Author Topic: Dem debates  (Read 993 times)

ScottF

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Dem debates
« on: June 29, 2019, 10:07:44 AM »
I watched as much as I could stomach on both nights and I’m convinced the dems are taking a page from Trumps playbook. That is: message hard to the edges of your base, prove your woke-ness chops to secure the nomination, then soften and backtrack in the general to gather more middle support.

Maybe I’m being charitable? If not, these debates are almost locking in Trump's chances at term 2.

Couple other notes:

1. The entire format is horrible. 10 people is 6 too many. The whole thing should be taken online and given long form treatment to truly get to know the candidates. Think Tulsi doing 2.5 hrs on Joe Rogan and you're getting closer to something worthwhile.
2. Yang (one of the few I genuinely want to hear more from) literally had his mic cut when he tried to comment. Thank God, otherwise it may have reduced the amount of delightful Spandering we got from Beto and Booker.
3. The old guys just can’t keep pace. Sorry Joe, Bernie.

DJQuag

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Re: Dem debates
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2019, 03:08:20 PM »
Bernie ride or die lol.

Crunch

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Re: Dem debates
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2019, 09:20:26 AM »
Too early to tell much of anything but I do think it would be awesome for Marianne Williamson and her love harness to get the nomination.

She’s the perfect person to run against Trump.

Bonus would be AOC as running mate. Dumb and dumber.

FYI, don’t google “love harness”. You end up in some really weird places.

« Last Edit: June 30, 2019, 09:31:38 AM by Crunch »

D.W.

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Re: Dem debates
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2019, 11:03:03 PM »
So I get that he's the DNC fave... but Biden doesn't perform well in debates, at all.   :-\

As much as I love Sanders, he seems fueled on 100% outrage.  I'd like to see some more calm responses from him than calls to urgency to fight the evils of the status quo.  :P

Warren did pretty well I thought.  And a lot of the peanut gallery did as well or better than expected, given the deck stacked against them in the way these things are structured. 

Harris I think could have done better.  Booker did well but looked like a deer in headlights until he started to answer.  Which, he then did quite well. 

I liked a lot of what Yang had to say but don't think I can get past that bonkers game he made out of his opening statement. 

I liked that the non-front runners are mostly green enough to actually answer questions posed to them, rather than answering somewhat related questions that nobody asked about.  At least, more so than is standard...
« Last Edit: September 12, 2019, 11:05:53 PM by D.W. »

Crunch

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Re: Dem debates
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2019, 07:52:40 AM »
Social media is chewing them up, I don’t think any of them showed well.

Most were watching to see what new gaffe Biden was serving up or if he was gonna bleed to death this time. Honestly, he’s not looking like he’s up for this. Everyone but him did a presser after the debate

Yang announced a lottery for donors. 10 families get $120K, buy a ticket by donation. Is that legal? I don’t know.

Kamala went flirty. Remember that weird chick that offered BJ’s for votes last election? I think Kamala may be considering that strategy. Worked for her before...

Beto is a complete nut, about what you expect from a furry. He’s gonna force buyback the scary guns. Good luck with that. Mine’s $10,000,000. Cash only, up front.

Booker still look like Wynona Ryder the night of the awards show where stranger things won. Constantly mystified. He’s way better solo, not a group project kind of guy.

Castro comes off as totally unlikable.

Was there a single word about the economy? I didn’t hear one thing about it. Weird.

Overall, way too many people. The moderator tried to mainstream the nuts but there was no reigning those guys in.


D.W.

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Re: Dem debates
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2019, 10:37:45 AM »
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Was there a single word about the economy? I didn’t hear one thing about it. Weird.
Not hardly enough.  Touched trade I guess.  But no policy/leadership.

Nothing on infrastructure either?  WTF.  Trump's inaction on this one should be a big deal.  Maybe they're afraid they'd remind him about it and he'd pounce to work on it before the election?  And the political loss is somehow more important than him doing something good for the country?  I, just don't know why they'd avoid that.

Maybe they just all agree, and no division means no sparks and that's not sexy tv...

