Ornery.org
  Front Page   |   About Ornery.org   |   World Watch   |   Guest Essays   |   Contact Us

The Ornery American Forum Post New Topic  Post A Reply
my profile login | register | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» The Ornery American Forum » General Comments » Feds Warrantlessly Tracking Americans’ Credit Cards in Real Time

 - UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!    
Author Topic: Feds Warrantlessly Tracking Americans’ Credit Cards in Real Time
philnotfil
Member
Member # 1881

 - posted      Profile for philnotfil     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Same old, same old.

wired.com

quote:
Federal law enforcement agencies have been tracking Americans in real-time using credit cards, loyalty cards and travel reservations without getting a court order, a new document released under a government sunshine request shows.

The document, obtained by security researcher Christopher Soghoian, explains how so-called “Hotwatch” orders allow for real-time tracking of individuals in a criminal investigation via credit card companies, rental car agencies, calling cards, and even grocery store loyalty programs. The revelation sheds a little more light on the Justice Department’s increasing power and willingness to surveil Americans with little to no judicial or Congressional oversight.

For credit cards, agents can get real-time information on a person’s purchases by writing their own subpoena, followed up by a order from a judge that the surveillance not be disclosed. Agents can also go the traditional route — going to a judge, proving probable cause and getting a search warrant — which means the target will eventually be notified they were spied on.

quote:
Every year, the Justice Department does have to report to Congress the numbers of criminal and national security wiretaps undertaken, as well as the number of National Security Letters issued. Tens of thousands of NSLs are issued yearly — most with gag orders that forbid ISPs or librarians from ever saying they have ever been served with such a subpoena.

But the Justice Department does not report or make public the number of times it got real time or historic cell phone location information, nor how often it is using these so-called “hotwatch” orders.


Posts: 3719 | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
cb
Member
Member # 6179

 - posted      Profile for cb   Email cb       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I hope all the progressives who protested so vehemently against Bush's abuse of civil rights with wire tapping are honest enough to be even more upset with Obama's administrations continuation and expansion of such practices when he campaigned on a promise to vanquish them.

[ December 04, 2010, 02:58 AM: Message edited by: cb ]

Posts: 347 | Registered: Aug 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Mucus
Member
Member # 6573

 - posted      Profile for Mucus   Email Mucus       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
You frakking bet
http://www.hatrack.com/cgi-bin/ubbmain/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=057733;p=0&r=nfx#000004

[ December 04, 2010, 03:05 AM: Message edited by: Mucus ]

Posts: 57 | Registered: Apr 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
RickyB
Member
Member # 1464

 - posted      Profile for RickyB   Email RickyB   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"I hope all the progressives who protested so vehemently against Bush's abuse of civil rights with wire tapping are honest enough to be even more upset with Obama's administrations continuation and expansion of such practices when he campaigned on a promise to vanquish them."

I'm on record saying I won't vote for him again for that very reason. The man is a shameless, reprehensible traitor to the constitution.

Posts: 19145 | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pete at Home
Member
Member # 429

 - posted      Profile for Pete at Home   Email Pete at Home   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by cb:
I hope all the progressives who protested so vehemently against Bush's abuse of civil rights with wire tapping are honest enough to be even more upset with Obama's administrations continuation and expansion of such practices when he campaigned on a promise to vanquish them.

Ricky, TomD, and a number of other "progressives who protested vehemently against Bush's etc" have repeatedly and vehemently stated exactly that.

It doesn't mean that they won't defend Obama on other issues where they happen to agree with him. Hell, I do that too, and I didn't vote for Obama.

Posts: 44193 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
G2
unregistered


 - posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by RickyB:

I'm on record saying I won't vote for him again for that very reason. The man is a shameless, reprehensible traitor to the constitution.

