This is topic Time for Introduction threads in forum General Comments at The Ornery American Forum.

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Posted by Redskullvw (Member # 188) on :
In light of current events, and after a couple of comments given to me by other members of Ornery I realized its time for another meet and greet thread.

With this weeks events we have prompted many of our former lurkers to become active posters. In addition members I do not recognize are repleat. This isnt a thread to present your entire biography. It is just a short a sweet way of saying who you are and what type of American, or in the case of Limey etc, foreigner you are.

For a bunch of us this will be a rehash thread, but bear with it and say who you are where your from and anything else you think is important.

I am from Athens, Georgia. Im 33 and hold degrees in Modern German History and East African Anthropology plus a couple minors and 15 hours short of a never to be completed masters. I love America, but I am also what most damn Yankees call a Rebel. Go state’s rights and the Confederacy I always say.

I drive very fast cars, Im single, and I love my pets especially Jack Frost Lee the Trench Beagle. I tend to be a Royalist. And piss many people off here because I also belive a fascist state is the most suitible form of government for most citizens of this country.

I am short with my words, terrible with my grammer and spelling, and as so many have noted.. brutally blunt and without tact.


Posted by Mike_W (Member # 202) on :
Okey Dokey,
I'm one of the resident Canadians on the board. Age 33, involved, degree in Economics (with assorted dabbling in Philosophy and Poli Sci) and taking a health break from a career as a Business and Technology consultant, and small business owner.

Politically, I'm a hard core moderate, finding dogma and ideology to be poor bases on which to build process and policy that works. While it’s grossly simplistic, I could be characterized as being right of centre in my own nation, and, by comparison, left of centre by American standards. On America, while I have had and will continue to have issues with aspects of US policy, I have always felt that it did a remarkable job of being a responsible superpower. The things I admire most in America are its commitment to basic freedoms, and a general desire to do the “right” thing.

I like fast cars, motorcycles, bicycles, airplanes, boats, remote wilderness, the Blues, great beer, good scotch and average port.

I can't spell or type, which is evident when I am too lazy to spellcheck.


[This message has been edited by Mike_W (edited September 15, 2001).]

Posted by Everard on :
I'm 22, male, with no degrees in anything yet. I'm taking time off from school due to major mental health issues, but will finish a degree in Philosophy with a physics minor at some point in the near future. I am also somewhat of an amateur historian. I have my areas of expertise, and use them in all sorts of arguments.

I am a communist, and I hate the USSR's political system more then you do. Because it screwed up everyone's conception of what communism is. However, I'm also strongly in favor of the democratic method. I'm an atheist, but am strongly tied to my family's religious of Judaism.

I am a walking contradiction But consistency is the defense of small minds.

Posted by Zyne (Member # 117) on :
Hi I'm Zyne, a 28 year old single no-kids female American living in Dallas, TX. I'm a tax attorney and I can't do math . Degrees in music, law, and tax.

I'm loosely libertarian and rabidly atheist. I live urban, don't eat meat, and don't own a car.

I'm reasonably into 'classical' music and try to read as much as I can. Lately on music I'm into Schnittke and Zimmerman and everything Daniel Hope records, and in books into Kundera, Eco, and Dick. So, contemporary on music and a few decades behind on books.

I tend to get overly emotional in my posts, and don't know how to spellcheck.

Posted by Kenny Payne (Member # 503) on :
Hi, I'm amazed at how many of us like fast cars. I have a 1986 Porsche 944 turbo that's scary fast. My daily driver is a 99 VW Passat 1.8t that's chipped to 200 hp.

I'm 44, and I work in Information Security/Network Infrastructure. I've lived in Minneapolis, Mn. for the last 20 years. I grew up in North Philadelphia. Redskullvw, my father's side of the family is in Eastern Tennessee, near Chattanooga. I recently inherited my deceased father's home down there. I guess that makes me a Reb too. Actually, I've read a ton of Civil War history. I'd love to discuss it sometime. I've had some very good times in Athens Ga. I used to do sound reinforcement for bands and we used to play the 40 Watt on occasion. It's a great town.

I have about 2 master's degrees worth of credits, mainly in English, History, Political Science, and Philosophy. My only actual degree is an associate degree in Electronics Technology that I've used to make a living.

OSC is about my favorite author. Having grown up in the city where the Constitution, Declaration of Independence, Federalist Papers, etc. were written and/or debated, I have a certain reverence for these documents. I'm considering writing an essay on the subject for submittal to this site.

In general, I'm a rabid idealist and a closet socialist. I believe very strongly that there is a huge disparity between what America represents and how we actually conduct ourselves internationally, especially in the the third world. I,like most everyone else, feel that the perpetrators of the recent terrorist attacks should be strung up by their genitals, but I don't believe that the US is blameless.

I'm a parent. I have a five year old son who is my heart and soul. I like to fish. I thnk I mentioned the cars.


Kenny Payne

[This message has been edited by Kenny Payne (edited September 16, 2001).]

Posted by Daedalus (Member # 408) on :
I'm Eduardo, just come in from one of OSC's other websites, I'm still in high school, interested in a career in medicine.

Politically, I'm liberal, because I disagree with the core fundamentals of conservative thinking: elitist society, and "every man for himself" philosophy.

Religiously, I'm an atheist, because I've never quite been able to brainwash myself into believing that there's an all-powerful being out there, let alone that we know his name, that he cares for us, that he impreganted a virgin... The list goes on...

I love athletics, particularly track, though, ironically enough, I've never gotten into driving fast cars. I DO enjoy working on them, though, if that makes up for anything...

I'm anal when it comes to spelling and correct grammar, despite being educated in the state of California.

I love music (modern pop culture DOESN'T qualify as "music"), especially the farther-out bands, such as the Afghan Whigs, Tool, Bad Religion, etc. I also love art, especially oil paintings. I'm in the process of writing a book; or, at least, writing out the plot.

Oh, and since this IS the first time I've introduced myself here, I've got throw in this quote from a movie I saw a long time ago (no, I DON'T remember the name...): "I'm here to kick ass and chew bubble gum. (dramatic pause) And I'm all outta bubble gum."

Posted by LetterRip (Member # 310) on :
SWM seeks... oops wrong introduction.

I was born and raised in Alaska (I'm 26, lived there till I was 23...), and have spent all my summers since the age of six (asside from this summer) killing poor defenseless salmon as a commercial fisherman. (Yeah, if killing fish causes negative karma, I'm doomed... but in my defense they would have rotted to death within a week otherwise and the fry (fish babies...) would have starved to death due to overpopulaton - maybe I was doing mercy killings)

I have a degree in psychology, bio/neuro focus, am a dedicated martial artist, and have read and studied more on social policy and leadership than can possibly be healthy <grin>.

I'm extraordinarily ignorant about history, and have recently begun to address that flaw.

I like fast woma - er... that is cars but am waiting for the big bucks to roll in before I buy one.

I'm currently employed at a startup company (no not computer related... we make an innovative building product...), which will make me rich beyond my wildest dreams <maybe..>.

In my spare time (spare time? what is that?) I play football, rollerblade, and write 'screeds' on social policy.


Posted by ALG (Member # 507) on :
Hi, I'm a blessedly foolish idealist hailing from Indiana. I'm married to a wonderfully rational man who keeps me in balance. We have a precocious three-year-old.

I enjoy gardening, am a voracious reader, and am fighting my way through rejection letters to become a Published Writer.

My main occupation is mothering aforementioned three-year-old while maintaining a smoothly running household. The latter is usually a fluke.

I've recently realized how very provinicial I am, never having lived out of my home state. I have a close-knit extended family but very few intimate friends. I am smart, shy, and generally labelled as the weird one. That just means I think a lot and ask what if? and why? questions.

I'm two years away from 30. My birthday was last Tuesday.

Posted by Everard on :
Happy birthday!
Posted by Kyle French (Member # 105) on :
School drove you crazy, ev? Or was it just us? And if that was a rude comment, I apologize.

In studying the last semester or so, I have discovered that the best label for what I am is a modern day Puritan. Which basically translates into "a religious wacko." But at least I can think. I know a lot of religious wackos who can't think and only believe a thing because that was what they told them.

So. My religious convictions are what my whole world revolves around. I interpret everything through them. And those views are both conservative and radical. Which means, if you can find it in the bible, I probably believe in it, to an extent that would be scary if I weren't such a nice guy.

Case in point. I find women attractive who don't wear makeup, have long hair, who prefer long skirts, and who dream of raising 8 children. No, I don't like fast women. In my defense, my sister's haircolor changes weekly (my favorite color was green. I got to call her Verdita), she almost never wears a skirt, and she has seven or eight piercings, including two in her tongue that almost gave my mom a heart attack. We get along fine.

I don't think I'm too terribly intollerant. I figure if you're going to hell, I should at least try to make the trip as pleasant as possible.

Currently I am a capitalist, though I suspect I'll turn communist just after the Second Coming.

Posted by jeniwren (Member # 255) on :
I'm a 33 year old pregnant married woman with an 8 year old son by a previous marriage. I grew up in Anchorage, leaving there with a great sigh of relief when I was 27. I too have taken great pleasure in killing small numbers of fish both in Alaska and Washington, which is where I now call home. When I was 30, I discovered that I liked working with kids, so I've spent every school year and summer doing something with the children's programs at various churches.

I like fast cars, but prefer fast motorcycles, a passion I have given up for the time being. I like singing, mostly in large and small choral groups, another passion I've given up for the time being. Someday I'd like to be grown up enough to write something worthwhile, but in the meantime, I love to read, a passion I don't think I could give up if I tried.

I'm very fortunate to have a job that allows me to work at home, telecommuting. Various wholesale distribution companies throughout the US and Canada call me when they have problems with their business software. It's a small network of very fine people to work with, and I absolutely love my job.

Politically, I'm woefully ignorant, so I come here and become encouraged to learn more. I do follow the general conservative-Christian outlook. I'm pro-life, but believe abortion should be legal. I don't support gay marriage, but find myself loving at least one gay man for himself. I hope I wasn't the only one who laughed out loud when Clinton was shown hugging the frantic and upset females seeking loved ones lost, following Tuesday's events. It was dreadful, but I just couldn't help myself.

Posted by leave (Member # 466) on :
I'm 19, a college student at brandeis studying to be an english teacher. OSC is my favorite author, though eddings rocks too. I am an agnostic who wants to believe in God, but hasn't figured out how to yet, am still seeking knowledge.
I want to teach because I figure the more I can help people think on their own, the better of the world will be.
I like women.
I don't care about cars one way or the other, if it has 4 wheels and an engine I am happy "you've got a nice shaggin' waggin'"
Track is the only sport there is. I am a sprinter on the team here, my coach is an idiot, but that's ok.
I like discussing topics that are discussed here, though for one reason or another, I've lurked since the founding days of the site. I love philosophy though I feel every discussion will always end in "i'm right" "no, I am" "no I am" etc.
Anyhoo, HI!
Posted by msquared (Member # 113) on :
Well this sounds like a thread that I would start Red, therefore I love it.

I am a 38yr. old married male, two kids, age 9 and 6. I am the resident conservative Republican, but according to a test Letterip had us take a few weeks back it looks like I am a closet Libertarian. Maybe someday I will come out of the closet.

I live in the bithplace of aviation, and that is not North Carolina. If you do not know where it is look in my profile to get the real answer.

I work for a company that takes big mill rolls of paper and make little rolls of paper out of them. I do not have a job title so I call myself a utility infielder.

My degree was 12 years and three schools to get, but I finally got a degree in Accounting that I almost never use.

I like to hunt and fish but if you have ever seen me do it you know that no animals or fish are ever in danger when I go hunting or fishing.

I can hardly wait for the new Harry Potter movie to come out in a couple of months, and am almost having a fit waiting for the new Lord of the Rings movie due out in Dec.

I love to read and watch reality TV. Loved Survivor, The Mole and Murder in Small Town X, hated Big Brother and Love Cruise.

I may add more later.


Posted by Karim_the_Heretic (Member # 293) on :
OK, I'm a 26 y.o. single man from Durham, NC. My family and I imigrated from Lebanon when I was 2. I've got a degree in Industrial design and speak English and Japanese and understand Arabic mostly. I'm both a libertarian, and a Libertarian. After spending the better part of my life as an unsuccessful agnostic, I now find myself an Apatheist.

I love good food, good movies, good music, good company, and good books. I'll read anything from Robert Jordan to Tom Robbins.

I'm a woodworker, LEGO maniac, scale modeler, intense rationalist, hopeless romantic, and Jack-of-All-Trades in training.

I'm also in disturbingly increasing frequency accused of being from a different planet.

[This message has been edited by Karim_the_Heretic (edited September 16, 2001).]

Posted by BillyB (Member # 254) on :
Hello, I'm a 21 yr old college student at the University of Minnesota, and I live in St. Paul. Next May I will have a degree in genetics, cell, and developmental biology with minors in biochemistry and the history of science and technology. I've been doing research in a molecular biology lab since my freshman year, and my first paper should be published next month. (Yay for me.) Next year I plan to go to U-W-Seattle for graduate school and study astrobiology.

I am very liberal, especially in social issues and somewhat less in economic issues, but that definitely does not mean that I'm a Democrat. I think the two-party system is the biggest problem with our government. I think that the U.S. is the greatest country in the modern era, but it has made some very grave mistakes that we must keep in mind when judging the actions of other. My view is that we should work to ensure that all governments of the world are democratic, but capitalism does not necessarily go hand in hand with democracy.

My hobbies include boomerangs, writing plays, and football. I hate cars.



Posted by Cedrios on :
I am 19.5 year old Pol. Sci. major @ Wichita State University, hoping to transfer to UC next year. Though I lean toward the DEM.'s on ideology, i am not declared, and consider myself a hard-core mod. Born is Seattle, WA. I have lived in CA, AK, OR, UT, KS, MO, NC, VT, TX, of course WA(my fav.). Not military, just didn't get along well with family, and lets just say I didn't enjoy my stay in UT.

I don't affiliate with any culture, for all practical concerns I am an athiest. I don't believe true morality exists, only ethics. Also, I believe pyschology to be a natural science and dismiss all examples of any kind of spirituality. Privately, I don't think humans are suited to teach or judge each other.

Posted by Johnny High Ground (Member # 20) on :
I'm a 27-year-old male currently living in Oak Park, IL. (About to move to Elmhurst, though. Like any one of you know where that is.) College educated, with a Bachelor's in Philosophy from Nowhere You've Heard Of College on the outskirts of Cleveland, Ohio--where I'm originally from. Before you oooh or aaah, let me tell you that our PHL department was two profs strong. And one of them was a complete dolt. Philosophy students, you'll get a kick out of this: I MAJORED in Philosophy, and in all my years of school we spent exactly ONE WEEK learning about Immanuel Kant.

Socially liberal, financially conservative, which makes me--you guessed it--Libertarian. Not that I "officially" belong to the party or anything; mob behavior gives me the willies. You won't find me line dancing, singing the National Anthem at a sporting event, or playing sports, for that matter.

I'm a musician by inclination (see for yourself here) and a magazine editor by trade, at The Official U.S. PlayStation Magazine. That's right, I write about video games for a living. One of my proudest moments was reading the columns OSC wrote for our mag.

I am a Christian by ideological association--not dogmatic obligation--and Buddhist in the same respect. Raised Catholic, I'm waiting for an acceptable alternative, or a reason to return to the fold. I'm carefully hopeful.

Which describes my entire outlook on life, really: Hope for the best, work for the best, accept whatever comes.

I read voraciously (started and finished Seventh Son yesterday) and devour music in similar fashion. I listen to EVERYthing, except heavy electronic and most modern country. (Daedalus, if you wanna be creeped out for a second, re-listen to "Skyscraper" off Bad Religion's Recipe for Hate.) Favorite author is OSC, though his increasingly vocal political and social positions are making that more difficult. I just try to remind myself that the message is independent from the messenger. Favorite music is a little-known band from the U.K. called New Model Army. You must all listen to them. Now.

Er, is that it? I think that's it.


[This message has been edited by Johnny High Ground (edited September 16, 2001).]

Posted by Van Aaron (Member # 98) on :
Hi, all!

I am 35, happily married, with two kids, ages 5 and 1. I grew up in Seattle, went to school in California, and now live in Denver.

I'm a lawyer, which is great fun when I have a case turning on significant legal issues (two so far have gotten to the Supreme Court) and often tiresome when I don't.

I think of myself as quite conservative, yet I always piss off my Republican friends for not siding with them on social issues like abortion.

I am closing in on 2000 volumes in my SF collection, huge numbers of which are yet unread. I bounce around between other odd hobbies - right now I'm in the process of trying every type of fine tea in the world, and learning about the tarot of all things.

Posted by Kentuckian (Member # 101) on :
I am a 23 year old male... as of the 12th, which was not as much fun, as you can imagine, as birthdays often are. I live in the great, but much maligned, Commonwealth of Kentucky, particularly in the far Western end of it that is so often cut off the road map and stuck in a little box in the corner. It's a strange part of the universe that can't quite decide if it's part of the South or part of the Midwest. Both regions claim we're part of the other!

I'm a libertarian but not a Libertarian. I'm a rationalist, which means I'm an agnostic. I'm a moral absolutist but I believe there are only a handfull of moral absolutes, everything else is gray.

I've been to nearly every state east of the Rockies, Ontario and Quebec. I've met lots of folks from all over the US and Canada, plus several good friends in the UK, Netherlands, and Japan, but still find my home town the most pleasant place to live I've so far discovered.

I'm part of a large family which is very tight, I'm perilously close to being engaged, and I'm a generally happy and well-adjusted guy, which is rare in libertarians, I know. I spend most of my free time teaching kids to play band instruments, which is great fun, and writing. I'm on here entirely too often.

I'm a third year senior at Murray State University (here's a lesson kids: don't change your major, and definitely don't do it twice) and in the very near future I'll be graduating with a History degree and a secondary certification to teach. As a teacher I'll have to get a Masters, and it wouldn't surprise me at all if I got a Doctorate at some point in the future.

OSC is a great writer but we disagree on nearly everything, RAH is a worse writer, but I agree with him much more often, and there is rarely a moment when the Dave Matthews Band is not in my CD player.


Posted by Sacrip (Member # 361) on :
Another lurker comes forth.

I'm 28, white male and engaged. I make my living with the U.S Army as a sergeant in the Signal Corps. I'm extreme left wing, or right wing, depending on my mood swing, so lets say I'm moderate.

OSC is, of course, my favorite author, with Spider Robinson as a close second. I don't have hobbies to speak of, but I'm working on it.

Posted by Kyle French (Member # 105) on :
I've heard that being engaged can be quite a distracting hobby.
Posted by pilgrim (Member # 419) on :
I'm a longtime lurker, 43, lived most of my life in and around Atlanta, GA., though I now live in eastern Alabama. I've been married for nearly 23 years to the girl I fell in love with when I was 13 years old. We have 3 girls, one will be 16 week after next, one is 9 and one will be 2 week after next. I tend to be slightly right of center politically, though I don't find any niche a particularly comfortable fit. I like fast cars, motorcycles (though I haven't owned one in several years), astronomy, and music (I play several instruments with varying degrees of skill) and tend to be overly parenthetical when I write (though I'm trying to be better <g> ). I am a voracious reader. I am hard-headed and opinionated though tolerant and usually tactful (unless I'm ticked off).
Posted by soulfly (Member # 363) on :
i am a 24 year old male. been in the navy for a few years now in the crypto community. very, very excited about heading ack to the states for my next duty station in the DC area, but being overseas has been an amazing experience.
my political views, like my life, is in a bit of a transitional stage.
right now i am reading a great book by Alain de Botton, 'On Love'.
my handle comes from one of my favorite bands.
Posted by Pete (Member # 2495) on :
I am a writer in my thirties. I was born a US citizen but spent most of my childhood outside the United States, and felt like a foreigner when I came to this country at age 17. I have a MA in English, and have taught a range of University and Community college classes ranging from Anatomy to bioethics to technical writing to speed reading.

I consider myself both a liberal and a republican in the classic sense of both words. The modern labels just don't work for me. In arguments of polarized controversy, I tend to stand for a third position that few people have thought of -- for example I lump extreme "pro-life" and "pro choice" groups under the category "anti-brain" and consider myself "pro-brain" -- believing that we should treat a fetus with brainwaves as a human with rights but not imbue a clump of zygote cells with any sort of human rights. My ideal society slightly resembles Heinlein's -- a situation where only veterans of public service (military, firefighter, etc.) are allowed to vote, even though such a system would deprive me of my vote.

My politics are based on personal principle, not on alignment with a particular party, so I tend to get irritated when someone consistently lumps with a position that I do not hold. But I am learning to be more polite about this, realizing that no one here does this maliciously.

Posted by Dan Allen (Member # 238) on :
42 year old male. If I read this right, I share a birthdate with ALG. Born in the shadows of Grand Coulee Dam, spent most of my youth west of Seattle. Like others on here, I spent many summers commercial fishing of the coast.
Spent 2 years in Germany with the Army, have lived in WA, CA, UT, and now AZ.
My wife and I have 5 children; 17, 15, 12, 8, and 3, and can't spend near as much time with them as I would like to due to my *shudder* job as a electrical engineer with a rocket company.
Politically, I tend to lean towards the republicans; but only because they alone stand a chance of competing against the other's.
Posted by Dom Peralt (Member # 14) on :
Well, I'm a 22 year old law student out in Springfield, MA. I got my B.S. in Biochemistry with a minor in law. I'm currently unattached. Politically, I'm both libertarian and Libertarian, and am quite active in the Libertarian Party of Massachusetts. I've been here at Ornery since its inception, though I took a leave of absence for a bit, but now I'm back and happy to be so.
Posted by Krya (Member # 394) on :
I'm a 25yo secretary/bartender/college student/single mother of a, a-hem, lively four year old and our alter ego, the mommy elephant.

In college I'm pursuing a degree in.... well, let's just that a degree will be a mere by-product of the experience. Ach, all part of my master plan to prove life to be a mobius strip and take over the world.


Posted by John3haha (Member # 292) on :
I am a 36 year old male, blessed with a happy marraige for 12.5 years (plus an interesting five year roller coaster ride before tying the know). We have three kids ages 8.5, 7 and 5. I work as a banker, and have a strange fondness for figuring out unusual financing opportunities. I have degrees in Business and Econ, with a minor in poetry after finding I could not handle the math to remain a physics major. I live near Atlanta.

My great hobby is to play games, preferably some of the better German imported board games now more widely available. Over Labor Day, I spent eight hours in a brutal two player game against a friend at a local tournament and consider than immense fun.

I read a lot, most heavily in the broad catagory of "mystery" (Walter Mosley, Dashiel Hammett and Robert Parker can be great) and "sci fi" though I dabble too. I try to listen to a range of music, but generally like blues and the better mainstream "alternative" stuff.

Politically, I came here in response to an OSC comment about the "decline of America" which I still do not fully understand. Some points about the perceived arrogance of US policy have become clearer in recent days (great Op Ed pieces in the Wall Street the past two days). I grew up liberal in Oregon, even worked for Senator Wyden when in college, but have become more moderate. I have great faith in markets and capitalism, but feel there needs to be more equality of opportunity.

Oh, I am a Catholic who has great respect for and some knowledge of several other religions.

I tend to babble on way too long too. John

Posted by Jon Camp (Member # 192) on :
28 yo male, born and raised in the NW Chicago suburbs (Palatine) so yes, Johnny High ground, I do know where Oak Park and Elmhurst are. I was in Lombard just last week. . . .

Anyway, moved to Draper, UT 2 yrs ago, and even though I'm Mormon, I don't like being around so many of them, so can't wait until I finish my Computer Science Degree in another year or so and can move back out to "the real world."

Married 5 years, 3 kids, 4, 2, and 6 mths. I too am a "conservative" but fail to specify a party, though I have yet to have voted for anything other than straight ticket Republican. I do try to see other viewpoints, but have a hard time with anything I think is "stupid" unless there's a really good argument to back it up (thanks Ev, you keep me honest, and I've learned a lot from you. Still disagree with 90% of what you say, but . . .)

Anyway, that's me!

Posted by Everard on :
Hey, as long as I make you think about why you're right and I'm wrong, I'm doing my job, right ?

I don't think I could have received a nicer compliment. Thank you very much...

Posted by The Human Commodity (Member # 500) on :

I'm 20 (almost 21), engaged, and a college student currently. I am pursuing a major in English, double emphasis on Lit and Writing, with 2 minors - Chinese and East Asia Studies, which weighed out the other 2 minors I was interested in - history of science and anthropology. My fiancee is an anthropology major, with minors in east asia studies, chinese, and english lit. She is also one of the resources I use most often.

As for hobbies? I'm into computer some... I've done some gaming, did a little programming in high school though now I don't go beyond html, or working with java or flash apps. I've done a little web design but right now that's more or less in the past.

I'm a writer, mostly of poetry, because I'm slightly ADHD which tends to interfere with sticking with the novels, though I have written some short fiction.

I'm also a musician - I play drums (8 years) guitar (4 years) bass (3 years) and piano (11 years) and I have a multitracker, so I enjoy putting together songs with it, in fact I started out college as a Music Composition major (and probably finished enough coursework to get a minor in music, if they offered such things). Mostly, though, that's just entertainment.

I, like many others it seems, came from Hatrack originally. I'm only into politics as a hobby, it tends to make me too angry.

I am a Christian, though I admit a somewhat eccentric one. I only believe in the Bible as a historical document, in which the authors recorded the life of a divine being - Christ, to the best of their ability. I believe that the letters of Paul take a divergent path from Christ's message, that much of the Israeli/Jewish history is true, though somewhat altered in their favor, and that the prophets were indeed prophets. However, I'm not too happy with modern institutions of religion.

I also tend to think of Buddhism, Daoism, Yoga, etc. more as philosophies than religions, because if you don't believe in the spirituality they claim, they still provide useful tools for living.

As for my political stance? Well, I believe that Martin Luther King, Jr. may have been one of the greatest men who ever lived, and that he's often overlooked as merely a civil rights activist, when in fact his works are so much more meaningful. Most people, however, never delve into the things he said, believed, and most importantly lived beyond the "I have a dream" speech. In fact, it was his criticism of Marx that made me realize what I had been struggling with in my pseudo-Marxist days. Neither communism nor capitalism can ever dictate the truth of human freedom to anyone.

Anyways, that's enough from me for now.


Posted by Grant Morgan (Member # 194) on :
I'm a thirty-one-year-old Field Applications Engineer, which means that, while I pretend to be an engineer, I'm really a Slimey Sales Weasel. I have a M.E. in electrical engineering from Brigham Young University.

By now, most of you have probably guessed I'm LDS.

I've been married for eight years, and have two children, 1 and 3.

For a long while I thought I was going to be a science fiction writer. I've sat on a panel with OSC, though I doubt he'd know me from Adam. I was in a writers' group with Dave Wolverton (aka Dave Farland) for a couple of years, and managed to get a couple of stories published, but gave up on the whole gig about two years ago.

If lurking at this sight has taught me one thing, it's that I don't know much about anything. I am constantly amazed at the well-thought out and well-supported arguments people can make for positions I had always believed to be untenable. Once or twice, I've felt my own convictions shifting to the left beneath me.

Like Jon, I'm undeclared as far as party affiliation, but have always voted straight Republican. I was sorely tempted to vote for a Democrat in the last election-no, it was not Gore.

Speaking of which, is he heaving a mighty sigh of relief right now, or what? What a bullet to dodge


Posted by Yank (Member # 480) on :
Well, I'm actually a fairly new member, having signed in -along with a legion of others- on 9/11/2001. So I ain't no form'r lurk'r (ah don nede no gramer r spelin) but I guess I'll give a little info anyhoo.

The lack of spelling and grammer on the 'net is actually one of my (stupid) pet peeves. Reading for me is what oxygen is to most people, and I inhale good books of all kinds. Ender's Game was easily my favorite. (I also recommend R.A. Salvatore's Dark Elf Trilogy. Yes, it's one the dreaded "D&D" books. Yes, most of them are solid crap. But Salvatore makes dazzling points on everything under the sun. It's literature in the highest sense of the word. Don't miss it.)

I'm 18 years old, and I live in Provo, attending Brigham Young University. I live in a dormitory. I am majoring in Computer Science and thinking about a minor in Political Science.

I would consider myself a Radical Republican, in the post-civil war sense. I do not have a drivers license; I think the driving age should be raised to 18, and I'm just now thinking about getting one. (The whole gun control debate makes me want to scream, "Look at how many people we kill with our *cars,* for crying out loud![rant])
I'm not sure which side I really sympathize with on gun control, but I think the gun-rights people have the Founders on their side: the Founders obviously meant us to rebel if the government got tyrannical, whether you like this position or not. [Another rant]

I practice Zen Buddhism along with another religion (guess which one? I'll give you a hint: I'm the direct descendant of a polygamist.) If you ask me, this isn't a paradox. Zen is really more a philosophy than a theology, and I'm a lot more Christian than Buddhist. I understand where atheists and agnostics are coming from, but I can only say this: that which you do not use the five senses to feel can be by far the most real.

Fundamentalists cause my left eye to twitch violently. I'm a non-materialist. I share Kyle's taste in women, although I think eight children might be too much for my poor sanity. I detest the way the rich hoard their wealth while millions starve, but I do not believe it should be taken away from them by force and redistributed, although I do believe in some welfare. Many of my opinions are in constant flux, as I believe they should be. I have not opinion on some things at all because I don't think I know enough about them. That's the Zen talking.

I am currently avoiding doing my Math 112 homework. I'm justifying it my telling myself that lurking about Ornery is good for my Poli Sci 110 class.

I greatly enjoy this forum because it lets me see things from different angles. I like the fact that people seem to use actual logic instead of brain-dead rhetoric.

My roommate is dragging me into the commons room to do said homework.


[This message has been edited by Yank (edited September 21, 2001).]

Posted by Visionary (Member # 535) on :

As a student myself, I wonder how you would be able to both major and minor in Computer Science. I sympathize either way as I am a student of Electrical Engineering and have been forced to suffer through many a CS course. I'll also note that I have visited Utah, and I will say that it is the most breathtaking state in the Union. The landscapes there are unlike anyplace else on Earth.

I myself am a 20 year old student at the University of Virginia. When my engineering endeavors aren't keeping me locked away in UNIX computer labs, I indulge myself in my other academic pursuits, those being history and politics. My two favorite shows are Inside Politics (which I hope CNN will resume again soon) and Senate Proceedings on CSPAN2.

I don't really support democrats or republicans, but I tend to vote liberally because I don't think conservatives are concerned enough about environmental issues. I would like to believe in God, but logic won't allow me that luxury.

Well, there I am. I think I've given everyone enough to chew on for now.



Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 99) on :
"It's literature in the highest sense of the word."

*cringe* What makes me very, very sad is that you apparently MEAN this.

Look, I love a good piece of genre fiction as much as the next guy, but Salvatore has a LONG way to go before he can ever be considered literary.

Posted by The Human Commodity (Member # 500) on :
Yeah. Salvatore is definately an improvement from the rest of the Forgotten Realms bound toilet paper, but Literature is a stretch.

Not that I'm biased against modern science fiction / fantasy completely - I do think a great many of Card's works are of literary merit, but Salvatore is definately a formula writer, more marketable than innovative.

Posted by Yank (Member # 480) on :
Self-Appointed Definers of "literature"-
I wasn't talking about all of Salvatore's work- just the Dark Elf Trilogy. Formulaic or not, it was a lot more accessible than encoded crap that so often passes for "modern literature" these days. I do realize that most of his work *is* quite a bit short of literature, and I've been very disappointed, truth be told, with just about everything outside the Dark Elf Trilogy and a few passages from it's sequels.

Salvatore's trilogy had some important things to say. That an individual is not merely a product of his/her enviroment or society. How prejudice cannot always be overcome, that there will always be those who will judge us by things that do not matter. How individuals can change.

Salvatore had to work with a brain-dead genre and a brain-dead universe. He breathed life and meaning into it in this trilogy. And that, in my opinion, is what makes it such an accomplishment. It's a lot harder to accomplish anything under such conditions.

The irony is that when Salvatore started writing in his own worlds, his work went absolutely down the toilet. He has written nothing of almost any value outside the Drizzt Do'Urden books, as far as I can see. (And the later books in that series have, alas, gone down the commode as well).

How can anything be of "literary merit" if it can only be understood by a professor with four years of training in the proffessional code? 'Cuz that's all my English teachers ever threw at me, and I hated it- it seemed usually to be just a bunch of PC propaganda (exceptions: Cry the Beloved Country, Huckleberry Finn, Gulliver's Travels).

People, rip my opinions into shreds if you must, but use logic instead of condescension, please. Condescension pisses me off, but it doesn't change my opinions. If you want to talk to people like they're ignorant little children, go become a Freudian psychiatrist. And if I want to talk to literary snobs, I'd expect to find them in a college English department, not on a forum that's supposed to be full of "ornery" Americans.

Posted by Yank (Member # 480) on :
Oops. Typo. I meant to say I'm minoring in *political* science.
And that was after three or four edits too..
There goes my future as an editor...
Posted by Pete (Member # 2495) on :
Very little stuff of literary merit is allowed to be taught these days in US schools. Consider yourself very lucky to have been allowed to read Huckleberry Finn -- a book near the top of the PC-hole book-burning hit list.

As for the merits of Salvatore -- I can't say -- I have not read him. I was trained to sneer at anything that is popular outside the ivory tower, but I've managed to break my programming.

Posted by Everard on :
Hrm. in my public school we read some truly amazing literature... and stuff that wasn't buried ten feet deep, all the time.

Besides which, most of the "PC" apologist that we read was better literature then shakespeare...

Posted by Kentuckian (Member # 101) on :
I have noticed an alarming trend which gives me pause: bad philosophy often makes beautiful art. "The Grapes of Wrath" may possibly be the greatest American novel (in the opinon of this Ornerian) but it's essentially a primer of socialist thought. How depressing.

"The Fountainhead" contains much more philosophy I agree with, (and some I do not) but is hopeless as a work of art, clumsily constucted and preachy.


Whatever the cause of this trend, it could explain the "PC"ness of high school lit classes. I wouldn't subject my students to Rand as long as Steinbeck was available.


Posted by Everard on :
Of course, the problem is you are confused by what is bad and what is good philosophy

(or, you're a bad judge of art if you want to look at it another way).

Just in case it didn't come through, I'm joking around in this post.

Posted by Redskullvw (Member # 188) on :
hi im Red's dog Jack and while I am busy trying to get on top of the refridgerator I thought i would see who else had introduced themselves. And while i too have heard that reading is fun, i prefer eatting books. Last week when Red pulled down a political book on Boris Yeltsin and left it on the coffee table I found it to be wonderful. The cover had a nice nutty undertone to it with hints of vanilla. but I was most impressed with the acid free archive paper which made up the meat of the book. About the only thing I didnt like about it was the blue fabric overbinding which was rather stringy and tasted so bad that I decided to upchuck it on Red's bedspread. Another book which I enjoyed was a first edition Speaker For The Dead. For some reason Red hasn't petted me much lately. Oh well off to find the cat food which should be somewhere on top of the refridgerator

Jack Frost the Trench Beagle.

Posted by wyrd (Member # 539) on :
I am 29 years old and married to a Dental Student here at WVU although we are originally from Utah. My first love is Genetics, then literature, then philosophy. I'm very religious and I love diversity. I believe that we all exist on a spectrum between two extremes which gives us the potential to be anything of everything and sometimes I get confused . I often speak up before I've thought something through and I have many faults (maybe I'll post my most embarrasing moment sometime , I haven't heard it beat yet) and, oh yeah, I'm clumsy.

I do not yet belong to any political party but I do have some strong opinions. I feel it is immoral to form a strong opinion when you don't have all the facts and that holds me back from voicing my feelings a lot.
But I'm excited to try out my voice in an internet community for the first time.

I love OSC, Isabella Allunde, Sir Walter Scott, and Michael Ondatje's writing is so beautiful it makes me cry. I'm not big on Oprah Winfrey :rolleyes don't know why) and was disappointed when she chose an Isabella A. book for her 'Book Club'.

And EEK! , just playing with the smilies.

Posted by The Human Commodity (Member # 500) on :
Granted - much of what is considered literature is what I like to refer to as the "Elite Enigma" - that is, those who consider themselves intellectual make something really hard to understand, then congratulate the few other intellectuals who can understand it. It's high society at its worst.

However, though Salvatore has much more merit than many authors of his time, to me he still falls below those such as John Steinbeck, Ralph Ellison, and Mark Twain or more recent authors such as Kurt Vonnegut or Tom Robbins.

Oh - and to Mark Twain's novels being "politically incorrect" - That is my biggest gripe with those in the PC community - they're completely ignorant when it comes to evaluating the overall meaning of a novel. Any idiot who looks through Huck Finn and only sees the N word misses the whole point - what Ralph Ellison calls the beautiful idea of harmony between two human beings that inspired Twain to "put Huck Finn on a raft with Jim." Huck Finn is anything but a racist model, and an uncomfortably accurate portrayal of life in America at a point in time. It will cost us too much as a society to omit it.

Posted by Yank (Member # 480) on :
Granted, Vonnegut is a genius, and easily surpass Salvatore. But too many people pass up Salvatore simply because of the horrible (and usually well-deserved) "Forgotten Realms" stigma.
Far right or far left, censors are idiots. Some of the more fundamentalist parents at my old high school (*twitch* goeth my eye) decided that some of their kids were in situations where they might... possibly.... be exposed to something slightly offensive! Perish the thought!
Posted by The Human Commodity (Member # 500) on :
*Nod* Damn those censors!

I remember when people at my church were talking about how reading a book that had one bad word in it was compromising our christian beliefs.

Some people seem to have missed the fact that there's not a list of bad words in the Bible, and neither is their an imperative moral structure in language. Instead - it's essentially a class issue. I mean, the word vulgar doesn't mean obsecne, it means common. The language of 'common' people, which is the embodiment of years of hatred towards the lower classes and their culture by the elite.

Posted by Autophagy (Member # 76) on :
So, this is only my 3rd post in almost a year. But who knows, maybe I'll get more verbal...

I'm 23 and female. I grew up in Kalamazoo MI, went to college in Pittsburgh PA, and now live in Oakland CA. I work in the writing and education industries. I write, paint, garden, and wish I had a dog. I believe in God, and I voted for Nader.

Autophagy basically means to devour oneself. I love the irony of that.

If you live in my neck of the Bay Area and you want to go bowling or something sometime, please get in touch! You can send mail to my yahoo account -- same username.

Posted by Snowden (Member # 407) on :
I am a 24 year old writer/musician who finished in Philosophy at the University of California, Berkeley. I was the Student Body President there and I have been pleasantly amused by all of the misconceptions on the other thread.

[This message has been edited by Snowden (edited September 22, 2001).]

Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 99) on :
"Salvatore's trilogy had some important things to say. That an individual is not merely a product of his/her enviroment or society. How prejudice cannot always be overcome, that there will always be those who will judge us by things that do not matter. How individuals can change."

And you're saying that, say, Heinlein (to stay within the general genre) didn't say it better?

Look, I'm sure there's lots of room in the world for fantasy hack fiction to break some high-minded ground -- quite a few books spring to mind, in fact, given that I'm a fan of medieval fantasy novels and prefer the more "elevated" entries to the schlock -- but to call the Dark Elf trilogy a work of "literature" is really a slap in the face to all the ACTUAL literature out there.

Now, Stephen King's Dark Tower series: THAT'S literature.


Posted by Locus (Member # 540) on :
It seems I am late to the party.

I found this site while trying to determine if OSC was ancient and likely to die before he produces anymore great books.

I'm a product of the glorious American education system and getting more uneducated by the day. I live in the middle of nowhere after spending parts of my life almost everywhere.

I've got a small zoo, a dog,a bunch of heirloom style chickens,and some rare and unusual calves. (one lives with me the other I get to see on weekends...long story)

My religious persuasion is not.

Kyle French's sister sounds like she might be the kind of woman I find apealing.

I generally join whichever political party doesn't have a member in the room at a given moment.

I take life too seriously. I treat life as if its a joke.

My favorite author would be R.A.H.,you can keep heaven, I want to go to Boondock when I die.

Posted by Saint Nick (Member # 541) on :

I first visited this site after reading Orson Scott Card's recent take that had been posted by someone that I respect immensely on a football forum. Once I started reading the opinions here, I realized this place was special.

About me...30 years old, two children, no degrees or extra initials in my name. Politically, I'm an uncomprimising Libertarian that tempers their world view with Judeo-Christian values. Liberty and freedom cannot exist for long without responsibility. I'm proud of the facts that I live in a historically Democratic congressional district where my GOP representative is a former Libertarian candidate for president and that I've never voted Democrat.

And I sometimes get incredibly frustrated that so many people are in love with totalitarianist style governments. The larger the direct role of a government in your life, the less free you are. I guess I just don't get it.

Anyhoo, I'm enjoying the dialogue here and look forward to more. Take care!

[This message has been edited by Saint Nick (edited September 23, 2001).]

Posted by Yank (Member # 480) on :
I think we're arguing from completely different premises on what "literature" is, and in my experience that tends to be a waste of time. Let's all just read what we wish, shall we? And spare each other the condescending rhetoric?

Posted by leave (Member # 466) on :
I actually read the dark elf trilogy awhile ago, and was really surprised to find something so good within the whatever the hell world it is. I'm not sure if it is literature in the classic sense, is definitely something I would recommend you read and decide for yourself. If i recall correctly, it is a rather fast read, so set aside a day and read it, I strongly recommend it!
Posted by FlagStone (Member # 262) on :
I am of some age and gender and was possibly born some time in some where.
Posted by msquared (Member # 113) on :

That has to be the shortest post you have ever made.

Nice to see you back.


Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 99) on :
"I think we're arguing from completely different premises on what 'literature' is, and in my experience that tends to be a waste of time."

Except....What IS your premise? I'm having trouble coming up with any definition of "literature" that would include the work of Salvatore.

Posted by Locus (Member # 540) on :
TomDavidson wrote:

"Except....What IS your premise? I'm having trouble coming up with any definition of "literature" that would include the work of Salvatore."

How about this one from my hopped up Webster's?

6. any kind of printed material, as circulars, leaflets, or handbills: literature describing company products.

Hmm ....or were you going for the more snooty pretentious literature that is assigned to torment students?

Literature is basically anything with a printed message. The quality of that message is irrelevant.

Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 99) on :
"Literature is basically anything with a printed message. The quality of that message is irrelevant."

Ouch. You DO realize that I'm a former English teacher and a professional writer, right?

That's like saying the girl who works the register at J.C. Penney is an economist, that Roy Rogers was a historian, and that Carrot Top is a comedian.

[This message has been edited by TomDavidson (edited September 24, 2001).]

Posted by SapperGirl (Member # 486) on :
My old handle was ender wiggin, I've been posting here for about a year. Lately I've been slacking off because I have actual work to do. Also, I don't own a computer so it's kind of difficult for me.

I just switched my area of study from physics/computers to anthropology, mainly because I realized that I hate math and am actually good a social science. Which means I'm still in first year at Universtiy of Toronto. But I have a good science background and often see things from that perspective.

I am in the Canadian Army reserves as a combat Engineer, and I tend to be sligtly obsessed with Army stuff.

Currently going through a moral crises wrt religion & morality and stuff. Am Catholic but right now I'm really ticked off at the church for it's position on women.

I belive in equality, not equity. I don't like political correctness, but I believe in publicly funded health care and education. (mainly becuase my parents have no money so if it wasn't publicly funded I would have no oppritunties)

I'm not a member of a political party because of the current sad state of Canadian politics.

I read entirely too much. My favorite book's Ender's Game,The War in 2020 by Ralhp Peters, and The Lions of Al-Rassan by Guy Gavrial Kay. My favorite magazine is the economist, from which I get most of my current events information.

Been lurking lately, don't really have the time to post that much.
But I'm still here.

Posted by invah (Member # 528) on :
Geez I hated Steinbeck...wait except for "Of Mice and Men" that book made me want to cry. As to literature, I find that a lot of literature is as Jubal Harshaw said: (Heinlein) some of it is just intellectual masterbation that sneers at the fact that any who aren't of the english effete even attempt to understand what is obviously out of their range. Any art that does not connect with its audience has failed.

As for introducing myself...well, there is a lot of conflicting ideology that I seem to agree or disagree with, especially if someone disgrees, but then that is probably me just being contrary. (Dare I say "ornery"?)

My father is a librarian so I grew up teething on "the classics", much to his dismay, though he read us "The Phantom Tolbooth" to get us to go to sleep. But then again he turned on Star Trek: TNG at dinner time to get us to shut the hell up. <grins>

I love music as name comes from Inva Mulla (opera singer) who sang a rendition of Luci di Lammermoor that gives me the chills.

I have no idea what anyone would really want to know, but if you have any questions you could always ask.


Posted by Yank (Member # 480) on :
I'm afraid that your status as a former English teacher and professional writer makes me a bit more skeptical about your positions on literature (much as I'm skeptical of politicians when they talk about politics, actors when they talk about Hollywood, scientists when they talk about science- not on technical issues, but on things like ethics and the the *value* of what the profession does. Insiders tend to have a rather skewed view of the inside. Scientists think science is all-important, artists think their particular branch of art is the pinnacle of the "human experience," actors tend to think they are extremely important people- you get the idea.)

My definition of literature is any work that changes the way I think about something, that opens a new window into the world. If quotes from the book spring to mind when I ponder a certain issue, it's literature. I've always believed "artistic value" to be rather beside the point. It's subjective. I quite simply care not at all what the "authorities" say is and is not art. *I* decide what for me is art and what is literature.

I tend to scoff the world of modern "literature" because they are completely out of touch with the outside world. No outsider cares about them unless forced to (e.g. high school lit classes). Members of academia and the art world often hear constant praise and accolades from their colleagues which eventually gives them the illusion that they're actually famous and important, when in fact no one outside the clique has ever heard of them, or cares about their accomplishments if they have.

I don't follow sports. If the quarterback of some leading football team were to end up next to me in an airplane, I would be no more interested in his accomplishments than in the underwater basket-weaver world champion's. They would mean nothing to me. I would simply be politely attentive.

If, on the other hand, I were to end up next to Orson Scott Card on an airplane, I would be extremely interested. I would think it wonderfully exciting. But if someone who didn't care for reading were to end up next to him, he would be as interested as I was in the quarterback. He wouldn't care about Hugo or Nebula awards. We all think our community the most important one, the best.

Heinlen and Vonnegut, admirable though they may be to us, mean nothing to most people.

[This message has been edited by Yank (edited September 24, 2001).]

Posted by Locus (Member # 540) on :

FYI I haven't even read Salvatore's work. I felt the need to defend (the guy?) on the grounds that he IS writing and I don't think he elected himself as a literary genius? I would do the same for you were you in his place.

I've TRIED writing and between you, me, and the board I can generate good ideas but its alot like a turtle trying to fly. The plus side is I've some appreciation for the effort to produce a book full of drivel much less one of merit.

As for "fine" literature(to distinguish), I read David Copperfield when I was in 4th grade (voluntarily) and I don't think I will ever get over the damage. (I picked it up thinking it was about the magician, then I had to read the whole thing, I oughta sue) Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn did much more for me without the trauma.

I feel it more important that people read than what they read. Romance novels aren't exactly my idea of a good time but for some they might broaden their horizons, who am I to judge?

BTW ...what do you write?

Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 99) on :
"much as I'm skeptical of politicians when they talk about politics, actors when they talk about Hollywood, scientists when they talk about science- not on technical issues, but on things like ethics and the the *value* of what the profession does. Insiders tend to have a rather skewed view of the inside."

What's interesting here is that -- with the exception of politicians and writers -- you reserve your skepticism for when people working in a given field try to extend their understanding of that field into ANOTHER area of endeavor. My question, then, is why you do NOT grant the same courtesy to politicians and writers; in the same way that you are willing to accept a scientist's opinion when it comes to scientific fact, or an actor's opinion when it comes to making movies, why wouldn't you be willing to accept a politician's opinion on politics or a writer's opinion on literature?

I have a number of problems with the way literature is taught today -- and was taught in the past. I also disagree with a great deal of what is still considered "canon" literature in high schools and college classrooms, and hasten to point out that Dickens, in his day, was as much of a schlockmeister as Salvatore is in ours; he wrote escapist serial fantasies about social mobility and Victorian mores to pander to crowds, and only in a very few novels was his occasionally brilliant writing style -- like Dumas', artifically padded because they were both paid by the word -- able to salvage some of his really ridiculous plots. Jane Austen was the same way; if her works have weathered better than most of Dickens', perhaps it's only because the foibles of people in love age better than social criticism.

Real literature is one of those things that, IMO, good readers know when they encounter it. Unfortunately, not everyone agrees on what should be included -- and often, things get included because they're old enough or politically correct enough or demonstrate some technique that teachers are hoping to pass on to their students (Heart of Darkness and The Scarlet Letter both spring to mind here as novels that were NOT the best works of either author but are considered very good teaching novels because of their rather heavy-handed symbolism.)

The fact that people should feel free to disagree about which books are "literary" enough to include in Western canon does NOT mean that all books that make points, or all books that are relatively thought-provoking, are somehow "literature." This is the mistake the Pulitzer Prize committee makes, year after year, when they hand out their fiction Prizes to pieces of complete and total drivel.

So far, no Forgotten Realms book has yet been "literature," although a scant handful have been pleasant reads. I would argue that Stephen King's Dark Tower series is literary, and that IT would already be taught in schools as literature if not for all the vulgarity. I think Speaker for the Dead is literature, as are parts of the Worthing Saga, but think Ender's Game is not -- although, since the latter is far more acceptable, we're seeing it taught in schools already.

Good literature plays with words and meaning and symbol. It's thought-provoking, yes, but the NEWSPAPER is thought-provoking -- so it's the duty of literature to do more than simply raise a few interesting topics over the course of the experience; it has to dress them up and take them out on the town, make them dance in front of some interesting scenery. It's the difference between a Rob Reiner movie and a Kubrick movie; Reiner films are often enjoyable, but rarely do they strike you as ART, as something that works on multiple levels and was created with a genuine love of the act of construction (with, perhaps, the exception of The Princess Bride, but that's because Goldman's a pretty literary screenwriter).

For what it's worth, I don't consider To Kill a Mockingbird to be literature any more than I consider the Dark Elf Trilogy to be literature; both cover the same themes and splash a little symbolism around, but they're breezy reads without any real attention paid to the work in progress. On the other hand, Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange Land makes roughly the same points in a way that I WOULD consider literature -- even though I don't enjoy the book all that much.

Literature IS subjective, but not completely. There's more to art than knowing what you like.


Posted by Yank (Member # 480) on :
Well, Tom, like I said, my definition of literature does not match yours. Much as I like debating, you can't debate from opposite sides of a definition.

Oh, and apparently my sentence structure is bad. I'll take *into consideration* the opinion of *any* professional on the technical side of their profession. (I still think they're sometimes if not often wrong even on these things. Plenty of science is opinion, much as they like to pretend otherwise. Scientists latch onto a pet theory and defend it whatever the facts. Yeah, it's bad science, but there are plenty of bad critics- and no shortage of bad politicians.) But what is and isn't literature isn't accepted fact, it's opinion. I'll listen to a politician when he talks about the legislative process, but I'll be skeptical when he talks about the *value* of his or another politicians voting record. The same goes for writers.

[This message has been edited by Yank (edited September 24, 2001).]

Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 99) on :
Yank, you DO realize that the rest of the world can't use the definition "books that make Yank think" as their working definition of the word "literature," right?

They can't even use the definition "books that make any given individual think," since quite a few poorly-written and completely pedantic books might in fact stir new thoughts in some poor soul who first encountered those themes there.

There pretty much HAS to be another aspect to literature, above and beyond the "make me think" aspect....

[This message has been edited by TomDavidson (edited September 25, 2001).]

Posted by Mike_W (Member # 202) on :
Or, maybe "literature" is just an artificial, bourgois concept that does not correspond to reality. Honestly, I don't know. This is the classic debate over "what is art". My current working definition is "the intentional creation of beauty". I think extending art and literature definitions too far into their impact is a dead end because of the subjectivity of the impact (of course, my definition fails because of the difficulty of defining beauty). But, what do I know?


Posted by Locus (Member # 540) on :

You either need to get a better dictionary or go spend some time studying yours. You seem to be insisting we only use the word to describe "fine" literature, "classic" literature, or some such other vague concept.
"Literature" is basically any written work much the same as a comic strip or a finger painting is a work of art. When a child makes an ashtray its still art even if it does fall a bit short of David. If we set the standard on "art" based on David, Picasso and Van Gogh sucked and aren't worth remembering. Fortunately even the art world has a bit more flex in it than that. Things that were not seen as art in the past are now being appreciated.

What strikes me about the art world(including lit) is the artificiality that has pervaded everything. It is less important to be thing of beauty than to have depth. Is this some kind of rebellion in which the art crowd tries to prove they DO have minds?

"Hey look ..I crucified myself on top of a volkswagen with a nailgun look how brilliant I am".


Does the suffering generate the depth or does the depth generate the suffering?

Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 99) on :
"'Literature' is basically any written work much the same as a comic strip or a finger painting is a work of art."

One technical definition of "literature," sure, is "anything written." A pamphlet, brochure, or newspaper can be considered "literature" by this definition, as you've pointed out.

However, this is clearly NOT the definition that we're using in this discussion, as Yank established. Let's examine his post to see which definition of "literature" we're using:

"Yes, it's one the dreaded 'D&D' books. Yes, most of them are solid crap. But Salvatore makes dazzling points on everything under the sun. It's literature in the highest sense of the word."

We're using "literature" in the "highest sense of the word," a form of the word that apparently does NOT include most other D&D books and/or other books that do not make dazzling points. Surely, then, Yank intends literature here to mean, at the very least, "a great book worth reading" -- which is far, far closer to the definition usually used by literary critics than to the sixth dictionary definition of "printed material."


Like you, I'm also bothered by the artificiality of modern art, classical music, and "official" literature. I think many writers, artists, and musicians go to unnatural lengths to seem odd or experimental or completely inaccessible to make it obvious that their work is NOT intended for the mere huddled masses, that what THEY'RE doing is one of those multi-layered, thoughtful pieces. In so doing, sometimes they lose sight of the fact that the work itself also has to be good, that there has to be some skill in the craft as well as intention in the craft in order for artistry to shine through. (In the world of film, Oliver Stone and Stanley Kubrick have been guilty of making this same mistake a few times each.)

Art, to me, is something that is simultaneously thought-provoking, skillfully created or performed, and finally performed with a thoughtful consciousness regarding its own creation. Random or thoughtless design is not art -- or literature. Easy, accessible pieces CAN be art, but I expect an artist of any kind to be able to tell me why he used a certain shade of red or a certain synonym or a certain iamb.

Work that contains all three elements can, I believe, make an argument for literary regard. GREAT literature, in turn, contains all three elements while still being compelling enough to be enjoyable. (James Joyce, for example, is a borderline author to me; he's clearly talented and occasionally enjoyable, but he's also absolutely impenetrable to a casual reader -- unlike, say, T.S. Eliot, whose work is at least a good read even if you miss his points.)


Posted by Locus (Member # 540) on :
We're using "literature" in the "highest sense of the word,"

*nod* Point taken, I'd missed this or perhaps got distracted from it when you asked Yank to again define his meaning with :

"Except....What IS your premise? I'm having trouble coming up with any definition of "literature" that would include the work of Salvatore."


"Art, to me, is something that is simultaneously thought-provoking, skillfully created or performed, and finally performed with a thoughtful consciousness regarding its own creation. Random or thoughtless design is not art -- or literature. Easy, accessible pieces CAN be art, but I expect an artist of any kind to be able to tell me why he used a certain shade of red or a certain synonym or a certain iamb."

Here we disagree. Sometimes an artist (including writers) can give motives for their technique. More frequently, I believe they get caught up in the process which feeds itself and its done intuitively, what feels "right". If consciousness of the work is your chief concern then you'll have to credit the editors as the true artists.

To illustrate my example I submit Michelangelo describing how he determined which block of marble would turn into a particular statue "the figure is already there all I do is removed the excess concealing it" (forgive me if I misquoted as I do it from memory).

As for the need to be thought provoking. Well ..there goes many great pieces who are simply beautiful. Bye bye music without lyrics. You may choose to think about the art but I do not believe it needs to provoke thought to be art. Usually more "pure" art for me invokes feelings. I wonder if this need for art to carry a message or directly invoke thought is a result of the influence of the protestant work ethic, that everything's worth can be judged by its usefulness.

A quirk of my personality is I buy tools for fun. The goal is not the posession of the tools but for what those tools allow me to do. Each tool gives me new power to shape the world around me. This reshaping gives me an immense charge but it is also exhausting. Not on a physical level on a ...psyche level. Then I seek refuge in simple art, not something to invoke me to think, but to slow me down, recharge me, nourish something inside and give me that sense of peace. Sitting quietly at night in the car with the radio playing jazz is an one example of what I might do.

I have some random thoughtless design examples as well but they may touch off a religious debate and really make the subject murky.

Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 99) on :
"Then I seek refuge in simple art, not something to invoke me to think, but to slow me down, recharge me, nourish something inside and give me that sense of peace."

And, of course, this is another aspect of art that I completely forgot to mention, much to my embarassment: it should be evocative. (I touched briefly on this when talking about accessibility, especially with the Kubrick/T.S. Eliot examples, but should have spent more time on it.)

Note, however, that we're not just talking about art in general; we're specifically talking about literature. Most of the greatest pieces of music are more evocative than thought-provoking, precisely because this is EXACTLY what music is intended to do. Poems also work on this level, to some extent, as do many great paintings. Few people, however, pick up a work of respected literature to relax and turn off their brains for a while -- so while an emotional connection is indeed important to literature, I would argue that it's not as essential a component of the form as it is for music or dance.

[This message has been edited by TomDavidson (edited September 25, 2001).]

Posted by Yank (Member # 480) on :
Hee hee hee I seem to have started an entire thread inadverdently merely through the use of some (admittedly over-the-top) hyperbole: "It's literature in the highest sense of the word."

Forgive me for exaggerating.

And my thanks to Tom for being my sparring partner in this debate. Always good to sharpen one's mind and ideas, no?

I concede the point and am off to take a nap.

[This message has been edited by Yank (edited September 25, 2001).]

Posted by Viking (Member # 520) on :
Not to drag this thread back to it's original meaning or anything

My name is Toby Stevenson, and I hail from Toronto Ontario, or at the very least currently live there.

I work as a poor slave for an evil multinational corporation (computer programmer for a large Canadian Bank).

I'm married with no children, and my wife is currently attending law school in Kingston, about a 3 hour drive from the city where I live.

I started studying Biochemistry at McMaster University in 1994 and somehow wound up graduating with a history degree in 1997. I also have a college diploma in Computer Programming and I am considering returning to school for a physics degree once my wife has completed law school and we have reduced our monumental student debts.

In terms of religion I am somewhere between agnostic and utterly apathetic. I think that a belief in your ability to state unequivocaly the true nature of the Universe, it's Creator, and the nature of any possible afterlife is incredibly arrogant. Furthermore, I think that beliefs in these matters are quite irrelevant as what matters is what you do while you are here and the relationships and impacts you have on other people.

Politically I am left leaning for a Canadian, which probably makes me a commie bastard for all you Yanks

I am a big believer in fiscal responsibility for a Government and think that Debt reduction must be the primary goal of the leaders of canada. I don't especially mind paying taxes, but I get very angry when I feel that they are being wasted.

In social terms I believe the government should butt out. I believe in legalised gay marriages, legalisation of marijuana etc.

I've only been lurking here for a few weeks but have read many interesting conversations here, and I expect my involvement will slowly pick up over the next little month or two.


As to definitions of literature and what works should be included under the definition I really don't think it is possible to reach a concensus on the subject.

What charateristics should be considered before a work is described as literary?

The ability to challenge an individuals thoughts?

Whether or not the work establishes an emotional connection?


Complex style and structure?

Competent use of advanced writing techniques?

No matter what characteristics you decide are necessary for a written work to achieve the title of "literature", the decision will still be either wholly subjective, or a reliance on the logic of others.

You could take the word of an "expert" such as an english professor or writer on what works should qualify as literature.

But what about professional rivalry. What about jealousy. If a book is written with an intended audience vastly different from the expert making the judgement and then fails to connect at an emotional or idealogical level, does it automatically fail to meet the standard of literature?

Can a work which has a specific target audience ever be considered literature, or, are only works written for the widest possible appeal eligible.

If you dismiss the idea that a decision on the literary value of a written work can be decided solely on expert opinion, you might therefore decide that the question of literature is a solely personal decision.

Under this idea, each individual sets their own criteria for what literature is. This criteria will be drawn from the personality, cultural background, and educational training of each person. In some rare cases a person may actually try to logically determine what their criteria for literature is.

For those that think I am being a little harsh by saying a logical determination of personal literary criteria would be a rare event, look at your own posts in this thread. Bright, educated people who for the most part have yet to be able to articulate their own personal definitions of literature.

The other problem with self defined literary criteria, is of course that no two people would ever agree on what "literature" is.

One person might claim that "Mighty Mouse" comics saw them through a dark time in their life, and thereof are the highest form of written literature.

Another person might claim that only the works of Shakespeare qualify of literature and everything else is simply fiction.

The more I think about this subject, the less meaning I can find to ascribe to the word "literature".

Perhaps the best definition for literature is the most technical one.

Just as any medical text or paper becomes part of the medical literature, or a treatise on string theory becomes part of the physics literature, perhaps it is just best to say that any written work of fiction becomes part of the english literature.

Not a statement on the quality or worthiness of a book. Simply a way of saying that it is a work of fiction.

It is still possible, without using the word literature, to discuss books, their meaning, and their importance to our world, culture, and philosophies.


PS, I can't stand Salvatore

Posted by Yank (Member # 480) on :
No, not a commie, just a socialist.

You want commies, talk to Everard. I'm a capitalist myself, but Everard puts forth a pretty darn good defense of communism.

Posted by Viking (Member # 520) on :
Hmmm, I wouldn't describe myself as a socialist.

I believe in a free economy and free trade. I think that government restrictions on industry should only be in place to protect people, (regulations on food industries for example) the environment (emissions regulations), or to promote economic growth and competition.

Now, there are of course exceptions to that as I think that the government should provide healthcare, dental care, and education for no fee to anyone under the age of 18.


Posted by ozymandias (Member # 77) on :
I am a law student, a father, a husband, 25 years old, rabidly conservative and zanily Mormon, and I think almost all of you are nuts. At least, I thought all of you were nuts until I started reading these posts and now I see you as warm, loving human beings who form an integral part of the rich tapestry of life, blah, blah, blah, specifically the loony part. So why do I keep coming back to this forum? I must be nuts.
But not as nuts as Salvatore fans.

Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 99) on :
I've never actually met a zany Mormon.
Posted by Yank (Member # 480) on :
As I said in my original post (it's *way* the heck back there) I'm not really a Salvatore fan. Most of his work is mediocre at best. It's the Dark Elf Trilogy I like. People are welcome to hold opinions to the contrary.

Methinks we should move this discussion to the new literature topic that ozymandias has started.

Posted by ozymandias (Member # 77) on :
I reserve all my zaniness for when there are no witnesses, as any sensible person would do.
Posted by Brian (Member # 588) on :
Hello all. I have been lurking since mid-Sept. and finally decided to register.
I am 27, married for almost five years. I love to read, I am interested in the martial arts and I have an insatiable hunger for knowledge. I used to consider myself very liberal, but after listening to you all for several months, I realized that I am apparently a moderate with liberal leanings. I am dissatisfied with formal church structures, although I do believe that there is a greater force out there which we cannot discern. I am a christian in the sense that Everard is a communist.

Posted by Everard on :
Welcome, Brian!
(Had to get that welcome in first, since my name appears in your post )
Posted by Redskullvw (Member # 188) on :
man he is such a communist its scary....

i assume brian is soon to be named Pope.

Posted by Denelian (Member # 531) on :
w0w, here i am a johnny-come-lately...
um, as much as i was amused by the "literature" discussion, i ill return to the original point of the thread.

I am a native Californian (i.e., i'm from CA and spend most of my time as far away as possible!) female and not quite at the much coveted insurance age of 25.
i list my career as "starving poet" when i can, but most often work is Human Resources, at least before i got laid off and had to work at Papa Johns to pay for my way too expensive Mustang (which i would marry were it legal)
I guess you guys can call me "pagan" by the general definition of the forum, although i also believe in Christ (as me somewhere else!) i am also a feminist who doesn't believe its rape if you got yourself drunk, that there ARE things that men do better (like move my furniture...<G> ) and that the sign of a mature man is the ability to let "his woman" do her thing without jelousy.
i guess i'm also a "rational anarcist" who can't spell, i believe in the Pauper's Oath, madatory birth control, and legalizing drugs to a certain extent, so long as >I< don't have to do them!
was there anything else? oh, yeah, and i love to play devil's advocate, and maybe at some point i will finish that psych degree

Posted by Yank (Member # 480) on :
Mandatory birth control? Not a big believer in reproductive freedom?
Posted by Denelian (Member # 531) on :
freedom to reproduce, yes, when you can afford it. i get tired of seeing 12 year olds pregnant. esp. when/if its rape, and their parents won't let thm abort, and so they go nine months hating this life inside them, and it ruins thier life.
i don't think that there should be a LIMIT on how many kids you can have, just WHEN you can have them. and that it SHOULD be a situation where you have to go and get something so that you can counter the BC, so that it is an actual DECISION, not an accident.