Glad it's not just me on the "OMG they're not gonna call on me, are they?!" look I kept seeing on Booker's face.   :D

Crunch

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Re: Dem debates
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2019, 12:04:58 PM »
I thought the whole “Biden’s teeth falling out” thing was just a dig at his age but, holy *censored*, it really looks like he nearly dropped his teeth right out on the stage. Barely kept them in his mouth.

Seriously now, is Biden really up for this physically? He’s coming off as more than a little doddering.

rightleft22

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Re: Dem debates
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2019, 01:17:57 PM »
I think the polls are wrong. Biden can't beat Trump

He doesn't get it as he continues the old style politics. Sure it reminds people of home, how things used to be done but those days have passed.

The Dem's need to wake up

Crunch

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Re: Dem debates
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2019, 02:11:58 PM »
I literally put no credence in any poll now. They were poor before 2016 and were proven to be complete bull*censored* since then. Polls are nothing more than propaganda pieces designed to shape perceptions in order to drive decisions. The polls showing Biden could beat Trump are designed to get the left behind Biden and pick him as nominee - no doubt part of some deal he cut to step aside for Hillary’s run (which in turn was payback for her stepping aside for Obama’s).

If the deep state left decides Biden can’t win, you’ll suddenly see new polls that show someone else can beat Trump. I hope it Beto or Marianne, that would be awesome.

Seriati

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Re: Dem debates
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2019, 02:22:04 PM »
So I get that he's the DNC fave... but Biden doesn't perform well in debates, at all.   :-\

If that's your concern, I wouldn't worry he'd be going against Trump and to my recollection he has yet to "win" a debate with anyone.  My bigger issue is that he's being pulled way to the left, and with his age, if he has to pick a hard left VP, it'll mean the choice is absolutely between Trump and a hard left agenda.

Which is largely the problem I have with everyone else who is still on the stage.  They're too far out, to the point that objectively, they'll be worse for the country than leaving Trump in place.  In my view, Biden running a moderate campaign is the only way to create a choice situation where people in the middle will have more than one option.

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As much as I love Sanders, he seems fueled on 100% outrage.  I'd like to see some more calm responses from him than calls to urgency to fight the evils of the status quo.  :P

Sanders is a terrible candidate, with bad ideas.  If you could guarantee a Republican Congress he might be someone we could suffer through, but I'd shudder to see what he'd try to appoint to the judiciary.

Quote
Warren did pretty well I thought.  And a lot of the peanut gallery did as well or better than expected, given the deck stacked against them in the way these things are structured.

I get the appeal of Warren, she's the reality of which Hillary was only the image, in a lot of ways.  She's clearly wicked smart, but I just can't wrap my head around how she's gotten so far into the wrong policies.  I can't forgive her for being the driving force behind the recklessly authoritarian creation of the CFPD.  Her ideas of a wealth tax and some of her policies would result in the death of the US as an economic power, and would bankrupt our retirement plans (massively hurting the middle and lower class) and unwind virtually all advances in jobs and wages.  I get hating Trump, but I'd hope people like themselves, their families and their friends more than they hate Trump.

Everyone else?  I'm imagining that for those on the left its pretty much exactly the feeling I've had in the last 3 Presidential campaigns watching the candidates with the ideas I thought were the best getting eliminated by the media or not holding up to the demands of the party.  It's frustrating when your options come down to people with crazy ideas/reprehensible (e.g. Cruz and Trump), or the impossibly unelectable (Kasich, McCain), and even when you get a candidate that could win they media tears them apart (Romney).  Oh whoops, forget about that last one, I forgot your Dems and the media will never do that to you.

D.W.

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Re: Dem debates
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2019, 05:49:34 PM »
True, the only equivalent is just ignoring candidates into oblivion. 

ScottF

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Re: Dem debates
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2019, 06:49:47 PM »
Ironically Biden is the only realistic person to beat Trump but won’t get the chance to do so. Doddering but safe beats Trump all day every day.

Crunch

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Re: Dem debates
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2019, 07:55:43 PM »
I dunno, his teeth falling out and bleeding through eye is a hard sell to the American voter I would think. Add in the amusing and often bizarre gaffes, I don’t see how he’s even remotely electable at this point.

