Ornery.org
  Front Page   |   About Ornery.org   |   World Watch   |   Guest Essays   |   Contact Us

The Ornery American Forum Post New Topic  Post A Reply
my profile login | register | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» The Ornery American Forum » General Comments » Liberals, Don't Homeschool Your Kids (Page 1)

 - UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!   This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2   
Author Topic: Liberals, Don't Homeschool Your Kids
philnotfil
Member
Member # 1881

 - posted      Profile for philnotfil     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Interesting insight into the liberal mind.

readersupportednews.org

quote:
Homeschooling is so unevenly regulated from state to state that it is impossible to know exactly how many homeschoolers there are. Estimates range from about 1 million to 2 million children, and the number is growing. It is unclear how many homeschooling families are secular, but the political scientist Rob Reich has written that there is little doubt the homeschooling population has diversified in recent years.* Yet whether liberal or conservative, "[o]ne article of faith unites all homeschoolers: that homeschooling should be unregulated," Reich writes. "Homeschoolers of all stripes believe that they alone should decide how their children are educated."

Could such a go-it-alone ideology ever be truly progressive - by which I mean, does homeschooling serve the interests not just of those who are doing it, but of society as a whole?

quote:
Nor can we allow homeschoolers to believe their choice impacts only their own offspring. Although the national school-reform debate is fixated on standardized testing and "teacher quality" - indeed, the uptick in secular homeschooling may be, in part, a backlash against this narrow education agenda - a growing body of research suggests "peer effects" have a large impact on student achievement. Low-income kids earn higher test scores when they attend school alongside middle-class kids, while the test scores of privileged children are impervious to the influence of less-privileged peers. So when college-educated parents pull their kids out of public schools, whether for private school or homeschooling, they make it harder for less-advantaged children to thrive.
quote:
Despite our conflicting perspectives, I agree with Taylor that school ought to be more engaging, more intellectually challenging, and less obsessed with testing. But government is the only institution with the power and scale to intervene in the massive undertaking of better educating American children, 90 percent of whom currently attend public schools. (And it's worth remembering that schools provide not just education, but basic child care while parents are at work.) Lefty homeschoolers might be preaching sound social values to their children, but they aren't practicing them. If progressives want to improve schools, we shouldn't empty them out. We ought to flood them with our kids, and then debate vociferously what they ought to be doing.
You can do that, I'm going to get my children the best education I can, even if it means that we have to live on one income for one of us to stay home with them.

The government is the only institution that can educate American children? Did they forget about the family? The most important learning institution in our lives, even when it is dysfunctional. How about we work on fixing families first?

And if we are aiming for equality, consider this: Socioeconomic status is the best single predictor of student success among public and private school students. Socioeconomic status is almost worthless as a predictor of student success among homeschoolers. That is equality in education.

Posts: 3382 | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
KidTokyo
Member
Member # 6601

 - posted      Profile for KidTokyo   Email KidTokyo       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I think this issue boils down to whether or not you think the state has a legitimate interest and/or claim upon what happens to your children. I think they do. Your children are not just "your children" -- they are independent beings with a fundamental human right to know and be familiar with the world outside of their family, and to be exposed to ways of thinking and being that are unlike your own. They aren't your property.

Left or Right, everyone I've known personally who is home-schooling their kids has some issue with seeing the school as an instrument of government domination. Which, of course, it is. Then again, the home is an instrument of family domination. I, for one, was very grateful for the ringing bells and the cinder-block halls, because they were filled with friends and cute girls I could trade mix tapes with. Hardly the gulag. Not to mention some really kind and smart teachers who held me to a much higher standard than my parents did.

How do you propose fixing broken families by keeping your kids home? Presumably, your family is not broken. How are you helping someone else whose family is?

Posts: 1641 | Registered: Sep 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pete at Home
Member
Member # 429

 - posted      Profile for Pete at Home   Email Pete at Home   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Ah.

So when Thing One gets stuck in a kindergarten with 40 kids and one teacher, and when Thing Three gets repeatedly choked in the bathroom by some 7 year old thug, we're supposed to keep sending them there, so that they can raise the quality of education for other kids? Because some study says they will be OK?

