Author Topic: Comrade Trump and Russian insurgent hackers  (Read 10776 times)

DonaldD

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Comrade Trump and Russian insurgent hackers
« on: December 12, 2016, 06:18:00 PM »
I don't see this topic being discussed anywhere - does everybody here believe that Russia interfering in US elections, to the point of possibly affecting the outcome, is really not worthy of discussion?

And if not that, what about the president-elect getting into public, 140-character fisticuffs with the CIA in its official capacity of informing the incoming administration?

From the Washington Post: Secret CIA assessment says Russia was trying to help Trump win White House

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/obama-orders-review-of-russian-hacking-during-presidential-campaign/2016/12/09/31d6b300-be2a-11e6-94ac-3d324840106c_story.html?utm_term=.26488fc7bfd5

Wayward Son

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Re: Comrade Trump and Russian insurgent hackers
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2016, 06:41:57 PM »
Or how about Trump asking why this wasn't brought up before the election, when Hillary mentioned it in all three debates. :)

The worst part is that, by trying to stop any investigation into Russian hacking, it makes it look like he is afraid of what they will find. ;)

TheDeamon

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Re: Comrade Trump and Russian insurgent hackers
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2016, 10:06:50 PM »
Or how about Trump asking why this wasn't brought up before the election, when Hillary mentioned it in all three debates. :)

The worst part is that, by trying to stop any investigation into Russian hacking, it makes it look like he is afraid of what they will find. ;)

Based on the Wisconsin recount results, odds are, they'll find: Nothing.

If Russia did get involved, it was on the propaganda/disinformation side of things. Which isn't the same thing as tampering directly with the ballot box.

Unless they're saying the Russians had a "ground game" on the order of things some of the pro-Voter ID people have been shouting alarms about? In which case, once again, strong odds they'll find nothing as the Voting system isn't really geared towards identifying or preventing such "attacks" even in Voter ID states if someone is determined enough.

DonaldD

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Re: Comrade Trump and Russian insurgent hackers
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2016, 10:36:20 PM »
TheDeamon - the contention is not that Russians connected to the government hacked the voting process itself, but that they were involved in targeted propaganda with the aim of affecting the election outcome.

That all the US intelligence agencies basically agree on the actions that took place, but seemingly only disagree on the degree of certainty with which they can link the actions directly to the Kremlin, is pretty convincing.

It's no longer a question of what they will find - they have already found sufficient evidence to characterize the conclusions with the term "high confidence", which is spook speak for "pretty darned sure", supposedly.

From Reuters:
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A senior U.S. intelligence official told Reuters intelligence agencies have concluded with “high confidence” that not only did their Russian counterparts direct the hacking of Democratic Party organizations and leaders, but they did so to undermine Democratic candidate Hillary Clinton.

So, US intelligence agencies as a group confidently believe that an adversarial foreign power at the very least attempted to negatively affect the electoral chances of a major party candidate for president (not to mention the downstream effects) yet strangely, almost no US citizens on this board give this more than a passing yawn..?  Your electoral system was just attacked by a foreign power - basically, the underpinning of your whole democracy has been attacked - and nobody can muster even a peep of resistance?

cherrypoptart

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Re: Comrade Trump and Russian insurgent hackers
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2016, 11:00:17 PM »
What if the extent of their interference was that they were involved with the DNC hacks but ultimately all they revealed was the real emails?

Should we be mad that we learned the truth about the Democrats, how they think and operate?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And why didn't the Democrats get mad when Ted Kennedy asked the Russians to interfere in Reagan's reelection campaign?

http://www.forbes.com/2009/08/27/ted-kennedy-soviet-union-ronald-reagan-opinions-columnists-peter-robinson.html

8/28/2009 @ 12:01AM

Ted Kennedy's Soviet Gambit
      
"Picking his way through the Soviet archives that Boris Yeltsin had just thrown open, in 1991 Tim Sebastian, a reporter for the London Times, came across an arresting memorandum. Composed in 1983 by Victor Chebrikov, the top man at the KGB, the memorandum was addressed to Yuri Andropov, the top man in the entire USSR. The subject: Sen. Edward Kennedy.

“On 9-10 May of this year,” the May 14 memorandum explained, “Sen. Edward Kennedy’s close friend and trusted confidant [John] Tunney was in Moscow.” (Tunney was Kennedy’s law school roommate and a former Democratic senator from California.) “The senator charged Tunney to convey the following message, through confidential contacts, to the General Secretary of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, Y. Andropov.”

Kennedy’s message was simple. He proposed an unabashed quid pro quo. Kennedy would lend Andropov a hand in dealing with President Reagan. In return, the Soviet leader would lend the Democratic Party a hand in challenging Reagan in the 1984 presidential election. “The only real potential threats to Reagan are problems of war and peace and Soviet-American relations,” the memorandum stated. “These issues, according to the senator, will without a doubt become the most important of the election campaign.”

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Would I be more upset about it all if the Russians had helped Hillary get elected instead of Trump?

Probably.

Would Democrats not care so much, or not care at all, and indeed be charging that these are all just conspiracy theories and sour grapes coming from sore losers if the Russians had helped Hillary get elected instead of Trump?

From the way what Ted Kennedy did hasn't made the news to give some balance to the current accusations, absolutely.

Do I believe the Russians interfered in our election? Yes, certainly. Do I believe they do it all the time as do many other countries and as we do in many other countries as well? Yes, this goes on all the time, in almost every election almost everywhere in the world.

Yes, it's something to get upset about. It's something to be aware of, and the public should definitely understand that this is going on so they can factor it into their decisions. But is it something that started with Trump and is he to blame for it? No way. It's been going on for a long time now and it's never going to stop. Attempting to mitigate the effects is fine. Calling it out is fine too. But blaming Trump is a bit over the top.

