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Author Topic: "True" ghost stories, unexplained happenings and supernatural occurances...
scouser1
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OK, so i'm lying here in the dark reading ghost stories online totally freaking myself out (which I like to do. I know, i've told you all i'm not normal!).
And again, i'm drawn to my favourite local paranormal investigator Tom Slemen.

Tom Slemen is world renowned for the weird, scary and downright creepy. And I like it [Big Grin]
I am a firm believer in all of this. I have seen 1 ghost in my lifetime as a child and since then I believe that anything is possible.
Whether you choose to believe or not is down to personal preference, but if a ghost appeared to you and you were still skeptical, how would you logically explain it away?

My dad is the most skeptical person on the planet for most things, but even he has experienced firsthand as a child what cannot be explained.
My father's story started long ago.
In 1953 when my dad was 9 years old, for a short period of time he lived with his auntie above a cobbler's shop. It was a very small house with just basic rooms. The main living room had just the one main windowed door as an exit that lead down a long flight of stairs that subsequently led onto the street at the side of the cobblers.
One day during the summer, my dad and his auntie were in the living room when they heard heavy footsteps coming up the stairs. My dad looked out of the little window; no-one there. His auntie dismissed it has them hearing things. Til the heavy footsteps started again. This time my dad flung the door open, again to no-one. He looked down the stairs to discover at the bottom a coffin with a glowing light around it laid on a tresle. Again he heard the heavy footsteps coming up the stairs towards him and shut the door in fright, telling his auntie what he saw.
At first she didnt believe him, but he insisted he had seen what he believed was an apparition of a coffin. Eventually my auntie believed him and she called the local priest to come to the house.

The priest, along with a policeman (don't quite know why on that part, but just never asked my dad why) came into the house. The priest explained that he was going to exorcise the house and that they all should be ready in case strange happenings go on. Boy, they were so not ready.
As the priest began, the glowing coal fire in the room began to burn more fiercely than before, as if it was moving in time to the priest's words. Suddenly a lump of coal shot out of the fire of its own accord and hit the policeman right in the centre of his forehead, causing him to flee back down the stairs and onto the street as fast as his legs could carry him. (Guess one of the spirits didnt like policemen, ey? [Smile] )
The priest finished his blessing and from then on nothing else untoward occured in the house.
Years later, my dad had heard that the cobblers, and a few of the other shops in the street had been built on sacred graveyard ground a few years before his auntie moved into that house, and thats why my dad had seen the glowing coffin with the tresle.
None of it is there anymore, and as far as it goes nothing else untoward had happened once it was all demolished.

Anyway, thats my dad's little claim to ghost fame, but the 2 most famous and maybe most fascinating stories Slemen has had to offer are of McKenzie's Tomb and the legend of Spring-heeled Jack.

McKenzie's Tomb is situated in St Andrew's churchyard on Rodney Street, and is dubbed one of the most haunted placed in Britain.

A businessman called William McKenzie was a drunk and a heavy gambler. He would fritter his money away in the local pubs and play cards with strangers til dawn. But one night, just as he was on a winning roll, a man came up to him and challenged him to play. Already half cut, McKenzie agreed, and started playing with this man that none of the locals of the pub could ever recall seeing before. As the time passed, McKenzie lost all of his previous winnings and then some. And with nothing left to play with, he admitted defeat. Determined to keep McKenzie playing, the man said, "there is something you could put on the table". McKenzie told the man he had nothing left but the clothes on his back. "Lets play for your soul" the man said.
"My soul?" McKenzie said, "Are you serious?"
"You're a gambling man", the man said, "if you win, I'll give you everything you have lost back to you". Never one to turn down a challenge, McKenzie agreed. They played one last game, and sure enough, McKenzie lost. He had had enough and decided to get up to leave, when the man stopped him and said "where are you going?"
"I have nothing left for you to have" McKenzie replied. "I own your soul" the man said.
"What?" said McKenzie, and before his eyes the man's features turned gruesome.
"As soon as you die, your soul is mine!"
And with that, the "man" was gone.
This spooked McKenzie, who believed that he had seen the devil himself, and from that day made out his last will and testament.
He believed that if he was not buried in the ground, the devil could not have his soul.
So when McKenzie eventually died, he had some very strange requests in his will.
He requested that his corpse be sat at a table above ground, with a winning poker hand attatched to his hand so the devil could never reclaim his soul. Then they built a pyramid style tomb around his bizzarely sat corpse.
And thats what stands there today.