Those that stay and survive all the way to graduation, maybe.

Posts: 36697 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Chael
Member
Member # 2436

 - posted      Profile for Chael   Email Chael   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Some people say "yes, I want to take full responsibility for my child's primary education. And I can swing it financially, though it will mean we give some things up. So I'm going to." It really can be that simple; it doesn't have to be about religious or political inculcation, or about distrust of the government. So one parent stays home and raises the kid(s), both teach them, and eventually the kids either decide they want to try public school out, or they don't and continue homeschooling until college (this is what I did, aside from the music courses I took at the local community college as a teenager, which don't really count).

They find tutors for the subjects they don't know enough about to teach (often arranging swaps with other homeschooling parents with different knowledge subsets), they make sure their child is involved in extracurriculars with other children of all ages (the list of what I and my sister were involved in would exhaust any reasonable person), etc. Yes, this is a lot of work (the curriculum review alone is a timesink; as a teacher, I know!), but if the parents are willing and able to put in that time, what's the trouble?

Sure, some parents want to shield their children from the world and opposing mindsets. Other parents couldn't give a fig about their children and basically don't want to be bothered. Neither are good, and neither are the norm as far as I can tell, amongst the homeschoolers or the public schoolers. You'll get good experiences and hideous experiences either way. So far as I can tell, once we start down this discussion, we're traveling into the land of luck and anecdotes.

Posts: 864 | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
cherrypoptart
Member
Member # 3942

 - posted      Profile for cherrypoptart     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
We can talk about the greater societal ramifications of public schooling versus home schooling all day long but there is a more immediate issue at hand which Pete brought up.

Are public schools safe?

I can answer that question with a question.

Do you ever look at the news?

These are just a couple of stories in the last few days:


http://gma.yahoo.com/blogs/abc-blogs/11-old-girl-dies-fight-classmate-over-boy-213635438--abc-news.html

http://www1.whdh.com/news/articles/national/12006773052736/8-year-old-shot-at-school-clings-to-life/

BREMERTON, Wash. (NBC) -- An 8-year-old girl remains in critical condition after being shot in her elementary school classroom Wednesday.

Police say the 8-year-old girl was accidentally shot Wednesday afternoon at Armin Jahr Elementary School in Bremerton, Washington by another student.

----------------------------------------------

What kind of parent would send their children into an environment where they will be exposed to people using drugs, exposed to pedophiles masquerading as teachers and coaches, and exposed to violence and rape from their classmates?

These children are generally acknowledged not to be legally responsible for their actions with the "defense of infancy". But... they are not supervised at all times while with other children. Does that really make any sense?

So are those insisting on public schooling some kind of new Spartans?

In a way it's ironic because liberals generally are toughest when it comes to protecting children at home such as with gun safety, trampoline safety, pool safety, environmental safety. Safety, safety, safety. And that is good.

But then they advocate throwing the same children they protected at home into an environment filled with unnecessary danger. School. Drugs, sex (with STDs which condoms don’t protect against such as herpes, mono, and HPV), violence, gangs, pedophiles, and legally drugged up children who may or may not be taking their meds. This is madness.

Until a drug, violence, and pedophile free environment can be provided in public schools, forcing a parent to send their child to one is child endangerment.

Posts: 7328 | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TomDavidson
Member
Member # 99

 - posted      Profile for TomDavidson   Email TomDavidson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Interesting insight into the liberal mind.
A warning: it is very tempting, when you read something that confirms your biases about a group, to convince yourself that you've just received an "insight" about that group rather than a single data point that matches your preconceptions.
Posts: 19689 | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TomDavidson
Member
Member # 99

 - posted      Profile for TomDavidson   Email TomDavidson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Neither are good, and neither are the norm as far as I can tell...
Hm. I don't know. I know a lot of homeschoolers. I was myself a homeschooler. And I think parents who homeschool their children because they want, on some level, to shield their children from the world are the norm in that regard. There are generally other reasons as well, but I think that impulse is very common.
Posts: 19689 | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
philnotfil
Member
Member # 1881