Editing to add: Not saying anyone here is blaming Trump, but that is definitely the way things in the media often slant, as if Trump was in cahoots with the Russians. Like Ted Kennedy. It's funny how Republicans keep getting blamed for things Democrats have already actually done.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2016, 11:03:36 PM by cherrypoptart »

Fenring

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Re: Comrade Trump and Russian insurgent hackers
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2016, 11:50:05 PM »
I don't see this topic being discussed anywhere - does everybody here believe that Russia interfering in US elections, to the point of possibly affecting the outcome, is really not worthy of discussion?

I do not believe it's worthy of discussion, no. Even if forces within Russia wanted Trump to win - so what? Another country can have whatever opinion it wants, and if it releases true facts that sway the vote then so be it. Other countries may have opinions and print material stating that opinion. The U.S. interferes with foreign elections more than anything Russia ever dreamt of, so this accusation is rather rich. As cherry pointed out, they'd be singing a different tune had Russia helped Hillary instead of allegedly helping Trump.

By the way, there are potentially valid reasons for a country like Russia to actively promote one candidate over another, which can include them legitimately thinking it will advantage both sides to have that candidate in power. If Russia believed Hillary would only take actions to their detriment and harm relations, while Trump would cooperate with them and improve relations, then duh, they'd want Trump. It doesn't have to be nefarious, and in fact the only reason it even sounds nefarious is because of the anti-Russia propaganda that's been spewed out for the past few years trying to make it look like they're taking over the world.

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From the Washington Post: Secret CIA assessment says Russia was trying to help Trump win White House

Whatever respect I may lack for Trump, I have less than zero respect for anything the CIA says.

D.W.

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Re: Comrade Trump and Russian insurgent hackers
« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2016, 12:06:27 AM »
White I agree with most of what you said Fenring, my worry, is that Russia feels Trump will be a weak or easily manipulated leader in comparison.  I hope your version, that they just prefer someone more open minded / amicable turns out to be true.

If the Russians made stuff up, I'll get more upset.   If they just aired dirty laundry, I don't blame them.   I gained more information.  I got to see which Russia favored.  I've got a good idea why they do.  I got to see how "my party" handles embarrassing reveals.

While I wouldn't say they did us a favor,  after all we got Trump instead, (though we can't give them all or even most of the credit) they did make it harder to delude ourselves.

I voted for my choice despite my candidates flaws.  If others didn't then the fault lies in the candidates and the voters.  Saying they/we got manipulated by the wrong people doesn't breed sympathy.

Fenring

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Re: Comrade Trump and Russian insurgent hackers
« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2016, 12:21:44 AM »
D.W., I didn't just like your post because you liked mine, but rather I do share your concern that they may have wanted Trump because they thought he'd be easy to mess with. It's worth keeping in mind, but my main objection is to the automatic conclusion that anything to do with Russia must be a James Bond villain plot. Whether Russia helped or not, the DNC got exactly what it deserved this election cycle.

Greg Davidson

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Re: Comrade Trump and Russian insurgent hackers
« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2016, 01:52:52 AM »
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What if the extent of their interference was that they were involved with the DNC hacks but ultimately all they revealed was the real emails?

That's all the Watergate burglary was - just breaking in to a campaign headquarters to get real documents out there.

There is also the question of why an authoritarian regime that is no friend to the US or American values might strongly prefer a President Trump to a President Clinton.

TheDeamon

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Re: Comrade Trump and Russian insurgent hackers
« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2016, 04:12:57 AM »
TheDeamon - the contention is not that Russians connected to the government hacked the voting process itself, but that they were involved in targeted propaganda with the aim of affecting the election outcome.

That foreign governments seek out, and sometimes find ways to insert themselves into the electoral process of other nations is hardly shocking. That other governments would be attempting to do so with what arguably still remains the singularly most powerful nation on the planet is almost a given.

So it's about on par with the yawn I gave in response to many, if not most, of the Snowden leaks regarding the U.S. performing intelligence gathering on foreign nationals and our own allies. Officially, everyone involved had to denounce the practice. Unofficially they were being a bit smug over the U.S. getting caught with its pants down, but otherwise unsurprised. What happened isn't anything different from operations they have underway themselves, just with varying degrees of success, due to resource disparities. If you don't think the French, Brits, and Germans are spying on the United States, and also trying to influence our internal politics, you're incredibly naive. 

Also unofficially, it probably triggered some "thank yous" in screwed up international terms, as it is a high-order compliment within that realm to discover someone considers you to be "worth spying on." So call it a "reverse stalker effect" in this case. In the international scene, you WANT a legion of "stalkers," however at the same time, you don't want to see them either, so obviously, when ones gets caught out, you naturally denounce them and call them creepy in public. You then send them a gift card later.  ;)

The only difference is this time the Russians were "nearly" caught in the act, and we're seeing a more overt display of their involvement as a consequence. So yes, the apathetic response is generally because for anyone who bothers to pay much attention to the realm of government spooks it basically is literally "business as usual."

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That all the US intelligence agencies basically agree on the actions that took place, but seemingly only disagree on the degree of certainty with which they can link the actions directly to the Kremlin, is pretty convincing.

It's no longer a question of what they will find - they have already found sufficient evidence to characterize the conclusions with the term "high confidence", which is spook speak for "pretty darned sure", supposedly.

Because U.S. Intelligence has such a sterling record on getting things right. Like Bill Clinton going on record in 1998 convinced there were WMD's in Iraq? An intelligence position that remained in place clear through the 2003 invasion, even though the Intel community was starting to question the veracity of their long held estimates by then? It wasn't that the Bush(43) Admin was "cherry picking" data, they were working off of over 12 years worth of Intel Data built up during the Clinton and Bush(41) Administrations. Both prior administration had "high confidence" that there were WMD's in Iraq. It's the entire justification for Iraq having been under sanctions and subject to UN led inspections.

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So, US intelligence agencies as a group confidently believe that an adversarial foreign power at the very least attempted to negatively affect the electoral chances of a major party candidate for president (not to mention the downstream effects) yet strangely, almost no US citizens on this board give this more than a passing yawn..?  Your electoral system was just attacked by a foreign power - basically, the underpinning of your whole democracy has been attacked - and nobody can muster even a peep of resistance?

