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Author Topic: Does Islam condone or sanction Murder?
Bud Martin
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I ask again for the liberal community to stand up and be heard; please address a very specific comment and either agree or disagree with the following statement.

ANY RELIGION THAT CALLS FOR JIHAD, THE KILLING OF APOSTATES OR CONDONES "HONOR" KILLING DOESN'T DESERVE THE RIGHT TO EXIST AND SHOULD BE STAMPED OUT.

Either Muslim religious leaders remove those beliefs from their accepted principles publically (by Fatwa) and state they don't believe in them and repudiate them as acceptable or they cannot be accepted as an organized religion by any civilized nation!

Does anyone on the left care to disagree with that?

Let me clarify that I'm defining Jihad as violence against any group or people (like Jews) as described in the Charter for Hamas, that calls for the killing of others based on their religious beliefs or nationality or even their location, sexual orientation or occupation (as in the case of the soldier slaughtered and beheaded in London).

The killing of apostates refers to the legalized religious sanctioned murder of any Muslim that changes religion or is believed to insult Islam in some way (as in the case of Salman Rushdie).

An honor killing is the homicide of a member of a family or social group by other members, due to the belief of the perpetrators that the victim has brought dishonor upon the family or community.

[ June 09, 2013, 07:54 PM: Message edited by: Bud Martin ]

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TommySama
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lolwut
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Aris Katsaris
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quote:
I ask again for the liberal community to stand up and be heard; please address a very specific comment and either agree or disagree with the following statement.

ANY RELIGION THAT CALLS FOR JIHAD, THE KILLING OF APOSTATES OR CONDONES "HONOR" KILLING DOESN'T DESERVE THE RIGHT TO EXIST AND SHOULD BE STAMPED OUT.

I think whether I agree or disagree with this depends on your exact methodology for "stamping out" said religion.

---

Also keep in mind the following verses from the holy books of Christianity and Judaism:
Matthew 15:3-4: "Jesus replied,"And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? For God said, 'Honor your father and mother' and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.' "

Deuteronomy 13:6-9 "If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying: Let us go and worship other gods (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other, or gods of other religions), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people."

So, don't be sure that the instruction you use against Islam won't also be used against Judaism and Christianity.

[ June 10, 2013, 03:58 AM: Message edited by: Aris Katsaris ]

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Bud Martin
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Aris,

Please don't confuse ancient history with modern times and the present. I'm talking about the issuance of a Religious directive by a current or recent Muslim religious leader or an issuance from a standing Sharia Court sanctioning the killing of an individual or a number of people based one of the following three methods to incite Muslim believers to commit violence:

1. Jihad.
2. Killing an apostate.
3. Honor killing.

I believe that the written documents are proof that the followers who obey the directive to murder will be forgiven by Allah, but I'm not certain of that.

The Charter for Hamas Part I:

quote:
Hamas Charter (1988)

The Charter of Allah: The Platform of the Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas)

“In the Name of Allah, the Merciful, the Compassionate You are the best community that has been raised up for mankind. Ye enjoin right conduct and forbid indecency; and ye believe in Allah. And if the People of the Scripture had believed, it had been better for them. Some of them are believers; but most of them are evil-doers. They will not harm you save a trifling hurt, and if they fight against you they will turn and flee. And afterward they will not be helped. Ignominy shall be their portion wheresoever they are found save [where they grasp] a rope from Allah and a rope from man. They have incurred anger from their Lord, and wretchedness is laid upon them. That is because they used to disbelieve the revelations of Allah, and slew the Prophets wrongfully. That is because they were rebellious and used to transgress.” Surat Al-Imran (III), verses 109-111 Israel will rise and will remain erect until Islam eliminates it as it had eliminated its predecessors. The Islamic World is burning. It is incumbent upon each one of us to pour some water, little as it may be, with a view of extinguishing as much of the fire as he can, without awaiting action by the others.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Introduction

Grace to Allah, whose help we seek, whose forgiveness we beseech, whose guidance we implore and on whom we rely. We pray and bid peace upon the Messenger of Allah, his family, his companions, his followers and those who spread his message and followed his tradition; they will last as long as there exist Heaven and Earth. O, people! In the midst of misadventure, from the depth of suffering, from the believing hearts and purified arms; aware of our duty and in response to the decree of Allah, we direct our call, we rally together and join each other. We educate in the path of Allah and we make our firm determination prevail so as to take its proper role in life, to overcome all difficulties and to cross all hurdles. Hence our permanent state of preparedness and our readiness to sacrifice our souls and dearest [possessions] in the path of Allah. Thus, our nucleus has formed which chartered its way in the tempestuous ocean of creeds and hopes, desires and wishes, dangers and difficulties, setbacks and challenges, both internal and external. When the thought matured, the seed grew and the plant took root in the land of reality, detached from temporary emotion and unwelcome haste, the Islamic Resistance Movement erupted in order to play its role in the path of its Lord. In so doing, it joined its hands with those of all Jihad fighters for the purpose of liberating Palestine. The souls of its Jihad fighters will encounter those of all Jihad fighters who have sacrificed their lives in the land of Palestine since it was conquered by the Companion of the Prophet, be Allah’s prayer and peace upon him, and until this very day. This is the Charter of the Islamic Resistance (Hamas) which will reveal its face, unveil its identity, state its position, clarify its purpose, discuss its hopes, call for support to its cause and reinforcement, and for joining its ranks. For our struggle against the Jews is extremely wide-ranging and grave, so much so that it will need all the loyal efforts we can wield, to be followed by further steps and reinforced by successive battalions from the multifarious Arab and Islamic world, until the enemies are defeated and Allah’s victory prevails. Thus we shall perceive them approaching in the horizon, and this will be known before long: “Allah has decreed: Lo! I very shall conquer, I and my messenger, lo! Allah is strong, almighty.”


