Author Topic: Finland is considering giving every citizen €800 a month  (Read 3767 times)

OrneryMod

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NobleHunter

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Re: Finland is considering giving every citizen €800 a month
« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2016, 04:04:49 PM »
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In Ottawa, a federal MP is pushing for government research on the subject.

Ontario's provincial budget announced a pilot program to try it out. In Quebec, a cabinet minister has been assigned to study the topic.

The mayors of Calgary and Edmonton are both on board. And the Manitoba Liberals are promising their own trial if they win the April 19 provincial election.

Basic income is capturing political imaginations in Canada.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/basic-income-interest-1.3479079

Not just Europeans any more.

Though given how resource-based our economy is, I'm not sure we'd be able to avoid substantial inflation in the event that our major trading partners cut back on the amount of stuff they buy.

D.W.

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Re: Finland is considering giving every citizen €800 a month
« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2016, 04:20:35 PM »
This ties in well with TheDrake's observation regarding AI gobbling up more jobs soon.  :)

I don't know what will be more chaotic.  Moving away from a work-centric measuring bar on what you are worth to a society?  Or the fact that so much of our schooling has sacrificed the arts for a generation or more with no indications of a reversal of that trend?

TheDrake

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Re: Finland is considering giving every citizen €800 a month
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2016, 04:15:14 PM »
Agrarian -> Industrial -> Information -> ???

Will we even have a point? Will we be the Eloi from the future dreamed up by HG Wells?

In a resource rich world, what will art look like when humanity no longer struggles for basic elements of survival? What would politics be like, assuming we make the choice to just let everyone live in a basic way?

Do even the people who created the AI keep their jobs, or does the AI transcend them as well and invent newer, more powerful AI?

We're a long way off from that state, but the argument of entitlements is starting to change from one of "we could never afford that" to a moral one "we should keep what we earn". It is also not impossible to imagine a social movement where the force is taken out of the equation and this is done voluntarily. Imagine a handful of billionaires getting together and just saying "yeah, lets set up a trust for all of humanity"

Fenring

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Re: Finland is considering giving every citizen €800 a month
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2016, 04:34:09 PM »
It is also not impossible to imagine a social movement where the force is taken out of the equation and this is done voluntarily. Imagine a handful of billionaires getting together and just saying "yeah, lets set up a trust for all of humanity"

What you're talking about is slavery done right, where the slaves are given pleasant lives and many "choices" to make that are, in fact, irrelevant (like what kind of shampoo to use). I think this is a very real possibility down the line, and it would take some strong force - like a disaster - to avert this. It is already verging towards that reality now but only partially.

The best way out of that scenario is to eliminate the incentive to hoard resources (i.e. wealth) by shifting towards a system where bonds cannot be privately accumulated. Give people the power to exchange bonds and some people will always find a way to get more of them or even nearly all of them eventually. Take away this power and people have to just spend what they've got, and no one can grab up anyone else's.

Pyrtolin

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Re: Finland is considering giving every citizen €800 a month
« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2016, 04:58:18 PM »
We're a long way off from that state, but the argument of entitlements is starting to change from one of "we could never afford that" to a moral one "we should keep what we earn". It is also not impossible to imagine a social movement where the force is taken out of the equation and this is done voluntarily. Imagine a handful of billionaires getting together and just saying "yeah, lets set up a trust for all of humanity"
That assumes that the billionaires are the source of money, rather than simply just users of it.

Why not simply have that money originate from the public trust so that no private individuals have control over it? Insulate people from control or living at the will of those wealthy private individuals and instead require anyone that wants to be wealthy to continue finding ways to provide value for others such that they keep earning revenue.

scifibum

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Re: Finland is considering giving every citizen €800 a month
« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2016, 05:55:20 PM »
I don't think there's an alternative to a massive welfare state past a certain technological tipping point, and I think we're near it.  Well, there are alternatives, but they are bad.