 - posted      Profile for philnotfil     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:
Interesting insight into the liberal mind.
A warning: it is very tempting, when you read something that confirms your biases about a group, to convince yourself that you've just received an "insight" about that group rather than a single data point that matches your preconceptions.
True, it is also tempting when you read something that claims to be by members of a group and for members of a group to convince yourself that you have just read something that provides meaningful information about that group.
Posts: 3382 | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
AI Wessex
Member
Member # 6653

 - posted      Profile for AI Wessex   Email AI Wessex   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I know several families that homeschooled their children. Both of the parents were smart college educated people and the children were among the brightest and most well educated kids that I have seen in my own children's generation.
quote:
BREMERTON, Wash. (NBC) -- An 8-year-old girl remains in critical condition after being shot in her elementary school classroom Wednesday.
[Cherry:] "What kind of parent would send their children into an environment where they will be exposed to people using drugs, exposed to pedophiles masquerading as teachers and coaches, and exposed to violence and rape from their classmates?"

A very understandable concern. I feel the same way about people having to go to their workplace where things like this can happen:
quote:
[February 25, 2012] An employee at the Kmart store on Aurora Avenue North in Seattle was shot tonight during an attempted robbery, police said.
There are certainly a lot of workplace shootings reported in the news lately. Sometimes the shooting occurred during the commission of a robbery or other crime, but in most cases the shooter was emotionally distraught and killed innocent bystanders in addition to their intended target and themselves. We should find ways to let workers do their jobs from the safe environment of their homes.
Posts: 5607 | Registered: Feb 2011  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
PSRT
Member
Member # 6454

 - posted      Profile for PSRT   Email PSRT   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
The government is the only institution that can educate American children?
On a broad scale? Yes. There's never been a society where the majority of the population has received anything like a decent education where the undertaking hasn't been primarily backed by the strongest institution of the society, which in our case would be the government.

quote:
I'm going to get my children the best education I can, even if it means that we have to live on one income for one of us to stay home with them.
For the vast majority of Americans, that "best education I can," is going to be sending their kids to public schools. But, I hope too many Americans don't decide to educate their kids at home on one income... what economy we have left would fizzle as even more disposable income evaporates.
Posts: 1713 | Registered: Apr 2009  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TomDavidson
Member
Member # 99

 - posted      Profile for TomDavidson   Email TomDavidson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
True, it is also tempting when you read something that claims to be by members of a group and for members of a group to convince yourself that you have just read something that provides meaningful information about that group.
This is why Rick Santorum provides conclusive evidence that both Christians and conservatives are total nimrods. [Wink]

Seriously, though, don't get carried away with the whole "this is consistent with my stereotypical opinion of this group, and thus is truth that I can use to reinforce the existing stereotype." It's a pretty terrible brain malfunction to which we're all prone.

Posts: 19689 | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
KidTokyo
Member
Member # 6601

 - posted      Profile for KidTokyo   Email KidTokyo       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I like how it's supposed be about the liberal mind. Because, you know, there's only one. Like the female mind of the 19th century. A giant liberal hive controlled by a single brain. It's buried beneath the federal reserve building.
Posts: 1641 | Registered: Sep 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
KidTokyo
Member
Member # 6601

 - posted      Profile for KidTokyo   Email KidTokyo       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Pete,

I obviously do not support putting children in mortal danger. In places where there is a genuine risk of being knifed or shot, by all means home-school.

But most places are not like that. And, yes, pretty much every school has a few bullies. Learning how to deal with them is a necessary part of life.

It's not just about raising the quality of education for other kids. I think it's a disservice to children to keep them home, away from the world outside. They will be deprived of so many valuable experiences.