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Part I - Knowing the Movement

Article One: The Ideological Aspects
The Islamic Resistance Movement draws its guidelines from Islam; derives from it its thinking, interpretations and views about existence, life and humanity; refers back to it for its conduct; and is inspired by it in whatever step it takes.

Article Two: The Link between Hamas and the Association of Muslim Brothers
The Islamic Resistance Movement is one of the wings of the Muslim Brothers in Palestine. The Muslim Brotherhood Movement is a world organization, the largest Islamic Movement in the modern era. It is characterized by a profound understanding, by precise notions and by a complete comprehensiveness of all concepts of Islam in all domains of life: views and beliefs, politics and economics, education and society, jurisprudence and rule, indoctrination and teaching, the arts and publications, the hidden and the evident, and all the other domains of life.
Article Three: Structure and Essence
The basic structure of the Islamic Resistance Movement consists of Muslims who are devoted to Allah and worship Him verily [as it is written]: “I have created Man and Devil for the purpose of their worship” [of Allah]. Those Muslims are cognizant of their duty towards themselves, their families and country and they have been relying on Allah for all that. They have raised the banner of Jihad in the face of the oppressors in order to extricate the country and the people from the [oppressors’] desecration, filth and evil.

Article Four
The Movement welcomes all Muslims who share its beliefs and thinking, commit themselves to its course of action, keep its secrets and aspire to join its ranks in order to carry out their duty. Allah will reward them.

Article Five: Dimensions of Time and Space of the Hamas
As the Movement adopts Islam as its way of life, its time dimension extends back as far as the birth of the Islamic Message and of the Righteous Ancestor. Its ultimate goal is Islam, the Prophet its model, the Qur’an its Constitution. Its special dimension extends wherever on earth there are Muslims, who adopt Islam as their way of life; thus, it penetrates to the deepest reaches of the land and to the highest spheres of Heavens.

Article Six: Peculiarity and Independence
The Islamic Resistance Movement is a distinct Palestinian Movement which owes its loyalty to Allah, derives from Islam its way of life and strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine. Only under the shadow of Islam could the members of all regions coexist in safety and security for their lives, properties and rights. In the absence of Islam, conflict arises, oppression reigns, corruption is rampant and struggles and wars prevail. Allah had inspired the Muslim poet, Muhammad Iqbal, when he said:
When the Faith wanes, there is no security
There is no this-worldliness for those who have no faith
Those who wish to live their life without religion
Have made annihilation the equivalent of life.

Article Seven: The Universality of Hamas
By virtue of the distribution of Muslims, who pursue the cause of the Hamas, all over the globe, and strive for its victory, for the reinforcement of its positions and for the encouragement of its Jihad, the Movement is a universal one. It is apt to be that due to the clarity of its thinking, the nobility of its purpose and the loftiness of its objectives. It is in this light that the Movement has to be regarded, evaluated and acknowledged. Whoever denigrates its worth, or avoids supporting it, or is so blind as to dismiss its role, is challenging Fate itself. Whoever closes his eyes from seeing the facts, whether intentionally or not, will wake up to find himself overtaken by events, and will find no excuses to justify his position. Priority is reserved to the early comers. Oppressing those who are closest to you, is more of an agony to the soul than the impact of an Indian sword. “And unto thee have we revealed the Scripture with the truth, confirming whatever scripture was before it, and a watcher over it. So judge between them by that which Allah hath revealed, and follow not their desires away from the truth which has come unto thee. For each we have appointed a divine law and a traced-out way. Had Allah willed, He could have made you one community. But that He may try you by that which he has given you [He has made you as you are]. So vie with one another in good works. Unto Allah, you will all return. He will then inform you of that wherein you differ.” Hamas is one of the links in the Chain of Jihad in the confrontation with the Zionist invasion. It links up with the setting out of the Martyr Izz a-din al-Qassam and his brothers in the Muslim Brotherhood who fought the Holy War in 1936; it further relates to another link of the Palestinian Jihad and the Jihad and efforts of the Muslim Brothers during the 1948 War, and to the Jihad operations of the Muslim Brothers in 1968 and thereafter. But even if the links have become distant from each other, and even if the obstacles erected by those who revolve in the Zionist orbit, aiming at obstructing the road before the Jihad fighters, have rendered the pursuance of Jihad impossible; nevertheless, the Hamas has been looking forward to implement Allah’s promise whatever time it might take. The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will not apply to the Gharqad, which is a Jewish tree (cited by Bukhari and Muslim).

