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General Category => General Comments => Topic started by: OrneryMod on August 15, 2021, 05:50:22 AM

Title: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: OrneryMod on August 15, 2021, 05:50:22 AM
Kristine Card has informed me that she and OSC have decided to wind down their online presences, and to stop hosting Ornery and Hatrack River in early September sometime. 

The admin at Hatrack has started a thread (http://www.hatrack.com/ubb/main/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=060338) to let people say goodbye and connect with one another beyond the forums.  Please feel free to use this thread in the same way, and if you'd like, leave your contact information for the other members.

I have spoken with Kristine Card about continuing to host ornery.org and the ornery forums on my webserver. She said they are open to that, so please let me know if you'd like for the forums and guest-article page to continue. If there is enough interest, I will make the arrangements to have it transferred to my server.  We should be able to transition seamlessly, perhaps with a few days of downtime.

With the advent of Facebook and Reddit, old bbc-style forums like this have been slowly dying off.  We've seen our membership drop significantly since the early/mid 2000's, and I think we've got only a dozen or two active posters now.  Perhaps it makes sense to let the forum close as OSC leaves the picture, or maybe it's worth maintaining. What do you guys think?

Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: Crunch on August 15, 2021, 09:24:04 AM
The end of an era to be sure. The technological obsolescence of forum software like this one and the ideologically driven moderation/purging, particularly in the few years before moving to this platform, took a toll. It would be a shame to not learn the lessons of those 2 failures and try to continue this forum with nothing more than new hosting services. If that’s all you’re going to do, then let it die.

I suggest moving the forum to Reddit. You can make it a restricted sub, it’s a modern platform, costing nothing to host. The only reason to maintain this instance is the history, it would be fantastic to migrate to Reddit but that’s probably too much effort for something like this.
Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: Fenring on August 15, 2021, 10:01:10 AM
Personally I'd be sad to see the forum go, even though its format is more old fashioned. I find it easier to have a debate on this physical medium than I would on Reddit, for instance. I've seen Reddit debates, and based on the response structure it's not really amenable to more than a few chains of replies before the reply tree gets out of hand. Here we've had debates going on for years and because of the forum structure they're easy to follow. As a side point, when we migrated to these new forums, even though it didn't take that long, the mere transition caused many posters to simply not bother making their new account here. I expect the same would happen if we tried to migrate to Reddit.

To me the ideal would be to keep Ornery going, and for it to remain here with the same URL and everything else. If it's just a question of webhosting and the related fees maybe there could be volunteers to chip in for that (I would be one).
Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: Mynnion on August 15, 2021, 10:35:54 AM
I would be sad to see it go but it has been loosing steam for a long time.  I miss the old days when there was a much larger pool of contributors.  I will continue to stalk and occasionally contribute if it continues.  If not I will have to find another diverse community to read and share with.
Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: Crunch on August 15, 2021, 11:41:45 AM
Quote
As a side point, when we migrated to these new forums, even though it didn't take that long, the mere transition caused many posters to simply not bother making their new account here. I expect the same would happen if we tried to migrate to Reddit

You may not be aware but the move to this forum software was used as an opportunity for a purge. There were quite a few active posters that were not allowed to make a new account here.
Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: Fenring on August 15, 2021, 11:48:06 AM
Quote
As a side point, when we migrated to these new forums, even though it didn't take that long, the mere transition caused many posters to simply not bother making their new account here. I expect the same would happen if we tried to migrate to Reddit

You may not be aware but the move to this forum software was used as an opportunity for a purge. There were quite a few active posters that were not allowed to make a new account here.

Well I knew there was a bit of drama with some posters, but beyond that, no, I'm not aware of details. But some posters that seemed to be agreeable and causing no one any problems never made the migration, so I can't believe they weren't allowed over.
Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: Crunch on August 15, 2021, 12:15:24 PM
At least half of those in that category were banned, using IP addresses to ensure compliance as much as possible. Part of every purge here is to make it “balanced” so people that were completely agreeable were kicked out along with “deplorables” as a way to appear fair. The emails notifying the banned were sent out just as the old forum was locked and this one opened and nobody was aware of it unless you were among the purged. It was well timed and executed.

I think this forum could successfully migrate to a modern platform if that type of thing is not done again.
Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: Fenring on August 15, 2021, 12:27:31 PM
I guess I don't really get why any purge was desirable, even from a moderation standpoint. There were so few troublesome posters that I'm astounded at the idea of several people needing to be co-kicked just to appear balanced. How many deplorables could there possibly have been? I don't remember the state of the forum at that point having too many issues.
Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: msquared on August 15, 2021, 12:54:46 PM
If Crunch is refering to the time when I was Mod and banned a bunch of people (for a period of time) it was well before this forum migrated to the current version. It was close to 20 years ago.
Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: Crunch on August 15, 2021, 01:19:38 PM
That was the first mass purge I’m aware of - 8 people banned to cover for getting a couple of conservative voices silenced. It was meant to be permanent until everyone found out and complained. You can remember it how you want but I saw the emails and the so called Ornery 8 thread(s) are still available.

But there were other purges of varying scale, the one during the forum software transition being slightly smaller but probably much more impactful on overall forum viability. This one managed to stay largely secret but you can look at the last few threads on the archived site and contrast with the first few on this one if you care to see who got purged in the name of equity.

