Ornery.org
  Front Page   |   About Ornery.org   |   World Watch   |   Guest Essays   |   Contact Us

The Ornery American Forum Post New Topic  Post A Reply
my profile login | register | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» The Ornery American Forum » General Comments » Is Eatin the same as Cheatin?

 - UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!    
Author Topic: Is Eatin the same as Cheatin?
Viking_Longship
Member
Member # 3358

 - posted      Profile for Viking_Longship   Email Viking_Longship       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Does oral sex actual count as sex?

For me it's no, though I would consider it infidelity, as I would french kissing.

No judgement, just curious what you all think.

Posts: 5765 | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
DonaldD
Member
Member # 1052

 - posted      Profile for DonaldD   Email DonaldD   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I thought this was going to be about diets... (no, not really)

Are you really just asking for people's definition of the word 'sex' (as asked in the first sentence of your post) or are you asking what people consider infidelity (as asked in the thread title?)

Posts: 10751 | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TommySama
Member
Member # 2780

 - posted      Profile for TommySama   Email TommySama       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
You're in good company, Marilyn Manson also thinks oral sex is not sex. But he goes further and says it isn't cheating, either.


DD, (I immediately thought of the House episode where the woman "understands" why her boyfriend cheated on her. But she flips out when she learns he just ate a hamburger).

Posts: 6396 | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
JoshCrow
Member
Member # 6048

 - posted      Profile for JoshCrow   Email JoshCrow   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I don't really think there's a useful discrimination to be made between intercourse and oral sex as far as intimacy is concerned. If you're talking about "degrees of wrongness" in the context of cheating, then I'd say the difference between the two is virtually negligible. It has to do with an intangible element (intimacy) anyways. If I was asleep when some strange chick gave me a BJ somehow without my knowledge, I wouldn't be a "cheater" - it's the decisions that make something cheating. Personal opinion, of course.

[ December 09, 2009, 01:34 PM: Message edited by: JoshCrow ]

Posts: 2281 | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
0Megabyte
Member
Member # 1217

 - posted      Profile for 0Megabyte   Email 0Megabyte       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Is it cheating? Yes.

Is it the same as sex? Well, if it isn't, it's close enough. It's certainly much more than a french kiss.

Posts: 2668 | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TommySama
Member
Member # 2780

 - posted      Profile for TommySama   Email TommySama       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"Does oral sex actual count as sex?"

Practically they are the same, however I think oral sex is worse, depending on the situation. Oral sex is tied up with power: receiving direct pleasure without giving any directly back. (I'm assuming the relationship requires fidelity). So the partner of the cheater would be cuckolded, and also know their partner was willing to cheat on them, but also to do it in a way that they didn't directly benefit from.

Posts: 6396 | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
kmbboots
Member
Member # 6161

 - posted      Profile for kmbboots   Email kmbboots   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
It depends entirely on what the people involved consider cheating. If your spouse has asked that you not engage in whatever and you have promised not to and then break that promise, it is cheating.
Posts: 2635 | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Kuato
Member
Member # 6445

 - posted      Profile for Kuato   Email Kuato       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
so...... who's askin
Posts: 1038 | Registered: Apr 2009  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Aris Katsaris
Member
Member # 888

 - posted      Profile for Aris Katsaris   Email Aris Katsaris   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
"Does oral sex actual count as sex?"
Only if it's mutual (sequential or simultaneous). Otherwise it's a form of assisted masturbation (less like sex, more like a handjob).

Anything can only count as something if there's some person counting.

So the answer will be different depending on whether you ask the Catholic Church, Bill Clinton, or me.

Posts: 3318 | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Greg Davidson
Member
Member # 3377

 - posted      Profile for Greg Davidson   Email Greg Davidson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I disagree with this opinion:
quote:
Oral sex is tied up with power: receiving direct pleasure without giving any directly back
It is a thing of wonder and joy to give pleasure to your spouse (or, if you are not in a monogamous relationship, to your lover). Even going back to before I was married, I never experienced oral sex as something about power - instead, it's a really cool feature that comes with our bodies.
Posts: 4178 | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TommySama
Member
Member # 2780

 - posted      Profile for TommySama   Email TommySama       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I agree. When I said "tied up with" I meant to convey that oral sex is not always about power. Going down just "to give pleasure to" whoever you are sucking off or licking out, when you are in a relationship with somebody who expects you not to do that, is doubly insulting as getting carried away and having sex or 69ing with somebody (I wrote "exciting" where insulting now is. Maybe revelatory [Smile] )
Posts: 6396 | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Viking_Longship
Member
Member # 3358

 - posted      Profile for Viking_Longship   Email Viking_Longship       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Greg Davidson:
I disagree with this opinion:
quote:
Oral sex is tied up with power: receiving direct pleasure without giving any directly back
It is a thing of wonder and joy to give pleasure to your spouse (or, if you are not in a monogamous relationship, to your lover). Even going back to before I was married, I never experienced oral sex as something about power - instead, it's a really cool feature that comes with our bodies.
Jerry O'Connel's charachter says in a movie called Body Shots (bad movie, btw) that it's ridiculous to think men don't enjoy giving oral sex. "we wouldn't do it if we didn't like it".

