Author Topic: Star Wars: The Last Jedi  (Read 1267 times)

TheDrake

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
« Reply #50 on: December 26, 2017, 05:34:34 PM »
Isaac Asimov, once asked to explain the difference between science fiction and fantasy, replied that science fiction, given its grounding in science, is possible; fantasy, which has no grounding in reality, is not.

Does that make the Foundation series fantasy? Considering Asimov's mutant with a mind-control lute in the Foundation series.

http://asimov.wikia.com/wiki/The_Mule

Then you have to balance that against Clarke, who said that any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

But yes, point taken, Star Wars has never had a technological edge to it. Which makes it more like Dr Who than Star Trek on the Spectrum, but even the Doctor occasionally had to wave a spanner around even though it was preposterous. As did the characters on Farscape.

cherrypoptart

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
« Reply #51 on: December 26, 2017, 09:23:47 PM »
I love y'all's conversation and my take away is that it means this was a pretty deep movie if you really delve into it because nothing is quite as simple or obvious as it might seem on the surface. There is the whole Poe versus admiral thing and I see good points on both sides. I think that's actually what they were going for, trying to show how so many people can be doing what they know to be right but it not always working out the way any of them expect or hope. Kind of the fog of war a little bit there. That goes for Luke too in a different way with his Jedi Academy with the Force itself acting against him by basically possessing Ren and turning him evil to thwart Luke using the Force to do so much good and then as Ren becomes too powerful Snoke notes that Rey is apparently the champion the Force has chosen to imbue with the power to challenge and possibly defeat him. One might expect that if she failed and died the Force would just find another champion until it can balance things out again perhaps preferably by having both sides kill each other. I took "The Force Awakens" to mean that it was becoming almost conscious like an AI because when there is too much imbalance in it it's like its switch is turned on or something and that's when really weird things start happening like Rey being able to pick up a light saber for the first time in her life and beat a ... well he wasn't a Sith lord but whatever he was he should have been a lot stronger than Rey and if the Force itself wasn't possessing her he would have easily one-shotted her like he could do to everyone else.

Fenring

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
« Reply #52 on: December 26, 2017, 09:47:11 PM »
I took "The Force Awakens" to mean that it was becoming almost conscious like an AI

That's a cool idea, and I would be flabbergasted to learn that they actually had that in mind when making Ep 7.

Seriati

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
« Reply #53 on: December 27, 2017, 03:16:35 PM »
Seriati, the huge difference in tone in the strategic planning here vs the original trilogy is palpable. What we're used to from before is the that Rebels, unlike the Imperials, confer and work together on problems, and no one is too small to contribute. It's the exact opposite of a "you don't need to know" club, where even Luke, the new guy, is allowed to contribute his input on the attack on the Death Star.

I get the confusion.  When we followed Luke we sat in on what was the equivalent of the briefing to the flight group and/or the commanders.  You'll note, the strategy was already set before we got to those meetings, and what they were doing was passing down orders and setting tactics.  You never saw Luke upbraid Ackbar on his bridge, heck we were never even on his bridge for a strategic or tactical planning session.  The closest we had to Poe's disobeying a direct order, was Lando convincing Ackbar not to withdraw in the face of the Death Star's shields, and you'll note it was still Ackbar's call.  The rebels had committed as a strategic matter to an all out attack because it was the only chance to stop that Death Star from being build or else it's very likely they might have withdrawn.

Did we ever sit in on a command level discussion?  Mon Mothma to Ackbar?  We didn't see them talk with Han or Lando about their roles and their promotions.  Why?  Cause our characters weren't part of the strategic command (other than possibly Leia, but that was unclear).

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It's not just a cold chain of command, but a group of people who care about each other. They do need to follow orders, but they don't have 'superiors' in the sense of anyone being better than anyone else.

I think  you misviewed what you saw.  There were clear lines of authority, "superiors" doesn't have anything to do with individual self worth in a military sense.  It's about role and function in tactical and strategic situations.

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Keeping a squadron commander in the dark when it's his job to protect the fleet is simply ridiculous.