The first purge established the precedent, other purges followed that precedent.
Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: rightleft22 on August 15, 2021, 01:36:55 PM
When even a thread about saying farewell becomes a right left thing.
Perhaps its time


I agree with Fenring, and will miss the format
Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: cherrypoptart on August 15, 2021, 02:46:13 PM
I like this style and this place the best. Gonna miss it if it can't be kept. I don't have a Facebook or a Twitter and feel like I'm doing pretty good just having one of the internets. Love all the people here too.

I did used to post on yahoo but that got the old kibosh put on it to help Biden get elected and the sad thing there was there was no warning and all the posts were permanently deleted with no chance to save any.

So the heads up is appreciated as I'll go back and save some posts at least. If there was a way to just zip the whole forum and let people download it that would be cool. How much memory would that take up and is something like that feasible?

I'm a bit of a hoarder and tried the Marie Kondo approach to tidying up and managed to get rid of a lot of stuff but she misses one point. She says to throw out anything that doesn't bring you joy but that doesn't take into account another reason for hoarding which is to keep things that you hope others might find joy in some day. Mostly what I had were my father's old books but I managed to get rid of them because I was able to find digital versions. Marie wouldn't like it and disapproves of digital hoarding as much as physical hoarding but literally roomful's of books can fit onto one little external hard drive so I find that it's a good solution. The point is it would be nice to have something like that for the ornery forums, in remembrance. Maybe future generations will find our thoughts interesting like I would if my great great great etc. grandparents had saved their thoughts on a forum like this hundreds of years ago. Maybe our descendants could look at the information on the flash drive or in the cloud or whatever and see what we were thinking and be as interested and amused and enlightened as I've been by all of y'all.
Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: LetterRip on August 15, 2021, 03:11:50 PM
I'll miss many of you - even those of you who drive me nuts :) ; though I've connected with some on facebook.
Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: Crunch on August 15, 2021, 05:20:08 PM
When even a thread about saying farewell becomes a right left thing.
Perhaps its time

We’re nit talking about a right left thing …. Well, you are.

It’s just the history of the forum and a direct response to a direct observation
Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: TheDrake on August 16, 2021, 05:59:43 AM
I don't think I'll sign up for anything new. I think listening to the presentation of alternative facts and other fantasies isn't adding much value to my life.
Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: NobleHunter on August 16, 2021, 09:15:59 AM
Well, this has been a long time coming. It does sound like a good time to part ways.

I've wondered how this site would finally end. At least it wasn't with a bang.
Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: yossarian22c on August 16, 2021, 02:10:42 PM
I'll be sad to see it go. Thanks to our hosts all these years.
Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: Seriati on August 16, 2021, 02:47:46 PM
Yes, big thanks to our hosts for all of these years.  I'll miss this forum, as frustrating as it has been at times, its rare to find a place that allows for arguments of depth.  FB and Reddit are more sound bite battles than in depth discussions, though the latter does have useful information.  And most forums don't have the diversity of views that this one has had over the years.

I second the request about whether there is a way to down load responses in mass.  Not everything I've written is a pearl, but a lot reflects thought processes and perspectives from specific time periods that I'd enjoy retaining.  I don't journal, but I can flip back to old posts and it's almost like a journal.

I am not sure a new hosting arrangement will be all that successful.  It's inevitable that you'll lose some of the posters, and the site is already critically low on active posters as it is.  Not to mention, the worst times for the site have been those times when one political group or the other has dominated the discussions.  We tend to get dog piles rather than back and forth discussions.  So unless a decent mix moved, the new site would quickly die off.   That said, if we do decide to move, I'd be willing to try it.

As to the "purging" or moderation, I've never felt the heavy hand.  I think I got one warning in the time I've been here, not sure how long that is, but well before we vacated the old forums.  It never seemed to me though that moderation was for political reasons rather than for trolling or personal attacks. 

My one big regret, no one ever noticed that I never got a traditional Ornery welcome when I started posting. 
Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: JoshuaD on August 16, 2021, 03:07:55 PM
I will miss this place. When I first found Ornery in 2003 (?) I was a very different person.  Through the past 18 years, Ornery has always been a background conversation for me.  Sometimes I was more active, other times I was less active, but it was always home.

Thanks for all the conversations.  If you'd like to stay in contact, shoot me an email (OrneryModerator@hotmail.com) and I'll give you my normal forms of contact.  If anyone would like to share their contact information with another person but is hesitant to post it here, feel free email me and I'll try to facilitate that as well.

Thanks for all the good years. It was fun.




Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: msquared on August 16, 2021, 03:25:45 PM
Serati

I apolagize for not doing that.

You are wrong.

Hopefully better late then never.
Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: JoshuaD on August 16, 2021, 05:31:07 PM
I suggest moving the forum to Reddit. You can make it a restricted sub, it’s a modern platform, costing nothing to host. The only reason to maintain this instance is the history, it would be fantastic to migrate to Reddit but that’s probably too much effort for something like this.

I have no interest in being involved in a reddit forum. I agree with Seriati that a forum away from the ornery.org url isn't appealing.

Quote from: Crunch
You may not be aware but the move to this forum software was used as an opportunity for a purge. There were quite a few active posters that were not allowed to make a new account here.