Posted by dutchuncle (Member # 574) on :
I registered a little while ago. I came across it while looking for some factual background on OSC.

I read the first two Ender books at a teenage-age (is that a word ?).Re-reading it recently (completly) and finding more to it than I ever thought possible, I wanted to know more about the writer.

Instead I got stuck in this forum.

The work of OSC made me realise how true a story can be, when seen within the boundries of that story. No matter how far-fetched, if it makes sense within its' framework, it is absolutly and wholly true and enjoyable.

Provided it is written properly.

I'm 26 years old, male, as a kid a liked to become a Dutch-reformed minister, than became an atheist, had a touch of spiritual insanity later on, now I think of myself as an agnostic who still searches for something more solid to believe in.

I am proudly and critically Dutch, I am a lost-soul-socialist and liberal, a republican (as in anti-monarchist, NO US-political affiliation intended). I work as an insurance intermediate, live in The Hague and, oh yes, I'm gay.

That probably makes me a minority of one.

The homosexuallity is what made me look into OSC. He's a supposed homofobic and I just couldn't believe it. Not from a man who writes as he does and with the implied messages I read into his works.

I no longer care about any supposed homofobia. He aces as a writer. Besides, I believe sexuallity is absolutly irrelevant.

But than again, I live in the only country in the world where it actually is. The land of the truely free, but also home of the not so brave.

I've been living with my Canadian partner for two years, we don't intent to marry just yet (if ever, except to get him my nationality), but it is nice to know we can. Family is very important to me, but we're to selfish to raise children. Instead, friends and relatives 'lend' us their children now and than. We get all the joys without the troubles.

I love the nit-picking debates this forum displays, and I admire the open honesty and tolerance of it.

I'd love to hear some true blooded red-neck comments to my on-line comming out. I may well be dissapointed though.

[This message has been edited by dutchuncle (edited December 14, 2001).]

Posted by Kentuckian (Member # 101) on :

This is really interesting... Some of the most interesting political and philosophical discussion I have ever had were with a friend of mine who would be 24 right now, was a proud Dutch liberal (liberal even by dutch definition)... and gay! I think he even works in something like insurance, perhaps banking.

Anway, what a small world. You may not be as small a minority as you think.


Posted by Gideon (Member # 601) on :
To bring it back again...

Long time reader of Mr. Card. Posted, signed up a few days ago for the first time.

30, a semester away from undergrad degree (graduating with honors, baby, after a horrible high school career 8yrs prior to college) and headed to grad school after a year break. Teaching is the way...

Don't like titles too much, pretty much pro-choice across the board, need lot of education to make choices, etc, etc.

Musician, artist, martial art teacher, theatre stage combat teacher/student, etc.

Like moon-lit walks on the beach (damn! Dont' have any beaches here! ).

See everyone on the forums!

Posted by GaryKraut (Member # 613) on :
Hi all,
Found the site a week-ish ago after reading about hatrack in the afterword in Shadow of the Hegemon.
I'm 27, and very happily married.
Politically I tend to be somewhat left-leaning, but really don't think I'm well enough informed on most issues to form good opinions. Looking to work on that.
I studied Physics in school, and work as a Software Tester now, after avioding computers like the plague when I was in college.
Posted by Unforgiven (Member # 619) on :

I found this site after completing the all the books in the Ender's Game Saga. I'm here to learn, listen, and talk to people who aren't concerned with living from girlfriend to girlfriend. I tend to be a moderate in political activities, however; I think for myself and I'm open to change if the results are better. As far as religion goes,
"God is apparantly all in you head."


Posted by Praetorian (Member # 617) on :
T? as in T'm..D.. from another site perhaps?
Posted by Unforgiven (Member # 619) on :
no just the first intial in my last name. I use that on the internet until I am sure I can trust people on the site.
Posted by msquared (Member # 113) on :
Actually Unforgiven, we don't care what your first name is. I know the first names of only a handfull of people here and have been here since almost the beginning. I know Ev's first name, but not kenuckians(or at least I do not remember it, I am sure I knew it at one time) or RedskullVW's. Now I figure I know Tom's, but that is just guessing.

One of the funniest things about handles here is the assumptions we make. I remember people being surprised when they found out I was a guy because they thought my handle was short for Miss quared. It actually comes from my initials as well, MM.

Welcome to the site


Posted by Unforgiven (Member # 619) on :
Good Deal, Good Deal.
Posted by Unforgiven (Member # 619) on :
Good Deal
Posted by GWVet (Member # 274) on :
How bout a reintroduction?

Been a while since I've posted here so I'm figuring the only folks that know me are the "old-timers".

I'm 33 and as my handle implies a veteran of Desert Shield/Storm. A lot of my politics lean towards liberal, but I don't like being labelled. I'm anti-abortion, but pro-choice. I'm pro-gun control and pro-2nd Amendment. I think George W. Bush is an idiot, but a good President. I could care less what Bill Clinton did with his cigars. As a President, I put him somewhere between Carter and Taft. I also think the designated hitter rule was the worst thing ever to happen to baseball. Go figure.

When I was a youngster in the Navy I was a Russian linguist and served on submarines, now I'm a PC support technician. I'm married and kidless and live in NJ. I went to college, but never finished. My wife is a social worker. She was the one that got me into OSC.

Anything else you want to know, just ask. Glad to know you.

Posted by LetterRip (Member # 310) on :
We've had a number of new members lately, so this is the place to tell us all a bit about yourself.



Posted by Baldar (Member # 669) on :
It was suggested that I place some information about myself upon this thread and while I do not take great comfort in doing so, I will endeavor to meet the minimum expectations.

I am 40, born in Germany, moved to VA, I have a few degrees (which speaks for my knowledge but not my wisdom).

I like to travel and have traveled extensively, I enjoy history archeology, paleontology, hiking, campling, exploring (actually have gone exploring), and historical investigation (tied to the exploring). I enjoy science fiction if its good, if its bad, its like fast food. Filling for the moment but not very satisfying.

I also have had an eventful business career and now enjoy teaching in place of working (because teaching is very easy to me and I enjoy it so much I do not consider it work).

Thats about it.

Posted by Nathan (Member # 683) on :
I'm a young, impressionable, idealistic, simplistic, but above all open-minded 17 eyar old (18 on Wed.). I don't know a lot of history (basically just what I've picked up and what I've learned in AP American History). I try not to be naive.

I'm not sure what my political alignments are, maybe a little right of center.

I like this board for two reasons: 1) the above statement. Still trying to figure things out and 2) I can always count on getting both sides of the story. I hate the media because I love to know what's going on (I have recently taken a special interest in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict) and they never tell me.

I'm a devout Christian (Southern Baptist), but I'm a devout Christian because I decided I want to be one, not because that's how I grew up (although I did--and I guess I still am ). So in the words of Kyle French, "at least I can think. I know a lot of religious wackos who can't think and only believe a thing because that was what they told them."

I'm a senior in highschool graduating as Valedictorian and heading to Vanderbilt in the fall to study Computer Engineering on a good chunk of scholarship and I plan to go to law school. But I don't pretend to know much, I can just make good grades. I'm working on that, though.

I enjoy reading more that writing; I'm a huge fan of anything Star Wars, Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, or OSC; I love just about any kind of music and play about a dozen instruments, I've even danced in a pickup boy band; and, to quote D.C. Talk, I'm a "Jesus Freak."

I'll just warn you, I have more questions than opinions.


Posted by Elimis (Member # 584) on :
As always, to get a good understanding of me, just read Nathan's post Typical teenagers, thats what we are!

I cam to this board from hatrack, since I just started liking OSC.

I mainly came here for the Palestinians-Israeli conflict, but ended up enjoying almost all the discussions. Great way to learn, IMO.

I got involved in the Israeli Palestinian conflict (and in politcs in general) about a year ago. Which may surprise you, since I live in Israel! I acutally just ignored all the news until a year ago, when I started chatting away on forums (bad ones, not ornery).

I'm 16, make that 17 in two weeks (btw happy b-day Nathan).

I actually have no idea on most of my political views, since I just started learning politics, and switch my view every week or so (actually, I change my mind about everything every week!).

Currently, I just read "Anthem" by Ayn Rand, and am looking into objectovism (sp?). I find I agree with a lot of it, and am hoping it will finally be one consistent framework I can use to find answers to hard questions of life... (But I doubt it )

Anything else? Let's see, I play the piano, love classical music (once again, just beggining to listen to it), love reading, am studying a Martial Art (Ju Jitsu) and have been doing so for a little under a year (WOW).

I am dreading the day I have to join the Israeli army, because I would much prefer to just stay in school and keep learning (or better yet, go to university and keep learning).

I guess that sums everything up pretty well...

Posted by Denelian (Member # 531) on :
first off, happy birthday, Nathan!

second off, to both you and Elimis... we all still question. Robert Heinlein said it best (although i am paraphrasing) to stop learing is to stop growing and die. (that is supposed to be learning. this is my edit - and yet, learing has such a special quality there <EG> )

next...Elimis, i wish i knew what to say to you to make your life easier. But i can't even fix my own (smaller) problems - but if it makes you feel any better, i would almost have killed to enter the Navy, but i have nerve damage in my knees. maybe we can pretend that you are serving for me? different country and all, but...

third, who all here IS musical??? i play eight instruments myself, sing, and was a dancer (ballet and tap) when i was still able.
who else, raise your hands

(edited because as usual i can't spell)

[This message has been edited by Denelian (edited May 12, 2002).]

Posted by Junpei (Member # 690) on :
I'm not sure if I'll stay or not, but so far this board seems pretty interesting.

Compared to most of you posters, I'm just a kid, but don't let that fool you. I have a deep passion for politics (I grew up reading the Perspective section) and debating with friends. I'm more of a Democrat than Republican, but I don't believe in totally siding with one political group (for example, I'm more pro-life than pro-choice).

I'm also a Protestant who really wants to become more devout. I grew up in a religious family, but only made a decision a few years back.

I enjoy reading, writing, as my name implies, I'm really interested in the Japanese language and culture.

Douzo youroshiku onegaishimasu.

Posted by Denelian (Member # 531) on :
Ya know im only 25, right???

most of us, so far as i can tell, are between 25 and 35.

except for Ken, of course

Posted by Shadrac (Member # 651) on :
Hi, I'm Shadrac.

(The name comes from a character in a role-playing game, which makes it easy for old friends to remember.)

I'm a just-turned-forty male, Canadian from Toronto. Married for fifteen years, 10 year old daughter.

I make my principal living as a General Manager, hospitallity- I run restaurants, bars, clubs etc. for those who own them but don't actually have a real clue as to how to make them go. The rest of my living is made through one of my passions, the game of poker, which I have been playing since the age of five. Both my wife and I are successful, semi-professional gamblers.

Aside from poker, I play just about any type of game going: role-playing, military simulation, political/strategic, backgammon, chess, go, paintball, computer versions of any of the above... Used to fence, (now I have gout, of all things.)

I read. Almost anything, history, military, political, but a lot of sf/fantasy which is how I got to here. I consider Mr. Card to be one of the most gifted English language writers still living. I write. Mostly sf/fantasy, mostly in spurts when uncommon discipline is exerted.

I help to run a Toronto literary sf/fantasy Con: Ad-Astra, though my involvement has lessened- now I mostly just conduct a single-malt whisky tasting, international beer tasting, and of course, the unofficial/official Ad-Astra poker game.

Politically, by bar stool liberals up here, I'm regarded as being slightly to the right of Ghengis Khan- many on this board might consider me a pacifist/socialist.

I believe in an individual's priveledge to freedom of choice, so long as those choices don't signifigantly harm others, or infringe upon their freedom of choice.

I don't believe in rights: only priveledges, which must be maintained, exercised and sometimes fought for.

I do not believe in any form of censorship for adults- period.

Anything written as fiction is literature- whether it's good literature or not is another matter...

I'm an agnostic. We are biological machines without, neccessarily, any purpose. When we die, we are merely meat, (probably.) What's important, is how we affect the lives of others, during and after our time. Fair is fair.

More than I intended, more than enough. If it's not enough for you, e-mail and you shall receive.

If you are passing through Toronto, e-mail me: I'll buy you a drink...or teach you poker...



Posted by Animist (Member # 674) on :
I suppose I'm rather young for this forum....

I'm 19 years old, an anthropology/writing major at the University of Pittsburgh.

Politically I'm unaffiliated; I don't believe that real change can be affected through politics. I don't vote except in local elections (in which case I'll probably vote for a Green or a Democrat). Most people just think of me as an anarchist, which is true to the extent that the social/political vision I hold is for a world existing a narchos - without any overarching authority.

Religiously I'm an animist, which is to say I view the world and the community of life therein as a sacred entity of which humankind is an equally sacred part (it could also mean that I believe that the entire world is alive or that there are spirits who dwell in everything; both of these are true as well).

I don't believe in capitalism, profit, progress, salvation, heaven, the superiority of man over the rest of creation, or the superiority of our civilization over every other culture to appear on this planet.

I stumbled onto this forum a few weeks back and, desperate for intelligent discussion and debate, promptly registered. I look forward to arguing with you all.

Posted by Pete at Home (Member # 429) on :
I am Pete.

For some reason introductions terrify me. More than anything I hate to be misrepresented, and perhaps I am afraid that I will say something that will be misunderstood, and permanently mis-label myself.

I was born three months late, and I have never caught up.

I was born while my parents were going to Brigham Young University; I am the first of seven children. My wife is also the first child of students who were the same university, and (in spite of being delivered by the same obstetrician who is now suing my dad) we met for the first time eight years ago in line at the BYU library. We are now living a few minutes drive from that university, with three very energetic boys in a tiny 2-bedroom townhome. My wife and I are both first children of first children of first children, and our first child has inherited all of our collective head-strength.

I am Human by race, Christian by religion, LDS by denomination, American by nationality, liberal in my politics, and traditionalist by culture. I tend to vote Republican in national elections and Democrat in local Utah elections. As a mormon I know more of my genealogy than most Americans do, and know just what strange blend of peoples beats through my heart. I am Danish, Anglo-Saxon, Celt, Norman, African Slave, Cherokee, German, Missouri Redneck and Mormon Pioneer. My ancestors owned each other before the American Civil War, and killed each other at the battle of Hastings. My Missouri Redneck ancestors probably persecuted my Mormon pioneer ancestors. One of these days I'll have to get a lawyer and sue myself.

My father worked for a large multinational corporation, so until I married, I never had the chance to put down roots. I lived in Detroit until I was 5 years old, then moved to Paris for six years, then Mexico City for seven years.

I attended a British/International school in Mexico City (Uniforms, O-levels, the whole deal) called "Greengates." I never remember seeing more than 4 or 5 kids from the same nationality in any class. Brits, Americans, Dutch, Israelis, Iranians, Koreans, Italians, Argentinean … we all spoke English and Spanish. Only the Israelis kept to themselves; everyone else mingled. Things were surprisingly non-tense between British and Argentinean students during the Falklands war. The students were cool to each other about nationality – only a few of the teachers would hate you because of your nationality or religion, and rub their bigotry in your face whenever they read something in the news that pissed them off.

One day my north-Irish history teacher, Mr. Smythe, bounded into the classroom and asked which students came from the greatest country in the world. All of us raised our hands. Then he asked: "Why do you believe that your country is the best in the world?" and pointed to me. I blurted something about the US protecting more of its citizens' civil rights. Smythe pointed to the next hand, and the litany began:
– Great Britain is the best country in the world because we are the most educated.
– Argentina is the best country in the world because we won the futbol cup.
– America is the best country in the world because we develop the most important technology that everyone else in the world depends on.
– Mexico is the best country in the world because we are the most macho.

Smythe was in high gear, practically dancing with amusement as he pointed to one student after another. Finally I realized that what he was asking was not "why is your country the best," but "why do you BELIEVE that your country is the best in the world." Something in my 12-year old head went click, and my hand shot up again.

"I * BELIEVE* that America is the greatest country in the world because that is what I have been taught to believe."

When I came to the USA at 17 years old, I had always thought of myself as American, but found to my surprise that I felt like a foreigner in my own country. The movie "Better Off Dead" came out while I was 17, living in Detroit, and honestly that show still sums up my feeling for American culture. You know the scene of a lovely blazing fireplace with Christmas music playing in the background –
– then the camera pans back, and you see that the hearth is only an image on a TV set
– then the camera pans back some more, and you see that the TV is sitting in the fireplace …

That's America to me, in a nutshell.

This is still my country, and I still think that it is the greatest country in the world. I could still give you a million answers for why I think that it is the greatest country in the world. I pity those that cannot do the same for their country.

I thank God for parents that taught me to love my own land.


Posted by Pete at Home (Member # 429) on :
P.S. I have never considered myself an animist, but I do believe that the entire world is alive. I believe in profit, salvation, heaven, and the superiority of man over the rest of creation.

I believe that heaven is a place that can include our world, and that hell is a state of mind.

I "believe" in capitalism in the same way that I "believe" in gravity and bowel movements; I acknowledge and deal with its existence.

In some respects, I believe that our civilization is superior to every other culture to appear on this planet. In other respects, our civilization may be inferior to every other. In my mind to say that X is better than Y is nonsensical unless you specify "better at what or for what." Every culture has its gifts, strengths, and weaknesses, and to close your eyes to beauty is to create a hell in heaven's despite.


Posted by Falken224 (Member # 684) on :
Well, I do believe an introduction is in order, finally.

Dropped a little line briefly in the 'War Watch' forum, but here's the full deal.

I'm 24, married, white, of mainly Norwegian ancestry (with a hint of German, and the rest all Scandanavian mutt) Christian, non-denominational, though I was raised Seventh-Day Adventist and tend to revert back to that.

I work for the Idaho State Police in their IS department, making web-sites, patching WAY-outdated programs, and helping forge ahead in converting the rest of the U.S.'s law enforcement agencies over to information technologies that make sense.

My political awareness began only about a year ago, and still reflects the utter disdain I feel towards politics in general. I refused to vote until the last election and will probably continue simply as a last ditch effort to curb the stupidity going on in this day and age. Not that I have any REAL hope of that, but I have to try.

I'm a writer, reader, theatre-lover, ex-video-maker, film lover, novice businessman (network marketing), observer, learner, idealist, conservative with a bit of a liberal streak, ex-English-major college dropout, computer gamer, people lover, listener, Star Wars geek, Star Trek hater (with the exception of TNG seasons 3-5), and for a short time at least, a fan of Pete's

Came here from Hatrack, just like most of the others here, I think. :-) OSC r00lz for the most part, but has made a stinker or two. That's it.


Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 682) on :
Falken224, I gather that you hated Wesley Crusher, yet you loved teenaged Luke Skywalker and his adolescent friends. This seems a bit inconsistent.

Did you hear the one about the Andrews University student who took LSDA for a 2300-day trip?

Posted by Pete at Home (Member # 429) on :
I haven't heard that. Have you heard the term for someone who has never dropped acid?
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 682) on :
No, what is it Pete? I do know that Al Kaline used to play right field for the Detroit Tigers.
Posted by Pete at Home (Member # 429) on :
Posted by seagull (Member # 694) on :
I am a 38 years old American citizen, born and raised in Israel.
I was born to a secular family. These days I am a practicing orthodox Jew.
Married, two children.

Favorite Sci-Fi authors that affected my thinking on moral issues (in chronological order):
Ayn Rand, Issac Asimov, Robert A. Heinlein, Richard Bach and Orson Scott Card.

Other authors I like: Ursula LeGuin, Zena henderson, Cordwainer Smith
I like some of: Larry Niven's writing

Non finction: Douglas Hofstadter, Stephen Wolfram.

I came here from hatrack, stayed because of the interesting conversation, and because I couldn't figure why someone as bright and honest as LetterRip was spouting Palestinian Propaganda (see separate thread).

Someday I want to start a thread on whether Arabs are Raman or Varelse (see )

But I want to get to know the people here first. I also have to think about what I want to say a little bit because some of it should not be made public unless it was as fiction.

I wonder does OSC ever visit these forums?

Pete, I also hate introductions, and I value my privacy. But when I saw the introduction from Elimis, I figured I had to introduce myself (somewhat) before I respond on this thread. So much of what he writes in his introduction reminds me of myself at 17!

"Jonathan Livingston" Seagull.

[This message has been edited by seagull (edited July 28, 2002).]

Posted by Pete at Home (Member # 429) on :
Someday I want to start a thread on whether Arabs are Raman or Varelse (see )

I reprinted this so your link works. Note that I placed a space between the link and the closing parenthesis so that the server does not mistake it for part of the URL.

Interesting question. My guess is that some are the one, and that some are the other.

Posted by LetterRip (Member # 310) on :

just won a bet with myself - I figured that was where your nickname came from.


Posted by seagull (Member # 694) on :
I believe that fiction authors have godlike absolute power over their characters (Even atheists and skeptics should be able to agree with that without invalidating their core belief systems). What makes authors interesting to me is what they choose to do with that power.

Ayn Rand uses that power very effectively to convey the message that being selfish is a good thing. My parents both admired Ayn Rand. When I read her writings (I was 15 years old) they hit a chord within me too. I suspect that selfishness has been an integral part of my moral beliefs since then.

When I was 16, I was warned that reading Ayn Rand had a bad influence on young impressionable readers. I did not take these warnings seriously, I liked the writing and their message too much. With the years, I have found that Ayn Rand’s objectivism did not provide the “consistent framework I can use to find answers to hard questions of life” that I was looking for. Elimis, if you like Anthem half as much as I do, I still recommend that you read “Atlas Shrugged”. Her other two books “We the living” and “The fountainhead” were works in progress toward that masterpiece but are still good reading. As you read “Atlas Shrugged”, try to follow some of her minor characters: Eddie Willers, Cheryl Taggart and the “wet nurse”.

Ayn Rand is a cruel God. I have no problem, with the suffering of her heroes, it is necessary for the plot and for presenting the moral dilemmas she wants to address. What bothers me is that she chooses to kill all of her good honest characters that commit the crime of not being as brilliant as her heroes.

Web search on “Cheryl Taggart” gave: which gives an interesting critique of Ayn Rand.

This is one of the reasons that I moved beyond “objectivism”. I think that authors like
Robert A. Heinlein, Richard Bach and Orson Scott Card
Present more interesting and human variations of the selfish theme that I like.

Some of the obscene sex in some of Heinlein’s books is a bad influence on impressionable readers (regardless of their age ). I still read it, but I didn’t like those parts.

I liked Richard Bach’s books especially “Illusions” and “The bridge across forever”. His later books get a little too mystical for my taste. I am not sure that he practices what he preaches. His personal life is not quite what the books would lead you to believe: see his Son’s book “Above the clouds” and an interview at
“Leslie and I are no longer married.”

As for OSC, I love the Ender Game series (including the new ones) , Pastwatch and several others.


[This message has been edited by seagull (edited May 16, 2002).]

Posted by seagull (Member # 694) on :
A Jewish quote that puts selfishness in context for me:


If I am not for myself, who will be for me?
And if am only to myself, who am I?
And if not now when?


Posted by Denelian (Member # 531) on :
seagull -

the only "obscene" sex i know of in any of RAH's work (and i'm pretty sure i've read it all) would be the incest - which if you look at it from HIS view, can be made to seem silly. i don't say i agree with this at all, and i doubt that RAH actually did either, i think that he was just trying to show what happens when a person is able to be completly and totally "free"

i still wouldn't have sex with my dad. and im straight so my sisters are out, no brothers, but i have a second cousin...

Posted by Pete at Home (Member # 429) on :
I liked Atlas Shrugged and The Fountainhead as fiction and enjoyed the provocative philosophical questions, but I agree that Rand does not provide a moral framework to live by! The fact that all of Rand's "heroic" characters are such utter clones of each other (smoking capitalist beautiful same freaking vocabulary same damned personality) reflects the poverty of her sympathetic imagination. Both in life and in fiction, Rand treated those who did not completely measure up to her standard of perfection as utterly damned.

The best piece I have ever read by Ayn Rand was actually a short essay, an epitaph to Marilyn Monroe. Other than the Wynand character in the Fountainhead, it's the only time you see Rand acknowledge the humanity of someone who was not quite perfect, and IMO, this epitaph is the one instance that Rand joins the human race.

And in that moment, reading that earth-shaking article, I'm glad to have her.

Posted by Baldar (Member # 669) on :
I liked Bach and Ayn Rand a great deal. She adds to my moral framework form an economic standpoint but I do question it at a personal level. I think it is part of a life long attempt to reconcile the dichotomy in each of us.

Ayn Rand, in my opinion, attempted to do so by eliminating one portion our dichotomy in place of reconciling it.

Posted by Chiu Chun-Ling (Member # 693) on :
This should be somewhere near the top of the fourth page of this foolishly long and unecessary topic.

I am, of course, in general opposed to participating in topics more than a page long. In this case I have made an exception (I like exceptions) and will point out a few things.

First, every person that wishes to be known can post a short profile, including a link to a home page with additional information. Because this information can be accessed from any post written by the person in question, by anyone that reads said post, it is considerably more accessible and useful to anyone reading the forum. It is also possible to have a web page with pictures, music, multiple links (yes, you could do that here as well, I suppose) and other nifty bells and whistles that are more expressive of the unique style of the profiled person.

Second, these topics are always long and boring and full of information that I don't actually find interesting. If I want to know something about you, I want it to be things that I can pick up from your writing or things that you have taken the trouble to present in a more interesting format. I know that I'm probably alone in this, but so be it.

Third, I think that our advertiser supported websites (like mine) or personally funded websites (like those that come with some IP services) deserve custom for this kind of thing, whereas I feel like these kinds of personal introduction threads are just using up space on the Ornery site servers (I know 'tis not a lot of space, but that's just the way I feel about it).

So for one perfectly good reason, and two more personal reasons, I wish that not so many people posted in this topic.

Posted by Denelian (Member # 531) on :
i think the point here is that we sometimes need something a bit more personal than "I HATE BUSH!!!" or "I HATE CLINTON!!!".
Posted by RedVW on a Laptop (Member # 615) on :
CCL.... sinister? I went to your multimedia presentation of pop up ads and found I know absolutely nothing of relavence about you...thats why we have useless threads like these.
Posted by LisB1121 (Member # 364) on :
I've been avoiding this thread, but what the heck.

I'm 20, female. I'm a senior at a small liberal arts college in Birmingham, AL, but becuase I have a scholarship I'm taking my full 4 years to get out of school. I've lived here all my life, but plan to go to grad school somewhere up North. I am a hitory major, concentrating in Modern Europe. Currently I'm studying a lot of Germany history. I'm planning on getting married after I graduate, but not on having kids for quite a while if I can help it.

I suppose I'm a democratic socialist. I believe strongly in the equality of oppurtunity in high quality education and healthcare, especially for children. I admit, I'm not sure how we as a nation can get there, but I come from a place where we have very rich that have sectioned off their schools from the very poor who can't raise the money to pay for decent buildings and textbooks. I understand that these rich sunburbs have raised there own property taxes to pay for schools, but in the mean time the vast majority is trapped. In the meantime the land rich in rural areas onject to higher property taxes state-wide. I'm am very aware that where I lived played largely into how well ecudated I am, and I don't like it.


Posted by LetterRip (Member # 310) on :
We've had a number of new members lately, so it is time to revisit the introduction thread. Tell us a bit about yourself, and help us get to know you...


Posted by dyany (Member # 773) on :
OK, then, I will intro myself.
My name is Dyany. I like it because it's unique (and I can almost ALWAYS get it for a username. ), but I hate it because no-one can ever pronounce it, so meeting people is instantaneously awkward.

I'm approaching the 3rd anniversary of my 29th birthday here soon. I live in Idaho though I was born in UT and grew up in Oklahoma. I, too, am LDS though I never went to BYU (neener neener). I work in IT as an applications sys. analyst/dba but my degree is in psychology. I've been married 4.25 years and I have no children, though that is not by choice.

I'm opinionated, mouthy, sometimes vitriolic (though I generally try to internalize that), religious, jaded, and a bit neurotically depressed. OK maybe not just a bit but having dealt with a version of bipolar disorder which includes anxiety, depression, OCD, and ADD, I end up being sort of someone who's intensely obsessed about something that makes me worrisome and sad, but only for about 2 minutes until I forget.

I like Truth, independence, people-watching, gardening, cross-stitch, reading, writing (and yes, arithmetic -- calculus *rules*), animals (have 2 cats, 2 birds & 4 fish), computer games, history, philosophy, music (play 4 instruments + vocal), electronic gadgetry, figuring out how things work, crossword and logic puzzles, genealogy, children, dabbling in house design, some TV and movies. I am currently working on accepting the fact that I cannot do all of these things all of the time, at least not well, and it has me very depressed (see paragraph 3).

Politically, I have been called a 'socio-republican' -- I believe very strongly in values that include fairness (C.E.O.s are NOT worth even 100 times a 'grunt' who labors all day in the factory, so they should never earn that much or more), value in human life, and a strong belief that there is a God who lives in all levels of detail, but because we don't know all of the details and most people on the earth teach what their 'interpretation' is rather than pure Truth, there is a lot of confusion out there and people sure get cranky about it. That sounds more negative than it needs to...everyone is on a different step, with different challenges, so it's silly to get cranky about it.

Oh, and I talk too much. =)

Posted by timeskimo (Member # 731) on :
Hey, I am timeskimo. I am not an eskimo, nor am I named tim, but I have an inexplicable fondness for the name Tim, and should I ever have a son, I'll probably go with that one. As to eskimos, I know it's not quite politically correct, but I just like the word. I am 14, male, currently inhabiting south-central TX, and hate it here, so as soon as I finish high school, I'm getting out of this city, preferably out of the state. I'm currently a freshman in high school, band nerd hardcore, and have some very very small literary ambitions. I've got massive superiority complexes, but considering how much more intelligence I find on Ornery than around me, I'm thinking they might be justified.

Big on music, can't stand the folks who try to be stereotypes. By those who know me well, voted either a genius, a madman, or just enough of both to make it big someday. Depressive tendencies, fixation/obsession on strange things, self-hatred, talk to myself and laugh at jokes nobody hears, and basically am regarded as slightly off-balance, if not more. Politically, I stay away from organized parties, but the Dems seem to make sense more often than the Republicans. Am adamantly opposed to Bush. Not that Gore could be much better, but Bush can't cut it, plain and simple. Theologically, an atheist/agnostic who believes that if there is a god, he either doesn't care or hates us all. No absolute morals, ethics only. Me.

Posted by Kaiser Soren (Member # 780) on :
Hi there. I've been lurking off and on on and OSC-related web pages for a while now, and I figured it was about time to finally register and start posting. This seemed the right place for my intro to myself.

I'm 22 years old, male, heterosexual, living in Arlington, VA, and a recent college grad, no career yet. I think I'm a moderate on the American political spectrum, and have grown to distrust both parties because I believe they've both come to see the American political landscape in a simplistic "us-versus-them" framework, a liberal/conservative dichotomy, which I feel is destructive, unrealistic, and makes most rational debate so much more difficult.

I believe in individual rights, I think the NRA makes much more sense than gun-control advocates, and I see no reason why in this society gays shouldn't be allowed to marry and adopt. My views on foreign affairs are confused and contradict each other, and even after taking a degree in International Affairs I feel I don't really understand the world enough to sit back and make meaningful pronouncements on how the U.S. should conduct itself. Thus, my desire to go out and take a job abroad, and then to go on to grad school for a master's degree. I voted for Al Gore once, and I fear that one day I may have to do so again.

Now, whether I make the full jump from lurker to active participant, THAT remains to be seen.

Posted by Luny (Member # 649) on :
You know, sometimes I dislike hanging out around here. It makes me realize just how often I have no idea what people are talking about. Politics I haven't got a clue about... ethics I understand. At least I tend to look at Ornery as a learning experience. Maybe if I hang out with you people long enoughm osmosis will grant me some sort of understanding, you think?
Posted by Tom Grey - Tigger (Member # 741) on :
46 married white male seeks fine conversation. I'm happy with a Slovak wife and 3 kids (6++, 5+, justabout 4), living in Bratislava, 50 miles East of Vienna, ex-Commie (ex-Czechoslovakia).

Love OSC, agree with a lot of his opinions; especially on religion. Previously a radical agnostic, raised Episcopalian, (missing spellcheck), agreed to raise our kids Catholic and am fairly happy.

The Acton Institute and the Center for Economic Personalism seem to embody an excellent combination of Mises' "Human Action" with Karol Wolyta (now Pope) "The Acting Person". Freedom, with Morals and responsibility. Michael Novak is an important thinker in this area. --I'm libertarian (RAH "Moon is Harsh Mistress"), but not so materialistic, and now pretty strong against promiscuity (and that aspect of my prior life). Adultery is a terrible violation of a promise (contract). And the adulterer becomes one.

Men ARE from Mars; Women from Venus. If you want a better relationship, read that book.

I read tons of Sci-Fi when young; loved all 8 Harry Potter books (4 in English, same 4 in Slovak). Hovorim po Slovensky, ale mam zlu grammatiku (I speak Slovak, but have bad grammar.) I should be studying now instead of reading pages 1 & 4 and adding my notes. I think having this intro thread is great.

I'm doing more Blog reading now, too. Should have my own sometime.

Hope to write some notes to some more of you in the not too distant future. And happy to receive (and parenthetical jokes, too.)

The Kagan article on Weakness and Power is the best note about the different view from Europe.

Enjoy life -- practice virtue.
Tom Grey (fun fun Tigger)

oh yeah, computer games eat up my life, too.

Posted by branmuffin (Member # 793) on :
Hi, I am a 18 year old male college freshman at Vanderbilt University in Nashville, TN. When not at college, I live in Memphis, TN. I was referred to this site by "Nathan" on here. It seems pretty cool, and I enjoy talking about issues and such. It'll help me keep up with current events better too, which the college life has drawn me away from since I am busy a lot.

I have conservative viewpoints, and I am Southern Baptist, so that's a big part of where my views that I will post will be from

I enjoy baseball, sports, the Internet, music, books, friends, fun, long walks on the beach.....

I have lived in Hattiesburg, MS and Memphis, TN, and I have traveled to Buenos Aires, Argentina for 2 weeks this past April.

So hello people <waves> and I hope there will be interesting discussions here, and I'm part of them!

Posted by maniacal_engineer (Member # 116) on :
41 (when did that happen?) male, second marriage, 10 kids, LDS. Mechanical engineer, BSME, major in japanese, MSME. went to BYU grew up in LA (actually woodland hills in the archetypically suburban San Fernando Valley)
Iwas in the dumb group in school, until they measured my IQ in 3rd grade and decided I was several sigma above the mean. Not that I believe it but it did open a lot of doors. Accordingly I hate labels that limit people (dumb group)IOW a label that someone else puts on you. but if you put a label on yourself then I feel free to use that to judge you. Like when kids wear REALLY stupid clothes, put in REALLY stupid piercings, get REALLY stupid tatoos, and then grouse about why people treat them like they are REALLY stupid.
I hate deliberate stupidity.
Politics are libertarian (small L) Republican (big r) and I ususally vote against almost every proposition on a california ballot.
I have an interst in alternative energy, but realize that the reason it isn't being used is that it isn't actually economic yet, and not because of some oil company/ trilateral commision/ Jewish banker/ black helicopter/ second gunman/ aliens in area 51 conspiracy.
Posted by Lared135 (Member # 792) on :
Greetings all, my first name is Joe, but you can refer to me as Lared if you wish. If you have read OSC's book The Worthing Saga, you will find that the description of Lared (Laraled) describes me better than most. I am 41, married with a step daughter and live somewhere in the PRM (Peoples Republic of Maryland). I am very much a conservative and do my best to avoid going postal given how liberal the Maryland legislature and government in general have proven themselves in supporting the rights of criminals over law abiding citizens.

I am new to The Ornery American, but will be joining the fray as time permits. If you want to know more about me, please feel free to ask, if not, then don't ask... I strongly believe that Government should stay out of the every day lives of people and should provide only the essential services needed and that individuals should do what needs to be done by themselves. Too many young folks today think that everything should be given to them on a silver platter... I feel that if you do not earn something, then you will not cherish it... so earn it and get on with your life.

Joe aka Lared

Posted by hoot owl (Member # 236) on :
33, new father. My 3 month old son is the joy of my life. Raised in the Bible Belt of Texas, converted to LDS at 22 yrs. old (my mother insists that I've joined a cult). BASEET (not as good as a BSEE, I know, but only the geeks will understand). Navy veteran, 6 years as a radar tech. Politically, I am almost apathetic, believing that common sense is neither practiced or expected. Have none of my own (another reason for my apathy), but stereotyped as "gifted" in elementary school.

Read more fantasy than sci-fi, but have enjoyed all of OSC's work that I've read so far. Also love to tinker and write. Would be heavy into photography if I could afford it. Love most types of music, but have especial fondness for Celtic and folk (including Cajun), and avoid Brittany and boy bands.

I design IC masks. Don't ask, it's technical, and not terribly exciting. I sit in front of a computer all day. Never seem to have time for anything. Will probably post sporadically.

Posted by BanderLog (Member # 798) on :
I'm 27 and work for a biotech company in Salt Lake City. I'm about to finish an MBA and am applying to medical school. I'm married, have two kids, and don't sleep nearly as much as I'd like.

I think most politicians are weak, immoral people who like to control others by telling people what they want to hear. I think Macchiavelli was the best political writer in history and many of our nation's problems would be solved by someone with the guts to pe properly ruthless. I also don't know much about politics, so please disregard everything I just said.

To Tigger,

I used to live in Bratislava as well, and I spoke both Czech and Slovak fluently. That was six years ago and I'm now married to a Polish lady, so now I don't speak coherently in any Slavic language. Is there still a Kmart and a Little Ceasar's in downtown Bratislava?

Posted by maniacal_engineer (Member # 116) on :
so hoot owl,
is an "eye see" mask one that has holes in it so you don't run into things? I am right now designing injection molded plastic parts for printers so that people can kill more trees. (well that isn't why but it is the net result)
Posted by hoot owl (Member # 236) on :
M_E, I knew you would understand. It's so refreshing to have other geeks to converse with! What I do doesn't kill trees, though, just inoffensive little silicons.

Banderlog, welcome. I'm down in Draper, but I work in Murray.

Posted by JonathanTheOmnipotent (Member # 797) on :
I'm nineteen, in my junior year of majoring in Computer Science and most likely minoring in Math. I live in a suite style cooking dorm--I make much better food than Stony Brook University offers.

For the past four summers--and for at least the future two--I've worked as a counselor at a sleep away summer camp (my unit's age group is seven to ten). Sometime though I'm going to have to get an internship.

I consider myself a retired Jew, retired from religion altogether. I'm liberal and I believe any form of government works as long as you can trust the people in charge. The perfect way to do this I think is to have the politicians live as socialists; take away all their belongings, give them governmentally funded living arrangements based on the national average income, and don't allow them to control a single dollar. That way, your senator's lust for money can't corrupt him because he isn't allowed to have any. Only the people who truly care for nothing other than serving their country will want to work in politics.

My goal in life is to work on video games, especially the artificial intelligence aspect, until I'm forty-five whereupon I retire and begin writing national bestsellers. It's just a dream, though.

I'm not always in the middle of reading a book, but I am constantly on the lookout for something that intrigues me, and I have plenty on my to-do list. I also write some of my own stories, spending more time actually thinking about them than actually writing them. I split the rest of my hobby life feeding my insatiable fetish for computer technology, reading news on the net, playing WarCraft III, and building the best Magic: the Gathering decks under creation.

I think OSC is a pretty damned good writer. Other than that, it amazes me how I can completely disagree with him on most things when he writes essays on

And, yes, I really am omnipotent.

Posted by maniacal_engineer (Member # 116) on :
hoot, I worked as an epi operator at Signetics in Orem while I was getting my BSME at BYU.
Posted by maniacal_engineer (Member # 116) on :
i am bumping this to the top because I am curious about the name sohryu asuka langley. Sounds japanese, but maybe in the CIA

Posted by FlagStone (Member # 262) on :
I am old.
Posted by Grant Morgan (Member # 194) on :
Just out of curiousity, how many Utahns are on this board? Maybe the midwesterners shouldn't be the only ones having an OrneryCon.

Thus far I've counted me, Peter, Banderlog and Hoot Owl. ME, are you still in Utah?

Posted by Puretext (Member # 823) on :
I protest! Two separate conferences is just not fair.
Posted by maniacal_engineer (Member # 116) on :
san diego CA. (much better weather than the midwest)
dont you just hate how californians are weather snobs?

Posted by Puretext (Member # 823) on :
What's amazing is that they can be weather snobs when it's very clear that there is no weather in California. Actually, I can't say that from my own experience, but I know my parents moved to Oklahoma because they were bored with CA weather.
Posted by maniacal_engineer (Member # 116) on :
I very much enjoyed 'la story' with steve martin, in which he plays an LA weatherman hwo pre-records his forecast so that he can go on a romantic getaway with sarah jessica parker.
vintage steve martin and does a good job of spoofing SoCal foibles - like the restaraunt L'idiot where they ask for your net worth before they accept a reservation.

Posted by msquared (Member # 113) on :

We have the exact same type of weather you have, but we only have it for a total of two or three days out of a year.

I love the seasonal changes. Right now we are in prime leaf season and soon we will have snow, at least I hope so. And I will not have to cut the grass anymore.


Posted by Everard on :
Msquared, your wisdom in this matter is unsurpassed!
Posted by Dan Allen (Member # 238) on :
What's amazing is that they can be weather snobs when it's very clear that there is no weather in California. Actually, I can't say that from my own experience, but I know my parents moved to Oklahoma because they were bored with CA weather.

If you want boring weather, try Phoenix.
Posted by Puretext (Member # 823) on :
um... no. But I would like some snow with my freezing rain...


Posted by Kent (Member # 832) on :
My name is Kent.

I am 27, married, with 3 daughters.

I have been reading essays and posts from this website since its inception and I decided I might as well register and make an introduction post.

I have a BA in Near Eastern Studies (I always have to explain it is what we call the Middle East) and my Hebrew is pretty remedial now, but a minor in Spanish actually taught me that language. Hugh Nibley inspired me to study the subject of ancient civilizations and I know that he is probably one who inspired OSC to be a Democrat. I also hold an unofficial minor in anti-mormon studies, great fun!

I am a Mormon living in Utah (Thanksgiving Point for those who know) and served an LDS mission in Sonora, Mexico.

I have loved OSC before I knew who he was (he is kind and gracious in person) and I've read every book of fiction he's written as well as some non-fiction. Next to my parents, he has basically formed my concept of Jesus and love through his scripts for Living Scripture audio tapes. (My whole family quotes from them at random.) I can't recommend them more highly.

I am somewhat obsessed with the Constitution of the USA and the rule of law as my primary consideration for all political issues. I am a libertarian (small "l") for the most part and would like to see the three branches of government function as the founding fathers intended. (I would especially like to repeal the ammendment that allows us to vote directly for senators, resulting in far too little accountability to the most powerful "state" representatives).

Anyway, I have my own business doing whatever makes money and is interesting at the time.

Scott (and you other pro-life, conservative Democrats), why are you a Democrat NOW? To which principles or platforms of the Democratic Party do you subscribe TODAY? Would you disagree that Dubya doesn't stand for most everything that JFK embodied back when? I personally see the Republican party today as the Democratic Party before LBJ.

Anyway, just because I have a degree in studying the Near East (I mean Middle East (all of our geographic terms come from England in academia) doesn't mean I see anything there more clearly, so shoot me when I'm wrong. To you Jews...lahitraot!

[This message has been edited by Kent (edited November 13, 2002).]

Posted by TheSilentAssassin (Member # 829) on :
Well, I live in Lubbock, Texas. and I'm a 21 yr old College student. I consider myself somewhat conservative, but don't really have a specific political affiliation. I seem to agree more with the Republicans, but am woefully ignorant of most issues. I love sci/fi and OSC, and I am three semesters away from a B.A. in English Creative Writing with a minor in Philosophy. I hope to be a famous author someday, but that will have to wait until I actually start writing on a regular basis. In the meantime, I hope to get a job with a publishing company when I graduate. I currently work at the University in the Dept. of Microbiology as a webmaster/tech support guy.

I know a little about a lot of things, but whenever discussion involves math, my eyes glaze over immediately. I started as a CS major, but had to switch when I got to Cal III and realized I didn't have a clue what was going on.

I love this website, although I find many of the discussions to be over my head. I tend to be somewhat anal about other people's spelling, but I keep it to myself, and tend to have a fair number of typos of my own.

I guess that's it....

Posted by Kilthmal (Member # 547) on :
I'm a first year undergrad at Georgia Tech as a declared Aerospace Engineering major, but leaning towards changing to CS. I only picked Aerospace because I get in-state tuition because of the Academic Common Market.

I was born in New Braunfels, Texas, but I've lived most of my life in the low country in South Carolina.

I think for most of my life until senior year of high school my main personality was simply that of adopting whatever idea is most ludicrous for the moment. I’ve been trying to move away from that to a nontrivial one. I also have something of an addictive personality, having logged several thousand hours on a mud (multi-user-dungeon something like Everquest only text based and much nerdier), having read all of the Wheel of Time several times, and having gone through several other very intense and fleeting infatuations. These personality traits have caused me to be easily influence by authors.

My author of choice at the moment is David Brin who’s caused me to take longer looks at ideas I hadn’t fully explored (eugenics of all the higher animals, optimism, and transparency being the greatest). One of my bigger disgruntlements is not having something that will explicitly quantify me. I have no real passions, besides, perhaps, politics and other questions of power and the future.

My name as some of you have already guessed came from Kill Them All. It has an innocuous origination. It was my nomer when I played video games (Diablo really distilled a great feeling of moral rectitude) that had to be shorted for some 16-bit system and that I’ve since used whenever I want a name without 666-69 after it

As you can tell I ramble down a great many tangents when I’m not ranting (which denotes a proliferation of parenthetical notation). I also enjoy silly and ironic humor ( anyone?) so don’t mind me if I bust out with some nonsensical post, I’m conscientious enough to remain foremost a lurker on this board to reduce pollution.
Ok, I think that’s enough any of you will want to ever know about me and if not, I’ve enough words to exhaust any of your curiosities.

Thank you for your time,

[EDIT]Added in some line breaks so I could actually READ it.

[This message has been edited by Kilthmal (edited February 06, 2003).]

Posted by Puretext (Member # 823) on :
Finally. another english major. Perhaps now we can finally have that discussion on soft rhyme, alliteration, the ubi sunt, and narrative poetry...

or maybe not.

Posted by LetterRip (Member # 310) on :
Greetings to our newest members,

We've had quite a few indivudals sign up or delurk lately, so I'd like to welcome you, and encourage you to tell us a bit about yourself in our introduction thread,


Posted by Denelian (Member # 531) on :

so, to quote m^2 "We have the exact same type of weather you have, but we only have it for a total of two or three days out of a year.

I love the seasonal changes. Right now we are in prime leaf season and soon we will have snow, at least I hope so. And I will not have to cut the grass anymore.


hehehehehehe. its snowing more in Dayton! its snowing more in Dayton!

see, my problem is that while i live in columbus oh, i am FROM CA (well, northern. the part that really does have weather) and i bought a mustang. and its rear-wheel drive. and they don't salt the road liek they are supposed too.

i have no clue how i havn't died yet (driving 10 mph under, i guess)

hey, marc, is that mini-blizzard worth not mowing your (beautiful) lawn???


Posted by EvanWeeks (Member # 883) on :
Hello, oh ornery ones...

I'm 23, male, living on an Air Force Base smaller than most corporate compounds, in the middle of Alabama. Montgomery, to be exact. Currently, I'm a Senior Airman in the US Air Force, also working part time as a barkeep at a local TGIF.

I'm left of the center on cultural concerns, but I like to think of myself as realistic on most everything. I've got a wee bit of college education under my belt. I'm about to finish my Bachelor's Degree in Computer Science from Grantham College in Redmond, WA. Yeah, it's one of those interesting new over-the-'net things. It's actually kinda neat. Ask me about it if you want.

I'm originally from the Atlanta, GA area, born in Little Rock, AR. Grew up in the middle of nowhere, Mississippi, then moved to Georgia when my dad figured out there was more money for a microbiologist there, and that having 3 kids and a wife and supporting them on $20K/yr sucks.

Will I make a career out of the Air Force? Possibly. I want my Masters in Computer Science and an additional Bachelor's in Mathematics Education, as my primary goal in this whole thing is to teach kids math. I see a lot of people these days with negligible logical skills, and I think, if they'd had a good teacher for EARLY math, they might have developed real skills for logical thinking. *shrugs* You know the rap. Changing the world, one kid at a time.

Anyways. That's me. Evan T. Weeks at your service.

Posted by msquared (Member # 113) on :
Yes Den it is.

I love snow. The kids love snow. The dog loves snow. Mrs. msquared loves snow.

In fact we have been thinking of moving up to the upper Michigan peninsula when we retire. We hear that they gets lots of snow up there.


Posted by Everard on :
North Shore of Superior is good for that... they measure snow in feet up there.
Posted by stormghost (Member # 853) on :
Following precedent, I'll expound in greater detail than is available elsewhere on the 'Net.

I want to avoid too-blatant self-promotion, but I'll start by admitting that I'm an author of nonfiction who hopes to write a publishable short story or novel one day (and then continue with more ). I won't go into any more detail here; those who care may look at my profile for the link to my web site. (If you chance to follow that link, I hope you don't mind the circular argument that points you back to the Ornery front page.)

I was born 38 years ago in Atlanta, Georgia, and grew up in the sleepy mill town of Georgetown, South Carolina (between Myrtle Beach and Charleston). North of Georgetown is the "arrogantly shabby" Pawleys Island, where a ghost known as the "Gray Man" appears to warn residents about approaching hurricanes. Having taken the Gray Man as my alter ego, "stormghost" seemed a fitting nom-de-plume.

Clemson University bestowed on me a BSME, albeit reluctantly since I squeaked through most of my math and engineering courses (English and humanities saved my GPA). Later I acquired an MS in Management. I consider myself a "failed" engineer.

I'm in my 17th year as a US Air Force officer, having been at various times a bioenvironmental engineer, a launch complex engineer, an instructor, a truck driver, a satellite operator, etc. My duty stations have included Offutt AFB, Nebraska; Edwards AFB and Vandenberg AFB, California; Thule Air Base, Greenland; etc. We're stationed in Northern Virginia now. By "we," I include my wife and our two children (ages 15 and 11).

I may as well tackle now the twin favorites of religion and politics.

I'm a Christian, more devoted than devout, familiar with and respectful of many traditions. I've also read the Koran, Lao Tzu, etc., which have opened my eyes to other ideas but also focused my vision on Christ.

The GOP is my party of choice, though I exhibit a streak of libertarianism now and again. I might be considered a "liberal" in the literal sense of espousing individual freedom, with the caveats that rights carry responsibilities; one of the chief freedoms is the freedom to fail; and exercising choice means accepting the consequences of those choices. (Avoiding any consistency, foolish or otherwise, I support and work for improvements in public education.)

I own more guns than cars. I commute to work in a little Ford pickup. My midlife crisis car, whenever I can afford it, will be a truck.

My music taste is eclectic. I own more LP records than CDs, and expect that some of those LPs will never make it CD unless I do it myself. Growing up I gravitated to Rush, ELP, Led Zeppelin, Lynyrd Skynyrd, Kansas, etc.; later, Hootie & the Blowfish, Indigo Girls, Sinead O'Connor, Enigma, etc. Mostly I listen to contemporary Christian music: Chris Rice, Jennifer Knapp, Steven Curtis Chapman, Newsboys, Third Day, etc. To illustrate my brand of arrogance, if I could choose a theme song for my life, it would be "New World Man" by Rush. As for making music, I sing; sometimes I know a few guitar chords.

On my SF bookshelf: lots of Heinlein, lots of Card, several Niven, plus a smattering of Forward, LeGuin, Brin, Silverberg. On other shelves: Ayn Rand, Kurt Vonnegut, Daniel Boorstin, John Keegan. Occasionally I fixate on reading things I missed in my engineering education, so I've picked up the odd Shakespeare, Hemingway, A.C. Doyle, Arthur Heller, Melville. I'll never have time to read all the books I own, because I keep buying more then checking out others from the library! I most recently finished Peggy Noonan's When Character Was King. The next fiction I read will be Card's Lost Boys, which I bought with my Christmas gift card.

And that, my virtual friends, is more than you ever wanted to know! I wish I had enough time for posting to make up for my long-time (2 years) lurking, but I type too slowly and usually go to bed too early. Hopefully I can add some germane comments to a few threads now and then.

I return you now to your regularly scheduled programming, and remain at your service,


PS for Kentuckian: I believe my best friend might have taught one or more of your history classes at Murray State. He left last year to return to Mississippi State, where in December he received his Doctorate; he would have been known for a unique teaching style (including wielding a plastic axe while lecturing on Viking exploits). Let me know! G

Posted by Denelian (Member # 531) on :
Evan -

you're at Maxwell?? (well, Gunter or howver its spelled)
my dad was at Maxwell until he retired - and my ex-husband at Gunter. lol, small world!

being that i am an AF brat, i guess i had a good chance of knowing where you were

Posted by EvanWeeks (Member # 883) on :

Yep! Been here for the last 3 years. It's not as bad as I make it out to be. If I didn't have tons of friends to run around with and get in trouble with, it wouldn't be nearly as fun.

Who's your ex? I might know him!


Posted by Denelian (Member # 531) on :
nope, he got out of the AF something like 7 years ago.

nice thought, though

>I< hated alabama, but im from CA... where there isn't all that bloody HUMIDITY!!!!

Posted by Denelian (Member # 531) on :
bye the way, my sister and i spent YEARS in and out of both Gunter and Maxwell (and dated waaaaaay too many Airmen lol. and almost all of them were into computers. cuz our dad was a Senior Master Sergeant, computer programmer) we might know people you know, or know people who know people that you know. we're gonna pool names and such, as to who we know that should still be there...

lets see. Jason Rummel is gone... and John Barrett.. is SGT McFadden still there? my ex and i used to play spades with him at lunch. Mike Skidmore maybe, we called him "skidmarks" and he hated it <G> Ken Kelly??? we're just shooting in the dark. we're really too young to know so many people who could be out by now <G> and those who are prolly still there, we only know first names, mostly. except for this one OSI officer... but you know what the OSI does??? it involves catepillars...

Posted by cesare borgia (Member # 846) on :
Hey everybody!

(waiting for "hey dr. nick!")

My name's Ben, and I'm a 17-year old "senior in high school" who's actually a sophomore in college, majoring in political science, (more on that in the school vouchers thread). I like history, and I like international affairs (I even started the International Affairs Club at my college), but it's all pretty knew to me, because I've really only discovered it in the lsat two years.

I was raised to be a liberal jew, (although I'm viciously right wing on the Israel-Palestine issue), but I try to keep an open mind on most matters.

I'm just here to learn, so if I say something stupid, catch me on it (I think Baldar already knew that though)...


Posted by suntranafs (Member # 723) on :
Hah! So I'm not the only one. I'm 18 and a Math/Phys major though. Wonder how many more there are on this neck of cyber-space.
Posted by suntranafs (Member # 723) on :
Maybe I ought to start a club like that, to.
Posted by Everard on :
Well, I TEACH physics... does that count?
Posted by Redskullvw (Member # 188) on :
Oh this would be that thread. I know its a pain but maybe you can cut and paste what the new people wrote so that we have this in one place?
Posted by Redskullvw (Member # 188) on :
That is 81 out of 1015 people. *% of you have posted a bit about yourselves. Come on you can do better.
Posted by Puretext (Member # 823) on :
fsking five page thread...
Posted by AnotherSeeker (Member # 951) on :
what happened to "new kids on the block?"
Posted by OrneryMod (Member # 977) on :
It was locked becuase Puretext was actually looking for this thread. Any one who posted in the "New Kids on The Block" thread should cut and paste their info here. If they want to.


Posted by Colin JM0397 (Member # 916) on :
From the locked thread...
Colin – not colon. 30, evil white male
Married 9 months to Amy.
We live Mt. Vernon, OH - 40 miles north of Columbus, have 3 cats, 2 dogs, a horse, and no kids - maybe some day, but neither of us care much for the idea at this time.

Amy DVM, me technical writer with BA in English from OSU (literature & creative writing).
Recently graduated after 11 years of swearing I hate OSU (school wise, not sports WE'RE NUMBER 1 WHOOO-WHOOO) and dropping out one less time than I went back.

I joined the Army reserves straight out of high school and am just about to hit 13 years in – I’m a SFC. Never technically served on active duty, but have been activated for a tour in Bosnia and attended more schools and training missions than I care to list. Served 4 years in intelligence for an SF unit, and have been in Psyops ever since.

Last summer I realized the Republicans do things that irritate me as often as things I agree with, so I joined the Libertarian party. While I’ll attack the leftist with the best of ‘em, partisan politics just for the sake of disagreeing really irritates me.

I read a lot of conspiracy theory stuff, but don’t buy into all of it. However, I wouldn’t waste my time with it if I didn’t think there’s some truth to it.
I believe the world is quite different than the surface view most have. I think most people won’t look at “crazy” conspiracy stuff because, in some dark place of their mind, they are afraid it might be true and that’d shatter their perceptions of self, life, country, God, and so on.

I like to work out, run, cook, play ice hockey, soccer, read, hang with the wife and/or friends, and attempt to write creatively when I get the time.

After being a suburbanite for my entire life, I’m growing to like the rural life and learning to ride horses.

I have a goofy, dry sense of humor that more often than not just gets me blank stares like I’m crazy. Oh well, if I say something it’s 100% for my own amusement; if anyone else thinks it’s funny, it’s that much better.

Oh yea, raised Lutheran - still go to church occasion, but searching for something more fulfilling.
I think most organized religion is better at keeping the herd in check than providing us with absolution.

Posted by Puretext (Member # 823) on :
For the record, the thread was sort-of locked at my request. I couldn't stand the title of the thread any more. It's what I get for posting late at midnight. I asked OrneryMod to change the title, but all she could do was lock it. So she locked it.


Posted by pseudoCode (Member # 771) on :
I'm 29, Male, living in NY state's capital district (USA). I joined the US Army shortly after leaving high school for a 1-year stint in the infantry / air defense artillery before getting into the signal corps where I became a pro hacker.
I've been tinkering with computers and programming since the 4th grade and I do it for a living.
My views lean towards the conservative side of the fence with hawkish tendencies. The few places I have deviation from the conservative norm are in the areas of recreational marijuana use (I'm not a smoker, however ... really!) and in the application of capital punishment.
I'm an avid reader and knowledge-seeker. I prefer sci-fi to fantasy in fiction and the only real non-fiction I read is the news (going out on a limb there!).

Posted by Kilthmal (Member # 547) on :
PsuedoCode, I can't get the link in your profile to work. Is it old?


Posted by Kamisaki (Member # 917) on :
(Pasted from other thread)

I'm Craig, 22, from Henderson, Nevada.
I'm currently doing my undergraduate work for a degree in electrical engineerin at Brigham Young University in Provo, Utah.

I'm getting married in two weeks to Sarah, and I'm really excited about that. Wedding plans, along with preparations for finals this week, are keeping me pretty busy right now.

As far as my political views go, I'm still forming them in a lot of areas (that's one of the main reasons I'm here at Ornery), but I find I usually agree with the right on the issues I know about. I don't know much about economics, though, so I don't have much of an opinion at all on those issues. I'm a registered Republican, and I don't see myself switching parties anytime soon, but who knows, someone may come up with a better alternative.

Posted by Manfoom (Member # 819) on :
My name is Damian. Manfoom is a completely invented name, and the unfortunate result of a gambit in Scrabble.

I suffer from chronic flippancy.

I have a BA in Humanities,mostly because they had the best reading lists. I have a minor is Zoology, and have studdied quite a bit of Art History, Film, and Chemistry

I work in a laboratory, doing Cancer research for other people.

I am single, white, male and from an economically comfortable family. Despite what my education has said, I don't feel to guilty about that.

I am an enigma, wrapped in a paradox, covered in chocolate sprinkles.

My political affiliations run a wide spectrum. I have voted for Republicans more than for any other party, but not by much. The locals that I support are usually Democratic, but I can be convinced of many of the Libertarian goals. The problem is that the Libertarians are a bunch of Kooks

I believe in Public Education, and Private health care.

I am a religious Mormon, which drives my ideology, but I will try not to beat you over the head with it. Just as Martin Luther King was driven by his beliefs, I feel that religious motivation should be allowed in the public forum, but I don't believe that my religious affiliation gives me any divine right to win arguments (it is my stunning prose that does that).

I am many things to many people, but mostly in my imagination. I have done several things that you don't care about, and a couple of things that you would find offensive, but at least one thing that you would all be proud of.

Also, I type porly.

Posted by Alvin (Member # 168) on :
Hi, I’m Alvin. I’m a recently, April 14, turned 40 y/o husband of 18 years and father of three.

I’ve been posting here in spurts since November of 2000 or so.

I am from the suburbs of New Orleans, (NAWLIN’S) and a product of 12 years of fine Christian Brothers Catholic education.

I have far less education than most of the older folks here, As I failed out of or withdrew from three different Universities Tulane, LSU and UNO before I reached 20.J A side benefit of living in close proximity to the French Quarter I am sure.

I have been a laborer, construction worker, suit salesman, grocer, commercial fisherman,I spent 12 years in the navy as a sailor, janitor, Electronics Technician, Nuclear Engineer, Teacher of Nuclear Physics, Reactor Design , Materials Sciences, Chemistry, Thermodynamics, Electronics controls systems design. I’ve been fortunate enough to spend the majority of my time as an engineer doing RD first on the Nuclear side. Now I work for an equipment company doing RD at IBM’s TJ Watson Laboratory and the Semiconductor Research and Development Center labs in NY where I spend most of my time as an overpaid pot scrubber.

I am a Vet of the First Gulf War CGN 37 USS South Carolina, Saratoga Battle group.

I finally got around to graduating in 1995 with a B.Sc. in Political Science and Sociology from S.U.N.Y.

I spend most of my time raising my children, Krista 17, Shaun, 13 and Nicholas 11. I coach basketball and baseball and spend my free time trying to educate myself and volunteering.

I enjoy reading, all types of music, and sports. I like building things with my hands and working with people far more than technology, I work in my yard and I watch the deer and the turkey roam around.

I am religious, I detest labels of all types and I try and vote for good people.

Many of my positions are derived far more from empathy and feelings and based on observations of people rather than on fact, though when I have the time I try to substantiate or disprove my positions with research and facts. “sigh” Though it seems there is never enough time.

I don’t claim to know much more than right and wrong. I try and always stand up for what I believe and try to teach my children to do the same.

I always vote to ensure I have license to bitch and if you don’t vote please start.

If I had any clue where or how to start, and thought I could support my family, I’d love to write.

I am very passionate about my family, my opinions and my sports teams “sigh again” The Mets and the Saints.

My two favorite quotes kind of sum up where I come from and are

“If you judge people, you have no time to love them” – Mother Theresa


“The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who won’t do anything about it” – Albert Einstein

Ornery is a great place to expand horizons and have great conversation, I hope it stays that way.


Posted by The Traveler (Member # 640) on :
I am not really from anywhere around here. I am a visitor on temporary assignment. I am employed in the automation and robotics industry in order to obtain necessary currency. I read from this forum mostly to gather information and do research. From time to time I may post to ask some question in attempt to understand certain posters.

I have interest in Politics and Religion. I am interested why so many people that are so ill informed seem to be the most intense oppinions in these subjects. It would appear that the better informed the more open to other opinions posters are. This is a rather long thread and I do not plan to read many post on this thread. My time for internet is limited. I wish all well

The Traveler


Posted by KnightEnder on :
I'm John L. Myers IV from Houston, Texas (League City to be exact). I'm 35 and I've been married 15 years to my beautiful wife Stacy. I have two sons, John V (13), and Jacob Ryan (10) (John of course is named after me and Jake after John Wayne's "Big Jake" & Nolan Ryan). They both are honor students and John is in the gifted and talented program. Also, they both are all-star baseball players. They say “yes sir” and “no sir” and “I love you, Dad” although John doesn’t like to say it in front of his friends anymore. We’re the kind of family that says “I love you” when we leave the room. I’m very proud of them and they are my reason for living.

I played football in college and pro-softball for about 12 years after that (I missed being on a team). (In pro-softball they pay you thousands of dollars and fly you around the country. It's crazy, but who am I to argue.)

I hate to work out, but I do it to stay in shape and to play ball.

I've been a Sales Engineer for 12 years and I'm the Business Development Manager for the Southern Region.

I'm an atheist, who has been accused of being left wing, although I'm very patriotic and support the president and the recent war.

I read a lot. OSC is my favorite, WEB Griffin, Grisham, and Heinlein are also great. I write, I'm about two-thirds through with my novel "Justifiable Murder" (police book, my dad was a police officer for 25 years, and they say you write what you know.) and I have several short sci-fi stories that I will be entering in the Phobos and L. Ron Hubbard contests.

Astros, Texans, and Rockets. Craig Biggio is God.

Knight Ender
(You can see me on my profile here.)


Posted by AnotherSeeker (Member # 951) on :
Ye olde cut-n-paste

Hi All -
Western Washingtonian myself. Olympia.

Shannon. 34. Mother of 1, Nathan - age 9. One cat, Pepper and one gold fish, Raisin. BA in Community Sevices (Social Work) with my emphasis in history and political science from St. Martin's. That said - I am here to learn. There's always more to learn.

I work in government doing a lot of technical writing, research, contract management, etc. I currently work in the comprehensive early childhood education program which serves low income children and families. Prior to that I worked in the victim advocacy field.

