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Author Topic: How Obama got elected.
Pinochio
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A funny video which demonstrates how influential the mainstream media is at promoting candidates.

http://howobamagotelected.com/

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Gaoics79
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Was a parallel survey done with respect to McCain / Palin voters?
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MattP
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Nope. Here's a great interview with the guy who ran the survey:

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/11/interview-with-john-ziegler-on-zogby.html

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Gaoics79
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Wow, that transcript is pretty appalling.
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DonaldD
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Oh look - it's Michael Moore's evil twin, Skippy!

Besides, didn't Obama only win because McCain ran the worst campaign since, well, John Kerry..?

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Pinochio
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quote:
Originally posted by jasonr:
Was a parallel survey done with respect to McCain / Palin voters?

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1108/15829.html

quote:
Pollster John Zogby has rejected a conservative commentator’s offer to sponsor a poll to test the knowledge of people who voted for John McCain.

The commentator was proposing to mirror a poll of Obama voters that caused a political uproar when it suggested that Obama supporters didn’t know what they were voting for.

Its apparent that Zogby is being pressured not to allow the public to see the results of exactly what you just asked. [Big Grin] [Big Grin] I wonder why? [Wink]

[ November 20, 2008, 10:31 PM: Message edited by: Pinochio ]

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Pinochio
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quote:
Originally posted by jasonr:
Wow, that transcript is pretty appalling.

That is absolutely hilarious. It demonstrates just how uninformed Nate Silver actually is and then Silver actually goes ahead and posts it. too funny.

[ November 20, 2008, 10:40 PM: Message edited by: Pinochio ]

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Greg Davidson
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It's interesting, I did not come away with the perception that Nat Silver was uninformed. There is clearly a difference in perceptions between the two individuals in the transcript. I think that the key quote was

quote:

JZ: The first campaign as told by the person whose position he took in the State Senate, as told by her admission, his first campaign event was in the home of Bill Ayers and his wife. [Laughs] Unless you live in the Obama kool-aid world! That is astonishing to me that you would not accept that!

JZ is "astonished" that someone does not believe in his world view. I had a similar sense of your comment, Pinochio, when you asserted how uninformed Silver was. It is possible to disagree not because you are uninformed, but because you find information not to be credible. The real kool-aid world is when you expect everyone to believe what you believe without having to resort to proof or logical argumentation.

I read the transcript as if Silver was asking a lot of basic questions because he wanted Zogby on the record.

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Haggis
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Keep telling yourself that the biggest margin in twenty years was because of the mass media. It's amazing how much better those liberal propagandists got since 2004.

Or is it that talk radio has lost that much influence?

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TommySama
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Its that damn liberal media using all of the (limited) footage they were allowed to get of Palin in interviews exposing her ignorance.
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Pinochio
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quote:
Originally posted by Greg Davidson:
[/QB]

thats all nuances Greg. This entire conversation started because Silver accused Zogby of conducting a push poll. A 'push-poll' has a very specific definition which anyone in the industry (Silver's website is dedicated to polling) should know. It's empirically clear that this was not a push poll as Ziegler explained.

The rest of the interview is fluff. Actually, I take that back, It shows Silver's 'world-view' (as you stated) because Silver keeps pounding out these stupid questions about how Zigler 'feels' about Obama's religion.

NS: Would you not believe Barack Obama if he told you he was a Christian?

NS: Do you think he’s a believer in Jesus Christ?

What kind of stupid questions are these? Unlike the questions Zieglar asked, you would have to be an idiot to even try to answer such (push-poll) type questions.

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Pinochio
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quote:

Or is it that talk radio has lost that much influence? [/QB]

Keep telling yourself whatever you are telling yourself. My candidate didn't win because I DIDN'T HAVE ONE RUNNING!. The liberals had two candidates to choose from , conservatives had none. If you think the election was won for any other reason than you are living with your head in the sand.

The media simply continues to do it's job at keeping the masses uninformed - as this poll clearly demonstrates.

If you dont know what party is running our government how the heck can you possibly be informed about ANYTHING?

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Pinochio
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quote:
Originally posted by TommySama:
Its that damn liberal media using all of the (limited) footage they were allowed to get of Palin in interviews exposing her ignorance.

Yeah, You mean the 2.5 hours of interview conducted by Katie Couric where she nit picked 20 minutes of edited soundbytes that make Palin look foolish? You are right, the media did never let us see the rest of the interview. Geez, you are as informed as the people being polled here. Good job.