This is completely made up. I worked hard to get as many people to the new forums as possible. I knew that the transition was going to be a point of friction, so I hand-registered dozens of accounts. If we could have stayed on the old software I would have preferred that, but it was failing. We lost some casual posters. I didn't want to lose them, and I have never and continue to have no interest in excluding people for ideological reasons. As moderator, my rule has been very clear and consistent: be civil, don't attack one another, and you are welcome to participate.

Quote from: cherrypoptart
So the heads up is appreciated as I'll go back and save some posts at least. If there was a way to just zip the whole forum and let people download it that would be cool. How much memory would that take up and is something like that feasible?

Not easily. The forum is stored in a database, not in flat files. Tools like curl or wget can be used by someone with some technical background. 

My mind isn't made up yet regarding preserving the forums.  It would take me about 10-20 hours of work, I think, and coordination with the current system admin.  I already have and pay for the web space, so money's not an issue.  I don't mind paying the $10 a year or whatever it is to park the domain.  If I were to make the transition, I would continue to run it exactly how things have been run since I've been mod.

I already have this software running on my server for a play-by-post D&D game, and it's pretty easy to setup.  If I didn't have a 6-month old at home and overflowing work from both my jobs, I'd definitely do the transition.  Given my busy schedule and the limited value to a transition for everyone, I'm not sure it's worth the effort.  I've spent the last week or two trying to convince myself to find the time to do it.

Quote from: Seriati
I am not sure a new hosting arrangement will be all that successful.  It's inevitable that you'll lose some of the posters, and the site is already critically low on active posters as it is

If we were to make the transition, it would be seamless aside from a few days of downtime.  The url, the existing posts, most of the front page, and the users would remain unchanged.  The big difference is we'd have to remove all of OSC's content from the front page.  Otherwise, things would remain unchanged for users.
Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: msquared on August 16, 2021, 06:03:53 PM
We can keep the domain name?
Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: kidv on August 16, 2021, 06:37:34 PM
As I understand, if [you] propose to host the ornery.org on your domain with the site simply transferring in ownership from the Cards to [apparently] you, I would welcome that.  Your proposal seems to indicate that the entire thing could transfer without need to re-register, then I would hope this community could continue as it is.

I would actually also welcome an invitation to people who have been purged in the past, as I have always appreciated their disparate voices which has formed the conversation here.
Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: JoshuaD on August 16, 2021, 09:57:26 PM
We can keep the domain name?

Yeah, we can keep everything if we want.  It'll take a little work, but I've done stuff like this before so I don't think it'll be too hard. 
Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: Crunch on August 17, 2021, 05:09:33 PM


Quote from: Crunch
You may not be aware but the move to this forum software was used as an opportunity for a purge. There were quite a few active posters that were not allowed to make a new account here.

This is completely made up. I worked hard to get as many people to the new forums as possible. I knew that the transition was going to be a point of friction, so I hand-registered dozens of accounts. If we could have stayed on the old software I would have preferred that, but it was failing. We lost some casual posters. I didn't want to lose them, and I have never and continue to have no interest in excluding people for ideological reasons. As moderator, my rule has been very clear and consistent: be civil, don't attack one another, and you are welcome to participate.

Dude, come on.  It happened. I saw the emails. We talked to each other about it just like it's always been done among the banned. Everyone saw the losses, it's easy to go back and figure out who got cut. It's basically ancient history now, you don't have to lie about it. It was a couple of people, maybe 4 total, the most obvious 2 stand out. Everyone, go take a look, do the math.
Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: yossarian22c on August 17, 2021, 05:14:02 PM


Quote from: Crunch
You may not be aware but the move to this forum software was used as an opportunity for a purge. There were quite a few active posters that were not allowed to make a new account here.

This is completely made up. I worked hard to get as many people to the new forums as possible. I knew that the transition was going to be a point of friction, so I hand-registered dozens of accounts. If we could have stayed on the old software I would have preferred that, but it was failing. We lost some casual posters. I didn't want to lose them, and I have never and continue to have no interest in excluding people for ideological reasons. As moderator, my rule has been very clear and consistent: be civil, don't attack one another, and you are welcome to participate.

Dude, come on.  It happened. I saw the emails. We talked to each other about it just like it's always been done among the banned. Everyone saw the losses, it's easy to go back and figure out who got cut. It's basically ancient history now, you don't have to lie about it. It was a couple of people, maybe 4 total, the most obvious 2 stand out. Everyone, go take a look, do the math.

Guess you’re admitting to being the next iteration of G2. Otherwise you’re very knowledgeable of ancient history for someone “new” to the forum.
Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: LetterRip on August 17, 2021, 05:50:52 PM
Crunch has never been subtle about being G2, it is the same beliefs, personality, writing style, etc. Most of use would be quite shocked if it wasn't the same individual.
Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: Crunch on August 17, 2021, 06:22:44 PM
I was not G2. However, I've seen references to him and can see the similarity although his sense of humor is hard to compete with - he was funny. It's hard to be a conservative on a staunchly liberal forum and not take on those qualities. I was, in fact, a member for a long time and stopped posting after the Ornery 8 fiasco. I still cruised by occasionally to see Tom's take or perhaps Redskull. I do miss some of the "old gang" like mv and that absolute freak show Baldar (his final demise was perhaps the funniest thing I ever saw on this forum). Several from that era kept in touch with very occasional emails, mostly around some latest fiasco was embroiling you guys. The move to the new forum being one of those.
Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: TheDeamon on August 17, 2021, 07:52:02 PM
The end of an era to be sure. The technological obsolescence of forum software like this one and the ideologically driven moderation/purging, particularly in the few years before moving to this platform, took a toll. It would be a shame to not learn the lessons of those 2 failures and try to continue this forum with nothing more than new hosting services. If that’s all you’re going to do, then let it die.