Article Eight: The Slogan of the Hamas
Allah is its goal, the Prophet its model, the Qur’an its Constitution, Jihad its path and death for the case of Allah its most sublime belief.

Notice particularly Article 2, 3, 7 and 8.

They associate with the Muslim Brotherhood in Article 2, refer to the Jihad in Article 3, Article 7 ties the conflict to the history of Jihad against the Jews and the authorization to kill Jews, while Article 8 ties it all to the Prophet, the Quran and its path of Jihad.

In the case of Author Salman Rushdie:

On 14 February 1989, a fatwā requiring Rushdie's execution was proclaimed on Radio Tehran by Ayatollah Khomeini, the spiritual leader of Iran at the time, calling the book "Satanic Verses" - "blasphemous against Islam".... A bounty was offered for Rushdie's death, and he was thus forced to live under police protection for several years.

In the case of a Sharia Court as in Saudi Arabia:

Saudi Arabia has a criminal justice system based on a hardline and literal form of Sharia law due to Islam being the official state religion.

The death penalty can be imposed for a wide range of offences including murder, rape, false prophecy , armed robbery, repeated drug use, apostasy , adultery, witchcraft and sorcery and can be carried out by beheading with a sword, or more rarely by firing squad, and sometimes by stoning.

[ June 10, 2013, 04:43 AM: Message edited by: Bud Martin ]

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Bud Martin
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From the yale undergraduate law review:

quote:
Another source of incompatibility between the West and a country like Saudi Arabia is the prevalence – and approval for – honor killings. According to Supna Zaidi of Islamist Watch, a project of the Middle East Forum, “No passage in the Koran discusses honor killings, but Muslim clerics justify them and secular Muslims do not punish them or pass laws to mitigate punishment for them… honor killings are justified under Islam in some Muslim countries such as Saudi Arabia. For example, tenth- grade textbooks teach Saudi children that it is permissible to kill adulterers.” The recent cases of honor killings make this justification apparent: in 2009, a brother killed his two sisters for talking to men in public, while their father watched ap- provingly, and in 2008, a father killed his daughter for using Facebook, which a sheikh had denounced as a “door to lust.” Clearly this sort of vigilante justice cannot be compatible with Western ideals or the Western legal system, and it illustrates one of the main points of contention between Western and Sharia law.
Aris,

By Stamped out, I mean not allowed to have the status as a recognized religion under the law and therefore could not use the benefits that are used by recognized religions, such as tax exempt status, or to issue bonds for building permits, to incorporate or any other legal recognition in the eyes of the law. No form of that religion could exist legally for any purpose; that would include such things as a Madrasa or religious school.

[ June 10, 2013, 05:17 AM: Message edited by: Bud Martin ]

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Aris Katsaris
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quote:
" I'm talking about the issuance of a Religious directive by a current or recent Muslim religious leader or an issuance from a standing Sharia Court sanctioning the killing of an individual or a number of people based one of the following three methods to incite Muslim believers to commit violence:"
So when you mean "religion", you mean "religious organization", not the actual faith involved?

If so, I'm all in favour of destroying all religious organizations that advocate murder and violence, yes, same with non-religious organizations that do so.

This includes some Christian organizations (e.g. http://americablog.com/2013/05/priests-led-violent-mob-of-20000-that-attacked-small-group-of-gay-protester-in-former-soviet-georgia.html , http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/greeks-fascist-homophobes-have-gay-jesus-on-their-side ) -- and NO, it's not just about ancient times, it's about stuff that happened as recently as two weeks ago.

[ June 10, 2013, 05:26 AM: Message edited by: Aris Katsaris ]

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Bud Martin
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Aris,

I keep making this point: I'm referring to JUST the leaders of an organized religion. If any religious leaders make a statement that calls for the murder of anyone, you must hold that leader and all his followers that act on his orders equally culpable. In the case like the Cleric that called for Jihad in Syria (infering the genocide of all alawites), he was a Muslim brotherhood leader; then all of the Muslim brotherhood members that are in that sect or organization that follow his direction are as culpable as him.

The only way for them to NOT be culpable is to state publically that they are not going to follow his direction (The leader of a Mosque or the leader of a country, like Egypt's Muslim brotherhood president could do this) and that they repudiate that sanctioning of murder. This would force clerics, mullahs, ministers or priests that do nothing when a religiously sanctioned murder is directed to be done by a leader in their organization to publically denounce those murderous policies and distance themselves from that leader or face the consequence of being financially liable for damages and to be sanctioned as an illegal religion.

