This is topic Medal of Freedom Bestowals in forum General Comments at The Ornery American Forum.


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Posted by FiredrakeRAGE (Member # 1224) on :
 
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/12/15/MNGUMAC6LH1.DTL
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Synopsis: Bush gave the Medal of Freedom, the nation's highest civilian medal to Gen. Franks, P. Bremer, and G. Tenet.
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While I am not anti-Bush for the most part, I believe he made a mistake in awarding this medal to these particular people. While it is true that George Tenent, Paul Bremer, and Tommy Franks all did their job with regard to Iraq, I do not believe that they did anything above and beyond the call of duty. I am not going to suggest that the troops are more deserving of such medals, as an MSNBC pundit did - the military has their own medals. I do, however, believe that there are a great many civilians in Iraq that do go above and beyond the call of duty - putting themselves in harms way to ensure that Iraq is rebuilt. While they are being paid for it, a great many of these engineers, architects, doctors, etc. are in harms way every day - not only for the money, but for the cause.

If recognition is to be awarded, it should be awarded for heroism, valor and self-sacrifice. To award the "nation's highest civilian honor" for mere administrative make-work seems to denigrate the award, and diminish the true unrecognized sacrifices of others in Iraq.

--Firedrake
 
Posted by RickyB (Member # 1464) on :
 
I was wondering if anyone else noticed this. Bush has a way of not only not firing people who screw up, but defiantly singling them out for praise. If, as the white house insists, Bremer is to blame for the deicision to dismantle the Iraqi army, then yeah, mistakes happen, but they're still mistakes and not huge achievements. Tenet's "slam dunk" assurance re: WMD was a HUGE screw-up, as was his inability to get anyone to actually do something about his "hair on fire" in the summer of 2001. You simply don't deserve prizes for that kind of performance. I seriously believe all three are being rewarded for nothing other than personal loyalty to the POTUS, and that's very focked up.

Franks I have no problem with though, job wise. Bush wants to give him the medal, fine.
 
Posted by Godot (Member # 2099) on :
 
The Medal of Freedom website states that:

"Recipients of the medal are those who have made outstanding contributions to the security or national interest of the United States or to world peace, or those who have made a significant public or private accomplishment."

I don't see how these men are deserving.

Almost seems that Bush is priming the pump for some-one/entity to award him something later on. The rationale being, if men under him are deserving of this type of award Bush MUST be worthy of X.
 
Posted by David Ricardo (Member # 1678) on :
 
If I were Paul "Disband the Iraqi Army" Bremer or George "Slam Dunk" Tenet, I would be far too embarassed to even accept the Medal of Freedom.

Of course, however, that assumes that either of them have a sense of shame for their miserable failures in defending America's national security.
 
Posted by Haggis (Member # 2114) on :
 
Come on people. We all know that President Bush does not make mistakes. [Roll Eyes]
 
Posted by RickyB (Member # 1464) on :
 
David, while Bremer made quite a few mistakes, I don't believe him to be the one actually responsible for disbanding the Iraqi army. It simply defies all credulity that Rumsfled or Cheney, who have kept such a tight rein on decision making in this war, would leave such a momentous decision to someone else.

However, as long as he's willing to be scapegoated for this, then he should behave as though it were his fault.
 
Posted by Daruma28 (Member # 1388) on :
 
At least he didn't give one to Norman Mineta - by far the worst Bush Admin Memeber....
 
Posted by FIJC (Member # 1092) on :
 
quote:
"At least he didn't give one to Norman Mineta - by far the worst Bush Admin Memeber...."
Sez Ann Coulter, but I wouldn't take her word too seriously.
 
Posted by RickyB (Member # 1464) on :
 
Hmmmm. Why doesn't alien psycho girl like Mineta? I don't know much about him or his job performance.
 
Posted by Sancselfieme (Member # 1373) on :
 
It's because he's the token democrat Bush has in his cabinet for PR purposes.
 
Posted by RickyB (Member # 1464) on :
 
Oh, yeah. Where's he from again? Some heartland state, right?
 
