously, I wasn't looking for a fight. I truly didn't think anybody would take offense at what I wrote. You can usually tell when I'm intentionally being insulting. Subtlety is not my strong suite. [Smile]

KE

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munga
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well...

My only point was that somehow this girl had gotten such training in her life ( and Rallan--- she was only starting in Turkey and heading toward and through the middle-east, where mysogyny is still rampant...) that an idea of the wedding dress and the advertising AND the alone-ness allowed her to think "ART PROJECT!".. but it was really a subtle provocation of the evil element in humanity and I wonder what forces contributed to a person believing that there IS that much good in the world????

Humans are GOOD/BAD in all ratios. But none are without the bad! This plan would have been bad anywhere at all--- does she live in a world where there are no rape and murder statistics? She didn't even have to travel to or near the middle-east to arrive at a RATIO that would have prevented the plan, if she had believed the nightly news and blotters at all.

Who contributed to her upraising and education such that she did not have any ability to accept data?

But that said, I have a sister with schizophrenia, sweet as can be. Maybe what they are not saying, is that she escaped from home and couldn't be caught in time, and they want to honor her memory by not besmirching her name by mentioning her disease.

In any case, God rest her soul.

[ April 18, 2008, 03:55 PM: Message edited by: munga ]

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kenmeer livermaile
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My best friend is paraschizo. And most of us aren't as 'right' in the head as we like to think, whatever 'right' in the head might be.

"You can usually tell when I'm intentionally being insulting. Subtlety is not my strong suite."

Oh YEAH?!? Well, **** you too! [Wink]

[ April 18, 2008, 04:58 PM: Message edited by: kenmeer livermaile ]

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hobsen
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If anyone is still interested in this story, I suggest they read the available information. "Brides on Tour" has a Web site which presumably explains the project; it is in Italian except for the title, but there are plenty of mechanical translators. The section titled "Programma" has a map.

http://bridesontour.fotoup.it/

What happened I suspect is that the women travelled from Milan to Istanbul which - as they were going to Tel Aviv - represented perhaps 60% of their planned trip. There one of them had to leave for a time, but the other decided to continue alone rather than abandon the project. In retrospect, this proved a bad decision; but as Rallan remarks, murdering hitchhikers is strongly condemned in Turkey. She no doubt felt she had completed the most dangerous part of the trip, and could continue to Ankara, Damascus, Beirut, Amman and Tel Aviv in reasonable safety. Her companion also planned to rejoin her in Beirut, so she would have company after that. I am not surprised she thought she could cross Turkey to Ankara, and then continue the less than 450 miles to Beirut, without encountering a murderer.

In fact, if she had been trying to get murdered, she might have had to hitchhike thousands of more miles before achieving her goal. Certainly she took a chance and lost, but she could have been murdered back in Milan without getting any headlines. The trip was certainly risky; but it was not in the category of jumping off the Golden Gate Bridge - a normally fatal act which some determined suicides have done more than once. As compared to a conventional tour, her chance of getting killed was greatly increased; but a fatal outcome from her planned route still seems to me unlikely. She had bad luck, or she would have arrived in Tel Aviv without incident. And I rather expect the treatment of her murderer will serve as a horrible example to anyone tempted to commit a similar crime in Turkey; I doubt the authorities will accept the plea that she brought her fate on herself.

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jasonr
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quote:
In fact, if she had been trying to get murdered, she might have had to hitchhike thousands of more miles before achieving her goal. Certainly she took a chance and lost, but she could have been murdered back in Milan without getting any headlines. The trip was certainly risky; but it was not in the category of jumping off the Golden Gate Bridge - a normally fatal act which some determined suicides have done more than once. As compared to a conventional tour, her chance of getting killed was greatly increased; but a fatal outcome from her planned route still seems to me unlikely. She had bad luck, or she would have arrived in Tel Aviv without incident. And I rather expect the treatment of her murderer will serve as a horrible example to anyone tempted to commit a similar crime in Turkey; I doubt the authorities will accept the plea that she brought her fate on herself.
That about sums up my thinking. While she was certainly courting a great deal of risk in doing what she did, I'm not sure this tour was on par with, say, going over Niagara Falls in a barrel. In other words, plenty of people have done much riskier things.

There was probably a 99% chance that she would have made it safely. She was unlucky. Say what you will, I don't think indiscriminate murder of a young woman, no matter how outlandishly dressed, is something common, or to be expected. She got really unlucky and met a real bad dude.

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Jesse
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In general? No, it's not be expected. When Hitching alone through remote areas?

It's not very shocking, at all.

It's something on the order of sitting on a church steeple dressed in tin foil during a thunderstorm. Odds are, you still won't get hit by lightning, but no one will be suprised if you are.

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munga
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Jesse:

quote:
It's something on the order of sitting on a church steeple dressed in tin foil during a thunderstorm. Odds are, you still won't get hit by lightning, but no one will be suprised if you are.
You put my thought into much more palitable terms. Thank you.
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jasonr
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quote:
It's something on the order of sitting on a church steeple dressed in tin foil during a thunderstorm. Odds are, you still won't get hit by lightning, but no one will be suprised if you are.
Right right, agreed.
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Rallan
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quote:
Originally posted by Jesse:
In general? No, it's not be expected. When Hitching alone through remote areas?

It's not very shocking, at all.

It's something on the order of sitting on a church steeple dressed in tin foil during a thunderstorm. Odds are, you still won't get hit by lightning, but no one will be suprised if you are.