I wasn't equating french kissing and oral sex earlier. I was saying that both would constitute infidelity but the latter is definately worse.

Posts: 5765 | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
kmbboots
Member
Member # 6161

 - posted      Profile for kmbboots   Email kmbboots   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Greg Davidson:
I disagree with this opinion:
quote:
Oral sex is tied up with power: receiving direct pleasure without giving any directly back
It is a thing of wonder and joy to give pleasure to your spouse (or, if you are not in a monogamous relationship, to your lover). Even going back to before I was married, I never experienced oral sex as something about power - instead, it's a really cool feature that comes with our bodies.
I disagree, too. I have certainly experienced pleasure (I am talking physical pleasure) when giving oral sex and have been blessed by men who (demonstrably) did as well.
Posts: 2635 | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
scifibum
Member
Member # 945

 - posted      Profile for scifibum   Email scifibum   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I think fellatio with a condom is actually far less intimate than french kissing. I wouldn't really say that deep kissing is far from oral sex at all, on an infidelity scale from Cleaver to Woods.
Posts: 6847 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
tonylovern
Member
Member # 2580

 - posted      Profile for tonylovern   Email tonylovern   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
i would guess that it depends on how open your partner is. if its not a conversation your willing to have, then you should consider whether or not you feel the need to keep it a secret.

if you do need to keep it a secret, the cheating line can be crossed with much less. something as simple as going to see a movie or holding hands could make your partner feel betrayed.

the question becomes, will action X hurt your partner's feelings?

if you're doing something behind your partners back that you know will hurt them, you sacrifice any moral high ground. statements like "eatin aint cheatin" are completely useless if you know for a fact that your partner will consider it so.

Posts: 1045 | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
DonaldD
Member
Member # 1052

 - posted      Profile for DonaldD   Email DonaldD   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"i would guess that it depends on how open your partner is."

Darn. Coke all over the keyboard.

Posts: 10751 | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
OpsanusTau
Member
Member # 2350

 - posted      Profile for OpsanusTau   Email OpsanusTau   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
I wouldn't really say that deep kissing is far from oral sex at all, on an infidelity scale from Cleaver to Woods.
Now can we all talk about deep kissing as a way for humans to use the full capacity of our vomeronasal organs and Cranial Nerve Zero? Because I definitely read a paper about that a few months ago.

Exchange of pheromones, hooray!

Posts: 3791 | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Rallan
Member
Member # 1936

 - posted      Profile for Rallan   Email Rallan   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'd consider oral to be sex. Ditto for anal, handjobs, frottage, toys, and tribadism. And anything I've missed that involves two or more people trying to get off together.

Oh and I don't see oral or any of the other possibilities as implying some sort of power inequality. That sort of second-wave feminism silliness needs to be put in a box and thrown into a river along with the silly notion that all penetration is rape.

Posts: 2570 | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TommySama
Member
Member # 2780

 - posted      Profile for TommySama   Email TommySama       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I don't think I've ever been mistakenly called feminist =), whatever feminist means.

You just need to read Antioch college's sexual assault rules so you get some sensitivity.

Posts: 6396 | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
asmalls4
Member
Member # 6504

 - posted      Profile for asmalls4   Email asmalls4       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I consider oral sex to be the same as sex. I also consider it cheating if you have oral sex or any other kind of sex with someone other than your partner.
I don't associate oral sex with power over your partner either. I find it to be another great way to enjoy each other in a sexual way.

Posts: 161 | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
tonylovern
Member
Member # 2580

 - posted      Profile for tonylovern   Email tonylovern   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
looks like theres no clintonesque technicalities for scifi.
Posts: 1045 | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Rallan
Member
Member # 1936

 - posted      Profile for Rallan   Email Rallan   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TommySama:
I don't think I've ever been mistakenly called feminist =), whatever feminist means.

You just need to read Antioch college's sexual assault rules so you get some sensitivity.

