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I been stuck watching FOX this afternoon and my brain is ready to implode.
I just got through watching Bob Beckel tell me how offended his is, as a Christian, about the idea that God might assist an athlete during a sporting event, because God doesn't take sides during a football playoff game.
Can somebody please tell me why the hell not? Does God, if he exists, and is imminent (takes a hand) in the universe, have some sort of set of rules on what he can interfere with or not? Like God only cares about who wins wars, or who gets elected or some cac. Like God could not possibly be speaking to Joan of Arc, because that would mean God supported France over England.
Really, why not? Certainly there are plenty of people who pray to God before, during, and after a sporting event.
And why is it okay that Manny Ramirez and David Ortiz point to heaven every time they hit a homerun (or is it not ok, I just never heard any criticism pointed their way), and it's okay for Eric Liddell to talk about God after a track meet, but it's not okay for Tim frickin Teebow to take a knee after a touchdown.
I remember taking a knee and saying a group prayer before every Cross Country race. We could do that. Now I don't know if God every really helped me, or ever really cared how I ran, but I know it sure as hell didn't hurt. I never won any races, but if I did, I'd probably thank God for making me fast. I don't care if he actually didn't have any hand in it or not, I know it's not going to hurt to say thanks.
By the way. I bet all those Denver fans believe that God is a Broncos fan. Personally, I think they're wrong cause it's obvious that God is a Saints fan.
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quote: Now I don't know if God every really helped me, or ever really cared how I ran, but I know it sure as hell didn't hurt. I never won any races, but if I did, I'd probably thank God for making me fast.
How do you know it didn't hurt? Maybe you never won any races because God hated you.
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Well, if God really hated him, I think it probably would have been a bit worse than losing a Cross Country meet. Posts: 7241 | Registered: Dec 2000
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G2
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Pffft, God is a Cowboys fan. America is God's country (look it up) and the Cowboys are America's team (everyone knows that). Ergo propter hoc, the Dallas Cowboys are God's team. God works in mysterious ways; it's the only way to explain this season.
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: [QUOTE] How do you know it didn't hurt? Maybe you never won any races because God hated you.
If he did, or still does, then I still don't see how praying to him hurt, unless he didn't like my prayer.
By the way, if you admit that God has the power and interest to help me lose a race, you admit that he has the power and interest to help me win a race.
quote:Originally posted by G2: Pffft, God is a Cowboys fan. America is God's country (look it up) and the Cowboys are America's team (everyone knows that). Ergo propter hoc, the Dallas Cowboys are God's team.
You've just explained everything about yourself.
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quote:By the way, if you admit that God has the power and interest to help me lose a race, you admit that he has the power and interest to help me win a race.
Sure. But what happens when both teams pray equally hard for victory? Does God help the one with the most players who aren't rich douchenozzles, or the ones most likely to bring the most fans to the correct faith, or....?
*laugh* I always find this kind of thing ridiculously amusing. It's the sort of horribly small-minded perspective on the divine that's endemic in American culture, but has become so enculturated that it takes a bit of thought to even realize how strange it is.
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I reckon that God does whatever helps bring about his plans, and perhaps occasionally whatever tickles his fancy. Arrogance seems annoy him. That's why it's quite plausible that God did help the Brits at Agincourt and then turned around and helped Joan of Arc drive them out.
The purpose for prayer is to bring us closer to God's mind through communication with him. If God occasionally grants our petitions, it's to encourage us to keep praying. There's no science to it. God's not some mindless power to be invoked.
[ January 13, 2012, 10:41 PM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]
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quote:Originally posted by Pete at Home: I reckon that God does whatever helps bring about his plans, and perhaps occasionally whatever tickles his fancy.
I agree with this, I personally think God does influence the outcome of things like sports game - when that outcome is important to His bigger plans.
I generally ask directly for the things I think God wants also, i.e. help me to be good, help me to do my best, please let my kids be healthy. But on the "I don't know" things, like winning games or whether the weather will every let me continue working on my pilot's certificate , I tell Him what I want and ask Him to let it happen.
Of course, I'm a bit uncomfortable with the showy declarations of faith or gratitude - combination of personal preference, family culture, and religious tradition. Fine in a setting of family or religion, but inappropriate for the sidewalk or sports field.
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quote: Now I don't know if God every really helped me, or ever really cared how I ran, but I know it sure as hell didn't hurt. I never won any races, but if I did, I'd probably thank God for making me fast.