I'm not talking about individuals that commit crimes and claim religious direction, I’m talking about the leaders of an organized religion ONLY and there is a way to determine those leaders based on that religion’s organizational structure and laws. [Let’s leave cults and rogue leaders out of this discussion as it only complicates things.]

If there is a paper trail or public admission, like a Fatwa or edict by or from a religious leader that sanctioned the murder of Gays in Georgia or Greece, then they should fall under the same consequences I’ve described here.

Was there any people killed in those instances? Remember violence and murder are a degree apart and the punishment for advocating murder has to be greater than that advocating violence. Once we get the issue of sanctioning murder handled, then we should carry on the fight to include sanctioning violence also (as we have in the US and its called hate crimes).

[ June 10, 2013, 07:18 AM: Message edited by: Bud Martin ]

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Aris Katsaris
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quote:
keep making this point: I'm referring to JUST the leaders of an organized religion. If any religious leaders make a statement that calls for the murder of anyone, you must hold that leader and all his followers that act on his orders equally culpable.
You're more tolerant than me then. On my part I see little difference between a religious organization directly urging murder, and a religious organization merely supporting murderers.

http://srebrenica-genocide.blogspot.be/2011/08/serbian-orthodox-church-endorses-war.html
"the Serbian Orthodox Church has hosted a book launch at the parish house of the Cathedral of St. Sava in Belgrade to promote a prison memoir, “Ispovest haškog sužnja” (“Testimony of a Hague prisoner”). The book’s author is the convicted war criminal Milan Lukić — a ruthless mass murderer and serial rapist. "
"The recently-captured fugitives, former Bosnian Serb General Ratko Mladić and Croatian Serb leader Goran Hadžić, bragged that the Serbian Orthodox Church helped them evade justice"

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Bud Martin
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Aris,

I was trying to get a top down agreement on the leaders of a religion before I got to the followers that they implicitly support who are guilty of murder, but I agree with that sentiment completely.

I just think that these are two seperate issues, though very similar in nature, and once we can agree on one issue, it should logically follow that the other issue is just as viable.

I hope that all organized religions will one day be required by all nations to have in their organizational laws that they repudiate murder and violence of any kind except for self defence and that national and international laws shall govern that definition.

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Bud Martin
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Right now, the Sunni sect of Islam, which comprises 80-85% of all Muslims has in its laws, all 3 methods of sanctioning murder and has 6 hadiths of scholarly law that backs their beliefs on this concept. I haven't found any Sunni Muslim organization that doesn't believe in one or all of those 6 hadiths.

Is there anyone out there that knows how a Sunni Muslim can NOT support sanctioned murder (without himself becoming a heretic), when Jihad, the killing of apostates and Honor Killing is in all of their 6 Hadiths that their religion is based on? The Sunni Muslim belief is to follow exactly the teachings of Muhammad isn't it? It’s a historical fact that he sanctioned murder and committed murder for religious purposes, so doesn't that require the Sunni sect to comply "LITERALLY" with those teachings and life examples from Muhammad?

If there is a sub-sect of Sunni Muslims that don't believe in religiously sanctioned murder, they sure do keep quiet about it because I can't find any. Please, help me out here to understand why they say that the majority of Muslims don't believe in religious murder, when the majority of Muslims are Sunni and to not go along with the Sunni belief of sanctioned murder makes them guilty of being a heretic.

quote:
Sunni Islam is sometimes referred to as the orthodox version of the religion. The word "Sunni" comes from the term Sunnah, which refers to the sayings and actions of the prophet Muhammad as recorded in Hadiths.
We already know that the Shia state sponsored Islam of Iran does support religious murder also, so that isn't even a consideration here and they represent around 10% of Muslims.

[ June 10, 2013, 09:22 AM: Message edited by: Bud Martin ]

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Viking_Longship
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Bud are you considering the use of capital punishment by the state murder?
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Wayward Son
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quote:
ANY RELIGION THAT CALLS FOR JIHAD, THE KILLING OF APOSTATES OR CONDONES "HONOR" KILLING DOESN'T DESERVE THE RIGHT TO EXIST AND SHOULD BE STAMPED OUT.
I believe any person that calls for religious war, killing of apostates or condones "honor" killing doesn't derserve the right to exist and should be stamped out. Is that good enough for you?

quote:
Either Muslim religious leaders remove those beliefs from their accepted principles publically (by Fatwa) and state they don't believe in them and repudiate them as acceptable or they cannot be accepted as an organized religion by any civilized nation!
The problem with this idea is that you will force good people to be killed.

Either they publically oppose those who will do violence (thereby bringing down the wrath of those who do voilence on them), or they stay silent, thereby bringing down violence on them from you. Either way they're scr**ed.