See above, the Intel Community having "high confidence" in something still doesn't mean something is true. And even if it is, it isn't news to the informed, so it doesn't really change anything other than knowing that the person Russia wanted to win seems to have won the election.

But Russia providing shadowy assistance still isn't the same thing as claiming the Trump Campaign was knowingly coordinating with the Russians.

And even going back to the infamous Trump quote where he "spoke to the Russians" his request was for an "after the fact" thing, regarding emails that we've been told no longer existed as of the time Trump made the statement. Meaning that if the Russians did produce them(they didn't), that they had hacked the servers in question months/years before... Not because Donald Trump asked them to.

...unless of course you're going to claim that those e-mails do still exist and that the Clinton's are holding them back, in defiance of court orders to produce them, because of (insert reason here). In which case I think ANOTHER discussion is perhaps in order?
« Last Edit: December 13, 2016, 04:17:45 AM by TheDeamon »

TheDeamon

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Re: Comrade Trump and Russian insurgent hackers
« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2016, 04:26:03 AM »
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What if the extent of their interference was that they were involved with the DNC hacks but ultimately all they revealed was the real emails?

That's all the Watergate burglary was - just breaking in to a campaign headquarters to get real documents out there.

Watergate was "just news" until it was tied to President Nixon, at which point it became "NEWS." Likewise, Russian involvement in the electoral process is boring routine stuff until/unless someone can demonstrate that Donald Trump was actively and knowingly working with the Russians in order to get elected.

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There is also the question of why an authoritarian regime that is no friend to the US or American values might strongly prefer a President Trump to a President Clinton.

Hillary isn't Autoritarian?

Oh wait, she's authoritarian in ways you approve of, which makes it perfectly acceptable right?

Glad we cleared that up.  Yes, Trump seems to be authoritarian, and in ways that even concern me. But I also think the Constitution, if used properly, should do a decent job of curb-stomping most of the things Trump may try to get up to, and I think the Democrats are going to (ironically given the past 8 years) be very happy to start using those levers, with (hopefully) enough principled Republicans in congress to put the brakes on things.

Whereas the Hillary option had the Train continuing to roll on down the track without anyone going for the brakes in any meaningful way. As the status quo from the past 8 years would have continued.

Then again, looking at how some aspects of the left are doubling down on Pizza Gate, I'm not so sure the Democrats are going to turn to Constitutional principles as their preferred means of recourse, looks like they're fine with going authoritarian instead, the more they can let Trump get away with, the more they can potentially do once he leaves office and they get a Democrat in there.

cherrypoptart

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Re: Comrade Trump and Russian insurgent hackers
« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2016, 05:35:47 AM »
I think when Trump starts enforcing the laws as written, if he does that, it's going to LOOK authoritarian.  But it's not actually going to BE authoritarian. It's just going to feel that way in comparison to a President who decided to ignore so many laws along with, as decided by many unanimous decisions of the Supreme Court against him, the Constitution itself.

rightleft22

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Re: Comrade Trump and Russian insurgent hackers
« Reply #12 on: December 13, 2016, 09:50:14 AM »
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What if the extent of their interference was that they were involved with the DNC hacks but ultimately all they revealed was the real emails?
Should we be mad that we learned the truth about the Democrats, how they think and operate?
What might we have learned if republican emails were hacked and leaked?  Should we be mad that they were not hacked?

Personally I view hacking someone’s emails no different than someone breaking into a home or company and stealing files.
Yes I know that the Hillary situation is different as her emails should have been part of the government archive and had she done that likely protected... in that case would hacking them have been a act of espionage???

I am surprised by the lack of concern there appears to be about the issue of hacking in general and hope a precedence hasn’t been created.

If someone hacked into your email account and used them to embarrass you or some such do you have legal recourse or is this fair game now?   

D.W.

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Re: Comrade Trump and Russian insurgent hackers
« Reply #13 on: December 13, 2016, 09:51:38 AM »
Psssst.  They didn't get HER email.

D.W.

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Re: Comrade Trump and Russian insurgent hackers
« Reply #14 on: December 13, 2016, 09:58:46 AM »
For me, cyber security is not a trivial matter.  However, when something like this DOES get out; and "my side" decides to respond by ONLY pointing fingers at the perpetrator instead of addressing the info that got out, I get upset.

Had the Clinton campaign and the DNC owned up to the info that got out, explained it, apologized where appropriate and taken steps to reassure the public this would not happen again, then I would have focused on Russia.

But they didn't.  They stonewalled (predictable) and somehow thought that the shock that a foreign government may try to put their thumb on the scales of power could be leveraged into a tool to promote turnout or suppress those on the fence regarding Trump.  That "tactic" was so ridiculously out of touch with the public that I would tend to agree with Fenring.  That is if it wasn't for the boobie prize we got as a communal punishment for the DNC and HRC treating us like idiots.  I suppose, in a way, they got their wish.  When taken together as a nation, we apparently are.

Seriati

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Re: Comrade Trump and Russian insurgent hackers
« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2016, 10:04:42 AM »
I don't see this topic being discussed anywhere - does everybody here believe that Russia interfering in US elections, to the point of possibly affecting the outcome, is really not worthy of discussion?

I do think you inadvertently identified a topic worthy of discussion.  Why is the constant spin to write this up as Russian interference in the US election?  Is there any evidence that Russians voted illegally?  That they hacked any voting machines?  That directly modified any votes?  Or did they hack and release apparently true statements made by senior DNC officials that were incompatible with what the voters actually want in government?  Is the complaint really that the Russian's interfered in an election by telling the truth?  Doesn't that sound like a very dangerous version of propaganda or even bordering on the fake news that I'm hearing so many concerns about?

Honestly, this "story" could be spun a thousand ways, why the uniform misleading angle?