I volunteer a lot in my community - focusing on issues that directly affect children and families. I enjoy hiking, working in my yard, singing in church choir (we just did Faure's Requiem for Good Friday), reading, writing, making music (jill of many instruments) -

I tend to have pretty passionate feelings and vehement thoughts about things that I care about and appreciate the "encouragement" to go a bit deeper.

Nice to meet you all -


Posted by Kamisaki (Member # 917) on :
Faure's Requiem, huh?
I just performed that piece in concert with the University choir I sing in. Great stuff. I haven't done much else of the old stuff in Latin, but Faure sure knew how to write harmonies.
Posted by nemes_ie (Member # 804) on :
30, Irish, living in Cork in Ireland (currently- should be living in Australia in 6-7 months!) Single, attached. No particular political views, the nearest thing would be a right-anarchist. Tend to vote Green, but that's in the political climate over here, which is different to the US, as far as I can tell.

Favourite authors are OSC and Dan Simmons at the moment. Also a big fan of Robert Anton Wilson, although losing interest slowly.

Work as a Civil Engineer for local government area. Terribly tedious, but a state job for life (inefficient and bureaucratic, but if there's a state job available, I want one!).

Interested in science, physics, philosophy and buddhism at the moment, althoug these tend to change as I read up on a subject and move on...



Posted by SwampJedi (Member # 915) on :
I'm Jeremy, a (soon to be) senior at Emory University. Emory is also know as the Anti-Intellectual Liberal HQ of the South. I'm conservative and Christian (though not Mormon), so I feel like I'm a spy in enemy territory. I'm majoring in Computer Science and Sociology, with a minor in Mathematics.

I've been reading here for over a year, ever since I finished OSC's Ender books. I post very rarely, as I don't want to jump into a debate until I have a strong position.

I have had my opinion changed by some of the things that I have read here. I was anti-war, but I have seen the light . Furthermore, my views on taxation (which were liberal) are now more in line with what jm0397 had to say. In other words, my ideas are not immutable.

I tend to vote Republican, but that isn't set in stone.

I like to read.. voraciously. Right now, I enjoy Science Fiction, social commentary, and philosophy (which is why the Ender books appealed to me).

Posted by Colin JM0397 (Member # 916) on :
*evil laugh*
One minion down, 10 million to go for world domination!

I will start by outlawing light beer and mullets - not retroactive, of course, or I'll have to destroy all my high school pictures.

Posted by Baldar (Member # 669) on :
Who is Craig Biggo?
Posted by msquared (Member # 113) on :
I am not a big baseball fan and I think the name is spelled wrong but I think he is a baseball player and used to play for Houston.


Posted by Baldar (Member # 669) on :
Thank you. As far as Houston is concerned, my son now has my Earl Campbell poster.
Posted by Zyne (Member # 117) on :
Zyne: Female, 29, Houston (inner-looper 'cause, you know, outside the loop ain't Houston its Someplace Else), left-libertarian, tend to vote green or dem if there's no reasonable libertarian around, informally married (formal marriage next fall), no kids (yet), 2 cats, 2 dogs, used to have a bird but cat 2 got it, five colleges in three states = three degrees (and I'm coveting a 4th), musician in former life, writer or errant professor in next life, let's call it financial-type planner in this life, atheist, blonde, Bulgakov is writer de jure, coolest place I've ever lived = Bend, Oregon, uncoolest place I've ever lived = Looserville, Texas, my real name is classified, coolest job I've ever had = this one, suckiest job I've ever had = packaging freakin' granola in a 110 degree warehouse with no ventilation until the end of time (felt like that), I love a good Shiraz and mostly like cheap wine, too, I think that Minute Maid park sounds stoopid but it rocks anyway.
Posted by Gorgon_Head on :
I am a 38 year old attorney living in Redding, California. I attended Sacramento State for my BA and went to UW Law. I work mainly with federal copyright and California tort law.

I am married and have 2 children, both are in high school. I love to hunt and fish, and I love to get some of my catches done up and hung on my wall. I have to say Moose hunting in the Tanana Valley of Alaska is my favorite.

For political leanings I lean somewhat liberal on social issues(I know it conflicts with my job somewhat) and tend to be fiscally conservative.

I try to have accurate spelling, and as my wife used to be an English teacher before she became a pharmacist I hope I do alright.

Posted by MooseGirl (Member # 946) on :
Female, 33 years old, Earth.

Hobbies: being a pain in the groin, traveling (favs: Scotland & Canada), music, writing, enjoying a good time with my friends&family, learning new languages (speaking them is a very different matter), developing concepts, organizing things

Job: public servant

Motto: "For, 'unheard of' means only it's undreamt of yet, 'impossible' means not yet done." (Julia Ecklar, "Ladyhawk")

(who's back at work but still without home PC... catching up on the threads I missed.)


Posted by TinMan (Member # 960) on :
34 year-old SWM Texan. First career and degree: Architect. Failed =/ Second career and degree: Computer Science. Stalled, moving towards failure. Third career? unknown =)

Political and religeous leanings: All over the place. Mostly Republicans, because they at least HAVE a sense of morality, even though mostly misguided. I'd call myself a Buddhist, since the teachings and general philosophy I almost wholeheartedly agree with, but that would be like the smoking drinker who goes to tittie bars far more often than Church calling himself a Christian. I agree with the philosophy, but it's too damn hard to practice it all=).

Growing up. I can officially count myself as poor white trash. I spent at least part of my childhood growing up in a Texas trailer park with my dad. Retired AF Vietnam Vet. Parents divorced when I was 3. Mom did the best she could with what she knew and where we were. The rest of my family is mostly a similar mess, with a few sucess stories smattered in between.

The one thing I have found is that I do seem to have a rather unusual perspective on life. I like to feel it comes from my ability to analyze all sides of an issue. I like to feel that way, so please don't disabuse me of that notion =)

Favorite authors: Sorry OSC, but Asimov is still my #1. You'll almost always certainly be #2 though =)

Tod Tinlin
Software Engineer

Posted by AnotherSeeker (Member # 951) on :
Faure did write some incredible harmonies, to be sure, Kamasaki. We received a lot of good feedback from folks, which was nice. But mostly it was just fun to sing in choir again. I'd taken a three year break.

Back in my earlier university days we performed Mozart's Requiem with the Buffalo Philharmonic and THAT was intense.

Latin seems to aid the tonal quality of vocalists (when pronounced correctly) - a much more full sound.

Posted by Denelian (Member # 531) on :


and he's a gorgon (which means he;s really a megorgon, if you play D&D...)

is it already 95 there??? (its like 55 here

Posted by Gorgon_Head on :
It's actually about 48 degrees here. Kind of chilly. You're from Redding?
Posted by Denelian (Member # 531) on :
yepyepyep - i even sent you an email about it

i went to Enterprise HS and all <G>

Posted by Redskullvw (Member # 188) on :
Posted by twinky (Member # 59) on :
Never did properly introduce myself, since I mostly lurk.

22-year-old chemical engineering student. Canadian. Going to school in Ontario, but originally from Nova Scotia. Enrolled in a co-op program that alternates four month school terms with four month work terms; I'm currently working for an oil company.

I love reading and music, and I love writing both prose and music. I also enjoy a variety of sports and games, as well as karate...
Posted by maniacal_engineer (Member # 116) on :
I thought I had a low member number, almost as low as Ev's, but 59 is really low - they are assigned sequentially right?
Posted by Slash the Berzerker (Member # 33) on :
Ha. You're not cool until your member number is close to the freezing temperature of water.

Did anyone else blow beverages out their nose when reading "Gorgon Head's" profile? Hahahaha... a lawyer from redding indeed. When will our silly little Kevin learn...

I, on the other hand, am a Lizardman Barbarian in exile.

Posted by twinky (Member # 59) on :
Er... never?
Posted by talon (Member # 1068) on :
Hey this is talon
I'm a pretty unusual guy. I'm extremely liberal, except on the Israel/Palestine issue, where I am a moderate. I am an exceptionally avid birder and conservationist. I am a Unitarian and a Hindu. But I am NOT a hippie. I am a hip-hopper. I cannot stand the current US regime (cough) uh... administration. I am 14, but am not fed my political views.
Posted by ssci (Member # 1053) on :
Interesting thread, I think it should be tapped often enough to stay current. It’s enlightening to see who I am talking to.

For what it’s worth, I am a 45 year old ex-Marine, now with 16 years of IT behind me. I pay a lot of taxes.

I am uni-lingual (what a waste of opportunity).

I have 3 daughters, ages 23, 10, and 5. I have a wonderful wife who could have written some of the Mensa tests (her I.Q. is freakin’ off the scales). She is also a good carpenter and great with sheetrock/wallpaper/paint, but there are some areas where she lacks common sense.

I often dangle participles.

Until recently I worked long, long hours as an overpaid independent consultant (hence the taxes). Lately I have been redefining success and other things in life are starting to appear more important than cash flow; I traded the Lexus SC400 for a Jeep Wrangler and spend more time with the girls (apologies to the oldest, she didn’t have much of a daddy).

I am not political but I am practical. I support elected officials whose selfish individual agendas are the least damaging to my family and way of life.

My handle (ssci) is simply the initials of my company (Sunburst Software and Consulting, Inc.)(I know it’s a goofy name, but it was an inside joke).

This is the first time I have participated in this type of forum. I find it fascinating and am especially interested in the viewpoints of the members outside of the U.S. We are actively shrinking the world.
Posted by maniacal_engineer (Member # 116) on :
actually my member number is very close to the boiling point of methane (in kelvin), and M^2's is close to the boiling point of N2 (in Rankine) I would say that is pretty cool too, but I did the sneaky absolute temperature scale thing. gotta watch those thermodynamicists - theyre a sneaky bunch!
Posted by fotwennytime (Member # 1037) on :
26, m, oh.
im a crazy anti social hermit that talks to himself, and answers. aside from that my interests are factory labor, and anything that fits in the narrow range of making me think without hurting my brain. oh yeah i like capitalism too. and cartoons, and tree's, tree's are good. good for climbing, good for breathing, good for shade, and building,and burning, oh yeah birds live in em too. dont burn tree's that have birds in em. oh yeah and im fond of rambling.
Posted by jm0397 (Member # 916) on :
Shameless self-promotion:
SSCI, you ever need some tech writing support, give me a holler.
As is painfully obvious from the ridiculous number of posts, they don't keep me too busy at my regular job.
Posted by Papa Moose (Member # 1069) on :
Howdy. I hadn't planned on posting anything, really, and only registered because it's easier to update new posts when one is logged in, but OrneryMod's e-mailed welcome was so nice that I thought I should introduce myself. Those of you who also use Hatrack know me. For those who don't, name's Michael, live in SoCal, between jobs, married with one two-year-old and one negative-five-month-old (approximately). I've been lurking here for the past year, and that's mostly what I'll continue to do. I lack the depth of knowledge most of you seem to have, which is why I prefer to lurk, but I appreciate the opportunity to soak up the raw info provided along with others' opinions and interpretations thereof, and compare it to my own thoughts, musings and deductions. I'm conservative on some issues, liberal on others, and many I don't know or don't care much one way or the other. Ok, that'll have to do it for now.

Posted by WmLambert (Member # 604) on :
Okay,Redskullvw, you've worn me down. I deign to post. I enjoy the camraderie of our fellow posters here at Ornery but usually try to avoid the hard-to-dispel self-serving braggadocio inherent in listing pedigree. Revealing innermost secrets, dysfunctions, and motivational traumas that color so much of our true backgrounds is also frightening. I finally decided that opening up somewhat could be a good thing - it all depends on the readers of the bios - and what they choose to do with the inside information. Some will probably take the cheap-shot route, but I figure that most of the members here are honorable people with good hearts and will assume the best of a person rather than the worst. (I also note that my older brother, Ron, posted in here earlier. He neglected to mention he is a published SF author, having several sales to Stanley Schmidt of Analog - and is also a qualified expert on religion, being able to decipher the Dead Sea Scrolls in their original Greek and whatever other languages they might be written in. He was the chief Editor and publisher for the Seventh Day Adventist Church, and the pre-editor of my own forthcoming book on the science of coaching soccer.)

I am a baby-boomer, born when my father came back from WWII after liberating some German Concentration Camps and fighting in the Battle of the Bulge. I remember the photos of the ovens and the open graves with thousands of emaciated bodies that were in his Army yearbook chronicling the carnage there. I've never given any credence to Holocaust revisionists. I also understood there were 1.4 Christians murdered along with each Jew killed by the Nazis. I grew up as TV was introduced, and before it was perceived as possible that a reporter or the media could lie or misconstrue facts to push an agenda.

I graduated from High School in 1967 after having lead a pro-active demonstration in my Senior Year during the first ever Teacher's strike. (Yes, my school started the whole thing. My French Teacher, Mr. Kowalczyk, was one of the instigators.) Our demonstration was to get the School Board to send some official to allow our football team to practice and get ready for the coming season - Our First game was against Cousino, and they were ranked as one of the best teams in the state of Michigan practicing WITH their coaches from the same school district as our school WITHOUT our coaches who were honoring the strike. I remember my picture on the front page of the newspaper explaining our position, while a sheriff deputy in the background was threatening to "fill my backside full of buckshot." We got the Athletic Director, Bob James to come open our locker room, and enable our insurance. The strike eventually ended. Our coaches returned just before the big game. And we won it.

I had been elected captain of the football team and president of the Senior class, so it seemed like my resonsibility to seek justice at the time. Partially on the basis of that event and a few other extracurricular activities and grade point average, I received a Regents grant to attend the University of Michigan during the buildup of the Vietnam War. UM wanted a proactive reputation and went out looking for student leaders willing to stir the pot. Every single kid in my preterm indoctrination group of over a hundred kids was both a student council or class president as well as captain of a major athletic team or award winner of some kind. It was a strange and overwhelming group of Type-A+ personalities. I saw the major protests of the sixties and seventies - the Kent State Massacre, the burning of the ROTC building in Ann Arbor, the march on the Pentagon. and all the other mind-altering events of the times. Most of the rabid agitators were outsiders and not from that proactive group of leaders that UofM brought together.

I majored in Advertising Design and minored in Philosophy and Logic. Since the Advertising Design program consisted of an undergrad AD team leader in charge of grad students from every college in the University - my counselor would approve any class I wanted to take sans required prerequisites. Did you know there are Econ classes taught by Nobel Laureates that are not taught until fifth & sixth year Econ students are so confused they need an overall class to explain how everything really works? As long as the profs didn't complain, I could take the classes. I was never driven by the need to do homework and get all A's. A minuses and B's were fine by me. The curriculum was never the end-all and be-all to me anyway, learning was - and there was so much I wanted to learn.

When I graduated, I became an Animation-Director/Producer for 17 years (Except for a short period when I went to the Criminal Justice Institute as the Senior Art Director making training tapes and videos, research, and educational programs for all areas of the Criminal Justice genré.) Then the Advertising Agency decided to get rid of our group - at the same time that all of the Detroit agencies divested themselves of most Art Directors older than 40 who made more than $40K. Hard times in the industry. I worked at Kmart headquarters as a Creative Designer until being hired as Creative Director for a job shop doing creative work for GM and other clients. They were closed by the IRS and I ended up at DCX under contract from an Advanced Technical Training group making computer graphics.

My life is my family - and my wife and I brought up three great boys. Electrician, Building Construction Manager, and Automotive Design Engineer. They are all married now, and we have two little grandkids so far. Growing up, the boys were good students and athletic. One was all-state in both Soccer and Track, and all were captains and stars of their respective teams. One won the National SAE drafting competition. I coached them as they grew up, and was convinced to take over the High School soccer team as head coach. My wife and I were both volunteers of the year for our local school district (My wife won twice.)

I grew up while the Republicans were fighting to create the Civil Rights Movement inspite of resistance from the Democrats, and have watched as the years passed and the Democrats tried to rewrite history and claim civil rights was their doing, and the GOP who were bigots instead of the other way around. I saw politics as it happened. Ann-Margaret will always be my hero - and not Barbarella. I saw the honor and brilliance of people like Senator Philip A. Hart and Reagan, and the ineptitude of people like Johnson and Carter.

I enjoy the give and take from those in this forum, and appreciate the many good insights most bring to the table here. I forgive most of the short-sightedness of the younger members who don't know how much they have yet to learn - and am in awe of the great researching skills of LetterRip, Redskullvw, and Kentuckian. That you all for reminding me that there is still a great deal more to learn.

Edited by OrneryMod with Williams persmission.

[ June 08, 2003, 09:55 PM: Message edited by: OrneryMod ]
Posted by Kate Emily (Member # 1057) on :
Hi. I am 28, Polish, temporarily in the US (university internship ending in January). Which was for me quite an unexpected turn in life, by the way. My education roughly translates to MA in history/archival science, though it’s not precise. My work here has more to do with literature than history.

Politically, I’m sort of agnostic, allergic to the left and disappointed with the right. In general, I have more doubts than opinions. I am a eurosceptic (British spelling intended) even though, basically, I’m for joining EU. It’s weird to watch Poland trying to find her way between EU and US, West and East – from America… I have similar experience on the personal level too, living here with Europeans – mostly – and working with Americans. I have mixed feelings about death penalty and don’t participate in discussions about abortion. Pinned down I’ll admit I’m pro-life. I sympathize with minorities of various kind but can’t stand political correctness.

I know a thing or two about history and culture, in topics related to science or economy I am out of my depth.


From Witold Gombrowicz – a writer who’s my endless inspiration:

“I am not so mad as to have any views these days, or not to have them.”

I strongly believe that you will like this quote, or you will not.
Posted by OrneryMod (Member # 977) on :
Never thought I would have to step into this thread, but hear goes.

Let leave this thread for what it was intended, or I will delete the posts that are causing the problems.

I have slightly edited Williams post, with his persmission, and removed the replys to it. Hopefully this thread will stay on track.


[ June 08, 2003, 10:08 PM: Message edited by: OrneryMod ]
Posted by msquared (Member # 113) on :
Just a bump as we have several new members.

Posted by potemkyn (Member # 1040) on :
Just curious OrneryM,

Is Gorgon gone? He isn't registered any more and his name isn't in bold? Is this part of your "clearing the deadwood"?
Posted by the_black_angel (Member # 1134) on :
Hey Im a 18 year old student living in Perth Western Australia.

I am basicly left of the centre politicaly but that changes on the mood i am in at the time same as everyone else.

I am currently studying for my CCNA (Cisco Certified Network Associate), My plans for the next couple of years is to work and hopefully travel and see the world.

I am a complete techno addict anything technical i love, especially in the eletronics and IT world. I love Apple computers and will fight for them to the death. I inherently hate microsoft and what they stand for.

I am a firm believer that there is always more to an argument and do believe that people are more influenced by TV and Radio than the believe ( I watch very little TV and listen to the radio only now and then)

I like all good music regardless to the genre it belongs to. I also hate censoreship.
Posted by Kisanth88 (Member # 1127) on :


24 Year old Network Engineer from rural PA. Living in NJ currently (pitty me).

Generally regarded as liberal by my conservative friends but I consider myself to be a leftish moderate.

Not a fan of big government or big corporations.

Anti-organized religion, believe what you want, but when you organize a religion it can be used to leverage people like the mafia.

Two time college drop-out /bow

Feel free to PM me about anything.

Let me know if you think I'm making no sense [Smile]

Posted by msquared (Member # 113) on :
Bump for the new people.

Posted by Dom Peralt (Member # 14) on :
My how time flies... it's been almost 2 years since I made my first post in this thread. And now I'm no longer in MA and no longer a "big-L" libertarian. (Small l, still, though.)
Posted by Quatre86 (Member # 734) on :
I'm one of the few high schoolers out there... I can hear my credibility flying out the window. I live in Chappaqua, NY (the place where the Clintons sleep when they aren't in more important places). I'm seventeen, meaning I'll be a senior.

Politically, I'm not sure where I lie. I mainly just like to argue with people, and since everyone in my town is a liberal, I end up taking the Devil's Advocate approach and going conservative. I try to form opinions independent of a single guiding ideology, so I have some conservative and some liberal viewpoints. So I guess I'm an Independent.

I got led hear by the Philotic Web forum and thought OSC had some interesting opinions. Never really posted until recently... had a bit of a confrontation, but it's better than being ignored.
Posted by msquared (Member # 113) on :
Welcome to the site.

And that was no confrontation. You have not seen confrontation yet. [Smile]

Posted by raingirl (Member # 1160) on :
Dom Peralt :

Dont' take it so hard....
it is the mind that keeps you young and the debate that keeps you spirited!

(OK- I probley stole it off of a quote somewhere....and wait until you look back and see 20 years online here! Talk about interesting...I wonder who much it will come back to haunt us!?! [Wink] )
Posted by Dom Peralt (Member # 14) on :

Wow, 20 years'd be something, wouldn't it? And I just realized that I should have major bragging rights for being #14...
Posted by Adam Masterman (Member # 1142) on :
Hi All,
Pretty new here, but not hesitant to post, as some of you must have gathered.

As for my "stats", I am 25, single, live in western Maine, and am a schoolteacher. Don't like political labels, so here are some of my opinions as of the moment:

Bush: bad president

Clinton: good president, bad person

FDR: best president

environmentalism: good

gun control:necessary

racism: still exists (and not against white guys)

abortion: not going there!

Personally, I am a somewhat intoverted intellectual, majored in fine arts, minored in Tibetan (huh?), I am a practicing buddhist, looking forward to going back to Tibet as soon as the dragon is slain or lulled to sleep. Till then, I occupy my time training for cross-country skiing (again, huh?) and looking for people online who like to argue. You all are the best I have found.
Posted by Zyne (Member # 117) on :
FIJC is a grrl? Woohoo! *sekrut handshake*
Posted by Zyne (Member # 117) on :
Aye, grrl (we are few), but nay, college (y'all are many).
Posted by msquared (Member # 113) on :
We have several females who post here. Zyne, FIJC, Denalian and Luny are sisters(but they have not posted in a while, moosegirl, liz and Ender Wiggin.

Ender Wiggin is in the Canadian Army and has not posted in a while but she drops in every now and then.

Posted by Twelve (Member # 1173) on :
Twelve here, reporting in. Picked the name twelve because it sounds interesting, pure and simple. I've read this site off and on, and should I ever decide to post, I'm registered now. I'm still in my teens, but far more informed than most of my generation (as I actually read the news and what not). Formerly semi-democratic, I now consider myself largely libertarian, though I side with democrats rather than republicans in the clinch. I try to live by the principle of "Live and let live."

Enjoy science fiction, fantasy, alternate history, some small bits of other fiction, and assorted nonfiction. Enjoy performing and listening to many types of music (emphatically dislike most pop, most country, and most rap). Enjoy role-playing games, and enjoy studying and thinking about the world around us. Enjoy the company of canines. Like to read informed analysis, hate to read blind ranting and dogmatic preaching.

Posted by raucous (Member # 1091) on :
Better late than never right?
So my name is Jonas (please don't sing Weezer to me) and I'm 23. I'm originally from North Louisiana, lived in Colorado, joined the Army spent 2 years in Germany, and finished up in Kansas which is where I'm at now. So I guess I'm essentially a coonass/mountainman/kraut/wheatfarmer all rolled into one. Getting ready to start at Kansas State with a dual major in Sociology and International Studies (specializing in Russia and Eastern Europe.) I'm a Taoist and try to live as such no matter how hard it is in this day and age. Politically I'm issue person and not a party person (far right on some far left on others). I'm a registered libertarian and a member of Negative Population Growth. I'm generally pretty jaded and caustic in my views and I'm a big fan of quotes (especially jaded and caustic ones.) I like to think that I'm pseudo-decent as far as spelling and grammer, but not to worried about it. Hey, I'm here to have fun not be graded. [Cool]
Posted by Everard (Member # 104) on :
You didn't know?

We grade all posts for punctuation and spelling.

I fail constantly [Smile]
Posted by raingirl (Member # 1160) on :
Then you will have to move over and let me in sit with you Ev!
[Big Grin]

Hello everyone-
(I liked Adam's format so I am going to copy it)

Female Carbon-based Life Form
Physically age 35
Mentally aprox 9
Spiritually about 3000
Not shy (in case you haven't noticed)
Raised an Oil Brat (Great Irony of my life) Mainly SE Asia (parents still there & Great Friends all over the planet)
Small Business Owner so I am always torn about Governmental involvment
Suckled on information from papers like International Herald Tribune; World Press Review and didn’t have TV until 13.

And live by one thing:

Everyday I have fresh running water I am already richer than 80% of this planet, and everything else in my life is gravy...
Posted by suntranafs (Member # 723) on :
I'm fat and ugly and 90 years old and on drugs and I like run-on sentences a lot and a lot.
Posted by msquared (Member # 113) on :
Bump for new members who feel like posting or getting more info on some of the older members.

Posted by Everard (Member # 104) on :
We've lost some good members, looking back over this thread... I hope they are still around, and come back at some point.
Posted by youngangry (Member # 1206) on :
I am who I am and that is all I want to say at this time. Personal information is NOT, in my mind, for Internet consumption. Ideas information, and discussions are essentially its uses.

What you will get know about me from my discussions is that I am Conservative, religious (although not sure how much that will show here), and very cynical.

Well, I do want to say: Hello.

[ August 27, 2003, 04:28 PM: Message edited by: youngangry ]
Posted by Ben (Member # 1153) on :
Well, my handle here IS my name, its a bit straightforward, since I already have quite a plenthora of other handles and nicknames from elsewhere. I'm 26, just celebrated my 2nd anniversary with my wife and having just graduated from college, am looking for work. Sucky job market [Frown] Hope to have something soon.

I found this site via my love of sci-fi and fantasy, leading to OSC then to here. I am interested in politics and vote, though I'm frustrated with partisian squabbling and low standards of political conduct (both sides) ie election stealing, negative campaigns, various alleged misdeeds and improprieties as well as hypocrisy. I do realize we're human and am willing to forgive a few mistakes if they're admitted to and responsiblity accepted.

Hmm anything else? I mingle with a lot of different people, though I'm generally an anomaly in any group I'm part of. I really am just interested in learning about everything and admit to lurking here for a long while! [Cool] [Big Grin] Oh, and I've been living in the Los Angeles area for a few years, though I've also been in DC, Baltimore, Frederick, Houston, Wichita, and the SLC area at various times in growing up.
Posted by drewmie (Member # 1179) on :
I'm Andrew Davies. Since I just got "published" on this site, I figured I should introduce myself. I grew up in Springfield, Illinois, and currently live in Orem, Utah. I'm 31, married, and have two daughters, ages 4 and 1.5. My schooling is in political science, philosophy, and accounting. I'm an active member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, or Mormons.

I'm one of the political "Lonely Middle" as I call us, referring to those of us who are unconcerned with whether an issue is left or right. Rather, I simply want to take all the information available and make the best rational decision. So though I have strong opinions, I'm always searching for new "data" from which to make a more informed decision. Unfortunately, it has been my experience that most people seem to take a position and find any reasons to justify it, to the exclusion of other competing facts.

Since I live in Utah, most "liberal" organizations and politicians here are moderately conservative from a national point of view. I am a member of MESJ (Mormons for Equality and Social Justice), a progressive organization for LDS people. You can see our mission statement and resolutions at , and you can also join the MESJ Forum .
Posted by potemkyn (Member # 1040) on :
I am who I am and that is all I want to say at this time. Personal information is NOT, in my mind, for Internet consumption. Ideas information, and discussions are essentially its uses.

What you will get know about me from my discussions is that I am Conservative, religious (although not sure how much that will show here), and very cynical.

Well, I do want to say: Hello.

Quality intro...
Posted by akatzen (Member # 970) on :
Well, this is me. Blah. I tend to lurk more than post, mostly because I'm not a big fan of arguing, and partly because I don't have the time to do enough research to back up what I say with fact.
But I do enjoy reading everybody else immensely.

Anyway. I'm 24... very nearly 25 (yep, a Virgo), male, from Southern California. I was one of those underprivileged children you read about, but lucky as hell. Went to a private high school, worked like a dog to pay the tuition.
Special thanks to FASFA for the college education... Got a degree in theatre technology, emphasis in scenic design.

I enjoy writing quite a bit, but it's only my poetry and plays that have gone anywhere.

I first came here because of Mr. Card (duh). Read Ender's Game when I was 13, and have reread it about 30 more times since. When I can afford it, I buy his other books, and have made it through most of em.
I found this site because of, where a few years ago I posted on the Virtual Battle School pretty regularly.

As for politics, I don't have a political party. Some friends have said I'm more liberal than liberal, if that gives you any idea. (As if my posts weren't clear enough)

Religion: Don't have that either. I'm ordained in the Universal Life Church, and every couple months post a cyber-sermon on my Blog, where I encourage spiritual growth without the burden of dogmatic law. The rest of my blog is a bunch of stories and cynicism...

Er, that's about it, I guess. I read a lot, and while I'm not a huge fan of Salvatore, I'm still not gonna list my favorites for your dissembling.
Posted by LetterRip (Member # 310) on :
Since we have recently acquired a number of new members, I thought I'd give the introduction thread a bump.

Posted by Adam Masterman (Member # 1142) on :
Hey, To anyone new to this site who managed to slog through this seven page thread, I'm Adam (possibly the only poster here who isn't anonymous, not that there's anything wrong eith that), I wrote the Tibet essay which is still up at present, and currently I teach elementary school in New England. My favorite Beatle was George, and my turn-ons include chocolate cake and the little smile Secretary Rumsfeld makes at press conferences to disguise the fact that what he really wants to do is lunge at the reporter who made him look stupid and beat him senseless.
Posted by OrneryMod (Member # 977) on :
Actually there are at least two other members who have essays published who post.

Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 99) on :
And you're certainly not the only one who's not "anonymous." [Smile]
Posted by kelcimer (Member # 1221) on :
23. I am an artist, actor, writer, and graphic designer. Though I have yet to be paid for doing any of these things I try not to let it discourage me.

Formerly of NJ and been resident of VA for the past 8 years.

It was noted recently of me that "for a cynic you're awfully damn optimistic" if that tells you anything.

I was just looking for OSC information when I found ornery. That was a while back. Been lurking since then.

OSC is 2nd favorite author. Terry Pratchet is #1.
R.A. Salvatore was my least favorite writer until Chuck Austen started writing for Marvel recently.

Life is too serious to be taken seriously.

I think some thanks should go out to LetterRip and msquared for bumping this one the most.
Posted by Murdok (Member # 1225) on :
I'm a 46 year old art director who helped design the game Myst. I work in Burbank, CA for a Sony funded start-up and we are working on a launch title for the next generation Playstation.

My background includes working for the National Geographic Society, numerous newspapers and game companies. I'm an avid traditional artist and love computer graphics.

I love off roading and have a Jeep and use it to explore the vast open ranges, mountains and deserts of the west. I love geo activity where you use a GPS device to find caches left in some really obscure places in the middle of nowhere. It's a hoot.

I bycyle and hike and love outdoor photography.

I am a progressive and very liberal in my leanings. I find George Bush to be a little more than a lucky fool manipulated by more powerful elements of the conservative movement into running for office.

I feel religion is basically a hold over from a more primitive state of human nature - for people who need something greater than themselves to believe in and act rationally and morally.

I first was exposed to Scott Card when I heard one of his lectures on evolution when he was doing this act as a Secular Humanist Preacher who preached that the first law of secular humanism was that you should think. He was the reason I found evolution to be the best picture of our origins contrary to the many whacko creationists who wanted to place religion into our schools. He is inspiring when talking about science.

Well that's me in a nutshell - I think this place will be fun to contribute ideas and commentary. Good meeting you all.

Chuck Carter
Posted by Adam Masterman (Member # 1142) on :
Touche, Tom. [Smile]
Posted by msquared (Member # 113) on :
We also have Ken Bean.

Posted by Everard (Member # 104) on :
And I'm not anonymous if you bother to look over at hatrack or at my email address [Smile]
Posted by raingirl (Member # 1160) on :
an anonymous anomaly on ornery??? [Eek!]
Posted by Shartae (Member # 1256) on :
Well... so far I can easily guess i'm the newest member here!

Im almost afraid to introduce myself because I looked at most of the pages here and most everyone is so much older than me.

Then again watching "Pretty Woman" makes me feel just a bit better [Smile]

My name is Brandy P. and lets just say im prolly the youngest here.

Im 17 years, and I turn 18 in March. Im a senior in highschool. And im about to get blown away by a hurricane... *nails her feet to the floor*

Im hoping for a profession as an anime creator...

And maybe here I can catch up with the news x.x;;
Posted by Serotonin'sGone (Member # 1219) on :
Guess I'll add my bit.

I'm a 22 year old working on my PhD in electrical engineering at the University of Texas (scary, scary state. I think they've forgotten about the other 49 states here.). Sounds about as exciting as it actually is--I'm currently looking for a way out (I think biomed is the way to go, maybe nanotechnology. Something that isn't so drearily boring...).

and, as you might have been able to tell--i love parenthesis.

Most of my political ideas are pretty immature, so I'll largely keep quiet. When i do pipe up, i will be irreverent, irascible and incendiary. Hopefully I won't relegate myself into the lands of "so and so has posted, best just scroll down..."

[ September 26, 2003, 01:50 PM: Message edited by: Serotonin'sGone ]
Posted by Puretext (Member # 823) on :
Myst was an absolutely awesome game. One of these days I'm going to track down the 16 (or was it 32) bit version and play it all over again...

As for your religious opinion, Murdock, you're obviously wrong, and as TomDavidson will be sure to inform you [Wink] , the reason you haven't found God is because you haven't searched hard enough...
Posted by Tim McGaha (Member # 1215) on :
Hello, all! I posted in the Universities thread a few days back, and just found this one ... so here goes:

I'm 36, married, one daughter. I'm an adjunct faculty member at an engineering school in the Dallas/Fort Worth area of Texas. I'm wrapping up a Ph.D. in Aerospace Engineering, and will be fishing about for a full-time faculty appointment in the near future.

I'm a student pilot, and a Presbyterian. As far as politics go, I used to call myself a Jeffersonian minimalist. I'm not quite a Libertarian, but I tend to have libertarian leanings. [Smile]

That's about all I've got time for just right now ... Back to lurking!
Posted by Everard (Member # 104) on :
Posted by musket (Member # 552) on :
Well I suppose I should do my shtick too, since I've been doing more posting than lurking lately--

I'm fifty-four, male, live in sin in semi-rural NH with a wonderful woman a few years younger than I am, and I'm a full time freelance artist of the type usually called a bird carver, though I prefer to think of myself as a sculptor who happens to like birds as subjects. My primary interest is in raptors, which I've been studying since I was nine years old, and exotic tropical species, especially hummingbirds, which I combine in certain of my pieces with semi-precious gem materials-- I'm also a lapidary.

I spent the years between roughly 1972-86 as a full time professional guitar maker and repairman (I still do repairs to supplement my income, such as it is). I've managed or worked in several guitar shops of the kind that are currently going extinct in the face of competition from cut-throat discount catalogs and souless chain stores. I've worked in guitar factories, including C.F. Martin & Co way back in 1969. I play too, mostly da blooz, or my version of it anyway, and pretty well... actually, much more than pretty well, though for some reason I have a hard time admitting just how good I am.

I'm a completely lapsed Jew and have been since I first read Voltaire at the age of fourteen (my parents can best be described as secular humanists who went through the motions when their Orthodox parents were around and stopped doing so the minute they were gone). I think the greatest contribution my ancestors have made to world culture in general is Yiddish, and I wish I knew how to speak it.

I can't quite call myself an atheist, because it really is impossible to disprove the existence of a deity, but I'm as agnostic as it gets. I'm attracted to Zen, but like Huineng, the 6th Patriarch of Chinese Zen, I have an aversion to zazen (seated meditation) and all other things associated with the formalities of mainstream Zen Buddhism.

I was admitted to and for awhile attended a very prestigious art school in NYC, but found it stifling and dull (especially compared to what was going on in the neighboring streets in the fall of 1967), and hence droppped out to pursue learning how to build guitars-- at the time, you could count the number of guitarmakers (I don't like the now popular word "luthier") in the US on your fingers and toes. Sometimes I regret not sticking it out and getting a degree, but most of the time I don't.

Politically I'm more or less liberal, but only up to a point... I dislike extremists on either side of the spectrum and have as little truck with the bowdlerization of the liberal language police as I do with conservatives nutboxes who seem to think they can remake the world into a rerun of "Father Knows Best." Meshuggahs all, and mishegoss all of it.

I no longer exercise as much as I should, but
used to be accomplished in the Wing Chun system of Chinese boxing, and can still punch the daylights out of your nose six times in six seconds from six inches away (so far, the occasion to use this skill has thankfully never arisen). I like to read and I like to think. I like to make beautiful things, though I'm lacking in discipline and tolerance for the grunt work that inevitably accompanies doing so. I don't watch television.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 99) on :
Why six inches, exactly? Is that just how long your arms are, or is it some mystical Chinese thing?
Posted by musket (Member # 552) on :
Six inches was an approximation. One of the central tenets of Wing Chun is "short power," that is, the ability to generate considerable force over a very short distance. It's an entirely practical system, no hocus-pocus in it at all. One maxim of the style is simply that the shortest distance between two points is a straight line... which should be obvious, but is ignored in many other systems due to an emphasis on the mystical qualities of circular movement.

When you see a Wing Chun practitioner in a guard position, you will never see his or her (this is the only "classical" Chinese martial art invented by a woman) holding the fists tucked up alongside the rib cage, as you do with karatekas, Tae Kwon Do folks, and most other Chinese system stylists. The hands will be out in front, where they belong in a real fight.

Bruce Lee, who originally trained in Wing Chun under the legendary Hong Kong streetfighter Wong Shun Leung, developed this technique to the ultimate and was reputed to be able to drop a hefty opponent from a distance of one to three inches. Given that the man definitely could break half a dozen boards hung from a ceiling and separated by several inches (much, much more difficult than breaking a stack of them one on top of the other), it might even be true.

I should add to this that the system, according to the best research into its history, was apparently developed for fighting in extremely close quarters and possibly on boats (it comes from the Fujian-Amoy coastal area). It isn't a perfect system-- it lacks grappling techniques and that's a major lack in my opinion-- but for the average person who wants to learn efficient basic self defense in a short period of time, it's probably still the best of the classical Chinese styles.

[ October 02, 2003, 04:29 PM: Message edited by: musket ]
Posted by WarrsawPact (Member # 1275) on :
Time to resurrect this one. We keep getting new people for short periods of time...
Posted by kelcimer (Member # 1221) on :
Bump, for people like Carter-LibDem and because some things need bumping even if it'll get them more posts then "Does God have Feet?" (Speaking of which, Warssaw needs to get his priests answer!) [Big Grin]
Posted by Gary (Member # 1365) on :
I'm 37 years old and live in Austin, TX. Married 15 years but it only feels like 14 years and 9 months. I have 2 boys, ages 10 and 13. I have degrees in chemistry and computer science.

My current hobby is making sure my employer does not catch me posting to this forum during working hours.
Posted by simplybiological (Member # 1344) on :
we (serotonin's gone and I) live in austin too... weird. we're both grad students at UT.

i'm in ecology, evolution, and undergrad degree was a BS in zoology, minor in latin/classics.
Being a grad student takes up a lot of my time, and the rest of it is spent watching trash on TV, sporadically going to the gym, and hanging out with other grad students at a bar. i also spend a fair amount of time harrassing serotonin about when he's going to be done with his homework. i read excellent books and i make a mean mac n cheese.

politically i'm hard to define- my politics in an ideal world are much different than how i actually vote. i never ever argued about politics until i got on ornery. i still don't know why i'm here.

[ November 25, 2003, 10:36 AM: Message edited by: simplybiological ]
Posted by Koner (Member # 1390) on :
I have just recently began lurking around Ornery American. I found the site through Hatrack River. I have been a fanatical OSC fan for several years now and eagerly await every new title.

I'm a 33 year old single male living in the great white north of Michigans upper peninsula. I LOVE to down hill ski, scuba dive and hunt and fish. When I'm not doing any of those I'm either reading a new book or playing Everquest (yes I'm addicted).

I've spent the last 14 years of my life and will spend the next 6 at least in the United States Navy. I'm not exactly sure which view the "right" or "left" take but I know that they are typically polar opposites and that I don't usually agree with either end 100%. Thus, I always say that I'm middle of the road politically speaking. I do however tend to follow the republican way of thinking on most issues. Don't take that to mean that I am a republican though. I believe that EVERYONE should decide who is best for the job and vote their concious rather than vote because of a political party affiliation.

I believe whole heartedly in the Bill of Rights and the American way of life (and this is NOT in reference to the "me me me" philosophy that so many people think is the American way of life). In the grand scheme of things my life has little meaning but I offer it as sacrifice so that ALL people around the world may live with the freedoms that we here in America enjoy. I have been around the world several times and I truely believe that America, with all its faults, is without a doubt the greatest country on earth. I have vowed my live to ensure that it remains that way.

I'm stubborn and opinionated but I will listen to others opinions and reevaluate my own if they have a strong arguement with sound reasoning. Sometimes I have to be hit over the head with a board though before I change my opinions.

I guess thats me in a nutshell.
Posted by kelcimer (Member # 1221) on :
So expect some new traffic for a while.
More traffic?

Bump. Bump. Sqwee! [Big Grin]

[quote from the 'Andrew Sullivan links' thread.]

[ December 03, 2003, 05:39 PM: Message edited by: kelcimer ]
Posted by PaulSbird (Member # 1287) on :
Hello everybody!

I've been lurking for awhile now (mostly at work), so I have been wanting to introduce myself as I feel I've gotten to know many of you already!. My name is Paul and I've been a fan of OSC since one of my brother's turned me on to Enders game back in 86 or 87. What led me here was a link to an article about the RIAA and music swapping. Almost two years ago I met OSC at a Book signing and let him know that my brother gave me Enders' game, which in turn, led me to buying most of his following works.
I'm a Christian,political centrist, and right now I'm being sucked in by South Park and our 2 dachshunds. Hopefully I can start dabbling in the forums soon.
Have a good night
Posted by Konstantly M Kyurious (Member # 1418) on :
Hello one and all!

I’m androgynous, of an indeterminate age, and have absolutely no affiliation with any political, religious, or other special interest group. That being the case, I reserve the right to take any position on any topic at any time. This includes the option of willfully making assertions contrary [ornery] to previous statements in order to bring further elucidation to the discussion.

With that brash disclaimer out of the way, some semblance of reality can finally set in. I happened upon during a search for the word “stupid”; and when I discovered how seldom that word accurately described the content and interaction here – I began to lurk. After a while, I was no longer content being a passive bystander and registered. You’re reading my first post, located here because I was taught that it’s polite to at least introduce yourself before butting into someone else’s conversation. So please allow me to provide some more pertinent data.

I’ve had many jobs in the private and public sectors, both military and civilian. Some of the more interesting include lumberjack, bartender, infectious disease research, and my current focus on computer security and forensics. I have no college diploma though I acquired enough credits for at least one (had they been more concentrated in time, place, and subject matter). It’s of little consequence - my experience has been that “formal education” almost always consists of a lot of “form” and very little education.

I read eclectically and voraciously, primarily SF&F because it literally, and literarily, has no limits. I love music, and have about 1000 LPs and CDs, lots of classic rock and blues but the rest is spread all over the genre map. I have a collection of sports cards and memorabilia I’m trying to unload; but still collect knives and southwestern Indian jewelry. I have been a serial collector of Mustangs, and currently have two in the stable. My girlfriend drives my ’88 GT and I cruise in my ’01 Cobra.

Politically I’m right of left and left of right, but tend to be closer to both extremes than in the middle. Don’t know or care what label applies – I don’t like labels. I was raised Christian fundamentalist, and examined other religions later – basically rejecting them all. I do posses some deep, personal, spiritual beliefs, but I won’t label them or belabor them. No proselytizing allowed. Philosophically, I will take the shortcut of using a label and state that I lean toward the relativist doctrine but find major problems in a strict interpretation of the theory.

Enough! I’m looking forward to being challenged and educated by you folks.


BTW, the nym resulted from one of those “formal education” courses. Herr Doktor Professor Dummkopf Vogelgehirn was raving about how the ancient Greeks were the only “great thinkers”. Of course, several of us made up “Greek” names and started speaking with atrocious Greek accents. Hadn’t thought about it in a while, but the topics often discussed on this site reminded me (in a positive way) of the nym.
Posted by simplybiological (Member # 1344) on :
i'm bumping this- there seem to be a few new folks posting. was the site linked to somewhere else, or is it just coincidence?
Posted by sruffelman (Member # 1325) on :
Well I got two people I know to sign up because I am on this site all the time and they wanted to know what was up.

MAcc and Player1Wins, are both personal friends of mine.
Posted by OrneryGuest (Member # 1251) on :
I'm a long time perennial lurker. I'm a fan of OSC's books, and thus happened upon this site -- even met him once at a booksigning, though I doubt I made an impression.

I've been visiting Ornery for a number of years now. But I tend to be sporadic, with long months of absence. I've only recently started posting.
Posted by kelcimer (Member # 1221) on :
We seem to have some new faces so this is getting bumped again. Say "Hi" everybody. [Big Grin]

edited to add: the fact that Warrsaw has something else to update in "Longest Threads" is purely coincidental. Really.

[ February 24, 2004, 01:40 AM: Message edited by: kelcimer ]
Posted by Ivan (Member # 1467) on :
Hi. I'm Matt Avery. I've lurked here for roughly a year before I started posting these past two monthes. I was originally drawn to this site because of the Ender books, which remain among my favorite. I'm an undergrad student at New College of Florida, which is a tiny public liberal arts school in Sarasota, FL. I'm working on my degree in economics. I'm quite glad to be here; despite recent events, this is by far the most rational, intelligent board I've ever posted on. Guess that's about it!

Posted by Unregistered (Member # 1274) on :
30 y.o.. Engaged. Graduated with honors in philosophy from the University of New Brunswick (Canada) a couple years back. I enjoy debating over social injustices (self perceived at times) but i really enjoy a good metaphysical debate. Consider myself a part time "post modern". Hoping to get my PhD someday and teach philosophy for a living. Some of my fav philosophic thinkers: Socrates, Plato, Hobbes, Hume, Kant, Heidegger, Nietzsche, Sartre and Foucault. Would have loved to learn more about Wittgenstein.

Try to be agnostic, though sometimes it is hard. My cyncism is very deep rooted into most thoughts i have.

Thoroughly enjoy reading OSC's books. At one point read 23 consecutive. Reading George R.R. Martin's series "A game of thrones" atm.

Tend to think socialist and liberal. Want people to be able to enjoy this wonderful planet we have. We only have one trip on this rock, no matter what your beliefs are, I wouldnt want to think someones shot at this reality wasted cause of dumb luck. Also beleive that to enjoy life, one has to realize what makes one happy, and that odds are, its not material possessions. Some of the greatest things i have ever experienced had little to do with the things i own, but more to do with the company and environment i was in.

Dont employ the 'grass is greener on the other side' mentality. I just try to keep my grass as nice as a i can.

Sorry to those of you that thought i wasted your time ... but i didnt force you to read this [Smile]
Posted by Tokyo (Member # 1277) on :
Well, why not. I have already been "outed" namewise when my blog came up. My name is Luis Poza, born & raised in the San Francisco Bay Area (grew up in Menlo Park, home of the USGS and SRI). I'm 39 and single and trying hard not to be. Got a B.A. in Japanese Language and an M.A. in English with a concentration in TESOL (Teaching English to Speakers of Other Languages) at SFSU. Worked my own way through college by alternately teaching English in Japan and coming back to S.F. to get the next higher degree.

I am currently a college professor, teaching credit-bearing academic-level (as opposed to ESL) courses in Writing and Reading, and also teach a survey course in Computer Science. I teach at a branch campus of an American university; the campus is located in central Tokyo, and is one of only three fully accredited American college branches in Japan (the other two are Temple and University of Illinois in Niigata). I used to be the Academic Coordinator (translation: a dean, without the Ph.D.), but stepped "up" to full-time teaching after five years because I got tired of working longer hours, and getting shorter vacations, for less money. Paid m'dues.

Am an agnostic with the faint beginnings of what I guess might be deism. Politically, am Liberal with Libertarian leanings. Bill Maher is a favorite commentator; my father is very kind enough to tape all the "Real Time" shows and mail them over every month or so. (Along with The Daily Show. Har!)

Favorite author is currently OSC; Ender's Game is still the favorite (when I first read it, I did so in about 24 hours, without sleeping), closely followed by Speaker for the Dead and Pastwatch. Other authors I enjoy include Neal Stephenson, and the old standards of Heinlein, Asimov and Clarke.

I run a blog called The Blog From Another Dimension (, which I intended as a friends-and-family thing, expecting maybe a dozen visitors a day at best, but which has snowballed into a rather larger audience of 350 unique visitors per day, and about 6000 per month (go figure). Google gets me about a third of that traffic, and, weirdly enough, a short, early-on post about eyelid twitching slowly turned my blog into the Eyelid Twitching Mecca of the Internet. Go ahead. Google it. You'll see. ('Eyelid twitching' in quotes--sometimes I'm #1, sometimes not, but always in the top ten.) Not exactly the noteriety I was looking for.... The blog is more about politics, some about Japan, and bits and pieces about lots of other things.

I also run a new political blog for Expats ( with another Japan-based American expat; we're looking for more contributors, so if you're an expat American, drop a comment and let us know.
Posted by Dan Pepper (Member # 1291) on :
Edited to add stuff and correct my age:
Hi, I'm 25, married, I work as a journalist for a weekly paper. I've lived my whole life in Michigan, beginning next door to an Ojibwa reservation in Baraga, a tiny town in the Upper Penisula. I grew up in a more intellectual than average middle-class home. I went to Michigan State University (how ya like that basketball game, U of M!!!) and now live in a old suburb part of Kalamazoo.
My parent's are from New Jersey and lower Michigan, and owned a vet clinic, my mother later became a teacher. Pepper is an anglcised german name. I've also got Irish blood. The Pepper family came to America (I'm told) in the late 19th century. My mother's ancestors are said to include an Irish deserter from the British Army during the American Revolution.
I'm a leftist secular humanist (raised Catholic) and I'm proud to be a Midwesterner. I don't really care about fast cars, I love comics (Daniel Clowes is the king), books (my favorite is Lonesome Dove by Larry McMurtry), movies and music (everything from Tupac to Beethoven to the Clash to Pantera) and I'm saving up to buy a canoe. I like English beer and I believe in freedom, democracy and social justice, in that order.
I was a crappy college student and I have a dog and cat. The cat is a badass, as he fights the dog every day, even without claws.

I've spent enough time reading history to bring up stuff like this:
Kenny Payne said:
, my father's side of the family is in Eastern Tennessee, near Chattanooga
If that's the case, the odds would be they weren't rebels. The confederate army had to occupy East Tennessee to keep it from going the way of West Virginia and seceding from secession.

[ February 26, 2004, 10:27 AM: Message edited by: Dan Pepper ]
Posted by LimestoneMiner (Member # 1518) on :
A cheery Good Morning.

My name is Amy Carlisle. To my mind, my most interesting attributes are the following (in order):

The only other factoid that you should know is that I’m a pre-op Male-to-Female transsexual. I’ve been on hormones for nearly five years, and hope to begin my Real Life Test in the near future.
It’s a pleasure to meet you all; thanks for making me feel welcome.
Posted by Emajekral (Member # 251) on :
Most of what there is to know about me is available somewhere on my webpage if you dig enough and click enough pictures.

I came here because I love reading, and OSC is one of my favorite authors. I stay not because I love politics or debate, but because Ornery is the first place I've been that made politics make any sense to me at all. If my posts are naive please understand that I nearly failed every course I took that had politics as a topic.

In spite of myself I am currently procrastinating my Master's Thesis in Computer Science (not Poly Sci, heaven forbid, that's my wife's area).

Publish a novel
Write a hit song
Take part in a best selling computer game's development
Perform for a crowd larger than 10,000 (and not get booed off stage)
Hear the words "Well done thou good and faithful servant."

Dreams I've reached:
Perform for a crowd larger than 5000 (and not get booed off stage)
Get a post secondary degree (Master's was never on the list, just fortune and a scholarship)
Make someone cry for joy
Record an album (three, albeit not solo: chamber music)
Get married (never thought I'd succeed)
Have kids (depended on the one above)
Serve an honourable mission

Edited for spelling.

[ February 27, 2004, 12:17 AM: Message edited by: Emajekral ]
Posted by tbl (Member # 1524) on :
I am a 20 yr old Male. I live in Carlsbad, CA. I design CNC systems, and develop software (Realtime Linux) to run them.

Hobbies I enjoy are fast cars, autocrossing those fast cars, raquetball, 'the social scene'.

I am an moderate Agnostic.

I was refferd to this site via a friend of mine.
Posted by Adam Lassek (Member # 1514) on :
I'm a 21 year old single male living in Omaha, Nebraska. I currently hold one degree in Microcomputer Technology and am almost finished with my second, in Computer Science. I currently work for Hewlett Packard, building servers.

Things I do for fun include video encoding, collecting exotic computer hardware, watching thought-provoking yet tragically unpopular movies, listening to a very diverse collection of music, and reading nonstop, mostly fiction. It was my love for OSC's Ender series that eventually led me to this website in the first place.

My political views are mostly conservative, although with anything Internet-related I'm more Libertarian. Despite this, I'm a registered Independant. Nothing pisses me off faster than partisan bickering.
Posted by Anonymous24 (Member # 1468) on :
Just from this thread and clicking on various people's profile links, it seems like there's a lot of techies here.
Posted by Ivan (Member # 1467) on :
Well, this is the internet. [Wink] So I'm not that surprised that there's a disproportionately large population of tech people. They know computers, so they spend a lot of their time on them. [Big Grin]
Posted by Ikemook (Member # 1519) on :
Didn't notice this thread earlier, or I would have posted.

I'm a 19-year (4 days and I'm 20!) old English [Createive Writing focus]/Anthropology major at the University of Uber-Humid-Swamp...I mean Florida. I spend my time gravitating between the gym, various clubs, writing, reading, playing Diablo II, various boards like this, and just staring outside a window (which is very relaxing). I'm a bit of an idealist, but I try to balance my idealism with pragmaticism, though not always to the greatest extent.

Instead of writing my various opinions on things, I'm just going to tell you all how I think, as I consider that more important. I try to judge people based upon the standards they set for themselves, and the standards society and culture requires from them. I don't always know what those standards are, but that hasn't stopped me yet ^_~ I try to adhere as strictly as I can to the principles of scientific thought and critical anaylsis/thinking, and the skepticism, delayed judgement, etc. they expound.

Perhaps more relevant to a forum setting, I consider argument, discussion, and debate with the purpose of someone winning or convincing another person of the correctness of their position pointless. To me, argument is about the respectful and enjoyable exchange of ideas and thoughts. If someone "converts" to your side, good for you. If not, oh well. The point of arguing isn't to win, it's to inform and discuss. Which is why I hate political debates, as they inevitably turn into shouting matches ^_~

In leiu of that, I also believe it is the responsibility of every person in the discussion to supply the correct information concerning their topic, provided, of course, that they KNOW what that correct information is, and to refrain from errors of logic ^_~ Since debates should be about the exchange of ideas, erroneous or out of date data can damage one or more persons' perception and understanding of said ideas, and rather effectively screw everything up.

Now, the correct information will not always be known or available ^_^ However, one person feels a statement or belief is contrary to evidence, he or she should *politely* point that out, so that other persons can make their conclusions based upon valid data.

Oh, and if you haven't noticed already, I have a tendency to explain things in very great, if not too great, detail. I like to cover all aspects of a certain argument, from beginning to end, so people can see my thought processes as well as my conclusions.

Alright, I SAID I wouldn't try and give specific opinions on things, but there are three things that just piss me off, to the point where I usually have to wait a bit to respond or get involved (I'm only human, after all).

1. Perversion or misrepresentation of scientific evidence. Also known as "Why David hates Eugenics."
2. Censorship of literary work or other information. There are instances, mostly involving children too young for the material, where this is appropriate. Otherwise, it's just an attempt to limit people's access to data and knowledge.
3. The state of scientific (and for that matter, general) education in our public schools. They make science seem so boring and unimaginable, and teach that terribly stupid "Scientific Method." Gah, so annoying!

Anyway, that's me. Sorry for the length!


David Carlson
Posted by CardassianScot (Member # 787) on :
Thought I'd better introduce myself, as I've said enough on a certain very long thread.

I'm 28 and the minister of a small church in North Wales, UK. I'm originally from Scotland and like Star Trek (hence the name Cardassian Scot). Although I have to admit Babylon 5, was much better. In my pre-ministerial life I was a Theoretical Physicist. I currently also work one day a week, running the computer system at my denominations UK theological College. I try to use Linux as much possible, although I have to admit Microsoft does produce a very nice, if overly exensive, office suite.

If that wasn't enough I'm also a part time student working on a MA, which should hopefully be the 1st year (well thats the full time equivalent) of my PhD when I'm finished. For those who are interested I'm looking at God and time, in the light of modern physics.

Finally, I'm engaged to be married to a lovely Portuguese young lady in 6 weeks time.
Posted by Brian (Member # 588) on :

What issue of what magazine were you published in and under what name?
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on :
CS, wow, 28 theoretical physicist, minister, scott marrying a portugese lady. In the words of Bill Murray in Stripes: I want to party with you dude.

But seriously, welcome everybody, the more the merrier.
[Big Grin]
Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 1217) on :
I have sent a few post here already, but I just saw this, so I decided to introduce myself:

My name is Anthony Rosa, and I live in Spokane, Washington. I am sadly only 16, and thus I do not have the experience, debating skills, or background of knowledge to compete with most of the people here in any of the debates. This is the first forum which has made me feel stupid for not knowing as much as anyone else, but... go figure.

I am male, straight, and go to high school. I am technically single, since the only girl I happen to be interested in now lives in Las Vegas. (I have been trying to amass sufficient reason to go there, but...) However, anyway, I hope to become a major in either business, law, or history. When that time comes, I will have to choose between those... but for now, I still act too childish to be considered an adult. I still prefer playing video games to working, for instance...

Sorry for the length, but there's my short introduction. See you.
Posted by Maxime Gagnon (Member # 1589) on :
I am born in Montreal in 1980, Quebec, Canada. I speak french and english, I can also understand "most" of spanish and italian.

First, I am a travelers: 10 months in France, 7 in Italia, 5 in Germany, 3 in Belgium and Holland, 2 in Grerse and 1 in Swiss. You can add to that 3 months in the north-center of the USA and 4 months In my own contry.

Like most of travelers I have "some" problem to stop traveling. (be carful, travel is not a hobby, it's a drug!!) but now I study in 2d/3d graphism and animation.

I dont beleve in god since I discover my father was the santa(just joking! My father to dont beleve).

I dont beleve communism becose everyone ave to agree for make it work, A am not a ultra-Liberal becose without gouvernment regulation, the chance is not equal for everyone. I am Socialist, it's not what most american think of it: free medical insurance, more control on economy and more publics services. It's not a kind of dictature, its democratic, Freedom and life quality is for everyone. Whe had this kind of system in Quebec since the last election.

(ex: Public Electricity in quebec, cheaper than in Ontario or USA and more reliable. Aug.15 2003: whe did'n had blackout went all the east coast was in the dark)
Posted by Maxime Gagnon (Member # 1589) on :
I forgot to tell you my interest in history, geography, politic and, and... almost everything exept cuntry music... I truly LOVE learning an understand thing.
Posted by Rte66 (Member # 176) on :
OK I think I hold the record for delinquency on this thread. It's been about 40 months since I registered. This thread started about the time I was leaving the forum--I recently came back.

I was born in 1963 in Germany. I lived in Kansas, Tokyo, Dayton Ohio, and Garden Grove CA until I settled in Huntington Beach California at the age of 5 (I was an Army brat). My parents still live in that house. I Graduated from UCI in Computer Science.

From the age of 16 to the age of 31 I was a very devout Christian. When I was 25 I spent two years living under a vow of poverty in a trans-denominational Mission Order. Next I was accepted by the Largest Bible translation mission agency but back out because I felt uncomfortable with the corporate SJ Personality (Myers Briggs Temperament). Over 60% of the organization is SJ I am INTP.

I am currently something of an agnostic. Non-linear systems and emergent complexity play important roles in my worldview. I believe that organized religions are powerful. Like fire, they can be used for good or bad. I have sympathies for the mis-maligned Christian.

I have been married to a Child Psychiatrist since '97. We have two wonderful girls born in June 2000 and July 2003. I tell ya it's kinda cool being treated like a rock star. DaDaaaa!!!! We live in West Los Angeles. My wife is a researcher at UCLA, I am a programmer in Century City.

In my pre fatherhood life I enjoyed Golf, Volleyball, Wallyball, Rollerblading, Chess and Martial Arts. Currently I only have time for Martial Arts. I have had the incredible luck to train with two of Bruce Lee's original students in two separate small informal groups. I trained 9 years with the first and the last two years with the other. I teach Jeet Kune Do (JKD) on occasion.

I believe in responsibility, both individuals and corporations.
I both believe in the economy of scale, and the law of diminishing returns.
I believe in helping those less fortunate than you. If you are not doing that then you have no right to expect help from those more fortunate than yourself.
I think the Democrats and the Republicans have unconstitutional power.

PS RedskullVW sent me a very nice email about two years ago. I tried to reply by my outgoing email was broken. I had just moved and changed DSL providers and forgot to change my POP3 info. Anyway a belated thanks for the email, and no two years ago I don't visit very often, but I do now.
Posted by witless chum (Member # 1643) on :
Hi, anyone who might care should know that I am no longer Dan Pepper, but have changed my posting name to "Witless Chum."

everything else is still the same:
posted February 26, 2004 10:17 AM                   
Edited to add stuff and correct my age:
Hi, I'm 25, married, I work as a journalist for a weekly paper. I've lived my whole life in Michigan, beginning next door to an Ojibwa reservation in Baraga, a tiny town in the Upper Penisula. I grew up in a more intellectual than average middle-class home. I went to Michigan State University (how ya like that basketball game, U of M!!!) and now live in a old suburb part of Kalamazoo.
My parent's are from New Jersey and lower Michigan, and owned a vet clinic, my mother later became a teacher. Pepper is an anglcised german name. I've also got Irish blood. The Pepper family came to America (I'm told) in the late 19th century. My mother's ancestors are said to include an Irish deserter from the British Army during the American Revolution.
I'm a leftist secular humanist (raised Catholic) and I'm proud to be a Midwesterner. I don't really care about fast cars, I love comics (Daniel Clowes is the king), books (my favorite is Lonesome Dove by Larry McMurtry), movies and music (everything from Tupac to Beethoven to the Clash to Pantera) and I'm saving up to buy a canoe. I like English beer and I believe in freedom, democracy and social justice, in that order.
I was a crappy college student and I have a dog and cat. The cat is a badass, as he fights the dog every day, even without claws.

Posted by kelcimer (Member # 1221) on :
why the change?
Posted by witless chum (Member # 1643) on :
I googled myself and saw it didn't take long to get to this board. I decided I didn't want my political opinions quite so easily accesible. As a reporter, it's generally accepted practice that you don't do anything publically political, such as bumper stickers and yard signs, so as to not give the appearance of bias. I don't really believe in the principle, (not that I think bias is OK, but that I think I've been sucessful in separting my opinions from my work), but someone hiring me in the future might.

Edited for spelling and to add:
'Witless Chum' is reference to "Chasing Amy," one of the funniest movies yet made

[ March 19, 2004, 02:00 PM: Message edited by: witless chum ]
Posted by jm0397 (Member # 916) on :
For all those anonymous folks who want to share some personal info.
Posted by LetterRip (Member # 310) on :
witless chum,

you might want to mangle your name in the above post, since now google can find it again.

Just do Da_n Pepp_er or something and that will be sufficient to avoid the eye of current search engines.

Posted by LetterRip (Member # 310) on :

Doing a search on my real name, you find out that I'm interested in open source and contribute ideas to a couple of different projects.

Search on my nickname, and you find I'm software for mailing lists. *g* I'm pretty sure I had my nickname before their software existed though...

Posted by towellman (Member # 1462) on :
Thanks to whoever bumped this topic up last, I hadn't noticed it existed until today, so sorry for not introducing myself earlier.

I'm 26, married 5 years, and a first year medical student at the Medical College of Wisconsin. I have a BS in Neuroscience and am also in the Air Force. No kids...yet.

Non-school/sport/family pastimes in order of time spent: stock investing, reading, Ornery

I am a dedicated skier (I grew up in the West so that actually means something...sorry midwesterners) and a not as dedicated mtn biker, rock-climber, hiker and ball-sport player.

My fundamental belief in personal responsibility, social conservatism, and future tax bracket put me on the right side of the political spectrum. I'd call myself an efficiency environmentalist meaning that I'm a committed recycler and support conservation movements just becasue it's efficient(not that save-the-plant mumbo jumbo), but I do love being outdoors.

Edited to add: I speak pretty fluent Chinese and have lived a month or more on four continents.

[ April 04, 2004, 09:23 PM: Message edited by: towellman ]
Posted by Doug64 (Member # 1044) on :
I am a devout Mormon and, thanks to Robert A. Heinlein, a libertarian. I have a Bachelor's in Business and am one class away from another in History. For me, a car is a device for getting from point A to point B, but I don't currently own one as Las Vegas has a half-decent transit system.
Posted by Redskullvw (Member # 188) on :
Wellcome to all. I sometimes forget this thread exists. But it helps to occassionaly re read it and be reminded that most of you are indeed human.
Posted by LSWellington (Member # 1510) on :
I really plan to introduce myself here eventually. Every time I see the thread, it's at a time that I just don't have the time to do it. I promise that I will eventually.
Posted by WarrsawPact (Member # 1275) on :
I'm not so sure I even need to, though I thought about it. I've already posted well over 1500 posts here... anyone not know anything about me yet?