McKenzie's Tomb

Of course many believe that because of this McKenzie's soul is not at peace and that he leaves his tomb at night and wonders around Rodney Street, probably not believing how stupid he was to bet his soul to the devil in a card game. [Smile]

2 more occurances did happen at this Rodney street sight in the mid 80's I believe. Might have been early 80's I cant quite remember what was said. (I am writing this by memory folks!)
Anyway, 2 boys thought they would be clever and actually try and open the tomb to actually see if McKenzie's corpse was there. So just as it was getting dark, the 2 boys got through the gates and started picking at the tomb. Just as they took out the first stone and peered in, the police collared them after a tip off from a passer-by and led them away. But the boys did tell police that the stories were true. The looked into the tomb to see a skeleton sitting upright with a faded set of cards strapped to his hand by a leather strap.
The other occurrance was just to the left of that picture above there was some scaffolding up close to the old church ruins, and on it was a decomposed body that must have been there for at least a few months. The body's mouth was frozen in a screaming pose as if they were literally scared to death, with one of their now bony fingers pointing towards the tomb of McKenzie. Did McKenzie's ghost scare this person to death? Noone knows to this day who that body was. Another of life's little mysteries unsolved I guess.
At night time (being the brave girl I am) i've been around the vicinity of the tomb and actually taken pictures of it, but alas back then I had a pretty crap camera so nothing came out on the pictures [Frown]

The next story, of Spring-heeled Jack, is definately not for the faint of heart. But I think i've babbled on more than enough here, so here's the link instead [Big Grin]

The Legend of Spring-Heeled Jack

Please feel free to draw your own conclusions, or add your own grizzly stories and gruesome ghost tales, but if you do have some time and you want to freak yourself out ( [Big Grin] ) then check out some of Tom Slemen's best true ghost stories at www.slemen.com
They are mostly about Liverpool and the surrounding areas but all the stories there are eyewitness accounts and tales passed down from generations so they are believed to be true.

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Kuato
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yer a goof, scouser.

me, I don't play around with the supernatural- I only contact it deliberately (prayer, etc)

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TomDavidson
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quote:
if a ghost appeared to you and you were still skeptical, how would you logically explain it away?
When I was three years old, I was reading a Richard Scarry book and trying to fall asleep when suddenly all the figures on the page came to life and started going about their day; the policeman directed traffic, the cars rolled by, the man on the ladder reached the top of the roof and started painting....It was fascinating until suddenly they noticed me and began trying to climb out of the book, wanting to hurt me for some reason.

I shrieked and shrieked, and my dad rushed in. As soon as he did, it all vanished; the book went back to being perfectly normal.

So here's the question: is it more likely that a children's book came to life and tried to attack me, or is it more likely that I, half-asleep, hallucinated/dreamed the event?

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kenmeer livermaile
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Like the Great One said:

"One never knows, do one?"

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scouser1
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I think as a half-asleep child with a wild imagination can hardly be a comparison with say me being wide awake as an adult and seeing McKenzie at the end of Rodney Street.
Minds can play tricks on people, thats not what i'm addressing here, but that an apparition can stand in front of you and you have no contol over the that it wants to appear to you, or be in your picture.

My niece has encountered an "alleged" apparition as a child in the home my brother and his fiancee still share now. She was lying on the bed at bedtime and started laughing at the corner of the room saying a lady was making funny faces at her. Suddenly the room went cold and they ended up sleeping downstairs for the rest of the night. She was barely 2 years old.
As a toddler barely able to speak she climbed the steep stairs at bedtime when she stopped dead and wouldnt move, frozen to the spot with a scared look in her eyes. They tried everything to move her but she wouldnt budge, just kept looking at the same spot on the landing. Eventually she snapped out of her state and climbed up the stairs the rest of the way.
The house belongs to a friend of the family, and before that his mother owned it. When a picture of his mother ended up on the kitchen side and no-one knew how it got there. But my niece pointed and said that was the woman she had seen that was making her laugh 6 months prior.
I am a firm believer that innocent eyes see a lot more than anyone else. I have deliberately took pictures around the house but nothing yet has come about.

I know a lot of people that believe in God and heaven, but dont believe that there are restless souls still wandering the earth. Whats that all about?? They believed that Jesus turned water into wine and cured lepers and perormed miracles but you dont believe that a dead person's soul can walk among us? Something i've never ever got myself, and that i'm hoping someone can clkear up for me.

Hell i've actually taken pictures of things I cant explain. Like a picture of my mother I took in a now closed down pub with what looks like thick smoke around her, but she actually has a mini-fan on in her hand!

Ive also had several orbs in pictures, and i've managed to dig out the (crappy) but good enough picture of McKenzie's tomb.

Light just above the archway. This is where McKenzie walks through the wall to freak people out [Big Grin]

The Cathedral grounds with the graveyard at the bottom

McKenzie's Tomb

I'm not trying to say that people should believe theres no such things as ghosts and poltergeists, but but can you actually fully dismiss the ideas as well?

I'd personally love to put my scare factor to the test and go down here.

If Paul O'Grady can do it so can I! [Big Grin]

[ May 13, 2009, 10:37 AM: Message edited by: scouser1 ]

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KnightEnder
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This isn't a story, just an account of weird things that happened in the first townhouse Stacy and I lived in with newborn baby John.