I'm going to dispute this.  Poe was - at best - the fighter squadron commander for the fleet.  Where were the fighters at this point in time?  In little bits and pieces spread behind the cruiser.  He was quite actually the most senior combat officer without any role in fleet defense at that moment.  Do you think they should have called in the officers of their ground forces soldiers to brief them on starship matters as well?

I get it he's a hero and he's a character we're following in the movie.  If that were enough to be involved in every decision why aren't you upset with Finn not being consulted? 

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Obvious someone like him (or Wedge, previously) has the field authority to implement plans of action that he authorizes, and in order for him to do this efficiently he needs to be in the loop for command-level decisions; otherwise his tactics will be ill-aimed.

When his squadron is called to action I'm willing to bet he is in the loop.  Not clear why you'd expect him to be - particularly after demotion - in combat matters outside of his command, specialty or competence. 

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In the bombing run he defiantly disobeyed orders, and that speaks to his character, but regardless of how rebellious he is (and we can see that Leia sees Han in him) he's still a top-level instrument of their defense and keeping him *totally* in the dark makes no sense other than to fool the audience. It's a cheat, and in-universe makes her come off as a total moron. An admiral doesn't answer to a commander, but only a fool gives their lieutenants the wrong impression of their tactical situation.

It is literally standard operating procedure to keep plans limited to those who need to know.  Poe did not need to know and was specifically in the dog house at that time.  His exercise of initiative literally just had a consequence.

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As far as "she's an admiral" and keeping her cards close to her chest, when those cards consist of a tech never seen in a film before it may as well have been Gandalf teleporting in and waving a wand. Inventing magical technology that's kept from everyone and used as a "surprise" to save the day is bad story writing.

This is a fairer point.  Cloaks hadn't been canon in the movies previously.  Of course the entire tracking system was similarly a surprise (and the moronic idea that any military, even one as incompetent as the first order, would only have one tracking device running is just silly -particularly as there are 3 ships being followed, and make it so that a single control box takes the system down is just bad planning, might as well have added a self destruct button).

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As a side note, I think part of the point of Solo and Calrissian being Generals in Jedi isn't so much that they were promoted, as they needed to have that rank to accord them to authority to match their skills. It was less of a military hierarchy and more of a way of recognizing that they were valuable and needed some official standing to demonstrate that.

It literally was done so they would have the rank to command the task forces they were leading.  Yes it was a recognition of their skills, and is the kind of thing that can occur in less official military organizations.  The point is that without the promotions, they wouldn't have been leading the task forces.

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Poe should have been exactly the same, except he was kept as a Wedge instead of a Han Solo, and obviously the narrative of him being the grand hero chaffed against the fact that he was merely a subordinate. I don't think anything good came of that chaffing other than, as I believe, the script contriving to make him be wrong when based on what we were seeing he appeared to be right.

Poe was obviously, even in demotion, being groomed for senior leadership.  That's exactly why both Leia and ?Holden? made those comments to him.  They were trying to get him to recognize that sometimes a tactical win is a strategic loss, or simply not worth the costs of achieving it.

Fenring

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
« Reply #54 on: December 27, 2017, 03:47:31 PM »
I get it he's a hero and he's a character we're following in the movie.  If that were enough to be involved in every decision why aren't you upset with Finn not being consulted? 