I suggest moving the forum to Reddit. You can make it a restricted sub, it’s a modern platform, costing nothing to host. The only reason to maintain this instance is the history, it would be fantastic to migrate to Reddit but that’s probably too much effort for something like this.

If you think the top levels of Reddit's moderation team doesn't engage in ideologically driven moderation/purging, you're in for a rude awakening.. And where have you been for the past year+ on that front that you failed to notice that?
Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: Seriati on August 17, 2021, 09:18:28 PM
Crunch has never been subtle about being G2, it is the same beliefs, personality, writing style, etc. Most of use would be quite shocked if it wasn't the same individual.

I would have been very surprised if G2, G3, Gx turned out to be Crunch.  They do have different styles.  It's not as easy to be sure as it is with some of the clearly dual identity posters from over the years.
Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: oldbrian on August 18, 2021, 08:31:00 AM
Crunch, instead of telling us to look it up and figure out what you are trying to imply (then telling us we got it wrong), how about you just list the 4 - or 2 - 'obvious' users who were not allowed to migrate to the new forum?  And what makes you think they were actively blocked?  I disagree with a lot of things JoshuaD says, but I have never seen that he was the type to lie about something like that.

You also said that this was bigger than the 'ornery 8' fiasco, but now you say it is only 4 people, or maybe even only 2 people.

And if you are indeed not G#, then I must apologize for labelling you such for quite a while now.

Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: Fenring on August 18, 2021, 09:31:56 AM
I don't even know who the 4 - or 2 - people were! I'd kinda like to know, if it's public information. The only one who I remember was getting the ban treatment that I was told about was Rafi (also the supposed new incarnation of G#).
Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: msquared on August 18, 2021, 09:47:52 AM
It shows how some on the right can hold a grudge.  The Ornery 8 was almost 20 years ago. Geez people move on with your lives.
Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: LetterRip on August 18, 2021, 11:07:49 AM
Totally-not-G3-because-if-he-were-G3-he-is-probably-violating-a-trespass-order I definitely believe you aren't G3. 

Quote
However, I've seen references to him and can see the similarity although his sense of humor is hard to compete with - he was funny. It's hard to be a conservative on a staunchly liberal forum and not take on those qualities.

So... you've seen references to him?  Yet you are also familiar with what he wrote to make claims about his 'sense of humor'?  You also keep in touch with people from nearly 20 years ago when there was a brief suspension for a group of people, some of whom quit the forum?

You can't even keep your story straight in the span of a few postings.
Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: JoshuaD on August 18, 2021, 05:52:13 PM
I've decided to do the work to preserve these forums and the front page under the ornery.org URL. I let Kristine Card know and she has asked their system administrator to reach out to me to figure out the logistics.  Maybe we continue to dwindle and the forum dies in six months, or maybe we're still around in ten years. I didn't want to let my temporarily-time-crunched-life be the hurdle to keeping these things running if there are people who still want them.

I expect in a few weeks we'll have a few days "freeze" where these forums go read-only while I do a final database import and the ornery.org domain starts pointing at my server.  We'll also lose any relationship with OSC, the World Watch forum, and all of OSC's front-page content.  Other than that, I hope that everything else will remain unaffected. Emails, passwords, usernames, forum history, etc. should be preserved.

I don't have a plan at this time to archive the old forums (http://www.ornery.org/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi). It is currently archived by the wayback machine (http://web.archive.org/web/20151212030419/http://ornery.org/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi).  If get the time I can figure out how to rip the archives as a bunch of coherent flat files, I'll do that and host it as well. If not, then we'll have to depend on the wayback machine for that preservation.

I'll keep you guys updated as things move forward.   

Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: Fenring on August 18, 2021, 09:38:37 PM
That's great, Joshua, thanks! At least this spurred me on to finally make an Ender series thread :)
Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: yossarian22c on August 19, 2021, 01:34:40 PM
I've decided to do the work to preserve these forums and the front page under the ornery.org URL. I let Kristine Card know and she has asked their system administrator to reach out to me to figure out the logistics.  Maybe we continue to dwindle and the forum dies in six months, or maybe we're still around in ten years. I didn't want to let my temporarily-time-crunched-life be the hurdle to keeping these things running if there are people who still want them.

I expect in a few weeks we'll have a few days "freeze" where these forums go read-only while I do a final database import and the ornery.org domain starts pointing at my server.  We'll also lose any relationship with OSC, the World Watch forum, and all of OSC's front-page content.  Other than that, I hope that everything else will remain unaffected. Emails, passwords, usernames, forum history, etc. should be preserved.