D.W.

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Re: Dem debates
« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2019, 08:36:46 PM »
I was reading other stuff while I had it on so missed anything to do with his teeth.  First I heard of the eye bleeding? 

But even just focusing on what he said, it was underwhelming. 

cherrypoptart

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Re: Dem debates
« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2019, 09:22:10 PM »
I could go for a Marianne-Yang ticket and would support it 100%. I wouldn't actually vote for it but I'd tell everyone how much I like it just like I did with Jill Stein. And I do like Marianne and Yang. I like that I don't smell the stench of deep corruption from them that is coming off of most of the rest of the Dem field. Their platforms are also... what's the kind word for it... oh yeah... interesting.

Apparently Biden's eye bleed is no cause for alarm and was caused when he tried to should rub and hair smell the wrong little girl who wasn't having it. The same thing could happen to any of us if we went around doing that.

Crunch

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Re: Dem debates
« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2019, 09:25:49 PM »
The eye bleed was something to do with his medication. Apparently it’s not uncommon nor a big deal but it looks pretty damn serious. If I’d seen it right in front of me, I’d have though he was having a stroke or something.

D.W.

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Re: Dem debates
« Reply #16 on: September 13, 2019, 10:09:55 PM »
Umm, when "bleeding from the eye" is a possible side effect, WTF are you treating?   :o

I'm normally pretty dismissive of the, "is so and so healthy / young enough to run this country?" speculation but, yikes! 

I mean, that one bond villain kinda made it look creepy/intimidating, but it's pretty gross.

Fenring

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Re: Dem debates
« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2019, 02:36:01 AM »
I'm watching the debate now, and boy this is a bad group. It reminds me of the GOP debates that involved Trump. However the gravitas of the GOP debates was much higher because (a) Jeb Bush was involved, who needed to be taken down and looked like an early favorite, and (b) there seemed to be a race for who could sound most aggressive with foreign policy. This one was more of a wet noodle fight, although despite what the others said above I actually think Booker looked pretty good up there. Warren is used to public speaking so I figured she'd look as good as she did. But I wouldn't compare her to Hillary, other than they're both smart ladies! Warren spent years practically on the opposite side of the party talking about things like taking on Wall Street, somewhat like Sanders. And of course Bernie looked great, although it was too bad his voice was hoarse. The rest of the candidates looked horrible. Actually O'Malley from 2016 looked a lot more reasonable as a candidate than most of this crop does. And I must say I'm bummed that Gabbard wasn't a part of this because she's 10 times the candidate most of them are, putting aside her polling (whatever that's worth). She's probably right that Google conspired to bury her search results.

Biden can't beat Trump; I think he would be steamrolled. I think a tenable candidate might be Bernie with a running mate like Warren or Gabbard, or maybe even Warren with a running mate like Booker. Those could work. The Dems just need to avoid propping anyone up who's going to look outright stupid when Trump walks all over them. I suspect that Warren would stick to her guns and not be drawn into his schtick, while Bernie may be the only candidate here who could actually go toe to toe with Trump's humor attempts. He has a gift for making people laugh easily with offhand comments that could disarm Trump's monopoly on seeming like the fun one. Going after Trump with ad hominems isn't the way, but Bernie has a good humored sort of joking that could keep him in there with Trump.

Crunch

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Re: Dem debates
« Reply #18 on: September 14, 2019, 09:28:34 AM »
Biden says it’s a contact lens issue that caused a subconjunctival hemorrhage. That can happen. I also read somewhere that he’s on blood thinners and such a thing can happen as a side effect. It’s not supposed to be a major concern but it looked pretty bad. But when you put this with all his gaffes, misremembering, and other stuff, it’s not a great picture from a health standpoint. Definitely something he will need to get in front of but the official campaign response is to act like these things aren’t happening.

Bernie is a full on socialist. I really don’t see Americans embracing socialism. The DNC didn’t either and knee capped him last time. I don’t think anything changed since then. If Bernie gets the nomination, it really helps Trump.