I think the main difference here is that Finn was always on the fence about whether he really wanted to be a rebel. He certainly wasn't committed to their cause, and his whole character arc in Ep 8 seemed to be about whether being seen as a hero was worth it compared to simply protecting his own skin. That's a fine character story but obviously leaves him out of the "hero" category until he finally earns his stripes. Poe, by contrast, is already completely committed and recognized as being a rebel to the end. Indeed, that's part of why Leia likes him; there's an irony of running a rebel organization purposed to combatting authoritarian rule and then coming down hard on individuals who think for themselves and have trouble taking orders blindly. The contrast we've been given already between six previous films shows that the Rebellion was about more than just replacing one hierarchy with another one. The clone troops in the Clone Wars were the type of combat unit to take orders and execute them without argument and who were by definition parts of a war machine. Rebel troops were shown as different, where their individual perspectives mattered even though in a combat situation they did have to follow orders to complete a mission. But I think you've got a bit of the wrong idea when you take too seriously that the chain of command is paramount on a Resistance ship over and above including officers in the plan. This isn't a ship of clones, and part of why they have someone like Poe in a position of authority is precisely because he's both competent and independent. They didn't want a drone in his place or there would have been one. You don't need to be a commander to be a successful ace pilot. So no, I don't think he was 'just' a squadron commander without a squadron, the tone of the series so far makes him appear to be someone taken seriously, and also someone who others will follow. You'd need a good reason IMO to keep basic information from him, especially when his perspective no doubt mirrored that of everyone else in thinking they were all about to hopelessly die. That's just insanity, to allow your entire force to believe that when in fact there's a secure plan in place. If there had been a plot arc about a traitor, or a leak, or something like that I could see why they'd need secrecy and then perhaps Poe chaffing under being kept out of the loop could have worked. As it was it plays to me as the writer, rather than any character, wanting to keep the secret from the audience by keeping Poe in the dark. He was our proxy and they wanted to surprise the audience and so needed to shut him out of it too. But it just doesn't make sense and reeks of manipulating the audience just for an "aha!" effect. When the storyteller isn't on the level and has their own agenda that's a big turnoff to me.

TheDrake

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
« Reply #55 on: December 27, 2017, 04:34:47 PM »
Another point - if you have the ability to track single person fighters, why aren't any of the FO ships going to "notice" the lifeboat sized shuttles that the rebels are using to escape, when they've got nothing better to do waiting for the rebels to run out of fuel? They are obviously able to track them well enough to blow the crap out of them once they are "detected".

Somebody must have got force-choked for that one.

Crunch

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
« Reply #56 on: December 29, 2017, 11:16:54 AM »
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Rotten tomatoes has an aggregate rating of 93% right now but the audience score is 65%.

That was 2 weeks ago. Since then, it’s fallen pretty steadily. Currently it’s 91% frim critics and 51% from audiences. I think that reflects the initial run of super fans followed by the average movie goers. More and more, I see negative reactions but I think it’ll probably hover around the 50% range.

Fenring

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
« Reply #57 on: January 09, 2018, 02:06:52 PM »
Just wanted to do a quick poll/quiz for whoever saw the movie. How many of you understood immediately that, near the end of the film, Kylo Ren is the sneaky one who moves the lightsaber and kills Snoke? If so, how did you understand that he was able to accomplish this despite Snoke basically monitoring his thoughts? Did anyone come out of it thinking (as I did) that it was Rey who killed Snoke?

TheDrake

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
« Reply #58 on: January 09, 2018, 02:11:46 PM »
Ren was hiding his thoughts by creating the impression that his thoughts about killing Snoke were thoughts about killing Rey. This mask allows him to get away with the manipulation.

Fenring

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
« Reply #59 on: January 09, 2018, 03:07:42 PM »
Ren was hiding his thoughts by creating the impression that his thoughts about killing Snoke were thoughts about killing Rey. This mask allows him to get away with the manipulation.

That's what you saw them showing in the film? I.e. you observed this as being what was overtly being told? Or did you sort of gather this after the fact as what must have happened?

Wayward Son

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
« Reply #60 on: January 09, 2018, 03:32:46 PM »
Sorry, Fenring.  I'm with TheDrake.  It seemed pretty obvious to me that Ren killed Snokes, and did it just that way.

And good luck to Ren in holding the throne.  I can't imagine anyone following that tantrum-throwing brat. :)  Just look how Joffrey in <I>Game of Thrones</I> ended up. ;)

(BTW, I agree with Crunch's initial review.  The movie is pretty bad.  Couldn't care less who lived or died or was swallowed up by an earthquake...)

