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Author Topic: The Mayor Who Stole Christmas
RickyB
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There's this town in Israel called Nazareth Illit (Upper Nazareth). It was built high up in the Nazareth mountains to maximum topographical advantage over the neighboring Arab city of Nazareth - you know, where my homey J-Dawg grew up. (Happy B-day, J!).

Now, since the State of Israel, from the day of its founding, has not built a single new settlement or even new suburb for Arabs (as compared to hundreds for Jews), and since the government makes no zoning plans for Arab towns and villages, which makes virtually all construction in them illegal, Arabs are forced to either crowd with the folks, build illegally, or try to find housing in Jewish-majority towns. This is how it came to be that 15-20% of the residents of UPPER Nazareth are, ya know... Arabs.

So, the Arabs wanted the city to give them permission to out up a Christmas tree in the square in their neighborhood. The mayor, a Mr. Shimon Gapso, decided to audition for the role of the Grinch and refused, saying "This is a Jewish city! Let them go to Nazareth and do whatever they want there!"

I'm sure there will be those here who justify his actions, but for those of you who would be up in arms (or at least quietly disgusted) if the Jews of Boro Park were denied the right to put up a Hanukkah menorah, keep your fellow believers in mind this holiday season. No, their plight isn't nearly as grim as that of Christians in Iraq (who had to cancel all Christmas celebrations altogether for fear of al-Qaeda attacks, thanks Cheney!), but are nonetheless being treated as undesirables in the land where they can claim a longer ancestral presence then about 90% of the population.

Merry Christmas.

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rightleft22
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Marry Christmas and a good war to all
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Viking_Longship
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Ricky I wonder what all the "Christian Zionists" would think about it? (Once the acknowledged Arab Christians exist.)
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RickyB
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They won't give a good gotdamn, cause they don't love Israel because they think it's so awesome - they love it as a vehicle for hastening the second coming, so this is right on track.

And for you, droog, merry Christmas in... what is it, 12 days from now? [Smile]

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Viking_Longship
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Thanks,

It would be if I was in Russia. Back in the states we use the Gregorian calendar so it's the same time as everybody else. This is not true for all Orthodox in States, some use Julian.

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RickyB
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So double Merry Christmas! Have some yummy ham for me [Smile]
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Viking_Longship
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My sister was given two seperate hams for Christmas so we have about 20 pounds of ham for 9 prople. So even though I hate ham (yummy ham is an oxymoron to me) it looks like I will. [Razz]
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RickyB
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Dude! Maybe your sister doesn't know how to make it? [Big Grin]
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Pete at Home
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I'm relatively friendly to Israel, but this is disgusting. Is this in the West Bank?
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RickyB
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Nope. Sovereign Israel proper. Right above the original Nazareth. Arabs aren't allowed to live in any Jewish settlement whatsoever in the occupied territories. The can only *enter* settlements with a permit.
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RickyB
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Update: In a turn of events that can only be filed under "Karma is a beeyatch", Mayor Gapso, AKA Mayor Grinch, was arrested today on suspicion of taking bribes. Happy New Year, motherfocker! [Big Grin]
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starLisa
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quote:
Originally posted by RickyB:
Nope. Sovereign Israel proper. Right above the original Nazareth. Arabs aren't allowed to live in any Jewish settlement whatsoever in the occupied territories. The can only *enter* settlements with a permit.

Of course, Jews can only enter Arab towns if they have a death wish.
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RickyB
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"Of course, Jews can only enter Arab towns if they have a death wish."

Utter poppycock. I shop in Faradis and Umm al-Fahm all the time. Great prices, fine produce. Great seafood in Faradis. [Smile] And just to make it clear - my people come from Eastern Europe and I look it... (in other words, nobody there mistakes me and my broken Arabic for a local there for even one second.)

I do understand why it's so convenient to believe this (justifies the whole victim armageddon worldview), but it just ain't so. I will grant you this - when you walk in demonstratively, waving the flag of hate and ethnic cleansing, yes, you will encounter hostility. But just to enter? As a private person going about her or his business? Perfectly safe. I know Jewish people who even shop in Jasr a-Zarqa, and that's a miserable place with sky-high crime rates.

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Viking_Longship
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quote:
Originally posted by starLisa:
quote:
Originally posted by RickyB:
Nope. Sovereign Israel proper. Right above the original Nazareth. Arabs aren't allowed to live in any Jewish settlement whatsoever in the occupied territories. The can only *enter* settlements with a permit.

