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Author Topic: Prediction: blackmail leading up to the SSM decision.
Pete at Home
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The next weeks leading up to the SCOTUS decision will show big moral exhibition shows of the few GOP senators who turn down the blackmail threats that are causing others to knuckle under and change position.

This is how it's done.

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starLisa
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It couldn't be the opposite, right? That many of these GOP senators really don't have a problem with SSM, but have held back from supporting it because they were afraid of the repercussions, and now that they're seeing how widespread support for marriage equality is, they're feeling safe enough to add their voices?

It's not uncommon for people to assume the worst of the other side. I did that with you, and was apparently wrong. Maybe you're wrong about this.

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djquag1
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How are they being blackmailed, exactly?

It seems to me that they're scared of getting voted out of office for voting against SSM, because enough of the population who was against it has gotten old and died. So now, they're not against SSM. They're representing their constituency.

This is how democracy works, right?

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Pete at Home
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Accountability to a representative's constituents is not "blackmail." That's how a Republic works.

"How are they being blackmailed, exactly?"

The way the gay lobby has traditionally blackmails folks. Threat of exposure of some incident of gay sex, or something like that. Lisa, you made assumptions about me that had no basis in my prior actions. Some of the organizations supporting SSM have used blackmail of government representatives before, and some even have had open discussions about it, and justified their actions, when they got caught.

Besides, my prediction is that some blackmail targets are going to say no, and that we're going to see at least one anti-ssm Congress person exposed in the next few weeks for some typical Congressional peccadillo, probably a sexual one.

[ April 03, 2013, 08:05 AM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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TomDavidson
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quote:
we're going to see at least one anti-ssm Congress person exposed in the next few weeks for some typical Congressional peccadillo
As part of the Queer Conspiracy, we should also expect the sun to rise in the east for the next couple of days.
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D.W.
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quote:
The way the gay lobby has traditionally blackmails folks. Threat of exposure of some incident of gay sex, or something like that.
Then they should use it as an opportunity. Come out and then explain why despite being gay themselves they are against SSM.

I got no problem with people concealing their lifestyle. I will admit however to taking pleasure in watching hypocrites with power over others made very uncomfortable.

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Pyrtolin
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The biggest form of "blackmail" that we're likely to see in action in corporate campaign donors threatening to back other candidates because of how anti-competitive it is to have to support the current bias in the system.
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:
we're going to see at least one anti-ssm Congress person exposed in the next few weeks for some typical Congressional peccadillo
As part of the Queer Conspiracy, we should also expect the sun to rise in the east for the next couple of days.
To some, blackmail is as natural at sunrise. Fortunately the debates a few years ago show that many in the gay community were not comfortable with blackmail as an MO.

DW, it's like this. what a Congress representative does on the floor of Congress, is supposed to represent the people. What to Congress representative does in the men's restroom, not so much.

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D.W.
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I agree with that point Pete. I have no problem with someone stating that they are taking a position contrary to their personal choices in order to better represent their constituency. In fact I would probably vote for this person in a heartbeat if I thought they were sincere.
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
The biggest form of "blackmail" that we're likely to see in action in corporate campaign donors threatening to back other candidates because of how anti-competitive it is to have to support the current bias in the system.

Bribery =\= blackmail, Pyr. And I don't think that's going to happen here. Corporations are trying to ride what they wrongly perceive as a wave of popularity. They arent the players on this issue; they are simply being played.
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NobleHunter
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Is there a specific incident you're talking about, Pete? I know prominent hypocrites have been outed, but I haven't heard of blackmail, i.e. "do this or we'll out you."
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Pete at Home
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Do you know of the exchange of articles that i referred to, where there was some debate in the gay rights community whether the practice of blackmail was justifiable?
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NobleHunter
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I recall some discussion on the justification of forcible outing, but not on blackmail.
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Pete at Home
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Do you recognize that the crucifixion of Matthew Shepphard was not only a crime against Shepphard personally, but an implied threat against the whole gay community?
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D.W.
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How does that related to the blackmail issue Pete?
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NobleHunter
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Okay. But doesn't blackmail require a promise to withhold the information? The idea seemed to be "if you're a hypocrite, we will out you," not "support gay rights or else."

Or are you suggesting that "leaders" in the gay community have proof that some anti-gay legislators (or more relevantly, Supremes) have engaged in scandal worthy behavior and are sitting on it (snicker) pending the decision on SSM?

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Pete at Home
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Anti ssm =\= anti gay, NH. Do you consider Paul Wellstone "anti-gay"?
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by NobleHunter:
Okay. But doesn't blackmail require a promise to withhold the information? The idea seemed to be "if you're a hypocrite, we will out you," not "support gay rights or else."

Almost. It involves a threat and all the statues that i have seen, specify that the threat may be explicit or implicit.

"Hi senator, the vote is coming up and i thought that you ought to know that GLAAD is aware of your activities with your intern. We have picture. Have a nice day."

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D.W.
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So the hypothetical politician is dishonest AND too dumb to get away with it. The faster and more spectacularly you could get rid of them the better IMO. While I do worry about others abusing weakness in our politicians for their own gains sympathy never factors into it for me.

I suppose anyone with the moral character and ineptitude to find themselves in such a position may actually believe going along with the blackmailer will make the problem go away. Almost begs for us to use our tax dollars to have rotating private investigators shadow all of our representatives.