Fenring

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
« Reply #61 on: January 09, 2018, 03:38:26 PM »
Sorry, Fenring.  I'm with TheDrake.  It seemed pretty obvious to me that Ren killed Snokes, and did it just that way.

Don't be sorry! This isn't a lure into a debate point. I'm actually just asking whether it was clear to you how/why Kylo killed him. So you also saw the visual cues denoting Kylo deceiving Snoke? Like, as in, you were perhaps even able to say prior to the killing, 'aha, he's tricking him into thinking he intends to kill Rey'?

Wayward Son

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
« Reply #62 on: January 09, 2018, 03:46:44 PM »
Yeah, I recall figuring it out just that way.  At least, that was my conclusion once Snokes did his mitosis imitation.

TheDrake

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
« Reply #63 on: January 09, 2018, 03:50:11 PM »
I was definitely receiving it that way during the scene, thinking "I wonder if Snokes will catch on to this, or if he is so rapt with excitement at seeing Kylo fully embrace the dark side that he will never notice until the light saber burns through him."

Then I thought, "That's it then, one virtual slice? No need to finish him off? No need to have that final engagement of will with a weakened Snokes? No final act of anger from a mortally wounded Snokes that throws Kylo across the room? No dying curse from Snokes? No need to injure Rey in order to keep up the ruse long enough?"

They might as well have had a ceiling tile fall down and crush him at random, for all the showdown that ensued.

yossarian22c

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
« Reply #64 on: January 10, 2018, 07:51:41 AM »
I mostly enjoyed the movie. However... (spoilers)

Star wars physics has never been all that real but the bombers "showed" up out of no where but then took 10 minutes to travel the length of the ship plus all that was wrong with "dropping" the bombs in space. This whole scene was basically a waste since the First Order was just going to kill everyone and not take prisoners why would they stop to talk with one x-wing pilot.

Whiny Luke was annoying. The story could have been more meaningful if it had started with Luke telling her the Jedi must end and explaining why he wasn't going to teach her. As is was Luke is just an annoying prick until she hangs around long enough for him to tell her why.

The fact that the unarmed transports had "cloaking" technology that no other ship in the rebel fleet had is weird. Combine that with the fact that all the first order had to do to find them was to run an "anti-cloaking" scan was absurd. If that is all it took presumably they could run those scans all the time.

Another physics nit pick the ships that ran our of fuel start rotating like there is "drag" in space, those ships would have continued on at a constant velocity until they got picked off. Also WTF did anyone stay behind if the ships were just going to be blown up. Autopilot should be able to handle "stay on this course until you run out of fuel." Also why did the last 3 ships in the rebel fleet only have 6 hours worth of fuel??? This is one of those movie things I kind of hate when they shrink the size of the "good" forces so small as to be absurd. 3 ships in an entire galaxy of space travel isn't a fleet.

I agree the story would have been better if a spy was suspected instead of some magical new tech that tracks ships through light speed. This would have also have created a need for all the secrecy around the transport plan.

That said, I feel like the herd scene was one of the better scenes for Rose and Finn. It shows a little more depth to the universe. It was a ton better than finding some random thief/hacker good enough to break military encryption instantaneously aboard a stolen ship just sitting in a jail cell apparently waiting for other people to show up so he could walk out the front door? If its that easy to break the codes seems like the rebels should have maybe looked into that tech.

Honestly a better ending would have left Kylo more "grey" by having him fly off with his fleet leaving his mother alive. Luke doesn't get to play astral projection hero but if you wanted a more gray universe that would have added some true depth to his character after "saving" Rey.

TheDrake

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
« Reply #65 on: January 10, 2018, 09:37:34 AM »
Another physics nit pick the ships that ran our of fuel start rotating like there is "drag" in space, those ships would have continued on at a constant velocity until they got picked off. Also WTF did anyone stay behind if the ships were just going to be blown up. Autopilot should be able to handle "stay on this course until you run out of fuel." Also why did the last 3 ships in the rebel fleet only have 6 hours worth of fuel??? This is one of those movie things I kind of hate when they shrink the size of the "good" forces so small as to be absurd. 3 ships in an entire galaxy of space travel isn't a fleet.