I was just grasping for the only other example I could find of people trying to suggest that some sort of power play is an inherent or implied part of a sexual act between adults.
Posts: 2570 | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TommySama
Member
Member # 2780

 - posted      Profile for TommySama   Email TommySama       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"I don't associate oral sex with power over your partner either."

Jesus christ. Not when people do it to each other. My thinking was when your girlfriend goes and sucks a guys dick - and only that. I would be more pissed about that.

Posts: 6396 | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pete at Home
Member
Member # 429

 - posted      Profile for Pete at Home   Email Pete at Home   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by asmalls4:
I consider oral sex to be the same as sex. I also consider it cheating if you have oral sex or any other kind of sex with someone other than your partner.

Shrug. Would you consider it cheating if your husband purchased another woman an expensive piece of jewelwry? IIRC one survey showed that most married American women said they'd feel *more* betrayed if their husband did that than if he actually had sex.

I agree with you that they are all cheating but agree with Scifi that it's still a sliding scale. And condom v. without condom should also figure into any reasonable sliding scale. But different couples have different expectations, and to what degree something is cheating depends on the reasonable expectations of the parties.

OTOH, if one is arguing with one's spouse about the degrees of an infidelity that has occurred, i.e. whether condoms were used, which sex acts occurred, and intimacy factors like was she looking into his eyes as she blew him, etc., I reckon the marriage is in for a rough ride, no pun intended.

Posts: 44193 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pete at Home
Member
Member # 429

 - posted      Profile for Pete at Home   Email Pete at Home   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TommySama:
"I don't associate oral sex with power over your partner either."

*********

Please control yourself.
Posts: 44193 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pete at Home
Member
Member # 429

 - posted      Profile for Pete at Home   Email Pete at Home   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
In case what I meant wasn't clear, coming on a mormon author's blog and using that particular epithet is about as tasteless and offensive as the Die Hard III scenario of walking around Harlem with a sign that says "I hate n____s" I would appreciate if you'd find a different way to express yourself.
Posts: 44193 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TommySama
Member
Member # 2780

 - posted      Profile for TommySama   Email TommySama       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"In case what I meant wasn't clear, coming on a mormon author's blog and using that particular epithet is about as tasteless and offensive as the Die Hard III scenario of walking around Harlem with a sign that says "I hate n____s" I would appreciate if you'd find a different way to express yourself."

I didn't realize it was your website. Ahura Mazda!

Posts: 6396 | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
scifibum
Member
Member # 945

 - posted      Profile for scifibum   Email scifibum   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
quote:
Originally posted by asmalls4:
I consider oral sex to be the same as sex. I also consider it cheating if you have oral sex or any other kind of sex with someone other than your partner.

Shrug. Would you consider it cheating if your husband purchased another woman an expensive piece of jewelwry? IIRC one survey showed that most married American women said they'd feel *more* betrayed if their husband did that than if he actually had sex.

I agree with you that they are all cheating but agree with Scifi that it's still a sliding scale. And condom v. without condom should also figure into any reasonable sliding scale. But different couples have different expectations, and to what degree something is cheating depends on the reasonable expectations of the parties.

OTOH, if one is arguing with one's spouse about the degrees of an infidelity that has occurred, i.e. whether condoms were used, which sex acts occurred, and intimacy factors like was she looking into his eyes as she blew him, etc., I reckon the marriage is in for a rough ride, no pun intended.

I'm not entirely sure you intended it, Pete, but I'm slightly uncomfortable with the implied contrast between my views and asmalls's, since she is my wife (I also don't know if you've run across this fact).

I would tend to agree that oral sex is sex, especially when categorizing acts into the buckets "cheating" and "not cheating". That I find certain sex acts to be potentially less intimate than kissing doesn't really register on that scale.

That being said, I would not be comfortable putting an expensive gift into either bucket without a lot more context - and I'm sure there are tons of other examples of acts that I would not find so easy to categorize. So while I'm not entirely sure there's a sliding scale so much as a necessary examination to determine what's OK and not (once the most obvious things are sorted), I would tend to agree that there are things that some might consider cheating that I would probably consider far less egregious than choosing to copulate with someone other than the spouse.

Posts: 6847 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
scifibum
Member
Member # 945

 - posted      Profile for scifibum   Email scifibum   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
P.S. I realize I referred to a "scale of infidelity" before...just not sure that was a good way to describe it. As Pete says, if you're calibrating on something that happened, there's probably a problem.
Posts: 6847 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pete at Home
Member
Member # 429

 - posted      Profile for Pete at Home   Email Pete at Home   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Scifi, I didn't realize you were married, but I don't think that your views contradict asmalls, otherwise I could not have agreed with both of you. You addressed one side of the issue while she addressed another.