Posts: 1641 | Registered: Sep 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Greg Davidson
Member
Member # 3377

 - posted      Profile for Greg Davidson   Email Greg Davidson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
We homeschooled our kids - two of them until college, the youngest (black sheep of the family) actually went to high school. The homeschool community is very varied - back 15 years ago in maryland, we used to have conferences that included the tie-die people and the pearls people. And, interestingly enough, the pedagogy of each did not match your preconceptions. I remember at one conference where a guy with a tie die shirt and grey hair down to his shoulders described his approach to get a balky teenager to do his algebra: he paid him. Said that he was raising his children to be free individuals, and if it was the parent's desire but not the kids that he study algebra, the appropriate approach was to contract for those services. It takes all kinds - and there are all kinds out there.
Posts: 3036 | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
KidTokyo
Member
Member # 6601

 - posted      Profile for KidTokyo   Email KidTokyo       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Cherry,

Do you really think most public schools are like that?

Posts: 1641 | Registered: Sep 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pete at Home
Member
Member # 429

 - posted      Profile for Pete at Home   Email Pete at Home   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Kid, I don't think my son was in actual mortal danger, but I suspect that the trauma may have interfered with his education. He did need therapy.

As for my first son, we gave in and homeschooled when he came home and gave the following report: "I didn't learn anything. The whole place was like getting sent to the corner." There, the problem wasn't rubbing shoulders with poor kids (hell we were pretty poor ourselves at the time) but rather the fact that Crestwood Elementary was so underfunded that they had forty kids to one teacher in kidergarden.

Posts: 36697 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pete at Home
Member
Member # 429

 - posted      Profile for Pete at Home   Email Pete at Home   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"And, yes, pretty much every school has a few bullies. Learning how to deal with them is a necessary part of life."

Yes, bullies are everywhere, but not every school has a set of bullies that mark off a particular bathroom as their turf. That's the sign of an excess of kids who are being raised by graduates of our penal system.

It seems to me a little glib to suggest that a 7 year old kid needs to just learn to deal with bigger kids who try to choke him when he goes to the bathroom.

Posts: 36697 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
cherrypoptart
Member
Member # 3942

 - posted      Profile for cherrypoptart     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Yes, all public schools are like that. Are you saying there are some public schools with no drugs in them? No dangerous kids?
Posts: 7328 | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Wayward Son
Member
Member # 210

 - posted      Profile for Wayward Son   Email Wayward Son   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Are you saying that there are public schools where children don't get shot? Where they don't get killed or maimed? Where they are not in fear of their lives every single second? Really???

Name one.

Seriously, cherry, can you? [Wink]

Posts: 7433 | Registered: Dec 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
KidTokyo
Member
Member # 6601

 - posted      Profile for KidTokyo   Email KidTokyo       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
It seems to me a little glib to suggest that a 7 year old kid needs to just learn to deal with bigger kids who try to choke him when he goes to the bathroom.
I had kids steel my metal lunchbox and beat me about the head with it. Throw rocks at me. And so on. Childhood isn't always nice and easy. But there were ways of dealing with this, and as a kid it was important to learn when to go to the grown-ups and when to hold your own.

Now, again, if there is no adult supervision or recourse to authority at the school, then the place is truly hazardous and keeping your kids home is the right thing. It sounds like you live in such a place. However, I'm primarily addressing the fact that many home-schoolers are motivated not by fear of bullies and thugs, but by their fear of teachers and administrators.

[ February 27, 2012, 11:27 AM: Message edited by: KidTokyo ]

Posts: 1641 | Registered: Sep 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
KidTokyo
Member
Member # 6601

 - posted      Profile for KidTokyo   Email KidTokyo       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Cherry, most schools are not rife with these problems. The news presents a distorted reality.
Posts: 1641 | Registered: Sep 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
AI Wessex
Member
Member # 6653

 - posted      Profile for AI Wessex   Email AI Wessex   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"It seems to me a little glib to suggest that a 7 year old kid needs to just learn to deal with bigger kids who try to choke him when he goes to the bathroom."

I remember being targeted and attacked in middle and high school because I was an outsider to some groups. We all have that happen to different degrees, and we all have to learn to cope with it. Sometimes it gets out of hand, and it is the school's responsibility to manage the problems when that happens. Some schools are better at it than others, sometimes because the students are better behaved or the discipline is stronger. It all depends...

My daughter is a school social worker in the inner city system in DC. I can't believe the things she has to deal with. I'm sure I would be terrified, but not only does she handle her problem students well, but the students in the school have a community social atmosphere where they all look out for each other as much as possible. It's inevitable that bad things will happen to good people, but you can't escape the possibility something bad might happen to you or your children and still live openly in society.

