Author Topic: Jeffrey Epstein arrest  (Read 2452 times)

Fenring

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: Jeffrey Epstein arrest
« Reply #100 on: August 15, 2019, 11:57:35 AM »
While it's a bummer that you are trying to discredit a perfectly good conspiracy theory, now at least we can occupy our time wondering how it is LetterRip knows so much about hanging the elderly?    >:(

And so much about Epstein's hanging specifically. It's almost as if he was there...  ;)

LetterRip

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: Jeffrey Epstein arrest
« Reply #101 on: August 15, 2019, 11:58:11 AM »
While it's a bummer that you are trying to discredit a perfectly good conspiracy theory, now at least we can occupy our time wondering how it is LetterRip knows so much about hanging the elderly?    >:(

Heheh, definitely not to knock off relatives for the inheritance - I'm going to inherit bills.

LetterRip

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: Jeffrey Epstein arrest
« Reply #102 on: August 15, 2019, 12:07:14 PM »
Ooops - correction, the 76% was for strangulation or hanging, for hanging the highest rate I've seen is 67%,

Quote
The various authors have reported the incidence of hyoid bone fracture from nil/rare to as high as 67% in hanging cases. Keeping the above facts into consideration, the present study was undertaken with the aim of studying the presence of hyoid bone fractures in hanging cases.

[...]

Betz [24] found the incidence of throat skeleton fractures to be as high as 67%.

[...]

In teenagers and young adults, the joints are cartilaginous and mobile and they calcify irregularly as the age increases in middle and later life. [1, 2] These natural joints may be mistaken as the fractures, if dissection is not done meticulously. There is also the possibility of fractures being post-mortem, due to incorrect autopsy techniques, inexperienced forensic pathologist, body transit trauma, improper handling in the mortuary etc. [1, 2]

[...]

In the studies where the incidence was found to be nil, the teenage and young adult were most commonly involved age groups. [6, 9] In our study, the mean age was 28.8 years and cases who were more than 40 years victims were 12.4%. In studies which reported higher incidence, the mean age was also high like, 35 years. [16- 20, 22] Morlid [17] also observed that the different age composition may be the reason behind the variations in the incidence of hyoid bone fractures. Meera [8] also only found the fractures in cases which were more than 40 years of age.

The other factors which can be considered as the reason for these variations are gender, height of suspension, the difference in the types of ligature material and type of hanging. But Feigin [15] concluded that the height of suspension, gender of the decedent and ligature width were not predictive of the Fractures. Nikolic and Charoonnate [16, 18] also concluded that the hyoid bone fracture is not correlated with the type of hanging.

http://medind.nic.in/jal/t13/i3/jalt13i3p239.pdf
« Last Edit: August 15, 2019, 12:10:24 PM by LetterRip »

Crunch

  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: Jeffrey Epstein arrest
« Reply #103 on: August 15, 2019, 12:37:45 PM »
Report today from the autopsy is that Epstein had multiple broken bones in his neck. Apparently this is consistent with strangulation and it strongly implies he did not die by simply hanging. I’m not sure if it does or not but conspiracy types will certainly love this detail.

Actually the 'broken bones' are the hyoid - which is consistent with hanging as well as strangulation.  Given that he is elderly it is extremely common for the hyoid to break during a hanging.  If it had been other neck bones (cervical vertibrate) then it would be more reasonable to suspect foul play or if he had been in his early 20's (there is a 25% chance overall risk of hyoid being broken during a hanging, but it is drastically lower at young ages, and dramatically higher for elderly) - but the hyoid being broken is quite common in hanging of elderly even from short distances so doesn't tell us much - it doesn't rule out strangulation but it isn't evidence supporting it either.

The report is that multiple bones were broken although maybe that’s from the attack by his cell mate a few weeks ago?