I also find it interesting that every national Democratic campaign in recent memory has been connected to illegal campaign donations from China and other foreign parties, in some cases directly and in others through shady bundlers but that this is somehow a larger issue.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2016, 10:13:45 AM by Seriati »

rightleft22

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Re: Comrade Trump and Russian insurgent hackers
« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2016, 10:07:40 AM »
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For me, cyber security is not a trivial matter.  However, when something like this DOES get out; and "my side" decides to respond by ONLY pointing fingers at the perpetrator instead of addressing the info that got out, I get upset.
Just curious but if someone stole you emails and then use them against you would you attempt to explain them or would you go after those that stole them?

My suspension is that the email communication would likely be taken out of context to make you look as bad as possible and  that the more you tried to explain them the deeper the hole you dig for your self. I think its a no win.

Seriati

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Re: Comrade Trump and Russian insurgent hackers
« Reply #17 on: December 13, 2016, 10:12:54 AM »
Rightleft22, how do you think that's any different than what happens in every litigation?  Email records are specifically discoverable (other than those with an immunity like attorney client communications) and any reasonable sized litigation thousands upon thousands of emails are in fact turned over to the other side.  There's no reasonable expectation of privacy on email for most of us.

Greg Davidson

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Re: Comrade Trump and Russian insurgent hackers
« Reply #18 on: December 13, 2016, 10:13:40 AM »
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Hillary isn't Autoritarian?

Oh wait, she's authoritarian in ways you approve of, which makes it perfectly acceptable right?

I don't think that word means what you think it does. Authoritarian statements are like saying that you are going to direct prosecutors to investigate an opposition candidate and then you will lock her up because you know she is guilty. That is what Trump said.  For any other country in the world, we would not be having a debate over whether or not that was authoritarian. 

Can you show me an example of Hillary Clinton being similarly authoritarian?

The most concerning aspect of the support for Trump is the extremes to which his supporters could go. As the President-elect himself has said, he could shoot somebody in the street and still be supported. At what point do you start to get concerned? Would it take someone actually getting shot in the street? or even then, would that be okay if the person was characterized as a thug or an extremist?


rightleft22

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Re: Comrade Trump and Russian insurgent hackers
« Reply #19 on: December 13, 2016, 10:15:05 AM »
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Honestly, this "story" could be spun a thousand ways, why the uniform misleading angel?

I also find it interesting that every national Democratic campaign in recent memory has been connected to illegal campaign donations from China and other foreign parties, in some cases directly and in others through shady bundlers but that this is somehow a larger issue.

Why is this type of argument a defense and justification of other criminal activity? This type of argument seems to be the go to of late when trying to discuss serious matters.  Are you saying you can't hold someone accountable because someone else did something wrong?



Seriati

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Re: Comrade Trump and Russian insurgent hackers
« Reply #20 on: December 13, 2016, 10:17:01 AM »
Greg, an authoritarian statement is saying you don't need to involve the only legitimate law making authority in government because you have a pen and phone, or choosing to act unilaterally through executive orders.  How can anyone in good faith disagree that when a President acts like a King its not authoritarian?

Were going to have to disagree on the prosecution angle.  I don't think he was claiming that he was going to abuse any discretion in saying he'd prosecute her, because I don't there is any question that if she was someone other than Hillary Clinton she would have been prosecuted.  She only avoided prosecution because apparently some people are above the law. 

Seriati

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Re: Comrade Trump and Russian insurgent hackers
« Reply #21 on: December 13, 2016, 10:19:31 AM »
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Honestly, this "story" could be spun a thousand ways, why the uniform misleading angel?

I also find it interesting that every national Democratic campaign in recent memory has been connected to illegal campaign donations from China and other foreign parties, in some cases directly and in others through shady bundlers but that this is somehow a larger issue.

Why is this type of argument a defense and justification of other criminal activity? This type of argument seems to be the go to of late when trying to discuss serious matters.  Are you saying you can't hold someone accountable because someone else did something wrong?

And you want to hold Trump "accountable" because someone else the "Russians" did something wrong?  How would that work exactly.  Connect the dots for me, show what specifically they did and specifically how it manipulated the election.  Changing people's minds about who to vote for is not a legitimate harm, particularly not when they changed their minds because they were exposed to more truth than you think they should have seen.

My point was simple, people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.  Kids learn that but apparently Democrats don't.

rightleft22

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Re: Comrade Trump and Russian insurgent hackers
« Reply #22 on: December 13, 2016, 10:21:09 AM »
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Rightleft22, how do you think that's any different than what happens in every litigation?  Email records are specifically discoverable (other than those with an immunity like attorney client communications) and any reasonable sized litigation thousands upon thousands of emails are in fact turned over to the other side.  There's no reasonable expectation of privacy on email for most of us.

The difference is in litigation emails are handed over.  The question wasn’t about litigation it was about hacking

The question was what you would do if you were hacked and the emails used to damage you.
If I broke into your home and stole personal papers would that be different then if I hacked them?

What is it ok to hack someone? Is our acceptance the reason there is not reasonable expectation of privacy?

D.W.

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Re: Comrade Trump and Russian insurgent hackers
« Reply #23 on: December 13, 2016, 10:25:29 AM »
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I do think you inadvertently identified a topic worthy of discussion.  Why is the constant spin to write this up as Russian interference in the US election?  Is there any evidence that Russians voted illegally?  That they hacked any voting machines?  That directly modified any votes?  Or did they hack and release apparently true statements made by senior DNC officials that were incompatible with what the voters actually want in government?  Is the complaint really that the Russian's interfered in an election by telling the truth?  Doesn't that sound like a very dangerous version of propaganda or even bordering on the fake news that I'm hearing so many concerns about?
They DID interfere Seriati.  AFAIK they did no tampering with actual votes.  That is not the point, nor is it the allegation.