So many problems with that. The velocity of the ship without fuel would be... exactly the same when it ran out of fuel for the same lack of drag. Also, when they fire randomly when the ships are out of range (presumably because they need to futilely use ammunition in order to appease their weapons suppliers?), how do they almost get close enough - obviously under acceleration - but not be able to reach the ships for some reason? Yah, it's not worth exploring SW physics.

Seriati

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
« Reply #66 on: January 10, 2018, 10:32:39 AM »
Sorry, Fenring.  I'm with TheDrake.  It seemed pretty obvious to me that Ren killed Snokes, and did it just that way.

Don't be sorry! This isn't a lure into a debate point. I'm actually just asking whether it was clear to you how/why Kylo killed him.   So you also saw the visual cues denoting Kylo deceiving Snoke? Like, as in, you were perhaps even able to say prior to the killing, 'aha, he's tricking him into thinking he intends to kill Rey'?

It was clear to me real time, but my warning lights always go off when people start using ambiguous language.  Screenwriters pretty much only use it to set off an "unexpected" event (or a bit of comedy).

It's also one of the things that was missing in the original Star Wars movies - Sith ambition.  Vader barely schemed against the Emporer rather than doing so constantly.  I think maybe in retrospect that should have been a sign that he really perceived himself as a ruthless good guy, convinced he was doing the right the thing, loyal to an ideal no matter the cost rather than just motivated by the blind ambition of a Sith.  Ren is much more typical on that front.  If you ever saw Serenity, Vader's motivation was much like the operative's.

NobleHunter

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
« Reply #67 on: January 10, 2018, 10:43:22 AM »
I don't know how much is still canon but an explanation for Vader's passivity was that his strength in the Force was weakened by his injuries. He wasn't strong enough to take out the Emperor by himself so he waited for Luke (or someone like him) to give him an edge.

Ren taking out Snokes was obvious to me as well but I know how the Sith are supposed to operate.

Seriati

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
« Reply #68 on: January 10, 2018, 10:45:32 AM »
So many problems with that. The velocity of the ship without fuel would be... exactly the same when it ran out of fuel for the same lack of drag. Also, when they fire randomly when the ships are out of range (presumably because they need to futilely use ammunition in order to appease their weapons suppliers?), how do they almost get close enough - obviously under acceleration - but not be able to reach the ships for some reason? Yah, it's not worth exploring SW physics.

Still spoilers

That's a good point.  Hadn't really thought about it too closely.  What are the odds that every ship in both fleets has such similar acceleration?  Would think that certain ships are going to be be built for things other than speed.

Another point that bothered me.  They wanted to get to a base with powerful communication equipment to send out a signal for help.  Help, which because of travel time is far away.  Why not call a friend and have them send the message?  Heck, we already saw that Finn and Rose were able to call Kanata, get away and come back, why not send someone ahead or to another radio depot to call for help?  And what kind of fleet doesn't restrict or monitor communications during combat?

Still can't stand Maz Kanata (aka orange yoda).

scifibum

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
« Reply #69 on: January 10, 2018, 05:30:32 PM »
Ren was hiding his thoughts by creating the impression that his thoughts about killing Snoke were thoughts about killing Rey. This mask allows him to get away with the manipulation.

That's what you saw them showing in the film? I.e. you observed this as being what was overtly being told? Or did you sort of gather this after the fact as what must have happened?

Yeah, Snoke's monologue gave it away.  He could see Kylo Ren thinking about striking down "his true enemy". 

Wayward Son

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
« Reply #70 on: January 10, 2018, 05:49:40 PM »
Of course, Ren's little trick also brings up the old question:  if you can turn on a light saber telepathically, why not turn off your opponent's light saber during a duel? ;)

cherrypoptart

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
« Reply #71 on: January 11, 2018, 07:05:44 PM »
I wonder if Ren got his inspiration for the idea of using the Force to suddenly and unexpectedly turn on the lightsaber from watching the Ryan Vs. Dorkman video on youtube.