LetterRip

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: Jeffrey Epstein arrest
« Reply #104 on: August 15, 2019, 01:13:27 PM »
The report is that multiple bones were broken although maybe that’s from the attack by his cell mate a few weeks ago?

Yeah I've seen the reports that say 'multiple bones' but none have specified anything other than his hyoid.  Additional bones are possible in both hangings and strangulations.

Unfortunately a professionally staged suicide will be quite difficult to detect if they are prepared, especially if it is more an assisted suicide.  Only if he fought back, struggled, etc. and they had to improvise (blunt force trauma, strangulation of breaking his neck in such a way that it would be inconsistent with a hanging) or left DNA under the nails etc. we probably will never know.

LetterRip

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: Jeffrey Epstein arrest
« Reply #105 on: August 15, 2019, 01:20:52 PM »
Another report found 72.5% of hangings had hyoid fractures,

Quote
A 2018 forensic pathology paper by Zátopková et al found that hyoid fractures in hanging victims occurred in 72.5 percent of the 178 cases studied. Another paper from 1996 by Pollanen and Chiasson said the hyoid is fractured in one-third of all homicides by strangulation.

"Fractures of the human hyoid bone encountered in forensic anthropology cases involving apparent homicide victims have been interpreted as markers of strangulation," the paper's abstract states.

"Caution is required in this assessment since modifications of the hyoid bone, cervical vertebrae, and cartilage of the trachea, thyroid and larynx may be the results of arrested ontogenetic development, hard-force trauma, autopsy mishandling and pathology.

"Only by examining all of the preserved osseous and cartilaginous structures of the neck may the forensic anthropologist achieve an accurate reconstruction of the manner of death associated with hyoid bone fractures."

https://www.newsweek.com/jeffrey-epstein-autopsy-neck-hyoid-bone-broken-suicide-homicide-1454457

Also as pointed out in the paper I referenced - incompetence of the Medical Examiner (or those handling the body) can give false positives.

Lloyd Perna

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: Jeffrey Epstein arrest
« Reply #106 on: August 15, 2019, 01:35:24 PM »
Report today from the autopsy is that Epstein had multiple broken bones in his neck. Apparently this is consistent with strangulation and it strongly implies he did not die by simply hanging. I’m not sure if it does or not but conspiracy types will certainly love this detail.

Actually the 'broken bones' are the hyoid - which is consistent with hanging as well as strangulation.  Given that he is elderly it is extremely common for the hyoid to break during a hanging.  If it had been other neck bones (cervical vertibrate) then it would be more reasonable to suspect foul play or if he had been in his early 20's (there is a 25% chance overall risk of hyoid being broken during a hanging, but it is drastically lower at young ages, and dramatically higher for elderly) - but the hyoid being broken is quite common in hanging of elderly even from short distances so doesn't tell us much - it doesn't rule out strangulation but it isn't evidence supporting it either.

Actually, If we go to the source of the report, The Washington Post, there is a bit more information.

Quote
An autopsy found that financier Jeffrey Epstein suffered multiple breaks in his neck bones, according to two people familiar with the findings, deepening the mystery about the circumstances around his death.

Among the bones broken in Epstein’s neck was the hyoid bone, which in men is near the Adam’s apple. Such breaks can occur in those who hang themselves, particularly if they are older, according to forensics experts and studies on the subject. But they are more common in victims of homicide by strangulation, the experts said.

So it seems that other neck bones were also broken.

Fenring

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: Jeffrey Epstein arrest
« Reply #107 on: August 15, 2019, 01:40:05 PM »
Also, it bears mentioning that Epstein couldn't have hanged himself because there was nothing to hang from. I've read that some people kill themselves in a sitting position using a door or bed as leverage to strangulate themselves. However this is not the same type of strangulation as when someone kicks away the chair, falls, and is hanging from the chandelier. I've also read that the clothes and sheets in that facility are supposed to be designed to be extremely fragile and will tear before being pulled with enough force to kill yourself with them.