I don't have a plan at this time to archive the old forums (http://www.ornery.org/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi). It is currently archived by the wayback machine (http://web.archive.org/web/20151212030419/http://ornery.org/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi).  If get the time I can figure out how to rip the archives as a bunch of coherent flat files, I'll do that and host it as well. If not, then we'll have to depend on the wayback machine for that preservation.

I'll keep you guys updated as things move forward.

I'm not an expert on the back end servers but have done some webwork. I'm busy as well but let me know if there is something you need help with and if its in my skill set I'll try to find time to help out.
Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: Grant on August 20, 2021, 05:09:33 PM
Uhhhhhhhhhhhh buh bye
Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: TheDeamon on August 20, 2021, 05:52:40 PM
Uhhhhhhhhhhhh buh bye

The King is dead, long live the King.
Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: alai on August 24, 2021, 06:53:01 PM
We'll also lose any relationship with OSC, the World Watch forum, and all of OSC's front-page content.
There's a World Watch forum?  I at first assumed that function (quiescent and theoretical though it be) was covered here!  Though conversely, I first thought the same about "Reviews Everything", and not a flicker of comment here.  Are those both out-of-scope here?  (Or post-server-move, there, indeed.)
Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: alai on August 24, 2021, 06:57:43 PM
It's hard to be a conservative on a staunchly liberal forum and not take on those qualities.
A staunchly liberal forum?  Where's that then?

The wonder of personalised Overton Windows...
Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: Ouija Nightmare on August 27, 2021, 08:07:22 AM
It's hard to be a conservative on a staunchly liberal forum and not take on those qualities.
A staunchly liberal forum?  Where's that then?

The wonder of personalised Overton Windows...

That may well be the most true and funniest thing I’ve ever read here.
Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: msquared on August 27, 2021, 08:10:08 AM
OSC stopped writing the Reviews Everything and the WorldWatch columns when the local paper (The Rhino Times I think) stopped publishing. He was writing those columns for that paper and then posting them here.
Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: alai on August 27, 2021, 04:32:28 PM
That may well be the most true and funniest thing I’ve ever read here.
Then my work here is done. :D
Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: alai on August 27, 2021, 04:44:55 PM
OSC stopped writing the Reviews Everything and the WorldWatch columns when the local paper (The Rhino Times I think) stopped publishing. He was writing those columns for that paper and then posting them here.
Yup, the Rhino Times.  Certainly a local paper.  Greensboro's second(?) finest!  Still publishing online, but wound up their print edition in 2018 (judging by Wikipedia, which supplies a few further...  colourful details).  I think if I were a Guilford County resident, I'd take the News and Times.
Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: Kelcimer on August 30, 2021, 04:30:55 AM
What a time to randomly pop in.

I hope the Cards let the site continue with OrneryMod. When I signed back up this past year I had a great time for a couple of weeks revisiting so many old threads. I would imagine that there are some number of folks like me who might swing on by to check out the forum and walk down memory lane.

I never did do what was necessary to create an archived version of the website. It's more technical than what is my normal my wheelhouse, life is going on, and it fell through the cracks. If the Cards do not give it to OrneryMod, then a complete archived version (scrubbed for user info of course) for folks to download would be pretty sweet.

It shows how some on the right can hold a grudge.  The Ornery 8 was almost 20 years ago. Geez people move on with your lives.

It shows how PEOPLE can hold a grudge. Left/right doesn't really matter to that.

The Ornery 8 Fiasco and various other flair ups in the 2000's really shaped my approach to moderating content on any kind of forum. Not that I have had to do a lot of that, but it has come up. Communication is key.
Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: Kelcimer on August 31, 2021, 01:10:49 AM
My one big regret, no one ever noticed that I never got a traditional Ornery welcome when I started posting.

Welcome to Ornery. You're wrong.  :D
Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: Kelcimer on August 31, 2021, 01:16:44 AM

I don't have a plan at this time to archive the old forums (http://www.ornery.org/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi). It is currently archived by the wayback machine (http://web.archive.org/web/20151212030419/http://ornery.org/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi).  If get the time I can figure out how to rip the archives as a bunch of coherent flat files, I'll do that and host it as well. If not, then we'll have to depend on the wayback machine for that preservation.

I'll keep you guys updated as things move forward.

I have tried the Wayback Machine and it isn't as good as all that.

It is old forums that I am concerned with, given as it includes all the classic threads I remember. I think that a lot of folks would want them preserved, especially since they include the bulk of the content on the site.

What would you need in order to back those up and make them available to everybody else as flat files? Would you be open to getting assistance with that?
Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: JoshuaD on August 31, 2021, 10:02:24 AM
If you're able to rip them I'd be glad to host them along with the new forums. Just some flat files that have good inter-linking would do the trick.
Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: JoshuaD on August 31, 2021, 10:04:49 AM
As I mentioned, the old database seems to be corrupt and/or the software is failing. It will probably be pretty hard to get a good rip of the site.

I will ask the system admin for a copy of that database and that software as well. I'll keep it somewhere and if/when life slows down I'll play with it and see if I can do anything to get it up and running.

Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: Kelcimer on August 31, 2021, 08:55:22 PM
If you're able to rip them I'd be glad to host them along with the new forums. Just some flat files that have good inter-linking would do the trick.