Several times the tv in our bedroom popped on in the middle of the night. And one time also in the middle of the night, while Stacy and I slept, a broken jewelry box sitting on the dresser across from our bed, that Stacy had had for years, just started playing. Played the whole dang song and then just stopped. It woke us up and scared us to death. I didn't even no the damn thing played music. Also, twice I saw what I thought was Stacy going up the stairs to Little John's room only to have her walk out of the kitchen once and in from the back door the other. Both times I was positive I had seen somebody going up the stairs but when I checked of course nobody was there. Least suspicious was the fact that we would occasionally at night hear voices on the baby monitor. Of course, already being a skeptic and an atheist, I just assumed that that meant somebody nearby had a baby monitor too, but it was still spooky to be woke up in the middle of the night by voices or crying only to rush to Little John's baby room and find him sleeping peacefully, alone of course.

Lastly, the weirdest thing that ever happened at that townhouse happened on a night I was at home alone. I was going to meet Stacy and baby John at her mom's house, for dinner, across town. I got ready and as I was leaving I, as was my habit, turned off all the lights in the house. (We were very concerned about the light bill back then.) However as as I left the house and went to lock the door I looked up and saw the light in Little John's bedroom on the second floor was on. I figured; well maybe I forgot to turn that one light out. Resignedly I opened the door to go up and turn it out. To my shock every light in the house was on. As I inspected the house I discovered even the closet lights were on. I'm ashamed to say I left immediately leaving all the lights on and ran a couple of blocks over and got my dad to come back to the house with me. When we got there the house was still ablaze with light and as we shut them off they refused to pop back on in dads presence. However, with all the weird things that happened in that house Stacy never doubted my story about the lights.

Now I'm sure all of this was due to some weird electrical field around that townhouse, or something equally pedestrian, but whatever it was we moved out as soon as possible and never went back nor found out for certain why all those weird things happened. (All our other homes have been fine and that jewelry box has never played again.)

KE

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rightleft22
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After boot camp every so often I would ‘wake’ with the feeling of being watched. As the hairs on the back of my neck would stand up I’d ‘see’ ghosts standing by my bed or sitting on the chair by my bed watching me. Usually there was just one sometimes there was a group. As I Pushed my self awake I’d take a swing at them my arm traveling through them as they slowly disappeared. The ghosts followed me from posting to posting, showing up a couple of times a year. Each time I would wake in a sweat and sore shoulder as I usually hyper extended it. Now if they show up I just ask them what they want and or tell them to go away.
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Aris Katsaris
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scouser1, an easy explanation for your dad's story is that he was lying or grossly exaggerating or grossly misremembering.

And the sort of urban legend you describe... did you suddenly add on your second post a claim that you saw McKenzie's ghost -- without even an explanation of how you recognized it was McKenzie?

Not even worth commenting on.

quote:
They believed that Jesus turned water into wine and cured lepers and perormed miracles but you dont believe that a dead person's soul can walk among us?
That's obvious why: Christianity (most of it anyway) believes that souls are either saved or damned to hell. It doesn't allow for spirits of dead people to walk around on this world, though.

As far as I know Catholic Church and Eastern Orthodox both allow the possibility that these "ghosts" may be demons in disguise. But not souls of dead people. That's incompatible with Christian beliefs.

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scouser1
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I had a light flicker quite madly on me in my sister's house once when we were reminiscing about our nanna Pat. I still like to think that was a little sign from her sayin "I know your talking about me" [Smile]
Kinda brings some form of comfort for me to think that little things like that are happening for certain reasons.
I knew a girl once that claimed that figures would appear at the foot of her bed, but they were very sinister apparitions.
She wouldn't be able to move or cry out, as if the apparition was controlling her, and she said it felt like someone was pushing down on her chest.
Turns out her house was right on top of an old gallows. Go figure.

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jasonr
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quote:
After boot camp every so often I would ‘wake’ with the feeling of being watched. As the hairs on the back of my neck would stand up I’d ‘see’ ghosts standing by my bed or sitting on the chair by my bed watching me. Usually there was just one sometimes there was a group. As I Pushed my self awake I’d take a swing at them my arm traveling through them as they slowly disappeared. The ghosts followed me from posting to posting, showing up a couple of times a year. Each time I would wake in a sweat and sore shoulder as I usually hyper extended it. Now if they show up I just ask them what they want and or tell them to go away.
Is it a co-incidence that many of these "sightings" happen right around bed time, or when people are just at or near sleep? I think not. The phenomena is called Sleep Paralysis and I can say I've experienced it myself several times.

In layperson's terms (which is all I can speak in, since I'm no psychiatrist!) it arises when there is a cross-over between a conscious state and a dream state. You are, essentially, dreaming while awake. It's like when you are just about to fall asleep and you suddenly jerk your body up because you think you have fallen. Only I think sleep paralysis is that in reverse. Instead of your body not properly shutting off its motor controls during the dream, in the case of sleep paralysis, you are partly awake during the dream, but for whatever reason, you haven't quite regained your motor control.

If there was such a thing as spirits and ghosts, why do they seem to appear almost exclusively to individuals (and virtually never to large groups) and almost invariably at night? Where did this pattern come from? Why has no one been able to credibly capture this phenomena on camera?