Palin's mistake was to even attempt to give an interview to people whose entire purpose is to character assassinate her. She should have done exactly what Obama and Biden did and stick to softball interviews with reporters who are 'in the bag' for her campaign. Thats why republicans can never win. Until they start campaigning like democrats and follow their rules they have no shot. You cant win elections by taking the high road.

[ November 21, 2008, 09:19 AM: Message edited by: Pinochio ]

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TomDavidson
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quote:
Thats why republicans can never win.
Yeah, that's right. Republicans don't win anything. Haven't won an election in decades. Makes you wonder whether they're even a viable party anymore, really.

*laugh*

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RickyB
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"My candidate didn't win because I DIDN'T HAVE ONE RUNNING!"

The way you talk, you ain't had one in a general for a major party in.... at least 44 years.

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Gaoics79
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quote:
That is absolutely hilarious. It demonstrates just how uninformed Nate Silver actually is and then Silver actually goes ahead and posts it. too funny.
It's actually pretty funny that you come to that conclusion. Silver's questions couldn't have been more pedestrian and straightforward. While the questions were certainly designed to elicit information not supportive of the interviewee's views, there was nothing overtly adversarial or hostile about them. Pretty straightforward factual questions, actually, entirely relevent to the issues.

What I thought was appalling was how rude and hysterical Ziegler got at times. It was positively juvenile. Some highlights:

quote:
NS: Why would you commission a survey question with no correct response?
JZ: The purpose of the question, you pinhead, was we wanted to determine the Tina Fey Effect.

quote:
NS: What did Zogby charge you -- what did you pay for this survey?
JZ: I'm not going to tell you that, I'm not a ****ing idiot.

quote:
NS: Thank you, have a good day.
JZ: Go **** yourself.


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Greg Davidson
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Pinochio, the issues you identify have been faced by every candidate who has run for major political office. the only unique thing about Gov. Palin's treatment is that she interacted less with the press than any other candidate (every other VP nominee in the last 30 years gave a press conference to a broad section of the media in 1-3 days after being nominated; with Palin it was weeks).
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flydye45
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I recall that NRO had a comment from one voter. He was a single issue pro-life voter, and from what he heard in the news, he didn't know which was the pro-life candidate.

Considering the coverage this issue got in the debates, I'm not surprised by his ignorance. Like most other issues which could have had a negative impact on Obama, most just got little coverage.

But the guy obviously wasn't working hard to find out as well.

(Opens tank) Hey, look! The media. Get on out of there guys, the elections over...

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flydye45
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quote:
Originally posted by DonaldD:
Oh look - it's Michael Moore's evil twin, Skippy!

Besides, didn't Obama only win because McCain ran the worst campaign since, well, John Kerry..?

I'm sorry, how are "ran a bad campaign" and "media biased against" mutually exclusive? Republicans have to run very good campaigns to get over media bias. McCain didn't.
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Everard
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Funny how the media bias was in favor of mccain compared to obama until mccain started acting like a loon while obama remained steady. Maybe media bias has to do with reality bias?
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flydye45
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quote:
Originally posted by Greg Davidson:
Pinochio, the issues you identify have been faced by every candidate who has run for major political office. the only unique thing about Gov. Palin's treatment is that she interacted less with the press than any other candidate (every other VP nominee in the last 30 years gave a press conference to a broad section of the media in 1-3 days after being nominated; with Palin it was weeks).

So you are saying that half a dozen shows specifically created to distort and smear Bush and Republicans in general hasn't had a whit of impact? Tina Fey will never buy dinner again in recompense for her work to destroy Palin.

Obamas gaffes and idiocies were lightly covered...and rationalized. McCains were highlighted in every news and Daily Show cycle.

Say what you will of talk radio, it doesn't have the coverage of the Big Three (who will need their own bailout bill soon)

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flydye45
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quote:
Originally posted by Everard:
Funny how the media bias was in favor of mccain compared to obama until mccain started acting like a loon while obama remained steady. Maybe media bias has to do with reality bias?

The "Pro McCain" bias lasted until he won the nomination. The Obama bias started in the primary because there are some things even reporters will not stomach.

McCain has always been a useful tool to beat the Bushes. When that stopped, so did the glowing coverage.

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scifibum
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fly, are you arguing that SNL should have refrained from some of the most hilarious and easy comedy I've seen on that show for years, out of a sense of fairness? Palin just dangles as much material in front of their faces as humanly possible and they're not supposed to use it?
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flydye45
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The Daily Show and the Colbert Report were specifically crafted to destroy Bush's credibility, frequently unfairly. Can you picture "Back to da South Side" as a program about Obama the way they created "Lil Bush"?