It IS a dangerous form of propaganda, but it’s one we’ve been manufacturing and spoon feeding to each other for ages.  Now MAYBE you believe they did us a favor and that particular flavor of BS will be taken off the menu.  I wouldn’t hold my breath.  (well, other than when saying Ahh for the next spoonful.)  Now maybe you believe the Russian hackers ONLY got into Democrat info.  Or maybe you believe that the Republicans that got hacked had nothing worth revealing.  I may laugh at you, but it’s at least a theory that is consistent with the events.  So yes, the complaint really is that the Russians interfered by telling the truth.

Write them a thank you note if you want, but don’t try to pretend for an instant that it wasn’t interference.

Fenring

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Re: Comrade Trump and Russian insurgent hackers
« Reply #24 on: December 13, 2016, 10:27:32 AM »
Can you show me an example of Hillary Clinton being similarly authoritarian?

She was very clever to avoid ever stating the authoritarian intent herself, but rather tended to couch her language in "I support President Obama's policies and will continue them." We can include in this list domestic mass surveillance, metadata collection, drone strikes, and regime change. We can add to this list an item that Hillary was arguing for, the 'no-fly zone' in Syria. Perhaps you'd prefer to distinguish between domestically authoritarian and hawkish/aggressive in foreign affairs, in which case I would argue that the domestic side of foreign affairs is using fear to get the people behind foreign policy. It has been argued at length how Trump does this with regard to the Muslim people, but not mentioned nearly enough that Hillary does this with regard to Russia, and also the ruler of any regime she would like to topple. I would count the politics of fear as being high up on the checklist of authoritarian tactics.

D.W.

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Re: Comrade Trump and Russian insurgent hackers
« Reply #25 on: December 13, 2016, 10:34:36 AM »
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For me, cyber security is not a trivial matter.  However, when something like this DOES get out; and "my side" decides to respond by ONLY pointing fingers at the perpetrator instead of addressing the info that got out, I get upset.
Just curious but if someone stole you emails and then use them against you would you attempt to explain them or would you go after those that stole them?

My suspension is that the email communication would likely be taken out of context to make you look as bad as possible and  that the more you tried to explain them the deeper the hole you dig for your self. I think its a no win.
I would absolutely be doing damage control.  I'd likely ALSO, let others go after the perpetrator.   I mean, it would make a fun "Taken" style revenge movie.  But whining about who exposed all the things they revealed is childish. 

"You were fine being my friend when you didn't KNOW all the weird *censored* I was into.  It's SoAndSo's fault you dont' want to talk to me now!"

"Umm, no dude, it's because A:  You are into that weird *censored*. B:  You hid it and specifically said you were against that weird *censored*.  And C:  You still refuse to explain why, or apologize about lying to us."

"But you obviously didn't WANT to know!  I was doing you a favor!  Waaaaaah"

And sometimes you can't win.  But you CAN appologize and say, "Yes, I'm not perfect.  Even taking these flaws into account, (blah blah blah)."

rightleft22

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Re: Comrade Trump and Russian insurgent hackers
« Reply #26 on: December 13, 2016, 10:38:44 AM »
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And you want to hold Trump "accountable" because someone else the "Russians" did something wrong?  How would that work exactly.  Connect the dots for me, show what specifically they did and specifically how it manipulated the election.  Changing people's minds about who to vote for is not a legitimate harm, particularly not when they changed their minds because they were exposed to more truth than you think they should have seen.

I didn’t say anything about Trump or holding him accountable.
I was talking about the tactic of excusing behavior because of someone else’s bad behavior.  Something most of us try a children to do which most parents put an end to pretty quick. john bad behavior does not excuse mine.

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My point was simple, people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.  Kids learn that but apparently Democrats don't.

If you are excusing past or future wrong doing because of past and future wrong doing of others i'm saying such justification and arguments are empty and keep us from dealing with the issues at hand.

rightleft22

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Re: Comrade Trump and Russian insurgent hackers
« Reply #27 on: December 13, 2016, 10:40:51 AM »
Times have really changed. It really is fascinating that such allegations don’t appear to bother the American people enough to do anything about them.

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The US intelligence community has officially pinned recent cybersecurity attacks on Russia. It also claimed that whistleblower sites that published the emails like DCLeaks.com and WikiLeaks were also connected to Russia. The report concluded that only, “Russia’s senior most officials could have authorized these activities.”

The recent disclosures of alleged hacked e-mails on sites like DCLeaks.com and WikiLeaks and by the Guccifer 2.0 online persona are consistent with the methods and motivations of Russian-directed efforts…These thefts and disclosures are intended to interfere with the US election process,” according to the joint statement from the Department of Homeland Security and Office of the Director of National Intelligence on Election Security

D.W.

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Re: Comrade Trump and Russian insurgent hackers
« Reply #28 on: December 13, 2016, 10:43:33 AM »
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And you want to hold Trump "accountable" because someone else the "Russians" did something wrong? 
Has ANYONE (credible or anyone here) suggested this? 

Fenring

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Re: Comrade Trump and Russian insurgent hackers
« Reply #29 on: December 13, 2016, 10:44:30 AM »
If you are excusing past or future wrong doing because of past and future wrong doing of others i'm saying such justification and arguments are empty and keep us from dealing with the issues at hand.

This is the opposite of what's helpful. Over-focus on present ills without a sight to the general pattern is the trap laid out for you to occupy your attention perpetually. "Look at this! Hey, look what he did! Over there, a scandal!" Noting a pattern of wrongs done by all parties involved is the first step in recognizing that one's "side" is no more righteous than the other, and that people on both sides are just being played. Maybe one side might be marginally less wrong than the other, but that's not of great relevance. Both sides benefit from being able to truthfully claim the other side is doing wrong things. "My side is in the wrong too" is far more helpful to society than "but let's not lose focus on what the other guys just did!" Even better would be to stop being on either side. Better yet would be to recognize that the sides are mostly fake in the first place. Orwell is ever our teacher.

TheDrake

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Re: Comrade Trump and Russian insurgent hackers
« Reply #30 on: December 13, 2016, 10:46:32 AM »
I haven't read the whole thread, but has anyone addressed the source of this information? WaPo cites "unnamed senior officials", IIRC. I'm personally ignoring anything attributed to unnamed sources, whether it comes from WaPo, NYT, or Breitbart.