I think the Rand foundation or someone is offering $100,000 to anyone who can actually prove the existence of supernatural phenomena. I don't believe anyone has succeeded thus far.

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scifibum
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Randi. [Wink] randi.org
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scouser1
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I didnt quite claim to have seen McKenzie's ghost, what you'll find is I said;

"I think as a half-asleep child with a wild imagination can hardly be a comparison with say me being wide awake as an adult and seeing McKenzie at the end of Rodney Street."

It was an instance if you will, a comparison that is all.
Should have explained that if it wasn't already clear enough.

I actually saw the ghost of my grandmother by a tree at her own funeral when I was 6. She was dressed in the nightdress she was buried in and I recognised her because I had seen her lie in state the day before. And also for the record, by this time I was not an "innocent eyes" child. She was there, looking. She died never knowing who I was, or actually who her own daughter was towards the end for that matter. Her head ravaged very early on (by her late 30's she was slowly losing her mind) by drink and horrific abuse at the hands of my evil grandfather. I think it was her way of saying "I'm here, and I did know who you were".

"That's obvious why: Christianity (most of it anyway) believes that souls are either saved or damned to hell. It doesn't allow for spirits of dead people to walk around on this world, though."

Jesus sacrificed himself for our sins, so does that mean Hitler and Stalin and all the evil people that walked the earth were forgiven for THEIR sins because of this fact and are now in heaven?
Hard to believe. Yeah.

Spirits that walk the earth have "unfinished business", maybe they are in purgatory for that fact I dont know, which means their souls cannot rest. They may have been killed, killed themselves (purgatory) or just simply have not been given a proper religious burial (just like the souls that haunt the Palermo catacombs. Hearings of babies crying because they did not have a choice to be mounted on a wall for the world and his wife to see, and should have been buried for them to be at peace.) How can someone's soul be in heaven or hell if it still clearly walks the earth?

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kenmeer livermaile
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Randi & the Skeptics are OK but they succumb to a superstitious faith in their disbelief in supernatural prospects. Gets annoying sometimes.

We don;t know what we don;t know and that's that.

I like to think of myself as a Fortean skeptic.

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scifibum
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I just have to shrug my shoulders and assume someone perceived or remembered things inaccurately with these stories. Without documentation that others can use to confirm that the events happened, or even better, repeatable experiments...I just can't believe ghost stories or similar accounts.
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scouser1
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I'm pretty sure that spirits have appeared in the daytime to people, and that groups of people have experienced the same feelings and emotions when there is a spirit close.

Cameras and video footage are funny things.
There can be tricks and can show things that are probably not there to the naked eye. Hell, they supposedly showed a man on the moon! Amazing! [Wink]

And there is also PLENTY of footage and photographs that cant easily be explained away, but at the end of the day, why should they have to? They could just say "well I think its fake so ner". No-one is going to contest anything.

Seriously, people are going to be skeptics and believers til the end of time, but this was not what this thread was originally about. It was for stories and experiences of unexplained phenomenoN (the word phenomena is just wrong. The "a" really has no use.), not to for an argument over whether ghosts exist or not.

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KnightEnder
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I wouldn't believe my story if I hadn't been there myself. Of course I would have to be a pretty big nut to turn on every light in my house and then go get my father to witness it.

The jewelry box? Maybe it got jostled when we moved in and just finally gave that night? But Stacy was right there with me that time. So at least I've got a witness. I'll get her to confirm.

KE

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scifibum
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Well, things like humidity and temperature changes could unstick a stuck jewelry box. I don't feel like I have to disbelieve that one, because there's a very mundane explanation.

The lights thing is a tough one. If you're remembering it accurately then I think it's more likely that you had someone pranking you than anything else.

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KnightEnder
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Yeah, what shocked me about it was that the switches were flipped up. Cause first thing I thought was maybe a weird power surge flipped all the lights on. But when I looked I saw that the switches were flipped on. I don't think a power surge would do that. I think it would take more than one person to do it as fast as it happened. And it is a pretty weird trick to never ever take credit for, don't you think?

KE

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Aris Katsaris
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quote:
Originally posted by scouser1:

She wouldn't be able to move or cry out, as if the apparition was controlling her, and she said it felt like someone was pushing down on her chest.

That's just sleeping paralysis. I've also had that. I've felt a terrifying huge entity walking around the room, then crushing my chest, while I was unable to move.

It's a mere malfunction of the sleeping mechanism. I've also experienced it -- nothing paranormal about it.

quote:
Go figure.
I wish you did try to figure some of that stuff out.

quote:
Spirits that walk the earth have "unfinished business",
Oh, for God's sake: You're either quoting the movie "Casper" or "Sixth Sense" or the series "Charmed Ones", or whatever. Unfinished business???

What the hell, man. You now not only know for *sure* that ghosts exist, but you seem to know *exactly* what they want, why they are here, what they seek, how they fit in with the whole cosmic plan.