People here get a better idea of who I am by reading what I post than by looknig here, because if I just call myself something like "conservative," people are going to get a very wrong idea of who I am.

I guess I'll just state again, for the record:
I'm 18 for the about another month. I'm attending college now with a 4.0, on the Dean's list, and an Honors student... probably going to go with PoliSci as a major. I am what you people who are convinced of the existence of "race" call white, and I live in a totally drug-infested suburban Southern California city. I was a Picket Captain in the SoCal supermarket strike that lasted about five months.

You'll figure out my stance on issues as we debate with one another.
I used to be a dedicated Tireless Rebutter, but now it's more of an on-and-off habit than full-time occupation.
Posted by Sancselfieme (Member # 1373) on :
I guess it's about time to post here.

I'm an old/young guy (I think I mentioned my age at a certain year in the 60s on another thread but I'll be damned if I post my current age here [Wink] ) who lives in Circle, Alaska. I am retired Fish and Game department from the days when Alaska used to have its own fish & game department (before the Katey-John takeover by the Feds). I graduated from University of Oregon with a bachelor's in wildlife management and biochem. In that long time since my math and organic chem. have degraded horrendously but I still manage to do better than my sons! [Big Grin] . Speaking of my family my father moved us up here shortly before Alaska became a state, and I have been in love with this place ever since. It really is the best place on earth, but keep it a secret, OK? I met my wife working on the pipeline in its construction and today I have 2 grown boys who are married and have kids of their own. I have a third son graduating high school and soon to enter either kindergarten or the local jail. Most of my career as a wildlife agent was spent cataloging critters in the Interior and up on the north slope and where ANWR is today.

As politics goes I used to be a Republican all my life until George Bush, now I have officially re-registered as an independant after realizing that I helped put the fiscal-idiot into power four years ago. I am socially moderate and economically conservative. I am a Christian but I don't go around beating the good book in people's faces. I love to hunt moose and wolves -not from planes mind you- and fish for the biggest and best King Salmon in the world on the Klutina River.

[ April 05, 2004, 05:45 AM: Message edited by: Sancselfieme ]
Posted by Shane Roe (Member # 1542) on :
Okay, I'm from Salt Lake City (rather Kearns for those of you who know Utah), I'm nearly 45 and I work for the U.S. Postal Service. What kind of American am I? I think you'd call me conservative, though I have some strong liberal positions on some things, like the environment, having spent most of my life as an avid outdoorsman (hunting, fishing, camping, hiking etc.).

Other "vital" statistics: I'm a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I play the guitar and banjo, I like to be physically fit so I try and exercise regularly, I have a wife and three children, the youngest kid being 16. I'm big into music and computer stuff (primarily the internet, though I like to build computers and things like that). I'm a writer and you can find my essay in a new book called "Letters To America" If you go to this link, you can view a quote from my essay if you click on "Quotes From the Letters". Anyway, in a nutshell, that's me.

Shane Roe
Posted by Mr Xin Ku (Member # 1472) on :
Have the names "Locke" or "Demosthenes" ever been used as display names on this forum?
Posted by potemkyn (Member # 1040) on :
Since the Mod has cleaned the forum maybe more folks will join the ranks of the posters. I don't really do this stuff, but if it helps to introduce yourself, feel free to. I hope we see more fresh faces.
Posted by Redskullvw (Member # 188) on :
Ok I saw four new members post today and saw a few I hadn't seen in awhile. Anyway it seems like it may be time to update the thread a bit. So when you get a chance go find your introduction and check it.

Thanks for joining.
Posted by potemkyn (Member # 1040) on :
I just looked over the past two or three pages...There are more and more bumps with less and less intros.
Posted by Arileth (Member # 1574) on :
My name is Nathan Player. I am a 23 year old student finishing up my senior year of undergrad. I am majoring in Criminal Justice with a minor in legal studies. After I graduate, I plan on going to law school. I have been married for two years and I couldn't be happier. I am the youngest of nine children born to parents that made less than six figures.

I consider myself to be on the right side of the republican party, and I am proudly voting for President Bush in November.

My political philosophy boils down to this:

"People have the right to work hard and keep what they earn. Refusing to reward idolness does not make you a bad person. I believe charity should be kept in the relm of moral persuasion. People should help each other. Not because the government says so, but because they have compassion for one other. Futhermore- If someone is a greedy sucker, he has every right to be as long as he earned the money he is greedy with".

Pure Capitalism is the least of all evils (if for no other reason than it doesn't rob it's members of the fruits of their labors). [Big Grin]
Posted by Mr Xin Ku (Member # 1472) on :
I posted here before, but deleted it in one of my moments of frustration with Ornery. Turns out I haven't kept away from it, and since the Ornery temple has been cleansed, I again feel the enthusiasm to be part of the Ornery forum. (I hope those guys come back after their exile).

I grew up in Idaho, and now live in Cache Valley, Utah, and love it here. I was a missionary (LDS) in Taiwan 90-92. Chad Lewis of the Philidelphia Eagles was a missionary with me there.

I went to school at Ricks College, BYU-Hawaii, and BYU-Provo (religiously homogenous, culturally diverse). My wife (from Reno) and I went to two years at BYU-Hawaii right afer we got married and had a great experience. I was a tour guide at the Polynesian Cultural Center while in Hawaii.

My wife is a School Psychologist and I am a Marriage and Family Therapist. When people hear I am therapist, half of them think, "I better stay away from that guy," and the othe half think, "I need to talk to him." It is slightly irritating to me that OSC writes every therapist/pscyhologist character as an idiot. I think that a good therapist is kind of like a Speaker for the Dead. I've done a lot of marital therapy, anger management treatment, domestic violence treatment, and some work with sex offenders. I work lately with a lot of child and adolescent problems.

I have three daughters and a yellow lab (can't we even get a male dog?! I'm outnumbered). School, licensure, and now setting up my own business has kept me busy, but I love hunting when I can get out. I love working for myself, and since I can chose me own title ("president" "clinical director" "therapist") I think I am going to get some business cards with the title "Supreme Overlord" made.

My business website is at Summit Counseling Services It loads extremely slow. I'll fix that soon and finish the site. It is on my "to do" list, which means I will get to it around 2006.

Mike Hinds
Mr. Xin Ku

[ April 14, 2004, 03:45 AM: Message edited by: Mr Xin Ku ]
Posted by Pete at Home (Member # 429) on :
Just wanted to congradulate CS on his marriage!
Posted by EDanaII (Member # 1062) on :
CS? CardassianScott?

Whomever it may be, Congrats. [Wink]

Posted by RickyB (Member # 1464) on :
I'm 33, live in Tel Aviv, hold a Bachelors degree in History and Poli Sci, will one day find the time and money to go back to school for the damn PhD.

I'm a drug reform activist and served as spokesman for Israel's Green Leaf party (Ale Yarok), which twice narrowly failed to enter Knesset.

I am decidedly anti-clerical, and have pagan tendencies. I believe salvation is the most individual and lonely experience possible.

I own a large dog (part german shepherd, part collie, I think) and a beat-up '88 Vespa moped. I'm getting married in less than a month and expecting my firstborn child in about 7.

Musically, I'm a throwback. I prefer classic Rock'nRoll, Funk and Blues to most of what's on the radio nowadays. My favorite "recent" acts are Us3 and The North Mississippi AllStars.

My favorite contemporary writers are Guy Gavriel Kay, John Varley, Anne Rice and Umberto Eco (although "The Islands of the Day Before" sucked). I'm a huge fan of Robert Graves and Asimov.

That's about it, I think.
Posted by Daruma28 (Member # 1388) on :
Interesting thread. Glad it got I have more background on the people I've been arguing with for the past month.... [Big Grin]

I've been a long time lurker here, and only recently decided to jump in the fray. I used to get into all kinds of political debates on an NFL Football message board, but that kind of dried up this past off season.

I found Ornery on a whim. I've read a few of OSC's books and really like the Seventh Son stories, so one day when I was bored, I googled OSC and found this lovely little forum.

I'm 30 years old and was born and raised in Hawaii. I graduated from Mililani High School - the school where American Idol finalist Jasmine Trias attends - and have a Bachelor's in Business Administration in two disciplines: Marketing and Management Information Systems, with a minor in economics. My education had a big role in forming my ideas, which is why I am such a strong proponent of free market capitalism and entrepreneurialship.

I currently live in the mountains in the island of O'ahu, and am an avid outdoorsmen. I love hunting, hiking, fishing, camping, diving, surfing, drinking good beer and smoking high quality, Hawaiian cannabis.

I'm also an avid martial artist and have been training for over a decade and am now a full time instructor at my dojo.

I love all kinds of music -- Hawaiian folk music, blues, jazz,flamenco to Hard rock/heavy metal -- and I play a variety of instruments -- but am primarily a guitarist.

I've come to my political leanings due to a variety of influences. One, I was raised by Republican parents in a State that has been dominated by Democrats for over 50 years. I actually worked for the State Government for three years as a web developer and technical writer, before our Republican govorner was elected in '02 and She immediately slashed the size and scope of the State goverment - which included my own job. lol - I voted for her full well knowing that that is what would happen...but I must say that seeing the waste and corruption and slothfulness of the majority of the State Unionized workers from the inside, I voted my conscience, because I knew change was necesary.

I now work for the local subsidiary of MRI International, an International corporation as a project coordinator.

I am by no means a Republican, because there is too much of what they stand for that I abhor. I vote Republican locally because it's basically the only real chance to give the Democrats here the middle finger. The Dems have been ensconced in power here in the islands since the end of WWII and they have taxed, spent. over-developed and bloated up the local Government to unsustainable levels. Corruption is endemic in our Government and if there is one thing I learned from living in one of the most staunchly Democrat States in the union, it is an overwhelming loathing for all things Democrat. I truly believe the Donkey is the most apropos symbol for the party of jackasses.

I would like to see an end to the two party dominance of US politics, a drastic reduction to the size, scope and power of a centralized Federal government, a return to States rights, and the strict limitation of the Federal Government to what it was originally intended for: namely national defense and running elections.

I differ from the Dems and Reps because they both expand the size of Government, both are not interested in ending unconstitutional, socialist tax and spend programs like Medicare, Social Security, the NEA and the sad, pathetic joke that is the war on drugs. I would also like to see the proper enforcement of our immigration laws. All illegal immigrans should be deported, denied any tax payer funded services, and only LEGAL immigration should be allowed.

I differ from the Libertarians because they believe in isolationism and cutting our defense even more than the Democrats.

So I really don't know exactly what I would consider myself, other than maybe a Wilsonian Neo-Libertarian?

Anyhow, I rather enjoy the political debate here. I just want people to know that I do not believe in personal attacks or flaming - I think that is the default position of people that cannot adequately defend their ideas on intellectual and moral grounds. Sometimes my arguments have been misconstrued here as personal attacks and flames. Just know that such is never my intent.
Posted by Shane Roe (Member # 1542) on :
Well, I may have answered this post once, but I can't find it, so here, in a nutshell am I:

I'm 44 and live in Utah. I'm married with three children, the oldest 22 and married, the youngest 16. I'm a mailman by profession, although how I got to be one is a story in and of itself. I started out majoring in English, had a young family and the postal exam came up. After I did well on the test, I had the option of feeding my family, or finishing my degree. I chose feeding the family. Ever since, I've wanted to go back--I think I could be a permanent student.

My interests include, but aren't limited to: writing, hiking, fishing, hunting, reading, arguing on the internet, guitar playing.

I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, better known as the "Mormons", I'm a conservative Bush supporter, although I'm not real keen on everything he's done as pres. Yes, I listen to conservative radio, and no, not Rush (Zyne! LOL!). Usually it would be Michael Medved, Tony Snow, and Laura Ingraham, although my favorite talk-show host of all time is Dennis Prager who was moved to a time-slot where I can no longer listen to him. I've written a novel (as of yet unpublished), and am published non-fictionwise in several places including Outdoor Life.

My goals in life include selling books, becoming a very good guitar player, keeping God's commandments, and winning.

My only real claim to fame: undefeated ever in air hockey (lol).

Posted by RickyB (Member # 1464) on :
Oh yeah. I forgot to mention that I'm an NFL nut, and I run
Israel's leading American Football site at the portal where I work.

J-E-T-S Jets Jets Jets! (goddess, what a lame battle cry...)
Posted by Daruma28 (Member # 1388) on :
May I ask Ricky why the Jets? lol

Since we don't have an NFL team in Hawaii, I kind of picked the Vikings as my favorite team. I was always a casual football watcher (and have gone to the probowl every year since I was a child), it was the '98 Vikings and their highest scoring offense of all time that got me hooked into NFL Fever....

So how does an Israeli pick the Jets? And how do you get the games over their? Do you have direct ticket...or are you at the mercy of whatever your stations want to broadcast?

lol, doesn't it seem like the off season is just toooooo long?
Posted by aupton15 (Member # 1771) on :
My name is Aaron and I recently wandered into this forum on a slow day at the office. I'm currently finishing work on my Master's thesis in Philly, and hope to move back to my hometown of Huntington, WV to prepare for the PhD circuit next year. I find myself in the middle of most political arguments I hear, mostly because I consider myself a pragmatist, and neither side seems very practical to me. I have a history of naive idealism, but the cynic inside comes out more often these days. I look forward to participating more frequently in the coming months.
Posted by Syzygy (Member # 1523) on :
I guess I never answered this...
My name is Scott, I'm 29, and I found this forum when a fellow Card-fiction admirer pointed out OSC's response to gay marriage. Since I got married in Ontario last summer to my partner of four years (now five years), I jumped in head first arguing with people about it. I've calmed since then [Smile] and now I generally just read what yall are saying when I get a chance.

I'm a spacecraft guidance, nav and controls engineer for NASA (mostly attitude control--I worked on the Microwave Anisotropy Probe (MAP) mission that launched back in 2001, for example). We have two cats and, as of this week, an increasing number of cicadas in our yard (they came out late in our town).

Politically, I'm a fiscal and foreign-affairs moderate, and I guess I'm pretty far left on social matters when I vote. But, I'm reluctantly pro-choice, I'm pro-gun ownership (though I like them far away from my person, and not heavy armaments), I'm strongly anti divorce-for-no-good-reason.

I'm an atheist (but not anti-spirituality) who tries to live by Jesus' teachings. I love growing things, I play strategy games, I weigh 120 lbs and am 5'11" tall, I drive a dented '97 Taurus, I catch spiders and put them outside alive rather than killing them, I sing in a men's chorus, and I have the fashion sense of Dilbert.

Does that cover it?
Posted by Curmudgeon (Member # 1395) on :
I am a 60 year old happily married male living in Southern California. I enjoy classical music, South Park, food (and spirits), playing on the computer, reading (science fiction, mystery), and watching professional wrestling. I am also interested in politics (I would describe myself as Republican-conservative with a touch of libertarianism)and Judaism (I would have converted by now had I not discovered and become addicted to the Internet). I am not an expert in any of these areas.
Posted by RickyB (Member # 1464) on :
Because I'm a NYC native, and
a) I'm a Mets fan from early childhood, so the Jets are closer spiritually than the Giants.
b) I figured the Jets need me more
c) I tried to pull the "I just root for NYC teams" routine for several years, but when finally forced to choose the Jets were in a good period (1998, making the AFC finals, barely losing to a superior Broncos team, Vinnie finally playing up to his potential), playing attractive football, which the big blue wrecking crew hasn't done... probably since Fran Tarkenton. Wayne Chrebet really cemented it for me. I love that guy. I love Herm too. "You play to win the game!"

As for broadcast, we don't do so bad. The hilarious Gregg Easterbrook has commented on it often. Unlike most folk in the states, who have to watch their home team no matter how bad it is, and languish while the marquee matchups get blocked, over here they at least try for the most attractive games.

METV (Middle East TV, missionary station carrying the 700 club and crap like that, really old sitcoms and series [Gilligan's Island, F Troop, Bonanza] and NFL) shows the 1PM and 4PM EST games, and ESPN delivers the Sunday and Monday night, so I'm good to go [Smile]
Posted by Zyne (Member # 117) on :
Shane, that was hardly an insult; a big bunch of folks here would consider your Rush habit to be nothing more than a demonstration of your good taste.

[Big Grin]
Posted by Shane Roe (Member # 1542) on :
[Roll Eyes]
Shane, that was hardly an insult; a big bunch of folks here would consider your Rush habit to be nothing more than a demonstration of your good taste.
Now there you go again! I have listened to Rush for all of about half an hour in my lifetime. I used to listen to Dennis Prager ( during the same time slot, and Prager is much more interesting and thought provoking. Check out his articles if you haven't read him before. (for some reason the ubb code isn't coming up on my screen--I probably have too many things running right now, including the Lakers/Timberwolves game--so I can't post the link to click on, but it's easy to type.) Now I'd admit listening to Rush if I had, for more than I stated above.

Posted by WarrsawPact (Member # 1275) on :
Zyne - Who are the posters here who consider Rush Limbaugh to be in good taste? Or are you putting words in people's mouths?

Who ARE the "big bunch of folks" you describe?
Posted by RickyB (Member # 1464) on :
Hey, Card once said that "Rush is amusing".
Posted by Zahal (Member # 1768) on :
ok...we all know he is
lol, he can be boring and amusing, it just depends on the topic. My problem with Rush is that after he gets interesting, he gets in love with his voice and doesn't take many callers. He ends up repeating the same thing for 3 hours (or close to it).

[ May 30, 2004, 05:30 PM: Message edited by: Zahal ]
Posted by RickyB (Member # 1464) on :
Sorry, I don't find him amusing. I know lots of people who don't. And I am perfectly capable of enjoying artful put-downs of positions I happen to hold. You're Israeli, so maybe you know Meir Uziel? I find him hilarious. He's right wing, I'm left. I'll never forget how in 1988 he wrote "Last year we marked 20 years of occupation. This year we mark 40 years. How time flies".

(If you don't get it, do the math. It'll come to you). I think that's just a huge zinger. It's droll, it's kills. If I laughed, at the seriously idealistic age of 18, it must be good.

Rush, however, is an oaf. His "humor" is that of the class bully, and so are his tactics. Ever wonder how come you never see him take anyone on? "Unguested confrontation" is the only kind of confrontation a craven bubblehead can survive. Read Al Franken's (truly funny) book on the subject for a complete deconstruction of the Limbaugh phenomenon.
Posted by shrike (Member # 1532) on :
I'm a Canadian and an avid curler.
Posted by WarrsawPact (Member # 1275) on :

Not curling!

If I didn't have the non-sport of cheerleading to beat up on, I'd focus on curling (a quasi-sport).
Posted by shrike (Member # 1532) on :
Give curling a try....then see how you feel after sweeping hard for 3 games in a day. [Razz] [Smile]
Posted by msquared (Member # 113) on :

That is why WP called it a quasi-sport. It does take conditioning and stuff.

How ever, I think that the two teams should be able to do full body blocks on the other teams members. They are not allowed to touch the weight thing, but the people are open seasons.

Posted by FIJC (Member # 1092) on :
Cheerleading is a sport, what you are talking about?
Posted by Ivan (Member # 1467) on :
Cheerleading is a sport, what you are talking about?
Exactly! Just because women do it doesn't necessarily mean it's not a sport!
Posted by Serotonin'sGone (Member # 1219) on :
Cheerleaders are dancers who have gone retarded
excellent quote from one of the all time great bad movies, bring it on...
Posted by Major Stubble (Member # 1820) on :
Hi, all. First-time poster, long-time lurker.

Thought I should finally get off my duff and actually register. Suppose it's only fair.

Thanks for the great times all.

-Major Stubble
Posted by RickyB (Member # 1464) on :
Cheerleading is a sport? [Roll Eyes]
Posted by FIJC (Member # 1092) on :
"Cheerleading is a sport?"
Yes, and I always hate it when people totally bash the sport. First of all, one has to be able to tumble in order to even make the cheerleading squad. Seriously, if gymnastics is to be considered a legitimate sport, then cheerleading should, because both are intensive in tumbling. Plus, it takes a lot of coordination to either be a base or a flyer. Especially being a flyer, you have to have a good sense of balance and could get very hurt should you not be caught when thrown up.
Posted by Richard Dey (Member # 1727) on :
If introductions are in order, somebody should introduce me; there being no hands, I shall be obliged with some annoyance to introduce myself --disjointedly as it comes to me which may or may not reveal something to any Psych 101ers in the house.

By avocation, I am a writer: encyclopedia articles, numerous reviews, and umpteen articles; and I am an editor of numerous things.

My education has been as an educator; one never learns till one teaches, and one learns quickest not to teach.

My favorite ingenue is Margaret Rutherford.

My interests are pretty basic and ordinary: the ontogyny of consciousness and the origins of civilizations; UnNatural Selection; biographical, military, and naval history; architecture; and dogs -- but not in that order.

The greatest irritants in my life are American foreign policy; American domestic policy; the Abrahamic religions; censorship; religious hypocrisy; grammatical piety; effeminism; political propriety; motorcycles, and other fartmobiles; Mahler; postmodernist deconstructionism; random probability; semiotics; and political and religious child abuse.

My least-favorite language is French. It is the language of diplomacy and deviousness.

My loci now are New England and the Virgin Islands. New England is very civilized and reasonably safe; the Islands are neither safe nor civilized. One needs stimulating seasons or contrasts.

I hold sundry memberships in alphabet-soup orgs as befits my needs and only occasionally my interests. It's called academic dependency, and it is a form of collective mental illness. They all suck. Groups never had an idea in their lives; ideas come from individuals (in groups).

My musical preference is for law-and-order composers such as Brahms, Foote, Medtner, Prokofieff, Bartok, Hindemith, Nielsen, Stenhammer, that sort, but I should have ranked the human voice above middle C as an irritant -- especially when it is giving orders. The part of my brain responding to folk culture of all sorts has atrophied.

I am retired but I occasionally lecture.

My regular periodicals are the Economist, the Journal of Homomophilics, the Gay and Lesbian Review (which is egghead chic), The Gay Review (which is essentialist and libertarian), the Times Literary Supplement, the WSJ, and Yachting. I also read Wooden Boat and dabble in others. Magazine salesmen are wasting their time with me.

By philosophy, I am a Diogenesian Cynic -- which is to say that I prefer dogs to people.

My politics are strictly Libertarian; I do not vote for other parties at all. I am, however, also an adamant Antimonarchist, by which is implied that, when Jesus comes again, he will have to sign up for federal campaign funds like everybody else running for office. There shall be no kingdom come in this country whilst I am alive. Like many of you, I am a descendent of the founders of the Republic and that's what it is going to remain.

My position on global warming is that I am all for it.

My present projects, which because of my age must be driven in very high gear, include the imposition of Homophilics curricula in the public schools. The less the public likes of this idea the better, because it is going to come as a terrible shock to what's left of my parents' generation. If it hurts the brain, then bang the foot at the same time.

By religion I am an excommunicated Unitarian; when they refused to make me the Unit, we ceased communicating.

By sex/and/or/gender I am a masculinist, which helps to explain the religious deconversion.

My temperament, ignoring the four usual ones, tends to be tongue in nose: mucusoid perhaps; I was banned from boxing because I kept taking out my gun. As a bicyclist, I have oft been obliged to use the defense that, had I followed the rules of the road, I would long since have been dead. Civilization was not a steady progression of legislation and following rules. It was a series of revolutions -- which may be an odd thing to hear from a devout Libertarian, but civilization, being unnatural, is a paradox.

My interest in this forum, as opposed to others on the net, was its relative objectivity, keeping its mind on a topic and dissecting it. Biographs disturb that objectivity, not that they don't give clues to future arguments and adversaries. In this respect, I would admit to playing Devil's advocate on occasion but, since I am a monotheist and therefore do not believe in the Devil (nor can any other monotheist believing in God), that would be disarming without declaring peace.

I found everyone's exposition most interesting, entertaining, and offering prospects for some good mindgames henceforth; but I don't kiss referees' behinds and I've been known to boo cheerleaders.

N.B. R.B.:

Cheerleading is definitely a sport: it's hype, advertising, sitting around, jumping up and down, and all that's missing is the injury reports (of which there could be more if they took their sport more seriously). - A Braves and Patriots Fan -
Posted by Politius (Member # 1756) on :
Um...i guess. Im 25, Chinese-American (one of the few who admit it), i actually do martial arts, including Taekwondo (for 11 years [going on 12]) and kendo (less than a year). I'm a 3rd degree black belt. I love discussing philosophy and politics, and um...reading?
Posted by RickyB (Member # 1464) on :
Well, I have a problem with all so-called sports that require subjective judgement to tell the winner. Cheerleading is an athletic pursuit, but not a sport. Same goes for gymnastics.
Posted by FIJC (Member # 1092) on :
So the same would apply to figure skating?
Posted by kelcimer (Member # 1221) on :
Wow. I'm gonna have to agree with RickyB here. It's not a real sport unless you have an indisputable way of determining who wins.

You know, like chess. [Smile]
Posted by Richard Dey (Member # 1727) on :
Well, to be a good sport I'll jump up and down and stand corrected; but I do sometimes find the cheerleaders more sporting than the athletes.

Welcome Politius; this group needs a few kicks (;-).
Posted by Zyne (Member # 117) on :
Cheerleading: A recent amalgamation of sports. Where girls end up hurt bad. Treat it more like the sport it is, maybe it'll be safer for the kids doing it.

[ June 12, 2004, 01:51 AM: Message edited by: Zyne ]
Posted by RickyB (Member # 1464) on :
chess doesn't have the physical exertion part. It's a competitive endeavor, but not a sport.

And yes, FIJC, the same applies to figure skating, ballroom dancing, syncronized swimming, high diving...
Posted by Van Aaron (Member # 98) on :
So boxing is only a sport when it's decided by knockout? How about team sports in general, which are all commonly decided by close calls by the officials?
Posted by RickyB (Member # 1464) on :
close calls are not the same. a toughie.
Posted by Jondi (Member # 1626) on :
I’ve been lurking on this board for over a year now, so it’s past time for me to introduce myself and start posting.
I am an eighteen-year-old female from Ohio. I just graduated from home school. I plan on starting college in the fall with an aerospace engineering major.
As far as hobbies go, I enjoy reading, writing, playing the piano, liturgical dance, and space history. My favorite authors are OSC (of course), Terry Pratchett, Tolkien, and Asimov, although I will read almost anything.
I’m Catholic and conservative, although I’m not an official member of any party. That’s one of the reasons I like this board – it’s a good place to see different ideas and opinions reasoned out.
Posted by Van Aaron (Member # 98) on :
Terry Pratchett is the funniest man alive.
Posted by WarrsawPact (Member # 1275) on :
Oh my, another young Catholic conservative.

Welcome to the club [Smile]

Tezcatlipoca = Catholic conservative 19-year-old guy... and did you say aerospace and Tolkien? In fact, did you say piano? Did you say you enjoyed reading?
Are you sure you're not related?

WarrsawPact = plain old Catholic conservative 19-year-old guy.

Let's take care not to become any kind of pigeonholed Flame Warrior groups.

[ June 17, 2004, 12:44 PM: Message edited by: WarrsawPact ]
Posted by msquared (Member # 113) on :
How about a middle aged Catholic conservative?

Posted by Jondi (Member # 1626) on :
As far as I know, I've never met Tezcatlipoca. Still, online one is never quite sure. :-)
Posted by Ivan (Member # 1467) on :
Wow. And I always thought youngsters like me (20! hah!) were a small minority on this board.
Posted by msquared (Member # 113) on :

I would say that most members are in their 20's. Or to put a better way, members in their 20's make up the largest single group.

Posted by yossarian22c (Member # 1779) on :
I've already posted a few times in various things, thought I should add an introduction.

I'm 21 entering my senior year as a math and physics major. I enjoy taking history classes and reading about various events in history as well. I am open to many ideas across the political spectrum. Everything from some libertarian ideas to socialist principals. It's reflected in my personality, I once took a personality test that said I was equal parts idealist and realist.
Posted by sourmilk (Member # 1836) on :
Well I suppose I should introduce myself, I'm a 21 year Male. I'm curently enlisted in the United States Army in the Infantry. I enjoy reading history of all sorts, fiction, just about anything I can get my hands on. To be honest I can find some truth in most philosophies and ideas. Its simply which ones to choose that can be tricky at times. I also just came off a one year tour in Iraq with the 101st ABN Division 502nd INF regiment.
Posted by Rewington (Member # 1818) on :
I might as well introduce myself before entering debate here. I'm midway through my twenty third year working on a Manufacturing Engineering degree and I work alot on Japanese and Music as well.

I'm keeping Japanese up because my profession origanated in Japan, and I wouldn't mind working there and finding out some of their work plans and ideas about production organization.

Music on the other hand is one thing that helps keep me sane and calm. I would never do it professionally because it would lose many of its aspects that I treasure most about playing music.

I generally consider myself a moderate that stays on top of current events. Though it seems that being a moderate generally means that I have some views that makes conservatives angry and some views that make liberals angry, and some views that both can compromise towards. [Wink]
Posted by Shan (Member # 1588) on :
I tend to lurk but think I might possibly post every now and again. Some of you may know me from the "other side" and I may know some of you. As we all know, I am a uniformly sweet, reasonable and kind person. I never make inopportune comments, or crack jokes that are off-color, and I certainly never make any statements without plenty of back-up documentation.

For real sports, try roofing. Starting with the tear-off and ending with clean-up. Use strict time limits and get paid by the job completion, not the hour. There's a sport for ya.
Posted by nyani (Member # 1828) on :
I'm 17 and a girl, and i'm a really ignorant kid with a bad memory. I hate politics but I like knowing what's going on. Anyway I'm here to catch up on my ignorance of world affairs.

I'm attracted to the idea of doing things like working for the CIA and living under a rock in the Malaysian rainforest because if my life isn't some what on edge I get bored. Humans were designed to spend all day hunting and foraging and building and trying to survive, and next to that, being online and watching TV doesn't seem very meaningful.

I like most sports, including lacrosse, snowboarding, wakeboarding, and so on. I like Radiohead and playing guitar. I like OSC's books. And psych. What else. Art. I can sorta draw. I'm also really interested in foreign languages; right now I'm focusing on Japanese. Languages are the only thing for which I have a good memory. I would travel, but I am dirt poor.

I'm a *dumb white person*, but my school consists almost completely of people from China, Japan, Israel, Singapore, Taiwan, Germany, Mexico and so on and on. That's how I got into languages.

Nyani, of course, ain't my real name. I'm not a monkey.
Posted by WarrsawPact (Member # 1275) on :
Being able to learn languages well leads me to beleive you're not really *ignorant*. You're just not the Regurgitating Scholar type.

I'd guess you're able to think in different ways more readily than most people, but that it takes something really stimulating to keep you focused and keep your brain interested in things that are mentally straightforward.
Posted by WarrsawPact (Member # 1275) on :
Reading all the intros so far, you have to credit Richard Dey. I don't even have the words to describe... probably because my vocabulary struggles against all those words I'm not used to hearing.

So, RD:
A masculinist? By that do you mean you're actually a masculinist or, as I've found a number of self-described masculinists are, a gender equitist?
And it's certainly funny to find a Diogenesian Cynic. I don't suppose you have a comfortable house...
Posted by Anonymous24 (Member # 1468) on :
Regurgitating Scholar type? Not as bad as the Regurgitating Bush Supporter type...
Posted by WarrsawPact (Member # 1275) on :
Pardon, but what did that have to do with this?
Posted by Anonymous24 (Member # 1468) on :
I always flinch when I hear some term like 'regurgitating scholar type' or 'elitist academic' or something like that because I've associated it with low-level discourse.

[ July 06, 2004, 02:28 AM: Message edited by: Anonymous24 ]
Posted by WarrsawPact (Member # 1275) on :
But it's true. I could whip 95% of the people who scored better than I did on tests in high school, even in AP/Honors classes. A lot of these kids buy their Starbucks and study a few hours a day before a test and do study groups and all that crap.

They have been trained perfectly to remember a fact only so long as i is immediately necessary to know it. I made a game of bringing up material from earleir in the year that was related to what we were talknig about, and I participated in class discussions. What few relevant questions you hear out of most kids with near-4.0's where I come from is some veiled way of asking what's gonig to be on the test.

Does this mean I can't regurgitate? No, it just means I despise it and I never study. I either learn the concept or I don't (and the "don't" doesn't come very often). And when finals come up, I always ace the hell out of them because I've internalized what I know throughout the year, and kids who traditionally outscored me on tests during the year are suddenly in a panicked state of dread and they do fair to poor. It's how I saved a lot of my grades in high school: in-class participation and tests edged out the lack of homework.

That's why I use the word "regurgitation." They aren't digesting one iota of the knowledge, which is why professors make a habit of going back to old material that should have been locked in from last year. It's ridiculous.

Now the problem I see is when others start to see themselves as "ignorant" or -- worse, "stupid" -- just because they haven't designed their habits and thinking style to take advantage of the testing system in our schools. Thier grades may suffer because they're not just fact-gobblers who head straight for the bold words in the text and the vocabulary/summary section at the end of the chapter, or keeps a set of Cliff's Notes at their side. But it seems to me that nyani probably is fairly sharp at certain things, things that appeal to that thinking style (ask me if I can internalize a language quickly -- not a chance. I can pick up abstract concepts and strategize, I can be cunning with how I approach certain problems, but god help me if you try to feed me another language.).
Posted by FIJC (Member # 1092) on :
"A lot of these kids buy their Starbucks and study a few hours a day before a test and do study groups and all that crap."
I had an even better system--I would just buy my Starbucks and then not study at all before the test.
Posted by WarrsawPact (Member # 1275) on :
Good on ya!
Posted by FIJC (Member # 1092) on :
"Good on ya!"
I think that when college kids do all the "study group" sessions, it usually means that they are desperately trying to catch up on all the material they have not yet read before the test. Because most of college is self-motivated, meaning that there isn't any daily homework to turn in, a lot of people end up slacking daily. I didn't do any of that study group stuff because I actually read the material daily and went to class!
Posted by Shan (Member # 1588) on :
It is amazing how showing up and paying attention can carry the day.

Add good note-taking, and scheduling in time to research, THINK, and THEN write just seems to cap the whole thing.

Study groups and group work seemed to me an easy out for students that had not done their work and/or had no intention of doing any work.

In the professional field, it's much more apparent when someone drops the ball (or doesn't pick it up to begin with) - fairly unpopular and usually with some unwanted results. At least where I work. (Shrug)
Posted by MatthewofTheB (Member # 1880) on :
i wish people would learn to talk about what matters.
Posted by Serotonin'sGone (Member # 1219) on :
Study groups and group work seemed to me an easy out for students that had not done their work and/or had no intention of doing any work.

In some instances I would agree. However, this last year I've found them to be invaluable on several occasions. If the group is composed of motivated, intelligent individuals (which is just about everyone in grad school) it can be very useful.

In once class we even formed a group in order to pursue research and advanced topics we knew the professor would never touch. I guess I'm finally at the point where what I actually learn from a class has superseded the importance of grades or performing well on an exam. It's too bad it has taken me 16 years to get here.
Posted by MatthewofTheB (Member # 1880) on :
good for you [Smile]
Posted by MatthewofTheB (Member # 1880) on :
is there any body out there, what a thread any way?
Posted by Zyne (Member # 117) on :
If the group is composed of motivated, intelligent individuals (which is just about everyone in grad school) it can be very useful.
I cannot tell the difference between a motivated law school study group and a nazi patrol on a scavenger hunt. In law school, for those who don't know, there's ordinarily only one grade, the final exam. You turn in nothing during the semester for class. It's totally messed up.

For a good study group, tho, you'll write pages and pages of briefs and outlines and meet several times a week--shitteth thee not, the year I was a full blown study grouper I did some 500 pages of polished analysis, and my four groupmates each did a different 500, and we met some 15 hours a week. It worked, but it was too much work for my tastes, I never did do that again.
Posted by whirlwind (Member # 1858) on :
Having just joined Ornery recently (although I've been popping by Hatrack for years) it seems about time I throw in the bio.

Male, 37, married, one fabulous kid she already had and one more we've added since; they are my world, although I don't seem to spend as much time with them as I ought.

Born in Chicago of German heritage, residing in the outskirts of Detroit, more or less living the idyllic suburban existence. Bachelor's degree in English from the U of Michigan, which supposedly makes me a bit of a snob; in fact, I already was long before college. Misuse of the apostrophe causes me great pain. [Wink]

For an income I design and maintain websites; for fun, I'm writing a novel. I participate in, coach, and watch sports constantly--most notably football, soccer, hockey and volleyball.

If my house was on fire, but one of the three Lord of the Rings movies was on, I'd probably stay on the couch. (Actually, the scale in the bathroom informs me I spend too much time on the couch as it is.)

For the last year my wife has been battling breast cancer, and here's my wish for all of you that you never have to deal with that (or anything like it). She's cancer-free at the moment, which is great, but between chemotherapy, radical surgery, radiation treatments and all, she's taken a battering. She's taking the summer off from work, and hopefully that will help.

My political leanings are an inconsistent mishmash; I'm pro-environment, anti-corporation, pro-life, pro-military and pro-affirmative action. I don't drink, don't smoke, don't do drugs, don't gamble (unless you count fantasy football and NCAA tournament pools) and I think prostitution probably should be legalized but never will be. The notion of Gay marriage doesn't bother me in the least. I married into a Catholic family after being born Lutheran, but I'm convinced that organized religion is a load of bull-stuff that only exists to control the unwashed masses and maintain social order--which is useful, in a way.

I'm stymied by why, if we invaded both Afghanistan and Iraq for the noblest of reasons (cough), we haven't done jack with North Korea, unless the answer is that (a) they don't have oil and (b) they'll nuke Seoul if we try. I do believe, however, that since we decided to invade Iraq, we need to stay there until the job is finished (and not a moment longer).

I'm ambivalent on Bush and fairly fond of Colin Powell but terrified of Cheney, Ashcroft and Rumsfeld. I'm saddened that John Kerry's political platform is essentially "Vote For Me Because I'm Not George Bush" but I won't be voting Cheney back in, so there you have it.

Well, that was awfully long-winded, but now you know practically everything about me of interest.
Posted by Ivan (Member # 1467) on :
Glad to have you here, whirlwind!

I've got a fantasy football question if you don't mind:

My friends and I are starting a league for the fall (always looking for dedicated managers if you'd be interested ^^), and we're were thinking about using individual defensive players rather than an entire team's defense. Now, none of us have ever done this, so we're not exactly sure what the scoring should be, how many players we should have starting, etc. If you've got any experience with that (or even general opinions), it would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks much and welcome to the board!

Posted by nyani (Member # 1828) on :
I still can't tell if the whole regurgitative thing is meant to be an insult or not. My brother always told me I was a machine, and it's not so; I'm human here! Then again I am all for class participation and I've never done cram groups in my life, never studied for SATs, ACTs and all that nonsense. Never studied period, I'd just hear things or read it, and know it. I used to think that if I didn't get something right away, I couldn't get it at all. Luckily, since then I've learned how to bridge the learning curve for the most part.

The way I see it, my brain can only hold so much. So I only bother to remember cold hard basic facts. Then, whenever I need an answer or a concept that is not a simple fact, I use the powers of reason and logic to connect these facts and redraw whatever conclusion I extracted them from, or even a new one. Alternately, I can often see what is missing from an explanation. Languages can quickly be converted to reflex memory and put out of the way, as they are basically all fact. If I decide something I know is unnecessary, or I can quickly relearn it later, I forget it. This way my head doesn't get too waterlogged with unecessary or redundant info, though often multiple facts can point me to the same conclusion. My *ignorance* is due to a lack of facts, things like: who is Scheherezade,or who is Saladin, or what is the capital of Argentina-- parts of my picture that aren't there. And sometimes I just put the facts together all wrong.

So, Warsaw, I work practically the opposite way from you, but with the same effect. I do better on the final exams because by then I know more components of the equation.
Posted by RickyB (Member # 1464) on :
Ivan, I've enver played with individual defensemen, but here's what I can figure offhand:

sack: 1 pt
INT: 2 pts
Fumble caused: 1 pt
Fumble recovery: 2 pts
TD: 6 pts
10 tckls: 1 pt

Why aren't we talking about fantasy in the sports forum? That'd be away to wake it up! BTW, if you need another manager, lemme know. What platform do you guys use? My gang uses sportsline. we're pretty happy.
Posted by RickyB (Member # 1464) on :
Oh, pass defensed should probably rate a point too. Did I leave anything out?
Posted by Ivan (Member # 1467) on :
Well, yahoo counts "blocked kicks" as a category, and they differentiate between assisted tackels and solo tackels... but I'm going to go ahead and start a thread in the sports forum. Please join in over there! [Big Grin]
Posted by OrneryMod (Member # 977) on :
Actually guys, moving this to the sports forum would not be a bad idea.

I am not going to force you, but if you two, and whoever else is interested, would move it over there that would be great.


Posted by Ed Prather (Member # 1930) on :
OK, I'm a new face (name) here, and as such I'll try to bring this thread back in line -- though I am commish of a fantasy football league who uses defensive players, has a rookie draft, and permits some keepers as well. IT's been fun.

Oh yeah, back on target...

29 year old married male who is in the process of moving to Maryland from northeastern Ohio due to employment.

As far as politics, I'm mainly conservative but I will play devil's advocate if it furthers a discussion.

Unlike some, I have no problems engaging in the same discussion a thousand times - as long as it is with at least 999 different people. Without such discussion I might never grow. It serves me quite well to actually SEE my opinions alter - if not outright change - over the course of time due to experience and exchange.

That's not to say I'm not steadfast in my thoughts and opinions, but I've found that opinions supported on evidence as to why it is a 'logical' stance appeal to me far more than the old 'because I like it' routine. As such when presented with evidence and example, I will weight it against my current 'knowledgebase' and determine a course (agree and possibly change my outlook, or disagree and present my evidence, or perhaps inquire for more if soemthing is inconclusive).

I look forward to discussing anything and everything with you all, and although I feel most of us mean well, at any point even the most innocuous topic or statement can be misread or 'typed in haste'. I will try to keep it above board rightly proper, and I hope everyone else will extend to me the same courtesy if my comments come off as being corrosive.

As many others I don't tend to use spell check, though it might be considered poor form these days, and it seems that historically I often tend to hit the spacebar onel ettert ool ate.
Posted by Rallan (Member # 1936) on :
Right, I'm gonna do something nuts and actually use this thread for it's intended purpose: introducing yours truly.

So ah, hi. I'm Robert Allan, and I haven't touched a drink in... no wait, wrong introduction.

I'm from the Blue Mountains, New South Wales, Australia. I'm 25 and have no particularly outstanding academic achievements, although in between travelling this wide brown land of mine I occasionally settle down long enough to knock down another semester of a librarian course I'm doing.

Politically I'm one of those dang liberal socialists. I'm for greater government control of the economy to protect the interests of both the market and the people, and believe that the government has a responsibility to provide a fairly wide range of basic services to a reasonable standard. I'm for more liberal drug laws and the dissemination of accurate medical advice to drug users, the legalisation and regulation of prostitution, the abolition of any and all laws concerning what consenting adults can do in bed, the legal right of adults to read and view whatever they damn well feel like as long as nobody's rights were violated in the making of the material being viewed, and various other annoyingly out-there liberal perspectives.

Morally I think it's safe to say that sooner or later someone on the forum will just say I've got none [Smile] . But basically I'm of the opinion that we all have a moral obligation to help our fellow man and avoid benefiting at his expense, to take decisions which make people happy rather than miserable, and to generally have as good a time as possible as long as you're not screwing anyone over.

On the religious front there's not much to say. I'm agnostic, which means I've got an automatic copout on any and all religious arguments, and I fully intend to use it regularly.

Finally when it comes to personal interests I enjoy reading sf as long as it's got a message, and pre-20th century erotica as long as it's got no message whatsoever (I particularly recommend John Cleland's "Fanny Hill" for having the earliest BDSM scene I've managed to find that actually portrays that sort of thing in a positive light). I travel around Australia a lot, get up to no good, and occasionally make stupid mistakes like accidentally outing myself as a bi in small country towns. And when I'm not doing that I'm a massive roleplaying nerd from way back.

Oh and if he's still around, a big hola to Tom Davidson from the GE&R forum.
Posted by thegreatgrundle (Member # 1921) on :
Hello all. Name's John Gerlach. I'm a 19 year old student at Penn, born and raised in the suburbs of Philly.

I've been a big fan of OSC ever since reading Ender's Game some 5 years ago. I've been reading his reviews on Hatrack for years, and some of his World Watch essays whenever the titles interested me.

I have a very Darwinian outlook on the world. I'm a fan of people who accept responsibility for their own actions and situation in life, and don't believe the government should waste too much of my tax dollars (I have a summer job, so yes, I am paying taxes) on social programs. IOW, go Republicans!

Morally, I hold a strange bunch of contradictory values that rarely make any sense to me, so what's the point in trying to explain them to anyone else?

Anyway, I'll mostly be hanging around the Sports forum, so everyone come and join the fun over there.
Posted by WarrsawPact (Member # 1275) on :
I think it's about time we did a poll to see what the average age of an Ornerian is.
Posted by WarrsawPact (Member # 1275) on :
and don't believe the government should waste too much of my tax dollars (I have a summer job, so yes, I am paying taxes) on social programs. IOW, go Republicans!

Don't worry folks, he's talknig about old Republicans, not the new "spend as you please" kind.
Posted by Rallan (Member # 1936) on :
Yeah I kinda picked up on that one WP. Although it could be argued in the defense of the Republican Party that even though they're spending taxpayers' money like never before, at least they're not spending it on improving society.

Posted by WarrsawPact (Member # 1275) on :
That's a pretty left-handed "defense."
Posted by kwbj (Member # 1934) on :
Hello, forum members! My name is Kevin Jackson. I am 23, and I live in Calgary, Alberta, Canada. I am fiscally liberal and socially conservative. I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I have read OSC since I was young, and I enjoy both of his columns, because they always get me fired up (whether I agree or not!). I am a part time student/salesperson. And . . . umm . . . I like classical music and long walks on the beach . . . right.

I look forward to debating with y'all!

Posted by Rallan (Member # 1936) on :
I vote for left-wing parties and I'm bi. You expected a good defense of the Republican party from me? [Smile]
Posted by thegreatgrundle (Member # 1921) on :
The Republicans may have gone astray recently, but they're still the best we've got. You still have to hold on to that slim hope that they'll come around.
Posted by Rallan (Member # 1936) on :
Bah, they won't come around. They (and the Democrats for that matter) have become victims of the two-party system, and now rely on pandering to the masses rather than sticking to an ideology.
Posted by thegreatgrundle (Member # 1921) on :
Yeah, I know. I'm a hopeless dreamer [Smile]
Posted by TheQuietPunk (Member # 1942) on :
My name is Bradley Cummings. I am new to the forum as of today. I am 18 years old and newly graduated from high school which means no one will listen to what I say. Oh well. I live for controversy so you may find me saying the things that will make blood pressure rise. I mean most everything I say, I won't disagree for a reaction only. I want to be writer or may already be one. And no Orson Scott Card is not my inspiration, he may be amazing but he is not my inspiration. I also dont really like writing Sci-Fi or Fantasy. Thats me.
Posted by Zyne (Member # 117) on :
I am 18 years old and newly graduated from high school which means no one will listen to what I say.
As if we would have ever know had you not told us.
Posted by Rallan (Member # 1936) on :
" I am 18 years old and newly graduated from high school which means no one will listen to what I say. "

Just think of it as valuable practice for the first full-time job you get after school.
Posted by TheQuietPunk (Member # 1942) on :
"Just think of it as valuable practice for the first full-time job you get after school. "

Ha Ha, good point.
Posted by Rubble (Member # 1945) on :
Hello All,

My name is Kelly Kleifges. I'm a 35 year old USAF fighter pilot currently stationed in the UK. I've been posting at Hatrack for about 3 months and thought I'd check out the other side.
Posted by FIJC (Member # 1092) on :
"Just think of it as valuable practice for the first full-time job you get after school."
I think that totally depends on where you decide to work after college, and what you're doing.
Posted by thegreatgrundle (Member # 1921) on :
" I am 18 years old and newly graduated from high school which means no one will listen to what I say. "

Just think of it as valuable practice for the first full-time job you get after school.

Don't listen to these old fogies. They're just jealous of us "kids" [Smile]
Posted by WarrsawPact (Member # 1275) on :
I came here when I was 18 and just graduated from high school.
Now I'm 19 and entering my second year of college.
There's more young'uns here than you'd think.

Make your argument well and your age doesn't matter one iota.

And Rubble - Welcome. Interesting forum name for a fighter pilot, sounds more like a bomber name.

[ July 29, 2004, 02:28 PM: Message edited by: WarrsawPact ]
Posted by Rubble (Member # 1945) on :
Personal appearance not effect. As in Barney Rubble.
Posted by WarrsawPact (Member # 1275) on :
"Barney. Barney Rubble. TROUBLE!"

A cookie to anyone who knows what movie that was from...

[ July 29, 2004, 03:13 PM: Message edited by: WarrsawPact ]
Posted by kelcimer (Member # 1221) on :
Ocean's 11.

Can I have some milk with that?
Posted by WarrsawPact (Member # 1275) on :
Yes, yes you can. Whole milk? 2%? 1%? Skim?

And this is the 400th post in this thread.
Posted by kelcimer (Member # 1221) on :

Hey, I stand to have more milk then cookie, unless this is one of those frickin' awesome big ass cookies. Please tell me it's one of those. [Big Grin]
Posted by Weston MuadDib (Member # 1952) on :
I am a native Texan, lived their all 19 years of my life. Accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior as a young child of 8 and was baptized a few years later. I currently attend a Non-denominational Charismatic church.

I am attending Texas A&M University to get my Chemical Engineering Degree. But the most important thing is that I am the proudest member of the Fightin' Texas Aggie Class of 2008. AAAA!

I am as close you can get to an idealist while still being a sarcastic know-it-all. I acquired all my knowledge from my father and the books he introduced me to.

Books from authors like C.S. Lewis, J.R.R. Tolkien, Isaac Asimov, and others like John Grisham, Michael Crichton. Although it was one of my best friend that intoduced me to my favorite author Orson Scott Card.

I have a eclectic music preference. Excluding all forms of country music, except Friends in Low Places, and all forms of modern opera/classical music. I have such an eclectic style that I enjoy mainsteam Christian music.

I like most every movie I see. However, my favorites come from fiction books including sci-fi and fantacy adaptations.

I use all my book, TV, and Internet knowledge to do a little work as possible while wasting most of my time doing nothing. This completes my middle class, white, male, persona.

[ July 31, 2004, 12:58 PM: Message edited by: Weston MuadDib ]
Posted by Srol (Member # 1954) on :
Well after lurking here for about a year, I finally went through with it and signed up for an account. How about that.

I'm a 20 year-old college student. During the school year I attend LaSalle University in Philadelphia where I am currently making progress towards a Communication major and an English minor. When I'm not in Philadelphia, I'm at my family's home on Long Island in New York.

Not much exciting about me. Basic Irish-Italian middle-class suburban background for me.

As far as interests goes, I definately am a voracious reader. When I was younger I would read any book with a spaceship on the cover, but as I get older, I find myself enjoying fantasy novels, particularely contemporary fantasy novels much more. As for most science-fiction and fantasy fans who have found their way to this forum, my favorite author is Orson Scott Card, however I've always been a big fan of authors like Asimov and Clarke, and I've recently been reading as much of newer author Kelly Armstrong as I can. I justt recently started reading comics as well, with the Astonishing X-Men by Joss Whedon and J.M. Straczynski's non-spiderman related titles as well(Rising Stars, Supreme Power, Midnight Nation).

My music tastes are all over the map. I basically divide music into two categories, music I like and music I dislike. The reason being that I can never say I like all songs in a genre or dislike all songs in a genre, because the second I do that, I find an exception to that rule. Except for rap. I can't say I've found a rap song I like yet. My favorite band out there is Nickel Creek. They're a bit hard to classify, as they started out as a bluegrass band and have since become so much more. I like to think of them as "new acoustic".

As you probably guessed from my ethnicity, yes I am Catholic, in fact I workeds as a Sacristan at my local parish for two years. I consider myself to be a "progressive" in terms of catholicism. I think certain aspects of the Church need to be re-visitted and re-thought through with a modern perspective, but I don't want any radical damaging action. I basically consider Vatican II to be one of the best things that ever happened to the Church and I get scared when the cardinals in Rome try and roll back some of those reforms.

As far as where I stand politically, I never really know where I stand. My views always wind up splattering me all over the politican map so no matter which party or candidate I choose to support, I always end up compromising a bit of myself. THe greatest conflict has always been anti-death penalty versus pro-life. I can be fairly libertarian on some issues, because I've never liked the government poking its nose too much in people's business, but at the same time I think that a lot of government controls are neccessarry.

Basically, I like to just listen to everything and keep an open mind without marrying myself too much to any one particular affiliation(registerred independent).

Anyway, that's about it from me.
Posted by WarrsawPact (Member # 1275) on :
We're getting really good at attracting the 18-21 crowd here.
Posted by oicnun (Member # 1957) on :
Hi, everybody.

I'm a 28 year-old from Barcelona (Spain). So, the first thing i'd like to do is apologize for all the mistakes that i'm going to make when writing my posts. Sorry for that, folks. :-) I discovered Ornery while following Mr. Card opinions on the internet, and not being too much of a fan of internet forums, i found this one worth reading. Interesting people sharing thoughts amd becoming richer with every post.So after being a reader for a year, i decided to register. I don't expect myself to be much of a contributor since a great part of the topics are related to your contry politics and i don't know too much about that, but i find interesting the possibility of getting to know the american people a little better, given the fact that here in Europe, there is a stereotyped vision of the people in the US.

About me: I'm really dissapointed about politics in general, but especially in my country. I think we, people, are not aware of the things that really matter, but that's horribly true when applied to the politicians (at least in Spain). Religion... well, i know i believe, but i'm trying to figure out what. I suppose it's a time of crisis for me (i wonder if this is the correct way of saying it).
Posted by WarrsawPact (Member # 1275) on :
Trut me, a lot of other people are particularly disappointed in Spain's politics too.
Posted by MatthewofTheB (Member # 1880) on :
my name is matthew
i am 22
i read a good deal
i practice martial arts
i have a lovely girlfriend
my name means gift of god
i dont believe in a god yet i try to be a gift
i am constantly looking out the window
i mean that in many ways
Posted by javelin (Member # 1284) on :
Okay, I'll give this a go -

I'm a thirty year old northwest USA native living in the Portland, OR area. I'm currently working as a programmer/analyst, and I own two side businesses in the information technology industry. I'm fiscally conservative and socially libertarian, and I'm registered as a Republican. I tend to find myself disagreeing with many of the policies of various political animals, and agreeing with others. My vote usually goes to the politician that I agree with the most, and disagree with the least, which makes me a bit unhappy, 'cause who wants to vote for the lesser of two evils?

I attempt to be open and willing to listen, ESPECIALLY when I disagree with people. I prefer to discuss relevant and researched facts, and may sometimes ask you to back up a statement with some sources. I'd be glad to be called to task if I don't live up to this, so feel free to let me know. My primary focus on this forum has been to try to understand what people's positions are and why, and I find this forum to be an excellent one, with many reasonable people.

Anyway, that's enough for now, I'll leave you with a quote I try to live by:

"If anyone can show me, and prove to me, that I am wrong in thought or deed, I will gladly change." - Marcus Aurelius

Posted by Another Person (Member # 1867) on :
I'm a 16 year old, white male who lives in Seattle, Washington. I like Snowboarding, video games, sleeping, and eating.
Posted by theyoungamerican (Member # 1967) on :
Well im most likely the youngest and newest person to these forums, but I hope that before too long, many of you will know me.

I'm 14, live in Houston, Texas and I am a hardcore Republican. When I do get to college I will pursue politics. I love political arguements, girls, and basketball.

As you will all see soon enough, I'm a mean Republican and wont take any bullsh1t from Liberal Democrats. I'm cocky, and love pissing off Democrats with facts, not lies, which is the only things Democrats possess. I'm well informed on political issues, by reading the things on this website,, Freedom Club Report, Imprimis magazine, and my dad and his friends.

I love Orson Scott Card and his books, and now his political views. Hope everyone gets to know me and I hope you will read the things I say and not think of me as a 14 year old kid, but as an equal.

Heres to good, un-clean arguements.

Posted by FIJC (Member # 1092) on :
"As you will all see soon enough, I'm a mean Republican and wont take any bullsh1t from Liberal Democrats. I'm cocky, and love pissing off Democrats with facts, not lies, which is the only things Democrats possess[...]Heres to good, un-clean arguements."
Have you read the mission statement of Ornery?
Posted by Ron (Member # 1698) on :
If your well informed you would know that democrats also have their facts. Its a question of interpeting those facts though.

My father makes sure I get the Nation and Mother Jones along with everything else that I read. Often both sides use the same facts but interpet them differently. The question is whether or not you can show your interpetation to be the correct one.

For instance. Unemployment is at 5.5% (more or less). If your a republican, thats good. If your a democrat, thats bad. However the democrat will have to explain why 5.6% on Clintons election eve was fine. Thats the essence of some of the debates we have here.
Posted by Zyne (Member # 117) on :
Heyya Caleb--

I love political arguements, girls, and basketball.
Well, as the only thing teeny bopper grrls love more than sports stats is politio stats, I'm sure we'll be seeing alot of you.

[Smile] Welcome to the forum.
Posted by Grant (Member # 1925) on :
This is just as bad as in-processing.... here we go.....

Name: It will be at the bottom of the post next to my credit card number

Age: 28

Sex: As much as I can get (Male)

Race: White (I think) (Polish/Mexican/Texan/Indian, you tell me) (if some of my ancestors stole gunpowder from the chinese and subjugated and murdered your ancestors, I weep for you, better luck next universe)

Marital Status: Single

SSN: Look next to the credit card number

Place of Birth: North Texas (that's right, I'm a Texan by birth, my state can kick your state's butt, I weep for you)

Home of Record: Central Louisiana (it is so friggin humid here, and the politicians are in a league of their own)

Religon: Catholic (that's right, I'm Catholic, and my uncle is a Priest, and he doesn't molest children, and he can say mass in 15 minutes) but I'm not a really good one (I should go to church more often)

Education: DOD (department of defense) schools for elementary. Catholic schools for secondary and high school. I fear nuns to this day. BA in History from a small Baptist controlled university in the south. I've maintained a perfect 2.0 GPA throughout HS and college. I call it "economy of effort in education".

Grandparents: One grandpa was a bombadier on B-17s over Europe. He pulled the trigger on alot of people but he didn't like it. He became an oil driller and died over his breakfast. Other grandpa was infantry in France and Germany. His nickname was "Easy". He became a country road worker. He built his home, the only brick house in town, from bricks he stole from the county. He died of a leg infection. After they cut off his leg, he told my mother "pick up my leg and let's go home". Both my grandmas were homemakers.

Parents: My dad was in the Airforce. He served three tours in Vietnam/Cambodia/Laos. He was usually spit on when he came home. The last time they flew him into San Francisco they had to let the servicemembers out on the runway and drive them from the airport, the protesters were waiting and were attacking people getting off the plane. He stayed in the airforce and retired at the end of the cold war. He went into the oil drilling business with his brothers. He now investigates for the state. My mom has a masters degree in library science. She's had arthritis since she was 12. She can't move her back or neck. And she's tough as nails.

(in case you think I'm from a great military tradition, my great grandfathers were all draft dogers during WWI)

Work Experience: Weeder (golf course), janitor/washer (Dr. Pepper Plant), Dishwasher (Mel's Diner), National Guardsman, US Army Officer, substitute teacher.

I make judgements with: my brain (I hate people who tell me that I can't judge them, I already have), restrained by my heart. A line I remember from an creed I learned....

"give me the courage and gallantry in battle to win, and the judgement and compassion to lead"

I don't trust people who think with just their hearts or just their brains or just their testicles or just their butts. You need them all.

Politics: Detestable. I detest the far left for being disloyal pinko commie scum. They'll do anything for a vote. They constantly want to take my money and give it to somebody else. They believe they can solve poverty and war and greed and education and racism with rainbows, smiles, and more tax money. They spit on my pop coming back from the nam. They all work in your local public school system and they couldn't manage a flock of sheep much less a classroom. I detest the far right for consantly pushing their faith on me and for their annoying habbit of always thinking that they're right. They don't want me to drink beer in their county. They don't want me to dance. They think America is doomed like Sodom and Gammorah. They look forward to the rapture. Every decision they make is from a book or a clergyman. Tell them you've found Jesus and they'll let you out of jail early.

Reagan: My third grandpa. He always had a jelly bean and a smile for me. He bombed Libya and didn't fart around with the sovs.

Bush Sr: Sly, smart, tricky. Like Ike. He wasn't a great politician but he could run a war, handle the russians. The smartest/wisest president.

Clinton: A nice guy. The president I'd most like to have a beer with. Charming, likable, magnetic. He reflects the idea that so many Americans just want to be loved. Willie just wanted to be loved and love you back.

Dole: Nice guy. Probably the most honest and forthright politician. Fair, polite, gracious. What ever made the republicans think he could win?

Gore: Psycho.

Bush Jr: Jeez. In all fairness he's had a tougher time then the other guys, and America isn't like it was in the 1940s or 1860s. The most hated man in the world. Would you like his job? Could you make everybody happy? The guy may not be the cream of the crop, but he doesn't deserve to be breathed in the same sentance as Hitler or Stalin. In the end the worst republican president since nixon, despite all his good points.

Kerry: Hey, is that him spitting on my dad in that video? Hey, lets cut military spending, and chop up the CIA while we're at it. We don't need a strong intelligence agency do we? Don't need a strong military anymore since the soviets are gone right? Oh wait, that was all BEFORE he decided to run for president. The worst guy the Democrats could have picked. What were you pinko commie treehuggers thinking? Even most conservatives don't love Bush, you could have won this one hands down.
Posted by KidA (Member # 1499) on :
I've been away for a while, but now I'm back, at least for now. I realize I've done a lot of posting here, without introducing myself formally…how rude of me. So here goes.

I'm 31, married, and I live in Brooklyn, NYC. I grew up in Massachusetts, and have lived in California, upstate New York, Georgia (I have a lot of family there, and consider myself "half-Southern") and (for a school-year) Italy. I've traveled through bits of Europe, including an extended stay in Germany. More recently, I've been to Japan, where my wife is from. I've just completed an M.A. in English.

My day job (for money): I help run a subscription office for a Broadway theater.

My night job (for love): I'm a writer. I do a number of things, including music reviews and interviews with "indie" rock bands, but my main calling is Fantasy/SF, along with other oddities. I have been published, but I'm not even remotely famous - I've only published two short-stories so far (though one did appear in Ellery Queen, so if there are any mystery fans out there we may have met before in some dark, secluded corner of the night). If you see me here on this forum, it probably means I have writer's block.

Politics: Left-wing by default. I.e., I am anti-right wing, anti-moderate, and anti- fuzzy, vegetarian, ultra-earthy liberalism.

I'm pro-human, pro-science, pro-reason, and pro-liberty. I'm anti-fear, anti-war, anti-mysticism. I think public policy should be guided by scientific principles, fearless empiricism, and not by political ideology.

I was raised without religion, am an atheist, and ever since reading Carl Sagan at age 13 I've seen scientists and skeptics as the heroes of the world. My literary and philosophical heroes: Bertrand Russell, Harlan Ellison, James Baldwin, Richard Wright, Isaac Asimov, George Orwell, John Stuart Mill, Martin Gardner, James Randi, Ludwig Wittgenstein, Ray Bradbury, Plato, Feuerbach, William James, Haruki Murakami, Arthur C. Clarke, Herman Melville…to name a few. I enjoy and deeply admire Ayn Rand, even though I believe she was mentally ill.

A quick summary of my political outlook: It is the role of government (sometimes) to protect standards of ETHICAL behavior, not MORALITY. The former refers to ways in which people interact with one another, whereas the latter is a matter of personal conscience. The former is a matter of social contract (i.e. what we all implicitly agree to as fair and decent by virtue of our participation in society), the latter is a matter of how well you sleep at night. To wit: we throw people in jail for ACTUALLY killing someone (ethics), not for wanting to, or simply believing that it is o.k. to do so (morality).

I do not believe that any government or law-making body has any business whatsoever "upholding morality." I do not care that my neighbor is moral or immoral - in fact, the notion is meaningless to me. I care only that they do no harm to others. The government is not a mommy or a daddy. The president can do whatever he/she wants with his/her intern, so long as they uphold the constitution. Most politicians are whores. They lack imagination and insight, and they are the last people anyone should emulate as a moral guide. They are always worthy targets of ridicule - even the halfway good ones.

I believe that any adult should be able to marry any number of any other consenting adults. I become ill when people say that marriage is the "basis of civilization." Bull. Agriculture is the basis of civilization. After the first seeds were sown thousands of years ago, there arose countless civilizations, some thriving for aeons, with views on marriage and sexuality we would find repugnant and incomprehensible.

I have nothing against Christians. My best friend in high school was an Evangelical. I believe prayer should be allowed in public school, so long as it's not mandatory. I think Muslim girls in France should wear veils to school if they want to. I detest liberals who believe that religion cannot be discussed in public. There should be more real religion on TV. I like the fact that Bush talks about God (his speech following the Space-Shuttle Columbia blow-up was beautiful, and moved me to tears), although I wish he understood better the true implications of his beliefs. I know that religious feelings/experiences are very deeply held, are very personal, and I for one would like to see more people on the Left take this seriously, and to stop viewing religious convictions as something to be ridiculed. I think religion is important, but it is not for everyone. A free society will always be a bag of mixed nuts…people will always choose very different paths from one another and we have to accept this.