LetterRip

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: Jeffrey Epstein arrest
« Reply #108 on: August 15, 2019, 02:02:36 PM »
So it seems that other neck bones were also broken.

The only bone they are reporting on though is the hyoid - it is clear whoever passed the information on wasn't a pathologist or even passingly familiar with pathology so until we get a more detailed report I don't think we can conclude it was in fact 'multiple bones'.

Fenring,

Quote
Also, it bears mentioning that Epstein couldn't have hanged himself because there was nothing to hang from. I've read that some people kill themselves in a sitting position using a door or bed as leverage to strangulate themselves. However this is not the same type of strangulation as when someone kicks away the chair, falls, and is hanging from the chandelier.

He apparently was in a cell with bunkbeds, and used a sheet.

Quote
Jeffrey Epstein was found hanging in his lower Manhattan jail cell with a bedsheet wrapped around his neck and secured to the top of a bunk bed, The Post has learned.

https://nypost.com/2019/08/12/jeffrey-epstein-hanged-himself-with-prison-bedsheet-source/

Quote
I've also read that the clothes and sheets in that facility are supposed to be designed to be extremely fragile and will tear before being pulled with enough force to kill yourself with them.

It only takes a few pounds of pressure, it doesn't have to support your body weight, only be enough to put pressure on the carotid.  Even the strength of toilet paper twisted around a few times has enough strength to do it.  That said, it would have to support more weight to break the hyoid - not sure how much to be sufficient to fracture an elderly hyoid.

The sheets might be designed to not support a neck break via a drop snap; but they'd certainly work for the method described in the nypost.

Also a broken hyoid can occur during post mortem handling by guards, by the transport to the ME, or by the ME.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2019, 02:04:41 PM by LetterRip »

Fenring

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: Jeffrey Epstein arrest
« Reply #109 on: August 15, 2019, 03:33:12 PM »
Yes, LR, the official narrative usually has to be able to be theoretically possible, although that doesn't speak to how probable or believable it is. An extremely interesting confluence of events must occur to create this scenario:

-He is nearly killed a few weeks ago, a judge orders a suicide watch.
-Somehow (I believe) this is apparently lifted a few days ago, unclear why this would be allowed.
-Both (!) guards had fallen asleep while this happened.
-There should be a camera on the cell, and I've heard it might have been turned off. I'll try to read more on this point; maybe it exists and hasn't been discussed by anyone? That would be almost weirder than if it was magically turned off.
-A guy on a suicide watch was apparently given a sturdy bedsheet and a bunk bed?? And not just 'some' suicide risk, but the guy literally everyone in the world thought was going to be assassinated in jail and were just waiting for the shoe to drop.
-No one heard anything.

This is a guy who should have been kept in cryogenic suspension and guarded at the pentagon, and instead whoopsie, look at all these separate bits of bad luck. And magically they're not just bad luck for him, but bad luck for anyone who might want to know what happened. Oops! I guess a few low-level bureaucrats and the two guards will be fired for this (and rehired elsewhere next month). I've read that the guards may have also falsified records but I'm not sure about that one yet.

Cue: <scene from The Naked Gun with the fireworks factory exploding>
DREBIN: Nothing to see here! Move along! Nothing to see here!

And I'll reiterate what I mentioned earlier, which is that if you give a random shmo a bedsheet and a bunk bed, I bet you they will have a lot of trouble killing themselves with it. Bunk beds aren't all that high up, so your feet and legs are going to be clattering around, maybe even hitting the floor. Bedsheets get surprisingly fat when twisted around and rolled up (like as if you were rope-ifying it) and might be difficult to tie around as you would with a noose. I guess it would be unethical to request some TV show to run experiments on whether average people can kill themselves like this on average. I almost think you'd have to have been instructed (or dare I say it, trained) on how to execute this kind of suicide with good confidence you'll succeed. Don't forget - most suicides you hear about are going to be tainted by survivorship bias (or in this case, success bias); you don't read about all the people who tried various mundane ways to die and failed. I suspect it's not that easy to *be sure* you'll get something like this right on the first try. In Epstein's case one failure would mean spending the rest of his jail term in a straightjacket, most likely.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2019, 03:42:08 PM by Fenring »

D.W.