I keep seeing guys like you and Tom saying this. I think you're not being honest with yourself here. It's a 2 party system, it's either Obama or whoever is from the Republican side .... it really might be Sarah Palin. If she gets it, you guys really think you're gonna sit out and throw your vote away to a third party and give Palin a chance? Welcome to the Monkey House, Nancy. [Wink]
IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TomDavidson
Member
Member # 99

 - posted      Profile for TomDavidson   Email TomDavidson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I am more principled than you are.
Posts: 22935 | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
G2
unregistered


 - posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
I am more principled than you are.

I *like to think* I am more principled than you are.

There, fixed that for ya. [Razz]

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TomDavidson
Member
Member # 99

 - posted      Profile for TomDavidson   Email TomDavidson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
No, I'm pretty sure you do like to think you're more principled than I am. This has no bearing on my own statement, however. *grin*
Posts: 22935 | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Chael
Member
Member # 2436

 - posted      Profile for Chael   Email Chael   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
*shrugs* I don't know about them, but I can and have voted third-party in big races (for example, state governor this year). My choice may lose, but at least I've cast a vote for who I really think is the best candidate for the job.

If a candidate is doing things which I think are downright harmful to the country, I'm not going to vote for him, even if the opposition is as bad or worse. We have more than two choices. There's also, of course, the party primary--a sitting president might be the favored contender, but winning the nomination is not guaranteed.

I'm sure I'm not the /only/ person out there who thinks this way.

Posts: 872 | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
philnotfil
Member
Member # 1881

 - posted      Profile for philnotfil     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by G2:
you guys really think you're gonna sit out and throw your vote away to a third party and give Palin a chance?

I wonder if G2 realizes that this is exactly what the Republicans and Democrats want him to say?

As long as the majority of Americans believe that voting third party is throwing away your vote, either the Republicans or the Democrats will be in power, and that is just the way they like it.

Have you ever noticed that you never see polls asking if their vote was for the candidate they selected or against the candidate they didn't select? I ran a small (n=34) survey of a politically representative sample (although being an online poll the average education and income was higher than average), and about 80% of the votes cast were against a candidate rather than for a candidate. I would love to have the resources to replicate this in a truly representative way, but isn't that interesting that a vast majority of the people who claimed that they voted, voted against another candidate rather than for a candidate? Imagine if those 80% of voters didn't believe that voting third party was throwing away their vote?

Posts: 3719 | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
G2
unregistered


 - posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by philnotfil:
quote:
Originally posted by G2:
you guys really think you're gonna sit out and throw your vote away to a third party and give Palin a chance?

I wonder if G2 realizes that this is exactly what the Republicans and Democrats want him to say?

As long as the majority of Americans believe that voting third party is throwing away your vote, either the Republicans or the Democrats will be in power, and that is just the way they like it.

Yeah, I'm just a mouthpiece for the establishment! [Roll Eyes]

Look, this is the reality in modern political America. It's a two party system (actually more like a 1.25 to 1.5 party system) and the most any third party can hope for is to split the vote for the candidate that most closely resembles the third party. I'm not saying because anyone wants me to, I'm saying it because that's the way the game is rigged. The money, the power structure, the gerrymandering, the back room deal brokering, it's as deeply entrenched as third world corruption in the most backwater country you can name.

The only way any of us will have a vote that matters is in the primary. Now these guys may not vote for Obama in the primary and try to effect change by getting Hillary or someone else at the top of the ticket but when we get to the general election it's vote Obama or give the advantage to the Republican nominee.

If you want to change the system, first you have to change the system. That's the lesson the Tea Party learned and applied effectively.

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TomDavidson
Member
Member # 99

 - posted      Profile for TomDavidson   Email TomDavidson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Heh. Anyone here genuinely think the "Tea Party" leadership actually wants to change the system?
Posts: 22935 | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
philnotfil
Member
Member # 1881

 - posted      Profile for philnotfil     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by G2:
quote:
Originally posted by philnotfil:
[qb]
quote:
Originally posted by G2:
you guys really think you're gonna sit out and throw your vote away to a third party and give Palin a chance?

I wonder if G2 realizes that this is exactly what the Republicans and Democrats want him to say?