TheDrake

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Re: Finland is considering giving every citizen €800 a month
« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2016, 06:04:36 PM »
Yes, the billionaire volunteer model is a transitional thought. You could just suddenly erase the books and say nobody ever earned anything. You could continue with a broken tax code. You could tax consumption rather than income, or collect income equally rather than favor capital gains. There are a variety of ways to redefine or eliminate the concept of "money" entirely. They all require an element of force, and they all involve changing the rules of the game dramatically. I am merely suggesting that such a transition could happen without government action or involvement.

TheDrake

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Re: Finland is considering giving every citizen €800 a month
« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2016, 06:17:37 PM »
Why not simply have that money originate from the public trust so that no private individuals have control over it? Insulate people from control or living at the will of those wealthy private individuals and instead require anyone that wants to be wealthy to continue finding ways to provide value for others such that they keep earning revenue.

Instead live at the will of government functionaries? Have you seen any of them speak lately?

It sounds like you'd like to make savings illegal! What about the athlete who retires having made a small fortune in their 30s. They have to get on out there and learn a trade so they can provide value for others? I will say that for a level playing field, I kind of like the idea of maxing out inheritance taxes, but it won't stop guys like Trump from getting a handout from Daddy to start playing with.

Pyrtolin

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Re: Finland is considering giving every citizen €800 a month
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2016, 12:14:10 PM »
Why not simply have that money originate from the public trust so that no private individuals have control over it? Insulate people from control or living at the will of those wealthy private individuals and instead require anyone that wants to be wealthy to continue finding ways to provide value for others such that they keep earning revenue.

Instead live at the will of government functionaries? Have you seen any of them speak lately?
The difference is that you can vote them out if they do poorly. you can't vote out a plutocrat that you pay rent to in order to survive and dictates that you'll earn just enough to be in perpetual debt to make that rent.

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It sounds like you'd like to make savings illegal!
On what basis?  Save if you like or need to in order to make a large investment. To the contrary, what I'm suggesting would actually make savings _possible_ for the majority, instead of a luxury of the upper crust as it is now. But it would also make it less important unless you actually needed to acquire a disproportionate share of available resources for something you wanted to accomplish that's too risky to justify a grant or loan to do it.

Far from eliminating savings- my suggesting is to make more savings possible, since every dollar issued comes with an extra dollar of possible net savings. It's taxation that destroys savings by directly eliminating the financial space ("debt") available for people to employ as savings.

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What about the athlete who retires having made a small fortune in their 30s.
You may want to look at how well that goes for most of them even in the modern system. Ensure enough baseline income and they could retire and coast on that value to the degree taht they can manage their assets instead of finding themselves and not have to worry about the bottom falling out if they make a mistake.

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They have to get on out there and learn a trade so they can provide value for others?
They can choose to. Many are currently in that position because there's no minimum standard to protect them if they screw up, any they're not operating with the backing of a generational stockpile that can keep funding them till they learn to get it right. Cover their baseline and they get many more chances to learn from their mistakes, before, at worst, ending up at the baseline.

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I will say that for a level playing field, I kind of like the idea of maxing out inheritance taxes, but it won't stop guys like Trump from getting a handout from Daddy to start playing with.
Sure, and there really isn't a problem with that. The issue is with the people that don't have that kind of backing and so can't even try in the first place, never mind keep trying over and over again until they manage to make something work. Those people are why a baseline income is important, so everyone can enjoy a common minimum effective simulation of having that kind of backing. Not to the same degree as Trump, sure, but the point is a minimum baseline that's enough to provide everyone with the opportunity to succeed, not to try to eliminate the variation that comes with prior success.