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: Jeffrey Epstein arrest
« Reply #110 on: August 15, 2019, 03:37:56 PM »
You left out that his roomie was also recently removed, and that they had been running those guards on excessive overtime the week leading up to it.  While, "oh ya, they were overworked, sleepy on the job makes sense..."  It's also a good groundwork to lay in advance.  /tinfoilhat

There was also a headline about someone hearing yelling or around the time he was found, but the piece was amazingly short / vague as to be mostly nonsensical. 

Fenring

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: Jeffrey Epstein arrest
« Reply #111 on: August 15, 2019, 03:47:47 PM »
You left out that his roomie was also recently removed, and that they had been running those guards on excessive overtime the week leading up to it.  While, "oh ya, they were overworked, sleepy on the job makes sense..."  It's also a good groundwork to lay in advance.  /tinfoilhat

It's true that if they were greatly overworked it could explain why falling asleep might be a thing. But both of them? Anyhow it's somewhat aburd if you think about this as an actual explanation: "Well you know, they were so overworked that they both fell asleep at once, and Epstein was just waiting for this and watching for those little zzz's to begin, and patiently waited to kill himself until the coast was clear and they were out for the count. In hindsight it might have been a bad idea to put the guard chairs right in front of his cell where he could see them sleeping. Ah well, live and learn."

You'd have to actually accept something like that for this narrative to even make sense. Otherwise it's an abusrd coincidence that he just happened to do it while they just both happened to be asleep.

TheDeamon

  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: Jeffrey Epstein arrest
« Reply #112 on: August 15, 2019, 06:03:39 PM »
And I'll reiterate what I mentioned earlier, which is that if you give a random shmo a bedsheet and a bunk bed, I bet you they will have a lot of trouble killing themselves with it. Bunk beds aren't all that high up, so your feet and legs are going to be clattering around, maybe even hitting the floor. Bedsheets get surprisingly fat when twisted around and rolled up (like as if you were rope-ifying it) and might be difficult to tie around as you would with a noose. I guess it would be unethical to request some TV show to run experiments on whether average people can kill themselves like this on average. I almost think you'd have to have been instructed (or dare I say it, trained) on how to execute this kind of suicide with good confidence you'll succeed.

When I was attending my Navy "Strand School" (BEE) somebody in an adjacent barracks(on a different shift) attempted(&completed) suicide by hanging himself from the desk/bed combo in his (4 man) room according to the rumor mill at that time. The bed part of the combo is about 5 feet above the floor. I remember a few people making comments about how determined he must have been to see that through.

Crunch

  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: Jeffrey Epstein arrest
« Reply #113 on: August 15, 2019, 06:08:29 PM »
Also, it bears mentioning that Epstein couldn't have hanged himself because there was nothing to hang from. I've read that some people kill themselves in a sitting position using a door or bed as leverage to strangulate themselves. However this is not the same type of strangulation as when someone kicks away the chair, falls, and is hanging from the chandelier. I've also read that the clothes and sheets in that facility are supposed to be designed to be extremely fragile and will tear before being pulled with enough force to kill yourself with them.

It’s hard to get details but I have been lead to believe he was able to tie his sheets to the upper bunk frame somehow. If that’s accurate, I suppose he could have tied it short and roll/jumped off the top bunk in a kind of tight position to get the jerk he needed to break multiple bones. Is that possible? I dunno, seems like it wouldn’t be but I really don’t know.