I wish every Christian all the happiness and prosperity that they can muster…ON THEIR OWN. The government should not give them a blessed farthing for promoting "faith."

Finally, as a humanist, I do not believe that an American life is one iota more or less valuable than the life of any other human being on earth. Just because our values are "superior" doesn't mean our citizens are. I do not recognize any special allegiance to this country when it fails to uphold humanistic values.

On a last note…I'd like to let everyone here know (even Pete at Home, who hates me) how much I respect you. I bear no animosity towards anyone. I disagree all the time, and I sometimes really seem to make a few of you angry. I don’t mean to. I think you're all great. If I say "you're deluded," "you're a facist," etc. at some point…it's 'cause I grew up near Boston and we use bitterness and sarcasm to be friendly. It's all we have! Don't take it personally.

As a token of good-will to the more God-fearing amongst you, and as per a request made not long ago, I promise not to take the Lord's name in vain. M'kay?
Posted by The neighborhood smartass (Member # 1958) on :
I'm 16, male, and from New Orleans. I'm pretty smart and get around a 4.0 GPA and I go to a Catholic school so a 4.0 actually means I learned something. I'm really into politics(if I wasn't then I wouldn't be here). I play guitar and listen to everything from U2 to Pantera. I'm not a fan of rap and r+b. (where is the blues in rythym and blues nowadays?) I'm a Catholic and a die-hard Republican.

Now I may not know as much as they rest of ya'll politically but that's one of the reasons I came here. To argue and learn. Please treat me as a less informed equal. (ya'll = you+all, basically means you)

Grant- were kinda similar. We both live in Louisiana and I've got relatives in Texas. I don't like Texas though because Texans are all so high on themselves and my relatives just piss me off. But I like you (as I like all funny people). Also, all your butt-kickin Texas buddies should be envious and want to come down here every year for Mardi-Gras on Bourbon!
Posted by WarrsawPact (Member # 1275) on :
What is it with the Catholic conservatives flocking to this site?
Join the club.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 99) on :
"Now I may not know as much as they rest of ya'll politically..."

Well, that goes without saying. You're a die-hard Republican. [Wink] j/k
Posted by RickyB (Member # 1464) on :
Howdy smartass. AS for y'all - A skim of my posts will show that one can bea Jew from Brooklyn (currently in Israel) and still be deeply familiar with that inidspensible southernism. [Smile]

[Big Grin] @ Tom

[ August 23, 2004, 08:12 PM: Message edited by: RickyB ]
Posted by The neighborhood smartass (Member # 1958) on :
Yo, warsaw. I am very sorry for posting a new "Iraq" topic. I almost cried when I realized how out-of-date I had been. [Razz]

and no I won't change my name

If you know what ya'll means, how about y'at, as in where y'at. My friend had to play baseball in Alabama once and his coached called a restaraunt. He asked,"Where y'at" and the employees at the restaraunt were confused for a good ten minutes.
Posted by WarrsawPact (Member # 1275) on :
Posted by gruntar (Member # 1986) on :
Been reading threads here since April but I don't post much.
I'm a 32 year old married man, father of 2, B.A. in Psychology with a Biology minor from Cal State. I work for a county as an employment counselor for people with disabilities to pay off my loans so I can go back to school for my PhD in experimental neuroscience.
I was raised a reformed Jew, but am now a doubting agnostic.
I do not subscribe to any particular political party line, I prefer to use analysis of arguments to judge their merit.
Some of my favorite writers/thinkers are Stephen Gould, Stephen Pinker, Napoleon Chagnon, Machiavelli, Locke, Nietzche, Darwin, and I also enjoy reading peer reviewed literature in experimental psychology when I have time and access to Elsevier online.
As far as fiction I like OSC, Stephen King, Frank Herbert, J.R.R. Tolkien, Asimov, Heinlein, and a hell of a lot of guys whose names I can't remember offhand.
I'm pro-choice, I think Kevorkian got a bum rap, pro-death penalty as long as they harvest the bastard's organs first, pro-guns, pro-decriminalization (not legalization) of pot although I haven't smoked the stuff in years. I believe others are entitled to their political and religious beliefs, but I despise categorically anyone who would use legislation to force their code of conduct on me.
Oh yeah, I like to argue. If I kick one of your sacred cows in a post it ain't personal, all in a good day's fun. Nice to meet ya'll finally [Smile] .
Posted by Brucie (Member # 1991) on :
I have just discovered this site and forum. What fun. I cant wait to read it all.
I am a native Northern Californian displaced in Utah where I have lived for 28 years with my husband ( a college Track Coach ) and my fabulous 5 children and now 5 grandchildren. I love history, the beach, politics, anything about ALaska. We own a fly fishing lodge in SE Alaska where we spend our summers ( so fanatastic) I am a conservative but a non conformist. Pro Life, Pro marriage, pro Family, Pro God, Pro capitalisim, Pro America. But I am a little anti - establishment and anti authority ( a bit over the hill hippy ) when it comes to our over burden of government programs and the police state. I am a MOM first and I love watching high school basketball and my college boys pole vault. I love sports....a football maniac. And my claim to fame in the sports community is that I was kicked out of a high school varsity game for yelling at the Ref's. ( and I didnt even use profanity ! ) Professionaly, I write business plans and help people turn their business's around from failure to profits. Life is good and I believe we do live in the greatest democracy in the world with an insprired constitution. But I also believe we are under attack from within our own borders and in growing danger. Your Friend, Brucie

[ August 26, 2004, 12:05 PM: Message edited by: Brucie ]
Posted by Ivan (Member # 1467) on :
But I also believe we are under attack from within our own borders and in growing danger.
Out of curiosity, from who, exactly?
Posted by WarrsawPact (Member # 1275) on :
I am a conservative but a non conformist. Pro Life, Pro marriage, pro Family, Pro God, Pro capitalisim, Pro America.
So that's what a conservative nonconformist looks like today, huh?
Posted by Enfield303 (Member # 1996) on :
Hello everyone. I have been checking this site quite faithfully for 4 months now and have decided it's now time to add my 10 cents worth(ain't inflation grand?). I like German cars, German guns, Irish beer, and Scotch whiskey. I am mostly conservative in my political views, but I always enjoy a brisk exchange of ideas. I have also been told that if it were not for sarcasm, I would not have a sense of humor, so preemptive apologies to anyone with thin skin. I live in a Midwestern, Big 12 college town, where I sell used cars. Oh yeah, 26 years old, single and male.
Posted by kidzmom (Member # 2015) on :
O.k., here I go!
I'm a 40something, happily(usually <g>) married, mom of 6, nana of 2. I'm a Christian, and very active in my local church. I live in the country, and raise 4-legged kids (dairy goats) as well as the 2-legged variety; we also have 2 Great Pyrenees (dogs), 1 chicken (it's a long story), and x cats (the number varies with the season). I've been a home educator for over a decade. Before that, I did everything from waiting tables, to working as a groundskeeper, to singing in a couple of different bands, working sales & retail, insurance, teaching at several different levels (including a stint with Freshman English at Texas A&M), student counseling, phone interviewing...*breaks out in song* ..."and a partridge in a pear tree!" I have a B.A. in Anthropology, with strong minors in History and Theatre Arts, and nearly a second degree in English (in which I started working on my Master's degree). That last sentence is hopelessly tangled, and needs work, but it's late and I'm tired...
I am crazy in love with my husband, and consider it a blessing to be able to participate in my children's growth and learning--even on the days when the house is a wreck, no one is "getting" the latest math lesson, and juvenile hormones are flowing in rivers through every room in the house...there will be a time when I will miss all this (I keep repeating to myself).
I'm passionate about music; depending on my mood and activity, I may listen to traditional Scottish & Irish folk, classical, jazz, show tunes, retro rock, contemporary praise & worship, alternative...I DON'T like C & W (even though I was born in Nashville!). I sing (all the time), and pretend to play piano, guitar, bowed psaltery, lap harp, and am starting to fool around with a little accordian (yes, I mean an accordian that's small <g>).
I love to read, and to write. Romance novels are my guilty pleasure, although I read many different genres. I'm currently writing poetry, short stories, and have a couple of early outlines for longer works.
I'm conservative on most issues--pro-family, pro-life, pro-military, anti-gun control, conservative Christian. I usually (but not always) vote Republican, though many libertarian philosophies hold appeal--get the Government out of my life, and off of my kids! <g> On the other hand (besides having 5 fingers), I have friends who are Jewish, LDS, Pagan, agnostic..any and every ethnic group imaginable, gay and straight, liberal, moderate, Dem and Rep. I don't have to agree with someone to appreciate them as an individual, although I may tell them they're wrong! (politely, of course, lol. After all, I was raised to be a good Southern girl!)
I found this board via a link to one of OSC's essays, posted on one of the homeschooling forums I frequent. *Looks around cautiously* seems like a...nice...? group!
Posted by Rockeye (Member # 2018) on :
How timely, I just registered at Ornery tonight, and I'm already introducing myself.

I'm 41 y/o male living in Wisconsin. I'm a nurse at a Veterans Hospital and have been a nurse for about 12 years. Before that I was a paratrooper in the US Army's truly exciting 82nd Airborne Division. My ability to communicate in non-english languages is restricted to 1) beer please 2) where is the bathroom 3) you're pretty, 4) basic insults 5) numbers from one to ten. Its amazing just how much you can get done with that tiny bit of vocabulary.

I read a lot, web-surf a lot, play computer simulations, lift weights, play rugby, and pretend that someday I'm going to convert several piles of jeep parts into a real, live, running jeep. My most important pastime is helping to raise my four y/o daughter and attempting to be the kind of person that she imagines me to be.
I distrust the evangelical Christian wing of the Republican party as I distrust the Democratic worship of vapid Hollywood mores.

I own a variety of firearms and deeply distrust those who would deprive me of them. The only church I am to found in on Sunday is The Hallowed Grounds Of Mighty Lambeau Field. I've seen many odd things in my life and though I can be disgusted, disappointed, proud, or pleased I'm rarely surprised. Anyone who would like to know anything more specific just drop me a line.

Tim Deters
Posted by Aurelius (Member # 2021) on :
Just registered yesterday, so I guess I'll introduce myself.

I'm a 17 year old guy living in Oregon. I've been homeschooled all my life and yes I actually have freinds [Eek!] I'm a Catholic (glad to see there seems to be a young faction of them here :-) hey) and a strongly orthodox one. I belong to the Catholic Church because I agree with all of its teachings, and have a bone to pick with those who think infallible doctrine can be "rethought." I love Gregorian Chant, the Latin Mass, and all the smells and bells that go with it.

From the above, you can probably guess I'm pro-life. I'm also pro-gun, and pro-military, and squarely in the Bush camp.

I'm a hobby gaming and comic book geek, play PC games, and love literature, history, sci-fi, and fantasy. I'm interested in anime (the oh-so-rare kind that isn't brainless trash), and am an advanced martial artist in Shorkemjiu Kempo. When bored, I usually either scetch, or write (I've started several short-stories and novels, but never get around to finishing them.)

My favorite authors include: Tolkien, Frank Herbert, OSC, Jasper Fforde, and a ton of others I cant seem to recall

Favorite movies and TV shows include: Classic Star Wars, Spirited Away, Millenium Actress, Gladiator, Master and Commander, Band of Brothers, Smallville, The Matrix, and Empire of the Sun.

Worldview-wise, I could care less about what works, the only thing that matters is what's right; sucess or failure is irrelevent, your intentions are paramount. (on your deathbed, looking back on your life to find that you always did what worked aint gonna be very comforting.) That, in fact, pretty much sums up my philosophy, "Deathbed Morality." The point at which you're about to die is the only moment that actually matters, and your life should be lived with that in mind.

THat's about it. Hope I haven't sounded too preachy, and I looks forward to some great discussions. [Cool]
Posted by Jeckt (Member # 2023) on :
Hello. The people here show promise. Thought I would join, and maybe have an intellectual conversation. The humes i'm surrounded by day to day seem to lack the capability of fullfilling this need of mine.

Glad to be here.

Posted by Everard (Member # 104) on :
"The only church I am to found in on Sunday is The Hallowed Grounds Of Mighty Lambeau Field."

I've always suspected the Packers are a religion to those living in wisconsin [Smile]
Posted by knokname (Member # 1138) on :

I've been lurking for a long time but I thought I would give a quick intro. I came here through the way several people have, through reading OSC books (the Ender series) and then visiting

My favorite author would be Philip K. Dick with such novels as The Man in the High Castle, Solar Lottery, and the countless short stories. Movies that I enjoy would include but are not limited to: the Lord of the Ring trilogy, Matrix series, 12 Monkeys, Blade Runner, and Dune. Some of the other things I enjoy are anime, B5, computers, and the Simpsons.

I don't care much for partisanship and I’d like to think I’m an open minded person. I am for protecting the environment, and would like more research in to alternative energy sources.

Well, that’s a little about me.
Posted by MormonLes (Member # 2034) on :
Pre-geezer male Constitutionalist, Ayn Rand fan (though have come to my own religious convictions), and an ardent fan of OSC - both his books and his moral philosophy. A writer of sorts, but never published under my name. Twice divorced but the right woman has recently come along into my approaching old age [Wink] .

Very concerned with the directions taken by this nation's leaders (of both parties) over the last 90 years. Believe that we are on the brink of a major disillusionment about the FRB and its collection agency called the IRS.

Hope to join in some spirited discussion (spiritual or not!! [Big Grin] ) upon this Board. Respect OSC immensely and am brought here as an ornery american with no credentials or accomplishments to trouble any of you with. Let us pick up the words and enjoin! [Smile]
Posted by maniacal_engineer (Member # 116) on :
isn't that "lambert" field? as kerry called it recently (talk about pulling a quaylism the only thing worse would have been to talk about the "LA riders" at a rally in oakland)
Posted by baubin2 (Member # 2032) on :
Back to the original topic...

I'm a 18yr old freshman in aerospace engineering (eventually I'd like to work in the space program). Love to read, just joined a martial arts club, planning to study abroad for a while, and I spend a lot of my limited spare time either reading or cruising around CNN and forums like these. Being able to interact with people who actually know what they're talking about on whatever subjects you are interested in is a very enjoyable experience. I believe in God, but beyond that I don't really hold any cohesive religious doctrine; I'm taking a class on major world religions, but it's still in progress. Favorite authors OSC, Ayn Rand, Anne McCaffrey, Melanie Rawn, Tamora Pierce, Jean Auel, and others that I cannot remember off the top of my head. Played the flute for 9yrs, like to sing too but don't really have the chance to do it in a formal setting. Still have a tendancy to gripe about how useless a lot of my H.S. requirements were (especially 4 years of PE, who comes up with that stuff?), and am willing to offer what is most likely a completely unsubstantiated opinion on almost any subject. That should be enough info on me for you guys to be getting on with.

"Acquaintance - Someone you know well enough to borrow from, but not well enough to loan to"
Posted by kerinin (Member # 2009) on :
i'm a recent immigrant from hatrack, which seems to have a sizeable membership overlap with ornery. i'm a 24 year old architect in raleigh, north carolina.

i hate capitilizing except for emphasis and can't spell. i like to build furniture.

i've become horribly disenchanted with this country and am starting to look elsewhere. i'd like to believe in our society but it seems like the more i experience/learn/read, the worse things get.
Posted by Rosenkreutz (Member # 1760) on :
I must be one of the older people posting here. I'm 55, a registered nurse, and liberal to (possibly) the point of stupidity. I do try to be responsible, though.
When I was going to school for my RN degree (8-10 years ago)I tried study groups (though not as sophisticated as what Zyne was talking about) and found I was more comfortable studying by myself. And then when I got my first job as a nurse I REALLY started learning.
After that I got married, after moving from New England to Virginia to be with the love I met online, and now also have two step-daughters and a step-grandson going on nine months old. This is my first and only marriage, and it keeps my life very interesting.
I've been reading OSC for probably the last 10 years, and like his work a lot, though I frequently disagree with his essays.
Posted by Politius (Member # 1756) on :
Hey all,
I've been on this forum for a while, but i never got a change to introduce myself. I'm Anthony Hsieh: I live in the good old southern state of North Carolina (har-har), hardcore democrat (which we DO have logical debating skills) and i'm pursuing philosophy in school.
See you guys on the forums.

[ September 29, 2004, 12:24 PM: Message edited by: Politius ]
Posted by Redskullvw (Member # 188) on :
Its funny but reading this thread tends to place ornery membership into context, and tends to cool my jets when I become totally disenchanted with this site. Glad to meet all the new members.
Posted by baubin2 (Member # 2032) on :
It is the role of government (sometimes) to protect standards of ETHICAL behavior, not MORALITY. The former refers to ways in which people interact with one another, whereas the latter is a matter of personal conscience. The former is a matter of social contract (i.e. what we all implicitly agree to as fair and decent by virtue of our participation in society), the latter is a matter of how well you sleep at night. To wit: we throw people in jail for ACTUALLY killing someone (ethics), not for wanting to, or simply believing that it is o.k. to do so (morality).
Very true.
Posted by Zacharias Sigismund (Member # 2080) on :
I'm Zacharias and i'm from Luxembourg. I think Ornery is a nice site, with a good forum. I like talking about politics. Unfortunately I don't have too much time, between work and social obligations.
I'm also on the road a lot, but laptops are wonderful.
I've little time, and I want to use it well, so sometimes I might be curt. Sorry for that.

Posted by WarrsawPact (Member # 1275) on :

Finally another person not from France, Canada or the US.

Welcome to Ornery.
Posted by Everard (Member # 104) on :
We needed another european nation represented. I think we only had France and Great Britain, or am I mistaken in that?

Glad to have another nationality represented here [Smile]
Posted by WarrsawPact (Member # 1275) on :
We've got Brits here?
Posted by potemkyn (Member # 1040) on :
CardassianScot is from Britain.

Isn't MooseGirl from Germany? Does she post here anymore?
Posted by Phaedra (Member # 2082) on :
Hi all [Smile]
I am a 21 year old student at BYU-I. I am majoring in History Education.

I chose to join the forum because I like politics and other current issues related stuff. And I was just plain curious.
Posted by faithful_servant (Member # 2088) on :
I found this forum on a link from freeconservatives. In my younger, single days I was a big OSC fan (not much time any more for recreational reading) so this site caught my eye.
I'm an "evangelical, non-denominational, charismatic" christian. A fervent conservative. I've worked in the wood industry all my life, so you can guess what my opinion of tree-huggin' earth muffins is [Wink] . I pretty well informed on things and have an overly sensitive BS detector (factory spec from my father's side of the family). My personal life gets split between my wife and son, my church, my job, and chasing BMX racers and their parents. You will find that I am generally polite and respectful, but have little patience for those who intentionally operate w/o basic common-sense.
Posted by WarrsawPact (Member # 1275) on :
Youre gonig to find you disagree with a lot of people on what basic common sense entails.
Posted by cperry (Member # 1938) on :
Hello. I’m a 39 year old (not lying! – I won’t be 40 until March) English teacher who taught high school and middle school students for 16 years before leaving the classroom to work for the division (ostensibly “supervising” the K-12 English/Language Arts curriculum, but more often just putting out fires). I promise not to comment on grammatical errors b/c I’m a lazy proofreader myself—typos and errors galore, I’m sure. I aspire to write fiction (if I can ever make myself make the time), but I’ve published some nonfiction (mostly books and articles about teaching).

I’m the product of north-Florida (which is really south-Alabama or south-Georgia, for those of you who have never been to the panhandle) schooling, and I’m still trying to overcome the results. Having taught in central Florida, North Carolina, and now northern Virginia (for the last 9 years), I have learned that there is indeed a significant difference in the quality of public education across this nation – depth & exposure mostly.

I lean to the left on issues involving the environment and on some social issues but could probably be called a conservative overall (and trust me, I’m in the minority in public education! If you don’t think there’s a bias in public education, think again.).

Attend mass with my Catholic husband but am Protestant by upbringing (and by chance, I fully believe). Definitely spiritual, occasionally doubtful.

I am drawn to this group because I esteem civil discourse (please, let’s get the bullies off TV!) AND because I’m terrified that students today are not developing the capacity for critical thinking; this site is a great place to help thinkers weed out their mental fuzz. (I wish I were still teaching: I’d bring my students to this site and just let them lurk for awhile; I’m sure some would be drawn to the conversation and would benefit from it!) I’ve turned my husband on to the site as well, so we spend lots of time discussing what we’ve read.

Yes, I’m a fan of OSC (whom I met recently, which was a HUGE thrill!), plus Heinlein, Asimov, Larry Niven, Octavia Butler, Robert Jordan, Madeleine L’Engle, Ayn Rand, Jane Austen, Robert Penn Warren, Lee Smith, Walter Mosley, A.S. Byatt, Neil Gaiman, Emily Dickinson, Walt Whitman, yadda yadda (I’m an English teacher; this is normal!).

“A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesman and philosophers and divines. With consistency a great soul has simply nothing to do.”
~Ralph Waldo Emerson

(However, on this site, I should probably add that pandering to polls does not meet Emerson’s criteria for changing one’s mind. Nor does refusal to commit, nor playing both sides of the fence. He advocates being willing to change positions when the evidence compels a change.)
Posted by Delirium Tremens (Member # 1997) on :
We needed another european nation represented. I think we only had France and Great Britain, or am I mistaken in that?

Huh, I didn't introduce myself until now...

Age: early 30's
Nationality: Belgian
Sex: as much as possible (you guessed it, I'm male)
Married: yes
Children: looking forward to the birth of my 1st child.
Religion: looking for the truth
I like Ornery because: the discussions are quite civilized and I like to discuss with people who have different views than I have (always wanting to learn).

Hello world.

[ October 25, 2004, 12:03 PM: Message edited by: Delirium Tremens ]
Posted by Godot (Member # 2099) on :
* 44 years old,
* married for 9 years ( [Wink] ),
* one two year old son ( [Wink] [Wink] ),
* one more son due in early December ( [Wink] [Wink] [Wink] ),
* computer programmer since forever,
* home owner (sm 3 bd, 2 bath) painted cheery yellow,
* non-religious,
* politically populist

Don't always agree with the ideas or reasoning here, but I prefer it to those who are unengaged. And when you come right down to it, we are truly, all of us in every nation, in the same boat together. And there is much more that binds us together than keeps us apart, if we only look for it.

[ October 27, 2004, 01:07 PM: Message edited by: Godot ]
Posted by simplybiological (Member # 1344) on :
so delirium, is your name a reference to the belgian beer of same name, that comes in the wacky bottle with pink elephants on it? i kept wondering, but now that i see you're belgian, i figure chances are good and i must ask.
Posted by Delirium Tremens (Member # 1997) on :
Correct, simplybiological!

I was wondering how long it would take before somebody would find it.

Click here to see what you have won...
Posted by Swami (Member # 2129) on :

Fan of OSC ever since reading an article about computer game design which he wrote in Compute! magazine over 21 years ago.

I may not have a lot of new insight to share here, because OSC already articulates many of my thoughts.

For this intro I'll just link to others' insights instead. A 1999 issue of The National Interest contained an article by Walter Russell Mead entitled "The Jacksonian Tradition." I found it a poignant essay on Orneriness. It's readable at

Thanks for the intro template, Godot.
Posted by Ivan (Member # 1467) on :
card-carrying Republican
You guys have cards?
Posted by Swami (Member # 2129) on :
I contributed a little bit of money to my state's Republican committee, and they sent me a "sustaining member" card. On the back of the card is a handy 2004 calendar.

My supervisor at work is a card-carrying Democrat. He contributed some money to the Democrat's presidential election committee, and they sent him a card, too. His card looks cooler, but doesn't have a calendar on it.
Posted by LoverOfJoy (Member # 157) on :
You guys have cards?
And keys to the executive bathroom. [Big Grin]
Posted by jim beam (Member # 2135) on :
48 years old
living in Thailand.
airline pilot
BA in french lit and communicative disorders.
Scuba diver, hunter, I like fast cars, motorcycles, swamp buggies and large caliber weapons.
I'm an NRA life member.
I subscribe to the national review, the weekly standard, and the washington times.
I brew my own beer and repair my own cars and trucks.
Posted by abm3 (Member # 2139) on :
Married 5 years come December to another lister but don't know what his screen name is! :-)
Two boys, who turn 3 and 1 in January 05.
Administrative judge in Utah - unemployment insurance.
Grew up in Utah, went to law school in NC and then lived in TN for 5 years, working as an advocate for victims of domestic violence.
OSC fan since my freshman year at BYU. Longtime member on the highly unofficial OSC listserve some of y'all may know about.
Card carrying age, member of the Green Party. Yes, we do have cards. No keys to the washroom, I'm afraid. I actually consider myself a conservative in the classic sense, but got used to being called a "Pinko-commie" at BYU.
Tolerate politics, more interested in agricultural and healthcare issues.
Love to read, little time to do so, inconsistent speller (see above).
Was that short & sweet enough?
Posted by javelin (Member # 1284) on :
Originally posted by knokname:

I've been lurking for a long time but I thought I would give a quick intro. I came here through the way several people have, through reading OSC books (the Ender series) and then visiting

My favorite author would be Philip K. Dick with such novels as The Man in the High Castle, Solar Lottery, and the countless short stories. Movies that I enjoy would include but are not limited to: the Lord of the Ring trilogy, Matrix series, 12 Monkeys, Blade Runner, and Dune. Some of the other things I enjoy are anime, B5, computers, and the Simpsons.

I don't care much for partisanship and I’d like to think I’m an open minded person. I am for protecting the environment, and would like more research in to alternative energy sources.

Well, that’s a little about me.

Hey, forgot to welcome my fellow Oregonian (and looks like Portlander, too!) - glad to see you!
Posted by jdodge (Member # 2097) on :
Found the forums through -- am a big fan of Ender series -- and most of OSC's other fiction, including (to a lesser extent) the women of the bible series.
I have a BA with a major in Philosophy, Minor in Computer Science -- graduated in '94.
I've worked a self employed computer consultant for the last 8 years or so.

Politically -- Moderate independent registered as a Democrat. Note: I'm not moderate in my opinions - those are rather strongly held -- I think my politics are best described as broad spectrum.

My only opposition to the death penalty is the finality of it. You can't take it back if you executed the wrong person. The far left wing's opposition to it (the death penalty) on moral grounds doesn't make any sense to me. The "two wrongs don't make a right" is a false argument. On it's face, of course it's true. Standard apprehension and incarceration of criminals is analagous to kidnapping, yet (so far) I haven't heard the same argument applied.
I'm a strong supporter of "workfare" programs -- I think they're healthier for society.
Gun control: The NRA are nutjobs. The second amendment allows citizens to own "arms" and the first amendment guarantees freedom of expression. Why do these same people support censorship while crying foul re: assault weapons bans or background checks?
Education: Minimum standards are fine -- we should certainly have them, but is this really the way to evaulate schools absolutely? Absolutely not. If Johnny can't read -- that's a huge problem and needs to be fixed -- but are we creating a school system where that's all that matters? Johnny needs to be able to think as well -- and believe it or not, it's a skill that needs to be nurtured.

While there are a lot of Democratic candidates I don't really care for (No, I'm not counting Zell Miller as a democrat) on the whole there are few republicans I like at all.
Bush, Rove and co are IMAO the worst of the lot.
Bluster, negativism and no sense of personal responsibility.

A political diatribe may seem an odd way to introduce oneself -- however my frustration over contemporary politics seems to be my defining characteristic at the moment.

Posted by knokname (Member # 1138) on :
Thanks javelin,

I forgot to mention in my post that while I disliked partisanship, I'm very pro-Oregon. [Big Grin]
Posted by auron (Member # 2161) on :
Hello, all.

I'm 21, currently in my fourth (and last!) year of college at the University of Iowa -- go hawks. I'm a computer science major, math minor. I cruised into here from Big fan of Ender's Game and the shadow saga since junior high.

Politically, I'm liberal, starting to swing moderate. I was raised Christian -- Seventh-Day-Adventist, which is about as strict Christian as you can get -- but I'm an atheist now.

As far as hobbies and interests go, I like (in order) movies, video games, writing, and reading.
Posted by Pwwka (Member # 2154) on :
Ello, denizens. My name is Vanessa-- I'm a recently-married 25-yr-old who lives in Baltimore but remains loyal to Cincinnati (yes, even the Bengals). I'm a political activist, aspiring author, and lifelong student of history, particularly medieval. My hobbies include painting, dachshunds, and RPGs.

I first discovered Card in my father's bookshelf in sixth grade, and have pretty much read everything readily available of his work, since. Speaker for the Dead remains my favorite.

Since everyone seems to be divulging his or her political and religious leanings-- I've been a Republican since I could vote, and generally attended Nazarene church, though panic disorder and corresponding agoraphobia have kept me away from it (and pretty much everything outside my home) of late.

I'm rabid about grammar and spelling, but I still make enough mistakes to realize I'd be a hypocrite if I complained about anyone else's. [Wink]

[ November 16, 2004, 12:02 PM: Message edited by: Pwwka ]
Posted by philnotfil (Member # 1881) on :
I'm a public school teacher (6-12 grade band) who thinks that education isn't the responsibility of the government and would like to see an end to public education, or at the very least, and end to the compulsory part of it.

Othert than that I'm pretty boring. I think both major parties are wrong, and if I had to go with an organized political group it would be the libertarians, but if they became successful I think they would start lying more too.

Main interests (forumly speaking) are education, infringement of rights by the government, the truth, and dumb things that the government does.

Oh, and I'm from Florida, GO GATORS!!

[ November 19, 2004, 09:12 AM: Message edited by: philnotfil ]
Posted by Redskullvw (Member # 188) on :
Good God Florida Gators seem to be invading Ornery of late. What is a Dawg to do?
Posted by Zyne (Member # 117) on :
Isn't UFL a public school? [Big Grin]
Posted by tjthetek (Member # 1946) on :
Woman age 31, with two evil foster children (okay one of them is actually nice), recently completed a master's in journalism (although I am a terrible typist), former long time computer technician and actor (mostly student films bleck).

I currently cover five congressional committees. I hate political parties and gerrymandering. I despise most groups in general but see their usefulness. I consider myself an individualist and not a big fan of identity politics.

Despite my posts I prefer states rights to a large federal powerful governement. Seeing what they do everyday gives me less and less faith in "the system." I don't belong to a political party and like to think myself quite libertarian. At the same time, I am a realist and a bit on the mercenary side. That always seems to shock people because I am usually so darn nice.

I love being an American and will fight for the health and sanity of this country tooth and nail. I like to listen to other points of view and have been known to change my mind as new competing information takes hold. It is why I became a journalist and not a lawyer. Despite our reputation we are not all bad. I almost became a lawyer because I love to argue.

This site is awesome.
Posted by Ivan (Member # 1467) on :

How many UF people are here? I can think of two who currently attend (including phil) and two who are grads, and then I'm from Gainesville but left town for school. Its a pretty big school, after all. [Wink]

But I wouldn't worry about it much; UGA whipped UF for the first time in like 8 years the other day. [Frown]
Posted by Ikemook (Member # 1519) on :
Yeah, UF's football team has been very, very...bad...this year, a topic that is in great discussion here at UF.

On the plus side (I think), we just beat FSU.

And on another plus side, people didn't tear down my hall decorations after this victory!

--David Carlson
Who is the other guy that currently goes to UF.
Posted by philnotfil (Member # 1881) on :
Originally posted by Zyne:
Isn't UFL a public school? [Big Grin]

Yes it is [Smile]

and we did just beat FSU 20-13 at Tallahassee on the day that they named the field in honor of the current coach.
Posted by Zyne (Member # 117) on :
Yes it is [Smile]
Ahhah, so you want to do away with your alma mater. *sniff* --LLM, '01
Posted by philnotfil (Member # 1881) on :
[Smile] no, just make it a private school.
Posted by Paul C (Member # 1804) on :
I've been since last November and realized that I never really introduced myself...SO....

I am:

A 39 year old Male.
Married to a retired Woman Marine.
Three children (21F USMC, 15M, 11F...grandgirl 6mos)
I live in Virginia on the coast. I own my home...Okay! I don't really own my home...but in 25 years, I will.
I've served in the United States Marine Corps for the last 21 years and will retire from Active Duty in Jun '05 where I will begin a second career in Government a Postal Carrier. (Seems appropriate with my expert rifle and pistol qualifications! [Big Grin] )
My politics lean towards the right and my best debate tactics are wicked sarcasm and humor.
I value my family above all and take parenting seriously.

I truly value the opinions of the posters in this forum and many of ya'll have actually changed my outlook on some issues.

That's me! [Cool]

Paul C
Posted by Everard (Member # 104) on :
Glad you are going postal in VA and not up the coast a ways! *grin*

Hope the change of careers goes well.
Posted by sakredfire (Member # 2182) on :
Hi all

I've been lurking here for a while, and finally made up my mind to start posting. I'm 18, a California native, and a freshman at UCD majoring in molecular biology, though I might switch to mechanical engineering in the near future. I'm surprised to find that I'm probably one of the youngest posters on this board. I consider myself a moderate, but I lean left on most issues. Looking forward to gaining insight on what happened this past election :-p.
Posted by py225 (Member # 1335) on :
Hello everybody!

I am a 19 year old student at the University of Saskatchewan, currently in the third year of a Biochem degree. I've been lurking around for a while now, and never really felt the urge to post much of anything. I found this forum through OSC's hatrack site.

I consider myself to be right around the centre of the spectrum, for both fiscal and social issues. It is nice to get a broader perspective on issues on this forum then what is available on campus. My school is full of socialists where Bush is pretty much synonymous with terrorist. Although many of you will probably consider my views to be left wing, it will be nice to be considered something other than a conservative nutcase by my socialist friends.
Posted by Heptarch (Member # 2204) on :
Howdy all,

I'm a 31 y/o guy from Salt Lake City, Utah, although I'm not a native "Utard". Both my father and I were in the service, and so I moved around a lot.

I'm a male nurse, and I am my kid's dad, taking care of my beloved Amethyst three or four days each week. Divorced, remarried, on the cusp of another divorce.

Fun fact of the day: I'm part Japanese, and that makes me "Nissei" for any Nipponese who would know the meaning of the word.
Posted by Mr Peabody (Member # 2203) on :
even though I have been earning (the majority) of my bread from working with computers this is the first UBB I have ever spent more than ten minutes on. A friend sent me OSC Thanksgiving note, and presently being in Iraq, I appreciated the...courage, and intelligence captured in it. From reading around this seems to be an interesting bunch of folks. I just turned 39, adore and miss my family, (when not on assignment) live in the Pacific Northwest, am neither a Democrat or a Republican, enjoy poetry, culture and thinking. And as I did read the ABOUT page, will not include any titles, roles, degrees, and or abilities (except Fire Breathing) that I may or may not have. Being in a neighborhood of dramatic unrest (Death of People often and violent) It is difficult not to share my deep appreciation of the simple things (like electricity ;-). Looking forward to some forums...
Posted by Kent (Member # 832) on :
Welcome Mr Peabody,
I thank you for your service.
Posted by stroll (Member # 2219) on :
I am a 46 yrs German living in Thailand with my Thai girlfriend and her daughter. For half my life, I have lived outside Germany (England, Philippines, Thailand), and worked as a selfemployed craftsperson, which included teaching and consultancy in S.E.Asia.

I have recently made a habit of political discussion, as a roundabout result of arguments in a Thailand related forum. I have become curious to find out more about how Americans think, specially the more aggressive elements on the right side of the spectrum.

Ornery has been mentioned on another forum, as being inhabited by a majority of 'liberals', I'd like to get a sense of that version of the US as well. I have never been to the States and rarely socialised with Yanks.
I am still not sure what 'liberal' means in particular, concrete terms, it seems to be a general description for a number of different political views on the left.
BTW, I have been called a 'looney lib' and 'America-hater' myself before.
Posted by kelcimer (Member # 1221) on :
Welcome stroll.

I don't know about Ornery being filled with a majority of liberals, though. It seems to me we got a good balance here between left/right, liberal/conservative. I hope you hang around, 'cause it sounds like you got a differant perspective.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 99) on :
If you're looking for a vocal liberal majority, stroll, you're on the wrong site.
Posted by spack (Member # 2192) on :
Hey Everybody,

I am a Middle Eastern Studies/Arabic undergrad student at BYU, with a minor in econonomics. I hope to get a PhD in Islamic Political Economics, which is pretty messy. I'm 23 years old, married with no kids, and have some international experience:

I lived in Guatemala for 2 years, I just spent 5 months in Egypt (Alexandria, with some jaunts into Cairo, but it's so crowded), and hopefully i'll be living in Damascus, starting in May, for a year. I've also visited Beijing, St. Lucia, Prague, Vienna, Zurich, The Sinai Penninsula, and a handful of the states.

I'm pretty moderate, but most people wouldn't believe me, as I am a staunch Mormon. So I believe in such things as God, Satan, morality, and eternal laws. However, I believe that few, if any, people are all bad or all good. Some of my pet peeves are materialism, blanket statements, and the belief that some people have of scriptural innerancy.

I speak Spanish fluently, read Arabic newspapers, and speak the levantine and Egyptian dialects decently. I Also have very limited experience in ancient greek and hebrew. I aspire to also learn Farsi, Turkish, and Hebrew.

I am especially divergent from this group in the sense that i am much more sympathetic to the Palestinian side of the Palestine/Israeli Issue, although I disliked Arafat as much as I continue to dislike Ariel Sharon.

I play College level ultimate frisbee, the cello, write poetry when i wax poetic, and like to read Dave Barry.
Posted by Zyne (Member # 117) on :
So, you're saying that blanket statements always annoy you? [Razz]
Posted by kenmeer livermaile (Member # 2243) on :
I, Kenmeer Livermaile, am not known by that name in the local physical world. But it works here. I arrived here by way of OSC. I can see why Ender's Game made such a splash, but I'll take William Gibson or Paul Park over OSC anyday. Favorite authors are Nabokov, Borges, & Chesterton, with Joyce Cary receiving honorable mention.

In day to day political expression, most folks would call me a liberal, yet my favorite book of political philosophy is "The Conservative Mind" by Russell Kirk. My opinion on the labels presented as 'liberal/conservative' are that one can't read a book by covering its judges. Or something like that. This guy, perhaps, said it better:

Anyway, he said whatever he said with great finesse and ferocious humor.

As for my words: weed 'em and reap.
Posted by kelcimer (Member # 1221) on :
Welcome spack and kenmeer livermaile.


I think that is one of the best intros we've had here.
Posted by Revel (Member # 2257) on :
Ho, all. I am 35, happily married, oddly - yet well, I think - educated (through a series of life experiences that included college, but no more or less that the rest), a mother of three boys, part-time banker, pet owner, tax payer (sometimes grudgingly) (usually grudgingly), trivia buff, PC-game widow, reader, writer (but only in the shower), and generally a stick-your-nose-in-it-until-you-find-out-their-motivations type of gal. I was raised in DC, but am currently residing in the Gateway of the South and Momument to the Losing Side (aka Richmond, VA). I am a politial conservative/moderate/ liberal. I like to learn new stuff.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on :
I don't think I ever introduced myself.

I'm 27, been married 2 years to a very tolerant and sweet woman, and I have a very young son. When I'm not pondering the mysteries of the toddler mind, my interests are science fiction (hence my handle), computer stuff, and thinking of inventions then promptly forgetting about them. Some of them might have been pretty good ideas.

I did some college but didn't last long there. I've been working for a successful Internet company (you could get it in 5 guesses I think) for 5 years in various non- to semi-technical roles. I am getting pretty good at MS Excel and VBA.

Politically I am conservative on family-related issues and I think pretty moderate on everything else. I am a little bit liberal on health care.

I like Ornery because there are some really smart people posting here, and I learn from them.
Posted by whatablair (Member # 1876) on :
As I just posted my first reply...

I am 21, college student at Purdue University. I am studying mechanical engineering in the co-op program, which means I alternate semesters of class with semesters of work. I am currently on work session with Honeywell.

I enjoy the forum because of the broad range of intelligent opinions. I am constantly challenged to reanalyze my positions.

I do not know how to classify my political views, but maybe I can garner some labels while I am here.
Posted by kelcimer (Member # 1221) on :
Welcome whatablair.
It is good to see lurkers getting into the pool. [Smile]
Posted by Phyreman (Member # 2272) on :
Hi all,

I've been reading this site since 2001, but I never got around to registering for some reason. Anyway, I'm a 26 year old paramedic near Scranton PA, I first read Ender's Game when I was about 12 and I've been hooked on OSC ever since. I'm a political moderate, conservative on many family issues, liberal on most other things.

In addition to reading Sci-Fi I enjoy outdoor activities such as rock climbing, backpacking, driving trails in my Jeep (in an environmentally conscious fashion of course [Smile] ), computer games, and tinkering with my computer.
Posted by cperry (Member # 1938) on :
Welcome Phyreman.
Posted by Chloe (Member # 2303) on :

My name is Stacy, I am KE (Knight Ender)'s wife. We have been married for 16 years and have two handsome boys (12 & 15). I post on a couple of boards on AOL and have a regular group of friends that get together and chat and fly around the country going to Olivia Newton John concerts. I hear about all of you from John all the time, but haven't posted here on OA for at least over a year, maybe two, but a topic caught my attention and I thought since I was going to post I would let you know who I am.

Posted by WarrsawPact (Member # 1275) on :
Here's a big shout out to all the new arrivals: I love it when people come out of the woodwork and decide to post after reading us for a while and I'm happy to see that the reasons you're doing so are so complementary to the posters.

I prize the same mix of different intelligent opinions that make me re-analyze my previous beliefs (one of my favorite names for a blog is "Everything I Know Is Wrong"). And when people come to a site because they like it too, they tend to add to the atmosphere.

Posted by SocialistAnarchist (Member # 2323) on :
My screenname is a joke, of course. I'm neither a socialist nor an anarchist. Sometimes when people ask my political leanings I jokingly say I am a socialist anarchist, I want the government to mail me a check but otherwise leave me alone. [Razz]

I have been to this forum a few times since 2003 and I like the discusions. I have never registered or posted here before and thought I might start posting now, for no particular reason.

I hope to have some fruitful arguments here, and polish my logic and debating skills. [Smile]
Posted by WarrsawPact (Member # 1275) on :
Hehe, cool, look forward to you getting above that 1 Post milestone. [Wink]
Posted by Nightfly (Member # 2325) on :
Hi all -

I won't ramble. (Those who know me in person, please stop snickering.) I live in New Jersey, play chess, and read and write voraciously. I play faux hockey, but only because ice is slippery. I'm unmarried.

I spent a few days looking around and liked it. (And Paladine made me.) I look forward to the give and take.
Posted by kenmeer livermaile (Member # 2243) on :
I spent a few days looking around and liked it. (And Paladine made me.) I look forward to the give and take.
You give; we take. Welcome to Orn'ry. Don't say we never didn't give you nothin'
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on :
Welcome, to you both. The more the merrier. [Smile]


[ March 02, 2005, 01:17 AM: Message edited by: KnightEnder ]
Posted by WarrsawPact (Member # 1275) on :
OMG! KE got the 500th post!
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on :
Yeah, balloons came down, my computer lit up, and OSC came on live to congratulate me. It was great! [Big Grin]

Posted by Gareth Andrew Mostert (Member # 2331) on :
Names Gareth Andrew Mostert and the youngest English teach in China with a good quilfication to teach (CELTA) I am not one to brag 20. I been teaching sinse my mother made me do it when I was 17 turning 21 sep.
I am very much into Chinese war history and Politics of Asian Countries I am very happy living and working in China and there is also where i get my information from, This country's heritage is longer than most and I listen when told stuff. Chinese have talked a bout alot since Confusious a long time ago, and they've wiped them selves out millions of times for nought so it is fun to learn where it all started.
Posted by Zyne (Member # 117) on :
GAM--mind if I call you that--what do you think of what happened to stainless steel mouse?
Posted by WarrsawPact (Member # 1275) on :
I'd be extremely interested in discussion about China. I've become quite enamored with learning about the country and really the whole region of late.
Posted by Digger (Member # 2341) on :
I'm 36, married, live in Atlanta and found this site via an OSC article reprinted in the Wall Street Journal a while back. I've lurked sporadically for about a year and am considering becoming a more regular visitor.

I call myself politically homeless and my friends tell me I'm a study in contradictions. I'm a residential land developer with a background in environmental engineering, as one example.

I'm intrigued at the unusually civil discussion on potentially hot button topics here as compared to other places I've lurked. I hope I can add to and not detract from the atmosphere.
Posted by cperry (Member # 1938) on :
Politically homeless -- I love it!
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on :
Welcom Digger. We try to be civil, and even when we argue it's more like family than the venom you see on most forums. But, I guess you know that if you have been lurking. Please, join the debate!

Posted by Digger (Member # 2341) on :
Thanks KE. So far, so good. I'll probably tread in slowly, until I learn the players and ground rules a little better.

I tend to be a political strategy wonk and less of a philosopher, so I'm particularly interested in the Republican realignment/Democratic strategy discussions. I like the (relative) lack of venom since I don't really take sides very often.
Posted by Funean (Member # 2345) on :
I've been lurking for a while, first drawn to the site by its name and connection to a writer whose fiction I respect enormously, and then by the extraordinary courtesy shown in these forums. Figured I'd better register in case the urge to post struck me.

While I am registered in one of the big two parties, so I don't have to sit out the primaries, I find that neither party is particularly coherent with regards to its own purported mission, and that neither satisfies my political needs. "Conservative" and "liberal" also have ceased to have meaning without modifiers, and so are well on their way to becoming non-words. I have never voted a straight ticket.

I am comfortable with my own moral code, though not always with my ability to adhere to it. I believe while they are overlapping sets, morality and the ethical commitments and behaviors necessary for humans to live together in functioning communities are distinct.

I have been married-in-principle (though not legally) for eight years and have a five year old son and a 20 month old daughter. Having come late to parenthood, I am pretty much wallowing in it now.

I read...excessively. Like a book a day, in spite of having a job, kids, and a dog. I can't help it.

I am delighted to have found a community that seems to actually operate under an agreement that good and reasonable people will often disagree, and that those diverse points of view should be fully heard, and respectfully criticized.

Lastly, this is the only post I will make with this many "I"s in it!
Posted by kenmeer livermaile (Member # 2243) on :
"Lastly, this is the only post I will make with this many "I"s in it!"

Since 'I' is the topic, you aren't indulgent but merely germane. I hope the urge to post strikes you, for you strike me as being uncommonly self-adhering, which is to say that your words convey considerable rhetorical integrity.

YOu also display a talent fopr condensing notions into clearly written ideas.

Posted by Funean (Member # 2345) on :
Why, thank you, kenmeer(simpers, briefly). I like words. I also like people who use them well and with affection, which is another thing attracting me to Ornery. It is rare to find a forum with equal measures of intelligence and good humor, and I do hope to be able to both read and post, if irregularly.

glad to be germane and not indulgent (and even gladder not to be Tito, and most especially not Michael)(/end bad Jackson jokes)
Posted by oxideflite (Member # 2383) on :
I've been reading articles on this site for quite a while and thought it might be edifying as well as fun, to participate from time to time.

I do tend to have some ideas that are "outside the box", so to speak. For instance, today I was talking with one of our consultants, a Canadian, no less, about the crazy transportation infrastructure that we has in the US. I think that we out to tax gasoline a whole lot more than we do, as long as we can earmark most of the revenues for improving our rail system; and drastically reduce the funding of the highway system at the same time. The interstate system was one of the worst mistakes that we have come up with. Why should we be funding truckers and RV's, and using so much of the world's petroleum preserves to allow our teenagers to cruise 7 nights a week?
Posted by WarrsawPact (Member # 1275) on :
Erm... why don't you start a thread on that, Oxi. I'm sure you'll find many willing to debate the subject.

New ideas are always welcome in my universe. I'm here to learn... so... Welcome!
Posted by The Annoyed Man (Member # 2387) on :
Hi all. I just now joined. I am 52, married to my very best friend in the world, and father to a 15 yr old son of whom I am very proud.

I also own a discussion board that gets a lot of traffic, and my passions are faith and politics. I found this site quite by accident because I followed a link to one of Orson Scott Card's articles. So far, I like what I see here, although I won't have much time to spend here. It seems like a friendly place though.

Bless you all.
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on :
Welcome to OA. Most members don't check here too often. Usually when they notice someone posting on another thread and then come here to see if they have posted and intro. So if you haven't gotten a lot of responses from just posting here and on the Rules thread, don't be discouraged.


[ April 12, 2005, 07:51 AM: Message edited by: KnightEnder ]
Posted by jefferson101 (Member # 2396) on :
Greetings, people:

I live down here in LA (That's Lower Arkansas [Big Grin] ) I live about as far off the beaten path as one can get without being either independently wealthy or self-employed.

I had a party line telephone until 1994, and couldn't get anything except dial-up internet access until about a month ago, which should tell you something about how far into the sticks I am.

I'm married (32 years) with two grown children and two grandchildren. But I'm not old. I'm just 18, with 35 years of experience.

I'm a cynic, but not fond of wild conspiracy theories. My politics would best be described as somewhat right of center.

And I'm also not fond of describing myself too much. As I'm around more, y'all will probably figure me out, somewhat. A lot of times I'm still trying to figure me out myself.

Posted by Lisa M. (Member # 2398) on :
Hello, everyone. I just joined the board today, and plan on lurking for a while before seriously adding to discussion, but figured that a slightly early introduction was better than a late one.

Politically, I am called liberal while in conservative groups and conservative while in liberal groups. As far as I can tell, that makes me a moderate. I love debating politics.

Currently, I'm in college studying to be a high school English teacher.

I first discovered OSC in a high school English class when I read Ender's Game. I became addicted to the series, and, while considering writing a paper on the series, came across during preliminary research. The paper idea was scrapped (Aldous Huxley won in the end) but the site was interesting enough that I kept coming back.

I'm not quite sure what else I should say here, so I'll leave that to you all to figure out through my eventual posts.
Posted by ender wiggin (Member # 9) on :

I used to be on ornery when it first started. I've been taking a bit of a hiatus from the internet since then (I'm a bit of a luddite) whille simultaniously working as a system administrator.

Currently I'm working for the [Canadian] army in the tech field and also as armoured recce soldier, I am the only woman in my squadron. I'm also working on my degree in History and Anthoropology part time, some day I'll finish.

Since the old days I used to post my politics have taken a bit of a swing to the left. (and that's left for Canada. That's what working minimum wage at a grocery store will do to you.)

It's good to see you Everad, and RedSkullVW. I hope the discussion on ornery has kept up its old high standard.
Posted by OrneryMod (Member # 977) on :
Glad to see you back.

There have been some changes. [Smile]

e-mail me.


[ April 22, 2005, 09:33 AM: Message edited by: OrneryMod ]
Posted by QuidNunc (Member # 2405) on :
After being conscripted into aiding my boyfriend (serotonin'sgone) in a debate with the incorrigible Richard a few weeks back, I realized that it was probably time to get my own account and stop making his posts look (quite so) schizophrenic.

I'm 23 years old and a second year law student at the University of TX in Austin. I'm a native Texan, a fairly rabid libertarian, and Protestant. I spent my undergrad at Yale where I spent most of my time rowing crew, waxing philosophical in my political debate society, and drinking. Despite such demands on my time, I managed to get a BA in Classics. Now, two years into law school, I am considering returning to that (though not to the North East) upon graduation next May. The law hasn't really captured my imagination, to say the least.

Not so smancy, but there you have it.

[ May 02, 2005, 02:17 PM: Message edited by: QuidNunc ]
Posted by cperry (Member # 1938) on :
Glad to have you, QuidNunc.
Posted by Funean (Member # 2345) on :
Welcome, QuidNunc! Glad to see there are still some folks out there getting degrees in Classics (my degree was in philosophy, but Classics was one of the "big" majors at the college).
Posted by WarrsawPact (Member # 1275) on :
Fairly rabid libertarian, eh?

This should be interesting.

(I'm a neolibertarian.)
Posted by R_Kinder (Member # 2446) on :
Hello Ornery folks!
I'm alive, well & living in Dallas, TX. I work as an electrical engineer at a semiconductor co.

I tend toward conservative/libertarian politically. My wife has made me lean more conservative these past few years.

My hobbies are juggling, researching historical dance and fighting manuals, and practicing the techniques therein.

I'm an aficianado of very spicy Tex-mex cooking, tequila, single-malt Scotch, & beers from Germany & England. (hic!)

I've been an OSC fan for probably 15 years. Unlike many, I have not been disappointed (or surprised) to find that he is a politically & socially conservative person. I can see where many find his opinion pieces strident, but I feel they are too eager to play the role of persecuted victim, when the argument is not aimed at them. It's all a problem of labels, really.

Anyway, good to finally come on board after lurking for years. I won't be able to post very regularly, because my work and hobbies occupy me nearly all waking hours.

Best Regards to all,
Posted by Lifewish (Member # 1063) on :

I was on Ornery a couple of years back but let my posting habits lapse. I was flipping through my bookmarks when I came across OSC's blog again. Hopefully I'll stay around longer this time

I'm a 20 year old british maths student. I don't have much in the way of political leanings. I'm quite strongly atheist, but am always willing to have errors of logic pointed out to me. I love a good debate.

Good to see you all again.
Posted by WarrsawPact (Member # 1275) on :
Ah good, another libertarian.

As for you, Lifewish... [Smile]
I'm quite strongly atheist, but am always willing to have errors of logic pointed out to me.
... like believing that a perceived absence of evidence is evidence of absence? [Wink]

I give agnostics a pass. Not atheists. Welcome back.
Posted by Lifewish (Member # 1063) on :
I'll accept that God exists when you accept that there are invisible mutant aardvarks flying around high above our major cities. After all, an absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence [Wink]

Maybe best to leave this train of thought to the inevitable next "does God exist?" debate...
Posted by javelin (Member # 1284) on :
Welcome, both Lifewish and R_Kinder - it's good to have some fresh blood here! I hope some of our other newer members will hope in and give us some background - don't know why it helps, but it does!
Posted by NobleHunter (Member # 2450) on :

I'm a History major at Trent University in Peterborough, Ontario. I've been lurking here in part to to counter an incredibly annoying habit of assuming that conservatives who disagree with me are ignorant, stupid or evil, or a combination of all three. Fortunately, this forum provides ample evidence to the contrary.
I don't post because despite being willing to plunge headlong into debate in person, the amount of deliberation afford by the nature of forums overwhelms my loquaciousness. I'm introducing myself in hopes of using the momentum to engage Pete at Home in a discussion, but I suspect I will spend far too much time contemplating my responses, and his possible responses and my responses to his responses, ad nauseum...

And when I'm talking I don't have to worry about spelling.
Posted by Lifewish (Member # 1063) on :
Spelling is overrated. Welcome to the forum.

From two days' experience, the best way to debate with Pete at Home seems to be to figure out what he believes in (non-trivial - see below) then try to spot factual errors and logical inconsistencies. Don't waste too much time thinking several moves ahead, cos by the time you get that far the focus of the debate may have changed. Also note that Pete, like any good lawyer, will resist being pinned down to one set of beliefs, cos it makes responding harder if he suddenly realises that one of them is wrong/indefensible.

Pete: we're mostly friendly enough not to use irrelevant mistakes against you, so no need to be evasive unless you're worried that your core beliefs are wrong/indefensible.
Posted by NobleHunter (Member # 2450) on :
I think you misunderstand. I'm not interested in proving Pete wrong, merely discussing certain issues with him in order to figure out what the other side believes.

It's also quite easy to figure out what he believes. It's understanding why and how he believes it that I find difficult.
Posted by Lifewish (Member # 1063) on :
I think you misunderstand. I'm not interested in proving Pete wrong, merely discussing certain issues with him in order to figure out what the other side believes.
Same here, although I'm also interested in trying to figure out whether my opinion is justifiable.

It's also quite easy to figure out what he believes. It's understanding why and how he believes it that I find difficult.
I'd agree that it's quite easy to figure out what he believes. I have been having some trouble getting him to commit to any one set of beliefs though.
Posted by cperry (Member # 1938) on :
Nice to meet you, kannan. Feel free to chime in. It would be nice to hear your perspective on some issues, I'm sure.
Posted by KarlEd (Member # 2492) on :
I just registered today. I've lurked a bit and thought I might post. I decided when I do I don't want my first response to a serious thread to be my FIRST post on the forum.
Posted by msquared (Member # 113) on :
For those of you who do not know, Karl is a long time member at Hatrack and also a player in my PBEM D&D game.

Welcome Karl.

Posted by motyzarc (Member # 2496) on :
This is my first post as well, so, Hi. I am currently in high school, started out as a book-only fan of OSC but have migrated over to his columns. I just had this anecdote supporting the heartland/smartland distinction. I come from a very liberal section of New Jersey, and during a week before the 2004 elections, my school hosted its own mock election. John Kerry won, with something like 66% of votes, which left President Bush with less than 34% (due to write-ins.) The results illustrate the usefulness of the heartland/smartland description, which I like mainly because it is cute. Anyway just thought this was a good place to introduce myself.

[ June 09, 2005, 09:53 PM: Message edited by: motyzarc ]
Posted by FIJC (Member # 1092) on :
"I just registered today. I've lurked a bit and thought I might post. I decided when I do I don't want my first response to a serious thread to be my FIRST post on the forum."
Hey, this is news to me! Glad you're posting here now. [Smile]
Posted by tinytom (Member # 2502) on :
I'm a 20 year old college senior? With 3 more senior years to go before I finish my degrees in Biology and Bio-Chemistry from Florida State Universtiy. Politically, I bounce around between extreme fiscal conservative, to socially very liberal, I would be a libertarian I guess, if I felt that we as people would be responsible enough to build parks and keep up roads on our own with making it fabulously expensive and/or dirty to use. I used to be a big fan of the "Enders Game" series, and it was Card's name that brought this webpage and its essays and forum to my attention.
Posted by cperry (Member # 1938) on :
Go Noles! I graduated from FSU in '87. You from Florida originally?
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on :
My first post was about religion. I think it is still one of the most replied to posts in OA history. My contribution has trailed off considerably since then. [Frown]

Welcome new members! [Smile]

Posted by ender wiggin (Member # 9) on :
stop braggin KE
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on :
Hey, I take pride in my ability to piss off large numbers of people.

Posted by Redskullvw (Member # 188) on :
Just to update...

Everything is still largely correct except I am in a new house with a new yard, got married, and had a baby boy. otherwise not much else as changed. And to those who sent emails over the last week or two and haven't heard back, sorry my system totally crashed and its going to take me a little more time to recover files and messages. If I haven't replied, and you expected me to by say next wednesday,you might want to send it again.

Oh and welcome to all the members who chimed in over the last few pages.
Posted by Funean (Member # 2345) on :
Geez, not much going on, huh? All that's left is taking over the world (same thing we do Every Day, Pinky!).

Anyhow, congratulations. Your life will never be the same, if you hadn't noticed. [Smile]
Posted by aceboy911 (Member # 2511) on :
I am a Biology major, chemistry minor at the grand ole school: Southwestern Oklahoma State University. I have lived all over the world, been to every continent except for australia and the Antartic...No accessible oil there i suppose. My family were oil people. Currently a Senior, I plan on going to graduate school once I get out of this place and get a doctorate in Biochemistry or Molecular Biology. I am 22 years old and married to a wonderful woman, who also happens to be a lurker here. We came to this website after you guys were farked. see for details. We both enjoy the discussions that go on here and like to watch and listen, so posts from us will probably not be very often for a while. I tend to ramble a lot, and do not know when to end a post, so they are usually lengthy, I apologize now. I suppose I am fairly strong moderate, agreeing and disagreeing with points from both sides of the fence. Extremists on either side make me laugh. I believe myself to be a christian, but believe that most denominations are crap these days, just little people sqaubbling for power. The church as a whole I think has lost its way somewhere a long time ago, and has become yet another corporation eager to take your money in exchange for enternal salvation and peace of mind. I also believe in evolution, because it is present all around us, but I also believe that God created this world around us, if for no other reason than the fact that you cannot get something from nothing. I hope to enjoy many a pleasant conversation.
I enjoy Sci-fi and fantasy, but also love history, classical and some modern literature, and anything else that catches my eye. I read R.A. Salvatore back when I was little, maybe 7-8 and loved it, but picked it back up again recently and couldn't stand it because it was so simple and plain writing. I like any book that doesn't make me laugh in the first few pages when it isn't supposed to. That about covers it.
Posted by simplybiological (Member # 1344) on :
hey ace... as you may or may not have gleaned, i'm a grad student in ecology/evolution/behavior, and i have plenty of bitter things to say about how graduate school ripped all the optimisim and motivation in my field right out of my body. I strongly suggest taking some time off between undergrad and grad... and maybe reading (if you haven't already) the phD students and failure thread.
/unsolicited advice.

that said, i'm really glad to see other biology folks posting here...

cp, you know I went to UF, right?
Posted by Fel (Member # 2503) on :
Well, I guess I should introduce myself, I'm 28 years old, BS in Chemical Engineering, working as an environmental consultant (no, on the evil side, I help businesses pollute). I live in Southern California in one of the red suburbs east of Los Angeles (made fun of on the Simpsons). My political views are libertarianish, I'm not fanatical about pretty much anything and will openly admit that there are some things government will do better than the private sector.
Posted by antares (Member # 2513) on :

I also am a biology major/chemistry minor. I am starting my senior year of undergraduate school, and I happen to be the wife of aceboy911.

I do not plan to post much, not because I don't love Ornery, but because I enjoy reading the opinions of everyone else here way more than I enjoy reading my own opinions. Also, I just don't feel qualified to debate with most of you. I'd get ripped to shreds in an instant. This is the reason I love Ornery so much.

Anyway, this introduction is mostly to say how much I (and I'm sure the other lurkers, too) appreciate the intelligent debate here. It's really, really addictive. Thank you all very much for the opportunity to lurk here.
Posted by aceboy911 (Member # 2511) on :
Don't let her fool you, she is an excellent arguer. I should know:) Beware!!!
Posted by cperry (Member # 1938) on :
Originally posted by simplybiological:
cp, you know I went to UF, right?

Did I know that? I think I'd remember it. Ah well, you def weren't there when I was at FSU. Of course, I hate the Hurricanes worse!

(It amazes me how many Noles and Gators are up here in No VA. You got a lot of Gators there with you in Austin?)
Posted by The Drake (Member # 2128) on :
Originally posted by antares:
Also, I just don't feel qualified to debate with most of you. I'd get ripped to shreds in an instant. This is the reason I love Ornery so much.

That doesn't stop the rest of us. [Smile]

I'm always proud of the discussions we have here when we get this kind of feedback. We only gain from fresh opinions - and that goes for the rest of you lurking lot out there!

Cheers, and thanks for saying hi.
Posted by Lady Starkiller (Member # 2444) on :
Y'know, I probably should have posted here the first day I signed up -- but I got involved in the discussions and promptly forgot.

I'm a college student currently studying history after getting booted from a philosophy program. History is my one true love, although mythology's right up there, and they fight over me all the time. [Smile]

Specifically, I love the history of symbols, languages, and religions. My favorite time period to study is anything from the earliest historical glimmerings through the Renaissance, although all history fascinates me.

I'm also an author who is attempting to write and publish a book of myths from a fictional culture. (Geeky, much?)

Politically, I'm a scatter plot, falling where I may.

Religion-wise, I'm about the same.

I can be cantankerous and sarcastic (not that anyone's noticed [Smile] ).

I was a lurker a long while back, but was put off by all of the "OMG I can't believe OSC wrote those books if he thinks like this!" crap - but I came back to lurk recently, and I'm glad I did.

Sorry for the late intro...
Posted by Archer (Member # 2546) on :
I'm a middle aged man from the mid-west. Contrary to popular opinion, I don't have a Nebraska "twang". I speak english as it is meant to be spoken. [Big Grin]

I'm an old hand to various conversation forums but have gotten worn down by constant trolling and people thinking they can "win" discussions by typing rudeness in ALL CAPS. I've lurked for a while here and have liked what I've seen.

I like fast cars and fast women. Well, not really. How about a Mazda and a hot wife?

I do swing both ways: libertarian and republican according to how the mood strikes me.

I'm religious in my own way but definitely not a "social conservative".

I like history and would like digging through musty old tomes if the internet weren't so much more convenient. The nice thing about history is that everything that isn't NOW qualifies.

I'm a sucker for Sci Fi TV series whether they're any good or not. And I like meatloaf, d*** it.

I try to immerse myself in the news of the day. We live in a fascinating world and learning about it and discussing it is almost as good as having a real life. [Wink]
Posted by TS Elliot (Member # 736) on :
Despite my low member nr. it's my first time here. Most of you have already known a bit about me ... what am i talking about? Most of you are sound a sleep, allright eeeh ... Some of you already know somethings about me, prolly not all good.

Eeeh I'm from Europe, I'm a social-democrat, but of the treehugging variety. Not a native english speaker, so that accounts for the accent [Wink]
I am a student, trying to write my thesis, I live in this big appartment complex with other students but it's not a us-styled campus. It's very fun to live here, lotsa people in the 20 - 30 age bracket although more 20ish than 30ish. And one of the other big advantages of living here is "free" highspeed internet. Don't ask me how they did it, not a techo. At times access is spotty, when they do a 'change'. Dunno what that entails. Other advantages are good sports facilities closeness to the centre of town, etc. etc.
As I am pretty much inyourface, I don't understand
the lurker mentality. But I don't have to and they don't have to explain it. Religion: I'm a non-practising agnostic.
Travel motto: Don't do anything I would ... [Wink]

Oh yeah, and I'm of the standing up while peeing kind. [Wink] Hope this helps.