Well except that it's not. As other people have pointed out, hitchhiking alone through a stable and law-abiding country (as long as you steer clear of the kurdish bits, which she did) might not be the safest thing in the world, but it's not exactly a ridiculously dangerous idea either. She wasn't exactly traipsing through a warzone, wandering down back-alley slums in the middle of the night, or heading across a lawless bandit-infested wilderness.
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Straygaldwyr
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Any women who had travled even on public transit in Islamic countries would have told her she would be raped at the very least, hell muslims in Europe have their own mothers defending them from rape charges because the western women are immodest. Clearly it is a shame that this womans reality check was fatal, however I do not think she would have doomed to death here by any stretch.

She probably was a fan of Smoky and the Bandit...

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Jesse
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Rallan, hitch-hikers used to turn up in ditches all the time in the US. It was the main reason it became illegal.

Would you encourage a woman to hitch-hike in the US?

If not, why not?

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Straygaldwyr
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In rural Iowa I would not be afraid for my daughter to hitch, and I have personally helped dozens of people who were broke down and/or afoot without raping and/or killing a single one...

[ April 22, 2008, 07:40 PM: Message edited by: Straygaldwyr ]

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kenmeer livermaile
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Aw, that's sweet about Iowa. Iowa ain't got no bad people who see how a woman alone away from home on a highway makes the perfect opportunity.

Nossir. No bad people in Iowa. 'cxept mebbe them ragheads in Rapid City...

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Straygaldwyr
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People hitched all the time in the seventies when statistically you were in much greater danger, this is one of many times when common perception fails to reflect reality, another case of faulty risk assessment.

I would say the average hitcher is more dangerous then the average driver anyway. Not to put too fine a point on it but you are a victim already without hitching.

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Straygaldwyr
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As for criticizing my assessment of Arab treatment of Western women found traveling alone, I suggest you read some of the travel warnings about it, or the accounts of some of the news women who thought they were dealing with civilized men.
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kenmeer livermaile
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"I would say the average hitcher is more dangerous then the average driver anyway. Not to put too fine a point on it but you are a victim already without hitching."

I would say you are wrong. I stopped hoboing in '83 after nine years of chronic road life.

I don't criticize your assessment of a woman traveling alone in Turkey. I criticize your assessment of a woman traveling alone in Iowa or Indiana or Washington of Florida or New Hampshire.

Especially a woman in a wedding dress.

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OpsanusTau
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quote:

Would you encourage a woman to hitch-hike in the US?

It kind of depends. In small towns & on islands where I know people I feel safe hitching.

But in general, not.
Most people are nice, but then there is that small but nonzero percentage of the population who, when presented with the Opportunity of a woman alone on the side of the road, turns that woman into a body in a [freezer, swamp, compost pile, concrete floor - insert favored disposal method here].

I also never pick up a hitcher when I'm alone. [Frown] I wish it weren't unsafe to be a woman, but that's the way it is.

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Jesse
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I only pick up female hitch hikers under most circumstances, although I will stop to help dudes with broken down cars and offer a ride if no cell service is available.

Well, I used too. Now that I've come to terms with my misogyny, I guess I'm going to have to start leaving them for whatever freak comes along.

If I'm going to be a misogynist, I really ought to be more consistent about it.

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OceanRunner
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I consider myself a feminist and I'm just fine with that misogyny, Jesse...

I've never hitchhiked, though, and I never would - not in Turkey and not in Iowa. Every male stranger is, in my mind, potentially a perfectly nice guy and potentially a rapist, you never know which way things could go.

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kenmeer livermaile
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Picking up a hitcher is fairly safe... unless they're suicidal along with vicious. Just floor the car and get going real fast, look at them, and smile real big.

After awhile they'll figure it out.

Tell 'em to throw the gun/knife/whatever out the window and you won't put a telephone pole in your engine block.

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hobsen
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A study in California some years ago involved police checking hitchhikers along the freeways. This found over half had been convicted of crimes of violence or were wanted by the law. And some women have posed as hitchhikers so that male accomplices could carry out carjackings or robberies. A few women hitchhikers have even robbed or murdered drivers themselves.

In any case, hitchhiking stories are a bit academic, because this murdered woman was not hitchhiking. She met her murderer in a gas station, so she no doubt thought nobody could be stupid enough to attack her after the two had been seen together. He was stupid enough to do that, and also to then continue to use her cell phone, which is how the police tracked him down. Quite possibly he had murdered before, or would have murdered someone else had she not become his victim. Such people do not have a legal defense of insanity, but they are not really rational, and it is only a matter of time until they get in serious trouble with the law.

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Jesse
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Yup, but a guy getting murdered picking up a female hitch hiker is a lot more like getting hit by lightning lying in bed.

If you can't see a dude rush out of the bushes, you aren't paying much attention.

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Straygaldwyr
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Put some numbers to those assessments before you make sweeping judgments and claims.
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kenmeer livermaile
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Here's some commentary and data.
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kenmeer livermaile
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Stray, you are the king of unsubstantiated sweeping claims. Like a broom without a handle.
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Straygaldwyr
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So the conclusion (of the numbers) was that hitching in America is less dangerous then riding a bike, and we have thousands of people annually who cross America on bicicles, I would say your concern about the young lady being able to get across America being just as hazerdous as the Middle East are pretty well abolished by your own post, despite my reluctance to teach you, wisdom persist in its flow from higher to lower concentration...
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kenmeer livermaile
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"I would say your concern about the young lady being able to get across America being just as hazerdous as the Middle East are pretty well abolished by your own post,"

But Stray, that's not what I said.

Please, when addressing arguments to me, argue with me, not yourself.

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Straygaldwyr
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I stand corrected, I should have said "the concern" rather then your...I was aware of the statistics but I was not really paying attention to who was on the wrong side of the issue, your link was helpful for clarification.
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