TheDrake

  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: Jeffrey Epstein arrest
« Reply #114 on: August 15, 2019, 06:53:12 PM »
Or he actually DID have the cellmate he was supposed to have, who broke his pedophile neck. When the guards came around again they freaked out, because they had been smuggling drugs for the killer. They swept him out of there, and then declared that they found him alone.

Isn't this fun?

scifibum

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: Jeffrey Epstein arrest
« Reply #115 on: August 15, 2019, 07:30:32 PM »
Has anyone done the one where they sewed his face onto John Travolta

D.W.

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: Jeffrey Epstein arrest
« Reply #116 on: August 16, 2019, 10:25:23 AM »
Has anyone done the one where they sewed his face onto John Travolta
Actually...  maybe
I saw something I didn't even bother clicking on that was critiquing the shape of his ear from 2 pictures... 

Crunch

  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: Jeffrey Epstein arrest
« Reply #117 on: August 16, 2019, 02:43:22 PM »
One of the things we can say, Trump’s accusers have never committed suicide. Clinton accusers, they kill themselves in droves.

TheDrake

  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: Jeffrey Epstein arrest
« Reply #118 on: August 16, 2019, 03:08:06 PM »
What's funny about that foolish statement is that Epstein never accused the Clintons of anything. So he's not a Clinton accuser.

TheDeamon

  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: Jeffrey Epstein arrest
« Reply #119 on: August 16, 2019, 03:13:31 PM »
What's funny about that foolish statement is that Epstein never accused the Clintons of anything. So he's not a Clinton accuser.

Depends on how you define "accuse" in this case. That it also make fun of another Clinton trope is just icing on the cake.

Epstein had information that could implicate Bill Clinton in unsavory things. By implicating Bill, he's "accusing"Bill.

Much like Vince Foster was believed to have information which could endanger("accuse") the Clintons and decided to suicide instead.

TheDrake

  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: Jeffrey Epstein arrest
« Reply #120 on: August 16, 2019, 03:28:02 PM »
Words mean something. Accuse doesn't mean "might potentially be able to implicate". It's not like he was on the verge of testifying, nor would it be clear that he's more likely to implicate Clinton than dozens of other powerful people.

Cohen is the direct parallel. Cohen didn't commit suicide, Epstein did.

TheDrake

  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: Jeffrey Epstein arrest
« Reply #121 on: August 16, 2019, 03:28:51 PM »
Maybe associating with the Clintons just makes a person deeply depressed to the point of taking their own life.

Fenring

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: Jeffrey Epstein arrest
« Reply #122 on: August 16, 2019, 03:35:57 PM »
Maybe associating with the Clintons just makes a person deeply depressed to the point of taking their own life.

Lot of depressed people in Libya.

TheDeamon

  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: Jeffrey Epstein arrest
« Reply #123 on: August 16, 2019, 04:38:27 PM »
Words mean something. Accuse doesn't mean "might potentially be able to implicate". It's not like he was on the verge of testifying, nor would it be clear that he's more likely to implicate Clinton than dozens of other powerful people.

Cohen is the direct parallel. Cohen didn't commit suicide, Epstein did.

Vince Foster did commit suicide though, and as a White House General Consul, he actually was in a position more comparable to Cohen in regards to Trump.

Crunch

  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: Jeffrey Epstein arrest
« Reply #124 on: August 17, 2019, 09:14:26 AM »
ME rules it a suicide. Epstein’s lawyers are objecting to that.

Crunch

  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: Jeffrey Epstein arrest
« Reply #125 on: August 17, 2019, 09:18:06 AM »
What's funny about that foolish statement is that Epstein never accused the Clintons of anything. So he's not a Clinton accuser.

Why defend Clinton at this point? He was on the Lolita Express multiple times. He was on pedo island. He was directly attached to the things Epstein was offering. Epstein didn’t have to accuse Clinton to be a threat to Clinton. Clinton is already very credibly and blatantly implicated in Epstein’s activities 

We don’t need to be pedantic here.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2019, 09:26:37 AM by Crunch »