"Unfinished business". Am glad we have you here telling us why ghosts exist.

And the funny thing is that I'm quite openminded about the existence of ghosts. But this weak-minded mental LAZINESS of using the pop-culture explanation for everything... that one I can't accept.

Most of you "believers" are culturally parochial.

"Unfinished Business". Because HOLLYWOOD told you that's what ghosts are doing here. Not anyone else. Not logic. Not openmindedness. Just plain Hollywood.

For example, regarding Knight Ender's stories:
Perhaps it was ghosts that switched on his lights or caused the malfunction of his music-box mechanism. But why couldn't it have been aliens instead? Why couldn't it have been the gods of Olympus instead? Why couldn't it have been witches? Why couldn't it have been leprecauns? Why couldn't it have been the trickster Coyote? Why couldn't it have been Thetans? Why couldn't a past life of his from Atlantis, hypnotizing his current one into flipping the switches himself?

Because our current pop-culture accepts Ghosts for this more easily than it accepts all these other explanations -- leprecauns, or ghosts, or witches, or even aliens.

Your mind leaped to "GHOST!" because flipping lights is something that fit Hollywood's idea of what a ghost does.

And if there's a mutilated cow, nobody thinks "ghost" or "vampire". They think "aliens" because mutilated cattle is what Hollywood's idea of what aliens do is.

God, the cultural closemindedness. The believers of the supernatural are the most closeminded people I've ever seen: They always have *one* explanation: Scouser (for example) not only knows that ghost appearances are the spirits of dead people, he also knows that Hollywood got it right, about why it is that ghosts are formed.

"Sacred ground"? "Unfinished business"?

From Poltergeist to Casper, there's no Hollywood pat explanation they haven't memorized.

Why doesn't scouser accept the Christian idea for example that it's demons that take the ghostly forms of loved ones?

Because that's not what his Hollywood-derived preconceptions are telling him, his Hollywood-derived preconceptions are telling him it's the actual dead people with "unfinished business".

Because he's closeminded.

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scifibum
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*puts head on desk*
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kenmeer livermaile
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"Because he's closeminded."

But you're not, of course, are you.

One can't prove a negative, and scouser isn't adding unnecessary entities. These are real phenomena. Their existence doesn't prove ghosts are real; nor does the existence of eminently plausible natural explanations of them prove they're unreality.

Anyway, whatever one thinks of the relative configuration of scouser's mind, she has a *great* rack.

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Aris Katsaris
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quote:
"Because he's closeminded."

But you're not, of course, are you.

Since I'm willing to accept the existence of ghosts (and demons/aliens/brain chemistry screwing up), but she's unwilling to reject all but ONE explanation -- yeah, I'm not nearly as closeminded as she is.

quote:
"One can't prove a negative"
Exactly. It's impossible to prove ghosts do NOT exist -- that's why I'm not bothering to argue concerning it. Same it's impossible to prove demons do NOT exist, and that leprecauns do not exist, etc, etc.

But scouser rejects all sorts of possibilities (demons, prankster gods, aliens etc) that I don't. I don't know if demons/gods/aliens exist.

I don't know if there's any actual entities behind those phenomena, or if it's just the brain mechanism farting up illusions (same as the sleep paralysis is the brain mechanism screwing up).

But you people who reject *all* explanations except one, dare to call yourselves "openminded", and dare to accuse us of closemindedness, because we offer different explanations.

quote:
"One can't prove a negative, and scouser isn't adding unnecessary entities."
She's adding lots of unnecessary motivations and causes. "Unfinished Business". Graveyards. Gallows. The devil betting with souls. All the standard Hollywood tropes.

But when it comes to tropes that the Christian Churches believe but Hollywood hasn't embraced (e.g. ghosts being actually demonic attempts to deceive), scouser closedmindedly rejects those ones.

Because she KNOWS that it's truly the spirits of loved ones with "unfinished business". It's the ONE TRUE EXPLANATION, you see: Backed up by all the Hollywood flicks.

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kenmeer livermaile
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" a) I'm not trying to say that people should believe theres no such things as ghosts and poltergeists, but but can you actually fully dismiss the ideas as well?

b) Since I'm willing to accept the existence of ghosts (and demons/aliens/brain chemistry screwing up), but she's unwilling to reject all but ONE explanation -- yeah, I'm not nearly as closeminded as she is."

Really. Apparently you place more faith in the apparitions your mind places over her actual words than her actual words. I'm not saying that your interpretation of scouser's words can;t be true; I'm only saying that there is certainly more than one explanation of them than the words you put in her mouth for her.

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kenmeer livermaile
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"a) One can't prove a negative, and scouser isn't adding unnecessary entities."

b) She's adding lots of unnecessary motivations and causes. "Unfinished Business". Graveyards. Gallows. The devil betting with souls. All the standard Hollywood tropes."