[ July 27, 2005, 01:18 AM: Message edited by: TS Elliot ]
Posted by Archer (Member # 2546) on :
Isn't that messy?
Posted by javelin (Member # 1284) on :
TS Elliot & Archer - thanks for introducing yourselves! And WELCOME!
Posted by JoshuaD (Member # 1420) on :
Religion: I'm a non-practising agnostic.
How do you practice Agnosticism? [Big Grin]
Posted by Pelegius (Member # 2399) on :
I refuse to give anything other than my name, rank and number. Sorry, wrong occasion. I am probably the youngest member of this site, although I will not give my age, and have been posting here for some time, but havn't gotten around to actualy introducing myself. I am a practing Anglican, although I am at odds with the more conservative factions. My personal philosophy is based highly on Wittgenstein's works on language and on the metods of Hegalianism, although not the coresponding teachings. I am a student by profesion, although I am on break now. I am not a member of any political party but I align myself most often with the European moderate left. My view of a perfect society is based on Plato's Repuplic, but adapted to a democratic mold, i.e. a society ruled by philosphers becouse every member was a philosopher, and every member had a vote.
Posted by javelin (Member # 1284) on :
Thank you Pelegius - this isn't fair, but it makes it much easier to understand someone's arguments and point of view with a little background mixed in.

Posted by The Drake (Member # 2128) on :
I've never introduced myself either, in all this time.

I closely agree with Objectivist philosophies, which puts me squarely outside both mainstream political parties. I design circuits on silicon for a living, with a side business in film and television. I desperately wish that politics would be based more on reason and less on emotion. In an argument, I will always support the individual over the collective.
Posted by Archer (Member # 2546) on :
Originally posted by Pelegius:
I am a practing Anglican, although I am at odds with the more conservative factions.

Me too! I much prefer artificial lures to natural baits. I'm particularly fond of going after rainbow trout. What's your favorite?
Posted by Ben (Member # 1153) on :
I'm too tired and lazy right now to see what I posted previously in introducing myself. Basically I'm just updating in a spare moment what's been happening lately before I sink back into sporadically posting lurkerdom. Graduated 2 years ago, did part time jobs and had a baby girl last year before finally getting a great job offer in architecture and moving in all of 2 weeks from the LA area to St. George, Utah. Man am I beat! Now back to my new life... But I'm still checking in [Smile]
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on :

I couldn't remember if I ever posted on this the Introduction thread, turns out I did, on about page 5, here is one of the things I said.

I'm an atheist, who has been accused of being left wing, although I'm very patriotic and support the president and the recent war.
See, I told you I didn't start out hating Bush or the war.

I spelled Biggio without the last "i" and Baldar asked "Who's Craig Biggo?" I'm not sure if he just doesn't know baseball, or if he was being a jerk, but either way; it's telling when you look at what has happened to him. [Frown]


[ August 05, 2005, 05:16 AM: Message edited by: KnightEnder ]
Posted by javelin (Member # 1284) on :
I remember, KE [Smile] I DO trust you to be honest - it's one of my favorite things about you!

Craig Biggio is God.
[Big Grin]
Posted by Archer (Member # 2546) on :
I thought God's name was "Howard". [Confused]
Posted by javelin (Member # 1284) on :
Originally posted by Archer:
I thought God's name was "Howard". [Confused]

Actually, it's "Tim" - and you better remember it this time, lest you be stricken down! [Smile]
Posted by Archer (Member # 2546) on :
Originally posted by javelin:
Originally posted by Archer:
I thought God's name was "Howard". [Confused]

Actually, it's "Tim" - and you better remember it this time, lest you be stricken down! [Smile]
Then why do the Christians pray, "Howard be thy name"?
Posted by javelin (Member # 1284) on :
Originally posted by Archer:
Originally posted by javelin:
Originally posted by Archer:
I thought God's name was "Howard". [Confused]

Actually, it's "Tim" - and you better remember it this time, lest you be stricken down! [Smile]
Then why do the Christians pray, "Howard be thy name"?
God's second cousin, Howard, is known to handle the prayer stuff when Tim is busy. [Smile]

[ August 05, 2005, 05:26 PM: Message edited by: javelin ]
Posted by Archer (Member # 2546) on :
Ah, thanks for clearing that up. Someday I'll have a handle on this religion thing.
Posted by MoralDK (Member # 2547) on :
Hiya. My name is MoralDK. Which is short for moral decay. The name came to me 8 years ago after reading some lame article where someone claimed computer games like Doom, Quake, & Half-Life were causing significant moral decay in American society.

I’m from the Midwest, am in my mid thirties, have a wife & two kids, and am semi-retired.

I moderate a debate section for a gaming clan called The Sunflowers 0f Death. It’s a TFC (Team Fortress Classic – which is a Half-Life mod) clan with about 30 active people. With only about 10 people who actually have any opinion about politics or debatable topics, it can get tedious. But they’re my friends so it’s still fun beating up the liberal punks without getting personal.

I have been lurking on and off here for a few months. I hesitated posting because often people have already said the things I would say so I was thinking what’s the point? I’m not the smartest guy in the world and 9 times out of 10 someone has said (or I know will say) what I would say – only far more clearly and eloquently.

But I decided my desire to participate is greater than my insecurities. So here I am.


[ August 06, 2005, 02:21 AM: Message edited by: MoralDK ]
Posted by javelin (Member # 1284) on :
Glad to see you, and welcome, MoralDK!
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on :
Welcome to OA, MoralDK.

Thanks Jav. I really appreciate that. You've made my day. It's nice to know that somebody notices the few good qualities I posses.

Posted by javelin (Member # 1284) on :
Originally posted by KnightEnder:
Welcome to OA, MoralDK.

Thanks Jav. I really appreciate that. You've made my day. It's nice to know that somebody notices the few good qualities I posses.


I'm sure that there are quite a few others here who appreciate and notice them too!
Posted by cperry (Member # 1938) on :
Originally posted by javelin:
Originally posted by Archer:
Originally posted by javelin:
Originally posted by Archer:
I thought God's name was "Howard". [Confused]

Actually, it's "Tim" - and you better remember it this time, lest you be stricken down! [Smile]
Then why do the Christians pray, "Howard be thy name"?
God's second cousin, Howard, is known to handle the prayer stuff when Tim is busy. [Smile]
I thought His first name was Lloyd. You know, "Lloyd, hear our prayer"?
Posted by javelin (Member # 1284) on :
Originally posted by cperry:
Originally posted by javelin:
Originally posted by Archer:
Originally posted by javelin:
Originally posted by Archer:
I thought God's name was "Howard". [Confused]

Actually, it's "Tim" - and you better remember it this time, lest you be stricken down! [Smile]
Then why do the Christians pray, "Howard be thy name"?
God's second cousin, Howard, is known to handle the prayer stuff when Tim is busy. [Smile]
I thought His first name was Lloyd. You know, "Lloyd, hear our prayer"?
Wow, I feel like I'm taken the position of "Hierarchy of Heaven Teacher" - wish it was paid. *sigh*

Anyway, Lloyd is actually Tim's agent - he passes all that prayer stuff onto Tim, if he figures it's worth Tim's time.

[ August 07, 2005, 02:04 PM: Message edited by: javelin ]
Posted by Hannibal (Member # 1339) on :
god! that post looked like a collapsible tree i just made in javascript

7 interwined while() loops
Posted by missyme (Member # 2571) on :
Hi There,
I am new to this site, as a moderate conservative
geering twoards hard core! LOL I hope to chat with the views of other conservatives about Current Events and the Political Climate, after 3 years on Freerepublic I was banned because I questioned Rumsfeld, Oh well hope we have more of a open mind here with hardliners and Moonbats!

A Native Californian I reside in San Diego and my occuaption is in nursing, in nationwide recruitment for my Hospital.
Posted by OpsanusTau (Member # 2350) on :
What's a moonbat?
Posted by missyme (Member # 2571) on :

Bleeding Heart Liberals and there entire prose on the Political System in this country...
Posted by Funean (Member # 2345) on :
Welcome to Ornery, missyme.

Just a hint: you'll find it a more rewarding experience if you don't start with namecalling right off the bat. It's not really our style here.
Posted by Paladine (Member # 1932) on :
Just a hint: you'll find it a more rewarding experience if you don't start with namecalling right off the bat. It's not really our style here.
Speak for yourself, moonbat!


But seriously folks....some of my most interesting conversations on these boards have been with liberals like KE, Ricky, Ev, Adam, and others. So, welcome aboard, Missy. Keep your ears and mind open to the other side. They're ably represented here, and they even have a point sometimes. [Wink]
Posted by Funean (Member # 2345) on :
[Big Grin]
Posted by Redskullvw (Member # 188) on :
Welcome to all the new members on the last few pages. Good and interesting mix of people.
Posted by missyme (Member # 2571) on :
Thanks Everyone for the welcome!
And as a Staunch Conservative I welcome interesting conversations with all including the liberals on this site.... [Smile]
Posted by IrishTD (Member # 2216) on :
Hey All,

I was skimming this thread (since I haven't yet before) and realized that I hadn't tossed anything in here yet...

I was a lurker long before I registered last Dec. So, here's the basic info...mid-20's male...grew up in central Ohio...moved up here to South Bend, IN to go to a double Domer (go irish!) and working on #3 in computer engineering. Was raised sorta Catholic (we were occassional chuch goers), and still not a church going type. Also been heavily involved with Habitat for Humanity up here...good times.

Getting married in about a month and just bought a house this past summer...ahh, the joys of homeownership (at least it's been dry around here).

Can't really say where I fall on the political spectrum -- generally tend to be conservative/libertarian for most stuff...far more moderate on social issues. The engineering training wants to see gov't/society just work right...maybe someday.

Other hobbies: college FB and basketball, pro baseball (Braves) and football (Browns), outdoors stuff, reading, history, etc. More or less a bit of everything.

Methinks that should give all of ya enough background. [Smile]
Posted by Aerto (Member # 2625) on :
I just joined and found this thread so I thought I'd post about me. No one will probably read it, but thats fine, most people find me boring.

I'm 25 year old male. Have degrees in Political Science (useless), Accounting (hated it), and Law (Just got it, hopefully I can make a living off it).

I'm a conservative, fundamentalist Christian who thinks that what the world needs is not more tolerance but more respect. I also think most people who criticize fundamental Christianity don't actual understand it and need to get their information about it from sources other than Hollywood. Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell do not embody the average fundamentalist, but the "tolerant" left, which isn't all the left, like to think they do.

I'm a big fan of sports (Go Spurs!), movies (See Serenity!), and television (Watch anything involving Tim Minear).

I look forward to getting bashed in debates on this site.

BTW, I drive a Buick Le Sabre, so fast cars aren't really my thing.
Posted by javelin (Member # 1284) on :
I just joined and found this thread so I thought I'd post about me. No one will probably read it, but thats fine, most people find me boring.
Welcome to Ornery - you are wrong.

I read it [Big Grin] - and there is your traditional greating! Welcome!

p.s. - I like your movie and tv picks [Smile]

[ October 06, 2005, 03:10 PM: Message edited by: javelin ]
Posted by Kent (Member # 832) on :
Aerto, I hope you stick around. WELCOME!
Posted by Chael (Member # 2436) on :
Heyla. [Smile]

...Not that I'm going to stop lurking for the majority of the time or any such thing, but I thought it only polite to introduce myself, given that I've become a little less nervous about sticking my neck out and posting. First of all, I had no idea that this name actually meant something (I should have researched the pleasing combination of consonants and vowels before choosing it), so please don't hold it against me. Or for me. Ah, and I'm female, despite the apparent gender of the name--no, I didn't notice /that/, either.

I'm a musician (classical guitar) in my mid-twenties, and a current student (though not for very much longer), teacher (bafflingly enough), and performer. Composing's stuck at the wayside for the moment. I'm also fascinated by linguistics, religions, politics, stories, and other people's worldviews--assuming they don't outright repel me; I'm imperfect. I enjoy most written science fiction, too, preferably the older stuff; I created this account because I couldn't resist a Heinlein thread. Firefly's the first science fiction series I've enjoyed since B5 (Voyager killed Star Trek for me), and I'm rather annoyed that 'they' yanked it before I knew it existed. --Politically, I'm odd; religiously, I'm likewise. I'm a writer--because I write, not because I'm published. I live in the US (Texas, to be precise). I've done some travelling, but not enough.

I'm also just perceptive enough to notice that this is a terribly disconnected grouping of facts. [Wink]

Posted by Pyrtolin (Member # 2638) on :
Since it seems that it would be good manners to introduce myself before getting into the mix, I'll put my first post here.

I've got a BS in Electical and Computer Engineering that I put to very little use in my computer support and consulting jobe at Carnegie Mellon, and have always enjoyed learning for its own sake, and try to know enough about as many topics as possible to understand what's going on when more knowledgable folks talk about them.

I consider my self a little left of center on most topics, particuarly social ones, but not very extreme in most cases. Most of all I enjoy reading well reasoned arguments from all sides of an issue, or even not so well reasoned ones, just so long as they lend additional perspectives that I can use to evaluate my own beliefs. (Maybe even a bit compulsive in that regard- I had to read the entire World Watch archive once I got myself started on them, because of, rather than despite the points that I disagreed with.)

I'm not religious, though I do have a vague sense of spirituality, but definitly support free practice of most any religious belief, though I find it frustrating to see people that profess a belief but don't actually know anything about it.

I'd like to think that most of my opinions are informed, but I know that there's a lot of information out there that I haven't seen yet. I enjoy being wrong and seeing why just as much as helping someone else understand why I might just be right.

I look forward to getting to know the people here,

Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on :
Welcome Aerto (so at least two people read about you, and Jav gave you the traditional welcome. If you're confused about that check the first post by Funean on the World Watch side of the forum) And Serenity, Buffy, and Angel rule. I admit though I had to ask my wife who Tim Minear was. I always thought Joss Whedon did it all on his own.

Welcome, Chael, as I said above I love Serenity/Firefly too. And we can always use more women here on OA. I'm in Texas too. League City, about halfway between Houston and Galveston.

And welcome Karl judging from your intro you've come to the right place. I too love to learn, and I've learned a lot since coming here.

Posted by Paladine (Member # 1932) on :
Welcome, all. [Wink]
Posted by Chael (Member # 2436) on :
Heya, KE!

Many thanks for the welcome. Sorry I didn't respond to you in the Serenity thread, by the way; I was waiting until the confusion over the person borrowing your name was over, and by that point it didn't seem really germane any longer. [Smile]

I'm in the sprawl that is Dallas. Nice to meet another Texan (*tip o' the nonexistant cap*). I didn't realize how much I self-identified with the state until I started pondering changing my residency. [Wink]
Posted by Redskullvw (Member # 188) on :
WP not having ever read page one of this thread made me laugh, reminded me to read the last couple of pages of this thread, and formally say hi to all those who joined in and were brave enough to reveal humanizing datum about their part of the universe.

Oh and WP, read more closely and fish the archives before you jump to any conclusions.
Posted by Athelstan (Member # 2566) on :
Thought I’d better introduce myself. Might be useful for those having trouble sleeping. I choose the name Athelstan not through any regal pretensions but for the fact that as Athelstan could claim to be the first Englishman he must also be the oldest.

I was born in London shortly after the end of WWII and played amongst the bomb rubble without knowing what it was. I thought the term bombsite meant playground. I heard Ozzie Osbourne say something similar. I grew up hearing stories of the Blitz and meeting the people who lived through it.

I’ve seen the Beatles & Stones play live when they and I were young. I took part in the real life Quadrophina but Sting would not have been on my side. My pride and joy was my Pre-unit construction Triumph Bonneville.

I’ve been a Shop Steward in a Nationalised Industry and the owner of my own Plumbing & Heating business. Married to the same woman for 37 years and have a daughter, son, granddaughter and a grandson.

Present interests Family History (no it really is interesting – thanks LDS) and renovating houses. At the moment I’m trying to get out of plastering.

I now live in Hampshire and outside is a sunny day. We seem to be getting the benefits of Global Warming at the moment. Is this turning in to a CV.

Anyone still awake.

My personal definition of Ornery

I write, “I love my Mum”
Someone replies, “It depends what you mean by term “love”.
Posted by cperry (Member # 1938) on :
Welcome, Athelstan.
Posted by javelin (Member # 1284) on :
My personal definition of Ornery

I write, “I love my Mum”
Someone replies, “It depends what you mean by term “love”.

Beautiful. Welcome, Athelstan!
Posted by wide-eyed_wonder_child (Member # 2645) on :
Hey all! I'm only 16 (hence the child), quite an idealist (hence the wide-eyed) and I ask an awful lot of questions (hence the wonder.) My political leanings are a bit muddled, probably because I've never really managed to learn about politics in general. I refer to myself as a scary liberal child in my most common political forum (the AP English classroom) because most of my fellow nerds are conservative, but I'm open to suggestion. Really, I'm just here to learn a bit more so I don't sound quite so stupid. Really, I am pretty smart. Really.

I've been raised Catholic, but I have some pretty odd views on religion, and on what I consider myself to be.

I'm a junior in high school, taking mostly honors/college prep/ AP classes, and I hope to teach music or be a music therapist, and of course keep on writing my zany fictions. My four favorite authors are Orson Scott Card, Robert A. Heinlien, Ralph Waldo Emerson, and Henry David Thoreau. I also hve a blog on under the name shealawind that you're free to check out, but it more often discusses events within my little circle of friends than events of the world.

"A foolish consistancy is the hobgoblin of little minds..." -Ralph Waldo Emerson, "Self-Reliance"
Posted by frcisafraud (Member # 2646) on :
Welcome, I am new myself. I do however have some strong political views and a basic freedom education.

I enjoy to continue learning and sharing that which I know to be true as well.
..How far down the rabbit hole do we want to go?

Oh and excuse my poor gramar, writing, punctuation, etc. I will not submitt to the writers forum any time soon.

[ October 23, 2005, 03:57 PM: Message edited by: frcisafraud ]
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on :
Welcome, to OA Child. Please remember that this is mostly an adult forum and I/we apologize if we are too crude. It might help if you reminded us once an a while that younger people are members tooo.

Welcome to OA. Can't wait to hear your "strong political views", fire way! And don't worry, most of the American born members here on OA can't speak or write english very well either.

Posted by Zyne (Member # 117) on :
Hey all! I'm only 16 (hence the child), quite an idealist (hence the wide-eyed) and I ask an awful lot of questions (hence the wonder.)
Yes, but that doesn't explain the underscores. Tricky...

Don't let the conservatives get to you. They're wrong. And check out Phillip K. Dick, I think that you'll like him.

How far down the rabbit hole do we want to go?
See no rabbit hole, hear no rabbit hole, get no rabbit hole dirt in mouth.
Posted by javelin (Member # 1284) on :
Don't let the conservatives get to you. They're wrong.
Be careful about a group of people who say this and get pissed off at others for being "close-minded" [Big Grin]
Posted by Kalami (Member # 2637) on :
Hi, I'm Kalami, I'm a college junior at a small private school. It's a pretty unique school - we do only the Great Books for all four years (everyone takes the same classes), and all classes are held as small seminars (15-18 people). At the moment I'm studying Aristotle, Descartes, Paschal, Galileo...all from the original texts, no textbook summaries. I'm a Catholic, Republican (though my knowledge of politics is pretty lacking at the moment) my interests are philosophy, ethics, and ping pong (actually, I just learned how to play last week so now I'm kind of obsessed with it now!). I watch alot of movies but not much favorites bands at the moment are Keane and Aqualung...

I heard about this site from my brother, checked it out, and lots of things about it intrigued me - especially the variety of opinions and high level of intelligence of the members. So...I joined! It's good to be here!

Oh and by the way, I've read most of OSC's books, and loved them.
Posted by WarrsawPact (Member # 1275) on :
This site sure attracts a lot of Catholics (current and past).

Welcome to all the recent new Ornerians. "Wide-eyed wonder child," don't worry about being young -- I'm young (20 now, but I started out on Ornery two years ago) and widely considered to be pretty smart too. And I hold my own. How you behave is much more important, especially on the internet, than how old you are.

What you should worry about is being an idealist. When idealists get a beating from a corner of reality they didn't want to look at, it's not a pretty sight.

Idealists are also less likely, in my opinion, to actually practice the humility required to admit that they may be mistaken. True pragmatists can't help but pay attention to inconsistencies in their view of reality when they become apparent, and they try to learn from those they disagree with. I, for example, actively seek out the opinions of those who disagree with me, and value my resourceful opponents in many cases more than I value friends. Only a pragmatist allows his opponents to make him stronger.

But why would an idealist need to compromise, or become familiar with the modes of thinking of his opponents? An idealist has already made up his mind, and so is immovable.

I'd also point to the many times in history that travesties have been visited on the world by armies of idealists. It is difficult to motivate large groups of pragmatists to do something crazy (because you can't fool all the people all the time), but anyone can convince groups of idealists to ignore either the ends or the means.

Kalami - I'm probably the opposite of you in my reading. I don't read the Great Books, though I'm somewhat familiar with several of the "great" dead men. Should be interesting to watch your posts.

[ October 27, 2005, 01:50 AM: Message edited by: WarrsawPact ]
Posted by Paladine (Member # 1932) on :
Welcome aboard, all. [Wink]
Posted by Kalami (Member # 2637) on :
WarsawPact, you should check out those "great dead men" sometime. They've got alot more wisdom than I would have ever thought possible. And it's incredibly helpful to have read them before starting the moderns (which I'll be starting next semester), because studying philosophy in basic chronological order makes understanding the ideas and where they're coming from a heck of alot easier. You get a bird's eye view of human thought through the millenia... But at the moment, I've read mostly ancients, and very little of the moderns, so I apologize if my lack of knowledge in that area is scanty. I won't be getting to the moderns til next semseter this year and next year.

So kind of reading have you done? What books do you like?

And thanks for the welcome, Paladine!
Posted by WarrsawPact (Member # 1275) on :
Recent books I've read that I really like:

"The Transparent Society" by David Brin
and I absolutely adore "The Shield of Achilles" by Philip Bobbitt. Must-read.

studying philosophy in basic chronological order makes understanding the ideas and where they're coming from a heck of alot easier
Meh. I understood what I was being taught in philosophy/ethics, and I made a spectacular show tearing down the Greats in my Honors Ethics class. So good a show that I just had my professor from that class write a "stellar" recommendation for me.

I'm a hard determinist, which is absurdly unpopular, but I defend it very competently.

I've got some respect for some great dead men from the old days, like Pericles, but most of the lot were worthless from what I saw. Every philosophy, when you broke it down, assumed and identified a Good... in other words, they were moralist tracts, no different in that regard than so many religious texts.
The best thing that came out of those Greats was the neo-Western propensity for questioning and skepticism. That was absolutely fundamental, a method and practice that has made human civilization remarkably sane.

The rest of what I've read so far was trash.
Maybe you, having some real experience, could point me towards the good stuff.
Posted by Paladine (Member # 1932) on :

Do you go to school down at St. John's? I was looking into it myself, but unfortunately decided to settle for something a bit more conventional. It looked and sounded quite fascinating though. [Wink]



Maybe these are new threads, but what the hell...

What you should worry about is being an idealist. When idealists get a beating from a corner of reality they didn't want to look at, it's not a pretty sight.

Idealists are also less likely, in my opinion, to actually practice the humility required to admit that they may be mistaken. True pragmatists can't help but pay attention to inconsistencies in their view of reality when they become apparent, and they try to learn from those they disagree with. I, for example, actively seek out the opinions of those who disagree with me, and value my resourceful opponents in many cases more than I value friends. Only a pragmatist allows his opponents to make him stronger.

But why would an idealist need to compromise, or become familiar with the modes of thinking of his opponents? An idealist has already made up his mind, and so is immovable.

I'd also point to the many times in history that travesties have been visited on the world by armies of idealists. It is difficult to motivate large groups of pragmatists to do something crazy (because you can't fool all the people all the time), but anyone can convince groups of idealists to ignore either the ends or the means.

I don't find either of these labels to be particularly helpful. Idealism and pragmatism exist, as most things do, on a continuum. It's quite possible (and I'd argue desireable) to hold a generally pragmatic worldview that is informed by ideals and principles. It seems to me that an absolute insistance on pragmatism at the expense of idealism is itself idealistic (in the undesireable sense of the term), and accordingly, to be avoided by an avowed pragmatist. [Wink]

I'm a hard determinist, which is absurdly unpopular, but I defend it very competently.
I'd like to see a thread on this one. If you care to, explain your position here and perhaps we'll have a go at it.

Every philosophy, when you broke it down, assumed and identified a Good... in other words, they were moralist tracts, no different in that regard than so many religious texts.
Human thought and belief are fundamentally evaluative functions that require some assumed "good" from which to build, even if said "good" is simply a matter of what you would call utility. To dismiss a thought because it assumes certain things to be "good" is to dismiss all thought.
Posted by WarrsawPact (Member # 1275) on :
Making a new thread now.
Posted by Kalami (Member # 2637) on :
Human thought and belief are fundamentally evaluative functions that require some assumed "good" from which to build, even if said "good" is simply a matter of what you would call utility. To dismiss a thought because it assumes certain things to be "good" is to dismiss all thought.
Exactly. To say that men search the good is not to make any claims about religion or ethics.

Actually, Paladine, the school I'm going to is very similar to St. John's. Thomas Aquinas College in Southern California...heard of it? Alot of our founders used to be professors or students at St. Johns, as a matter of fact.

[ October 28, 2005, 03:18 PM: Message edited by: Kalami ]
Posted by cperry (Member # 1938) on :
I considered St. John's when I was a junior/senior making up my mind and not knowing where my nat'l merit $ would count the most. It would have been a good choice. I regret not trying to make it work.
Posted by FIJC (Member # 1092) on :
"Actually, Paladine, the school I'm going to is very similar to St. John's. Thomas Aquinas College in Southern California...heard of it? Alot of our founders used to be professors or students at St. Johns, as a matter of fact."
LOL, who hasn't heard of Thomas Aquinas College? [Smile] I used to interact a lot with Thomas Aquinas students back in the day (1999-2003) when I used to attend the YAF (Young America's Foundation) conferences in DC. Thomas Aquinas students were always the overly brainy ones. [Big Grin]
Posted by Kalami (Member # 2637) on :
Lol! Too much Aristotle does strange things to the mind... [Smile]
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on :
FIJC, you are too young to have had a "back in the day". It's more like "the other day". [Wink]

Posted by FIJC (Member # 1092) on :
[quote["FIJC, you are too young to have had a "back in the day". It's more like "the other day".


Yeah, I know that was really only a few years ago...but I think I am a different person from then. Even from a year ago, my interests have changed and I have grown up a lot.
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on :
That's great FIJC. Sounds like you are growing and changing. Not a lot of people do that. Not enough people work/think about who they are to do that.

Posted by potemkyn (Member # 1040) on :
"the school I'm going to is very similar to St. John's. Thomas Aquinas College in Southern California."

Interesting, I've visted St. John's before. It boggled my mind how many of those very intelligent and intellectual people smoked on a regular basis. Didn't get it at all. I hope your peers in SOCAL are a bit more sensible.
Posted by Kalami (Member # 2637) on :
Nope, we've got a pretty substantial smoking contingent here. I personally never took it up, even though I don't really have a problem with the idea of an occasional cigarette, because the thought of possibly getting addicted to nicotine was not so appealing. [Smile]
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on :
In Houston they stop selling liquor after 2 am and when I wanted to keep my buzz going I would smoke a cigarrette or three. Those three cigarrettes would mess me up more than all the Crown Royal and Sevens I'd been drinking all night. But the next day my mouth tasted like an ashtray, my fingers and clothers stank, and I always had a worse headache after smoking. And I NEVER felt the physical urge to smoke again the next day.

Also, I'm not really crazy about the affect alcohol has on me. I used to drink it to get drunk, but I'd much rather take a codine tablet or three. And I've never gotten in a fight, nor hurt anybody while on codine. To the contrary; I would be happy, calm, and talkative.


[ November 11, 2005, 02:07 PM: Message edited by: KnightEnder ]
Posted by Dutchie (Member # 2690) on :
Originally posted by WarrsawPact:
I'm young (20 now, but I started out on Ornery two years ago) and too.

Posted by Dutchie (Member # 2690) on :
I'm a highschool teacher from the Netherlands, the country which is your best pal in the war on terror! We also buy all your military hardware! This is something I'm not happy with, yes, I'm European and from the left too! (Your worst nightmare? [Wink] )

I was raised roman catholic, but now .... well I think I'm part of the largest religion in Europe .... Somethingism! [Wink] One can identify the average Somethingist mainly through the following statement "Well, eerh, i don't *reelly* believe in God, I think there must be Something out there ..." [Wink]

I'm not very sporty, of course I enjoy to watch football, I'm a guy, but I don't do much myself. I enjoy to go to musea and plays and films.

Originally posted by WarrsawPact:
I'm young (20 now, but I started out on Ornery two years ago) and widely considered to be pretty smart too.

And pretty modest too? Can we see some rove on that? some website? [Wink] sorry, I know I'm new, but I caught my eye and I couldn't resist ... This kind of self-advertisement is utterly strange to Dutch people. I assume that this is quite normal to Americans?
Posted by kelcimer (Member # 1221) on :
Welcome Dutchie!

It's great to have more Europeans on this board.
I know I'm new, but I caught my eye and I couldn't resist ... This kind of self-advertisement is utterly strange to Dutch people. I assume that this is quite normal to Americans?
Hadn't ever thought of something like what Warrsaw said as being necessarily out of the ordinary, so I guess it's normal enough.
Posted by roper66 (Member # 2694) on :
Hello all,

After Gracie, the Nauvoo forum mod, slapped me upside the head for "debating" too much on her forum, she demurely suggested I might like to "suit up and take my licks" on OA. So here I am, though in all fairness, I wasn't "debating" that much, I just wanted someone to provide a rational justification for a particular point of view :grumble:

Married with food-consumption-unit #4 arriving in February.

I was an Air Force intelligence officer in my first career. Roper was my C-130 cross-country callsign. Now I'm employed by the city as a public health educator. I teach disaster prep to community and professional groups.

In January, I start a graduate degree in education. I'm a bit apprehensive about going back to school after all these years.

I guess that's about it.

[ December 08, 2005, 05:16 PM: Message edited by: roper66 ]
Posted by WarrsawPact (Member # 1275) on :
Haha, excellent, roper. "Suit up and take your licks."
This can certainly be a good place for that, and I'm sure most of us will be glad to have you.
Dutchie -
I'm young (20 now, but I started out on Ornery two years ago) and widely considered to be pretty smart too.

And pretty modest too? Can we see some rove on that? some website? [Wink] sorry, I know I'm new, but I caught my eye and I couldn't resist ... This kind of self-advertisement is utterly strange to Dutch people. I assume that this is quite normal to Americans?

Eh. I tell it like it is: people I meet and who get to know me aren't at all abashed to point out that they consider me smart. This includes many of the adults I meet, including almost all of my professors.

So why deny it? It's not as if I'm saying I'm never wrong -- indeed, I often find out I was mistaken about something I used to think I knew.
Posted by FIJC (Member # 1092) on :
"Eh. I tell it like it is: people I meet and who get to know me aren't at all abashed to point out that they consider me smart. This includes many of the adults I meet, including almost all of my professors.

So why deny it? It's not as if I'm saying I'm never wrong -- indeed, I often find out I was mistaken about something I used to think I knew."

You are very smart...your coming to DC should be a very interesting and good predictor of how far your talents will be able to project you. I think that in general, the East coast/DC area is so different from west coast/CA culture. People aren't as laidback and everything here is so button-down and formal. That, and you have a very considerable concentration of ambitious and very intelligent people (imagine your AP government class expanded ten-fold_. The competition here is fierce, especially for jobs. I have come to believe that since everyone here tends to be very "book smart" what actually gets you ahead out here is your ability to build good rapport with people and having wisdom.
Posted by Oculus (Member # 2696) on :
Good day all! My name is Brian and I hail from the good 'ole state of Texas. I am a student at a private university but not for much longer as I will be graduating in May. Yea! First and foremost I am a believer in and follower of Christ but do not think for a second that, because of this, I am some mindless person who follows what their preacher tells them. I like to think things through for myself and come to my own conclusions based on evidence. I do not like to put labels on myself as they cannot fully describe who I am but just so you get a sense of where I stand, I am a moderate-conservative. I love to be outside and active but I also like to read a good book, fiction or non, or play a good board game. I also like to get out and have a good time with friends as well. I consider myself an optimistic-realist. I really enjoy a good point-counterpoint so I guess that is why I am here. To close I will leave you with one of my favorite quotes. This really gives a good description of how I view life.

"The longer I live, the more I realize the impact of attitude on life. Attitude, to me, is more important than facts. It is more important than the past, than education, than money, than circumstances, than failures, than successes, than what other people think or say or do. It is more important than appearance, giftedness or skill. It will make or break a company, a church, a home. The remarkable thing is we have a choice everyday regarding the attitude we will embrace for that day. We cannot change our past, we cannot change the fact that people will act in a certain way. We cannot change the inevitable. The only thing we can do is play on the one string we have, and that is our attitude. I am convinced that life is 10% what happens to me and 90% how I react to it. And so it is with you...we are in charge of our attitudes."

Charles Swindoll

Posted by FiredrakeRAGE (Member # 1224) on :
Oculus -

What're you studying in school?

Posted by Quaestor (Member # 2553) on :
Greetings and welcome, Oculus. I second Firedrake's question and stretch it to include university.

I like Swindoll; he's a neat character. My aunt and her family attends his megachurch out there in Dallas.
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on :
First and foremost I am a believer in and follower of Christ but do not think for a second that, because of this, I am some mindless person who follows what their preacher tells them.
Welcome Oculus. I'm in Texas too. Houston. Or more accurately League City. I'm an agnostic and or atheist depending on how frustrated the person I'm talking to gets me, so I look forward to discussing what you said above in the future.

Posted by Gemini (Member # 2708) on :
Hello all,

I am a complete newcomer to the Ornery American and will most likely be lurking and studying, at least for now. I like the rules and atmosphere here so far.

I'm 42, married, with a couple kids. I'm also a Yankee, from Rhode Island. I have a civil libertarian bent politically and am an atheist.
I work at a major liberal university in medical services research.

I value honest, intellectually sharp debate very much, but see no reason why such debate should ever need to be uncivil. I have many opinions but few items of dogma and I pride myself on being in a fairly permanent state of gradual evolution in my beliefs.

I look forward very much to reading more of what you all have to say. Hello and Happy New Year to all.


[ January 05, 2006, 12:04 PM: Message edited by: Gemini ]
Posted by javelin (Member # 1284) on :
Welcome, Gemini! I'll wait till you post in a thread to give ya the traditional welcome. [Big Grin]
Posted by valkyrie (Member # 2700) on :
Greetings all.

I'm writing to you from Montpelier, the smallest state capital in the country. I don't love fast cars--in fact I walk to work and almost everywhere else I need to go. When I need to get to Burlington I hitchhike, though this won't do the trick this coming spring when I start taking classes there.

I'm 28, returning to school as a geography major after a 7-year hiatus during which I traveled the world and learned valuable nonacademic skills like house building (mud, wood, and straw bale), gardening, and general survival. I grew up a rather protected young girl in upstate New York. I am passionate about music of many eclectic varieties (currently I'm in love with Vasen, a trio of avant-folk musicians from Sweden). I play clarinet, flute, and tenor sax, and the closest I've ever come to being Christian is losing myself in the glorious harmonies of a shape note sing.

Politically I am disenfranchised. I am most concerned about America's energy policy, or lack thereof. There are no leaders I know of willing to address the potential crises following on our insane willingness to base our economy on automobiles for everybody.

I'm psyched about this forum. Bonjour et bonne annee!

Posted by kelcimer (Member # 1221) on :
Welcome aboard!
Posted by kelcimer (Member # 1221) on :

Welcome aboard!
Posted by Zyne (Member # 117) on :
valkyrie: Welcome!
Posted by valkyrie (Member # 2700) on :
hey, thanks.
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on :
Welcome Gemeni, Valkyrie, and all our other new members. Please dive right in. The more the merrier. Although, somebody should warn you that we aren't like most websites. We require proof, unless you state it as your opinion, and we treat each other with respect no matter what the belief or political affiliation.

Posted by valkyrie (Member # 2700) on :
Y'know when I was a teenager I was often on a website called "pathfinder." (This is about ten years ago. The broze age of the internet.) People were pretty respectful then. Since then I've been computerless, living instead with a backpack, trekking around the world. So your warning amuses me. Things have changed a lot since then I guess.
Posted by Redskullvw (Member # 188) on :
Things have largely changed in terms of quantity and quality available on the internet. I think however that this particular space of the internet has largely maintained its standards, become better over all, and certainly reached a pretty diverse membership that has decide to officially register. I think its still a remarkable site, just not one which is widely known, or if it is known, one that lives up to the unjustified reputation it sometimes has. All in all each person who joins here is still regarded as a valued contributer and member even if they post only once or every single hour.

Anyway welcome to Ornery, you are wrong!
Posted by CasualObserver (Member # 2783) on :
So, hello.
I'm a college student in engineering. Looking back, I'd say I entered college libertarian (tho I doubt I'd heard the term before), but the leftist machine that is today's respected universities has done it's job well with me and I'm now quite the typical liberal.

I love love love questioning the fundamentals, exploring identity, especially my own, and forcing myself to grow and change. Religion is irrelevant to all that for me.

Really I am hoping someone can point me the way to a support group for people who've had the same favorite books since 4th grade (Ender's Game et al) and have just discovered their author to be personally opposed to everything they believe in.

I could be exaggerating. His article on gay marriage really depressed me.

[ February 17, 2006, 07:00 AM: Message edited by: CasualObserver ]
Posted by Funean (Member # 2345) on :
Hee hee, lots of us end up here that way, Casual Observer. Reassuringly, though, if you read some of the threads over on World Watch, you'll find that even the folks who agree with OSC's positions often find the way he constructs his arguments troubling.

I'll agree with RedskullW's comments just above yours that this is a fairly remarkable site, and a good place for a "questioner" who's prepared to debate ideas respectfully and throroughly with others possessing a wide variety of viewpoints.

Oh, and welcome to Ornery! You are, of course, wrong.
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on :
Welcome CO. Ender's Game is my favorite book, too. And I felt/feel just as you do now so if your looking for a support group, you've found us. The good news is that the book and OSC seem to attract a very diverse group, and many of them are very very smart, and almost all of them are very respectful and good people at heart. Some of the best people here are totally insane when it comes to their political and world view. [Wink] And then there is Funean, the only person ever to be loved by every single member of OA. [Smile]

I guess you know that "Welcome to Ornery, you are wrong" is the traditional greeting? No reflection on you or your post. Hope to see you around. Welcome to Ornery...

Posted by WarrsawPact (Member # 1275) on :
It's okay Casual Observer, a lot of us libertarians are still looking for a way to reclaim the word "liberal" and make it mean the same thing it means everywhere outside of the developed West: free markets and free people.
Posted by Jesse (Member # 1860) on :
Loved by every single member of OA? Sounds like a tiring day [Smile]
Posted by WarrsawPact (Member # 1275) on :
I dunno... is it hard work, trying to convert Hell into an ice rink?
Posted by Alien Agent (Member # 2805) on :

Mark C. Bakersfield, Cailfornia. Age: 23. Simply put, as I spend more time here, a lot of you may like me less and less, as I do not like being nice. It's hard for me to be nice, why? I don't exaclty know why, but it just is. Opinions exist. Anyway, I have a simple standpoint of common sense and since tolerance for incompetance for me is an absolute zero, I shall SMITE all who oppose the meaning of 'coexistance.' And you probably don't know what in the world i'm talking about so i'll sum it up fast. I am evil. Deal with it.

[ March 03, 2006, 07:11 PM: Message edited by: Alien Agent ]
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on :
Welcome to OA. [Smile]

Posted by FuzzyBink (Member # 2823) on :
Hello All,

I recently joined Hatrack as well (which means that I, like many, am a major fan of OSC). I'm a student in Chicago. I would describe myself as classicially conservative, but I'm not sure if I like any of the parties enough to join them. I would have voted for Goldwater, my theory of economy is of the Austrian model, and Rep. Ron Paul is my political hero. My typical answer to most political issues is: Must this be a federal issue? Can't the states take care of it?

However, my beliefs can change and I am very open-minded. I really don't understand those who are completely dictated by ideology. In terms of foreign policy, I am a dove and advocate free trade of all kinds, but, once again, I am still unresolved on a lot of issues. I definitely don't believe in extensive cultural relativism though.

I also like discussing pop culture, literature, and all sorts of randomness! Looking forward to getting to know you all.

Posted by javelin (Member # 1284) on :
Welcome, FuzzyBink! We'll give you the more traditional welcome once you've posted on a particular thread subject. [Big Grin] [Wink]
Posted by StephenJK (Member # 2829) on :
I am a college student in college, undeclared, and living in the Houston area (sugar land, tx). I am 23 years old. My beliefs are closest to Tao, but I'm not sure if you could call me a Taoist for I have not lived The Way.

I am an independant politically and am willing to listen to any argument that has their facts straight (but that's usually not the case).

I just joined this site, but have been reading OSC's articles for a few months now.
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on :
Welcome Stephen. I've already given you the official greeting on the World Watch side. I too am in Texas; League City.

Posted by dwaylay (Member # 2841) on :
My name is Derek. College student who is currently finding things to do when not in school. Cherokee. Left libertarian by the political compass. Like categories but know about different shades of grey. 21 and divorced. Eyes so bad nearly legally blind whatever that means.Tahlequah Ok.

[ March 28, 2006, 02:15 PM: Message edited by: dwaylay ]
Posted by RP. (Member # 2840) on :
Hello, all. I'm RP., I am currently an articled clerk and will be called to the bar of Prince Edward Island around the end of June. It looks as though most of the people on this forum are rightists, so I expect there'll be some good discussions.

My wife's been buying me OSC books every year for my birthday, and I have mostly enjoyed them. There's quite a difference in writing style, I find, between his columns and his books.
Posted by DaveS (Member # 2734) on :
most of the people on this forum are rightists
...but not all [Wink]
Posted by javelin (Member # 1284) on :
Originally posted by DaveS:
most of the people on this forum are rightists
...but not all [Wink]
Or even most.
Posted by UnAmericanYOU (Member # 2845) on :
Hi, another new member here.

Liked the name of the site, so I lurked for awhile then joined.
Posted by ngthagg (Member # 2737) on :
I suppose I should get around to introducing myself sometime. Like now. My name is Kevin and I live in the Ture North, Strong and Free. I guess I'm right wing, although I would much rather be a leftie, except the lefties in my country have all the wrong political goals and beliefs. My parents were shocked, actually, to discover how right wing I had become. They were quite active in the local NDP party when they were younger. I tried to explain that with a left wing establishment in the country, right was the new left, but they didn't really get it. I'm here mostly because my thoughts, especially on important topics, get circular without fresh input. Also, I hate logical fallacies. I will respect everyone except those who have troubles with first year logic.

Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on :
Welcome to OA! You are all wrong! [Smile]

Posted by Random Paper (Member # 2800) on :
Hello all I've been an avid fan of OSC for years now. I love to read whatevers intresting and I find this site especially entertaining. Found it not to long ago and now I cant keep from visiting for to long. Looking forward to enlighting conversations.
Posted by Coatesie (Member # 2854) on :
Howdy, all. I live in Chicago, where I provide editorial services. I'm a big fan of the writings of Ludwig von Mises and Murray Rothbard, and would probably classify myself as "classically liberal" if the term "liberal" in isolation hadn't come to mean nearly the opposite

My favorite presidents from history are Grover Cleveland and Calvin Coolidge.

I love the Cubs.

I've been working on reading the Alvin Maker series for a while, but I haven't been able to find a copy of the third book yet.
Posted by kelcimer (Member # 1221) on :
Welcome Random Paper and Coatesie!

You're both wrong! [Big Grin]
Posted by javelin (Member # 1284) on :
Here's a link to pickup book #3, Coatesie - there are some cheap used copies too:

Posted by RickyB (Member # 1464) on :
I'm sorry, your first to second favorite president is... Calvin Coolidge???

Not to put you on the spot, but just for curiosity's sake - care to explain?
Posted by The Drake (Member # 2128) on :
Probably harder to explain being a Cubs fan. [Smile]

Posted by livermeer kenmaile (Member # 2855) on :
I grew up on the NW side of Chicago.

The allure of the perennially losing Cubs is like that of the old Brooklynn Didgers.

One adores thwe Cubs and fears the Lincoln Park pirates...
Posted by livermeer kenmaile (Member # 2855) on :
'Brooklynn Didgers'

That's just WRONG.
Posted by cperry (Member # 1938) on :
I kinda like "didgers." I mean, what's a dodger anyway? Is that really a good thing, in baseball? Don't they want to catch the ball, not dodge it?
Posted by livermeer kenmaile (Member # 2855) on :
I think they meant Dodgers like Dickens did in Oliver Twist: a street-savvy ruffian. Brooklynn, you know.
Posted by TheMiser3 (Member # 2838) on :
Hi there, I'm new to this whole thing, I had a friend get me involved in it and I've enjoyed reading the topics and being able to post my own opinions. I'm currently somewhere in the middle of a big pile of crap called indiana. Moving shortly to a different part of the pile of crap called indiana for the summer. I would consider myself liberal to moderate. Thats all you really need to know.. If you want to know anything else, just ask.
Posted by Liberal (Member # 2888) on :
Hi, I was drawn to this site because I am an avid fan of Mr. Card's fiction, yet quite opposed to the political commentary he writes. I was expecting this to be a stodgy conservatively-biased board, and after lurking a while there IS an overall conservative/libertarian bias, but it is only slight, and I am surprised at the level of civil discourse.

I am a chemist from Portland, Oregon. I have a masters in biochemistry and am working on a PhD in biochemical engineering.

My personal political outlook is unbiased when I evaluate things, but I usually tend to wind up with a liberal perspective. I guess I believe humans are very connected and that government should reflect that.

I look forward to conversing with you all!
Posted by RickyB (Member # 1464) on :
You non-New Yorkers... [Big Grin]

Back in the 19th century, they had streetcars in ole Crooklyn, and people from the borough were famous for their acquired ability to dodge through the traffic. Hence, the name "Dodgers".

Cursed be the name of Walter O'Malley forever and ever!
Posted by javelin (Member # 1284) on :
Liberal - WELCOME! I also hail from the beautiful city of Portland, OR - I'm one of our local "techies" - in the area of application development.

Hope we hear more from you.
Posted by Redskullvw (Member # 188) on :
Welcome to the new faces.
Posted by Alexi (Member # 2894) on :
I guess you want to know who the heck I am.

I am 19, white, male, located in Michigan (I tell people Russia, because I like the idea), studying two of the most jobless professions available, theater performance and film, and interested in just about everything. People who say I am smart are the same that think parrots know what they are saying, though occassionally I think an original thought, and the world ends.

My car is a Ford, non-truck, non-fast POS, and is currently broken. My political stance is that political stances divide people who need unity more than anything else, and therefore should be abolished. I type fairly accurately for one who thinks spell check is for those dumb efficient people.

Why am I here? I would like to say because I am interested in what you folks think, and want to put in my input. But in my heart of hearts, I realize that I am only doing this because this is how Peter Wiggin got his start on the way to world domination in Ender's Game, and Peter Wiggin is more like me than any character in literature (except I never really tormented my little brother). Yeah, I read OSC. Haven't liked anything better than Ender's Game though. Dune was close, but not quite.
Posted by Alexi (Member # 2894) on :
(I know that Dune is Frank Herbert, not OSC. I realise on second reading that this may not have been clear before.)
Posted by cperry (Member # 1938) on :
Hello Alexi. Welcome to Ornery. You're wrong.
Posted by winkey151 (Member # 2910) on :
Hello... I am an old grandma from Virginia. I love music, cooking, art, politics, my country, my husband, my children, my grandchildren and the people that God has blessed me with in my life.
I stumbled upon this board by reading one of Mr.Cards books and posting about it on another forum. To my delight another member mentioned this website. So here I am.
I am liking what I am seeing so far. [Big Grin]

Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on :
Posted by javelin (Member # 1284) on :
Welcome, Winkey!
Posted by winkey151 (Member # 2910) on :
You say that now... [Smile]

Thanks guys.
Posted by Funean (Member # 2345) on :
Another female, glory shout.

Welcome, winkey! [Smile]
Posted by hobsen (Member # 2923) on :
Hobsen is a surname used by some families, probably a variant of Hobson by people who had difficulty in spelling. The meaning might be "good son;" I chose it simply to be short, unique and inoffensive. My actual surname means "powerful as a pig," which might be more appropriate for The Ornery American.

Anyway I am a grandfather approaching seventy, a retiree from a career in computer operations, and a resident of northern California.
Posted by javelin (Member # 1284) on :
Welcome, hobsen! Hope to see you around!
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on :
Welcome to Ornery. You are wrong.

Stick around and we'll tell you why. [Smile]


[ July 05, 2006, 01:21 AM: Message edited by: KnightEnder ]
Posted by wannabersc (Member # 2960) on :
Hi guys, gals and others,

42 yr old male, Union Boilermaker (not a drink),weldor, fabricator, mechanic, high rigger. Father of a beautifull 16 yr old girl who is much brighter than I.
4 yrs tech via U.S. Navy & Union (3/1 ratio), 37 yrs Universal School of Hard Knocks... no degree as yet.

Politically active, un-affiliated. Am an American, not some Party animal. To put it bluntly, both parties have p-ssed me off. Their orchestrated tyranny, rank stupidity and (oddly enough) thoughtfull treason have pushed me to look else where. Can't hold them in contempt, they are smart and know exactlly what they do to myself, my Country and Her Constitution.

Firmly believe we need r/d to replace present internal combustion/petro chemical driven societal noose. We must move on. No more payments to ME countries that in turn wage war on the West. They (the citizens of afore alluded to countries) must free themselves or else learn how to eat sand, IMHO.

Dive when I can (sky/water), unapologetic smoker, would like to purchase a '69 MGB GT but don't want to waste my time on the side of the road adjusting the valves.

I have spell check and am not afraid to use it.

May add more later, if there is time.

Posted by hobsen (Member # 2923) on :
Welcome, wannabersc. A couple of years back I met by chance a woman who gave me some fascinating information about "pile butts," the workers who drive the huge timbers used to support buildings and wharves and whatever. We should always treasure thoughtful people who know things they did not learn in college.

[ July 25, 2006, 04:09 PM: Message edited by: hobsen ]
Posted by Funean (Member # 2345) on :
Welcome, wannabersc! You should fit right in around here.

Of course, you are still wrong. [Smile]
Posted by wannabersc (Member # 2960) on :
According to the World, "wrong" and "American" are synonymous, Funean.
Posted by Funean (Member # 2345) on :
Oh, that's right! [Big Grin]
Posted by cperry (Member # 1938) on :
Originally posted by hobsen:
Welcome, wannabersc. A couple of years back I met by chance a woman who gave me some fascinating information about "pile butts," the workers who drive the huge timbers used to support buildings and wharves and whatever. We should always treasure thoughtful people who know things they did not learn in college.

"Pile butts." That's just wrong. Ornery or otherwise. <shudder>
Posted by CardassianScot (Member # 787) on :
Just thought I'd let folks know I'm back, after around a year away. If anyone's interested why I've been away I'll fill you in. Basically I've been too busy to post, although I've been lurking every now then. Basiclly, my wife and I were approached about being volunteer missionaries to help out at Bible college in Mozambique. In order to have a means of paying for this we decided I should go back to college and do a teacher training degree. So in the midst of doing a very time intensive degree, moving cities, doing a part time job and my wife and I have had our first child (a boy called Jaime), I've just been a bit too busy to write the kind of replies I've wanted to from time to time. But I've finished the degree now so I've got a bit more time on my hands.
Posted by javelin (Member # 1284) on :
Very glad to see you CS!
Posted by gruevy (Member # 2985) on :
Hi there, my name is Ryan English and I am 24. I'm single, but handsome and available for parties. [Wink]

My hobbies include Japanese manga and anime, Chinese martial arts, video games, literature, arguing about politics, and... hiking. I play a few instruments as well.

I am an undergrad student in English with aspirations of being a professor.

Politically, I'm a confusing admixture of anarchism and classical conservatism. I believe that the highest order of social organization defines the lesser orders all the way down to the individual, which is why social and moral issues are so important. The government defines the society, which is why I am an anarchist. I want things to be wrong because they are wrong, and not because they are illegal.

Here're some bashing points for you in arguments: I'm LDS, I'm from Utah, and I vote Republican. I'm not ashamed to admit any of those. Also, I, like one of my heroes, Dennis Prager, value clarity over agreement.
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on :
Welcome to Ornery. You are wrong.

Posted by gruevy (Member # 2985) on :
Thanks. I can feel the love already. [Smile] Actually, now that I know that I am wrong, I can go, like, die in a fire, or something, right?
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on :
Welcome to Ornery! Check it out, it explains my post. Again, welcome, don't die in a fire. [Smile]

Posted by gruevy (Member # 2985) on :
Ya, after reading a bit more I found out that it seems to be a sort of standard greeting around here [Smile]
Posted by Sunshine (Member # 2990) on :
Hello. I've lived in Spokane, WA for the past several years but was born and raised in Tucson, AZ.

Not sure where I stand on the political scale right now, but have enjoyed reading the posts.

Hoping I'm the 4000th member. I hear somebody suggested a bottle of fine liquor for the winner. I'll take Boone's Farm, Strawberry Hill. My tastebuds are refined.
Posted by kenmeer livermaile (Member # 2243) on :
See?!? Everyone's moving to Spokane!
Posted by Sunshine (Member # 2990) on :
Who else is in Spokane? I saw one, 0Meg, I think.
Posted by kenmeer livermaile (Member # 2243) on :
Kenmeer lives in Spokane.
Posted by Funean (Member # 2345) on :
Boone's Farm, the wine that says right on the label, "Serve very cold!" [Big Grin]

Welcome to Ornery, Sunshine. Needless to say, you are wrong.
Posted by canadian (Member # 1809) on :
Originally posted by Funean:
Boone's Farm, the wine that says right on the label, "Serve very cold!" [Big Grin]

Just like revenge. hmmm....

I think I just found a new favorite wine.
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on :
Originally posted by kenmeer livermaile:
Kenmeer lives in Spokane.

The call is coming from inside the house!

Welcome, Sunshine, of course you are wrong. Country Kwencher (pronounced 'quencher') was for refined taste. Although I think they stopped making it and you probably would have had to settle for Apple. Not drinking beer I was quite the cheap wine connoisseur as a youth.

Posted by Vertigo (Member # 2991) on :
Hey. I'm from Queens, NY.
I'm 19 and I'm still a guy. I'm skinny enough to still tell.
I'm a Libertarian. A radical. Introvert. And oh so agnostic. I'm also a pessimist, if you find that attractive.

I also like stuff.
Posted by kenmeer livermaile (Member # 2243) on :
Just so you know, Vertigo, a person's gender is generally a lifetime thing.
Posted by gruevy (Member # 2985) on :
Welcome. Also, since kenmeer didn't already tell you, you are wrong.
Posted by kenmeer livermaile (Member # 2243) on :
No he's not. So there.
Posted by javelin (Member # 1284) on :
Originally posted by Sunshine:
Who else is in Spokane? I saw one, 0Meg, I think.

I grew up in Spokane.
Posted by banana (Member # 3002) on :
I am banana I live in Australia,just browsing the american forums to see if yours are any different to the ones I participate in in Australia, my favourite forum is where I live most of the time, it is different to here in it's design and coding.

I see you have no avatars or pics anywhere... I read the rules on advertising so I am not sure if putting my forums ^ is allowed, I do not mean to advertise I am only saying that is the forum I mainly hang in. I can not see the edit button in case I have done wrong and need to edit.
Cant see a quote button either:| oh well I will check out a little more as I may have just missed things.
Posted by banana (Member # 3002) on :
banana,Cant see a quote button either:| oh well I will check out a little more as I may have just missed things.
Just checking what I should be useing [Smile] found edit.

Oops now I see all at the bottom, I did not see that before [Frown]

[ August 19, 2006, 11:18 PM: Message edited by: banana ]
Posted by hobsen (Member # 2923) on :
Those can be slow to load for my tortoise of an Internet collection. Glad to have an Australian opinion added. The standard Ornery greeting is "You are Wrong!" This reflects the fact that all of us are, I think, frequently.
Posted by banana (Member # 3002) on :
hobsen"You are Wrong!" This reflects the fact that all of us are, I think, frequently.
Lol nice greetings to you also [Razz] some think us Aussies are weird... I may be so don't go judging them all on me hehe

Bit slower loading pages here but then I will get used to it.

[ August 19, 2006, 11:42 PM: Message edited by: banana ]
Posted by hobsen (Member # 2923) on :
No worry, banana, I have known other weird Australians. But they do form a treasured minority in the general Australian population.
Posted by banana (Member # 3002) on :
hobsonI have known other weird Australians
Hey we have one where I normlay play, his name is Skidmark, man the things he has done in his life are amazing, he used to be with a rock band, knows heaps of people, been through the grinder a few times in his life [Frown]

The Blog he has in forums is so cool to read, I admire the way he has dragged himself out from under all the crap he has experienced.

This is so strange in here,I have not seen a swear word yet, forum I come from it is free speach, they can swear or post in the sex forums without moderation so long as there is not animal or pedophile references, they post what they like.

Hope I do not screw up and post abnormaly against the rules :|

[ August 20, 2006, 12:38 AM: Message edited by: banana ]
Posted by hobsen (Member # 2923) on :
Educated people, at least in the United States, do not use such language without good reason. (Kicking the dishwasher with my bare foot last night as I passed through the kitchen constituted good reason.) Also this is Orson Scott Card's living room - or so he says I believe - so I would not care to offend my host. This forum has a filter also, at least I think so, but I do not test what it forbids.

[ August 20, 2006, 12:43 AM: Message edited by: hobsen ]
Posted by banana (Member # 3002) on :
hey I go by forum rules, I am a Mod so I know rules need to be adhered to most of the time.

Never considered educated people were all that much different to uneducated when it came to language abuse [Razz] vocabulary may vary or articulation skills... I do know what you mean though.
Posted by TommySama (Member # 2780) on :
"I am banana I live in Australia,just browsing the american forums to see if yours are any different to the ones I participate in in Australia"

American forums are much more educated and open-minded than Australian forums.
Posted by Redskullvw (Member # 188) on :
Hi to all the new people, and wandering people who returned.
Posted by Celebrindal (Member # 3021) on :
<rushed intro> I'm Elizabeth, a high school student from New Jersey. I'm here mostly because when I discuss politics at school, arguments usually end with something like "John Kerry isn't the president...?" If I had to describe myself politically it would be "pragmatist"... I don't think all of the problems we have to solve can be adequately solved by the application of any ideology. (But in the interest of full disclosure, I'll point out that I don't really like the current administration and often fall slightly left-of-center.) Other interests include knitting, running, history, and researching obscure topics.
Posted by cperry (Member # 1938) on :
Welcome, Celebrindal! <everyone chime in now> "You're wrong!"

(Read back a few posts; it'll make sense.)
Posted by TommySama (Member # 2780) on :
"If I had to describe myself politically it would be "pragmatist""

Welcome to the club [Smile]

"I'm here mostly because when I discuss politics at school, arguments usually end with something like "John Kerry isn't the president...?""

To be honest, it's an excellent rebuttal if you are arguing that he is the president...
Posted by canadian (Member # 1809) on :
Posted by kenmeer livermaile (Member # 2243) on :
(dons Nixon mask, raises both hands in match-grip V-for-Victory signs, and says):

"I am NOT a decider!"
Posted by canadian (Member # 1809) on :
"I'm a deciduous!.....Um...that's funny because in my travels I have experienced the fact that people come up to me all across this nation and sometimes they tell me that my character is often perceived to be somewhat wooden in nature to which I reply with great compassion and dedication, Thank you for your support, I'm reporting for duty."

[ September 13, 2006, 02:48 PM: Message edited by: canadian ]
Posted by kenmeer livermaile (Member # 2243) on :
But he pines for Jesus...
Posted by canadian (Member # 1809) on :
Pines for Jesus? Do you think He's really in the market for a tree?
Posted by kenmeer livermaile (Member # 2243) on :
He was a carpenter you know.
Posted by canadian (Member # 1809) on :
I think you've nailed it.
Posted by kenmeer livermaile (Member # 2243) on :
Twice touche'.
Posted by TommySama (Member # 2780) on :
Very punny, canadian.
Posted by Roac (Member # 3031) on :
Hello OA, I am an oceanographer who recently entered the workforce, but in in my case that is not much different from still going to school, but you get paid for it. I fall into the category of "American living abroad" or in local parlance I am a "come from away". I too was saddened when Firefly went off the air. I too love a good bottle of wine, which goes well with another of my favorite pastimes - cooking. Now, I am off to enjoy both. Have a lovely weekend.
Posted by javelin (Member # 1284) on :
Welcome! I always wanted to be an oceanographer, as I was growing up, right until the moment that I realized that I dislike fish, intensely.
Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 1217) on :
Yeah, jav, that would do it, wouldn't it?
Posted by javelin (Member # 1284) on :
[Big Grin]
Posted by canadian (Member # 1809) on :
You could learn their weaknessess...
Posted by TommySama (Member # 2780) on :
They get inside your head! Look! They did it to Johnny, they wanna get to know us, so they can kill us!
Posted by Roac (Member # 3031) on :
Not much of a fish fan either, so I study phytoplankton. Anything above ~100 micrometers that's non-photosynthetic, I'm not interested in. Believe it or not - most oceanographers don't study fish more than grilled and on a plate. So hurry jav, there is still time!
Posted by javelin (Member # 1284) on :
That's a good point, Roac. I'll have to consider it... [Smile]
Posted by PresidentPeanut (Member # 3074) on :
Hello everyone! Nice to meet you. [Smile]

Don't let the name fool you, I'm proud head of state of the Orthodox Legume community.
Posted by kenmeer livermaile (Member # 2243) on :
Just another peanut-head [Wink]
Posted by TommySama (Member # 2780) on :
I've never properly introduced myself, here's a little essay I turned into my history teacher this trimester so she would know a little about me:

Hi, my name is Tommy M@#$%^&d,

I’m tall, attractive, funny, intelligent, and modest.

This summer I spent about 25 hours a week working. I also spent a considerable amount of time reading (especially political debates on on-line forums) which I think might have changed my understanding of world politics and just my general knowledge of all the horrible stuff going on in the world.
Other than that, I did the normal stuff an 18 year old boy does: hung out with friends; slept until 2 in the afternoon... but no parties, of course. Most of my friends graduated last year, but apparently it turns out I have some friends in my grade.
Things I’m actually interested in are American politics and world events. This summer I paid a lot of attention to Middle East conflicts, and read a lot about the history of the region.
Posted by shum57 (Member # 2661) on :
Great to read some of the intros. I first registered a year ago, but visit only infrequently.

I am 34, married. We have two boys, with the third (another boy, heaven help us) on the way. We've just moved from NYC to Seattle, partly to be closer to my family in the West and in-laws in Japan. I miss the vibrancy and diversity of NYC, but there are mountains out here! And the slower pace is lending itself to my writing habit.

I am a financial analyst with an MA in Economics and a BA in Japanese (minor in poli sci), both from Brigham Young University. Hope to be writing full time (YA and Political/Econ historical novel) within five years.

I share OSC's core religious beliefs as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (aka Mormon church), but very few of his political views. I feel that true Christians should be more on the side of things like peace, universal healthcare and assistance for widows and children (you know, doing the things the Saviour said, rather than simply using his name in your speaches).

If that pisses you off, you're wrong.

(Tongue-in-cheek is hard to do ala post).
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on :
Welcome. Excellently said.

How far are you from Enumclaw? we used to have a great member from there.

Welcome, Tommy. [Wink]

Posted by kenmeer livermaile (Member # 2243) on :
Washington state attracts greatness.

Riding the ferries is the best.
Posted by TommySama (Member # 2780) on :
"Welcome, Tommy. [Wink] "

... You are right.

[Big Grin]
Posted by shum57 (Member # 2661) on :
Thanks. We're about 40 miles North of Enumclaw (had to look it up on Google maps).
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on :
Cool, if you bump into Paul so hi for me. [Wink]

Posted by Matteo522 (Member # 3103) on :
Well, I figure since I've started posting I should introduce myself. My name is Matt, which you may have gathered from my nick. [Smile]

I'm a 23 year-old computer programmer currently employed at a successful game developer. I work in the Tools department, which means that I make the programs that lets everyone else do their jobs, although recently I've been spending a lot of time doing facial animation programming. Basically I'm in charge of making sure the characters in the game show appropriate emotion and lip-sync to their dialogue (and my god has this turned out to be so much more nuanced than I originally thought).

Politically, you'll mostly see me side with the right until they start getting all batty with morality legislation and censorship. I'm also fairly libertarian in the sense that I think people are generally good and can generally take care of themselves and each other without the government mandating it. I have little faith that government can touch anything without screwing it up and turning it into a bulged-out monster that will implode on its own gravity. But that's a different topic. [Smile] In general, you'll find that I'm fairly laid back, though.