How about a movie about Obama being assassinated?

Suddenly the humor just dries up, doesn't it? "That's not right, fly!" Hmm.

Jon Stewart tried ONE Obama joke. Not a chuckle. Expect that to be the rule.

What jokes did SNL use at Obama's expense again? "Pompous windbag" might be it. Where were the jokes about him getting up to the podium, and saying "My muslim brothers..." to the Ladies Organization of Baptists, because an aide screwed up with what religion he was supposed to be this speech.

Or Obama, speaking at a fundraiser for a bunch of broken down 60's radicals.

How about jokes about how Obama is saving a trillion dollars on Iraq, and he can spend a trillion dollars on social security...and a trillion dollars on healthcare...and a trillion dollars on union jobs, when his aides finally are able to rip him from the podium midspeech to avoid him spending it more then 4 or 5 times.

Or how about the joke of Obama not answering any questions from the press, ending each comment with "Hope."

Lots of grist. Funny none of it found it's way to the mill.

[ November 21, 2008, 11:52 AM: Message edited by: flydye45 ]

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by Pinochio:
NS: Would you not believe Barack Obama if he told you he was a Christian?

NS: Do you think he’s a believer in Jesus Christ?

What kind of stupid questions are these? Unlike the questions Zieglar asked, you would have to be an idiot to even try to answer such (push-poll) type questions.

They're questions that specifically address misinformation about Obama that has been spread.

Looking at Ziegler's question, for 4 the actual answer was "None of the above" (Though Zigler only accepted it for one), For one both "Obama" and "McCain" were correct answers (and even "Palin" if you take policy effected as equivalent to speaking in support of something) and one was worded poorly, given the timing such that either answer could be correct. (If someone asks you about the "past" election on election day, while the polls are open, do you associate it with the current one, or the one before the current one?)

So right off the bat, half of his questions are at best designed to be confusing, if not actively push out misinformation.

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Wayward Son
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"Not a chuckle" is probably more indicative of the reason for the lack of Obama jokes than any reason of media bias.

Furthermore, within six months after his inauguration, Obama jokes will be the staple of the late-night talk shows, and Obama's administration will be the staple of the Daily Show and the Colbert Report. The Amazing Criswell predicts! [Smile]

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Haggis
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quote:
The Daily Show and the Colbert Report were specifically crafted to destroy Bush's credibility, frequently unfairly.
Waaaaaaah! It's not fair that conservatives are not funny. Waaaaaaah!
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TomDavidson
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I've still got a standing offer of $10 for the first conservative on this forum who can come up with a genuinely funny (and original) Obama joke. So far, no one's managed to win it.
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flydye45
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quote:
Originally posted by Haggis:
quote:
The Daily Show and the Colbert Report were specifically crafted to destroy Bush's credibility, frequently unfairly.
Waaaaaaah! It's not fair that conservatives are not funny. Waaaaaaah!
No, it's just you don't like our subject matter.
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Adam Masterman
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quote:
The Daily Show and the Colbert Report were specifically crafted to destroy Bush's credibility, frequently unfairly.
*Tinfoil hat alert.*

How about "The Daily Show and the Colbert Report were specifically crafted to get ratings by making fun of an easy target, the party in power?"

Adam

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Haggis
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quote:
No, it's just you don't like our subject matter.
Apparently nobody else did either. See Fox's "1/2 Hour Comedy Hour", which initially drew over a million viewers, then subsequently lost 80% of them because they forgot to bring the funny.

I'll grant that liberals suck at talk radio. Conservatives suck at bringing the funny.

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Gaoics79
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quote:
The Daily Show and the Colbert Report were specifically crafted to destroy Bush's credibility, frequently unfairly. Can you picture "Back to da South Side" as a program about Obama the way they created "Lil Bush"?

How about a movie about Obama being assassinated?

Suddenly the humor just dries up, doesn't it? "That's not right, fly!" Hmm.

Jon Stewart tried ONE Obama joke. Not a chuckle. Expect that to be the rule.

What jokes did SNL use at Obama's expense again? "Pompous windbag" might be it. Where were the jokes about him getting up to the podium, and saying "My muslim brothers..." to the Ladies Organization of Baptists, because an aide screwed up with what religion he was supposed to be this speech.

Or Obama, speaking at a fundraiser for a bunch of broken down 60's radicals.

How about jokes about how Obama is saving a trillion dollars on Iraq, and he can spend a trillion dollars on social security...and a trillion dollars on healthcare...and a trillion dollars on union jobs, when his aides finally are able to rip him from the podium midspeech to avoid him spending it more then 4 or 5 times.