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TomDavidson
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quote:
the vote is coming up and i thought that you ought to know that GLAAD is aware of your activities with your intern.
It's worth noting that this is a federal crime. Do you have any evidence that groups are engaging in it?
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D.W.
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The thread topic did start with "Prediction:" I thought he was just picking up the slack for Nostra-G#'s doom and gloom.
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NobleHunter
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
Anti ssm =\= anti gay, NH. Do you consider Paul Wellstone "anti-gay"?

There's a correlation. Or are you predicting no observable relationship between anti-SSM beliefs and anti-Gay beliefs?

And, who? Though a brief survey of Wikipedia fails to provide sufficient information to answer the anti-gay question. The closest was his support of DOMA and a single vote does not a bigot make.

[ April 03, 2013, 01:21 PM: Message edited by: NobleHunter ]

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TomDavidson
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quote:
The thread topic did start with "Prediction:"
Which is why I noted that predicting that a homophobic Congressman would get caught in a gay sex scandal some time in the next few months is like predicting that the sun will rise in the east. [Smile]
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by NobleHunter:
And, who? Though a brief survey of Wikipedia fails to provide sufficient information to answer the anti-gay question. The closest was his support of DOMA and a single vote does not a bigot make.

Paul Wellstone was a strong supporter of gay rights, and helped to draft a great deal of key pro-gay legislation. He also voted for DOMA, believing that marriage meant a union of man and woman. That didn't stop some members of the gay rights movement comparing his death to the death of General Lamarque, days after Wellstone's plane crash.

It's just not very convenient having a memory that lasts more than 10 years, in a moral universe where the sign posts and goal posts keep getting moved.

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NobleHunter
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He also apparently believed he was mistaken.
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
He also voted for DOMA, believing that marriage meant a union of man and woman.
Yo mean the vote he wrote this about:
quote:
"I might have rationalized my vote by making myself believe that my honest position was opposition. This vote was an obvious trap for a senator like me, who was up for reelection. Did I convince myself that I could gleefully deny Republicans this opportunity? . . . When Sheila and I attended a Minnesota memorial service for Matthew Shepard, I though to myself, "Have I taken a position that contributed to a climate of hatred?" Of course, I had never believed this when I voted for [Defense of Marriage Act, an effort to prohibit same-sex marriage.] But if you deny people who are in a stable, loving relationship the right to marry, do you deny them their humanity? I still wonder if I did the right thing.
Seems more like he cast the vote as a way to shield himself from attacks when trying to get reelected than on any direct principle.

[ April 03, 2013, 02:14 PM: Message edited by: Pyrtolin ]

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Pete at Home
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Interesting. Could you link me? I'm curious what was in the elipses. Wellstone's gay eulogizers tended to cast it a sincere but not anti-gay vote. OTOH, I don't like the part of DOMA that withholds recognition from SSUs.

Also, asking ain't the same as the affirmative.

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Pyrtolin
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It's from his autobiography:
http://www.amazon.com/Conscience-Liberal-Reclaiming-Compassionate-Agenda/dp/081664179X

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Adam Masterman
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
The next weeks leading up to the SCOTUS decision will show big moral exhibition shows of the few GOP senators who turn down the blackmail threats that are causing others to knuckle under and change position.

This is how it's done.

Who has "knuckled under", and who was blackmailing them (and for what)? Because that's one heck of a slander to make up.
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Pete at Home
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Adam, do you understand the difference between present tense and future tense?

Setting aside your confusion between slander and libel, and the fact that TRUTH is a defense for defamation, I don't think that a prediction of the future can be construed as any sort of defamation.

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Adam Masterman
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"the blackmail threats that are causing others to knuckle under and change position."

That's present tense (present indicative), meaning that it is currently occurring. Did you mis-speak, or can you name the parties involved?

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Pete at Home
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Ah yes. That part was indeed present indicative. [Big Grin]

Am I the only one that finds the timing of these sudden changes of position fishy? [Big Grin]

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TomDavidson
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I think it's just the political tide. We passed a tipping point, and now being a bigot works against you.
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DonaldD
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Seriously - the Republicans are realizing that being perceived as anti-immigrant, anti-government, anti-woman, anti-gay, and anti-non-white is a long term recipe for electoral irrelevance.

It's not like only their position on gays is evolving...

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Pete at Home
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Seriously. And this is being decided by individual male Republicans, in the weeks leading up to the SSM decision going before SCOTUS, right in the middle of a massive brainwashing campaign where corporations are jumping up and saying me too, where the news does back flips over stories of marionette boy writing a Supreme Court justice? this is all about as believable as a North Korean "spontaneous" protest.
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TomDavidson
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When legal segregation began to fall in the South, it happened pretty quickly, too, and within a decade it was political suicide for any national figure to be openly racist.
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Pete at Home
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Are we now pretending that it's political suicide to oppose ssm? What I see is a big phony "spontaneous" show orchestrated to sway a Supreme Court that's not supposed to be swayed by trends and whims, and that's supposed to strictly consider the Constitution and the law.
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TomDavidson
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quote:
Are we now pretending that it's political suicide to oppose ssm?
Yes.
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Adam Masterman
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:

Am I the only one that finds the timing of these sudden changes of position fishy? [Big Grin]

No one who has read a poll recently finds these fishy; not unless they have a seriously rose-colored view of how politics works. But even if it were strange, I'm not seeing any justification for fabricating accusations from whole cloth like this.
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DonaldD
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
Are we now pretending that it's political suicide to oppose ssm?

In vast swathes of the country, yes. But more importantly long term, the national policy of the Republican Party, the one that will label every regional politician, is changing in an exercise of electoral self-defense.
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