My friend tells me that there is a way to create copy of the Old Forums that would not be dependent upon a database. It just need the Old Forums online to copy it. If the Cards could be patent for a week or so that would be great. I need to install some software and the start copying the Old Forums in sections. I am working through system capability issues with my computer to run the software, but hope to be able to try his solution by the weekend. If successful then I'll be happy to send it to you.
Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: alai on August 31, 2021, 09:22:08 PM
Web-crawling works great in the case where the database and the software works well enough to serve the pages, but you don't want to depend on it doing it for too much longer (or even if you quite understand exactly how it's doing it -- *makes sign of COBOL warding*).  If the software is broken, the better solution may be the offline port that Joshua describes, especially as backends are often standardised to a reasonable extent.  If the database itself if significantly corrupted, that's the point where people start sucking their teeth.  ("Just can't get the parts any more."  "Should have come to me last week!")
Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: Kelcimer on September 05, 2021, 03:20:02 PM
The cloning of the Old Forums is running.

I don't know if this will producing anything better than what JoshuaD can do with the the database for it, but it will be there as an option. Better to have it and not need it, then to need it and not have it, as it were.

The process is running slowly. There are a lot of files. It is presently 1/5th of the way through and has been running for almost two days. So if the forums can stay up through next weekend, that would be great.
Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: JoshuaD on September 05, 2021, 09:25:48 PM
That's a really long time, I wonder why that's happening.

We're going to be up here for a while longer.  I'm still waiting for the files for the new forums. I spoke with the current admin last week and he said he'd have it to me soonish.
Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: Kelcimer on September 05, 2021, 11:31:47 PM
Hello Joshua!

I wonder that as well. The program is supposed to follow every link on the forum and there are a lot of links on every page. Every member name is a link, and there is the "logged' link on each comment. Also, there are so many interconnected links. Like on a five page thread there will be the links to the other four pages at both the top and bottom of each page. So that is eight links per page on a five page thread and all of them are being checked. I understand that it makes a page for every link, so as that multiple pages have links to the same page, that winds up creating duplicate pages which it will de-duplicate after it has downloaded everything. And the forum ran for 15 years and there was a lot of interconnectedness. Maybe the fact that the Old Forums are still unstable is a factor as well.

Good to hear that we have more time.  :D
Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: Greg Davidson on September 06, 2021, 10:42:33 PM
My thanks to the Cards, and the rest of you here. I did listen and think about what each of you said, even those who were fervently arguing positions different from my own.

Stay well, and enjoy all the remaining days of your lives.
Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: Fenring on September 06, 2021, 10:56:50 PM
My thanks to the Cards, and the rest of you here. I did listen and think about what each of you said, even those who were fervently arguing positions different from my own.

Stay well, and enjoy all the remaining days of your lives.

How's the book coming?
Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: Greg Davidson on September 07, 2021, 02:33:01 PM
I started working with the acquisitions editor who originally bought and published The Red Tent for St. Martins Press (The Red Tent being perhaps the exemplar of successful mainstream biblical fiction). Her guidance was credible but pessimistic: the genre expectations for mainstream biblical fiction are to take an obscure female character and give her life while emphasizing themes of sisterhood and women's empowerment. That's what the target audience is looking for, and thus that's what publishers are looking for.

That's a reasonable expectation, and I could even envision such a novel (I'd love to write a novel about Jocheved, the last of the long-lived people in the bible and the only woman to be described as living for centuries). Next novel I will definitely think of the target market before starting! As for what to do with Book of Shem, I'm torn: part of me wants to finish the book the way I want, even if I need to self-publish, just so it can exist in the world (just this week I started a draft in the first person, to clarify and strengthen Shem's emotional depth). 

Part of me also wants to start something fresh with sales in mind. A friend of mine, a former VP of Avionics at Space-X, is finishing his first novel and he has a killer query letter (a launch vehicle is stolen in flight...). I have a pretty deep background with the James Webb Space Telescope (I was the program manager a NASA HQ for the first Hubble replacement instruments and later the Chandra X-ray Observatory, and when I started working for TRW it was to pull together a team to win that contract - I was even the deputy program manager for the job for a few years) and it's striking me that with launch coming up in the next few months, that background would have some cachet for a science fiction novel. But the innate contrarian in me would only get excited about a plot that shows how it is to actually build something like JWST (I loved Andy Weir's latest, but all science fiction authors seem clueless about how large organizations actually work to solve difficult challenges)
Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: Fenring on September 07, 2021, 03:37:20 PM
I'm torn: part of me wants to finish the book the way I want, even if I need to self-publish, just so it can exist in the world
[...]
Part of me also wants to start something fresh with sales in mind. A friend of mine, a former VP of Avionics at Space-X, is finishing his first novel and he has a killer query letter (a launch vehicle is

For what it's worth, I've also experienced the dilemma between thinking of what will be commercially attractive, compared to what your artistic instinct tell you needs to be done. In my case, in the theatre. There are two sides to it - a prisoner's (of the public) dilemma, of sorts. Either you can do what you felt compelled to start, knowing it might amount to nothing, but also knowing you did it for you, not for others (always a half-truth); but with the chance that when something of quality comes into existence it can create its own market. This is what happens whenever something new comes along that happens to end up successful. And the other side of it is to avoid wasting time on non-viable projects, and to create something to fill an apparent niche, and hope to grow into it spiritually; but with the chance that even if you follow a template to maximize commercial success it may still fall flat on its face. And at that point, why care at all what the public wanted after all? So that's a tough one. Most artistic projects don't become commercial successes, and it's only correlated slightly to their merit.