Sleep paralysis explanation and their ilk (such as neurochem explanations for NDEs) also add unproven, hence unnecessary ingredients in their (pay attention now, son or daughter) explanations of phenomena. Now if you'll read my actual words again, in context --

quote:
One can't prove a negative, and scouser isn't adding unnecessary entities. These are real phenomena. Their existence doesn't prove ghosts are real; nor does the existence of eminently plausible natural explanations of them prove they're unreality.
--

you'll find they allude more to the *phenomena* see seeks to explain as she will rather than those explanations thereof.

Hint: to be good at being an ass one must a) do it intentionally and b) have practiced at it. Lookit me, for example: I'm a ass. And a damn good one. So far, you've just managed to be an annoying little ****.

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Aris Katsaris
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If I've misinterpreted her words, she can correct me. Let her tell me where she got this idea of "unfinished business" -- which was hardly a common one before Hollywood popularized it.

You'll note that http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/UnfinishedBusiness has no examples of this trope before the late 20th century.

Remember that Marlowe's ghost and Hamlet's father both were *damned souls* that were permitted to give a warning and instruction to the living. There was no "unfinished business before they can rest". They were DAMNED to hell. There was no rest for them, before or after.

The idea of the kindly loving ghost who has unfinished business before he/she can rest, seems a VERY recent invention.

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kenmeer livermaile
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Hollywood as a source of new forms of fable (although friendly ghosts with unfinished business are as old as ancestor worship, which is as old as any religious form) has nothing to do with open-or-closed-mindedness. You're switching horses midstream. Everyone can see you doing it.
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Lina Inverse
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It's probably a watering-down of the more wide-spread idea of vengeful ghosts, who had unfinished business with someone they were mad at/humanity in general.
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KnightEnder
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I would way rather it have been aliens because I want to meet aliens, but I don't want to meet ghosts. However, either it would prove the aliens have a good sense of humore or that they were incredibly silly. I'm not sure which. Power surge, recent move, local kids, Occams Razor?

KE

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Aris Katsaris
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kenmeer, in regards to your second post -- I no longer find you remotely readable. Your post is composed of:
-illogical nonsense like "unproven, hence unnecessary"
-padding like "pay attention now, son or daughter"
-sheer ParseFailureExceptions like "see seeks to explain as she will rather than those explanations thereof"
-comments on qualities of ass, similar to how you previously commented on the quality of scouser's "rack".

So you will excuse me if I can't respond to any of that -- I simply don't understand any of it.

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Aris Katsaris
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quote:
Originally posted by kenmeer livermaile:
Hollywood as a source of new forms of fable has nothing to do with open-or-closed-mindedness.

It has to do with the particular form of closedmindedness that scouser was guilty of. Others can be religiously closedminded, or atheistically closedminded. Scouser was Hollywoodishly closedminded. All about graveyards and gallows and ghosts with unfinished business. Also about deals-with-Satan but without the more ecclesiastically orthodox idea of demonic spirits fooling people.

The "Unfinished Business" trope section isn't even that big.

quote:
You're switching horses midstream. Everyone can see you doing it.
I've bashed the Hollywood-derived parochialism from the moment scouser mentioned the "Unfinished Business" silliness. No changing of horses here. The moment she said it I bashed it, and I keep on bashing it ever since.

quote:
(although friendly ghosts with unfinished business are as old as ancestor worship, which is as old as any religious form)
I don't see what ancestor worship has to do with ghosts, let alone ghosts with unfinished business. You'll need to give me some more specific references if you want me to accept this.

[ May 13, 2009, 06:35 PM: Message edited by: Aris Katsaris ]

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kenmeer livermaile
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Boy, you can't even tell when you've jumped horses, can you? even when someone says

"Hollywood as a source of new forms of fable (although friendly ghosts with unfinished business are as old as ancestor worship, which is as old as any religious form) has nothing to do with open-or-closed-mindedness."

(Caveat: I should have written 'inherently' after "nothing".)

But you are correct that "unproven, hence unnecessary" is inadequately written and hence easily read is illogical nonsense. What I meant was that if part of a theory isn't proven by substantiating data, it isn't necessary to the phenomenon. It may be necessary to that *theory*, but since the theory isn't yet proven, the theory itself isn't necessary. The use of "necessary" was in the sense Occam meant when he said "Don't multiply entities unnecessarily".

As yet unproven theories relying on known natural phenomena still, at their conclusion, boil down to: "And here, a miracle happens." Miracle in this case being hyperbole for 'something as yet unknown'. All theories multiply entities unnecessarily until necessity is established by corroborating evidence, capisce?

Now when it comes to extremely counterintuitive evidence of the senses, such as "I see Uncle jack who's been dead for 7 years standing before me plain as day and I have no conscious awareness of any effort on my part to use my imagination to manifest this apparition", it is no more unnecessary about invoking supernatural entities as explanation than it is to invoke neurochem/psychotic entities known as tangible, mutually consensual phenomena.

When attempting to explain things that are known to be out of this world (such as what was once Uncle jack but is now a moldering corpse), it is as valid to invoke out of this world hypotheses as not.