TheDeamon

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Re: Comrade Trump and Russian insurgent hackers
« Reply #31 on: December 13, 2016, 11:04:07 AM »
Times have really changed. It really is fascinating that such allegations don’t appear to bother the American people enough to do anything about them.

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The US intelligence community has officially pinned recent cybersecurity attacks on Russia. It also claimed that whistleblower sites that published the emails like DCLeaks.com and WikiLeaks were also connected to Russia. The report concluded that only, “Russia’s senior most officials could have authorized these activities.”

The recent disclosures of alleged hacked e-mails on sites like DCLeaks.com and WikiLeaks and by the Guccifer 2.0 online persona are consistent with the methods and motivations of Russian-directed efforts…These thefts and disclosures are intended to interfere with the US election process,” according to the joint statement from the Department of Homeland Security and Office of the Director of National Intelligence on Election Security

Says the likely political appointees/high level government bureaucrat currently beholden to Democrat political appointees. The claim may be valid, or it may be politically motivated. Intelligence getting manipulated for political gains is hardly new.

D.W.

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Re: Comrade Trump and Russian insurgent hackers
« Reply #32 on: December 13, 2016, 11:16:17 AM »
Just as a rejection of facts and data can be politically advantageous.   ::)

TheDeamon

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Re: Comrade Trump and Russian insurgent hackers
« Reply #33 on: December 13, 2016, 11:17:49 AM »
I haven't read the whole thread, but has anyone addressed the source of this information? WaPo cites "unnamed senior officials", IIRC. I'm personally ignoring anything attributed to unnamed sources, whether it comes from WaPo, NYT, or Breitbart.

Any more, you have to be careful even when it does name a source. "Source laundering" is now a popular pass time in the press, which makes the "Fake news" furor even more hilarious in very pathetic ways.

Paper or Website A cites "unnamed sources" which in many cases may turn out to be a trending post in social media by some random person who may cite an "anonymous source" of their own. Then Paper or Website B comes along and cites Paper/Website A as a source. At which point you often start seeing the big boys start citing Paper/Website B. Sometimes at this point, you'll also sometimes see Paper/Website A and/or their social media source then cite the people at Step C or later as "further proof" of their claim.

Sad thing is you can see academia doing comparable things in some fields, where you have certain people pushing out peer reviewed literature where they self-cite, or tend to only cite other people in the field who incidentally, also happen to (frequently) cite them. So when Person A cites Person B citing Person A, it isn't technically "a self-citation," although for all practical purposes, it is. Luckily, the academic field tends to require at least some degree of rigor, so they can't get too outrageous in their mutual self-referential marathons, but they still happen all the same.

NobleHunter

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Re: Comrade Trump and Russian insurgent hackers
« Reply #34 on: December 13, 2016, 11:21:23 AM »
Times have really changed. It really is fascinating that such allegations don’t appear to bother the American people enough to do anything about them.

Quote
The US intelligence community has officially pinned recent cybersecurity attacks on Russia. It also claimed that whistleblower sites that published the emails like DCLeaks.com and WikiLeaks were also connected to Russia. The report concluded that only, “Russia’s senior most officials could have authorized these activities.”

The recent disclosures of alleged hacked e-mails on sites like DCLeaks.com and WikiLeaks and by the Guccifer 2.0 online persona are consistent with the methods and motivations of Russian-directed efforts…These thefts and disclosures are intended to interfere with the US election process,” according to the joint statement from the Department of Homeland Security and Office of the Director of National Intelligence on Election Security

Says the likely political appointees/high level government bureaucrat currently beholden to Democrat political appointees. The claim may be valid, or it may be politically motivated. Intelligence getting manipulated for political gains is hardly new.
So they set themselves up to lose their jobs when the new administration comes in? The time to drop politically sensitive bombshells is before the election, not after. That these allegations could stop Trump from becoming President is too much of a longshot for anyone to blatantly fabricate evidence.

TheDeamon

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Re: Comrade Trump and Russian insurgent hackers
« Reply #35 on: December 13, 2016, 11:21:35 AM »
Just as a rejection of facts and data can be politically advantageous.   ::)

Exactly, so when Trump enters office, if they suddenly go quiet, or reverse their estimate of what was going on. You'll be left wondering which take was the correct one.

Although I'm more generally operating on the theory that from everything I'm seeing, I don't think the Russians really WANTED a Republican in Office. I think they'd prefer a Democrat, or even better, Bernie Sanders. The "problem" they had was the Democrats nominated Hillary Clinton, and they REALLY DID NOT WANT her as President.

So now, does the context of things change if it turns out many of their electoral manipulations were intended to help Bernie rather than Trump?

TheDeamon

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Re: Comrade Trump and Russian insurgent hackers
« Reply #36 on: December 13, 2016, 11:30:41 AM »
Says the likely political appointees/high level government bureaucrat currently beholden to Democrat political appointees. The claim may be valid, or it may be politically motivated. Intelligence getting manipulated for political gains is hardly new.
So they set themselves up to lose their jobs when the new administration comes in? The time to drop politically sensitive bombshells is before the election, not after. That these allegations could stop Trump from becoming President is too much of a longshot for anyone to blatantly fabricate evidence.

The political appointees, of which I'm sure a number were involved, likely don't care. If they served with/under Obama they're virtually guaranteed to be gone once Trump comes in anyway.

The government bureaucrat can simply plead their case that they were operating under orders, and plea for mercy. Not that much mercy would be necessary, as they enjoy a great deal of protection under Federal Law, so they probably couldn't get fired for that anyhow. Of course, that then creates a circular reasoning loop, since that in turn applies to their present situation under Obama too.

I'm expecting a Bernie Sanders//Anti-Hillary angle is going to start playing out on the Russian Activities as time goes on, and I'm inclined to think they're the more likely explanations.