As long as the majority of Americans believe that voting third party is throwing away your vote, either the Republicans or the Democrats will be in power, and that is just the way they like it.

Yeah, I'm just a mouthpiece for the establishment! [Roll Eyes]
Which is why it is so odd to see you saying exactly what they want you to say.
Posts: 3719 | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
G2
unregistered


 - posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
Heh. Anyone here genuinely think the "Tea Party" leadership actually wants to change the system?

I think they do, that's why there's all the extraordinary anger and fear of them during the last election. They want to, will they once they get their turn at the trough is the question. History says they'll become part of the system.

quote:
Originally posted by philnotfil:
Which is why it is so odd to see you saying exactly what they want you to say.

Sometimes what "da man" wants you to say is actually the truth. [Wink]
IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
drewmie
Member
Member # 1179

 - posted      Profile for drewmie   Email drewmie   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
G2, I agree that the Tea Party will just "become part of the system." Why? Because their priority is taxes. Actual fiscal responsibility is already taking a back seat, as we can see from the Republicans' willingness to give tax breaks to the richest Americans and pile it on the debt owed by our children and grandchildren. Like both major parties, they're simply a group of self-serving opportunists who care little for what their demands will cost the next few generations.

Republican, Democrat, Tea Party, etc. — their common mantra is "give me my stuff and bill my kids."

P.S.- On the subject of this thread, I'm with those who voted for Obama but will not do it again if he doesn't shut down these unconstitutional, warrantless programs.

[ December 10, 2010, 01:39 PM: Message edited by: drewmie ]

Posts: 3702 | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
JoshuaD
Member
Member # 1420

 - posted      Profile for JoshuaD   Email JoshuaD   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by drewmie:

P.S.- On the subject of this thread, I'm with those who voted for Obama but will not do it again if he doesn't shut down these unconstitutional, warrantless programs.

Likely translation: I'm going to vote for President Obama in 2012 despite the fact that he has been a huge disappointment because I'm going to buy into the demonization of whoever they run against him.
Posts: 3742 | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
drewmie
Member
Member # 1179

 - posted      Profile for drewmie   Email drewmie   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
While it may make you feel superior to think that, it isn't remotely accurate. I find the ideological bases of both parties to be completely out of touch with reality. As such, all the finger-pointing is just hypocrisy to me.

For example, the Republicans and their Tea Party have no credibility on constitutional issues or fiscal responsibility. Of course, their idiots who began hyperventilating about such things when Obama took power conveniently forgot about what they'd been doing for the last eight years.

Similarly, the Democrats have little to say on civil rights, since Obama (among other things) has still refused to shut down programs that fly in the face of the Constitution.

Party loyalists are simply hypocrites who want to feel superior. And as long as both parties continue to dupe their goose-stepping, hypocritical loyalists, they can continue with the current system that keeps political power between the two of them. It's the one thing they have in common, as evidenced by they way they've set up congressional rules to marginalize any moderate, non-partisan voices. To them, it's better to give power to the two extremes than allow a system where their extremist rhetoric has little effect on politics or policy.

Posts: 3702 | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
The Drake
Member
Member # 2128

 - posted      Profile for The Drake   Email The Drake   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
One shouldn't ignore the most common response for an electorate who becomes disillusioned with "their" party's candidate. They simply don't vote. This typically gets reported as poor turnout. That's a wasted vote, and yet unpopular incumbents see this all the time. Obama's previous supporters won't vote for Palin, but that doesn't mean they will vote for him.
Posts: 7707 | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
The Drake
Member
Member # 2128

 - posted      Profile for The Drake   Email The Drake   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
As for the tracking in real time, I don't know what I'm more bothered by - that they're doing it, or that I almost expected it and that I'm not doing something about it.
Posts: 7707 | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
   

Quick Reply
Message:

HTML is not enabled.
UBB Code™ is enabled.
UBB Code™ Images not permitted.
Instant Graemlins
   


Post New Topic  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | Ornery.org Front Page

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.7.1