Pyrtolin

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Re: Finland is considering giving every citizen €800 a month
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2016, 12:19:46 PM »
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“Consumption is the sole end and purpose of all production; and the interest of the producer ought to be attended to, only so far as it may be necessary for promoting that of the consumer. The maxim is so perfectly self–evident, that it would be absurd to attempt to prove it. But in the mercantile system, the interest of the consumer is almost constantly sacrificed to that of the producer; and it seems to consider production, and not consumption, as the ultimate end and object of all industry and
commerce” (WN IV.viii.49: 660)

As we progress, consumption taxes only get even more absurd and self destructive than they are now. They attack and discourage the primary mechanism and need that markets fulfil. Taxes should serve to discourage anti-competitive, destructive, or exploitative behaviors, not essential functions. The ideal, in an efficient market should be that while taxes nominally exist, no one pays them because they're not engaging in any activities that undermine the market or otherwise do more harm than good such that there's a need to put a public price on them.

Fenring

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Re: Finland is considering giving every citizen €800 a month
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2016, 12:27:49 PM »
Drake is right that people in government are a problem unto themselves, and I disagree with you, Pyr, when you say just vote them out if you don't like them. In the case of government corruption, conflict of interest, and other systemic factors, voting out one guy will do nothing to solve the problem which is the issue facing America right now. Solve for the systemic anomaly and you don't have to worry about the individual abusing it.

I would therefore suggest that in any system that will increase dependency on government and its officials the very first step that must be taken to guarantee the solvency of such a system is to eliminate these conflicts of interest by making it literally impossible for officials to profit by taking undesirable actions. Disincentives (such as it being illegal) are not enough to offset the possible great gains of doing so; it must actually be removed from them as a possible option by altering the mechanics of how their position works. When you take away temptation to acquire power or resources suddenly I think you'll find better quality of people reaching for such positions since the ones motivated by the old incentives won't bother to the same extent. When normal people occupy such positions they may not be stellar at it but they tend to care about what they're doing.

Pyrtolin

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Re: Finland is considering giving every citizen €800 a month
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2016, 12:48:38 PM »
That's why I suggest that all public officials should, at a minimum, remain on a public pension be barred from any private employment for a significant period of time (~10 years at least) after leaving office and immediately not only have to pay back their entire public earnings if they break that, but be subject to an immediate corruption probe. They can offer any nonpolitical services they life for free during that period, since the public is paying them to give them free choice of how to spend their time.

But here's the thing- you can point to problems with a democratic system, but they're problems taht _can be fixed_ through the democratic process if people chose to engage in trying to fix them.

The problems in a plutocratic cannot be fixed short of the plutocrats deciding to throw the people a bone or outright revolution against the leaders.

There's going to be a government in control no matter what. the only choice is whether it's one that you have input in or one you don't.

TheDrake

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Re: Finland is considering giving every citizen €800 a month
« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2016, 12:57:13 PM »
I would therefore suggest that in any system that will increase dependency on government and its officials the very first step that must be taken to guarantee the solvency of such a system is to eliminate these conflicts of interest by making it literally impossible for officials to profit by taking undesirable actions.

New Hampshire actually does some of this with their state legislature.

The House has 402 legislators, and each represents 3000 residents. This means no one person holds the key to success, power is not concentrated. They are also more easily held accountable by the electorate.

They also have a total salary of $200 for their entire two year term. And no per diem. Which makes them volunteers, not career politicians. No other state comes close.

It is probably no surprise that it is only one of nine states that have no wage tax, and one of only five with no sales tax. The roads get paved with a combination of high property tax and tax on investment income.

The combination of this lack of taxes is almost like giving every citizen a wad of cash every month.



Pyrtolin

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Re: Finland is considering giving every citizen €800 a month
« Reply #14 on: March 11, 2016, 01:09:50 PM »
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The House has 402 legislators, and each represents 3000 residents. This means no one person holds the key to success, power is not concentrated. They are also more easily held accountable by the electorate.
I'd love nothing more than to increase the US house size significantly for the sake of accountability, accurate representation, etc.. It might be logistically ugly, but I see technology as a good tool to smooth a lot of that over.