ScottF

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Re: Dem debates
« Reply #19 on: September 14, 2019, 11:37:42 AM »
Not that he really has a chance anyway, but Castro did himself no favors by attempting to belittle Biden via old-man attack. Castro came across as a smarmy little twerp.

Crunch

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Re: Dem debates
« Reply #20 on: September 14, 2019, 03:47:45 PM »
It’s nit the first time he’s come across that way. I think that’s who he really is.

Crunch

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Re: Dem debates
« Reply #21 on: September 15, 2019, 09:30:47 AM »
Just saw a clip of Bernie promising to end all deportations, free healthcare for everyone including illegal aliens, and free college for everyone including illegal aliens. 

Does anyone realistically think this could win a national election?

DonaldD

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Re: Dem debates
« Reply #22 on: September 15, 2019, 10:06:02 PM »
In most first world countries, those things are a given (for a certain value of "end all deportations")

Crunch

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Re: Dem debates
« Reply #23 on: September 15, 2019, 10:36:30 PM »
So?

Fenring

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Re: Dem debates
« Reply #24 on: September 16, 2019, 12:45:31 AM »
So?

You know that expression that if everyone you ever meet is an a-hole then you're the a-hole? Consider the same proposition in terms of every country around you being crazy.

D.W.

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Re: Dem debates
« Reply #25 on: September 16, 2019, 01:28:56 AM »
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Does anyone realistically think this could win a national election?
Against Trump?  Ya.  I think Trump correctly diagnosed (or got lucky?) that the nation was looking for anything but the same-ol'-same-ol'.  Sanders would fit right into that niche as well.  And do so by scapegoating the super wealthy instead of scapegoating the super marginalized / desperate. 

I think he would have absolutely won last go round, and has a good shot this time.  Though I think the better play would be for two of the front runners to share a ticket.  (and announce that sooner rather than later)

Crunch

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Re: Dem debates
« Reply #26 on: September 16, 2019, 07:30:11 AM »
So?

You know that expression that if everyone you ever meet is an a-hole then you're the a-hole? Consider the same proposition in terms of every country around you being crazy.

Or alternatively, just because others are doing it doesn’t mean it’s the right thing to do. There are some countries in the world doing terrible things, should we apply this logic to them and emulate thise acts?

Crunch

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Re: Dem debates
« Reply #27 on: September 16, 2019, 07:38:05 AM »
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Does anyone realistically think this could win a national election?
Against Trump?  Ya.  I think Trump correctly diagnosed (or got lucky?) that the nation was looking for anything but the same-ol'-same-ol'.  Sanders would fit right into that niche as well.  And do so by scapegoating the super wealthy instead of scapegoating the super marginalized / desperate. 

I think he would have absolutely won last go round, and has a good shot this time.  Though I think the better play would be for two of the front runners to share a ticket.  (and announce that sooner rather than later)

I don’t see an avowed socialist getting much traction by proposing trillions in new spending. I suppose TDS could get virulent enough to make it seem that way as the media goes all in for the Democrat nominee again but socialism is a hard sell. Especially coming from a guy that looks and sounds like the crazy uncle in your basement.

If the economy continues this historic success through 2020, how does Bernie or anyone else convince people it’s time to change that? The general election won’t be like these debates where the Democrats can pretend the economy doesn’t even exist. Throw in some gun grabbing that’s all the rage right now and it’s a very uphill battle.

Seriati

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Re: Dem debates
« Reply #28 on: September 16, 2019, 09:41:41 AM »
Just saw a clip of Bernie promising to end all deportations, free healthcare for everyone including illegal aliens, and free college for everyone including illegal aliens. 

Does anyone realistically think this could win a national election?

In most first world countries, those things are a given (for a certain value of "end all deportations")

So?

You know that expression that if everyone you ever meet is an a-hole then you're the a-hole? Consider the same proposition in terms of every country around you being crazy.

Out of curiosity Fen, before you move past the odd statement of fact and chastise Crunch, don't you think you should examine it?