Posts: 5607 | Registered: Feb 2011  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
cherrypoptart
Member
Member # 3942

 - posted      Profile for cherrypoptart     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
http://news.yahoo.com/1-killed-4-wounded-school-shooting-ohio-171202998.html

Practically every day, another story.

Maybe there are some schools that are safe, but nowadays you never know who will cause trouble where and when.

And when they are kids there often is no real way to hold them accountable, as if that makes a difference to the victims anyway.

Posts: 7328 | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
KidTokyo
Member
Member # 6601

 - posted      Profile for KidTokyo   Email KidTokyo       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Even if there was one such school shooting every day in the country, school would still be safer than driving a car. Or, or that matter, being driven to school.

To the extent that we've seen a lot more school shooting since the 1990's -- my solution is tighter regulation of the availability of guns.

Posts: 1641 | Registered: Sep 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
AI Wessex
Member
Member # 6653

 - posted      Profile for AI Wessex   Email AI Wessex   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"Maybe there are some schools that are safe, but nowadays you never know who will cause trouble where and when."

That kind of statement allows you to completely avoid any rebuttal, since there's always a case somewhere you can point to that reassures you that you are right, no matter what anybody else says. For instance, school violence has been falling in recent years (by about 20% since 2003). Shouldn't you feel better, not worse? There were 25 murders in public schools across the entire country between July/2009 and June/2010. Almost all of them were gun-related. For comparison, there were more murders in the city of Richmond, CA and over 300 murders in Detroit during roughly the same time period. Again, guns were responsible for more of the deaths than any other cause.

What all this tells me is that guns are a much bigger problem than public education. Wouldn't you agree?

Posts: 5607 | Registered: Feb 2011  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
cherrypoptart
Member
Member # 3942

 - posted      Profile for cherrypoptart     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I had actually meant to bring that up on the list of dangers of public school but didn't want to over do it. But you are right, even buses are dangerous, both in terms of accidents as well as lack of good supervision. And driving your child to school yourself or having them do it? Probably more dangerous than the bus, statistically. Not to mention the price of gas and the danger to the environment because of global warming, but mostly the price of gas. Homeschooling is environmentally friendly. I should have thought of that earlier to get liberals on board. [Smile]
Posts: 7328 | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
cherrypoptart
Member
Member # 3942

 - posted      Profile for cherrypoptart     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I agree Al, but there is no reason to send you children out in the streets either. That's why you keep them home. The important thing to compare is safety at home versus safety at school, and on the way to school. And just because children aren't killed doesn't mean they aren't harmed.

There was this case in California very recently:

http://news.yahoo.com/official-2nd-teacher-pulled-calif-school-145745209.html

Posts: 7328 | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
AI Wessex
Member
Member # 6653

 - posted      Profile for AI Wessex   Email AI Wessex   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Cherry, everywhere there are guns there is gun violence. Schools have less of a problem than the workplace. But home schooling is good, especially if you can shield your child from the temptations toward gun violence and the need to learn how to socialize with anybody you don't pre-select.
Posts: 5607 | Registered: Feb 2011  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
cherrypoptart
Member
Member # 3942

 - posted      Profile for cherrypoptart     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I find that the Jewish Community Center is a good place for kids to socialize. You don't even have to be Jewish. There's ping pong, volleyball, basketball, martial arts, dancing, gymnastics, all kinds of stuff to do really. If you have all that you don't need no stinking public school.
Posts: 7328 | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TomDavidson
Member
Member # 99

 - posted      Profile for TomDavidson   Email TomDavidson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I know that my daughters wouldn't be going to school if I could be sure they were learning enough ping pong from Jewish people.
Posts: 19689 | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
D.W.
Member
Member # 4370

 - posted      Profile for D.W.   Email D.W.   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I worry about home schooling because I don’t want our citizens to trend towards isolationists who are paranoid about anyone outside of their small community. I don’t want people who look on anyone outside of their economic, religious or racial group with suspicion or worse.