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They also have a total salary of $200 for their entire two year term. And no per diem. Which makes them volunteers, not career politicians. No other state comes close.
This only goes so far, once wealth divides increase enough that buying enough out become a matter of pocket change, and it leaves them with split loyalties between their constituents and their personal source of income. I'd prefer them to be 100% dependent on appeasing their constituents with no conflict of interest/ (That also includes full and exclusive public funding of campaigns, and moving all financial assets to a blind trust while in office on top of what I said above, such that the quality of their public service is their only priority)

But it's a good state level experiment, both in terms of self determination, variety, and experimentation and because the federal government can exercise its authority to protect people from their state should it go bad, so there's a backstop against worst case scenarios.

Pete at Home

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Re: Finland is considering giving every citizen €800 a month
« Reply #15 on: March 11, 2016, 02:26:37 PM »
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That's why I suggest that all public officials should, at a minimum, remain on a public pension be barred from any private employment for a significant period of time (~10 years at least) after leaving office and immediately not only have to pay back their entire public earnings if they break that, but be subject to an immediate corruption probe.

That's overinclusive and underinclusive.  Overinclusive because it bans jobs not reasonably corruptible (e.g plumbing or working as a cashier) and underinclusive because it doesnnt prevent clintonic investment schemes.

Pyrtolin

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Re: Finland is considering giving every citizen €800 a month
« Reply #16 on: March 11, 2016, 02:34:57 PM »
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That's why I suggest that all public officials should, at a minimum, remain on a public pension be barred from any private employment for a significant period of time (~10 years at least) after leaving office and immediately not only have to pay back their entire public earnings if they break that, but be subject to an immediate corruption probe.

That's overinclusive and underinclusive.  Overinclusive because it bans jobs not reasonably corruptible (e.g plumbing or working as a cashier) and underinclusive because it doesnnt prevent clintonic investment schemes.

It's not comprehensive, just one specific idea (see also the later mention of blind trusts). And nothing stops them from doing that kind of work if they find it fulfilling, just taking pay for it, since they're already on the public payroll for whatever work they choose to do.

Fenring

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Re: Finland is considering giving every citizen €800 a month
« Reply #17 on: March 11, 2016, 02:35:14 PM »
That's why I suggest that all public officials should, at a minimum, remain on a public pension be barred from any private employment for a significant period of time (~10 years at least) after leaving office and immediately not only have to pay back their entire public earnings if they break that, but be subject to an immediate corruption probe. They can offer any nonpolitical services they life for free during that period, since the public is paying them to give them free choice of how to spend their time.

We're totally on the same page here, although in some cases I'd even go further than this. I also agree with you about the good parts of what New Hampshire does. I'm a fan of that state for a few reasons, and of Vermont also. An important step in creating real representation is in reducing the amount of individuals any one person can represent to a manageable number. It should almost be capped at a number such that you have the potential to get to know every single one of them personally to at least a minimal extent.

TheDrake

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Re: Finland is considering giving every citizen €800 a month
« Reply #18 on: March 11, 2016, 03:07:40 PM »
Lower ratios of legislators to constituents also has the benefit of putting most gerrymandering to rest, since the districts are so small and not worth redrawing.

yossarian22c

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Re: Finland is considering giving every citizen €800 a month
« Reply #19 on: March 13, 2016, 10:19:41 PM »
I bet you would be surprised at what people considered worth redrawing every 10 years for political advantage.

yossarian22c

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Re: Finland is considering giving every citizen €800 a month
« Reply #20 on: March 13, 2016, 10:30:43 PM »
I'm all for a minimum guaranteed income, I think between $8k-$10K per year is right for the current environment.  If I got to be king and set it up I would establish it with automatic stabilizers so that as the unemployment rate went up the payments would increase.  Also if a large class of workers quickly becomes obsolete (say long haul truck drivers) people who had been working in the field would receive double the amount.  I think in my lifetime I will be able to see if we are heading towards a peaceful, plentiful, happy world, or a new dark ages and technological feudalism.  I am very concerned by the moral (as opposed to economic) arguments being made against a more progressive tax system or state support.  Makers vs. takers ends poorly when most of the "maker's" employees are robots. 