Of course, Jews can only enter Arab towns if they have a death wish.
Lisa do you approve historically of segregation in the American South?
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RickyB
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Southern whites don't have god's permission to be racist, though. Doncha get it? [Razz]
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maniacal_engineer
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So, when Jews don't let Christians put up a tree in Israel, that is the Jew's fault, but when muslims kill Christians in Iraq that is Cheney's fault? Why is it not ... i dunno... MUSLIM's fault?
The mayor sounds very petty and I am not sorry for his karmic payback, but I would still rather be an Arab in Israel than a Jew anywhere else in the middle east. Heck, I think I would rather be an Arab in Israel than be an ARAB most anywhere else in the middle east. [Wink]

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RickyB
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maniacal - fair point. Of course it's the Muslim's fault if he slaughters anyone, but the point still stands that Cheney needlessly kicked the hornet's nest.

As for an Arab in Israel over a Jew in the ME - yes, agreed. An Arab in Israel over an Arab elsewhere - quite a bit less so. An Arab can live pretty damn well in both Jordan and Lebanon, let alone in the Gulf states (I mean the various emirates, Qatar, Dubai and the like, more than SA) , without being discriminated against and being subject to increasing hate and marginalization.

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Viking_Longship
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I'd rather be an Arab in the United States than anywhere in the world.

Maniacal bear in mind that conditions for an Arab in Israel proper and conditions in the occupied territories might be a tad different.

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RickyB
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"Maniacal bear in mind that conditions for an Arab in Israel proper and conditions in the occupied territories might be a tad different."

Oh no doubt. Didn't even bother to mention that.

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Hannibal
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I think Lisa meant that Israelis who enter Arab towns in the west bank have a death wish.

(Ricky, please dont brink a nuance example to refute this claim coz its not important)


The Mayor is no doubtly extremely stupid, he was even interviewed on national radio and said that this is what he thinks, this was his ticket in the ellections and if the people will want to replace him they can vote for someone else.

A sad reflection on the deterioration of sociaty here.


Not only that, but instead of declaring one of the squares in Nazereth as the "Square of Peace" or the "Square of Openess" and uphold all religion ceremonies of all religions in Israel, a solution that would have acredited him on the one hand and limit/formalize religious events that the mayor might want to be limited on the other, all that the mayor has done was to antagonize and escalate the situation.

He cant, after all, prevent private people from doing (and putting) whatever they want in their private properties, these people will probably take it to the extreme to display the religious symbols that the mayor is so "against"

All in all... a seriosly demented person.

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RickyB
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"I think Lisa meant that Israelis who enter Arab towns in the west bank have a death wish.

(Ricky, please dont brink a nuance example to refute this claim coz its not important)"

Why isn't it important? Again: I know Israeli people who visit towns and villages in the WB all the time. The WB is of course different, but we're not talking about the WB, for the simple reason that in the WB, Arabs can't even enter a Jewish settlement without a written permit and can't live there at all. When you oppress people every day, ruin their wells, raid them at 3 in the morning to arrest 14 year olds who at worst threw some rocks... Yeah, big surprise they wouldn't be terribly welcoming.

But again, we were talking specifically about Israel proper. However, I respect your position on this.

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starLisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Viking_Longship:
quote:
Originally posted by starLisa:
quote:
Originally posted by RickyB:
Nope. Sovereign Israel proper. Right above the original Nazareth. Arabs aren't allowed to live in any Jewish settlement whatsoever in the occupied territories. The can only *enter* settlements with a permit.

Of course, Jews can only enter Arab towns if they have a death wish.
Lisa do you approve historically of segregation in the American South?
No. But then, the US wasn't explicitly founded as a white homeland after millenia of people crapping on white folks. It's a bit different.
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RickyB
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"No. But then, the US wasn't explicitly founded as a white homeland after millenia of people crapping on white folks. It's a bit different. "

Ah, so because it was done to us, it's ok to now do it to other. Ah, Jewish morality at its finest.

Besides, yes, it was. It's in the constitution, where 1 black person = 3/5 of a white person. The US was founded explicitly as a white country. Then it found the courage to change.

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Viking_Longship
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quote:
Originally posted by starLisa:
quote:
Originally posted by Viking_Longship:
quote:
Originally posted by starLisa:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by RickyB:
Nope. Sovereign Israel proper. Right above the original Nazareth. Arabs aren't allowed to live in any Jewish settlement whatsoever in the occupied territories. The can only *enter* settlements with a permit.