How do you know it didn't hurt? Maybe you never won any races because God hated you.
I was going to say (from experience) that if it didn't hurt I'm not surprised you lost those races
quote:By the way, if you admit that God has the power and interest to help me lose a race, you admit that he has the power and interest to help me win a race.
Sure. But what happens when both teams pray equally hard for victory? Does God help the one with the most players who aren't rich douchenozzles, or the ones most likely to bring the most fans to the correct faith, or....?
*laugh* I always find this kind of thing ridiculously amusing. It's the sort of horribly small-minded perspective on the divine that's endemic in American culture, but has become so enculturated that it takes a bit of thought to even realize how strange it is.
According to one website, 15 million children die of hunger every year. God needs to rearrange his priorities.
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quote: quote: Originally posted by G2: Pffft, God is a Cowboys fan. America is God's country (look it up) and the Cowboys are America's team (everyone knows that). Ergo propter hoc, the Dallas Cowboys are God's team.
Originally posted by Grant: You've just explained everything about yourself.
But what does that say about me? It may break the space-time continuum, but like G2 I also am a Dallas Cowboys fan - have been so since before Tom Landry was shuffling in Craig Morton and Roger Staubach on alternate plays during a game with the Chicago Bears in 1971. I have my autographed Roger Staubach photo, a football with all the autographs from the 1975 NFC Championship team, and I have watched or listened to every game available in my area for about at least the last 20 years.
quote:Originally posted by Grant: I been stuck watching FOX this afternoon and my brain is ready to implode.
I just got through watching Bob Beckel tell me how offended his is, as a Christian, about the idea that God might assist an athlete during a sporting event, because God doesn't take sides during a football playoff game.
Well you've got to admit that calling on god himself to bless your side in an athletic competition or thanking him for the win afterwards is a bit of a wank. I'm sure his ability to care is meant to be infinite and all, but he's presumably got bigger **** on his plate than the results of a professional sporting match. And any person of faith who's got even an ounce of compassion or humanity should ask themselves why, if they think they've got the power to get divine intercession, they're asking for something so banal and trivial. And the Tebows of the world take what's already a trivial and shallow thing and kick it up a notch by turning it into a pretentiously showy display of their trivial and shallow faith.
Seriously, the guys who trot out the old "I'd just like to thank our sponsors" cliche in post-game interviews come closer to giving credit where credit's due than the guys who thank God for their win.
EDIT: Also, if God even exists then I'd like to think he has the good taste to prefer rugby league anyway
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: Sure. But what happens when both teams pray equally hard for victory? Does God help the one with the most players who aren't rich douchenozzles, or the ones most likely to bring the most fans to the correct faith, or....?
I think God uses a formula. He takes 1000 -(5.765Rd + 9.75Aa) = THq. Rd being the number or rich douchnozzles, Aa being the number of arrogant atheists, and THq being the team holiness quotient. Whichever team has the highest holiness quotient gets the win.
It's quite possible that he doesn't help anybody at all, ever. Which means that Teebow ought to thank God for not taking sides in a football game.
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quote:Originally posted by TommySama: ]According to one website, 15 million children die of hunger every year. God needs to rearrange his priorities.
15 million, huh? Feel free to let him know his priorities are whacked. Or do you mean that Teebow is ridiculous if he thinks that God might give a damn about his football game if he's letting 15 million kids die every year?
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quote:Originally posted by Greg Davidson: But what does that say about me? It may break the space-time continuum, but like G2 I also am a Dallas Cowboys fan
Hey, Alec Baldwin is definately more eloquent and thoughtful then the average bomber fan from the Bronx, but he's still a Yankee fan.
PS: Ball breaking aside, my Dad was a Cowboy fan of the same vein. I think he lost interest after Jerry Jones bought the team.
quote:Originally posted by Grant: I been stuck watching FOX this afternoon and my brain is ready to implode.
I just got through watching Bob Beckel tell me how offended his is, as a Christian, about the idea that God might assist an athlete during a sporting event, because God doesn't take sides during a football playoff game.
Well you've got to admit that calling on god himself to bless your side in an athletic competition or thanking him for the win afterwards is a bit of a wank. I'm sure his ability to care is meant to be infinite and all, but he's presumably got bigger **** on his plate than the results of a professional sporting match. And any person of faith who's got even an ounce of compassion or humanity should ask themselves why, if they think they've got the power to get divine intercession, they're asking for something so banal and trivial. And the Tebows of the world take what's already a trivial and shallow thing and kick it up a notch by turning it into a pretentiously showy display of their trivial and shallow faith.