It's like telling a person with a gun pointed at his head that he repudiates the guy with the gun or else you'll shoot him. [Roll Eyes]

Being Muslim does not require a person to believe in jihad (as you use it), the killing of apostates or "honor" killing. But with the "you're either with us or against us" mentality of much of the world, you cannot criticize such things and expect to live in certain communities. And when those outside the community would just as well kill you, forcing people to repudiate their own is simply forcing them to choose between embracing evil and suicide.

Which would you choose for yourself, your parents, your wife, your children, and everyone you know?

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rightleft22
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A religion of stamping out any religion that stamps out religion.

I’m in.

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Wayward Son
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Hey, if it ain't paradoxical, it ain't religion, right? [Big Grin]
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Pete at Home
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Christianity, if used as an instrument to stamp out another religion, would cease to be Christianity.

I do think than anyone who refuses to sign a rejection of any right to change religions, and to reject religion, should be placed on a no fly list. And honor killings should be treated as hate crimes.

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Pete at Home
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"Jihad" as muslims conceive it aint always bad. It means a righteous struggle, aka crusade. When they say in Les Mis, will u join in my crusade, we understand it doesnt mean interfaith killings.
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NobleHunter
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quote:
Christianity, if used as an instrument to stamp out another religion, would cease to be Christianity.
So Christianity has been practiced more in the breach than the observance?

[ June 10, 2013, 03:56 PM: Message edited by: NobleHunter ]

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Viking_Longship
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
"Jihad" as muslims conceive it aint always bad. It means a righteous struggle, aka crusade. When they say in Les Mis, will u join in my crusade, we understand it doesnt mean interfaith killings.

The Lesser Jihad is the physical struggle against enemies. The Greater Jihad is the spiritual struggle within.

Both would be required of a Muslim but the majority of Muslims aren't buying the argument that Islam is under attack from the west.

Bud's policies could change that if ever enacted. Trying to wipe out the whole religion is a terrible bad idea.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by NobleHunter:
quote:
Christianity, if used as an instrument to stamp out another religion, would cease to be Christianity.
So Christianity has been practiced more in the breach than the observance?
That should be painfully obvious if you'd rather Sermon on the Mount. But what you say is also true of Judaism, Islam, even Buddhism. Very hard to practice.
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NobleHunter
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I don't know if that's fair to say of Judaism. They've had so little opportunity to stamp out other religions. Though I suppose they did a number on some that had pre-occupied the Promised Land.
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Bud Martin
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quote:
Bud are you considering the use of capital punishment by the state murder?
Viking,

That’s a separate issue, but related to this discussion. I just don't feel like I could answer that question definitively since I'm not very well informed on international treaties and laws regarding capital punishment or human rights. Just as a matter of the heart, I would believe that many forms of capital punishment carried out by many states are indeed murder, but there are too many connotative variations and possible situations to make any blanket answer to that question even remotely accurate or sensible.

quote:
The Lesser Jihad is the physical struggle against enemies. The Greater Jihad is the spiritual struggle within.

Both would be required of a Muslim but the majority of Muslims aren't buying the argument that Islam is under attack from the west.

Bud's policies could change that if ever enacted. Trying to wipe out the whole religion is a terrible bad idea.

Viking,

You first have to stop the spread of that religion before you “stomp it out”, but I was thinking that if the West could recognize a religion that is sponsoring/sanctioning murder [and consequently the threat of violence against its followers if they ever try to change their beliefs (become an apostate) or dare to speak out against that religion (become a blasphemer)], then the West could begin to take some measures to keep that religion from spreading into their societies.

If a religion changed its tenets to stop the sanctioning of murder by any and all of its leaders in the 3 ways I've repeatedly mentioned, then this issue would no longer be so problematic and there would be no need to "Stomp it out".

I seriously doubt that it's possible for Islamic religious leaders to make such a concession, considering their extremist nature, to change those tenets that sanction religious murder since they are part of all the Hadiths that the Sunni religion is based on and is incorporated into the ideal that Sunnah believer's follow: which is the literal following of life examples and teachings of Muhammad.

To say that taking any action against this threat is a terrible bad idea is tantamount to surrendering to religious intimidation and threats. This situation of murder and terrorism in the name of religion has gotten completely out of hand and is threatening the very existence of all western societies.

As a minimum, we have to identify those religious leaders that sanction murder and find a way to de-legitimize their influence over others within that religion or we will definitlely have to confront the entire religion as a state enemy as a means of self preservation.

quote:
The problem with this idea is that you will force good people to be killed.
Wayward,

You are proving my point that a belief system that forces its own followers to obey its tenets absolutely upon pain of violence or death and threatens Jihad against any who oppose its expansion, doesn’t deserve to be considered a legitimate recognized religion. Philosophically you agreed to my premise and coming up with the implementation of it must first begin with stopping the spread of that religion. Abdicating the responsibility to take any action against a murderer out of fear isn’t practical; it’s suicidal in the long term and a losing argument.