Or how about the joke of Obama not answering any questions from the press, ending each comment with "Hope."

Lots of grist. Funny none of it found it's way to the mill.

Obama is quite simply a more subtle individual than Palin or Bush, and so he calls for a more subtle form of comedy.

I actually thought the actor who played him on SNL did a great job. The physical appearance wasn't quite as natural as Tina Fey / Palin, but in some ways the performance was just as inspired. I just loved the way he seemed to have his nose up in the air at all times, and every question was answered as if it was the most important issue in the world, and Obama was handing down the word of God, lol.

But I've always said that Bush, quite literally, made John Stewart's career. Heck, the Bush years were a renaissance for the late night comedy industry. Palin would have continued that golden age.

Sadly, Obama just isn't someone who is easy to make fun of, and not just because he's black and people want to be PC. The guy is just not the type that is easy to lampoon. He rarely makes any comedic gaffes, and his demeanour is rather bland.

By the way, anyone who watched CNN would have heard of Bill Ayers and the "spread the wealth" comment by Obama. These were discussed ad nauseum , so while the interviewees in the video may not have known about them or attributed them to Obama, it's pretty laughable to suggest that this was because the mainstream media didn't mention them due to pro-Obama bias.

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TomDavidson
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Given that the underlying poll was clearly a push poll, it's worth noting that no statistician on Earth will consider the results of a push poll valid for a number of reasons.
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Rallan
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quote:
Originally posted by Wayward Son:
"Not a chuckle" is probably more indicative of the reason for the lack of Obama jokes than any reason of media bias.

Furthermore, within six months after his inauguration, Obama jokes will be the staple of the late-night talk shows, and Obama's administration will be the staple of the Daily Show and the Colbert Report. The Amazing Criswell predicts! [Smile]

Yeah that's pretty much a given. Opposition parties have to go above and beyond the call of duty to end up in a comedian's sights, because it's hard for politicians to make outrageous and bizarre decisions when they're no longer part of the decision-making process.

Although it'll be interesting to see how the Colbert Report handles the transition, since Colbert's set himself up as a parody of conservative commentary. I imagine it might be a bit difficult to make fun of the new Democrat establishment while still satirizing talkback radio hosts.

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Rallan
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quote:
Originally posted by flydye45:
quote:
Originally posted by Haggis:
quote:
The Daily Show and the Colbert Report were specifically crafted to destroy Bush's credibility, frequently unfairly.
Waaaaaaah! It's not fair that conservatives are not funny. Waaaaaaah!
No, it's just you don't like our subject matter.
No, Haggis is right. I'm sure we all remember the horror that was "The Half Hour News Hour" [Smile]
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Pete at Home
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Bush #41 wasn't all that funny, and yet I remember how Arsenio Hall focused on him, and also how AH vowed to be as hard on Clinton as he was on Bush ... and afterwards how AH fell into obscurity. He couldn't do a Clinton Schtick. And yet would anyone seriously argue that Clinton was less interesting than Bush #41?
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Pete at Home
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"Sadly, Obama just isn't someone who is easy to make fun of, and not just because he's black and people want to be PC. The guy is just not the type that is easy to lampoon. He rarely makes any comedic gaffes, and his demeanour is rather bland."

Especially since he surrounds himself with persons that are so much more interesting and absorb all the negative attention. If Mrs Obama had been married to Bill Clinton no one would ever have noticed her.

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Pete at Home
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Flye's argument wanes on the comedy end, but he's got you all on the McCain point.
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Pinochio
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
Given that the underlying poll was clearly a push poll, it's worth noting that no statistician on Earth will consider the results of a push poll valid for a number of reasons.

Clearly you, along with Silver, have never read the definition of a 'push-poll',,, and again, if it is so certain to demonstrate people's stupidity with these questions, why do you think it is that Zogby is being pressured and has refused to allow the same poll of Republicans? Did you even read the website? JZ admits that thousands of liberals said the same exact thing you just did and he replied with specifics and reasoning as to why you have no clue what you are talking about.
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Pinochio
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quote:

So right off the bat, half of his questions are at best designed to be confusing, if not actively push out misinformation. [/QB]

If you are confused by these basic questions that YOU ARE AN IDIOT, and the poll did its job... Only a lawyer or someone in total denial could come to the conlcusion you had just drawn.

Are you actually saying that you would have gotten the questions wrong because of the semantics of the wording? [Roll Eyes] :rolleyes:a [Roll Eyes]

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