My very personal tendency would be to do the thing I feel needs doing, not what the public will receive best. But then again, I'm not famous. So don't take this as career advice, more like, a slice of an Ornery poster's life.
Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: Fenring on September 07, 2021, 03:45:40 PM
the genre expectations for mainstream biblical fiction are to take an obscure female character and give her life while emphasizing themes of sisterhood and women's empowerment. That's what the target audience is looking for, and thus that's what publishers are looking for.

Since I realize my last post was mostly about me, rather than about you, I thought I'd throw this in: if stories about female empowerment and sisterhood were what you desperately wanted to write about, why wouldn't you already be doing so? I know plenty of people in the arts passionate about this subject and (no offense intended) no one needed to suggest to them to write stories about that; they can hardly stop themselves finding those themes in every piece they encounter. So I would think long and hard about whether it's ideal (or even decent?) to take on a topic that doesn't already speak deeply to you, that you can speak with some genuine intuitions about (as you suggest about cooperative engineering in sci-fi). I don't know if the feminine empowerment theme does or doesn't fill this bill for you, but what I always ask artists is: why should we see you perform, or read your writing? Something about it has to be uniquely something you could give that no one else could have. So what is that for you? (rhetorical) We want Greg Davidson, not someone else.
Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: cherrypoptart on September 07, 2021, 06:57:43 PM
I've been holding off on saying this since I didn't want to jinx it but it's looking solid enough now.

Re: Farewell to Ornery

“Good news. The reports of my death are greatly exaggerated." - Ornery.org
Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: Greg Davidson on September 08, 2021, 12:27:37 PM
Thanks, Fenrig.

I think I could "yes, and..." this - finish off Book of Shem in a way that satisfies me (for example, I've been targeting a trilogy of 80K word novels and selling the first as a standalone because that's the length expectation for a first time author, but it's really one story that I could probably tell in about 180K words). But at the same time, pick a topic that both energizes me and has a recognizable genre home.
Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: Seriati on September 08, 2021, 05:46:28 PM
Her guidance was credible but pessimistic: the genre expectations for mainstream biblical fiction are to take an obscure female character and give her life while emphasizing themes of sisterhood and women's empowerment. That's what the target audience is looking for, and thus that's what publishers are looking for.

You may want to consider trying a publisher in a different genre.  Recast it as a fantasy based on a biblical story and you could pitch it through a fantasy publisher to an entirely different target market.  I wouldn't be surprised at all to see a book like that in a Fantasy section and never once walked into  biblical fiction section.

Quote
A friend of mine, a former VP of Avionics at Space-X, is finishing his first novel and he has a killer query letter (a launch vehicle is stolen in flight...).

Isn't that the literal plot of the James Bond movie Moonraker?  ;)

Quote
...but all science fiction authors seem clueless about how large organizations actually work to solve difficult challenges)

That actually applies to all fiction authors, and a good number of non-fiction authors as well.  It's amazing how often the author's own contributions to a project were the "key" without which it all would have failed. 
Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: Fenring on September 08, 2021, 11:12:25 PM
But at the same time, pick a topic that both energizes me and has a recognizable genre home.

I hope you can find that happy marriage. I've done some writing (theatre material and non-fiction for teaching purposes), never attempted a novel, but I understand that pushing through a project that big can be like torture at times. I imagine it helps a lot if it's something you've got to write. In my case, some of my bigger writing/editing projects only got completed in due time because I had hard deadlines that were immovable.
Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: TheDeamon on September 10, 2021, 09:45:56 AM
the genre expectations for mainstream biblical fiction are to take an obscure female character and give her life while emphasizing themes of sisterhood and women's empowerment. That's what the target audience is looking for, and thus that's what publishers are looking for.

Since I realize my last post was mostly about me, rather than about you, I thought I'd throw this in: if stories about female empowerment and sisterhood were what you desperately wanted to write about, why wouldn't you already be doing so? I know plenty of people in the arts passionate about this subject and (no offense intended) no one needed to suggest to them to write stories about that; they can hardly stop themselves finding those themes in every piece they encounter. So I would think long and hard about whether it's ideal (or even decent?) to take on a topic that doesn't already speak deeply to you, that you can speak with some genuine intuitions about (as you suggest about cooperative engineering in sci-fi). I don't know if the feminine empowerment theme does or doesn't fill this bill for you, but what I always ask artists is: why should we see you perform, or read your writing? Something about it has to be uniquely something you could give that no one else could have. So what is that for you? (rhetorical) We want Greg Davidson, not someone else.

The thing that get caught up in the process about those "passionate about female empowerment" is that many of them end up delving too deep. Either they end up with something only others who are "equally passionate" on the subject matter can begin to decipher(a minor in "women's studies" shouldn't be required), or they simply end up writing screeds that send many readers running for any of a number of reasons.
Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: Kelcimer on September 19, 2021, 12:48:10 AM
Just to say, the web crawl is still proceeding. There are a lot of links and it is proceeding slowly.
Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: JoshuaD on September 24, 2021, 03:36:24 PM
Just to say, the web crawl is still proceeding. There are a lot of links and it is proceeding slowly.