[ June 10, 2013, 10:48 PM: Message edited by: Bud Martin ]

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Viking_Longship
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Bud

quote:
To say that taking any action against this threat is a terrible bad idea is tantamount to surrendering to religious intimidation and threats. This situation of murder and terrorism in the name of religion has gotten completely out of hand and is threatening the very existence of all western societies.

Your solution or we're surrendering to the terrorists? Please...

You're pretty much acting as an ally and an enabaler of the very Jihadis you're supposed to be opposed to with this kind of talk.

They can't fight the Jihad if they can't argue they're being victimized. Those are the rules.

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D.W.
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Our society can't even "stamp out" something like Scientology. What chance does it have against Islam and it's legacy? Sure is a good thing religions don't thrive on adversity and oppression or else it could be REALLY hard to subvert them.

The government just needs to distance itself from ALL religions and then enforce the law when any of them break it. If the leadership is urging its' members to break the law then charge them as accessories when appropriate or for inciting if possible and if needed put some new laws on the books to allow the law to prosecute more easily for cause and effect of hate speech translating to violence.

Lashing out (or being perceived as doing so) against one religion will most likely cause our country more harm than good and do almost nothing to change the religion we label as a threat. Attempting to denounce a religion in a foreign country borders on pointless. I'm all for cutting off aid/support for any state which sponsors a religion which is promoting or responsible for violence. Beyond that there isn't much we can do outside of our own boarders besides generating a great deal of ill will.

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Bud Martin
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quote:
You're pretty much acting as an ally and an enabler of the very Jihadis you're supposed to be opposed to with this kind of talk.

They can't fight the Jihad if they can't argue they're being victimized. Those are the rules.

Viking,

Are you saying that we shouldn’t identify Jihad as a form of murder when it is used to attack westerners, like 9/11? How can calling these murderers and all those that sanctioned their actions as co-conspirators to murder, be considered as enabling them? I don’t see that logic.

If telling Islam that we won’t condone the sanctioning of murder for religious reasons somehow supports them, then we will never be able to confront this issue. There is definitely a problem with Islam if they can’t understand that sanctioning religious murder for those 3 reasons should be unacceptable.

This is a just a discussion about these issues and not representative of any actions taken by the US government, so this kind of talk should have NO bearing on anything that the Jihadists think or actions they take.

This is a just a philosophical evaluation on whether or not there is murder for religious purposes going on in religion and I specifically mention Sunni’s as an example because of their Hadiths and literal adherence to Muhammad’s life.

The actual implementation of any measures to prevent the spread of religious murders would certainly have to take into consideration the monolithic reactions that Muslims make regarding anything they feel is a threat to their religion. Those questions will have to be answered later, but right now, I don’t see anyone disagreeing with the premise that sanctioning murder for religious reasons should not be allowed.

So let’s start identifying those religions that sanction murder. I first nominate the Sunni Islamic belief systems to begin with. I nominate the Sunnis because of their Hadiths that promote the literal interpretation of Jihad, the killing of apostates and the support by Sunni clerics for honor killings. I would cite as a recent example the Muslim brotherhood Cleric in Qatar that called for a jihad in Syria and is the same Cleric that has supported jihad against Israel in the past.

quote:
"We believe that the battle between us and the Jews is coming," he wrote in a book called Fatwa on Palestine published in 2003. "Such a battle is not driven by nationalistic causes or patriotic belonging; it is rather driven by religious incentives." The name of one of the book's chapters is "The Judgment Day Will Not Occur Unless You Fight Jews.”

Qaradawi's fatwas, or religious decrees, regarding Israel and Palestine have riled some Palestinian leaders, as did his recent visit to the Gaza Strip. Though warmly embraced by Hamas, the cleric's incendiary rhetoric against Israel worries secular Palestinian leaders working to neutralize the influence of Hamas' militancy.

When considering this, you should think about the standing of this individual in the religious community to determine his influence over the religion, so I'll offer up this:

quote:
Sheikh Qaradawi, 86, is a prolific broadcaster who fled his native Egypt for Qatar in 1961 after repeated imprisonment due to his close connection with the Muslim Brotherhood. He returned just after Hosni Mubarak's ouster in February 2011 to call for "a new government without any of these faces whom people can no longer stand.”

The cleric remains an intellectual leader of the Brotherhood and hosts a popular religious program on al-Jazeera TV that attracts an estimated 60 million viewers.

So should anyone in the West denounce his call for Jihad? Do we ignore the possibility that he wants to start a sectarian war in the Middle East?

{QUOTE] An influential Sunni Muslim cleric has called for holy war against Syrian President Bashar al-Assad's regime, urging that "every Muslim trained to fight and capable of doing that make himself available."