My interests include gaming (can't wait for the Wii next month!!), tech, politics, going to the beach, and hanging out with friends. As for TV, I don't watch much except for the shows I'm loyal to... currently Lost, Heroes, South Park, and Family Guy. Oh, and I need to get my tripped-out-cosmological-Carl-Sagan-with-LSD-stained-galactic-images fix every Tuesday on the Science channel. [Smile]
Posted by TommySama (Member # 2780) on :
"I'm a 23 year-old computer programmer currently employed at a successful game developer."

Welcome to Ornery.

You are wrong.
Posted by seekingprometheus (Member # 3043) on :
Hi. I'm Steve. 28, sales and school. A peregrinating product of modern globalization, I don't really have a place I hail from, but I currently reside in San Jose, Ca. Good town.

I'm generally willing to engage in a debate from either side. I have my convictions, but I'm too certain of my fallibility to feel obliged to impose them on others. I try to avoid dogmatism like any virulent plague, with the obvious exception of the fundamental tenet which predicates all reality: The fact that "Better Off Dead" is the funniest movie of all time. As long as everyone acknowledges this central truth, I'm certain we'll get along.
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on :
Welcome to Ornery, Matt. You are wrong.

Posted by Funean (Member # 2345) on :
Hey, let's not forget Steve! You're wrong, too. [Smile]
Posted by seekingprometheus (Member # 3043) on :
I cannot possibly be wrong. The only assertion I have made here is that "Better Off Dead" is the funniest film ever--which is an indisputable truth! [Smile]
Posted by canadian (Member # 1809) on :
Get your testicles off of me, sp!
Posted by seekingprometheus (Member # 3043) on :
"You know, like octopus? Testicles."

"I didn't ask for a dime."
Posted by kenmeer livermaile (Member # 2243) on :
Well, welcome, ma'am. You're wrong. Being wrong is price of admission to Ornery. And by the way, you have NO idea, I think, of just how much trouble you're in for.

A tip: grab a copy of Card's 'Ender's Game' before you dive much deeper.

It's a quick page-turner of a deeply thoughtful read.
Posted by javelin (Member # 1284) on :
KL, you scared her post right off the forum! [Frown]
Posted by kenmeer livermaile (Member # 2243) on :
She'll be back. She knows she wants to. We'll be nice. But it would have been cruel of me not to forewarn her. Articles but no fiction? She was walking into a trap.

Let her return gushing of Ender's Game and all will be joost swell... I declare today Tawlk Lahke Bo-r-r-at Day!

High Faaifvhe!
Posted by mamapajamas (Member # 3184) on :
As a 58-year old computer tech, I've been involved with computers in one way or another since "telecommunications" meant handing a tape to courier to drive over to the satellite uplink. I went through more intense training in the Air Force when I enlisted in 1969, and have continued on. Today, I'm a "leader" of one of those new-fangled "teams". ROFLMAO! It does amuse me... Mostly I teach new computer people (most of them straight out of college or some form of tech school), I teach in English instead of Conversational Computerese, and use my historic memory of 10 unique mainframes (not counting eqipment upgrades) to good advantage.

College in the '80s... my degree work was in anthropology/prehistoric civilizations. This was an avocation rather than a career choice... I had already decided that I would stay with computers. But because of it, I tend to take a VERY long view of most everything. My studies centered on Meso-Americans. In forums that use avatars, I use a tiny image of an Aztec Eagle Knight that I built in a 3-d computer graphics program [Big Grin] .

I was attracted here when I heard OSC speak on radio... the Lars Larson Show, I think. He was talking about his essay on the War on Terror, and I feel that he is right about it. I came here to read it, and was delighted to see that there is a discussion forum.

Nice to meet you all [Smile] .
Posted by hobsen (Member # 2923) on :
Welcome to Ornery. Good to have yet another person with a computer background.
Posted by Matteo522 (Member # 3103) on :
Posted by javelin (Member # 1284) on :
Matteo522 - pretty sure you aren't allowed to say those kind of words in this civilized forum. [Wink]
Posted by olddeadmeat (Member # 3190) on :

I am in my late 30s, happily married with 19 year old stepson (whom I adopted) and a 7 year old daughter.

My monicker was inspired by the movie "Hot Shots" While playing laser tag with my step son, I needed an alias to for the scoring. Since I was older than most of the players, they decided to combine old with DeadMeat from the movie. So Olddeadmeat it is.

I double majored in journalism/political science, became a lawyer working for a non-profit with a grant from the Legal Services Corporation.

I got married, and my wife pointed out my work was miserable, so I wound up taking over a family tech business.

In West Texas, apparently I am liberal. In Austin I appear to stand just to the left of Jesse Helms. Found this forum after a couple of political blogs referenece OSC's post re: voting for the GOP because the Democrats have no plan.

I know I am wrong about something. Just don't know what.
Posted by mamapajamas (Member # 3184) on :
LOL, Matteo... I haven't seen binary in more than 30 years! [Big Grin]

Thanks for the memory! [Smile]

Thanks for the Hello, Hobsen! [Smile]
Posted by Mithrae (Member # 3197) on :
Hey y'all. I heard about this forum from a relative a few months back and finally got round to taking a look. Looks good. I'm male, in my early twenties and currently pursuing a worthwhile career in the fast food industry. One day I may get a life. I'm not actually an Ornery American, but I hope you're not too unkind to Aussies here. [Cool]

[ November 16, 2006, 02:18 AM: Message edited by: Mithrae ]
Posted by kenmeer livermaile (Member # 2243) on :
"I know I am wrong about something. Just don't know what."

YOu're wrong: you DO know what it is that you're wrong about. Good thing you're just plai wrong, though, otherwise I could call you a lair.
Posted by kenmeer livermaile (Member # 2243) on :
Oops. Almost forgot. Welcome to Ornery! [Smile]
Posted by Richard Dey (Member # 1727) on :
Welcome indeed, and you're all as wrong as Kenmeer Livermaile [Wink] -- who is never wrong!
Posted by kenmeer livermaile (Member # 2243) on :
Uh, Richard? You're wrong [Wink] Truth is that, right or wrong, I'm often paradoxical.
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on :
Welcome all to Ornery. You are wrong. Or soon will be.

Posted by Marinero (Member # 3113) on :
I just wanted you all to know I'm famous. I am the guys who Capt Malich is based off of in Empire, except I'm a Marine, not a (pansy) soldier, and I am not that witty, or smart, and I'm not studying political science. I was going to email OSC about correcting those errors, but it would have ruined the story, but I forgot, so add that to the list of "not-me" attrubutes. Ok, so really I am not the basis for the character, but I am a Marine, going to college so that they have a more literate bullet sponge to lead the other bullet sponges. I like it, makes me smile. I also have two little monkeys and one on the way that I consider my children (because I'm their dad).
Posted by Michelle (Member # 3237) on :
My name is Michelle, I was born in Washington D.C. on the Four-of-July, forty-four years ago...

My mother bought me a plastic White House with little plastic presidents all the way up through Johnson, the year Nixon was elected.

I loved them all, good and bad. [Wink]

I have no degrees, no directions, and no hubby.
But the power of the "remote" is mine!

Quote: "I am short with my words, terrible with my grammer and spelling, and as so many have noted.. brutally blunt and without tact." -Redskullvw...

Ditto...and may I add I have this thing with the "truth". I want it. I need it. Always.

I simply do not understand the use of the *little white lie*...

I've been told this might be a sign of Asberger Syndrome? I think they are lying...
Posted by seekingprometheus (Member # 3043) on :
Welcome to Ornery, Michelle. You are wrong.
Posted by HockeyMonkey123 (Member # 3234) on :
Hi! I’m, obviously, new here. From the upper Midwest and I am ornery! The politics in my region are a mess - and I feel that there's all together WAY too much time, energy and expense spent on dealing with the disasters the local and regional politicians create for themselves here in attempting to edify their offices. Small town America can be a very lonely place for a traditional conservative! - But, then again, I MAY be wrong...
Posted by msquared (Member # 113) on :
No may about it. At Ornery, you ARE wrong. [Smile]

Welcome to the site.

Where in the upper Midwest are you?

I am in sout western Ohio.

Posted by HockeyMonkey123 (Member # 3234) on :
I'm in the Wonderful Upper Peninsula of Michigan - more like part of Wisconsin than Michigan - but - Michigan none-the-less. I have family in Ohio - Cincinnati and Columbus/Upper Arlington.

Thanks for the welcome!
Posted by kenmeer livermaile (Member # 2243) on :
Canoeing along the Wisconsin/Michigan border when I was 14 (and in the process of reading "Stranger in a Strange Land") was one of the most etherial and formative experiences of my life.
Posted by msquared (Member # 113) on :

My wife and I would love to retire there. We both love snow and from what we understand, you folks get a bunch of it.

Posted by seekingprometheus (Member # 3043) on :
I have friends in Upper Arlington. (I lived in Dublin for a few years).
Posted by seekingprometheus (Member # 3043) on :
Oh sorry--just skimming the posts--I thought you implied YOU were from UA. Still, good town.
Posted by HockeyMonkey123 (Member # 3234) on :
My older Brother was Supt. of Schools in Upper A a few years back. Visited there - very nice area. Lot's of $$ from what I could see!
Posted by HockeyMonkey123 (Member # 3234) on :
Originally posted by msquared:

My wife and I would love to retire there. We both love snow and from what we understand, you folks get a bunch of it.


'm' - If there's any info I can provide - let me know. I was born on the Eastern end of the UP and currently live in the South Central area (Right on the MI/WI border, kenmeer) - I left many years ago for service in the Navy - lived in a few metro areas after college to build a career and finally got the opportunity to move back 'home' - best move I could have made for MANY reasons. I love it here - but - it takes a certain type of soul to 'feel' that! The pace is definitely a lot slower and the people can be perceived as wary or stand-off~ish until you get to know them. Territorial, I guess is a good way to put it! Living in isolation tends to make one more base in behavior! Anyway, snow levels where I am are much lower than the rest of the UP - we live in what's affectionately known as the 'banana belt' of the upper Midwest - we get plenty of snow - but the big stuff mostly passes either north or south of my county - odd, but true - My secret Utopia!
Posted by RickyB (Member # 1464) on :
Hey, HockeyMonkey, have a pastie for me, you yoopee you [Smile]
Posted by kenmeer livermaile (Member # 2243) on :
Spring through fall in that region is superb. Summer is all that summer should be -- so long as you are on the inside of screened windows come sunset. Skeeters.

And for those who adore winter (me), it is year-round utopia.
Posted by HockeyMonkey123 (Member # 3234) on :
The Pasty. There's history for you. The food of the God's - Yooper Ambrosia! It's what keeps body and soul connected here in the North Country - particularly during winter - but they're enjoyed year round!
Curious? Look here:

[ December 04, 2006, 12:03 PM: Message edited by: HockeyMonkey123 ]
Posted by Tom_paines_ghost (Member # 3285) on :
Welcome all, I am enjoying this site quite a lot. I teach school in rural Alaska and need some good intellectual conversation. So far it seems as thug there is a good group here with a wide range of viewpoints.

So hello.
Posted by msquared (Member # 113) on :
Hello TPG

Welcome to Ornery.

You are wrong.(Traditional Ornery Welcome)


[ December 06, 2006, 02:44 PM: Message edited by: msquared ]
Posted by Tom_paines_ghost (Member # 3285) on :
Of course I am. Isn't everyone?
Posted by Marinero (Member # 3113) on :
I'm not, the voices tell me I'm right.
Posted by HockeyMonkey123 (Member # 3234) on :
Originally posted by Marinero:
I'm not, the voices tell me I'm right.

The voices are wrong...
Posted by Marinero (Member # 3113) on :
Which ones? The voices that sound like Tiny Tim (red hair wierd type) or the ones that sound like my 3rd grade biology teacher?
Posted by HockeyMonkey123 (Member # 3234) on :
lol Yes!
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on :
Welcome all.

I went to the sight and saw them but I'm still not sure what a Pasty is. In Texas a 'pasty' is the thing strippers have to paste over a nipple in some jurisdictions to keep from being completely nude. I'm ashamed to say I don't know if they are edible. I've been married a long time. [Frown]

Don't listen to the voices. [Wink]

Posted by DaveS (Member # 2734) on :
It's pass-tee, kind of a meat (or vegetable) pie that you pick up and eat. Also good to stuff in your pockets to keep warm when you're out shoveling snow off the roof.
Posted by HockeyMonkey123 (Member # 3234) on :
KE - I believe you're referring to the 'Pastie' - long 'a'. The Pasty is as DaveS described. Its origins are unclear - but the story goes that they were originally a portable hot meal for mine workers and such. They're made up - typically - of leftovers from a pot roast dinner wrapped in a pie crust and baked. They can be frozen before baking, baked then frozen, etc. Quite clever, really - and delicious! It's not solely a 'U.P.' product - but - most folks I've described them to around the country have never heard of them - even by another name!

[ December 12, 2006, 10:32 AM: Message edited by: HockeyMonkey123 ]
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on :
Thanks guys. I'd never heard of them. They sound like a better versions of the Hot Pockets my kids love.

Posted by Greg Davidson (Member # 3377) on :
I am 45, married for 22 years to a lovely woman. We have homeschooled our three children (home births for the last two), we attend religious services on a weekly basis, and I work in the aerospace industry. If that paints one picture in your mind, add to it that in high school we took our principal to State Supreme Court with the ACLU when he censored a play we were putting on, my nickname on the football team was "radical", I went to Swarthmore College which is considered left-wing and then to grad school in public policy at the Kennedy School.

For many years I drove a Toyota with 180,000+ miles on it and the bumper sticker "Question Question Authority". I have worked for 21 years in aerospace jobs that generally have required engineering or science degrees, neither of which I have (shows that you can homeschool at any point). Actually, I started working at NASA almost by accident - I had a governmental internship that made me eligible for jobs at about 50 different agencies, and I had interviews in Washington DC on a Tuesday and Thursday for jobs in economic areas I had trained for (Treasury, Office of Management and Budget). I decided to do some practice interviews on the Wednesday. I looked in the book at all the different agencies, trying to find something that Ronald Reagan liked that I also liked. When I flipped the book open to NASA, I remembered all of the science fiction I had read, and so I set up some interviews there. So much for career planning.

Perhaps the biggest thing shaping my life was being diagnosed with Hodgkins Disease just before I turned 14. By good fortune that was 1975, because the mortality rate was 80% in 1970 but had been reduced to 20% by '75. So thanks to all you older taxpayers who paid for the research that has kept me alive. Life since then has been a gift, both the joys and the traumas.

For all of you out there who are Christians, Merry Christmas. Being Jewish, tonight is mostly just a Sunday night with no work tomorrow (which explains all this time posting). I've only been registered for a few days, but it has been fun.
Posted by WarrsawPact (Member # 1275) on :
800. Wow.
(Oh, and here's Greg Davidson's post since I rudely turned the page.)
Posted by DaveS (Member # 2734) on :
So much for career planning.
That sounds as well-planned as my past. I was on the verge of living on the street in San Francisco a couple of years out of college. I walked past a computer tech school and some impish impulse told me to go in. I did, signed up just for fun since they gave me a scholarship. I followed my then future ex-wife-to-be to Michigan where I tried to get a job as a secretary. It was filled, but they had an opening for a junior programmer and offered it to me, I think mostly because I could type (same thing, isn't it?). Sounded like fun, and it still is. On the other hand, I spent last night working until 2AM on the "last bug" in a new product that had to be delivered two weeks ago. Oh, well. I think you'll like it here, Greg. It's stimulating and rewarding, but it can be annoying at times, like family. I suppose somebody has already told you that You're Wrong. Get used to it [Smile]
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on :
Welcome to Ornery, Greg.

Posted by Another Fool (Member # 3430) on :
Well, after skimming over some of the introductions from other users, it seems I represent part of the younger-aged minority here... :-)

Currently I'm an 18 year old college freshman who, naturally, has no clue what he wants to do with his life. I'm sure many of you remember those times well. ;-D Right now I'm looking into the possibilities of studying English as a major, but that's about as far as my planning has progressed...

I grew up as an Evangelical missionary kid in Spain (going to a private, English-speaking school), and I've lived there a little over 8 years -- just this past fall I moved to Grand Rapids, MI to study at a small Christian school called Cornerstone University.

I AM a Christian, and I very much enjoy discussing any sort of philosophical/theological/cultural/political subject I can get people to discuss with me. I also love reading when I can get my hands on a worthy book (OSC, Robert Jordan, C.S. Lewis, and Steinbeck being some fav. authors), and I can't stay away from playing soccer for more than a few weeks at a time without suffering from serious withdrawl. ;-) I love to write as well, but I'm afraid I'm very good at starting stories, but not so talented at finishing them... ::sigh::

Well that's about all there is to it, I suppose. :-) I'm looking forward to interacting with you all more. Peace.
Posted by Lady Starkiller (Member # 2444) on :
(OSC, Robert Jordan, C.S. Lewis, and Steinbeck being some fav. authors)
Allow me to be the first to disagree with you on something:

I cannot believe you find Steinbeck readable. [Big Grin]
Posted by Another Fool (Member # 3430) on :
hahaha. well I found him to be a bit....mmm...morbid(?) and depressing at first too, but then I realized that his stuff wasn't centered so much around plot, as it was around people. Basically I loved his focus on characterization. I also loved his psycho-analysis of the effects of war on people in "The Moon is Down". Alot of depressing stuff, but stuff that made me think, at least... :-)
Posted by Lady Starkiller (Member # 2444) on :
[Big Grin]

He definitely does make one think, I'll give him that. I just found his style unreadable, though his subject matter interested me.
Posted by Redskullvw (Member # 188) on :
Looks like 2006 was a good year for people coming out of lurker mode, and at least saying "Hi".

To all who took a moment to add a face of sorts to their onscreen presence, thankyou. And to those who still haven't shared who they are, what are you waiting for? It would make a great New Year's Resolution.

I WILL introduce myself on Ornery.
Posted by msquared (Member # 113) on :
How about if some of us old timers re introduce ourselves? A lot has changed for me since I first posted my intro all those years ago.

Hi there, I am msquared. I am a 43 y/o married father of two boys. I have been married for 18-1/2 years(to the same woman, mcubed.) I live in Dayton, Ohio and have hosted several OrneryCons over the past 6 years. I work at a company that makes small rolls of paper out of large rolls of paper. I have been here for 13 years.

For fun I like to play computer games. I also run three D&D games, two in real life and one by e-mail. My oldest son is 15 and a freshman. My youngest will be 12 in a month and a half and is in 6th grade. My wife just celebrated the 11th anniversary of her 29th birthday.

I am a conservative/moderate Republican. I think GWB did the right thing for the wrong reasons and wish that some Iraqi statesmen would step up and be the founding fathers of their country.

I was the moderator of this site for about 3 years and am happy in my retirement.


[ January 02, 2007, 12:37 PM: Message edited by: msquared ]
Posted by WarrsawPact (Member # 1275) on :
Re-introductions... well, I joined Ornery in September 2003 and posted an "introduction" in April 2004 that said,
I'm not so sure I even need to, though I thought about it. I've already posted well over 1500 posts here... anyone not know anything about me yet?

People here get a better idea of who I am by reading what I post than by looknig here, because if I just call myself something like "conservative," people are going to get a very wrong idea of who I am.

I guess I'll just state again, for the record:
I'm 18 for the about another month. I'm attending college now with a 4.0, on the Dean's list, and an Honors student... probably going to go with PoliSci as a major. I am what you people who are convinced of the existence of "race" call white, and I live in a totally drug-infested suburban Southern California city. I was a Picket Captain in the SoCal supermarket strike that lasted about five months.

You'll figure out my stance on issues as we debate with one another.
I used to be a dedicated Tireless Rebutter, but now it's more of an on-and-off habit than full-time occupation.

Well, now I'm 21 years old, still getting onto the Dean's List (though no longer holding a 4.0), and going to the George Washington University in Washington, DC. I'll graduate in May with a B.A. in Political Science and a minor in Economics. I'm currently working for a fast-growing political advocacy group that pissed off a lot of people in the 2006 elections.

As political labels go, Robert Heinlein once said, "Political tags—such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth—are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire." Well, I'm the latter. I advocate maximized negative liberty and minimized overall coercion, and despite Heinlein's formulation, I consider that to be what true liberalism is and was before the "new liberals" co-opted the term. Furthermore, I consider that principle to be central to the United States Constitution, though it's pretty much ignored by most of the country, including the government.
I typically extend that liberty to the unborn, too.

Since I plan to be politically active throughout my life, this leads me to be a neolibertarian—a clunky term for a pragmatic "libertarian"/liberal with an actual foreign policy.
I have voted mainly for Republicans so far, but I've also voted for Libertarian Party candidates and Democrats. My vote is up for grabs; it's up to the merits of the candidate or measure, not a particular party.

I make arguments here on hard determinism (against free will) that are incompatible with at least moderate libertarian position of the Catholic Church, but I still go to Mass, every Sunday and on Holy Days of Obligation.

I was once known for being a rather prolific poster, typing not only a large number of posts, but extremely long ones that responded to almost every word typed by my opponents. I often find myself arguing against several sides in any given debate, and I'm not shy about using tactics in debate to elicit particular responses from my opponents. I've all but stopped posting at Ornery during the school year now that I'm going to university with a packed schedule.

And that's all for now.
Posted by Lady Starkiller (Member # 2444) on :
I've only been (off and) on here for around a year and a half, I think, and my own intro's not too many pages back, but a lot's changed, so here's a little update.

I'm no longer in college (I managed only 2 and a half years total before I ran into serious financial difficulty). I'm currently working as a part-time library assistant at a public library, and am hoping to move up to full time soon. I continually have something like half my library's nonfiction books checked out, just for the hell of it, at any given time. (Okay, that's a bit of an exaggeration - but just a bit.)

If I haven't lost complete track of time, I'm 22. I think.

I still live with my mother, largely because we're used to each other and neither of us really wants to go through the bother of living alone. I cook, Mom drives, and we nag my siblings to do the cleaning. [Big Grin]

I have about two fantasy novels I've written sitting on my hard drive waiting for me to get up off my ass and edit them. I'm writing a third, which is more interesting than editing the old ones. (Procrastination rules!) Hopefully someday I'll work up the motivation to try and publish something.

Like I said in my intro, politically and religiously I'm all over the map, and I'd rather poke apart all sides of an issue and disagree with everyone (just for the hell of it, really) than agree with something just for the hell of that.

I'm snarky, and slow on the uptake sometimes. If I ask a question, even if it seems flippant, it's most likely a sincere one, and if you think I'm being snarky, I probably am.

My life goal is to be a hermit.

I think that's pretty much it - all you never really wanted to know about me. [Big Grin]
Posted by martel (Member # 3448) on :
I decided I'd introduce myself here first of all so that people who deride my bad writing in posts can come here and see they made fun of a kid, just for a nice guilt trip and also so that maybe some people will understand where I'm coming from...
I'm 17 and a junior in high school at a public school in Oak Park, Illinois (right next to Chicago).
I live in what I consider to be the most unfortunately "progressive" town in the country, if not the world, and though I seem like a neo-conservative to my classmates, I would probably be seen as a crazy liberal in Texas...I'm usually to the right on social issues, to the left on economic and somewhere in between on foreign policy and defense.
I'm an educated Roman Catholic, so anyone who feels like making fun of Catholicism in a post will have my under-developed adolescent reason to deal warned!
I'm a fan of OSC as well as Dickens, Solzenhitsyn, and Dostoyevsky, and I read histories like nobody's business.
And that's about it.
Posted by msquared (Member # 113) on :
Welcome martel,

You are wrong.

And before you go huffy on me, that is the traditional greeting we try and give all new members.

You will find many Catholics on the site, so do not worry about that too much.

Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on :
Welcome Martel. From a crazy Liberal in Texas.

Nobody is too hard on spelling or grammar here, but Google offers a toolbar that will spell-check your posts.

And don't read my post on Carlotta's thread "Why not birth control?" as I am a little hard on Catholicism.

However, apparently we both are history buffs so do check out the thread on Thermopylae.

Any way, welcome again. I hope you stick around.

Posted by simplybiological (Member # 1344) on :
martel, depends on where you are in Texas. Austin is ridiculously Liberal. I'm way liberal, and I find myself muttering, "hippy liberals" under my breath all the time.


I should probably re-introduce myself, since a LOT has changed and I also sort of... came back after a long absence.

I came to this site in 2003- I was dating/living with a fairly prolific poster, and after having a rousing debate about homosexuality with LetterRip, I joined. That particular poster and I are no longer together (he recently got married, I went, it was lovely- we're still friends), but I've stuck with ornery.

I have a BS in Zoology and a Master's in Ecology, Evolution and Behavior. I left my phD program to pursue teaching, and I'm in my last semester of a cutting-edge program that promotes inquiry and project-based techniques over traditional instruction. In Fall of this year, I'll be working at a project-based high school in a suburb of Austin as a science teacher.

I'm one of the only people here who hates sci-fi (I mean, I like Ender's Game, but not much else). I read a lot of memoirs and snooty contemporary fiction. Music-wise, I'm big into indie rock and that sort of thing.

I kind of love living in central Texas, but only because it's Austin and therefore barely qualifies as Texas.

Politically, I'm pretty liberal. Religiously, I'm Uninvolved/Unconcerned (which is different, in my mind, from being an atheist). I prefer to discuss domestic issues rather than foreign, and I tend to get riled about reproductive rights and same-sex marriage.

Oh, and I'll be 26 in February. I'm still a youngin'.
Posted by WarrsawPact (Member # 1275) on :
martel -
I joined here as an 18-year-old Catholic (although I'm the other way around on politics). We have had plenty of young Catholics on this board for some reason... just take a look through this thread and use the Find function on each page.
Oh, and don't even joke about using your age as a shield, heh. I'd rather not even bring up some of the debates we've had about the age of those debating...

Your writing skills will improve dramatically with time here, if you're willing to practice often. One of the things I adored about Ornery when I could spend a lot of time here was that there were always plenty of smart and opinionated people to disagree with me, on every issue; they tear your arguments apart, they do you the favor of setting you straight, they force you to be clear in your writing. Opponents have read things you haven't read, know ideas and arguments you've never heard, and are motivated to use them against your arguments. Opponents keep you sharp. And Ornery has plenty of opponents for every position.

Any natural talent you have with language can only be augmented by constantly using it and having it challenged (in a civil manner)--and being willing to learn from your mistakes when they're pointed out.

[ January 20, 2007, 04:17 AM: Message edited by: WarrsawPact ]
Posted by Carlotta (Member # 3117) on :
I guess it's about time. I'm a 25 year old, have two kids, daughter will be 3 next month and son will be 18 mo two days later. I'm part stay at home mom and part nanny and cook for a family of 8 whose house we share. I met my husband in college and we got married a week after I graduated. I was an art major at a small Catholic liberal arts university (there aren't many, anyone care to take a guess?) [Smile] and I love to think about stuff and talk about it with other people.

I'm Catholic by faith, sort of environmentalist by lifetsyle, and not-sure-yet politically. Mainly because I haven't figured out yet which practicals best fit my ideals, but also because I don't keep up with current events that much - don't read the newspaper, watch much tv, don't have cable anyway, so its hard to keep up with any but the most basic issues, and hard to get the truth through all the political slant.

My brother in law is Thrasymachus, who got me hooked on Ornery. I'm so glad to have found a bunch of people willing to discuss things with me. I've learned a lot about my own beliefs through having them challenged here.
Posted by IrishTD (Member # 2216) on :

There are numerous small Catholic liberal arts universities out there (esp. if you're including Jesuit schools). [Smile]

My mom works at one of 'em in Ohio, I can think of at least two small ones (and one big one) here, both women only though, in Indiana.
Posted by Carlotta (Member # 3117) on :
Oh, sorry. I went to University of Dallas. Does your mom work at Steubenville or is there another one in OH?
Posted by IrishTD (Member # 2216) on :
Ohio Dominican. East side of Columbus.
Posted by kelcimer (Member # 1221) on :
My first intro from page 7:
23. I am an artist, actor, writer, and graphic designer. Though I have yet to be paid for doing any of these things I try not to let it discourage me.

Formerly of NJ and been resident of VA for the past 8 years.

It was noted recently of me that "for a cynic you're awfully damn optimistic" if that tells you anything.

I was just looking for OSC information when I found ornery. That was a while back. Been lurking since then.

OSC is 2nd favorite author. Terry Pratchet is #1.
R.A. Salvatore was my least favorite writer until Chuck Austen started writing for Marvel recently.

Life is too serious to be taken seriously.

I think some thanks should go out to LetterRip and msquared for bumping this one the most.

I'm now 26. I've been paid to be a Graphic Designer for a few years now. Apparently the natural enemy of graphic designers are salespeople. Pretty much they're all brain damaged.

I used to post fairly prolifically, but slacked off after coming to certain conlusions about my own beliefs and foreign policy. I believe I annoyed more then a few here during that time with the god threads.

For the most part I'm a Classic Liberal.

I've been away for the past 6 months or so. And now I'm back.

So what did I miss?
Posted by EDanaII (Member # 1062) on :
Apparently the natural enemy of graphic designers are salespeople.
Salesman are the natural enemy of all organized professions. [Smile] Programmers, Engineers and, even, Graphics Artists all require time to accomplish their tasks. Salesmen, OTOH, require almost no time to sell something and make promises their bodies don't have to pay. [Wink]

"You want it when? No problem! My team will work 25 hours a day at twice their normal speed just to get it to you!"

Posted by caladbolg1125 (Member # 3666) on :
I just saw this introductory thread and thought I'd post here, too. You may or may not already have a general idea of who I am based on how I've already posted but you can also learn a lot about someone based on what they say about themselves.

I'm twenty and attending HCC down here in Houston, Texas. I found this site through OSC's hatrack river website. He's a great writer BTW. I'm an aspiring writer and hope to make full use of OWW though no one has been posting there lately.

I've always thought of myself as intelligent and usually my company does a good job of proving that. But the posters here actually think! Its both refreshing and a little frustrating. I'm sure I'll adapt. I think I'll continue to be vocal here 'cause your average twenty-year-old just can't hold an intelligent discussion.

I enjoy writing, reading, the nuances of Chaos Theory, the practical philosophy of Buddhism, and openmindedness in general.

Posted by Paladine (Member # 1932) on :
Well, I don't feel like digging up my old introduction (if I even made one), so I'll post a new one without reference to it. I'm a 22 year old college dropout, currently teaching Latin at a private high school and playing professional poker (mostly limit hold 'em and Omaha 8 at the 100/200 level and higher, up to 1000/2000 on occasion). Next year I'll be quitting my day job and resuming my studies at Rutgers University, with majors in political science and psychology. I'll also have more time to devote to my passions: poker and chess (in which I'm currently rated around 2000).

I'm a pragmatic conservative Roman Catholic with a growing admiration for Buddhist philosophy; a lover of language, logic, law, literature, psychology, philosophy, history, and humanity. I place a high premium on civility in discourse, and have come to respect and like a multitude of people comprising a broad range of the political spectrum as a consequence of exchanges on Ornery and in the wider world.

I think that people have a tendency to view too many problems through an ideologically tinted lense, and that this is anathema to productive discourse and good public policy formulation. I believe that reasonable people can disagree on virtually any issue, that our differing experiences and perspectives should be tools whereby we learn from each other rather than bludgeons with which we beat each other. I don't believe anyone has a monopoly on truth or goodness except for God.

I believe this is a unique community. Despite the fact that I'm not one of Ornery's more prolific, vocal, or respected posters, I'm proud to be a part of it. I've taken and hope to take a great deal from the other contributors to these discussions, and it's my humble hope that I've given and might give a small bit in return.
Posted by Chaya (Member # 3893) on :
Well, after reading - or should I say scanning - the above postings, I realize that I'm the 'oldie' here - going to be 60 this August; but deep inside I'm still 35! Grew up in New Jersey and live in Israel and teach English as a second language. Moved here 21 years ago. Can't believe it's been so long! My coming of age was during the 60's and was into the whole scene pretty much. Got stoned on pot and hash; dropped acid once and went on all the required marches against the Vietnam War. But as I've gotten older - and since I've been living in Israel - I have become much more conservative. I believe that family life is very important. I, myself, don't have any children (long story) but my husband has two kids. God? Mmmm. [Confused] That's something I've been grappling with a long time. For a while I lived an extremely Orthodox lifestyle but have gotten less so as the years have gone by. But I know some very good people who believe in God and don't follow every little law. And there are some Orthodox who follow every little law whom I would not consider 'good' people! I think that's enough for now! LOL
Posted by Funean (Member # 2345) on :
Welcome to Ornery, Chaya! [Smile]
Posted by Clark (Member # 2727) on :
Well, 1000 people have joined since me, I guess I'll introduce myself.

My name is Clark. I've been lurking here for a long time, but have recently tried to be at least a little bit active here. I'm 25 and have been married for almost 3 years. No kids as of yet. We've been trying to fix that, but haven't had any luck. I'm a physicist and work for a semi-conductor wafer company in St. George, UT. I served an LDS mission to southern Brazil (I walked to Uruguay a couple times). I am a huge nerd. No, really. A HUGE nerd. I own two books on the number 0, one on the number e, one on Pi and one on phi. I play the piano, enjoy basketball, reading, and am currently addicted to Kakuro. Most importantly, I'm working the 5pm-4am shift at work tonight and tomorrow, and I'm BORED!

I prefer discussions that don't drift toward SSM, or attempting to prove/disprove the existance of God. Mostly, I try to find discussions where I feel like I have something unique to add.
Posted by johnson (Member # 2385) on :
My name is Luka.
I live on the 2nd floor.

Oh, wait...
Posted by Rhoetus (Member # 3937) on :
I'm not sure how much to say about myself. I read history, especially military histories,and military/political 'codes' such as SunTzu Macchiavelli, Five Rings, Freddy the Great, Napoleon, Vegetius, and anyone else I can get my hands on including fictional versions.

I have been looking for a forum to exercise my mind in, and hope this one will work. I have been out of school for quite some time, usually working as a cook, and learned that nothing gets me as worked up as a good philosophical/theological/political debate. (you know, the things you aren't supposed to talk about at work)
I am 31 now, married, two kids, went to Ohio State (big Eddie George fan) but didn't actually go to many classes, the reason for which, I'm sure will come out at some point.
For education, I'd have to say that apart from some high school teachers intriguing me with ideas, I have taught myself through reading and examining the world around me.
Some things I know very little about. Financial policies being right up there.
Religiously, I consider myself a Christian, first and foremost... I attend Baptist churches, but I don't know if I really consider myself a Baptist. I will argue doctrine and dogma with fellow Christians, but that doesn't mean I think I have some special tap into God's mind.
Sometimes I will argue with you even when I agree with you because I think you are not arguing your(and my) case well enough... other-forum I am hated on both sides because of that.
I hope to find people who disagree with me, and do it in a way that is well thought out and reasoned.
Posted by IrishTD (Member # 2216) on :
Welcome to Ornery, Rhoetus! You are wrong (especially on that tOSU part)!

Oh, and happy birthday to me (27...and still in grad school).
Posted by Rhoetus (Member # 3937) on :
Hello, my name is Rhoetus, and I am wrong.
Posted by kenmeer livermaile (Member # 2243) on :
Who gave you the right to be wrong on your own? You're right until told otherwise, sir... and trust me, we'll tell you. [Wink]
Posted by Rhoetus (Member # 3937) on :
So I'm wrong about being wrong? Good to know.
Posted by hobsen (Member # 2923) on :
Anyway, Rhoetus, welcome to Ornery. Historical analogies are used constantly in this forum, often the same ones to support both sides of a discussion, so it will be useful to have one more member who has learned a lot about that subject to cut through some of the confusion.
Posted by guinevererobin (Member # 4024) on :
Hello all,
My name is Guin. I was linked to the OSC article from and thought this was an interesting site.

I'm 23 years old, politically conservative though I have a huge bleeding heart. I'd be a Democrat if I thought their policies ever helped anyone, but instead I believe change depends on individuals, not the government. I volunteer at a homeless outreach but since I'm a U.S. Marine and work long hours, I can't do as much to help in the community as I would like.

Since I just confessed to be a Marine officer, I will add: I have not been to Iraq yet. I am going around January. My opinions are mine alone and not representative of the U.S. Marine Corps.

There. Properly disclaimered, I will continue with my intro. In terms of religion I am a rather bad Christian, Protestant persuasion, deeply interested in theological discussion. I am engaged to an agnostic with some hostility towards religion, which partially fuels this interest.

I really like french fries, running along the ocean (I live in Cali), and playing Guitar Hero.
Posted by msquared (Member # 113) on :
Welcome guinevererobin,

You are wrong (Traditional Ornery welcome)

My uncle was a Marine for 20 some years. Ended up a full bird Col. before cancer made him retire.

Posted by guinevererobin (Member # 4024) on :
Wow. I am seriously addicted to this site already.

And feel like I have a lot to learn about rhetoric.

But my long-term life goals involve getting my PhD and teaching, so any opportunity to increase my reasoning and debate skills can't hurt. [Smile]
Posted by hobsen (Member # 2923) on :
Guinevererobin, an online friend of three or four years is a reserve lieutenant in the Austrian army. At the moment he is engaged, in his words, in "crawling about the woods in command of a bunch of trigger-happy idiots." I very much hope he survives.

Let us hope that you also survive Iraq and go on to get that Ph.D. and teach college. The "ivory tower" mentality is real, and your military experience will surely make you a better teacher. Any experience outside the classroom helps in that.
Posted by Eowyn (Member # 4220) on :

I'm Eowyn, 22, from Texas. I'm about to finish a degree in agricultural engineering from Texas A&M University and getting ready to move to Baltimore for a master's in environmental engineering.

I've been lurking on the boards for awhile and will probably continue to do so, but I'd like to be registered just in case I can actually contribute at some point. ^_~ I'm a Catholic with largely Republican sympathies, but it's not at all uncommon for me to disagree with the viewpoints of either.

I love to read, especially C.S. Lewis, G.K. Chesterton, Terry Pratchett, Tolkien, Dostoyevsky, and of course OSC. I was actually thrilled to find the World Watch columns and discover Card's political opinions, although I always remember to take my dose of salt.
Posted by guinevererobin (Member # 4024) on :
Welcome Eowyn. I'm also a big fan of CS Lewis and GK Chesterton, so I'm immediately predisposed in your favor. If you do start posting though, I'm sure you'll say something I dislike soon. Glad to have you. [Smile]
Posted by MySinsEcho (Member # 4022) on :
Heya Ornery Forums!

I'm 15, Jewish, live in Connecticut, freshmen at a small private high school. Found the site 'cause OSC is my favorite author.

My favorite class is definately Civilizations {Honors of course! [Big Grin] ) and all history in general....Since I'm only covering ~3000 B.C.E. to 1500 C.E. Figured that I should bone up on my current events info.

So far been lovin' all the discussions and such from the site, hope I can get into 'em soon!


[ April 19, 2007, 12:04 AM: Message edited by: MySinsEcho ]
Posted by gruevy (Member # 2985) on :
Allow me to be the first to say welcome!

You are wrong.

(standard greeting)
Posted by Koalaborg (Member # 4407) on :
Hi! I am Koalaborg and I just came across this site, as I am a fan of OSC.

To sum up my introduction, I am a 29 year old mother, christian, science nerd, and conspiracy theorist. Okay, maybe not so much on that last one, but since I don't buy into what the media is trying to sell, it feels that way sometimes. [Razz]

I'm currently finishing up my graduate research in Florida. My favorite authors are OSC (of course), CJ Cherryh, and Dan Simmons, though I am making an effort to read more classics. I am currently working my way through H.G. Wells. I enjoy discussions on most anything of substance so I am really looking forward to being active on this forum.
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on :
Welcome to you both.

Echo, If you read the basics of the forum you'll see that we don't care about your high fallutin education! [Wink] Really we could use some new young poeple. Our current young people have all grown up.

Koalaborg, I'm glad that it was just my failing eye sight and that on second look there WAS a comma between Christian and Science in your post. [Smile]

Look forward to hearing from you both. Don't be shy.

Posted by DaveS (Member # 2734) on :
If you like Wells, you might also like Olaf Stapledon.
Posted by garlicguy (Member # 4784) on :
Howdy from Montana. I finally decided to de-lurk for a bit and introduce myself. 57 year-old male.

I like the respectfulness of this site.

I don't mind being wrong, but ad hominem attacks make me crazy.
Posted by DaveS (Member # 2734) on :
Well, given your handle, maybe you shouldn't stand too close [Smile] . That's not an ad hominem attack, it's ad Allium. I figured I'd throw it in, since you already know that You're Wrong. So, what's the connection of garlic to guy?
Posted by garlicguy (Member # 4784) on :
Please see web page listed in my profile.
Posted by WarrsawPact (Member # 1275) on :
Awesome, garlicguy. I might have to try that stuff.
Posted by Dave at Work (Member # 1906) on :
Hey garlicguy, how are things over at geekculture? I mostly just lurk over there, though I think I signed up for the sauce giveaway back in June. I have no idea who one though. Anyways I think that you will like Ornery.

[ July 04, 2007, 12:30 AM: Message edited by: Dave at Work ]
Posted by Drew_Wight (Member # 4739) on :
I guess I better introduce myself, since I have already been involved in some debates- whether for good or evil is up to the reader. : )

My name is Andrew Wight and, believe it or not, I have been called "Ender" most of my life. My mother is an avid fan of OSC and gave me the nickname at a rather young age.

At most other forums, I am signed as "Ender" but it seemed a bit awkward here -so- I went by Drew- which I much prefer over Andrew.
Posted by garlicguy (Member # 4784) on :
Originally posted by Dave at Work:
Hey garlicguy, how are things over at geekculture?

In a word, weird.

I mostly just lurk over there, though I think I signed up for the sauce giveaway back in June. I have no idea who won though.

Well, if you are David Rogers at GC, you did win and I have been waiting to receive an email with your mailing address and choice of original or spicy.

Anyways I think that you will like Ornery.

I hope you're right (or is that wrong?) [Big Grin]

I may have to offer up some freebies around here as well.
Posted by DaveS (Member # 2734) on :
Can't hurt. You might not seem so wrong in our eyes if you do [Smile] . Your web site looks awesome, I got to get me some.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 99) on :
Salvatore's trilogy had some important things to say. That an individual is not merely a product of his/her enviroment or society. How prejudice cannot always be overcome, that there will always be those who will judge us by things that do not matter. How individuals can change.

Salvatore had to work with a brain-dead genre and a brain-dead universe.

The thing is, other people have said these same things better. And Salvatore didn't have to work with a brain-dead genre; he chose to work with a brain-dead genre.

What you're saying is that he managed to address a topic that other people have addressed with more grace and depth, in a genre -- D&D generic fantasy fiction -- that isn't known for any grace or depth at all. He's one of the best swimmers in the inflatable kiddie pool.
Posted by Redskullvw (Member # 188) on :
Your opinion Tom.

There are a lot of Professors of literature across America who would dismiss OSC's work because he chose the genre of science fiction. At most colleges and Universities in America science fiction is seen as the easiest of pulp consumer letter smithing. Or as you so neatly put it for a fantasy fiction writer comparatively- OSC just happens to be one of the best swimmers in the SciFi inflatable kiddie pool.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on :
OK, i can't believe I went to the trouble of finding the post that Tom was responding to, but I wanted to figure out what work of Salvatore was being discussed...

So what did I find? Tom responding to a post from SIX YEARS AGO!

Which is perfectly fine, just surprising.

Or did Ornery get these posts out of order somehow?
Posted by Redskullvw (Member # 188) on :
Nah you are just getting old , and your time here has been so long you are becoming just like the rest of us and forgetting snipits of conversations and arguments.

Like alot of stuff on Ornery, the longer you hang out here the more you know you already said something even if you can't find it.
Posted by Busillis (Member # 5048) on :

I've lurked for a while, recently decided to get an account.

I'm a college student in Chicago.
Posted by msquared (Member # 113) on :
Welcome, you are wrong. (Traditional Ornery welcome.)

Posted by threads (Member # 5091) on :
Hi all.

I'm 17 and live in New Jersey. I found this site while browsing the web for stuff on OSC (one of my favorite authors) and decided to sign up. Besides reading and using the computer, I like to exercise and railfan (watch trains).
Posted by DeLaMancha (Member # 5237) on :

I am new to the site. I am 27, from Texas, have a degree in finance (though I hate finance), am married with two young children, yadayadayada. Anyway, I used to post in a similar forum, but it seems hardly anyone posts there anymore. It's hard to get any good discussion there, unlike it seems to be the case here.

I am a AAA baseball player, hoping to be in the big leagues next year, so I don't get to do this much during the season. Now that the season is over, I have a lot more time to waste in front of my computer! I hope to learn from your different perspectives.
Posted by hobsen (Member # 2923) on :
OSC fans do gather here, threads. And you sound a bit more successful than Don Quixote, DeLaMancha. AAA ball is thoroughly professional, even if you are hoping for the big leagues. You are both wrong, of course. (Traditional Ornery greeting.) But so are the rest of us, far more often than we should like...
Posted by Mynnion (Member # 5287) on :
I started posting a couple of days ago so I figured I would pass on a little information about myself.

I am 40 something. I have three daughters the oldest one recently married.

I work with robotics and have broad and varied interests.

I attended a small Christian college in Virginia and have degrees in Biology and Medical technology.

I am neither Liberal or Conservative or am both Liberal and Conservative. It all depends on the subject matter and perspective.

I consider myself a progressive Christian.

I am frequently wrong but am always open to hear what is right.

Posted by bombasto (Member # 5217) on :
I've been posting here for a couple weeks. I'm almost always wrong (just ask wife or kids) so I feel like I am at home here. Like Mynnion, I'm also 40 something and in Virginia but I have 5 kids -- which makes me tend to be (big surprise) conservative. I spent 10 years in US Army enlisted and have worked for the last 12 years as a contractor supporting same. I like the conversation here because, even though many seem to be far left of my decidedly wrong-headed positions, I appreciate the intelligent dialog. Oh, I came here because of OSC but obviously he's not here. I only wanted to post the occasional reply to his essays but I keep getting drawn into other topics here and, that's a good thing (until family decides I should rejoin the real world).
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on :
Welcome to you all.

DeLaMancha, I'm in Houston. What part of Texas are you in? You're not at Round Rock are you?


[ September 30, 2007, 03:07 PM: Message edited by: KnightEnder ]
Posted by Redskullvw (Member # 188) on :
Oh come on no one new has joined lately?
Posted by scouser1 (Member # 3455) on :
Ya know what, I dont even think i posted on this when i started, oops!! [DOH]

[ October 13, 2007, 10:25 AM: Message edited by: scouser1 ]
Posted by Jesse (Member # 1860) on :
Me neither.
Posted by DeLaMancha (Member # 5237) on :
KE, I live in Frisco, but I just bought a house in Arlington. I grew up in Houston, more specifically, Pasadena. I went to school at Strake Jesuit in Sharpstown. My family still lives in Houston, and all my friends from school of course. We go back about 3 or 4 times a year, but I'm glad to not be living there anymore. Sorry!
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on :
I grew up in Pasadena over in those apartments on Richey and 225, (my dad was a cop in Pasadena for 25 years) and went to Pasadena High. My wife Stacy grew up on the berry streets and went to Sam Rayburn. I graduated in 86, how about you?

We have been in League City for almost twenty years now our oldest is 18 and senior at Clear Creek. We have a house on the water in Tuscan Lakes. I sitll miss the smell of the plants, but not the cancer. [Wink]

Posted by DeLaMancha (Member # 5237) on :
I know you're kidding about the smell! I graduated in '98. We grew up in the ShadowLawn subdivision at Richey and Southmore. I went to St. Pius V on Shaver grade school and Queens Intermediate. My sister went to Clear Creek. Small world!
Posted by Clark (Member # 2727) on :
KE, my dad graduated from Pasadena High and PCC. But that was in '68, not '86. But still, it's always interesting to see that it's a small world. Of course, my dad also went to school in about 10 cities across 6 states, so I constantly find people that live where he's lived.
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on :

They just a couple of years ago finally rebuilt the school, even though it was considered one of the nicest looking school in the state, so we probably actually shared some of the same actual classrooms. Like you said. Small world.

Sad to say; nowadays they have police-gang-task forces in the school daily. [Frown]

In my day, and probably your dad's, if you had a fight for me, fist-a-cuffs for your dad, you had beers with that guy that night. Nowadays they shoot each other. There is no honor in our schools anymore.


[ November 07, 2007, 02:02 PM: Message edited by: KnightEnder ]
Posted by TheSteelenGeneral (Member # 5530) on :
Hi, I hope to have fruitful discussions here.

I too, would like to say I Am Wrong, but my heart wouldn't be in it.

Yet, my head tells me that I am wrong, from time to time, except when I'm right of course [Smile]

My interests are:
Global warming and the green house effect
us politics, but more the 2008 elections
US crime laws against the under 18s.

Yes, I am a leftwinger, "a dangerous liberal" in the tradition of Roosevelt, Kennedy, Carter, and the Clintons.
Posted by Talltwin (Member # 5610) on :
Let's try this again, only without the incriminating names.

I am a 44 year old male living in Dayton, Ohio. I have been married for 15 years. I have two kids (one still living at home).

I am an analyst/loan closer for a regional commercial mortgage banking firm. I am well compensated for a job that I am over qualified for.

My wife and I own an 86 unit apartment complex in town and that keeps our free time busy.

I am genetically identical to msquared. Having known msquared since conception, I already know that I am wrong.

I am not OrneryMod.

Edidted to correct spelling. Grrrr.

[ November 13, 2007, 02:51 PM: Message edited by: Talltwin ]
Posted by tonylovern (Member # 2580) on :
so can we call to T-squared? [Razz]
Posted by Talltwin (Member # 5610) on :
Had not thought of that. Of course, according to msquared, I have not thought about a whole lot since I first imbibed alcohol in college.

I need to see if I need to get approval for a similar nickname.

Posted by msquared (Member # 113) on :
My original plan was to use him as a body bank. But after seeing what he has done to his body, I think I need to come up with a new plan.

Posted by erik the awful (Member # 2347) on :

I've lurked here on and off for a couple of years; Javelin pointed out these forums to me. Jav and I are friends.

I'm 35. Married 12 years, with a 4 year old and a 3 week old. I'm really tired.

I work with computers and networks; I break stuff and tell stories about how it broke. We call that "Quality Assurance." I'm likely to have geeky humor. When I have free time I brew stout beer and red wine. I was raised seventh day adventist, converted to "non-denominational" Christianity somewhere right after high school, and gave up on Christianity entirely about 2 years ago.

I've decided to start posting in an attempt to improve my writing and critical thinking abilities.

You are all wrong [Smile]

Editied to add: I consider my self socially liberal and fiscally conservative.

[ November 15, 2007, 12:09 PM: Message edited by: erik the awful ]
Posted by Funean (Member # 2345) on :
Hi, erik! You've posted before; I remember. You're still wrong, except when I agree with you, of course. [Big Grin]

I recognize that tiredness. It gets a bit better when they're 4 and 8, but then they're talking to (arguing with) you.

Tell jav hi, and that he's missed. [Smile]
Posted by WarrsawPact (Member # 1275) on :
SteelenGeneral -
Yes, I am a leftwinger
Yet, my head tells me that I am wrong, from time to time, except when I'm right of course
The more right you get, the less wrong you are. [Wink]

[ November 15, 2007, 09:18 PM: Message edited by: WarrsawPact ]
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on :
Hey Erik. I remember you, too. Welcome back.

And congratulations on the new baby. Feel free to keep your posts concise until you start getting a modicum of sleep. It's good to have you back.

(I like Jav a lot too, but I don't care much for Mark. [Smile] Go figure.)

Posted by msquared (Member # 113) on :

Posted by erik the awful (Member # 2347) on :
Originally posted by KnightEnder:
(I like Jav a lot too, but I don't care much for Mark. [Smile] Go figure.)

I'm confused. [Frown]
Posted by Funean (Member # 2345) on :
Quick, KE, specify which Mark's feelings you're hurting!

I like all the Marks.

Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on :
Ahh...I didn't mean to hurt any of his feelings. I was just funning. [Smile] He/They should know that. I like M2 by whatever name he goes by. But I like him best when he doesn't have to carry out his official duties.

I have a thing about authority figures. I didn't even like being one.

But of all I've seen here, you've been as good as the best. [Smile]


[ November 17, 2007, 07:47 PM: Message edited by: KnightEnder ]
Posted by Tisiphone (Member # 5240) on :
Posted by msquared (Member # 113) on :

You are wrong (standard Ornery welcome.)

Posted by BrowningLA (Member # 5634) on :
Hi all, just introducing myself to your wonderful site. I might not be the clearest with my words but I usually get my point across. With the current political situation I’m a little ashamed to admit it but I am a registered Republican. I believe in limited government, the right to own guns and lower taxes. Looking at the other side of the isles I’m pro choice, I support gay marriage, and believe global warming is a real issue that needs to be addressed. I look forward to talking with all of you.

Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on :
Welcome to Ornery. You are wrong. Really wrong since you seem sensible and well balanced.
But, worry not, we'll fix that and have you a raving fanatic that sees things only in black and white in no time at all. [Smile]


[ November 19, 2007, 04:01 PM: Message edited by: KnightEnder ]
Posted by OceanRunner (Member # 5605) on :

and don't worry about what KE said... some of us manage to see things in black and white without being fanatical because, well, we're right... [Smile]
Posted by Funean (Member # 2345) on :

Posted by kino pravda (Member # 5595) on :
Hi folks, I'm a California native who is currently going to school in Boston where we learn to never trust the media [Wink] (also where people carrying paper mache figures of two-headed bush-cheney monsters march outside your residence hall). I picked up OSC's Children of the Mind off a teacher's shelf when I was 13. That was when OSC became one of my favorite authors. It was also when I reminded myself that books are easier to understand if you start from the first book in the series.

I am religious, more conservative than liberal, am used to being wrong, and my favorite color is grey, because it's made from mixing black and white.
Posted by WarrsawPact (Member # 1275) on :
BrowningLA -

From what you've said so far, you sound a lot like a friend of mine. You consider yourself libertarian?
Posted by TrueGRIT (Member # 5711) on :
I'm a 39yo female native Texan. A small blue speck in a big ol' red state. Married for almost 20 years, 2 kids, busy working and momming, and I'm back in school after a 20 year hiatus. I still don't really know what I want to be when I grow up, but I'm entertaining the idea of law school.

I'm intelligent (and intelligence is important to me,) terribly interested in politics and the world around me, but relatively ignorant about current affairs due to sheer laziness. I'll get there. I'll have to to keep up with you guys.
Posted by Funean (Member # 2345) on :
Welcome to Ornery. You are wrong. (traditional greeting)

I get most of my current events here, or at least I figure what I should probably know more about.

I can think of at least one member who will be happy to know about a(nother) blue speck in Texas.

And, Yay!!! Another female. It smells like armpit around here most of the time. [Smile]
Posted by TrueGRIT (Member # 5711) on :
I was wondering about the smell. [Razz]
Posted by kenmeer livermaile (Member # 2243) on :
Ah, the sweet smell of legpits...
Posted by kenmeer livermaile (Member # 2243) on :
Can I get a snerk? What does a fellow have to do to blow a little coffee through the nostrils of his fellow posters?
Posted by kenmeer livermaile (Member # 2243) on :
Oh. Noon west coast. Four PM east coast.

No coffee. Like George Burns said, "Timing is everything."
Posted by Funean (Member # 2345) on :

Will Diet Coke do? Coffee's not till after I get the kids (in, lessee, 6 minutes).

Legpits is the word my boy gave that place behind your knees. They don't smell much, at least not on little boys.
Posted by kenmeer livermaile (Member # 2243) on :
He don't know yet, do him? [Wink]
Posted by caladbolg1125 (Member # 3666) on :
Grit, hey, I ain't the one Fun was talking about but from one blue Texas speck to another: Hi!
Posted by TrueGRIT (Member # 5711) on :
Hi there! [Smile] Nicetomeetya!
Posted by Chael (Member # 2436) on :
Obviously, the entirety of Texas's lib'rul population is on this board.

(A'yep, I'm one of them. Hello, Grit. [Smile] )
Posted by OpsanusTau (Member # 2350) on :
We always called those kneepits.
Posted by kenmeer livermaile (Member # 2243) on :
Aye. Actually, it works like this: men have one leg pit. Women have two.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on :
Hello folks,

My name is munga, or mungagungadin (at LGF) and I am 36, mother of four (ages 5m,10m,12f,14m), wife of John (my beloved) currently living in Portland but expecting to move, we are all Mormon.

I'm involved in energy, finance and integration engineering, and politically schizoid. You can read a record of sorts at, start at page 150.

OSC has been a favored writer but I've come to dislike his writing hiatuses which leave a voracious appetite without satisfaction. For instance..... how dare he drop the Alvin series, JUST when it was getting truly fascinating? I wonder if it is cold feet, lack of imagination past a point of projection, or political fear that causes lack of progress? In any case, my favorite writer of all time is Lois McMaster Bujold. I think, at the very least, that every child should have a chance to read one of her lesser known hits, Falling Free, to appreciate the sensation of stepping out of "boxes," a necessity if America is to remain a superpower.

I do enjoy a place where the standard greeting is "You Are Wrong"--- what an interesting place this is!

[ January 24, 2008, 03:34 PM: Message edited by: munga ]
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on :
the time of editing my initial post has elapsed (by the way, this is a feature I love). so, as both of the links above were invalidated by the fact that I put punctuation after each reference, let me provide them both again without punctuation:

for the DOE Record

for the book by McMaster Bujold

[ January 24, 2008, 05:19 PM: Message edited by: munga ]
Posted by Redskullvw (Member # 188) on :
Posted by Jesse (Member # 1860) on :

We're all wrong too.

Don't tell anyone I told you, these people can be downright grumpy on occasion.
Posted by seekingprometheus (Member # 3043) on :
Welcome to ornery, munga. [Smile]
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on :
Redskull, Jesse, and seekingprometheus, thank you for the welcome. I've already gotten a nice hello from KnightEnder. It would be great if this thread could be given an isolated search, or a mechanism so that a name could be endered to find the introduction they offered (but I know, that is what the profiles are for) but really, I don't think filling in blanks is as informative as this conversational format.

In any case, I loved watching McCain get creamed tonight, and I stand by the prediction I made on the eve of the Bush Election of 04: it's going to be a Romney/Giuliani ticket.
Posted by mytreeisempty (Member # 6017) on :
Hello everyone! I am 25 year old music teacher from the Jersey shore. I am getting married in July. I guess am somewhere between democrat and liberterian, although I don't follow much politics. I am here more for current events and interesting topic discussion. I have been just browsing for a few days, and figured it was high time to join up. See you around!
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on :
Welcome, again, to OA mytreeisempty. You are wrong. (traditional greeting) We'll get around to what you are wrong about in due time.

Congratulations, again, on your upcoming nuptials. Does your intended share your political views? I'm 40 and have been married for 20 years and although the first years can be trying I can tell you that every year after gets easier and easier. You don't fight/argue over the small things once you realize you are going to be together forever.

I have two sons 18 and 15 and they are the joy of my life. Though sometimes the constant worry makes one wonder if the joy is worthwile.

Seriously I can't imagine life without them. If I may be so bold, and feel free not to answer; do y'all have plans to have children someday? If so, how many? If you do you can't imagine how your life will change. You think you know love until you hold your child in your arms.

We live in Texas, but I am a liberal atheist. I used to hate the religious, and am still not thrilled with organized religion, but the good religious people here on OA have taught me that most religious people are good caring people. Not the; "You'll burn in Hell!" Southern Baptists I'm surrounded by.

A music teacher? Do you play any instruments? My youngest plays the trumpet, I play the piano and the drums a little (we both read music), and he and I have just bought guitars and are begining to take lessons. Sometimes I think what a terrible world this would be without music.

If you don't mind we would love to hear about your soon to be fiancee and anything else about you you wish to share? Where you born in Jersey? Was your husband? How did you meet?

I for one, and I think I speak for most of us, am delighted to have you join us. We could use an influx of new blood and new ideas.

We are a civil group; or at least we strive to be. I think you will fit in fine here. Feel free to invite your betrothed if he wishes he is more than welcome. My oldest son posts here from time to time, but alas, my wife, Stacy, has many friends on the Olivia Newton John boards on AOL and that's where she spends most of her time. They meet up and fly around the country to see her perform. In fact she had dinner with one of her online friends just tonight. The first time she flew to meet them I thought she would never return. But thankfully she did.

In fact, Stacy, has met her idol, Olivia, several times and has the pics to prove it. I'm jealous. I never got to meet John Wayne. A strange hero for a liberal, neh? But then I'm strange. Ask anyone.

Welcome, welcome, welcome.

Knight Ender
John L. Myers IV
(I answer to most anything, but KE seems to be my identity here at OA.

This is a magical place and you can get a great deal out of it if you put in the effort. The good people here are always ready to lend a helping hand or peice of advice. Sometimes even when the advice is unsolicited. [Wink]

I have met members in the real world for lunch or dinner all over the world and it has always been great. Even though those I met with didn't share most of my views. In fact, we pride ourselves on being able to be friends with people that aren't carbon copies of ourselves. It broadens the character, IMO (in my opinion, anyway. It definitely makes you examine your beliefs, if not defend them).

I hope you stay, and enjoy your time here. Invite your friends. But beware you may end up revealing things to us, safe stranger/friends, that you might not want the "real" people in your life to know about.

I can't tell you how much I've benefited from this forum. And though OSC and I are polar opposites politically, I love his writing, and have thanked him many times for providing us with this Oasis in the ocean of filth and profanity that you find on many forums and the internet in general.

Once again; tell us more about yourself when you are ready. There are several "Threads" that have pictures of some members or basics of our geography; you can use the 'Search' function at the top of the page to find the thread for the pics (it is not the most reliable search engine ever, so don't get frustrated, somebody will find if for you if you can't get it to work); I think the picture thread is titled "On the Internet Nobody Knows You are a Dog." The thread was started by a longtime female member called 'simplybiological' (I miss her) (I think I may have told you or munga that recently, but my mind is going). She live here in Texas, too, though in Austin whereas I'm in Houston.

The MC thread at the top of the General Comments forum, my baby, is a place where you can talk about anything you want, without having to start a whole new Thread. Or you can just say "Hi", inquire about a member, discuss the weather, or recomend a new movie or song you have discovered. I hope to see you there. Don't be shy.



[ February 05, 2008, 05:04 AM: Message edited by: KnightEnder ]
Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on :
Wow. Longest. Welcome. Ever.

(good on you, KE!)
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on :
[Embarrassed] Ah, shucks.

She sounds interesting, and we can use all the interesting people we can get. Plus, I guess it's obvious I love this place; so that's my OA sales-pitch. [Smile]

Posted by Juxtapose (Member # 6033) on :
Hello world!

I've been posting over at Hatrack for a year and change, and lurking here for a little while. I decided to make an account on the off chance I have something of substance to add (unlikely).

Demographic rundown: I'm a twenty-something multiracial moderate-liberal atheist Seattlite. Yay! I sling coffee for a living.

I look forward to being proven wrong often and with enthusiasm.
Posted by canadian (Member # 1809) on :
Don't get discouraged!

I can't say it's worth it.

Posted by vegimo (Member # 6023) on :
Hello all,

I'm a Texan (D/FW) by way of CO and NJ, and I'm loving it here beause I get to play golf all year. Next Tuesday's tee time is 10A at Fossil Creek. I try not to let my job interfere too much with my game - last week I got to visit the Twin Cities for a taste of 5 below - but sometimes I have to stay home and work. The coffee and pajamas bit affords me the time to browse, and here I am.

I have always tried to refrain from talking about religion and politics because I just have never had the passion for it. My Father was a minister, and the paths I followed because of that situation caused my reticence on the former, but I have recently become more interested in discussing the latter. There was a legal battle in my town in which I became involved, and I started to wrangle with a reporter from one of the local papers. It became an amusing hobby of mine and led quickly to some interesting subjects since he is a Bush-hating, 9/11-truthing, self-proclaimed H.S. Thompson devotee, and I feel that I have found my inner 'ornery.'

I found this site because my youngest daughter loves OSCs work and told me about the essays he was writing here. I have browsed for a while and now I am ready to see how many disagree with me on issues of no major concern. I'm off to make my first (next) post.

Posted by Deebz of the SoulShattered (Member # 6007) on :
I read Ender's Game around freshman year. I grew up with So. Bap. mom and a Traditional dance dad. Being called an apple gets old, but I think that positive religions are right. God equals love. Therefore, the lack of God is the Devil(hate). I was married. I've only had one girlfriend who became my wife. Two years of my life are a lotta bit hazy. Now I am going back to school.
Posted by Jordan (Member # 2159) on :
Can I get a snerk? What does a fellow have to do to blow a little coffee through the nostrils of his fellow posters?

Wait, did I miss a meeting, or has snerking Funean become the official Ornery pastime?

That poor girl must be afraid to put anything in her mouth…
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on :
Welcome to you both. You are both wrong. I have a feeling one of you is going to be really wrong, but we can help. [Smile]


Was that some kind of poke at lesbians?

Posted by Jordan (Member # 2159) on :

Was that some kind of poke at lesbians?

The thought didn't even occur to me until now!
Posted by kenmeer livermaile (Member # 2243) on :
Especially a snerk...
Posted by Funean (Member # 2345) on :
I had no idea that "snerk" was a transitive verb....!
Posted by Jordan (Member # 2159) on :
Isn't verbing groovy, baby? [Smile]
Posted by kenmeer livermaile (Member # 2243) on :
Talk about verbaciously groovy babes...