Of course, Jews can only enter Arab towns if they have a death wish.
Lisa do you approve historically of segregation in the American South?
No. But then, the US wasn't explicitly founded as a white homeland after millenia of people crapping on white folks. It's a bit different. [/QUOTE

How is that different?

Lisa do you think gentiles are inferior to jews globally, or just in Israel?

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starLisa
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quote:
Originally posted by RickyB:
"No. But then, the US wasn't explicitly founded as a white homeland after millenia of people crapping on white folks. It's a bit different. "

Ah, so because it was done to us, it's ok to now do it to other. Ah, Jewish morality at its finest.

Besides, yes, it was. It's in the constitution, where 1 black person = 3/5 of a white person. The US was founded explicitly as a white country. Then it found the courage to change.

Do your homework, Ricky. While the vast majority of slaves in the US were black, not all were. The Constitution didn't say anything about black or white.

And that isn't my point. Look, I know some people think that the goal is one global nation with everyone under the same exact laws and everyone free to go wherever they want. I don't think that's a goal worth striving for.

I don't object to the American ideal. For America. It was created for a purpose, and that purpose is a noble one. It isn't the only noble one, however. The fact that you don't believe God (a) gave us the land of Israel and (b) commanded us as a group to live there doesn't mean that He didn't. It just means you don't believe it. Israel is for the Jews. Damn, people. We're talking about a tiny sliver of land in the middle east. The Vatican is a Catholic state. There are Christian and Muslim states all the hell over the place. But one frakking plot of land that's specifically for Jews is cause for an uproar. It's kind of disgusting.

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starLisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Viking_Longship:
quote:
Originally posted by starLisa:
quote:
Originally posted by Viking_Longship:
quote:
Originally posted by starLisa:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by RickyB:
Nope. Sovereign Israel proper. Right above the original Nazareth. Arabs aren't allowed to live in any Jewish settlement whatsoever in the occupied territories. The can only *enter* settlements with a permit.

Of course, Jews can only enter Arab towns if they have a death wish.
Lisa do you approve historically of segregation in the American South?
No. But then, the US wasn't explicitly founded as a white homeland after millenia of people crapping on white folks. It's a bit different. [/QUOTE

How is that different?

Lisa do you think gentiles are inferior to jews globally, or just in Israel?

I forget... is it true that you stopped beating your wife?
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Viking_Longship
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Wow Lisa, what an impressive response from a person who thinks that the world is supposed to be looking to Jews for spiritual guidence. Up there with your thoughtful words to Mostafa regarding the prophet and sheep.


Answer my question, are gentiles less human than jews or not?

quote:
The fact that you don't believe God (a) gave us the land of Israel and (b) commanded us as a group to live there doesn't mean that He didn't. It just means you don't believe it. Israel is for the Jews. Damn, people. We're talking about a tiny sliver of land in the middle east. The Vatican is a Catholic state. There are Christian and Muslim states all the hell over the place. But one frakking plot of land that's specifically for Jews is cause for an uproar. It's kind of disgusting.
Where on Earth is there an explicitly Christian nation other than the tiny little speck of Rome set aside for the Vatican?

As for the explicitly Muslim nations, is that really the model you want?

[ December 28, 2010, 10:08 PM: Message edited by: Viking_Longship ]

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starLisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Viking_Longship:
Wow Lisa, what an impressive response from a person who thinks that the world is supposed to be looking to Jews for spiritual guidence. Up there with your thoughtful words to Mostafa regarding the prophet and sheep.

Answer my question, are gentiles less human than jews or not?

Absolutely not. It's a ridiculous notion, and one which I didn't even want to dignify with an answer. But since you insist on one, then no, they are not.
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Viking_Longship
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quote:
Originally posted by starLisa:
quote:
Originally posted by Viking_Longship:
Wow Lisa, what an impressive response from a person who thinks that the world is supposed to be looking to Jews for spiritual guidence. Up there with your thoughtful words to Mostafa regarding the prophet and sheep.

Answer my question, are gentiles less human than jews or not?

Absolutely not. It's a ridiculous notion, and one which I didn't even want to dignify with an answer. But since you insist on one, then no, they are not.
So you thought accusing me of being a wife beater was a better response? And of course I wanted that answer to that question, it's a vital question particularly in your country.

[ December 28, 2010, 10:11 PM: Message edited by: Viking_Longship ]

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Viking_Longship
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Oh and Lisa just because you don't believe that God didn't reject the Jews for murdering his only Son doesn't mean he didn't. You really want to go down the "because God said so" path?