Pyrtolin

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Re: Finland is considering giving every citizen €800 a month
« Reply #21 on: March 14, 2016, 12:10:50 PM »
I'd rather employment be kept at a permanent 0 by offering guaranteed baseline employment to anyone who wants a job in excess of what hey get in therms of basic income. Fixed pay and benefits, as best effort as is possible to fit you with something that matches your skills or gives you training in a direction you want to move in.

For field obsolescence and layoffs of anyone that's invested more than a certain amount of time and effort into a career in that field, I'd say it would make sense to more or less fully buy out their progression- let them effectively retire early and continue to pay them on the terms of the same contractual grading they'd have gotten if they'd stayed in till retirement., with a reasonable income based phaseout that results in a slight bonus overall if they do train into and find another field of employment.

I'd far rather see workers in any given field actively supporting efforts to make their work technologically obsolete than being forced to fight progress out of fear of survival, since they both have the most at stake and are the actual source of the most meaningful improvements because they're closest to the actual work that needs to be done.

Fenring

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Re: Finland is considering giving every citizen €800 a month
« Reply #22 on: March 14, 2016, 01:00:51 PM »
I'd rather employment be kept at a permanent 0 by offering guaranteed baseline employment to anyone who wants a job in excess of what hey get in therms of basic income. Fixed pay and benefits, as best effort as is possible to fit you with something that matches your skills or gives you training in a direction you want to move in.

What would you say about people who want a job but where the market does not naturally produce such a job? For instance, let's say the workforce right now consists of 100 million people, and of those 20 million decide they want to make do just living on the basic income and living with roommates or family. Of the remaining 80 million that would like more money and therefore a job, what if there are only 75 million jobs? Or even worse, what if the number declines regularly year after year with the inevitable projection 30 years down the line of massive unemployment? Would you do as Keynes suggests, which is to have them dig for gold on the government dollar (which he says is equivalent to just giving them a check)? Or rephrased: how does the government guarantee employment as you suggest? Where does the money from this come from if it will be new government jobs?

Pyrtolin

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Re: Finland is considering giving every citizen €800 a month
« Reply #23 on: March 14, 2016, 02:27:52 PM »
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What would you say about people who want a job but where the market does not naturally produce such a job? For instance, let's say the workforce right now consists of 100 million people, and of those 20 million decide they want to make do just living on the basic income and living with roommates or family. Of the remaining 80 million that would like more money and therefore a job, what if there are only 75 million jobs?
I'd say that people have suffered a massive hit to creativity if they can't come with something to do.

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Or even worse, what if the number declines regularly year after year with the inevitable projection 30 years down the line of massive unemployment?
When we hit the inflection point that everything that people need and might want is being produced, and all auxiliary jobs around it are completely filled, and the population is so saturated with artistic/entertainment output that they can't possibly consume more, then I'm sure we can have another conversation about how to overcome that next step transition- but that's out at the far side of Star Trek from where we are now.

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Would you do as Keynes suggests, which is to have them dig for gold on the government dollar (which he says is equivalent to just giving them a check)?
What he suggested was taht burying money in a ruble heap and having people dig for it made about as much sense as making them do something as productively useless as digging for gold to get money.

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Or rephrased: how does the government guarantee employment as you suggest?
There's a huge backlog of infrastructure and maintenance work just as a baseline, not to mention internships and non-profit work that are currently being done on an unpaid basis that could just as easily be paid work. WE could bring back the WPA Federal Project Number One ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Project_Number_One ) which has almost limiteless employment potential.


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Where does the money from this come from if it will be new government jobs?
Same place as all government money comes from. By the government asserting it exists by fiat. And that way, the employment level automatically helps control the amount of money being added to the economy to drive consumer demand, and thus private employment opportunities. It's a stimulus package that automatically kicks in when private employment falls and turns itself off as the economy improves, and far more effective than paying unemployment benefits to keep people out of the market until demand has tightened up enough.