Posted by FIJC (Member # 1092) on :
 
quote:
"It's because he's the token democrat Bush has in his cabinet for PR purposes."
That's not why Coulter attacked him.

quote:
"Hmmmm. Why doesn't alien psycho girl like Mineta? I don't know much about him or his job performance."
Mineta actually has the job qualifications for his current post, whether one agrees with all of his political views or not. As for Mineta's views on racial profiling, many people (knee-jerk wingers such as Coulter) do not realize it is such a sensitive issue for him because he was actually stuck in a Japanese internment camp during WWII. His views on profiling (even though I have my own disagreements with him) come more from his actual personal experience, and not from some radical ideology.

[ December 15, 2004, 04:07 PM: Message edited by: FIJC ]
 
Posted by RickyB (Member # 1464) on :
 
Ah. Thanks.
 
Posted by Daruma28 (Member # 1388) on :
 
It's more than just what Ms. Coulter has said...

From Q&O:

quote:

The next loser who should be given his walking papers in Transportation Secretary Norm Mineta. In 2001, his appointment to the DOT didn’t seem like such a big deal. After 9/11, however, it has become a big deal, and, apparently, it’s a bigger deal than Mineta can handle.

Mineta has stressed repeatedly that no profiling of passenger will be allowed for any reason. As Heather MacDonald writes in City Journal:

quote:
Transportation Department secretary Norman Mineta bears much of the responsibility for the government’s irrationality regarding airline security. He infamously maintained in an interview that a grandmother from Vero Beach, Florida, should receive the same scrutiny at the airport as a young Saudi male, and he constantly warns that domestic internmentas in World War II may be just around the corner. And behind Mineta stands a permanent civil rights bureaucracy fixated on American racism. The same Transportation Department lawyer, for example, who complained in 1997 that the early prototype of CAPPS I might pull out "too many" people of the same ethnicity Sam Podberesky led the recent discrimination actions against the airlines. Without strong intervention from Mineta, DoT’s anti-discrimination machine, like most of those in the government, would run on autopilot, even though its priorities have been proved disastrously wrong."
Let’s review: " [A] grandmother from Vero Beach, Florida, should receive the same scrutiny at the airport as a young Saudi male." Its hard to even grasp the level of obtuseness required to formulate such stupidity. And the stupidity continues daily on Mr. Mineta’s watch. Michelle Malkin points out that the Air Marshal program adds to the joke that is airline security by making Air Marshals adhere to a policy that the Marshals refer to as the "Kill Me First" dress code. Air Marshals are required to wear suit coats and ties at all times, and to sport military haircuts. Additionally, they are required to pre-board the aircraft.

So, now, when you see the two hulking, short-haired gentlemen in suits boarding the plane with the elderly and the young children, you’ll know exactly who they are. And why shouldn’t you? Everyone else apparently does.

quote:
The Federal Law Enforcement Officers Association, which represents over 22,000 federal agents including air marshals, notes that civilian passengers have publicly outed marshals on countless flights since the Sept. 11 attacks. Air marshals have recounted receiving thumbs-ups and thanks from travelers nationwide. No doubt al Qaeda’s operatives who are surveilling flights are mumbling thanks under their breath, too.

Indeed, on an infamous American Airlines Flight 1438 from Chicago to Miami, two air marshals, dressed conspicuously in their professionally mandated suits, received the following greeting from a passenger walking down the aisle: "Oh, I see we have air marshals on board!"

Who else, one wonders, is taking careful note about where the Air Marshals are?

And yet, of the few first-term cabinet members who have been invited to remain, Mr. Mineta managed to keep his job.
As I consider all of this relevant, my biggest sticking point with him is his staunch opposition to allowing pilots to wear sidearms.

Apparently it's just too much freakin' common sense to use profiling and to arm pilots -- after all we see just how many hijackings have occurred with Israel's airlines since they employ profiling and arming their pilots.....
 
Posted by FIJC (Member # 1092) on :
 
quote:
"It's more than just what Ms. Coulter has said...

From Q&O:


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The next loser who should be given his walking papers in Transportation Secretary Norm Mineta. In 2001, his appointment to the DOT didn’t seem like such a big deal. After 9/11, however, it has become a big deal, and, apparently, it’s a bigger deal than Mineta can handle.