Sheikh Youssef al-Qaradawi called Shia Islamic militant group Hezbollah, which this weekend amassed a force of thousands in Aleppo to fight Syrian rebels, the "party of Satan" at a rally in Doha on Friday night. Once a Hezbollah supporter, the cleric now accuses the group of serving the Iranian regime in a sectarian war against Sunnis.

"Iran is pushing forward arms and men, so why do we stand idle?" Qaradawi asked, noting that he was not targeting all Shia. "Now we know what the Iranians want... They want continued massacres to kill Sunnis."
[/QUOTE]

Is this call for Jihad by this Cleric a sanctioning of murder for religious purposes? Yes or No.

All of these quotes came from:

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatches/globalpost-blogs/belief/youssef-qaradawi-jihad-assad-regime-syria-hezbollah


D.W.

Like I was saying, this is still just a philosophical discussion to determine what exactly we are meaning when we say "the sanctioning of murder for religious purposes". I'm not trying to discuss what our government is capable of at all, but I totally agree you’re your assertion about:

quote:
The government just needs to distance itself from ALL religions and then enforce the law when any of them break it. If the leadership is urging its' members to break the law then charge them as accessories when appropriate or for inciting if possible and if needed put some new laws on the books to allow the law to prosecute more easily for cause and effect of hate speech translating to violence.

I'm also accepting that the entire last paragraph is likely a fact of life that we have to deal with:

quote:
Lashing out (or being perceived as doing so) against one religion will most likely cause our country more harm than good and do almost nothing to change the religion we label as a threat. Attempting to denounce a religion in a foreign country borders on pointless. I'm all for cutting off aid/support for any state which sponsors a religion which is promoting or responsible for violence. Beyond that there isn't much we can do outside of our own boarders besides generating a great deal of ill will.
We have to recognize that Sunnis sanction and condone murder for religious reasons and that the root of that lies in their adherence to the literal translations of Muhammad's life as presented by their 6 Hadiths, which is the basis for their religion. If you are Sunni, you have to believe in Jihad and the killing of apostates and honor killings because Muhammad believed in these tenets and to deny this would brand you a heretic.

If we can at least recognize the Sunnis for what they are, we can formulate a realistic approach to stop the spread of their religious beliefs. Philosophically speaking, I'm just trying to find a common point of agreement on what religions are harmful to us directly.

I first asked if anyone disagrees with the fact that some religions sanction murder and there wasn't anyone that denied that it is indeed a fact. Now I'm giving an example where a specific religious leader of Sunni Muslims, sanctioned murder through Jihad. Is there anyone out there that disagrees with that?

Once I've gotten some feedback from the Forum, I would like to make a specific recommendation as to what we could do in this specific instance as just an example as to how we might be able to deal with this latest call to murder others in the name of religion.

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TomDavidson
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quote:
If you are Sunni, you have to believe in Jihad and the killing of apostates and honor killings because Muhammad believed in these tenets and to deny this would brand you a heretic.
Actually, I have several American Sunni friends and none of them believe in what you're saying they "have" to believe.
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Viking_Longship
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Bud

By your rationale we would also have to ban evangellical Christianity as it supposedly requires a literal interpretation of Levitical laws in the Old Testament. It also would call into question our relationship with Israel, a nation founded by a people whose religion condones murder.

There are reasonable approaches to this problem, yours isn't. It's also unconstitutional.

quote:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;
Cool off and try and think of something more reasonable.

[ June 11, 2013, 07:23 AM: Message edited by: Viking_Longship ]

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Viking_Longship
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Some of the capital crimes in the Torah:

quote:

Sacrificing to gods other than YHWH[2][3]
Passing children through the fire to/as [MLK]. The triconsonantal root MLK has traditionally been translated as if it were the name of an otherwise unattested deity - Moloch - but may just describe a type of sacrifice. It is generally thought that this refers to a form of Human sacrifice similar to that of which the Phoenicians (particularly in Carthage) have historically been widely accused[4] However, the Septuagint reads "You shall not give your seed to serve a ruler", suggesting that the root M-L-K should be more properly rendered as 'king/ruler'.
Worshiping Baal Peor[5]
False prophecy[6][7][8]
Necromancy, according to the masoretic text; specifically those who are masters over ghosts (Hebrew: Ba'al ob) and those who gain information from the dead (Hebrew: Yidde'oni).[9] The Septuagint instead condemns gastromancy (Greek: eggastrimuthos), and enchantment (Greek: epaoidos).[10]
According to the masoretic text, practitioners of kashaph[11] - incanting maleficium. According to the Septuagint version of the same passages, pharmakeia[12] - poisoners. Historically this passage has been translated into English using vague terminology, condemning witchcraft in general.[13]
Blasphemy[14]
Sabbath breaking[15][16][17]