[ December 28, 2010, 10:18 PM: Message edited by: Viking_Longship ]

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RickyB
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"Absolutely not. It's a ridiculous notion, and one which I didn't even want to dignify with an answer. But since you insist on one, then no, they are not. "

Truthiness alert:

"The graves of foreigners do not render one unclean [...] You are called human and they are not called human".
(Babylonian Talumd, Yebamot tractate, 61:1)

So as we see, the text that Lisa accepts without reservation does indeed state that gentiles are inherently less human than Jews.

"The fact that you don't believe God (a) gave us the land of Israel and (b) commanded us as a group to live there doesn't mean that He didn't. It just means you don't believe it. Israel is for the Jews. Damn, people. We're talking about a tiny sliver of land in the middle east. The Vatican is a Catholic state. There are Christian and Muslim states all the hell over the place. But one frakking plot of land that's specifically for Jews is cause for an uproar. It's kind of disgusting. "

Even if I did believe in your sky daddy, nothing you said means the land is EXCLUSIVELY for Jews. "One law shall be onto you and the resident within you." I can find quotes to back up my position too. Those believing Jews who nevertheless want to be human as well do so. But then again, Maimonides already taught us that it's all about when "The hand of Israel is Strong" vs. "when it is weak".

Viking - the "did you stop beating your wife" is a famous rhetorical tool, as I'm sure you're aware. She wasn't really accusing you of anything, except of a false dichotomy argument (false in her view).

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Hannibal
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Lisa

"There are Christian and Muslim states all the hell over the place. But one frakking plot of land that's specifically for Jews is cause for an uproar. It's kind of disgusting."

Viking's and Riki's answers aside, your argument is exagerated and misleading.

Tel Aviv is not the cause of the uproar, the 1967 borders are also not a cause for an uproar.

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RickyB
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"Tel Aviv is not the cause of the uproar, the 1967 borders are also not a cause for an uproar."

Well to be perfectly honest, there are some, including some I consider friends, who don't accept those either, but for practical purposes and the discussion here, you are of course correct.

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starLisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Viking_Longship:
Oh and Lisa just because you don't believe that God didn't reject the Jews for murdering his only Son doesn't mean he didn't. You really want to go down the "because God said so" path?

I'm happy to, if you like. Jesus probably didn't exist, but was rather an amalgam of a number of false messianic characters who lived over the course of a couple of centuries. If he did exist, then based on the way he's described in the Christian books, he was a bad Jew with delusions. His reputed ancestor King David was probably referring to him in the beginning of Psalms 146.
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starLisa
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quote:
Originally posted by RickyB:
"Absolutely not. It's a ridiculous notion, and one which I didn't even want to dignify with an answer. But since you insist on one, then no, they are not. "

Truthiness alert:

"The graves of foreigners do not render one unclean [...] You are called human and they are not called human".
(Babylonian Talumd, Yebamot tractate, 61:1)

"Adam", particularly in that context, does not equate to "human". Of course, if you want to use bad translations, you can pretty much "prove" anything.

quote:
Originally posted by RickyB:
So as we see, the text that Lisa accepts without reservation does indeed state that gentiles are inherently less human than Jews.

No. The RickyB mistranslation of that text does.

quote:
Originally posted by RickyB:
Even if I did believe in your sky daddy, nothing you said means the land is EXCLUSIVELY for Jews. "One law shall be onto you and the resident within you."

Another mistranslation.

quote:
Originally posted by RickyB:
Viking - the "did you stop beating your wife" is a famous rhetorical tool, as I'm sure you're aware. She wasn't really accusing you of anything, except of a false dichotomy argument (false in her view).

QFT
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starLisa
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"Lisa do you think gentiles are inferior to jews globally, or just in Israel?"

This is set up so that either of the two options presented sucks. Since neither is true, presenting it as an either-or is dishonest.

"I forget... is it true that you stopped beating your wife?"

This is the same kind of thing. If you say "yes", it implies that you were beating her. If you say "no", it implies that you still are. The only correct answer is "neither".

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RickyB
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"No. The RickyB mistranslation of that text does."

Really now? How would you translate it? The text is pretty clear.