Seriously, the guys who trot out the old "I'd just like to thank our sponsors" cliche in post-game interviews come closer to giving credit where credit's due than the guys who thank God for their win.
EDIT: Also, if God even exists then I'd like to think he has the good taste to prefer rugby league anyway
You know, I honestly probably agree. I would definately say that asking god to help you win a football game would be somewhat presumptious. If that's all you ever ask for him to help with. If you ask him to help with everything, all the time, then at least you're being consistant. As far as I know, Teebow might actually ask for God's help every time he tries to start his car, or perform in bed.
All that being said, if he's got all these big important things on his plate all the time, I don't see why he should give a damn about me in the first place, ever. But you see, I honestly believe that's not true. I honestly believe that everyone is important to God. I got no facts to back that up, sorry, or any logic. It's just my faith.
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Look, if God presumably created the universe, which all of us poor deluded believers believe, then he's responsible for everything in it and everything that happens.
Thus, God is responsible if Tim Teebow throws a touchdown pass, and Tim Teebow is obliged to thank him, if he believes that he exists and is the creator.
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And if Teebow annoys enough people that God's net rating in the American football audience actually declines whenever the Broncos are mentioned, will God see that and will He say I am well pleased?
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quote:Originally posted by AI Wessex: And if Teebow annoys enough people that God's net rating in the American football audience actually declines whenever the Broncos are mentioned, will God see that and will He say I am well pleased?
LOL. I really don't know. I really don't think that Teebow has hurt Football's ratings yet.
I still don't see why what he does should annoy anybody. I know for a fact that David Ortiz pointing to heaven after hitting a homerun hasn't hurt the ratings of the Red Sox.
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Ah, but you don't know. Working in mysterious ways has some mystery.
FWIW, I'm not annoyed by Teebow and I'm not a Broncos fan. I don't have a favorite team at the moment, so I would describe myself as agnostic. That can make it a little uncomfortable if I walk into the wrong bar, but so be it.
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quote:Originally posted by AI Wessex: Ah, but you don't know. Working in mysterious ways has some mystery.
FWIW, I'm not annoyed by Teebow and I'm not a Broncos fan. I don't have a favorite team at the moment, so I would describe myself as agnostic. That can make it a little uncomfortable if I walk into the wrong bar, but so be it.
Hats off, and enjoy your beer.
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quote:Originally posted by Grant: I still don't see why what he does should annoy anybody.
Forgive me for being dense. I think I finally got it. Beyond the idea that God's involvement in a football game might be silly.
Let's say that the almighty does come down and touch Teebow's arm, and turns it into a weapon of divine glory and power. Subsequently the Broncos defeat the Patriots. Does that mean that God hates Bill Belechek (sp) or Tom Brady? Does god hate all Pats fans? I'm sure some of them might have prayed for victory too.
I'm sure when Teebow goes to his knee after throwing the winning touchdown in overtime, all the Pats fans will be saying to themselves "#^(% you, Tim Teebow, God had nothing to do with your victory", because it would imply that God chose the Broncos over the Pats, and they believe that is what Teebow is implying when he goes to his knee.
I really don't think that is exactly what Teebow is trying to convey when he goes to his knee, but the implication is there.
I don't know God's Will. I know there is pain and suffering in the world and that if he exists, he allows it. I don't believe he does it out of hate or jealousy. As Pyr is so fond of pointing out in his anti-"just world theory" posts, it rains on the just and the unjust alike. This is nothing new.
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Yes, that's curious. If God's plan covers all events, then it also covers interceptions and torn Achilles Tendons. Such occurrences call for a dispirited hosanna, but not all hosannas are rapturous.
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quote:Originally posted by AI Wessex: Yes, that's curious. If God's plan covers all events, then it also covers interceptions and torn Achilles Tendons. Such occurrences call for a dispirited hosanna, but not all hosannas are rapturous.
It goes both ways. It's entirely possible to be hipocritcal about it.
It's also entirely possible that God has nothing at all to do with anything, but since this would be God's choice, it is still his Will.
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Much as I'm at political odds with what the Tebow phenomenon represents, I gather he himself is a dude of many admirable qualities outside the gridiron as well, although any athlete that successful has to be a driven, somewhat self-centered person as well. I think the biggest knock on him would be not speaking out against the billboards, for which the *players* decided to fine him.