Russia knew Hillary was a serious candidate this cycle, and they also knew they didn't want her in Office. Which runs in line with some of their hacking starting as early as 2015(if not sooner). It also ties into many of the information they obtained dating to prior to Bernie dropping from the race as a viable candidate.

Wikileaks and DCLeaks are different critters, although with WikiLeaks we know Assange shares a very stron Anti-Hillary bend just like the Russians do, although he may be apolitical enough to care less about Trump or Bernie, which is why he waited until later to release much of it. Although he may have been coordinating with people in Russia as to timing on that.

But it goes back to being Anti-Hillary rather than Pro-Trump.

TheDeamon

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Re: Comrade Trump and Russian insurgent hackers
« Reply #37 on: December 13, 2016, 11:36:17 AM »
The government bureaucrat can simply plead their case that they were operating under orders, and plea for mercy. Not that much mercy would be necessary, as they enjoy a great deal of protection under Federal Law, so they probably couldn't get fired for that anyhow. Of course, that then creates a circular reasoning loop, since that in turn applies to their present situation under Obama too.

As I deliberately self-cite here, and make a new post, rather than edit as I know at least two of you are likely to be reading/responding as I type this.

It should also be pointed that the "Anti-Hillary" and possibly "Pro-Bernie" efforts also are in line with the very generic leaks we've heard about so far regarding "Russian Interference" "that helped Trump win." The sources being cited just say that the Intelligence services agree the Russians interfered, they say nothing as to what their assessment was as to the intent of their involvement was.

Which goes back to spin and counter-spin. While Obama remains in office, he's going to downplay anything that deflects attention away from Trump. While the moment Trump enters office, his Administration will play up anything that deflects it away from him, and towards the Democrats instead.

Edit: Which isn't even touching on how odd it is to claim that the Russians were hacking Hillary's servers in 2015 to help Donald Trump win the election in 2016 when practically nobody believed he was going to survive the 2016 Primaries during 2015.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2016, 11:39:01 AM by TheDeamon »

NobleHunter

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Re: Comrade Trump and Russian insurgent hackers
« Reply #38 on: December 13, 2016, 11:38:57 AM »
But why wait? If nothing else, it might have driven the emails back out of the news.

From an a-partisan position, anti-Clinton instead of pro-Trump doesn't matter much. It's that the Russians may have had a strong influence on the election.

TheDeamon

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Re: Comrade Trump and Russian insurgent hackers
« Reply #39 on: December 13, 2016, 11:43:30 AM »
But why wait? If nothing else, it might have driven the emails back out of the news.

From an a-partisan position, anti-Clinton instead of pro-Trump doesn't matter much. It's that the Russians may have had a strong influence on the election.

They were released/timed for effect. There were releases in the run up the DNC convention this year as well, which resulted in some scandals and resignations as well. Events that Pro-Bernie crowd were more than happy to jump on, just as Trump has done. Events that were, once again, instigated by Russian hackers. So the Bernie people need to look long and hard at what they were saying/doing this past summer too.

They failed to release enough in time to change the DNC Convention outcome(which they had to know was a long-shot at best anyhow), but they kept enough in reserve to help influence the final result in November, as can obviously be attested to now.

D.W.

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Re: Comrade Trump and Russian insurgent hackers
« Reply #40 on: December 13, 2016, 12:15:00 PM »
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Although I'm more generally operating on the theory that from everything I'm seeing, I don't think the Russians really WANTED a Republican in Office. I think they'd prefer a Democrat, or even better, Bernie Sanders. The "problem" they had was the Democrats nominated Hillary Clinton, and they REALLY DID NOT WANT her as President.
What they wanted was a weaker America.  One not united in a common cause with a government that runs smoothly towards a shared purpose.  So in that regard, I guess I agree they didn’t want a single party to control it all.  They wanted to make a mess.  Making us doubt the whole election system?  That’s the gift that keeps on giving…  I don’t think they wanted Trump specifically beyond the optics that he may be seen as a pawn.  Not that he IS a pawn, but that some will believe that.  It sows more chaos.  Lets them worry less about us, and do their own thing.

We’ll be that judgmental scolding acquaintance who everyone know has a home life that is a total train wreck so they are ignored by all.

Fenring

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Re: Comrade Trump and Russian insurgent hackers
« Reply #41 on: December 13, 2016, 12:18:53 PM »
What they wanted was a weaker America.  One not united in a common cause with a government that runs smoothly towards a shared purpose.

This "they" is the Russians? That's some nefarious scheme, since that's exactly the same goal America's own political parties have. Another reason to send Russia a thank-you note for solidarity with American principles?

D.W.

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Re: Comrade Trump and Russian insurgent hackers
« Reply #42 on: December 13, 2016, 12:26:19 PM »
Yes Fenring
It's different when WE do it!    :)

Again, I'm OK with people thinking we should thank Russia for shining a light on what should have been obvious to everyone all along.  I won't, but I get it.

And despite utilizing the exact same tactics.  I don't believe either party is trying to weaken our nation.  They try to weaken each other's party so that they can (in their opinion) strengthen the nation by getting the opposition out of the way.

If the tactics can change because of outside tampering, I guess that's cool?  The goal of that tampering however is not the same.

Fenring

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Re: Comrade Trump and Russian insurgent hackers
« Reply #43 on: December 13, 2016, 12:32:09 PM »
And despite utilizing the exact same tactics.  I don't believe either party is trying to weaken our nation.  They try to weaken each other's party so that they can (in their opinion) strengthen the nation by getting the opposition out of the way.

Stonewalling each other in policy while privately both sides condone the same illicit foreign activities? Yeah, I'd call that weakening the nation. At least, it's weakened as a republic. Maybe it's strengthened by some other criteria that favor certain private interests.

D.W.

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Re: Comrade Trump and Russian insurgent hackers
« Reply #44 on: December 13, 2016, 01:07:14 PM »
Yes but our own internal propaganda doesn't see it that way.  Neither side believes they are TRYING to weaken the nation.  They can comfortably blame the other side's opposition for any negative effects.