""Adam", particularly in that context, does not equate to "human". "

Really? What does it mean, then? Adam does in fact mean "man", "person". as in "mankind". i.e. "human". The passage alludes to a definite, qualitative, meta-physical difference between Jews and non-Jews, so much so that the difference persists even in death. If you want to lie about how this is read among your kind of Jews, you're gonna have to something about all those pesky honors yeshiva students who find their way to the side of light and spill the beans... I have a couple such friends, in addition to my own knowledge.

"Another mistranslation."

On the second one there's actually room for debate, since "Ger" can be read as "convert" rather than "foreign resident", although that kinda renders the whole "for you were a "ger" in the land of Egypt" thing kinda non-sequitorial. Of course that reading only reinforces the claim that Judaism is inherently biased and that Orthodox Jewish rule inherently entails discrimination against non-Jews. Thanks for making that point. [Big Grin]

[ December 29, 2010, 09:57 AM: Message edited by: RickyB ]

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Viking_Longship
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Ricky, Lisa, no I was not aware of that rhetorical trick. I just thought it was an ad hominem from out of left field.

Lisa with all due respect you've already established you thnk that Jews within Israel should have a higher status than gentiles. The question is whether you believe that Jews in general should be subject to a different, perhaps more leniant set of rules. Therefore gentile nations would be out of line being critical of Israel's treatment of non-jews in the same way that were critical of South Africa's treatment of blacks.

What's the point of attacking Jesus? I don't care what you say about him. If you start trotting out the religous arguments for Israel's existance I can start trotting out religous arguments for why it shouldn't exist. I don't even have to go out of the Torah. There were enough caveats within the Covenant to justify the expulsion of the Jews.


But here's the verse you need to hope the Christian Zionists never focus on Mark 12 1-9


quote:
1And He began to speak to them in parables: “A man PLANTED A VINEYARD AND PUT A WALL AROUND IT, AND DUG A VAT UNDER THE WINE PRESS AND BUILT A TOWER, and rented it out to vine-growers and went on a journey. 2“At the harvest time he sent a slave to the vine-growers, in order to receive some of the produce of the vineyard from the vine-growers. 3“They took him, and beat him and sent him away empty-handed. 4“Again he sent them another slave, and they wounded him in the head, and treated him shamefully. 5“And he sent another, and that one they killed; and so with many others, beating some and killing others. 6“He had one more to send, a beloved son; he sent him last of all to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ 7“But those vine-growers said to one another, ‘This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and the inheritance will be ours!’ 8“They took him, and killed him and threw him out of the vineyard. 9“What will the owner of the vineyard do? He will come and destroy the vine-growers, and will give the vineyard to others.
Now you can say "What's that matter? The New Testament isn't real." But at this point what proof do you have that the Old Testament is any more authorative? What proof do you have that the commands of the Flying Spaghetti Monster don't have more authority? It's like Mostafa arguing based on the Koran.

[ December 29, 2010, 11:34 AM: Message edited by: Viking_Longship ]

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RickyB
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And right on cue, the top rabid rabbi in the occupied territories, Dov Lior of Qiryat Arba (that's the settlement built specifically as a thorn in Hebron's throat, where mass murderer Baruch Goldstein lived and is still revered as a hero, as he is by our own Lisa) ruled last week (just published today), that even is a Jewish woman's only way to conceive would be to accept a sperm donation from a non-Jew, she must not do it because the sperm would carry negative traits. Let us go to the quote:

"The characteristics of the father pass on to the son, and if this father is non-Jewish, what characteristics can he have? Those of cruelty! Barbarism! These are not traits characteristic of the House of Israel.

"A person born to a Jewish mother and father, even if they were not fortunate enough to receive a Torah-based education - there are things that pass in the blood. It's genetics. If the father is a goy (gentile), then the child lacks these things... I also read in books that sometimes the crime, the severe characteristics, the resentment... A child who comes from such traits - no wonder he doesn't have the characteristics typical of the Jewish People."

Link: http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-4006306,00.html

Still no English version, but it may go up later. Check periodically for a "Read this article in English" at the bottom.

This, again, is one the foremost rulers on religious law among Lisa's fellow travelers (and btw, he based his reasoning on the very same Talmudic tractate I quoted above. Still wanna argue about the racist implication of this tractate, Lisa?)

Once again: Orthodox Judaism is inherently racist, viewing as it does Jews as inherently superior to gentiles.

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RickyB
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"What proof do you have that the commands of the Flying Spaghetti Monster don't have more authority?"

Beware his noodly appendage!

As to the rhetorical trick - it's used to dismiss yes/no propositions, as I'm sure you've grokked by now.

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