Sexual practices

Rape by a man of a betrothed woman in the countryside[18]
Being either participant in consensual sexual activity, in which a betrothed woman consensually loses her virginity to a man[19]
Adultery with a married woman.[20]
Marrying one's wife's mother[21]
Certain forms of incest, namely if it involves the father's wife or a daughter-in-law.[22] Other forms of incest receive lesser punishment; sexual activity with a sister/stepsister is given excommunication for a punishment;[23] if it involves a brother's wife or an uncle's wife it is just cursed[24] and sexual activity with an aunt that is a blood relation is merely criticized.[25]
Certain sexual activities between males (Hebrew: zakhar) involving what the masoretic text literally terms lie lyings (of a) woman (Hebrew: tishkav mishkvei ishah),[26][27] and the Septuagint literally terms beds [verb] the woman's/wife's bed (Greek: koimethese koiten gynaikos);[28][29] the gender of the target of the command is commonly understood to be male, but not explicitly stated. The correct translation and interpretation of this passage, and its implications for Homosexuality in Judaism and Homosexuality in Christianity, are controversial. Translations into English are wide-ranging.[30][31]
Bestiality[32][33]


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Aris Katsaris
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quote:
have to recognize that Sunnis sanction and condone murder for religious reasons and that the root of that lies in their adherence to the literal translations of Muhammad's life as presented by their 6 Hadiths, which is the basis for their religion. If you are Sunni, you have to believe in Jihad and the killing of apostates and honor killings because Muhammad believed in these tenets and to deny this would brand you a heretic.
Previously you claimed that it was all about the religious *leaders*' proclamations. Now once again and predictably you change your tune to have it be about the beliefs and the prescriptions of the holy texts. But when people mention holy texts of other religions, you'll again change your tune to have it be about the religious proclamations.

This constant bait-and-switch is necessary because the especial vileness of Islam (compared to other monotheistic religions) is visible only in its current status quo, but you are seeking an religious-ideas warfare instead, not a war against mere present structures. So you must switch and switch and switch targets again.

Bud Martin, if you believed Islam true, but no less murderous than it currently is, would you really still be supporting an action plan against "the spread of their religious beliefs"? Would you be supporting an action against your *own* beliefs, merely because they also happened to instigate murder in others?

On my part I'm all in favour of action plans against the spread of ALL wrong beliefs, whether religious or not. So that includes an action plan against the spread of Islam -- and same with Christianity, Judaism, Scientology, astrology, paraskevidekatriaphobia, or the Copenhagen interpretation of Quantum Mechanics.

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D.W.
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quote:
I first asked if anyone disagrees with the fact that some religions sanction murder and there wasn't anyone that denied that it is indeed a fact. Now I'm giving an example where a specific religious leader of Sunni Muslims, sanctioned murder through Jihad. Is there anyone out there that disagrees with that?
You state the obvious, then ask if we disagree (what you mean is does anyone refute the validity of the quote attributed to them) that some leaders are urging religiously sanctioned murder.

Everyone here agrees with this point. There really isn’t a discussion on this topic until you leap to conclusions about what must be done about it. The only points of contention is as Tom has pointed out a people even sharing a believe which includes justifiable murder are not monolithic in their acceptance of those beliefs. They certainly do not all act upon them in the same way and in many cases risk death in speaking out against those who do promote the use of those types of justifiable murders.

Let me ask you a question. Do you think it is at all possible that our government (maybe with allies) would under any possible circumstances start what amounts to a war on Islam without the political cover of promoting democracy or providing humanitarian aid to stop sectarian violence? If such a decision was made to “stamp out” a religion how would you envision it being prosecuted?

That was well said AI. What we want to “stamp out” and stop from spreading is the belief that religiously justified murder is somehow a valid justification to excuse the murder. This certainly isn’t the case in the US.

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Wayward Son
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quote:
You are proving my point that a belief system that forces its own followers to obey its tenets absolutely upon pain of violence or death and threatens Jihad against any who oppose its expansion, doesn’t deserve to be considered a legitimate recognized religion.
You keep saying that Islam is a belief system. It is not. It is many similar belief systems, which share some aspects but not others. Portraying it as a single, monolithic belief system is denying reality.

The fact that a vast majority of Western Moslems do not believe your statement above shows that it is not the religion you believe it to be.

quote:
Are you saying that we shouldn’t identify Jihad as a form of murder when it is used to attack westerners, like 9/11? How can calling these murderers and all those that sanctioned their actions as co-conspirators to murder, be considered as enabling them?
We do call them murders. We have always called them murders. And those that sanction and praise their actions are those who sacntion and praise murderers. We have always believed that and said it.

But you want to make everyone who is classified as a Moslem to be considered someone who sanctions and praises such murders. Many, if not most, do not. So how can you automatically condemn them for it? [Confused]

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Wayward Son
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Here, BTW, is an article that links to some Muslim scholars denouncing terrorism and extremism as a violation of true Islam. Is this the type of denunciations you are looking for?

[ June 11, 2013, 06:16 PM: Message edited by: Wayward Son ]

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