DonaldD asserted, if I read that correctly, that First world countries don't deport people (open lie, and even worse because the US has been the most open of First World countries for most of its history), most of Australian has very immigration laws, most of Europe does as well (and almost no tolerance for local policies that go against national, or even EU level policy).

Free college for everyone?  Sure, if you "qualify" to go, otherwise you're paying your own way and often doing so out of country.

Healthcare is the only one, and that's more just a function of their systems, which as discussed on here endlessly, have their own flaws that the advocates just ignore (and you may want to check into the stories from refugees in places like Europe before you take it whole heartedly that they get equal medical care).

And generally it is flawed to think that because the remora and the pilot fish outnumber the shark, the shark is doing something wrong and would be wish to emulate them.

Fenring

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Re: Dem debates
« Reply #29 on: September 16, 2019, 10:46:08 AM »
DonaldD asserted, if I read that correctly, that First world countries don't deport people (open lie, and even worse because the US has been the most open of First World countries for most of its history), most of Australian has very immigration laws, most of Europe does as well (and almost no tolerance for local policies that go against national, or even EU level policy).

Honestly I was replying more about the healthcare side than the open immigration part. But even then it's hard to compared the U.S. (solitary immigration policy) to the EU with its own broad and yet individual setup.

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Free college for everyone?  Sure, if you "qualify" to go, otherwise you're paying your own way and often doing so out of country.

I didn't fact check whether Bernie promised free health care for illegals, and in fact that would surprise me. I guess a direct quote would be good to see because I've never heard him say that in any showing I've ever seen, so I more or less ignored that part of Crunch's comment.

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Healthcare is the only one, and that's more just a function of their systems, which as discussed on here endlessly, have their own flaws that the advocates just ignore (and you may want to check into the stories from refugees in places like Europe before you take it whole heartedly that they get equal medical care).

And generally it is flawed to think that because the remora and the pilot fish outnumber the shark, the shark is doing something wrong and would be wish to emulate them.

I like your analogy, although there's a question of whether it's true that their universal healthcare systems can only exist *because* the U.S. doesn't have one. But even granting your point as a given, Americans would then be in the position of saying "boy it's great what they have, and we'd be happy with it too except it's impossible because we don't have a shark to feed us." The outlook of universal healthcare ought to be a positive one other than the fact that it's hard to implement in the U.S., if you're right. And yet the prevailing arguments about don't just include questions of who'll pay for it, but more often questions about people being *made* to give up their private plans, or other variants of "Americans don't like being told what to do and having their choice taken away." So it seems like the problem is psychological more so than financial, because if it was *just* financial you'd think the question would be how to make such a thing work, rather than arguing about whether it's desirable at all.

Seriati

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Re: Dem debates
« Reply #30 on: September 16, 2019, 11:08:30 AM »
Fen, there's a million ways to approach healthcare, and I'm willing to bet 95% would be better in some or many ways than what we have today.  I'd love an open and honest discussion on it.  But I'm not conceding to a mixed use plan, by which I mean a government take over that is far more about increasing statist power than helping people, that in my view generates and will generate worse health outcomes, and that largely is only needed to fix the problems the government itself created.

I agree neither you, or anyone else, has to agree with my assertion that the US system is generating the hyper advancement of medical technology, but I've yet to hear any reasonable answer about what would replace the enormous financial incentives that the US system generates to create that motivation.

NobleHunter

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Re: Dem debates
« Reply #31 on: September 16, 2019, 11:22:31 AM »
An open and honest discussion where you start by assuming your opponents are more interested in power than in helping people?

DonaldD

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Re: Dem debates
« Reply #32 on: September 16, 2019, 12:07:38 PM »
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the US has been the most open of First World countries for most of its history
Hmmm... it certainly is not true presently, nor for the past decade at the least:
https://www.npr.org/2014/10/29/359963625/dozens-of-countries-take-in-more-immigrants-per-capita-than-the-u-s

As for it being an "open lie", since I can't speak to the context of what was written, or whether it was even accurate;y paraphrased, I did qualify the statement with "for a certain value of".  Are we talking about deporting refugee claimants with hearings? Deporting refugee claimaints while the process is underway? Claimants that have broken local laws?