Our schools should be made more safe. Our schools should have more, better trained and better paid teachers. There is a lot wrong with public schooling in our country. Even with all these faults it’s more desirable an environment than what most liberals fear homeschooling will produce.

Both sides have irrational fears when it comes to how their kids will be turned out. For now we should continue to err on the side of parental rights. The public school system can be fixed without those being homeschooled. The slight detriment that their absence may cause those who stay is trivial compared to the other problems with the system. The more of those flaws we fix the less likely people are to opt for homeschooling.

Posts: 2350 | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pete at Home
Member
Member # 429

 - posted      Profile for Pete at Home   Email Pete at Home   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by AI Wessex:
"It seems to me a little glib to suggest that a 7 year old kid needs to just learn to deal with bigger kids who try to choke him when he goes to the bathroom."

I remember being targeted and attacked in middle and high school because I was an outsider to some groups. We all have that happen to different degrees, and we all have to learn to cope with it. Sometimes it gets out of hand, and it is the school's responsibility to manage the problems when that happens. Some schools are better at it than others, sometimes because the students are better behaved or the discipline is stronger. It all depends...

My daughter is a school social worker in the inner city system in DC. I can't believe the things she has to deal with. I'm sure I would be terrified, but not only does she handle her problem students well, but the students in the school have a community social atmosphere where they all look out for each other as much as possible. It's inevitable that bad things will happen to good people, but you can't escape the possibility something bad might happen to you or your children and still live openly in society.

All as irrelevant as it is true. What you said has nothing to do with you 7 year old getting choked every time he goes to the focking bathroom because some group has staked it out as their turf. You might as well say that rape is real and that white women in South Africa need to just learn to deal with it, like Mandela said after age took away his marbles.
Posts: 36697 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
AI Wessex
Member
Member # 6653

 - posted      Profile for AI Wessex   Email AI Wessex   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
[TomD:] "I know that my daughters wouldn't be going to school if I could be sure they were learning enough ping pong from Jewish people."

Along with the lessons they would learn about chutzpah. Michelle Bachmann never went and as a result pronounces the word "chuts-puh".

[DW:] "I worry about home schooling because I don’t want our citizens to trend towards isolationists who are paranoid about anyone outside of their small community. I don’t want people who look on anyone outside of their economic, religious or racial group with suspicion or worse."

The home schooling agenda can be streamlined to focus on the important subjects, as well. Too many students are forced to learn about things that have no relevance in later life, like algebra and history.

Posts: 5607 | Registered: Feb 2011  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
AI Wessex
Member
Member # 6653

 - posted      Profile for AI Wessex   Email AI Wessex   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"You might as well say that rape is real and that white women in South Africa need to just learn to deal with it, like Mandela said after age took away his marbles."

You might want to reread the quote of mine again, as of course I never said anything like that. You're mixing your personal family's difficulties with the general.

Posts: 5607 | Registered: Feb 2011  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
D.W.
Member
Member # 4370

 - posted      Profile for D.W.   Email D.W.   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
The home schooling agenda can be streamlined to focus on the important subjects, as well. Too many students are forced to learn about things that have no relevance in later life, like algebra and history.
At what age should a child choose a vocation and have their curriculum tailored to that vocation? I was able to make those decisions in high school for myself. Should I have had that option at a younger age? Should I have had that option at all or should my parents have had the option to decide that for me? Or at least heavily influence the decision by steering my education in a direction of their choosing?

I’m a farmer, my grandfather was a farmer, I will teach you farming because it’s all you need. Replace farmer this with engineer or banker or CEO or whatever. Thanks for giving me another reason to be concerned with homeschooling. [Wink]

Posts: 2350 | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
AI Wessex
Member
Member # 6653

 - posted      Profile for AI Wessex   Email AI Wessex   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
That was my intention [Smile] . Algebra in particular is well known for clogging student's brains with indigestible material that becomes a direct cause of headaches, depression and anxiety.
Posts: 5607 | Registered: Feb 2011  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Chael
Member
Member # 2436