All that said, you have insisted that scouser will accept no other explanation than the out of this world i.e. supernatural variety. I do not see this in her words. I see it as something you have projected upon her words, therefore multiplying your own unnecessary entity from your own imagination, positing some kind of pigheadedness on scouser's part that I don;t see her words having displayed.

Instead, I see you doing what you accuse her of doing.

"I don't see what ancestor worship has to do with ghosts, let alone ghosts with unfinished business. You'll need to give me some more specific references if you want me to accept this."

Boy, you IZZ cognitively constipated, isn't you? Um, hint: the idea of ancestor worship is that one's ancestors are still somehow alive in some form somewhere.

As for me calling you 'son', that's just personal expression, an anthropomorphization, if you will, of my contempt for the attitudes conveyed in your posts into my current image of what the stature of your discursive character measures up to.

In simpler words: dis-missed.

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Funean
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Racks are always important.

Some people are able to disagree and rebut without being dismissive asses about it. It's a helpful skill in when talking to people about their personal beliefs, and in environments with a diversity of opinion, like workplaces, schools and families. Or, you know, any place with more than one person in it.

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Aris Katsaris
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quote:
"Boy, you IZZ cognitively constipated, isn't you? Um, hint: the idea of ancestor worship is that one's ancestors are still somehow alive in some form somewhere."
Yeah, much like saints are alive in heaven. A completely different idea to the idea of ghosts: spirits haunting an earthly location.

So, you utterly fail here.

And since it's getting late (3:50AM over here) for me to continue discussing with the stupid (and especially the assholish stupid) I'll have to call it a night after this post.

quote:
All that said, you have insisted that scouser will accept no other explanation than the out of this world i.e. supernatural variety. I do not see this in her words.
As I've said before: If I misunderstood her in any particular, she's free to correct me. But one quote of hers which clearly showed she accepted no other explanation is:
quote:
How can someone's soul be in heaven or hell if it still clearly walks the earth?
Souls, according to her, "clearly" walk the earth. It's not merely her preferred explanation. To her, it's the *only* explanation. The phenomena she describes ("ghosts") are souls that *clearly* walk the earth.

Lastly: Using big mostly meaningless expressions e.g. like "neurochem/psychotic entities known as tangible, mutually consensual phenomena" doesn't makes you look smart. The very opposite. Intelligence is shown via the succinct communication of meaning, not via babbling incoherence.

You also used "anthropomorphization" wrong. Since I'm human in reality, calling me "son" isn't an anthropomorphization. You probably meant that "son" was an "expression" of your contempt -- but the word "expression" of course didn't sound educated enough for your variety of longwinded smug stupidity.

Don't try to use to use Greek words on the Greek, kenmeer: We actually know how to use them properly. You'll have a better chance to hide your stupidity if you stick to Latin.

[ May 13, 2009, 07:53 PM: Message edited by: Aris Katsaris ]

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kenmeer livermaile
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I like helpful skills and use them when I feel their use is likely to produce a helpful outcome. When I don't feel that way... then I go for what pleases me. Might as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb.

aRIS: i WAS REFERRING TO my CONCEPT OF YOUR CHARACTER, WHICH IS, i ASSURE YOU, REQUIRING SOME SCAFFOLDING OF BENEVOLENTLY GENEROUS IMAGINATION ON MY PART TO BE WHAT i CALL HUMAN. bUT THEN, IT REQUIRES(dck!!!) a stool to properly attend to a horse's ass also.

Basically, you;re a pedant, which by itself is OK, nothing wrong with it. But pedants have little if any standing to speak of another's close-mindedness.

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kenmeer livermaile
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" a)How can someone's soul be in heaven or hell if it still clearly walks the earth?

b) Souls, according to her, "clearly" walk the earth. It's not merely her preferred explanation. To her, it's the *only* explanation. The phenomena she describes ("ghosts") are souls that *clearly* walk the earth."

Souls are themselves hypothetical entities, you know.

"Lastly: Using big mostly meaningless expressions e.g. like "neurochem/psychotic entities known as tangible, mutually consensual phenomena" doesn't makes you look smart. The very opposite. Intelligence is shown via the succinct communication of meaning, not via babbling incoherence."

Oh, Aris, I have no interest in appearing smart to you or anyone here or elsewhere. I've suffered being the smartest of or one of the smartest people in every social setting I've experienced, and it gives me little if any pleasure.

I used those terms to reference the basic notions of how we explain phenomena like ghostly apparitions/NDE/et cetera. Also because I like to be fairly precise:

neurochemical is handy shorthand for phsyically explained cognitive functions

psychotic is, well, psychotic, no new term there

tangible, consensually mutual means stuff that we can both agree exists in a manner both our minds can perceive in a consistent manner we can corroborate through communication

That's all.

And now, let's us be done. It's a shame, because I rather liked some of what you have to offer here, but I am at a point in my life where I simply cannot tolerate willful ignorance anymore.

I begin to understand why folks who've been members of a forum for years like 'ignore' functions.