Fenring

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Re: Finland is considering giving every citizen €800 a month
« Reply #24 on: March 14, 2016, 03:36:31 PM »
Ok, so you didn't really have an answer. This isn't really anything negative about you since in the current system I don't think there is an answer. Why you should call the ability produce goods easily with minimal human labor and distribute it with robots as "as massive hit to creativity" is beyond me. The best result in creativity would literally be to eliminate the need for manual and service labor altogether and to find some other use for human life. That is the Star Trek world, which I doubt anyone would qualify as being the death blow to creativity. However on your point about being able to produce and distribute enough stuff without needing the entire workforce to do it - that's not Star Trek, that's already here. Otherwise we wouldn't need political subsidies to corporate and military interests to keep the GDP up. If all foreign military adventures as well as arms sales came to a screeching halt the U.S. economy would keel over.

Pyrtolin

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Re: Finland is considering giving every citizen €800 a month
« Reply #25 on: March 14, 2016, 03:53:36 PM »
Ok, so you didn't really have an answer. This isn't really anything negative about you since in the current system I don't think there is an answer. Why you should call the ability produce goods easily with minimal human labor and distribute it with robots as "as massive hit to creativity" is beyond me.
The inability to think of things that you can do for other people that they'd be willing to pay you for is a lack of creativity. As is the lack of assignments to give people to keep up employment related habits while they wait for better opportunities to come up in the case that there is absolutely noting productive left to do.

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However on your point about being able to produce and distribute enough stuff without needing the entire workforce to do it - that's not Star Trek, that's already here. Otherwise we wouldn't need political subsidies to corporate and military interests to keep the GDP up. If all foreign military adventures as well as arms sales came to a screeching halt the U.S. economy would keel over.
The people making much of the media that we consume on a daily basis are doing it for free on their own time, we're not nearly at the point yet where everyone doing something productive that others find direct value in are being paid, never mind all manner of volunteer work that is going on or could be done.

Fenring

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Re: Finland is considering giving every citizen €800 a month
« Reply #26 on: March 14, 2016, 04:27:51 PM »
The inability to think of things that you can do for other people that they'd be willing to pay you for is a lack of creativity. As is the lack of assignments to give people to keep up employment related habits while they wait for better opportunities to come up in the case that there is absolutely noting productive left to do.

I know it's not your position, but this argument is exactly the one made by hard-line conservatives about how when someone is unemployed it's his own fault. Calling a people collectively uncreative is roughly equivalent to calling them lazy or unprincipled - in other words, a far-right wing position on unemployment. Since I know that's not at all your conviction I would suggest to you that this line of reasoning of yours leads inevitably to conclusions drawn by John Birchers on the subject.

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The people making much of the media that we consume on a daily basis are doing it for free on their own time, we're not nearly at the point yet where everyone doing something productive that others find direct value in are being paid, never mind all manner of volunteer work that is going on or could be done.

All of this is true but irrelevant. That fact that there are many useful and productive things to do in life other than work at Walmart has no bearing at all on whether a successful business model can be created to turn what used to be a pastime or volunteer work into an industry. Hell, there's so much artistic expression and production that goes unpaid too, and yet I promise you this will not suddenly congeal into a new sector of the economy when service tanks in favor of automation. The new job areas that will arise will become more and more technically demanding (IT and computer technicians is only the start), and very few people will be able to fill them. I'll also note, since we're on the subject of a basic income, that a great deal of the volunteering that goes on now exists precisely because of poverty, and therefore if abject poverty was eliminated the demand for volunteers of this type would be dramatically reduced. It would be very interesting to me to see new types of volunteering begin, such as even government volunteers to help the community, but even so this cannot be converted into an out-and-out industry that could replace service. If the service sector falls it's over. Even service never successfully filled the void left by manufacturing, but it sufficed for a time, albeit poorly. There will be nothing to replace the service sector when it vanishes.