 - posted      Profile for Chael   Email Chael   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:
Neither are good, and neither are the norm as far as I can tell...
Hm. I don't know. I know a lot of homeschoolers. I was myself a homeschooler. And I think parents who homeschool their children because they want, on some level, to shield their children from the world are the norm in that regard. There are generally other reasons as well, but I think that impulse is very common.
I agree that a protective impulse is pretty common (see: helicopter parents, unfortunately existing everywhere). But this is what I mean about traveling into the land of anecdotes. I also know a lot of homeschoolers, and was myself homeschooled until college, and my experience was different. My parents, for example, were of the mindset that there were many ways to be involved in the world, and so far as I can tell the negative thing which was involved with their decision to homeschool was the school choices available, not (for example) the idea that schools were in and of themselves bad. They did the rounds of local schools with the idea that I'd be going to one of them.

Don't get me wrong; my educational experience wasn't perfect and my parents weren't paragons. I had a really weird set of highschool years; my sister's a social butterfly and ended up completely differently. But it was a good experience for me, and one that I'm happy with.

In the homeschool co-ops I remember frequenting, there were one or two 'shield them from the evil world's, two or three free-range unschoolers (I think we've talked about these in the past--now /they/ worry me a bit), and the rest more or less like my parents. It was a strong majority.

You do have an advantage on the anecdotal side of this discussion, however; you gathered your data as an adult. It's possible that I would change my stance were I to take another look at local homeschooling groups now. I suppose I'll find out if I have a child.

Posts: 864 | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Chael
Member
Member # 2436

 - posted      Profile for Chael   Email Chael   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by AI Wessex:
That was my intention [Smile] . Algebra in particular is well known for clogging student's brains with indigestible material that becomes a direct cause of headaches, depression and anxiety.

I teach at one of the local community colleges, and I hear from many of my students the horrors of the developmental math classes. I have one who hasn't quite got the hang of basic division. They went through the public school system.

When I taught at one of our local universities as a TA (think: college professor for $10 an hour [Wink] ), many of my students did not have a basic command of the written English language. They were also from public schools.

While your snark is amusing, AI, it doesn't really speak to the problem. [Wink] Now, if you wish to rag on the unschoolers, I'll not get in your way--but painting all homeschoolers with that brush results in...I'm thinking of a paint-by-numbers picture of a dog that ends up looking more like a biplane, with glorious explosions fore and aft. It's exciting but not quite accurate.

Posts: 864 | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
AI Wessex
Member
Member # 6653

 - posted      Profile for AI Wessex   Email AI Wessex   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
You may have missed my first post in this thread where I offered solid support and praise for home schooling. We decided not to homeschool our daughters, but we considered that option along with Steiner education and other things. In the end, we decided that the public schools here were good enough and that we could monitor and augment where they lacked. I'm satisfied with how it all turned out, not because they went on to become pointy headed experts, but because they both had very well-rounded educations, still have curious attitudes and are still hungry to learn and master new areas in their lives. Dare I say that they had Liberal Arts educations [Wink] .

Edit to add: BTW, I was most disappointed in the elementary and middle school math curricula in our local schools. I spent considerable time teaching my daughters why math *is* fun and luckily they saw that, too. I also taught them how to write, bind and publish stories and plays in book form. I'm not bragging (just a little), just pointing out that no matter how you educate your kids, it's not only your responsibility, but also your opportunity. As I get older (and so do they, now in their early 30's) I find I can go to them with questions as they've surpassed me in almost every way.

[ February 27, 2012, 04:48 PM: Message edited by: AI Wessex ]

Posts: 5607 | Registered: Feb 2011  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Chael
Member
Member # 2436

 - posted      Profile for Chael   Email Chael   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by AI Wessex:
You may have missed my first post in this thread where I offered solid support and praise for home schooling.

Apparently I ate my lack-of-short-term-memory-os today. Sorry for completely misreading your joke. [Wink]

The rest of your post was lovely.

Posts: 864 | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
  This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2   

Quick Reply
Message:

HTML is not enabled.
UBB Code™ is enabled.
UBB Code™ Images not permitted.
Instant Graemlins
   


Post New Topic  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | Ornery.org Front Page

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.7.1