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quote:Let's say that the almighty does come down and touch Teebow's arm, and turns it into a weapon of divine glory and power. Subsequently the Broncos defeat the Patriots. Does that mean that God hates Bill Belechek (sp) or Tom Brady? Does god hate all Pats fans? I'm sure some of them might have prayed for victory too.
'Is it one prayer? No, it is two -- one uttered, and the other not. Both have reached the ear of Him who heareth all supplications, the spoken and the unspoken. If you would beseech a blessing upon yourself, beware! lest without intent you invoke a curse upon your neighbor at the same time. If you pray for the blessing of rain on your crop which needs it, by that act you are possibly praying for a curse on some neighbor's crop which may not need rain and can be injured by it. '
Game victories are effectively zero-sum situations -- where someone's win means someone else's defeat. It's one thing to pray for e.g. *nobody to be injured*, or for fair play to prevail, or for a good time to be had by all -- but to pray for victory means to pray for the other's team defeat.
quote: Sorry, what else does he do? Any worse then Eric Liddell?
I have no idea what Eric Liddell does, but comparing Tebow to Ortiz in terms of the religion they bring to the public sphere is, frankly, ridiculous. Starting at least while he was at florida, and possibly earlier, Tebow has publicly and explicitly made his religion a center point of who he is and the success he has had. There's so much crap on the net from the last few weeks about Tebow, that finding stuff from his earlier life is difficult these days, but the reason for all the crpa is not that he kneels down... its that Tebow makes public statements that go well beyond the typical "I think god for the ability that allows me to throw a football."
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quote: Sorry, what else does he do? Any worse then Eric Liddell?
I have no idea what Eric Liddell does, but comparing Tebow to Ortiz in terms of the religion they bring to the public sphere is, frankly, ridiculous. Starting at least while he was at florida, and possibly earlier, Tebow has publicly and explicitly made his religion a center point of who he is and the success he has had. There's so much crap on the net from the last few weeks about Tebow, that finding stuff from his earlier life is difficult these days, but the reason for all the crpa is not that he kneels down... its that Tebow makes public statements that go well beyond the typical "I think god for the ability that allows me to throw a football."
I know, he has the gall to actually live his beliefs and not just say the lines at the right time Posts: 3368 | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by PSRT: There's so much crap on the net from the last few weeks about Tebow, that finding stuff from his earlier life is difficult these days, but the reason for all the crpa is not that he kneels down... its that Tebow makes public statements that go well beyond the typical "I think god for the ability that allows me to throw a football."
Trust me when I say that you will probably not be a fan of Eric Liddell.
I don't know exactly which statements Tebow has made that you are referring to. Could you elaborate, please?
David Ortiz is most likely Catholic, while Tebow is Baptist. Baptists are a little more "in your face" then Catholics, but less so then say, Pentacostals. If David Ortiz does not meet the criteria for sufficient blurbage about the almighty, then perhaps Curt Schilling might be a better example. I know he's a big target for his out of game commentary, political and religious.
Edited: Though the comparision may not meet the criteria because I never knew Schilling to make any religious gestures on the diamond.
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"Baptists are a little more "in your face" then Catholics, but less so then say, Pentacostals."
And not even they are as much as atheists, who stubbornly stand there and do nothing to offer thanks or obeisance to God or any damn body else after TDs and everything else they do. Pricks.
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quote:Originally posted by AI Wessex: And not even they are as much as atheists, who stubbornly stand there and do nothing to offer thanks or obeisance to God or any damn body else after TDs and everything else they do. Pricks.
I seem to remember that the attacks were on Tim Tebow, not on atheists. I havn't heard anyone say anything critical of atheist behavior at football games. Certainly no player. Certainly no coach. Certainly no commentator. Am I missing somebody? Some raging Baptist Minister from Dahlongaha, Georgia?
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quote:Originally posted by Adam Masterman: Does Teebow pray when they lose?
Obviously when his side loses the problem isn't that his prayers have nothing to do with the outcome, it's that he mustn't have prayed hard enough Posts: 503 | Registered: Oct 2010
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But what happens when both teams pray equally hard for victory? Does God help the one with the most players who aren't rich douchenozzles, or the ones most likely to bring the most fans to the correct faith, or....? ![[Crying]](graemlins/crying.gif)
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