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jasonr
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I think Aris's point is that we seem to be noticing a pattern in which believers have very specific beliefs that are apparently culturally sensitive. In the middle ages people perceived demons but not aliens, and today they perceive aliens but seldom demons.

It just seems rather arbitrary and suspiciously tailored to the time, place, and individual experiencing it. Ghosts have "unfinished business" but demons are there to trick us into... what exactly?

And of course, whatever they are, they just never appear in broad daylight on 5th Avenue in front of F.A.O. Schwartz, or at the Burger King during lunch time. They exclusively like to appear to people alone, typically during or just before sleep. Hmmm....

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kenmeer livermaile
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"I think Aris's point is that we seem to be noticing a pattern in which believers have very specific beliefs that are apparently culturally sensitive. In the middle ages people perceived demons but not aliens, and today they perceive aliens but seldom demons. '

I agree with that point but abhor the baggage Aris attached to it regarding scouser herself; and when dealing with Kenmeer, once you go ad hominem, it's open season on your ass.

Don't start nuthin' won';t be nuthin'.

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scouser1
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I'm not saying other things don't go on. I'm not saying "Ooh theres a spaceship in the sky, thats an unknown ghostly entity!"
I plucked stories out of experiences i've known where there is paranormal activity regarding ghosts because people seem to mis-believe that rather than said aliens/demons/gods. Bottom line is; theres non-believers (like yourself, Aris, obviously), theres people that believe without experience of paranormal activity, and theres people that believe with experience of paranormal activity. People would rather explain it away til the cows come home rather than believe that theres someone's soul trying to communicate with them.
Bottom line, until it happens to you, you have no clue what it feels like, how it feels at the time, how your emotions play out, nothing.

The whole thing of "unfinished business" is true. People's souls cannot rest for one reason or another, thats why people see and capture ghosts. These are my own personal opinions only. Trying to force the subject here is not making anybody change their mind of how or what they believe.

I have always been open minded to other things.
Things that people can explain away til the day is long, and they may be right, but what you believe is so much more powerful than what someone is trying to dismiss it as.

It is exactly like God, you either believe it, or you dont. And people will argue the t**s til the end of time.

I see no-one bothered to dismiss my whole "Jesus died for our sins" thing. [LOL]
"Yeah lets talk about the fact that she stupidly thinks ghosts exist rather than putting her straight about Jesus" Love it!

"And of course, whatever they are, they just never appear in broad daylight on 5th Avenue in front of F.A.O. Schwartz, or at the Burger King during lunch time. They exclusively like to appear to people alone, typically during or just before sleep. Hmmm.."

Well, when I seen my grandmother we wern't exactly burying her in the dead of night.
And as I said there was no innocence at the time, she was just there as plain as the nose on my face. It could have been my imagination, but I was never exactly close to her. As I said she barely knew who I was, and I only tagged along with my mother to see her in the nursing home when there was no-one else to look after me. If truth be told I never knew who she was, not really. So why exactly would I make her up in my mind as standing by the tree if I didnt know any better? Certainly not out of grief of losing her.

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Aris Katsaris
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quote:
It is exactly like God, you either believe it, or you dont.
It is exactly like God -- people who believe in their culturally-approved version of God rarely seem to understand that by doing so they automatically *disbelieve* a thousand *different* versions.

By believing in YHWH as the supreme (or only) deity, it automatically means that they can't believe in Zeus as the supreme deity. Or Huitzilipochtli. Or Ahura Mazda. Or a deistic creator.

Same with you. By being sure that ghost claims are real cases of souls walking around with unfinished business, you're closing your mind to alternate possibilities.

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scouser1
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Its not ABOUT closing my mind as i've said. Just as i'm not contesting what KE said by going "oh yeah KE, your house was definately haunted by a ghost with all them lights turning on!"

All these things I told of in the first post (which may I draw your attention to the ACTUAL name of the thread "True" ghost stories, unexplained happenings and supernatural occurances. Which has now been ruined by you and others wanting to argue the toss whether ghosts and other things exist or not which i've already said it was NOT ABOUT IN THE FIRST PLACE) are stories. Stories that I think are to be true. Drawn from my own experiences, those of my family and friends. I believe it does happen. Its not ABOUT closing your mind to other possibilities, its taking something and drawing your own conclusions on things, whether they be right or wrong. THIS IS THE WORLD OF FREE SPEECH AND THINKING GUY! GET WITH THE PROGRAM!

We take 1 story, I say its possibly a ghost, you say its "tricks of the light" or however you explain away.
None of us know! Its just opinion.
Not once have I claimed that any of these stories are true, I said they are "believed" to be true. But someone thats actually experienced it and it has drove pure fear into that person, is their fear also going to be dismissed as "oh, ya must have had cold blowin' down ya neck luv, no ghosts here."

As I said, until you encounter it, you dont know what you're talking about.

"Oh yes theres a ghost of the butcher down the street that killed himself. Its ok, its just a ball of gas/my wild imagination/i'm losing my mind/ I'm seeing him 'cos I was in love with him etc."

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