When it's an outsider... we don't have that lie to fall back on.

TheDrake

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Re: Comrade Trump and Russian insurgent hackers
« Reply #45 on: December 13, 2016, 02:01:46 PM »
Let's not forget, WaPo also published a "story" about hundreds of sites claiming they were Russian pawns or collaborators propagating false news. They had a single source, more or less, and they failed to contact anyone at the outlets on the list for comment, from what it seems. They cited this one group in particular as an authority from their tone, despite the fact that everyone involved was anonymous.

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/features/washington-post-blacklist-story-is-shameful-disgusting-w452543

Seriati

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Re: Comrade Trump and Russian insurgent hackers
« Reply #46 on: December 13, 2016, 02:28:58 PM »
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I do think you inadvertently identified a topic worthy of discussion.  Why is the constant spin to write this up as Russian interference in the US election?  Is there any evidence that Russians voted illegally?  That they hacked any voting machines?  That directly modified any votes?  Or did they hack and release apparently true statements made by senior DNC officials that were incompatible with what the voters actually want in government?  Is the complaint really that the Russian's interfered in an election by telling the truth?  Doesn't that sound like a very dangerous version of propaganda or even bordering on the fake news that I'm hearing so many concerns about?
They DID interfere Seriati.  AFAIK they did no tampering with actual votes.  That is not the point, nor is it the allegation.

Then honestly, what is the point?  Why bring it up as manipulation of the election if you are not trying to delegitimize the election itself.  If you believe we had an illegitimate election then explain the exact vector.  How did Russian hacking that revealed true statements create an illegitimate election?

If you want to hold the Russians accountable for hacking, I'm with you.  Go after them, file a diplomatic protest, instigate sanctions treat them like they were caught spying.  But if you want to have a local consequence of claiming that we didn't have a legitimate election then you have to explain how.

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It IS a dangerous form of propaganda, but it’s one we’ve been manufacturing and spoon feeding to each other for ages.  Now MAYBE you believe they did us a favor and that particular flavor of BS will be taken off the menu.  I wouldn’t hold my breath.  (well, other than when saying Ahh for the next spoonful.)  Now maybe you believe the Russian hackers ONLY got into Democrat info.  Or maybe you believe that the Republicans that got hacked had nothing worth revealing.  I may laugh at you, but it’s at least a theory that is consistent with the events.  So yes, the complaint really is that the Russians interfered by telling the truth.

What's interesting to me is the reaction you are having to the specific underlying facts here.  You are literally complaining because the DNC wasn't able to sell lies and confusion because their internal communications were leaked showing what they really were doing.  Normally, it connection with an election impacting hack, we'd be talking about a blackmail, or an illegal activity exposed, or direct voting manipulation, here, all we really got was a peak under the hood of Hillary's campaign.

I object to the connection you're trying to draw.  The media is being deliberately vague about HOW the Russians influenced the election, because when you get down to it, all they did was show us who the people on Hillary's campaign really are.

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Write them a thank you note if you want, but don’t try to pretend for an instant that it wasn’t interference.

Won't pretend it wasn't interference.  Don't understand why you think revealing the truth is more damaging than letting deception continue.

Also fascinating that you've foregone even trying to show there was a connection between "Russia" and say Wikileaks who did the releases.  Do you have some inside source that we are not privy too, or is it okay to just waive your hands at it and say "its obvious"?

As a separate matter, go after them for illegal hacking.

D.W.

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Re: Comrade Trump and Russian insurgent hackers
« Reply #47 on: December 13, 2016, 02:31:10 PM »
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Won't pretend it wasn't interference.  Don't understand why you think revealing the truth is more damaging than letting deception continue.
I haven't made that claim.

If you read a defense of the DNC in my post, all I can say is read it again.  Add in a little more nihilism and disgust for flavor.

D.W.

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Re: Comrade Trump and Russian insurgent hackers
« Reply #48 on: December 13, 2016, 02:54:27 PM »
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Then honestly, what is the point?  Why bring it up as manipulation of the election if you are not trying to delegitimize the election itself.  If you believe we had an illegitimate election then explain the exact vector.  How did Russian hacking that revealed true statements create an illegitimate election?
You would just ignore this issue?  I find that more than a little out of character for you. 

Also, I don't believe we had an illegitimate election.  I believe we had someone influencing naive voters (or non-voters) who didn't already know this stuff was going on.  That someone happened to be outside of our system.  Now, I've got A LOT of problems with our system.  But it is OURS.  We've set the rules and we get the results based on those rules.

I don't see Russia as doing us a favor by helping nudge our voters in the direction most advantageous to them.  Maybe that (us looking within and making changes) will be a side effect?  I'd doubt it though.

Fenring

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Re: Comrade Trump and Russian insurgent hackers
« Reply #49 on: December 13, 2016, 03:05:55 PM »
I don't see Russia as doing us a favor by helping nudge our voters in the direction most advantageous to them.  Maybe that (us looking within and making changes) will be a side effect?  I'd doubt it though.

The problem in question is, to cite programmer logic, actually a 'feature', which is that people can be swayed by all sorts of things, which may include Russia, pharmaceutical companies, the weather, the job market, viral memes, and maybe truth on occasion. If the issue is to help the people vet how to process information then Russia has nothing whatsoever to do with the problem, which is that information in the U.S. has become corrupted to the point of being white noise. And this has nothing to do with "fake news" sites but rather was a process that long preceded it. If people are swayed by things Russia puts into print then the best defence against that would be to create a landscape of honesty within America that could withstand pew pew attempts at disinformation. It is because the media landscape is so mired in sludge that various X factors can come to have weight in people's decision-making process. Right now there is ample incentive for groups like the DNC and media outlets to spread disinfo and lies, and so they will continue to do that. The problem is the system and mechanism for encouraging behaviors. If the result is bad the game rules are broken and need a patch. If Russia has actually made gains for themselves amidst all this chaos then bully for them. It's no different than parties within America do as well, whose motives are no more noble.