Mineta has stressed repeatedly that no profiling of passenger will be allowed for any reason. As Heather MacDonald writes in City Journal:"

Besides Coulter's personal attacks against Mineta, that is exactly what she said. Did you even read her articles? [Roll Eyes]
 
Posted by RickyB (Member # 1464) on :
 
While profiling is problematic, arming pilots is less so - especially since the marshalls are armed, so the danger of a shot going off on the plane is there anyway.
 
Posted by Daruma28 (Member # 1388) on :
 
Actually, I read Ms. Coulter's articles regularly. Most are pretty funny and quite sarcastic.

I enjoy sarcastic and sardonic writing from both the left and right.

Aside from that, Mineta is more obsessed with offending a person's ethnic sensiblities and idiotic notions of gun control than actually protecting people from violence. For that, he is a moron in my book. Sorry if that offends your sensibilities, but to me hurt feelings are nothing compared to people needlessly killed because of mindless obeisance to political correctness.
 
Posted by Pete at Home (Member # 429) on :
 
Ellen Degeneres got the same medal for boinking a heterosexual woman, so I don't see what the big deal is.
 
Posted by Kit (Member # 1299) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by RickyB:
While profiling is problematic, arming pilots is less so - especially since the marshalls are armed, so the danger of a shot going off on the plane is there anyway.

Now if only we had air marshals on any where near as many flights as we have pilots, then not arming pilots because the air marshals are armed might be a reasonable argument.
 
Posted by RickyB (Member # 1464) on :
 
Coulter is a childish twit, whose personality is unpleasant even for an 11 year old. "Our girls are prettier!"

[ December 15, 2004, 05:21 PM: Message edited by: RickyB ]
 
Posted by RickyB (Member # 1464) on :
 
Did she really? Plus, if a woman gets, um, "boinked" by another woman, doesn't that automatically move her to the "bisexual" column at the very least?

Plus, I always thought you need certain equipment to boink. Perhaps "munched" would be more accurate? (unless certain artificial aids were employed, of course...) [Big Grin]
 
Posted by Haggis (Member # 2114) on :
 
If I'm boinking a heterosexual woman can I get one as well?
 
Posted by RickyB (Member # 1464) on :
 
Get what? An artificial aid? [Razz]
 
Posted by FiredrakeRAGE (Member # 1224) on :
 
On SecTrans Mineta -

The guy maintains that everyone should receive the same level of scrutiny. This is exactly what most security experts (that have not been selling overpriced database software) have been saying. With the population of the world out there, recruiting a specific person for a terrorist mission is not difficult. If we strictly screen 18-25 year old Arab males, there will be an elderly female terrorist. The terrorists will, as a defense against security checks, use non-traditional terrorist-types. That is the reason that, from an anti-terrorism view, racial profiling does not work.

What does work, in a limited way, is to allow security personnel to flag people - and otherwise to conduct random bag checks. While allowing security personnel to flag people does leave a huge hole open for abuse of the system, with the proper oversight it could prove helpful. The human mind can recognize 'suspicious behavior' without even thinking about it.

The problem, of course, is oversight. Without a proper oversight program it is hard to flag abuses. Either the set rules in place allow too much leeway, or not enough.

To make a long story short: those who argue that racial profiling is a legitimate defense against terrorism are not thinking straight. Documents and backgrounds can be forged, Arabic persons can look Caucasian, or the terrorist could simply be Caucasian, or female, or young.

I am all for allowing weapons on planes. A well-placed pistol might have foiled at least one of the 9/11 attacks.

--Firedrake
 
Posted by FIJC (Member # 1092) on :
 
quote:
"I enjoy sarcastic and sardonic writing from both the left and right."
Honestly, Coulter's writing goes far beyond sarcasim and irony; it's not even that clever or intellectually stimulating. Most of her columns consist of name-calling and insults, which are not legitimate writing devices for me. For those of us who bust our butts everyday for the conservative movement, the Ann Coulters of the world do nothing to help our cause. Our goal is to change society and if we want to do this, we also have to get those who disagree with us to at least listen and even more, have open hearts when doing so. There are a lot of good and sincere people who work in the conservative movement for little pay and no recognition--those are the people who are the real movers and shakers; the lifeblood of the conservative movement.