Pyrtolin

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Re: Finland is considering giving every citizen €800 a month
« Reply #27 on: March 14, 2016, 04:53:44 PM »
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I know this it your position, but this argument is exactly the one made by hard-line conservatives about how when someone is unemployed it's his own fault.
If an entire public agency is unable to come up with work assignments for people that need jobs because every possible thing that can be done is being done, then yes, I'll call it a lack of creativity.

The problem with the conservative argument is that they say that people should be let stave or otherwise be punished for not having the resources or inspiration to find productive activities to engage them, not pointing to the fact that there are many people who need the help of others to sort that out.

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Since I know that's not at all your conviction I would suggest to you that this line of reasoning of yours leads inevitably to conclusions drawn by John Birchers on the subject.
Goodwin by any other name? Hitler built cars and supported medical research. Are those bad things then? Pointing out that people that come to bad conclusions acknowledge things that are factual doesn't mean the facts are bad, just the reasoning that got them to the bad conclusions or policies from those facts.

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All of this is true but irrelevant. That fact that there are many useful and productive things to do in life other than work at Walmart has no bearing at all on whether a successful business model can be created to turn what used to be a pastime or volunteer work into an industry.
What business model. You need work? You go to a public work office, they assign you to what would have been volunteer work if we were still trying to make people do it for free, and you get benefits and a check for doing it. I'd include a decent cut out time for education (if we didn't just count being a student as a kind of work that you get basic pay for unto itself) and searching for other employment, but the model is pretty simple and doesn't really need many fancy bells and whistles. MAybe al little more planning where it comes to farming people out to businesses or non-profits looking for interns, just to be sure taht they're not displacing permanent paid positions with free public labor, but we already have some bounds on that given the current rules about internships and the like that would just need to be adjusted a little.

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Hell, there's so much artistic expression and production that goes unpaid too, and yet I promise you this will not suddenly congeal into a new sector of the economy when service tanks in favor of automation.
There are many people that with the combination of a basic income and a Project One type of income would be freed to not only concentrate on artistic work but also free up private employment for others, that it would be a major boon to overall economic activity.

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The new job areas that will arise will become more and more technically demanding (IT and computer technicians is only the start), and very few people will be able to fill them.
In our current system where few can afford the time and education, sure. In a system taht gives them the time and education, then that's not so true. Especially if we can pay them to learn it as an internship type of job.

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I'll also note, since we're on the subject of a basic income, that a great deal of the volunteering that goes on now exists precisely because of poverty, and therefore if abject poverty was eliminated the demand for volunteers of this type would be dramatically reduced.
People aren't going to stop littering because they're not poor anymore.

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It would be very interesting to me to see new types of volunteering begin, such as even government volunteers to help the community, but even so this cannot be converted into an out-and-out industry that could replace service.
It doesn't need to become an industry. It should, perhaps support certain industries taht can benefit entry level workers that cost it nothing with experience that they can apply to future jobs, the the program itself should just serve as the baseline to mop up the people that don't fit into any current industry- to meet their need for work and reward them with a bit of extra income so that they're not left hanging if they can't figure out some other way to invest their time that they find fulfilling.

JoshCrow

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Re: Finland is considering giving every citizen €800 a month
« Reply #28 on: December 11, 2017, 11:14:58 AM »
Interesting article linking to a meta-study that looked into, specifically, the idea that Basic Income may lead to a surge in drug use.

https://medium.com/age-of-awareness/universal-basic-income-vs-addiction-9be994f6acc5

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Well, do they waste the money on alcohol and cigarettes or not? They do not. When we examine 44 estimates of spending on alcohol and tobacco across 19 studies and 13 interventions (i.e., Oportunidades/PROGRESA is very well studied), we find that the vast majority of estimates (82%) are negative. More than a quarter are negative and significant, and only 2 are positive and significant. With both of the positive and significant estimates, estimates within the study are discordant (i.e., one positive and one negative).

So, apparently not - at least, not under the conditions they've tested. I dig the discussion of Rat Park in there.