...and what in hell's a transitive verb? Is that like sci-fi talk

[ March 01, 2008, 11:51 AM: Message edited by: kenmeer livermaile ]
Posted by Deebz of the SoulShattered (Member # 6007) on :
I think I wish to be proved wrong, ignoredm, and congratulated. Just not by all y'all. All rules have exceptions;)
Posted by caladbolg1125 (Member # 3666) on :
Except for this one. [Razz]
Posted by Jordan (Member # 2159) on :
I was sure that here, of all places, a question about grammar would not go long unanswered! [Razz]

...and what in hell's a transitive verb? Is that like sci-fi talk

It just means that the verb takes one or more objects.

Intransitive: I'm going to play.
Transitive: I'm going to play Guitar Hero.

A bit of colourful innuendo should make it easy to remember:

Intransitive verbs only have a subject: I slept…
Transitive verbs recruit a bit of help: …with your mom.

Actually, I think that "snerk" would be ambitransitive (i.e. it goes both ways). "Funean had a particularly long snerk" sounds like a valid sentence to me.
Posted by Funean (Member # 2345) on :

Posted by UberDog (Member # 6042) on :
I am 31, male from Chicago. I write. I have a degree in philosophy.

I know things about pigeons.
Posted by hobsen (Member # 2923) on :
Homing pigeons? I have always found them interesting since one landed in our yard complete with its little message pouch, for a rest before continuing homeward. Or at least I hope it was not lost, and did not get eaten by something. Anyway our knowledge of pigeons is probably slight, so perhaps you can enlighten us.
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on :
Welcome Uber Dog. As you can see in the rules expertise and titles don't matter. So don't try to wow us with your knowledge of pigeons. [Wink]

Except for Hobsen. He's easily impressed. [Smile]

To be serious, I'm more intersted in your views on philosophy. We may not stand on titles but we do endeavor to learn from each other. At least the brighter and less entrenched of us do.

If fact, Paladine has started an Ornery School of sorts in which experts in any matter start a thread and share their expertise or simply take questions. Philosphy would make a great subject. I believe you'll find a lot of us know a little about the subject. But then, a lot us know a little about everything. But most of us, or maybe just me, know hardly anything about everything.

However, we stand on the shoulders of giants. You can be our philosophy giant. [Smile]


[ March 06, 2008, 11:11 AM: Message edited by: KnightEnder ]
Posted by IrishTD (Member # 2216) on :
UberDog, it's amusing you mention pigeons because SI just had an article on pigeon racing a couple of weeks ago. Here's a link to that story.
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on :
Damn it Irish!

You and Hobsen are setting him up to be the bird man of Ornery. Pretty soon we'll all be sending messages by pigeons and we won't even need Ornery! And it will be on your head, my friend.

Posted by RickyB (Member # 1464) on :
"That poor girl must be afraid to put anything in her mouth…"

Yeh dirty, dirty... [Big Grin]

Ah, language is fun. Almost makes up for all the bugs.
Posted by IrishTD (Member # 2216) on :

I won't be sending messages by pigeon anytime soon. They're dirty, snack food for real birds, and would freeze to death pretty quickly. Plus, they're slow (and you can't name them, because they might not make it "home").
Posted by Kat_Freeman (Member # 6081) on :
Hullo! I saw you all having fun on here and would like to ask: can I play?

I'm 23-year-old a female "libertarian" from NH (more by proximity of beliefs than by party). I didn't vote for Ron Paul.

My undergraduate degree (and heart) is in theatre. Peter Wiggin is my hero (sans the squirrel/Ender-beating incidents). I'm working on my master's in library science, but I love my job as a robotics/industrial curriculum writer so much the diploma may end up being no more than a poster for the wall.

Sorry to lead with credentials, but it's... it's all I know how to do! Don't act like you're not impressed. [Wink]

Posted by DaveS (Member # 2734) on :
Indeed. Accept that You Are Wrong already and the doors swing open in welcome. As long as you don't try to hang your credentials on our walls, I think you will have fun [Smile] . Welcome!
Posted by Redskullvw (Member # 188) on :

As usual, even though we aren't supposed to be impressed by other people's credentials as pertains to our public mission statement, I am pretty sure a bunch of us are already impressed. Plus anyone who likes Peter better than Ender is likely to understand Realpolitik better than most.
Posted by JRS (Member # 6079) on :
Hi, I'm John. I currently live in Augusta, GA, but will likely move to get into a good history MA or Ph.D. program- though I really want to write when I grow up.

I'd already read some Card, but read Speaker for the Dead while I was sitting on a tiny firebase in Afghanistan. I'm an anthropology minor, and I loved it.
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on :
Welcome Kat and John. You are both wrong.

John, one of the most beautiful women I ever met was a girl of Hawaiian decent living in Georgia. She had a lovely Southern accent. Her name was Hope. If I hadn't been married at the time...Do you know her? [Smile]

I look forward to getting to know the both of you. And John, she used to go out with a guy named Bam Bam, I kid you not. If you could find her there's a fresh new finsky in it for you. [Smile]

Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on :
"Funean had a particularly long snerk" sounds like a valid sentence to me.

Wish I had a particularly long snerk. [Frown]

Kat, I think 23 year old female librarians are hot. Really glad you're here. [Smile]


[ May 07, 2008, 03:53 PM: Message edited by: KnightEnder ]
Posted by kenmeer livermaile (Member # 2243) on :
Quit whining about your pee-pee, KE. It makes Fun snerk. [Wink]
Posted by Jesse (Member # 1860) on :
No, KE, she said Libertarian. What with being dead inside and the coating of poor childrens blood all over them, they aren't hot at all.
Posted by Valaorome (Member # 6056) on :
Hey guys, guess it's time for an introduction thread....

I've been reading forums for the better part of 6 months or so. Was introduced to it by my brother, (Paladine.) I'm less informed, less articulate and less interested than he is. Though, I tend to agree with most of what he says. (Except when he goes crazy [Smile] I consider myself conservative, although, I don't like most of what goes on today on either side of the isle.

Anyways, I look forward to having you all argue with me, and it's nice to finally post [Smile]
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on :
Welcome to OA Val. I guess being Pal's brother you know you are even wronger than most first time posters. [Smile]

Posted by Paladine (Member # 1932) on :
Paladine *never* goes crazy. [Smile]
Posted by Jordan (Member # 2159) on :
I love our Catholic members, they get all the family involved. [Smile]

Speaking of Catholics… Where's Carlotta? I miss her! [Frown]
Posted by Paladine (Member # 1932) on :
Me too. [Frown]
Posted by Lloyd (Member # 6118) on :
Hi a relatively new (3 months or so ) lurker here thought I'd stop by and introduce myself. But, don't expect me to be very verbose on any subject because I definitely prefer lurking and learning over displaying my ignorance.

I'm a 40 yr old divorced, single parent with one child. I'm currently living in Central Texas, but have been all over the US in the last ten years. I make my living as a computer programmer, mostly on oracle databases, but my degree is in Mechanical Engineering. (All knowledge of which has been long since forgotten from non use unfortunately.)

I served as an ELT in the Navy many years ago and that kick started my interest in energy generation in general and nuclear in particular.

My politics are generally libertarian, but I tend to shy away from their more anarchistic policies.

I was raised a Mormon, and still believe mostly in what they teach.

And I guess above all -- I'll be the first to admit I am wrong. [Smile]
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on :
NO NO NO! Lloyd, you have deprived us of our traditional greeting!

Welcome to you, anyway. I'm relatively new myself, but I have found I like it here.
Posted by Individual Persona (Member # 6105) on :
Am I supposed to say something?

I'm me...I live on earth, I believe in...stuff.

Oh! I know how to introduce myself.

He who knows, and knows that he knows, he is wise, follow him.

He who knows, and does not know that he knows, he is asleep, wake him.

He who does not know, and knows he does not know, he is a child, teach him.

He who does not know, and does not know that he does not know, he is a fool...kick his butt.

I may have taken artistic licence with that last bit...but it's something a friend of mine told me a while back. I'm afraid I don't know who "thunk" it up.

For the record, I am the child.

And yes, I've already been told that I am wrong.
...barely ten posts and people are already lying to me.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on :
it's a deflowering ritual
Posted by HadouKen24 (Member # 6111) on :
Hey, all. Nice to find a place where there exist internet people who think about things a bit.

I'm 23 and I live in Oklahoma. I just graduated with a Bachelor's in philosophy, and I'm still looking for a job. Long term plans will probably involve law school.

My opinions are my own. I generally avoid groupthink, but it seems impossible to eliminate it from my thought patterns entirely. I enjoy reading the works of (mostly) long-dead philosophers, present day crackpots, and science fiction/fantasy authors. My interest in politics is a result of my overall interest in society as a whole; my minor is in sociology, a field I enjoy, though its presuppositions are sometimes cringe-worthy.

Politically, I tend to align myself with the libertarian party. My reasons for agreeing with their political conclusions are at odds with theirs, but we share the same political goal--the weakening of the federal government.

Religiously, I believe what I believe. Suffice to say that I fit into no neat categories. I'm not a monotheist, atheist, polytheist, or pantheist, but someone who might fit under any of those categories depending on how one construed their criteria. (Trust me, it ends up being quite coherent, as unlikely as that seems.)

My first love, though, is and always will be philosophy. I have a special hatred for poor arguments, and will do whatever I can to show why they are flawed. (Usually by taking the opposing side as a Devil's Advocate. I do this so often that my last roommate said I can't possibly believe anything. Which has a kernel of truth.)
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on :
huh. What are ya planning to do with that philosophy degree, or how soon until you go to law school?

By the way, I have a particular loathing for lawyers. When someone sends me their lawyer, they are doing it so that they, themselves, do not lie on the record to me. It's annoying.

So, for that choice, let me tell you the welcome--- you are wrong.
Posted by HadouKen24 (Member # 6111) on :
Thanks for the welcome! I shall accept my being wrong and, in true internet style, cling to my tattered opinions like a miser clutching his last $20.

Well, the philosophy degree obviously segues into the law career--nothing teaches you the basics of sophistry quicker than having to agree with philosophy professors. (I kid, I kid.) I plan to get a boring job as a lease records clerk or customer service rep or something in the meantime. Law school will be in a couple years or so--just long enough to get a taste of the "real world."

(Forgive my overuse of parentheticals.)

For what it's worth, I'm inspired to go into law in part by my father, who works for the state. Suffice to say that if he had lived in Sodom, its chances of avoiding brimstone would have doubled. It's perfectly possible to keep one's integrity in the practice of law. It's just difficult, if you're in the wrong area.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on :
Using a lot of parentheticals should help you fit in around here (really [Wink] ).
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on :
Welcome Hadou,

You sound very, erm, unique. And we really really need that around here.

Look around you all you see are sympathetic eyes.
Stroll around the grounds until you feel at home. [Smile]

Also, welcome to IP and Loyd. Loyd I'm in Houston, or just outside of it. We have quite a few Texans here. As for being wrong? I don't see how anyone that believes aliens from another planet inhabit our bodies and make us wear magic underwear could possibly be wrong about anything? [Wink] I kid. Mormonism is my favorite flavor of religion. I don't know what they teach y'all in those "secret" rituals, but whatever it is I wish someone would clue in the Southern Baptists. In fact, Mormons are the only thing that gives me hope for religion at all.


Posted by Jesse (Member # 1860) on :
I think Scientologists and Mormons got a bit mixed up in your head there, KE.

It's best to watch those two south parks a few weeks apart, not back to back [Smile]
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on :
But we share financial advisors.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on :
Oh, I just figured KE was referring to spirits from the spirit world inhabiting our bodies. Not how Mormons describe it, but not that far off either.
Posted by jimskater (Member # 181) on :
I'm Jim, I live in El Cajon, CA. (15 miles east of San Diego (and a whole different world from the LA/SF left coast image). HR/Safety coordinator for a construction defect consulting firm. (I used to be their accounting manager). I'm planning on getting married in October to my partner of 20 years. I think I know Jordan from another forum (related to our mutual interest in MINIs). I look around me and I try to be thoughtful, but sometimes I'm barely managing to keep my temper at a simmer. I'm right handed, but I lean to the left. I hung out here for a bit a while back, then went on to other things.

(Parenthetically, I'm wondering if I'll fit in around here this time around. [Wink] )

[ June 10, 2008, 09:52 PM: Message edited by: jimskater ]
Posted by DaveS (Member # 2734) on :
You're no doubt Wrong, especially if you don't talk to us. If you do, You're still Wrong, but you'll get used to it.
Posted by jimskater (Member # 181) on :
The base assumption is thus that I'm Wrong.

Am I Wrong?
Posted by DaveS (Member # 2734) on :
Either way, officially. Knowing that will encourage you to try to be right. The first time someone told me I was Wrong I cried for a week, but I got over it in a flash. You'll adjust. You should also know that You are Welcome (that, however, is unofficial).
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on :
Greetings, Jim. I will wrongly tell you, Welcome!
Posted by jimskater (Member # 181) on :
So if this were a movie, it would be "To Wrong Fu, Thanks for Nothing, Yma Sumac"?

Greetings to you both. [Wink]
Posted by wogtheowl (Member # 6133) on :
I discovered this site looking for new OSC books. I've been lurking here for a little while, and enjoy the discussions, though I don't get much free time. Going to school in architecture, transfering soon to U of O....
I have a fairly new interest in politics, got hooked on Glen Beck and relized this was not only interesting but extremly important and I should be paying attention. I look forward to displaying my ignorance, and learning.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on :

that is totally wrong!

(that's just the welcome). When you get really comfortable, you can be hideously wrong, as I sometimes am.

what is the U of "O" 0 = ?
Posted by wogtheowl (Member # 6133) on :
(sorry) University of Oregon, and currently comming from the the frozen wasteland that is Eastern Idaho,(especially this year. dang global warming) I can't wait.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on :
well, double howdy to you, I'm in Portland.
Posted by Mark Alexander (Member # 6112) on :
Greetings all!

I'm 52, living and working in Silicon Valley in the semiconductor industry in management development. I travel often to Asia, and sometimes Europe.

B.A. in English, graduate work in Classical Rhetoric but no degree since I was offered a teaching job in a business college that offered a way out of a swamp of political correctness.

Have programmed computers, written magazine articles, both freelance and trade pubs, taught legal writing, facilitated motivational programs, delivered workshops on the spiritual power of music and the ecstatic poetry of Rumi, and done a lot of standup training in problem solving and decision making, presentation skills, employee development, and many more.

One unpublished and unpublishable novel, but posted as a blog novel. (Idiosyncratic private-eye mysteries shouldn't end in a cliff-hanger, even if it's the first in a trilogy.) My wife and I have a video and event production company, having done product launches for Apple Computer, Oracle, and all kinds of stuff for numerous other companies.

I play piano, having performed and recorded. I'm clergy in my non-Christian religion.

I'm a contributing editor for the heretical but scholarly peer-reviewed Shakespeare journal, The Oxfordian. I also authored "Shakespeare Knowledge of Law: A Journey through the History of the Arguments," cited by major law journals.

I just took my wife to Vienna over Christmas and New Year's for our 10th anniversary. Vienna State Opera (Mozart and Rossini) and dancing the Viennese Waltz at the Hofburg Palace on New Year's Eve for their annual Kaiserball. Next year, 3 weeks in Italy.

Glad to see that Ornery exists. I'll take more time reading through this forum before sticking my neck out much further. Cheers.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on :
Welcome, Mark.

Since you just got here, be aware there's not USUALLY so much discussion of masturbation. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on :
Holy hell, Mark. Do we know each other?
Posted by Mark Alexander (Member # 6112) on :
Originally posted by munga:
Holy hell, Mark. Do we know each other?

I think I would have remembered knowing someone named "munga."

Seems like I remember a Mogumba...or was that just a bad joke?

[Big Grin]
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on :
Nope. I called the MA I know, and you aren't him! I thought it was strange to come in without an alias (real name) but a fictious background - the MA I know is is energy and oil (but silicon valley could have been a pseudohobby to conceal that). It was weird.

anyway.... forget, me. welcome, you.

I'll be the first to say..... I AM wrong. [Razz]
Posted by wogtheowl (Member # 6133) on :
Portland huh munga? Guess we'll be neighbors.
Posted by Redskullvw (Member # 188) on :
Welcome to all the new people. You all seem to fit in.
Posted by DaveS (Member # 2734) on :
I'm a contributing editor for the heretical but scholarly peer-reviewed Shakespeare journal, The Oxfordian. I also authored "Shakespeare Knowledge of Law: A Journey through the History of the Arguments," cited by major law journals.
So, who did write them? This isn't the forum where you will got lots of slings and arrows for this particular topic, but we do like to agreeably disagree. My college professor solved the mystery with the even more magical argument that if he didn't write them, somebody else with the same name did.
Posted by Funean (Member # 2345) on :
The name of the journal's a bit of a giveaway....
Posted by DaveS (Member # 2734) on :
Umm, I read the journal article he cited, which talks about Bacon, who is mentioned much more often than the Earl.
Posted by Funean (Member # 2345) on :
Still squarely in the "non-Stratfordian" camp. [Smile]
Posted by DaveS (Member # 2734) on :
The best part of the whole controversy is that I am blissfully unaware of it 99.999% of the time, like right after I hit the "Add Reply" button, so...
Posted by Funean (Member # 2345) on :
It makes internet geek wars over things like Star Wars oevre seem like tiddlywinks, is what I gather. Sometimes it's even popcorn-worthy!
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on :

Yes, I love Portland. I'm actually in Troutdale.

I've lived in Utah, Ohio, CA, and MN for extended periods and visited others and I have never found a more lovely place to live!

[ July 02, 2008, 12:49 PM: Message edited by: munga ]
Posted by kenmeer livermaile (Member # 2243) on :
I SO want to live in the Portland area...

Posted by DaveS (Member # 2734) on :
Fun, fighting over the secret identity of the greatest literary genius in the history of mankind beats figuring out who the Sith are any day of the week, second only to figuring out if Jesus had wives and kids. The arguments for the various candidates are always convincing, partly because they're written by English Majors, who have a natural vested interest in being persuasive [Smile] . But in the end, discovering Shakespeare's real identity is just another literary genre. Somebody did it, and even if Bacon, Oxford and all of the other proposed people conspired together, not a word of what "he" wrote changes. Depending on how MA responds, popcorn might be in order.
Posted by Finvarra (Member # 2786) on :
Hello all.

Having limited my scattered posts to only the most critical issues over the past few years (legalizing weed and cell phone ettiquette) I have decided to end my lurking days. I can't promise I'll post that often during the summer but I hope to become something of a regular within this little political family.

(I used the word family on purpose because I feel a bit like a stalker about to tell a family "hey you don't know me but I'm practically on first name basis with your kids, having eavesdropped on you all for a couple years") With that in mind I'll say a few things about who I am.

I'm 20 years old and I attend NYU. I'm a real live walking and talking friend of Paladine. Before all the liberals cringe...our friendship is not based on similar political or religious ideologies. I am an atheist, and in general I am pretty liberal. I don't however support a liberal interpretation of the constitution. (I am pro-choice but I think roe v wade should be overturned.)

Like most people here, I loved the Card books and have reread the Ender books more times than I care to admit. Like many people here, I am regularly disappointed by his essays.

I feel like I should give some sort of an opinion so the usual ornery greeting makes sense... so with that in mind..

I am not the smartest person in the world.
Posted by OceanRunner (Member # 5605) on :
Hi, Fin... welcome.

NYU, huh? That must be a neat experience. Are you from NY originally or is college your only NYC-living experience?
Posted by Finvarra (Member # 2786) on :
I'm from North Jersey (and am currently living there during the summer) so I have always gone in often enough, but yea, living in the city is great.
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on :
Great intro. Welcome, Fin, apparently you are wrong.

Posted by Paladine (Member # 1932) on :
Fearadh na fáilte, bráthair.

And of course you're wrong.
Posted by Finvarra (Member # 2786) on :
Thank you, KE and Pal
Posted by Allen (Member # 6160) on :
Born, reared, educated, employed and retired right here in Raleigh, NC. So, I don't get around much.

Married a Long Island girl 29 years ago and we have 2 son, both grown up and moved out. I will proclaim success there.

Born and baptized a Southern Baptist, I rejected that and was baptized a member of Herbert W. Armstrong's "cult", the World Wide Church of God. That has now split widely on doctrine and practice and our local church is now operated very similarly to Methodist doctrine, though that is a weak characterization. This has given me a chance to ponder organized Religion and the effects it has on us.

Born a Democrat, I voted for Shirley Chisolm in my first primary. I voted mostly Republican in 1972 and stopped voting in 1974, until 1994, where my Republican side still controlled. The ultimate result of the 1994 vote convinced me that there is some kind of radiation inside the Beltway that affects everyone and everything that spends time there; so I am mostly libertarian in thought now.

I accept Science as having to reject "revelation" from a Divine Being in order to be far so good. I think true Science is based on established, provable, testable facts, thoroughly reviewed, and always challengable. I accept Science as a means for learning how the Creator did the Creation. I do not feel I have to keep God out of my thoughts just because IT does not belong in the lab. I feel that "God does not exist" is a statement of true religious fervor.

I like fast cars.
Posted by TheSteelenGeneral (Member # 5530) on :
Welcome to Ornery, Allen. And you're wrong. ^-^

A libertarian? Read any Heinlein?

Seeing your last statement about religion, I invite to the discussion on:;f=6;t=011809;p=12&r=nfx#000456

We'll be on opposite sides, I guess? [Smile]

[ August 02, 2008, 02:31 PM: Message edited by: TheSteelenGeneral ]
Posted by Allen (Member # 6160) on :
A Heinlein fan from the early 60's, starting with Starship and moving to Green Hills of Earth.
Posted by RickyB (Member # 1464) on :
Yo Fin, what's my hometown like these days? Any relief in rent?
Posted by Ben (Member # 1153) on :
just to knock the introductions thread over the 1000 post mark [Smile] and say hi everyone! Still pretty much same situation as last time I posted on this thread, except a bit older, etc.
Posted by PegLeg (Member # 5172) on :

Actually posting here is scary! I have been lurking for years but have been intimidated about actually participating in the discussions. I'm a 39 yr old male, under educated high school drop out, not good at spelling or grammar and I have crappy memory but lots of opinions, so if I do ever post on an actual topic I know I am wrong but you probably wont know because you wont understand what I was trying to say anyway.

I have really enjoyed reading the forums and just wanted to say hi (less enjoyment from OSC's essays but love some of his books).

Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on :
Greetings, PegLeg

I think you're wrong. Truly. Those who have spent their lives in production and careful exploration are generally more educated than the products of the white towers we call college.

welcome to the brawl.
Posted by Finvarra (Member # 2786) on :
Ricky, sorry for the delayed response, but no, absolutely no relief in rent. [Smile] Luckily for me, I'm still a college kid mooching off his parents, who happen to be nice enough and able to let me dorm in an NYU owned appartment.
Posted by kidzmom (Member # 2015) on :
Greeting from central Texas! I joined OA during the campaigning for the last pres. election, stuck around for several months, then....well, life happened [Smile] . I'm still a wife, mom of six, and homeschooler. I'm still a Christian, mostly conservative, usually vote Republican (although I admit to strong Libertarian leanings). I also dabble with writing/composing, review books (and ebooks), on 3 different sites online, and help my family with our small herd of goats (yes, goats--mostly dairy. We're down to milking once daily now, thank goodness.). Honestly, while I often enjoy the exchange here, sometimes it gets too...intense (there, that's polite!), and I find it draining time and energy I need to bespending in other ways. Still, it's fun to pop in over here, and good to know OA is still plugging along!

*waves at everyone*
Posted by Funean (Member # 2345) on :

<waves wildly>

How the heck ya been?
Posted by kidzmom (Member # 2015) on :
(((Fun)))! Busier than a one-armed paperhanger [Big Grin] . The "at home" is getting all grown up--girls are 8 & almost 11, boys are 14 & 16 now--and the teen-age (and tween-age) angst and drama fairly flow now, LOL. Hubby is mostly at home now (took early retirement), overseeing a lot of the day-to-day operations, and I've taken a job at the local country store, cashiering. We're doing homeschool co-op, 4-H, Boy Scouts, piano lessons, church youth group & choir, AWANA, both boys have part-time jobs...and I'm trying to find a little time to write.

How about you, hon? Life treating you o.k.?
Posted by Funean (Member # 2345) on :
Life could be a lot worse, that's for sure. The company I worked for for 21 years was sold last spring, and then when the buyers didn't pay for it (long story, it's in litigation, my former boss is ruined, and people suck) my severence was severed and we didn't get to start the new business we'd planned, so now I'm working for a small company that invents train things as well as the local midwives. So it's all engineers on some days, Birkenstocky midwives on the others--perfect!

Kids are 5 and 9, and it's all football, karate, wrestling, etc. I almost ended up homeschooling, in fact, because we got disgusted with the academic standards of the school where we've been sending them, and because we're in a bad district surrounded by an ocean of good ones, put our house up for sale. It was dicey for a while because our house hasn't sold, and Sept 1 was fast approaching, but the kids' dad signed a lease in the district with the elementary school we liked, and so all is well so far.

Hey, are you grandparents yet?
Posted by kidzmom (Member # 2015) on :
WOW--career schizophrenia! LOL Actually, the combo sounds kind of cool! Sorry to hear about the way you got catapulted into it, but I'm so glad you seem to have landed on your feet. You're right...too often, people DO suck. But then, there are the ones who make up for it--like us, right? [Big Grin]

Oh heck, yeah..two grandsons! Malachi (from my daughter Caitlin) will be 5 the end of this month, and Addison (from Matt, our oldest son), who's 4. It's been longer than I thought since we "talked", I guess!

Well, off to town. Have to get goat feed, people feed, and do some laundry.
Posted by Paladine (Member # 1932) on :
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on :
Welcome, and welcome back everybody.

PegLeg, what part of the country are you in?

Posted by Redskullvw (Member # 188) on :
Just to update.

I am married and have one son ho is three. I still live in Athens, Georgia. I recently suffered a major setback in my life that left me with literally nothing for the third time in forty odd years. I tend to be conservative in regard to the progression of legal forms. I am against racism and needless squandering of resources. I think that Constitutional law should be narrowly and exactly interpreted. I find that I often support political positions based upon either social justice or the current Constitutional law. This often places me at odds with other conservatives. I don't think Gays should be allowed to "marry" in the traditional Catholic Church version of the concept. But It is also the case that allowing gays to legally marry in whatever form they want is likely to have potentially no negative impact upon society's freedom. I think abortion is morally wrong. But I also think Roe was a bad decision simply due to the fact it deprived states of the right to determine the abortion issue legally for themselves.

Thing is I have a problem with PC speech, ethnocentrism, ignorance of law forms, the expectation that the government is there to provide you with a happy life.

I have had a very hard life. I have had guns pointed in my face. I have worked three jobs at a time. I put myself through school. I watched my dogs burn alive in a fire after someone attempted to kill me. But in all these times, not once has the government called me up the next day and asked how can we help you.

I believe in personal responsibility. You prepare decisions carefully and accept the consequences if they go wrong. I still have an utter fear from guns. I love rock climbing- but have a very bad fear of heights. I still love German cars, and hope to pick up a Porsche 968 next week. I now own a Jack Russel Terrier named Sweet Pea that we rescued from the pound.

I still recycle, avoid disposable crap, and try to cook real food despite the fact I currently only own four pots and pans and a couple of cookie sheets. My library consists of three books as of now. The Complete Tales of Brear Rabbit by Joel Chandler Harris; Robert E Lee by Emory Thomas, and <since it was such an evil book even a 3000'F fire couldn't incinerate it> The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich by journalist William L. Shirer.

I lost all of my hardcover first editions of Orson Scott Card as well as all the paperbacks by him as well. I lost a library of books of a value of over $8,000 wholesale and counting. Many of which are and will be impossible to replace. I miss most my atlases imported from Europe concerning Germany.

I miss my beagles most of all.

I deal with lawyers, accountants, architects, and insipid county officials who only comply thanks to my builder. My family sleeps very little. We wonder at the absolute lack of any social aids of any type that could potentially help us in the aftermath. Were it not for adequate financial planning we would be up the creek. We have little sympathy left for people still complaining about what the government did for them after Katrina and Rita. At least they got food and shelter, and guaranteed low interest FHA FEMA loans and grants to help them rebuild.

Having been here as long as I have, I have probably said it already. Given the current make-up and level of dialogue- I should say much less. I have little time for Ornery anymore. People infrequently contact me now. Even the people I like most here, often get treated badly by me unintentionally.

This is a wonderful place. There are a lot of very smart people here. It is worth your time to post and openly discuss the world around us. To a very real degree, Ornery offers far more free knowledge and education than most graduate schools in America. It is worth your time to read and also post here.

I still hate baseball. Still love Formula One racing. And think the BCS system is utterly stupid.

And apparently my current favorite word has lately been utterly.
Posted by kenmeer livermaile (Member # 2243) on :
"I now own a Jack Russel Terrier named Sweet Pea that we rescued from the pound."

I grew up with a Jack Russel rescued from the pound. A wonder to behold.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on :
Nice to meet you again, Red.
Posted by OpsanusTau (Member # 2350) on :
In reference to the end of Red's post - I have been meaning to say for a while, and kept forgetting, thank you everyone.

I took the GRE a little while ago, and the analytical writing section went very well. You guys get all the credit. It totally didn't stress me out; in fact I enjoyed it. One of the parts asks you to make an argument about an issue, and the other part asks you to destroy someone else's crappy argument about a different issue. I felt like you guys prepared me really well.

(I would ask you all to keep your fingers crossed for me on the admissions issue, but it's a long time until April and I am sure everyone's fingers have better things to do.)
Posted by DaveS (Member # 2734) on :
I think that means that you did not assume the kenmeer livermaile persona during the test. Congratulations!
Posted by kenmeer livermaile (Member # 2243) on :
I beez academical!
Posted by DaveS (Member # 2734) on :
You be academical. Sheesh. OT be analytical.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on :
what's your background, Ken? Your profile doesn't give anything.
Posted by kenmeer livermaile (Member # 2243) on :
Background? As in career, schooling, and such?

Not much. I dropped out of high school, bummed the hiways on and off for 9 years, then settled into some semblance of stability.

Raised Chicago Mormon. Dropped out of that about the same time as high school. No credentials, few notable accomplishments, if any. Extraordinarily unimpressive job history.

Essentially a lifelong misfit.

I love words and music, but words won the preference contest in my twenties, and for the past ten years or so I've gradually taken up courting them ever more intently and seriously.

Essential personality characteristic seems to be impertinence through impudence. This is based, I believe, on a severe, nearly lethal, allergy to dogma.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on :
born to write, then. dig in
Posted by kenmeer livermaile (Member # 2243) on :
'zackly. Last refuge of unrepentant misfits: writing. Kinda barebones sanctuary but ye takes what ye gits.
Posted by JoshCrow (Member # 6048) on :
I guess I'll introduce myself... I followed by buddy jasonr onto these forums, mostly to give me another chance to argue with him.

I'm a 28-year old male from Montreal, Canada where I've spent most of my life. Just married this past year, but no kids just yet (enjoying my last few years of personal freedom and 8 hours of sleep).

I hold a Ph.D. in electrical engineering and have recently won the highest academic honor in Canada for my work... although trapped in my ivory tower, my only real contribution to society is apparently to help fix all the computers in my family. Having obtained one, I now have less respect for Ph.Ds as a whole, since I know too many people brighter and harder-working than myself who haven't been recognized. I am very fortunate, and have much to be thankful for in my life, having had it very easy. I aspire to not let it handicap my thinking - I am always happy to respectfully disagree, and am recently exploring the more "right-wing" ideas I can find palatable.

My views tend to be "jaded liberal". I dislike the airy-fairy anti-war left, but not as much as I am mortified by the religious right and religion in general. I am fiscally pretty conservative. I would say that my ultimate goal in joining Ornery is to learn from people who know how to think rationally - but lately, I have spent far more time trying to combat irrational people instead, which I've learned is like "nailing Jello to a wall".
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on :
You hate baseball? I'm so sorry for you. [Frown]

Posted by Redskullvw (Member # 188) on :
Show me a more useless way to pass time, and I will loath that pastime instead.
Posted by kenmeer livermaile (Member # 2243) on :
"The internet is, after all, the perfect means for wasting time."

William Gibson, quoted by memory from his blog
Posted by badpuppet (Member # 6212) on :
I'm from East Tennessee, birthday number 45 this Sunday, and live about 30 miles from the place I was born. I did a stint in the Navy during the Reagan years. Then, once a civilian, spent five years and lots of money to fail to earn a music degree in composition from the University of Tennessee, Knoxville. I then spent about ten years teaching private music lessons.

I have a service-connected disability, but the VA thought I was deceased until 2002. Once I convinced them I was alive, they paid to get me through a 2 year school and collect a whole bunch of Admin Certificates. I've been in IT four years, been developing web-based database applications for the past year.

I still play music, and have recently began an eccentric little blog which has kept me happily occupied the past few weeks.

My wife and I have been married twenty one years. Both of us have many political opinions which all turn out to be wrong.

Election-wise, it looks like Obama for me, but Nader may yet get my vote, and there is a sliver of a chance I may write in Ron Paul.

If I had my druthers, I'd be dictator, make everyone learn to play a musical instrument, put on a funny hat and march in a weekly parade in my honor.

Either that, or I'd get the heck out of the middle east (leaving "intelligence" in place) and start building a national public transportation system, universalize health care and regulate the crap out of pharmaceutical companies, oh and raise everyone's taxes by 5 to 7%.

See, those five years in music school weren't all wasted. [Smile]
Posted by kenmeer livermaile (Member # 2243) on :
"East Tennessee"

Heaven! I would gladly live near Marysville.

And I love the gentler Tennessee drawl.
Posted by kenmeer livermaile (Member # 2243) on :
"If I had my druthers, I'd be dictator, make everyone learn to play a musical instrument, put on a funny hat and march in a weekly parade in my honor."

well sure. Gladly. But we need a titular name first. "God" is already taken, BTW.
Posted by badpuppet (Member # 6212) on :
I grew up in Maryville. Great town. I liked it better when there weren't so many people, but it's still my favorite place to visit, mostly because my dad still lives there.
Posted by kenmeer livermaile (Member # 2243) on :
I have fond memories of swimming at The Y, slipping off the cliff just before I reached the high-dive point, squirming midair to attain a clean dive (so I didn't break my back), slicing the water like an Olympic diver, and holding from so I reached the bottom.

There lies the current that goes through that huge granite bowl and empties in those downstream rapids.

Terrified, I popped over the rim and made my way down and through.

Came out alive, exhilarated, and decided to do it again. Third time I gashed myself badly and realized how insane it was.

But what a ride...
Posted by badpuppet (Member # 6212) on :
I've jumped off the cliff at the Y a few times, but never learned to dive, and certainly never made the discovery you so insanely exploited and enjoyed.

My hat's off to you. I had to work up the courage just to make the jump.
Posted by kenmeer livermaile (Member # 2243) on :
I was 18 and a lot wilder than I realized. Only in recent years I realized I was and am not a wuss.

I think it was partly because nothing was scarier than that sudden *whummm* sound and the fluid steel of that current.

When it shoved me up into sun and air again, dodging a few rocks seemed just dandy compared to that dark translucent pressure.
Posted by kenmeer livermaile (Member # 2243) on :
Reintroducing Kenmeer of Livermaile:

Black Sheep

Except I rub her back, and my little sister is honorary by way of in-lawism, and is a banker herself.
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on :
One of the biggest best tournaments of the year (softball) is in Maryville. I love that place. It is so beautiful. We won our first major open tourney there. Hundreds of people come out to watch the tourney and the fields are in a natural bowl so you have hills/bleachers on all sides.

We also have a cliff like that in New Braunsfels were everybody goes rafting. I was scared to death and only did it once to prove I could. We had just had Little John and Stacy was in a ten man raft in the lagoon. She was pissed. The rest of the trip was; "You're a grown man and a father now you can't be doing things like that you have to think of our son!" Of course she was right. Five people had to be ambulanced out of there jumping off that cliff that year and two broke their backs. It's fenced off now so you can't even get to it. Not that I would.


[ October 22, 2008, 03:49 PM: Message edited by: KnightEnder ]
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on :

I could tell you about the sun on your face, the smell of the new mowed grass, the camaraderie of nine guys pulling for each other and a common cause, the crack of a bat, exercise, the feeling of being alive, being able to slap another guy on the ass and nobody thinking nothing of it [Smile] , sportsmanship, competition, and respect, a place where racism or money doesn't exist, and a thousand other nuances that you wouldn't get. I played baseball from the time I was five until 35 and I don't feel one minute of it was wasted. An American dad playing catch with his son or daughter, it just doesn't get any better than that. I feel sorry for you, buddy. You should watch Field of Dreams and Bull Durham back to back and try to relax.

I'm not being condescending when I say I feel sorry for you; I'm sure there are plenty of things that you appreciate at a level I can't comprehend. I just wish you could get the enjoyment and fulfillment that I experience playing ball. Baseball is my church, my religion. And it's definitely not a waste of time.

Posted by Jesse (Member # 1860) on :
I like playing softball (not that I'm any good) and I like going to baseball games.

I can't stand baseball on TV, and I can't even begin to understand how anyone could listen to a game on radio.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on :
I played baseball for a few years..maybe from age 8 or 9 until 13 or 14.

It was hugely miserable for me. My dad's thing at the time was all of his boys played sports whether they wanted to or not. Somehow I ended up playing baseball but not football or basketball from the 6th through 8th grades.

I got one home run, and made a couple of important plays, in three years...that's how exciting it was. When i wasn't sitting the bench, I played right field most of the time. There was one time my dad was subbing for the regular coach and put me in to pitch against my will - I wasn't ready. I couldn't pitch. I got jeered by my own team the whole time and gave up several runs in an inning. I still can't quite forgive my dad for that. (I mean, how he thought it was good for either the team or for my own development is a mystery to me.)

Later he tried putting me in tackle football in 9th grade in the middle of the season. I didn't know what was going on and lined up with the line players...and I was pretty damn skinny. Didn't know how to switch and try receiving or defense backer, which I might have been good at since I was pretty fast. That didn't go well either. Would've been a different story if I had gotten involved at the right point and on the right part of the team, oh well.

I DID find out I loved basketball in 9th grade and played, and got decent, over the next several years. I played with neighborhood guys for a few years after high school too. It was fun, but it's pretty embarrassing to remember how mad I got sometimes when games weren't going my way. I wish I'd been in b-ball all along instead of baseball, the additional early development might have gotten me a spot on the high school team and that team won the state championship my junior year - would've been nice to be on the court instead of just in the pep band.

Anyway, my bad memories of baseball mean I will never get much enjoyment out of the sport. I like to play catch with my kids but I can't see myself coaching their little league teams when they get old enough. I'd be terrified of making my kids hate me.

So anyway, KE, what i wanted to ask is whether you think your fondness for baseball/softball are resulting from your success in the sport. Or vice versa.

ETA: the camaraderie, sportsmanship, and respect were largely missing from my experience with baseball. The other kids were jerks to those of us they considered second string material. Stupid for little league where everybody paid the same fees to participate.

[ October 22, 2008, 06:42 PM: Message edited by: scifibum ]
Posted by kenmeer livermaile (Member # 2243) on :
scifibum: a sensitive father would've let it be at buying you a Sports Bra Barbie and a copy of Tom Swift, Jr. and his Metatomic Autopitcher.

I HATED EVERY exposure to organized sports I encountered, but thoroughly enjoyed the sandlot variety.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on :
Most of my dad's problem was he convinced himself that he wished his parents had made him stick to some things he didn't stick to as a kid. He wasn't going to make that mistake. [Roll Eyes] Funny part of that story is he never considered taking those things back up as an adult...water under the bridge is one thing, but lamenting all that water still rushing by is another.
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on :
Impossible to say. You may be right. I never saw it from the other side. I see your point.

Posted by T:man (Member # 6309) on :
I am T, please refer to me as T.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on :
we will somehow try to remember

welcome in (I think?)
Posted by Everard (Member # 104) on :
KE, Scifi-
I played "organized" baseball from age 6-16. Never tried out for my high school team, because
a) The coach was known for playing favorites. He liked "jocks," and hated "nerds," even if the nerd was a demonstrably better player then the jock. Ask linuxfreakus about his joys watching from the bench.
b) I knew I was on the **** list of the coach, after I showed him up in front of a lot of the kids at his summer camp (bringing in TEd William's book on hitting to counter something the coach says is FUN, but not with a guy who carries a grudge).

I was never GREAT. I had a couple successful seasons pitching at various levels, and played some summer ball and did ok on the traveling teams I played with, never hitting much, but getting on base, scoring runs, and pitching occassionally.

But baseball is still my biggest passion. It can be enjoyed on so many different levels. Its both simple, and remarkably complex. Unlike most team sports, its a series of one on one battles, with very little actual team play... except that the team play demands everyone know exactly what to do in relation to their teammates in hundreds of situations. Its a numbers game, and a game of reflexes and quickness and power. Baseball is both the easiest game to play, and the hardest. All it requires is swinging a bat, and throwing a ball... but to do these WELL, these are the hardest tasks in sport. Baseball is both a game of raw data, facts, and numbers, and the same time is a game of imagination. Its a game that doesn't require any remarkable physical attributes or abilities, unlike football where most players are huge, basketball where they tower over us, or hockey on ice skates. Its the great leveler... dustin pedroia, who MIGHT be 5'9 and MIGHT be 170 lbs, but is probably 5'5 and 150, had a near MVP campaign. Ryan howard is a giant of a man, and wouldn't look out of place on a football field... and he had a near MVP campaign. Smarts counts for a lot in baseball, and at the same time its all about physical ability. You can be curt schilling or jason varitek, who study hours each day, and chart every pitch thrown in every game, or you can be nomar garciappara and rely almost entirely on ritual and reflexes. There are dozens of seeming contradictions within baseball.

Most importantly, though, baseball is about the crack of the bat, the twhack of the leather, and the fantasy's they inspire. Baseball is a field of dreams.
Posted by PegLeg (Member # 5172) on :
Originally posted by KnightEnder:
Welcome, and welcome back everybody.

PegLeg, what part of the country are you in?


Sorry I missed this!

Posted by T:man (Member # 6309) on :
Hi I'm T:man I'm a high school honor student, not tellin' no one my age. [Razz]

I'm livin' in a suburb of Chicago.

I will hopefully go to college (some day)

I like picking fights.
Posted by DaveS (Member # 2734) on :
If you want to pick fights here, your strength better be with your ability to make good arguments and you better have good facts on your side. Otherwise, you might not be able to buy a fight.

First thing you have to do is get used to the mantra here, "You're Wrong!" We say that to everybody when they join so that they know that if they want to talk to us, tell us like it is, wise us up, then it comes right back at ya. We call ourselves "Ornery" folks, but I've heard that the word originally meant "ordinary" around here. We are that, too.

Lastly, welcome! It's great that you're an honor student. You may learn some things here, and you may teach us some things, too. That's a great indicator that you will fit in, so I (that is, we) hope you like it here!
Posted by hobsen (Member # 2923) on :
T:man has some good posts. My experience suggests he is fifteen, but he should keep his secret... Welcome to Ornery.
Posted by T:man (Member # 6309) on :
Haha, thanks hobsen that makes me feel smart...

Dave: I pick my fights carefully, you won't even know that it was me who had started it. [Wink]
Posted by GrokThis (Member # 6344) on :

I am a male and come from european forebears. I have lived in a small town in Connecticut, USA for all my life.

I have a background in the electrical trade, a degree in Information Technology from Rochester Institute of Technology and now work for one of the ivy league universities doing classroom support and A/V for events.

I defy categorization in general but especially in politics, religion, and philosophy.

I love people, am a optimist with a cynical sense of humor and believe that beyond physical sustenance humans thrive on irony more than anything else.

I enjoy any kind of art that ties history, mythology, and psychology together with anecdote.

I tend to speak too generally in vacuous ideas. Don't let me get away with it.
Posted by Funean (Member # 2345) on :
Oh, you should be *quite* comfortable here, Grok.

You're still wrong, of course. [Big Grin]
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on :
Hi GrokThis,

If you've noticed the board, it has suffered the loss of some stalwarts who apparently are committing Ornery Suicide after the election.... it seems they are unable to carry on in the exchange of ideas in a world that does not have "their" man on top as a safety-valve, which is kinda like saying they'll talk about construction permits on ground *they* own. I would liken today's new reality to talking about permits on land we *all* own, but they don't feel secure enough to trade ideas anymore.

Truth to tell, I'm going to miss them. I hope their Ornery suicide is the only one.

But lucky for you, we've got some openings for techno-philosophy wonks. I'm in and out but my baliwick is finance/renewable energy/advanced technologies. We might overlap interests sometimes.
Posted by rich (Member # 6346) on :
I usually just start posting away, but this board seems a little...different. So I extend some courtesy (very little--I'm actually quite rude) in introducing myself.

My name is Rich, but I have low self-esteem so I just go with little 'r' Rich. That and it's just a little quicker to type.

I'm a violent pacifist, 41 years old, just recently separated so if any of you want to pretend you're someone you're not--like Scarlet Johansson or Helen Mirren--go ahead. I'm a gullible guy. Just don't ask for my checking account number 'cause I already gave that out to the Prince from Nigeria who's going to be depositing funds into my account. He said he needed the help.

I came to the OSC boards as a result of my getting into his boot camp thingie. I'm about 180 degrees from OSC's views/opinions, and, generally speaking, a bit of a contrarian anyway. I was a little surprised at the variety of opinions on this site so...being recently separated, laid off, and not having the kids this week, I thought: What the hell?

So here I am. Signed, sealed, delivered, I'm yours. Well, not YOU, but the other one. In the corner.

Posted by hobsen (Member # 2923) on :
Nice to have you here, rich. Since low self-esteem is reported to be common among the recently separated, let me hope that your life improves and your self-esteem with it.

OSC has been nice enough to support two forums largely populated by people who disagree with him, especially during this election. He has said that he regards the forums as an extension of his living room, and that unruly guests will be ejected. Otherwise difference of opinion is encouraged. He is said to be a very nice guy in person, as you probably know; and everyone seems to be praising his latest column entitled This Very Good Election Year.

Welcome to Ornery. You are wrong!

That is the traditional greeting, reminding us that we are all wrong more than we should like.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on :
welcome, rich. I tried getting into the boot camp thingie one year and was put on the waiting list in case one of the actual recruits dropped out. I'll try again some day. Maybe next year. How'd you like it?
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on :
Welcome rich,

Unlike hobson, I think OSC has recently been a force for oppression, as he supplies apologetics for that legislation which results in unequal protection under the law. He is using his prodigious skills in writing to assist in that crime, and has "hosted" the blogs in an effort to also help his ideas go viral. I wouldn't pin such a trend as a crime on a body if OSC hadn't multiple times displayed complete understanding of the concepts he is violating.

But of course, I could be wrong.

In any case, I think a blog-host is not half the trouble that moderating is, and our moderators seem to be fairly good chaps.
Posted by rich (Member # 6346) on :
Thanks guys.

The boot camp was good. Overall it was a good experience though for every three spot-on comments OSC made there was one off the wall comment made. Still pretty good ratio, I guess. I usually run about 3 to 1 the other way.

My experience with OSC is he's a nice guy, one that I learned some stuff about writing from, but my sentiments about OSC on anything other than writing tend to run more towards munga's.
Posted by SirManiac (Member # 6092) on :
Hello, my screen name is SirManiac. I have used this screen name for 12 years so it's kind of grown on me, even if it can be interpreted negatively.

The 'Sir' is primarily because I have always had a strong sense of chivalry. 'Maniac' because of the manic interest I take in all things Computer.

I have visited this site from time to time, being both a fan of OSC, and a bit 'ornery' in my political views. Thought I'd get registered so I could participate in the conversations.

I am a conservative, and generally won't argue unless I have something to back my argument.

Although I am not quick to change my opinions or points of view, I do look forward to being proven wrong, where I am actually wrong.

I don't change my opinion because someone else can out-argue me, I actually expect facts and evidence. It's clear enough there are some arguments that we lack the means to prove or disprove. For those arguments, anything more then saying our opinion is a waste of time and good-will.

I hope that my arguments will lend to the conversations, bit I can't give any guarantees. [Smile]
Posted by hobsen (Member # 2923) on :
SirManiac, welcome to Ornery. You are wrong.

Frankly, I think this forum is short of conservatives. And now that the right wing is out of power, it will probably be doing the better thinking, while the left is engaged in governing. So we need to hear about that.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on :
Welcome SirManiac.

I was raised conservative and have been bloodied into becoming a liberal.

Does that... mean..... I was wrong.... or am wrong? How do I manage to be "right" the whole time, I wonder?
Posted by SirManiac (Member # 6092) on :
Originally posted by munga:
Welcome SirManiac.

I was raised conservative and have been bloodied into becoming a liberal.

Does that... mean..... I was wrong.... or am wrong? How do I manage to be "right" the whole time, I wonder?

I think that I can respect any rational, thinking person as having a right(as in freedom), to develop their own opinion of what is right(as in correct) through reasonable means. And that, because I am probably at least partially wrong on 90%(or probably more) of what I think and say, and most people are similarly handicapped(to an unpredictable variation of degree, though never 0% wrong), I choose to accept that my opinion of what is right will be different from what anyone else's opinion of what is right. And that the differences can come in handy, the moment I decide I was wrong about my opinion(or even partially wrong).

So I respect that you are liberal, and expect the same respect, for the same reason I respect you.
Posted by SirManiac (Member # 6092) on :

I just re-read you post, and realized I completely mis-understood. I have heard there is the "right" each of us sees, and some absolute "right"(if you will, God's right).

I mean our individual version of right. So you were right both when you were raised, and now, if you think from that point of view. I respect people that do what they believe, even if it doesn't fit in my "right." And I can't think of a way to justly fault someone when they are doing what they believe.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on :

On misreading, no problem. I was being a little silly just for fun.

That said, you have hit on an interesting idea for me. You say that you do not fault those who do wrong, believing that they were right. I think God is of the same mindset. That's why He says that where much is given, much is expected. The corollary to that is that where nothing is given, nothing (in terms of obedience) is expected. I think that's an important concept that I would like Christians to .. uh.. grow up about. GOD isn't going to judge anyone who doesn't believe, so why are the Christians? They might say, "well you, sinners, should have repented when we told you about God" and I can only say, with such representation God has all the more reason to acquit the unbeliever. I think there is nothing quite like complete freedom on this earth, and kind and patient invitation to experiment upon God's words, to bring a person to a state of belief. Next, I believe that God himself loves every child and will provide more opportunities even after death, to accept the savior. Fact is.... I think God really really loves us.

[ November 09, 2008, 12:08 AM: Message edited by: munga ]
Posted by Pinochio (Member # 6367) on :
Hello all. I'm new here. An OSC fan and a fiscal conservative. I heard Rush mention OSC a few weeks ago and I couldnt figure out if it was the author. I didnt know he wrote for the newspapers. Searched around for a bit and ended up here.

My background is in viticulture and oenology and I look forward to some discussions. Does OSC ever post here?
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on :
Not to our knowledge.

Welcome Pinochio. As a fiscal progressive, let me be the first to tell you that you are WRONG!

(standard ornery greeting)
Posted by hobsen (Member # 2923) on :
OSC probably has read or posted here, and more commonly on his other forum at But he usually has too much to do to pay attention to the two forums he very kindly maintains. He has said they are extensions of his living room, and guests are welcome so long as they remain civil. Our worthy moderators enforce the latter as needed, with personal attacks often involving speculation about the motives of other participants being the most common offense. Several members got banned until the election was over, as tempers were running high for a while.

Anyway, welcome to Ornery, Pinochio. May your nose grow ever longer. And YOU ARE WRONG!!! That is the traditional greeting given to all new members, as we all make mistakes now and then.
Posted by Pinochio (Member # 6367) on :
Fair enough. I'm always happy to find people who are capable of telling me that I'm wrong - as long as their opinion doesn't exceed their knowledge base.
Posted by RickyB (Member # 1464) on :
Welcome Pinochio. I happen to live in one of Israel's wine-making regions, with two commercially successful, very decent wineries in the next town over (none of the really fine boutique wines around here. My favorite Israeli boutique wine is Chateau Golan, where my mother-in-law works and comps us occasionally. It's the wine I save for those who stay the latest at my cookouts. Velvet in liquid form.

A friend from a former job is married to a vintner at Binyamina Winery (one of the two near me), which all of us think is way cool. [Smile]
Posted by Sefer (Member # 6366) on :
I've been lurking here off and on for a number of years; this is the place I've come when I've wanted to see some intelligent discussion on political issues, and I've generally come away more informed than I started. Thanks to everyone who's been providing my that service for free all these years [Smile]
I've generally been content with not posting myself, but something from a thread caught my eye. By the time the... lengthy... registration process (don't worry, OrneryMod, I forgive you) the thread moved on, but I thought I should introduce myself in case I decide to become more involved.

I'm from California and have lived in various parts of Southern California my whole life. I'm a software developer and data analyst and use both talents working at a company I own a small piece of.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on :

The exact same thing happened to me. I registered full of fight and righteousness, but just got to cool my heels for a few days.

But I bounced back. [Big Grin] ]

I can't see any point upon which I can pronounce you properly WRONG, per the Ornery Greeting, without disputing your identity (like I know better, duh) and so.... let me just extend the welcome!
Posted by Sefer (Member # 6366) on :
Oh, I'm sure I'm wrong about something. You can extend a proper Ornery welcome without offending [Smile]
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on :

YER WRONG, BABY!!!!!!!!!
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on :
(*now experiencing the blessings of being welcoming)

[ November 21, 2008, 02:12 PM: Message edited by: munga ]
Posted by Gina (Member # 6372) on :
Hello all. I am a new user, recently linked over from Hatrack River after succumbing this year to a severe addiction to OSC's books.

I am 36, a political conservative, originally from "bitter clinger" country but now living in Silicon Valley (isn't online romance grand). We are Orthodox Christians.

I appreciate the premise of the "ordinary American," because growing up on a dairy farm in a pretty rugged area of Pennsylvania, I took a lot of things for granted which I later had to re-learn in terms of an urban, pluralistic world. I learned that what we called walking on the hill behind the house, the rest of the world calls "hiking." I learned that some people even buy machines, or buy access to such machines, in order to approximate real work. That's called "working out." And similarly in the realm of discourse, I learned that the plain common sense that I took for granted had to be dissected, analyzed, repackaged and defended in order to be digestible to others. Sometimes what remains even resembles the source whence it came. Hopefully I can achieve that in discussion here.
Posted by hobsen (Member # 2923) on :
You are wrong, Gina, as noted in the two posts above. Otherwise another conservative will be more than welcome. And you will not be the only Orthodox member, as I am sure there is at least one other.

Having once bicycled from Boston to Pittsburgh and back, I have vivid memories of those Pennsylvania hills. Whenever I topped a ridge between Pittsburgh and Philadelphia, I would see another a little way ahead; and they seemed to go on forever. It was like riding across a washboard. And speaking of washboards, of which you may not have heard, I consider washing machines a recent invention. But I hope you did not have to hand milk all those cows.
Posted by RickyB (Member # 1464) on :
Viking Longship is Orthodox Christian, and practicing it in style in Russia [Smile] (He's American, married a Russian woman).
Posted by cb (Member # 6179) on :
My name is CB. I'm afraid I've been remiss in my responsibility to courtesy as I’ve already made my presence known on different threads before posting here. I'm afraid I got so eager to voice my opinions that I bypassed the customary introductions and welcome. I apologize right up front for being rude and, obviously, "WRONG".

As for introductions, I hail from the right (oh sorry, east) side of Washington State where I have felt disenfranchised as a voter for years since only 7 counties of the 39 in the state decide all our politics. I love WA and my valley, it is beautiful. I just wish we easters could get our voices heard.

As I have said in threads I’ve posted, I am an ultra conservative and came to that (a la munga) by first being bloodied as a liberal. I wasted the eight years of Regan’s historic presidency hating him…and then I became a middle-class working mom. I began to experience the sad state of our schools, I felt the painful burden of high property taxes and assundry other taxes.

I happened onto talk radio and found a liberal talk show from California called (if I’m remembering correctly) the Tom Liknes Show. The more I listened to his liberal POV's the more I realized I didn’t share them. Then I found Rush and, though I disagreed with much of what he said, it was a breath of fresh air compared to the nasty, belittling mouth of Tom Liknes.

The more I lived the life of the over-burdened middle class and the more I worked directly with the social service systems of our country (as a Foster Mom and as a contracted service provider), I found myself agreeing more and more with the ideas of Limbaugh and Schlessinger. It took several years (unfortunately not soon enough to keep me from voting for Clinton the first time around), but I finally saw the errors of my ways!(I know, I know...I'M WRONG!!).

I love OSC, have read anything and everything he has written and love his Ornery American posts. I used to disagree with him more often then agree, but he seems to be morphing away from liberalism as it is embodied today just as I did, so I find I agree with him more now.

I was amazed, when I first came on this forum, how virulently anti-OSC some of the posts were. It shocked me at first, and seemed a bit excessive for people who were enjoying his hospitality, but once again I do recognize that I was and probably will be “WRONG”. [Razz]

I am a service provider for Deaf/Deaf-blind clients of The Division of Developmental Disabilities (DSHS) and love, love, love ASL. Any other signers out there?? [Smile]

I am a political wonk and read anything and everything to do with politics.

And I am pleased as punch to be a member of Ornery as there ain't too many people more ornery than me. [Big Grin]
Posted by hobsen (Member # 2923) on :
Glad to have you here, CB. Your work sounds good for everybody.

You just took me back about 50 years to when my former roommate got a new roommate named Bill. From Pullman, WA, and we heard a lot about that area for a couple of years. Acres and acres of wheat. And totally unlike the eastern edge of the state.
Posted by cb (Member # 6179) on :
Hi hobsen! Yes, Washington is very diverse. The central part of Washington is semi-desert, we have mountains, ocean, and rain-forests. There isn't much offered across the nation that we don't have right here. I love this state!! Pullman is beautiful in its own way as well.
Posted by Ben (Member # 1153) on :
Hi CB! Another signer here [Smile] Welcome! Though given the lack of graphics and video onsite, not likely to come up much. But feel free to tell me my ASL (as well as other opinions) is wrong! (1 from chin out, Y on chin, 1 point at you), translated for the other guys as REALLY WRONG YOU! or in English as "You're wrong" [Smile] Now you've got your official greeting on the introduction thread, in ASL!
Posted by cb (Member # 6179) on :
Why, thankya much for the welcome Ben!! Someday they will come up with a ways to write ASL that is not completely counterproductive (takes to long to read to make it worthwhile). I've been a wanna-be deafy for 23 years now. How did you come to ASL? Where do you hail from?
Posted by Ben (Member # 1153) on :
Sorry, things are hectic right now or I'd've responded sooner. I currently live in southern Utah, though I grew up in the Salt Lake City area, spent some time out east, a year in Houston, and 8 years in the LA area when I went to USC. Hope that doesn't blow my cover... [Wink]

And I grew up signing, transitioning from signed english to ASL since of course my parents had some awkward adjustments and learning experiences, to figure out what was best for Deaf kids, and now also Deaf-in-laws. Luckily, they're very supportive and helped us keep in touch with other Deaf friends and activities, etc. when growing up so we got the ASL exposure and picked up on that well, not just what the school teaches. Not exactly bi-bi, but we came close with our overall experiences. The whole family signs, though the parents, plus oldest and youngest siblings tend to be englishy and out of practice now. Our family's been signing for about 28 years. No deafies in our second generation yet so far, but the kids and some hearing in-laws are picking up signs anyway. [Smile]
Posted by Kelly G Willis (Member # 6383) on :
Hello all. I thought that I'd post this to make sure things are working. Anyway, I'm rather new to this forum but I've been reading Mr. Card's essays from the very beginning on this site. Probably like most participants, I'll agree with some of what he writes and disagree with other issues, but then that's the point of argument from where I stand. I don't know if I'll be heavily involved in conversations here, but I'll keep an eye out for what interests me.

All the best.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on :
Howdy Kelly.

It's not that we were ignoring you, but you see you did not provide good fodder for the Ornery Greeting, "You Are Wrong." I suppose we were all sitting here wondering who would manage to make that analysis without the fodder.

So, let me make an attempt:

Dear Kelly, welcome to Ornery. Due to lack of a good-fodder introduction, allow me to call it "wrong".

Now you can feel a warmfuzzy sense of belonging!
Posted by elk (Member # 6369) on :
Can't we call him/her wrong for failing to recognize Card as deity? [Smile]
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on :
WRONG, elk, OSC is a devil, making apologetics for the Plan of Compulsion.

He's got the magic underwear to prove it!

[ December 11, 2008, 08:07 PM: Message edited by: munga ]
Posted by kenmeer livermaile (Member # 2243) on :
Magic Underwear. Is this what pomo 21st century superheroes are reduced to?

I hear Russell Crowe won't be wearing tights in his Robin Hood movie either.

Dark times befall us.

[ December 11, 2008, 09:45 PM: Message edited by: kenmeer livermaile ]
Posted by elk (Member # 6369) on :
Well, its not exactly an accusatory 'your WRONG', but it is warm and fuzzy welcome: "Our host is the devil, Robin Hood no longer wears tights, and the planet Pluto is no longer a valid province of Canada."
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on :
I think it is a herald, like "You're Wrong" said in the same tones as, "You're HERE! Yippee!"
Posted by kenmeer livermaile (Member # 2243) on :
Welcome to a world where everything and everyone is wrong, elk.
Posted by LittleOne (Member # 6215) on :
Hi, I'm LittleOne, i've been here before, but kind-of lost touch with the fourm; but I am here now.
Posted by scouser1 (Member # 3455) on :
Welcome [Smile]
Posted by scouser1 (Member # 3455) on :
Again [Smile]
Posted by HawkeyeFM521 (Member # 6388) on :
Hello folks. I'm new to this forum but have been reading the essays here for a few months now and just realized there was a forum! LOL

A little about me, I'm 34, married with 3 kids and, am in the U.S. Navy. I consider myself politically independent (aka non-partisan) with conservative leanings. I'm fairly stubborn about my beliefs and always try to only pesent the facts but, sometimes my opinion gets in the way. I'm a native Texan (which probably accounts for my stubborness) married to a desert rat, my wife is from Arizona.

And just FYI, I ablotuly enjoy reading anything written by OSC. He is in the top 3 of my favorite writers.
Posted by hobsen (Member # 2923) on :
OSC has at least two forums, this and the one at also. Anything written by him covers a lot of territory: poetry, plays, science fiction, historical fiction, book and movie reviews, newspaper columns and essays. He is amazingly prolific, and at least some of what he writes is very good.

Anyway, welcome to Ornery. You are wrong! That is the traditional greeting, which all of us justify all too frequently.
Posted by Isuldi (Member # 6395) on :
Hello, all. I suppose I get the dubious honor of being your first new member of the new year.

A little intro- I'm a high school student in the middle of a very conservative county in a liberal bastion of a state. Please forgive me if I swing to wildly from one end of the spectrum to the other- I can honestly say it's my upbringing. You'll probably find me a bit of an easy debate- I joke that I have the gift of seeing both sides of the argument and the curse of being swayed easily by both.

In any case, I'll probably be seeing many of you around. Let the games begin.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on :
Greetings, Isuldi. For some reason, your nom de plume is reminding me of Herbert's Dune and I can't remember why.

So you can see the sides, huh? And you are persuadable on both sides? Hm. This suggests that you are less dedicated to dogma, principles, or "team-politics" and more interested in the dynamics of each situation. Sickens me to say it, but have you ever considered that this might mean that you are ideally emotionally equipped to be a lawyer? Now, I hate lawyers but only for their compensation practices, and in general I think people who can "untangle the spaghetti" are very valuable.

But even though you made a very nice entry to Ornery, you are still wrong. You must admit this as surely as Schrodinger's cat is dead sometime or another (physics joke) you will be, eventually, wrong.

Welcome to Ornery!
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on :
Welcome to all the new people.

Munga, depending on what state he is in and how much he reads on his own (he said he was in high school) he probably has no idea what Schrodinger's cat is. Unfortunately. [Frown]


Welcome. You are wrong. Most of the people here disagree with Mr. Card's essay's. Or at least his 'style' of arguing them. But most of us do love his professional fiction work. (As opposed to the fiction he writes in the guise of his opinion. [Smile] )

Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on :
oh, I knew that KE. But we are, after all, on the interweb. I thought he'd have fun googling it and imagining the situation of hypothetical ever-living-and-dead as a metaphor for ever-wrongness-and-rightness in the same dynamic.
Posted by EDemoMan (Member # 6387) on :
Sorry, almost missed this.

I'm 24, MS in EE and part-time PhD candidate, and live in what is commonly acknowledged to be a very liberal state. I work full time and, ironically enough, I *am* a rocket scientist. Because of this background I'm vehemently opposed to the ridiculous quantity of fake "science" governing many facets of our lives today.

I'm also a semi-pro football (soccer) referee with PDL and the W-League, as well as for amateur leagues within my state. This has shown me that most people will do what you allow them to, regardless of what they believe to be "right."

I'm fairly libertarian. I think victimless crimes (drugs, prostitution...) should have very little to no penalty and real crimes (rape, murder, theft...) should have much more serious consequences. I support a much more widely applied death penalty in cases where guilt is not in question. I support corporal punishment for a wide variety of less serious crimes.

Other than this and basic services, I think government should stay out of my life. I also think people have too loose an interpretation of "basic" services; I think people should take care of themselves.

I own guns and believe in my right to own guns, but also agree that any dangerous tool should be publicly known (we license people to drive, too).