Just out of curiousity...how many events do you think Coulter ends up canceling in a year?
 
Posted by Pete at Home (Member # 429) on :
 
quote:
Did she really? Plus, if a woman gets, um, "boinked" by another woman, doesn't that automatically move her to the "bisexual" column at the very least?
Well, as Heche would tell you, whatever term makes you feel comfortable, Ricky. http://forums.rpghost.com/showpost.php?p=378087&postcount=29 If I'm "comfortable" calling her heterosexual, she gives permission for that too. [Wink]

quote:
Plus, I always thought you need certain equipment to boink.
Ooh! You're soo narrow minded, Ricky [Wink]

actually, by Heche's account, it might be more accurate to say that Heche did the boinking.

quote:
If I'm boinking a heterosexual woman can I get one as well?
Equal protection demands no less [Wink]
 
Posted by Daruma28 (Member # 1388) on :
 
FIJC - here's a quote from Ann Coulter's column today that illustrates why I find her hilarious....

Discussing how some people seem to think that "circumstantial evidence" means "paltry" evidence:

quote:
In a murder case, all evidence of guilt other than eyewitness testimony is "circumstantial." Inasmuch as most murders do not occur at Grand Central Terminal during rush hour, it is not an uncommon occurrence to have murder convictions based entirely on circumstantial evidence. DNA evidence is "circumstantial evidence." Fingerprints are "circumstantial evidence." An eyewitness account of the perpetrator fleeing the scene of a stabbing with a bloody knife is "circumstantial evidence." Please stop referring to "circumstantial evidence" as if it doesn't count. There's a name for people who take a dim view of circumstantial evidence because they don't understand the concept of circumstantial evidence: They're called "O.J. jurors."
I almost sprayed my PC with coffee when I read that.
 
Posted by A. Alzabo (Member # 1197) on :
 
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If I'm boinking a heterosexual woman can I get one as well?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Equal protection demands no less

I think all this boinking demands that everybody use protection equally.
 
Posted by RickyB (Member # 1464) on :
 
quote:
Honestly, Coulter's writing goes far beyond sarcasim and irony; it's not even that clever or intellectually stimulating. Most of her columns consist of name-calling and insults, which are not legitimate writing devices for me. For those of us who bust our butts everyday for the conservative movement, the Ann Coulters of the world do nothing to help our cause."
You're gonna force me to like you, aren't you? [Smile]

Daruma - What's hilarious about that? I think it's simply wrong. DNA and fingerprints are not, AFAIK, considered "circumstancial evidence".

quote:
I think all this boinking demands that everybody use protection equally.
Good one!!
 
Posted by Daruma28 (Member # 1388) on :
 
Here ya go Ricky -- from Google's Web definitions for "Circumstantial evidence"

quote:
Evidence which may allow a judge or jury to deduce a certain fact from other facts which have been proven. In some cases, there can be some evidence that can not be proven directly, such as with an eye-witness. And yet that evidence may be essential to prove a case. In these cases, the lawyer will provide the judge or juror with evidence of the circumstances from which a juror or judge can logically deduct, or reasonably infer, the fact that cannot be proven directly; it is proven by the evidence of the circumstances; hence, "circumstantial" evidence. Fingerprints are an example of circumstantial evidence: while there may be no witness to a person's presence in a certain place, or contact with a certain object, the scientific evidence of someone's fingerprints is persuasive proof of a person's presence or contact with an object.
Hey, humor is in the eye of the reader I guess. I found it quite funny - especially since I believe OJ was guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. That jury got snookered by Johnny Cochran, who turned it into the "Mark Fuhrman is a racist" trial, despite the overwhelming circumstantial evidence. [Wink]
 
Posted by Daruma28 (Member # 1388) on :
 
More Coulter quotes I like...

quote:


"Indeed, the media elites covering national politics would be indistinguishable from the Democratic Party except the Democratic Party isn't liberal enough. A higher percentage of the Washington press corps voted for Clinton in 1992 than did his demographic category: 'Registered Democrats.'"