Oral sex is sex as far it violates the typical reasonable expectation of fidelity, and yet different sexual circumstances may involve more or less culpability. Clearly any such act can put the whole marriage in jeopardy, but it seems to me that unprotected sex creates a greater hazard, since there's a risk of extramarital reproduction, combined with a risk of bringing home a disease to the spouse. Danger Will Robinson.

And sorry if I sound like a Dufflepud, but I agree both with your earlier statement that there's a sliding scale of infidelity (for reasons stated above) and your later statement that that earlier statement is probably not "a good way to describe it," since any point on that sliding scale is, well, a really really bad and irresponsible thing.

OTOH I might say the same thing about asmals statement that oral sex is sex, that it's true but perhaps not dispositive. Even if Oral sex were not categorized as sex, it would still be intimate enough to violate a reasonable expectation of fidelity. I don't think that most folks would be thrilled to find their spouse french kissing someone else, even though most of us would agree that a french kiss is not sex.

[ December 20, 2009, 01:54 AM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

Posts: 44193 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Ikemook
Member
Member # 1519

 - posted      Profile for Ikemook   Email Ikemook   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Oral sex is tied up with power: receiving direct pleasure without giving any directly back.
Somewhat of a side topic, but I would actually agree that oral sex (or any kind of sex, for that matter) definitely involves power, though its not necessarily the power you're speaking of here.

Presumably, you're not one to have oral sex with someone you don't have some degree of trust in; you're unlikely to, for example, walk up to some random person on the street and ask for a blowjob. You (and I don't mean you in particular here) must have *some* level of trust in your partner, and trust is definitely a relationship of power. Trust leaves you vulnerable to the other, and gives them the ability to affect you in ways you might not necessarily want. The fact that you consent to it does not magically make this power relationship disappear. Rather, in my mind it just renders it healthy and ethical.

Furthermore, I have to admit that I wonder if some aspect of sex involves a sort of "power to please." That is, part of the thrill or enjoyment of the act comes from the implicit recognition of the power of one or both partners (or more, if that's the circumstances) to bring pleasure to the other. In effect, that part of the enjoyment is the ability to manipulate the physical and emotional state of another human being. Heck, that could play into my first point; the fact that another human being consents to such a manipulation on your part may very well make up part of the enjoyment of the act.

I'm not so sure this is the case all the time, but it nonetheless strikes me as a particularly intriguing hypothesis. Particularly if you examine male language concerning sex, and the connection between sex and conquest. I have overheard many (honestly, far too many) conversations during field work between guys bragging about how capable they are of pleasing their girlfriends or wives. A second-wave feminist might very well dismiss this as typical male dominance, but I know these guys well enough to know that the relationships with their wives are in no way one-sided; the sex is very much consensual, and the power relationships go both ways.

Anyway, I guess my point is that you really cannot divorce sex from power. The very act of sex itself seems to me to involve at least some degree of power, and that power may very well make up part of the human races' enjoyment of it. Which is not to say that sex is *entirely* about power, of course. But it does strike me as an important part of it.

[Edited to add: Oh, yeah, and as for the main topic, I agree with what Pete said in the post just before mine.]

[ December 21, 2009, 09:28 PM: Message edited by: Ikemook ]

Posts: 415 | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pete at Home
Member
Member # 429

 - posted      Profile for Pete at Home   Email Pete at Home   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I wanted to add something about sex and power, but Ikemook brilliantly captured everything I was going to say, plus a number of insights that hadn't yet occurred to me.

Yep, all the way from the molecular level (where monomanaical macromolecules hijack foreign cells to help themselves replicate at lower cost) to the arms race of makeup, high heeled shoes, and 90 pound weaklings buying weight sets to impress the ladies on muscle beach, sex is about power.

Fortunately for civilization, it's not only about power.

Posts: 44193 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Stevarooni
Member
Member # 6053

 - posted      Profile for Stevarooni   Email Stevarooni   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
In my book oral sex is sex (it's in the name, after all). Intercourse is also sex. For me, either would be cheating if participated in willingly. At gunpoint, while asleep...yeah, those wouldn't be cheating. I understand that others have more accepting views of it, but those are mine.
Posts: 536 | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
   

Quick Reply
Message:

HTML is not enabled.
UBB Code™ is enabled.
UBB Code™ Images not permitted.
Instant Graemlins
   


Post New Topic  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | Ornery.org Front Page

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.7.1