"If liberals were prevented from ever again calling Republicans dumb, they would be robbed of half their arguments. To be sure, they would still have "racist," "fascist," "homophobe," "ugly," and a few other highly nuanced arguments in the quiver. But the loss of "dumb" would nearly cripple them."

"The imaginary threat of the "religious right" is important because it allows liberals to complain about their victimization by religious zealots. It is not sufficient compensation to be applauded wildly on Politically Incorrect and other late-night TV shows, profiled in fawning articles in the New York Times, photographed for People magazine, showered with awards, Pulitizer Prizes, and other sundry tributes. Liberals insist that they also be admired for their bravery in standing up to Christians."

"So now we have idiots like Sen. Joe Biden, D-Del., saying race discrimination is no different than colleges admitting legacies. One difference is – as Terry Eastland famously said – we didn't fight a civil war to stop colleges from giving a preference to the children of alumni."

"As Bush said, after detailing some of Saddam Hussein's charming practices: "If this is not evil, then evil has no meaning." It's not as if anyone is worried that we're making a horrible miscalculation and could be removing the Iraqi Abraham Lincoln by mistake."

"They said chemical weapons would be used against our troops. That didn't happen. They predicted huge civilian casualties. That didn't happen. They said Americans would turn against the war as our troops came home in body bags. That didn't happen. They warned of a mammoth terrorist attack in America if we invaded Iraq. That didn't happen. Just two weeks ago, they claimed American troops were caught in another Vietnam quagmire. That didn't happen. Now the biggest mishap liberals can seize on is that some figurines from an Iraqi museum were broken – a relief to college students everywhere who have ever been forced to gaze upon Mesopotamian pottery."

"If John Kerry had a dollar for every time he bragged about serving in Vietnam – oh wait, he does."

"Equal Opportunity, Affirmative Action Employer." Well, which is it?"

"The key to the U.N.'s global warming study was man's use of aerosol spray. You have to know the French were involved in a study concluding that Arrid Extra Dry is destroying the Earth. In a world in which everyone smelled, the French would be at no disadvantage. Aerosol spray. How convenient."

"MacArthur was still in Tokyo straightening out Japan in 1950 – five years after V-J Day. Not only was Japan an advanced and ethnically unified country, but U.S. forces also made things easier for MacArthur by killing several million of the most militant anti-American Japanese during World War II. Paul Bremer doesn't have this advantage in Iraq. In fact, he has the reverse situation: Saddam killed the most pro-American Iraqis before the war."

"Inconsolable that their pleas to "work through" the U.N. did not stop Bush from invading Iraq and deposing Saddam Hussein, now all the Democrats are eager for the U.N. to get involved so it can wreck the rebuilding process. Since we didn't let the U.N. lose the war for us, the least we can do is let them screw up the peace."

"Apparently it is urgent that we replace the best fighting force in the world with an "international peacekeeping force," i.e., a task force both feared and respected worldwide for its ability to distribute powdered milk to poor children."


From "The best of Ann Coulter" by RightWingNews.com

I do understand why a lot of you would not find these funny...but I find them pretty humorous. [Wink]
 
Posted by RickyB (Member # 1464) on :
 
OK, I guess I was wrong, but when most people use the term circumstancial evidence, they don't refer to stuff like fingerprints on the murder weapon or dna of the suspect in the rape/murder victim's body. They refer to stuff like proof someone was in the victim's building or proof that he hated the victim or threatened the victim. Most people refer to fingerprints as proof. (not necessarily proof positive of the actual crime, since your prints on the gun don't mean you're the one who shot the victim, but proof of touching whatever the prints were found on).

As for your quotes - very few of those (Kerry having a buck for every time he bragged about Vietnam, for instance) ARE funny. If you flap your lips 24/7, you're bound to spit out a zinger every now and then. A mouse running across the keys of a piano may by chance create a pleasant sound. For all of that, it is still a mouse and not a concert pianist.

What she said about the looting of the museum, for instance, was asinine and phillistine. Most of her stuff is stupid hyperbole.
 
Posted by JLMyers (Member # 1983) on :
 
These medal presentations are a disgrace, and Coulter is a pretentious bitch.

KE
 


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