I am worried that you are ripping the entire internet.  There's no way it should take 14 days rip a single forum.
Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: TheDrake on September 24, 2021, 03:42:46 PM
Just to say, the web crawl is still proceeding. There are a lot of links and it is proceeding slowly.

I am worried that you are ripping the entire internet.  There's no way it should take 14 days rip a single forum.

Just speculating, it could easily take that long if it renders each page by independent database access and it is single threaded.

In my experience as a technical manager, anyone who claims something "should never take that long" is mistaken about the scope of the task or the resources available.
Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: LetterRip on September 24, 2021, 04:07:35 PM
What crawler are you using?

Is it traversing via a link traversal search (pick a start page, gathers all links on page, traverses each link)
Or page index increment?

for instance the current ornery pages are formatted as

Code: [Select]
http://www.ornery.org/forum/index.php/topic,TOPIC_ID.PG_NUM.html
where TOPIC_ID starts at 6 and increments per topic post; and PG_NUM is 1, 50, 100, 150, 200, 250, etc with the 50 incremented for each new page.

so would be pretty trivial to index.

Not sure what the old forum indexing was setup as.

Looks like the other forum is

Code: [Select]
http://www.ornery.org/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/6/TOPIC_ID.html
and

Code: [Select]
http://www.ornery.org/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/6/TOPIC_ID/PAGE_ID.html
TOPIC_ID starts at 1321 (didn't check all numbers below that)
there are some discontinuties - but goes up to about 17000.

If the first page, then uses the first format with just the TOPIC_ID, else PAGE_ID is 2,3,4,5 etc.

Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: LetterRip on September 24, 2021, 04:27:19 PM
Assuming average number of 2 pages per topic, and 3 seconds per page (to avoid throttling) that would take 27 hours for all pages (mean of 2 pages might seem low, but most of our history 80% of topics only had a single page of replies).
Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: LetterRip on September 24, 2021, 04:30:12 PM
The archives also have their own set of archives but they are much smaller.  7 pages of topics (2002-2006) but the main archive is 2002-2015 (383 pages of topics).  Makes me curious if they cover the same content.
Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: Kelcimer on September 30, 2021, 08:40:27 PM
I wasn't able to get it to work on my old computer (it is a decade old). My friend was kind enough to run it on his computer.

There are about 615,000 comments, and if each button on a comment counts as a link that needs to be checked, then that is 6 links per comment. That would mean checking about about 3.6 million links. A back of the envelope calculation for every other link on each page would bring up total number of links that need to be checked to about 4 million. Does that sound about right?

I don't know why it should take this long, but my friend indicates the program is still chugging away.
Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: Kelcimer on October 14, 2021, 10:57:00 PM
Good news/stupid news

Good news: I opened the clone website in a browser and looking around for a while. It looks like it is all there. So if they were holding off on tranfering the website or anything because of this, they need hold off no longer.

Stupid news: The file size of the whole thing is insanely huge. Compressed it is 4gigs, uncompressed it is about 50 gigs. I was trying to figure out why it was so large and it looks like it duplicated every page every couple of days. So it technically isn't a copy of the archives, but many, many copies of the archives. I made the mistake of opening a folder window to look at the pages to figure out why it was so large. Turns out Finder on a ten year old mac is not up to rendering the absurd number of duplicated file names in one window. Finder got hot and was acting weird so I did a shut down/restart and my computer did not want to restart.

When I get my new computer I plan to see about deleting the dupes, get it to a reasonable file size, and make the clone of the archives available to JoshuaD.

Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: cherrypoptart on October 15, 2021, 05:32:05 AM
I've seen some people if they want to share files with everyone and anyone, they put it in a Google drive on kind of a throwaway account. It looks like you get 15 gigs free so I wonder if that could be an option to just let all of us and anyone else who wants it have a copy.
Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: LetterRip on October 15, 2021, 01:23:46 PM
Writing an algorithm that dedups them probably wouldn't be hard.

if you run this bit of python, you can just send me the file created.  This assumes they are all html files in folders, if they are zipped, or in a database or something, or use a different file type, will need more information...

Code: [Select]
#paste into a text file and name it - list_files.py
#then replace path and out_folder_path with valid paths inside the quotation marks
#run by typing python list_files.py on a terminal prompt
import os
path = r"/path/to/root/folder_name" #navigate to the folder that contains the folder then copy and replace the file path in this file.
out_folder_path = r"/path/to/write/files" #replace this path with the folder you want the file list_of_fnames.txt written to
#then email me the list_of_fnames.txt

path_list = []
for folder, subfolder, fnames in os.walk(path):
  for fname in fnames:
    if fname.endswith(".html"):
      path_list.append(folder+os.sep+fname)
  with open(out_folder_path+os.sep+"list_of_fnames.txt", "w") as f:
    f.write("\n".join(path_list)
 
Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: Kelcimer on October 15, 2021, 05:27:55 PM
I've seen some people if they want to share files with everyone and anyone, they put it in a Google drive on kind of a throwaway account. It looks like you get 15 gigs free so I wonder if that could be an option to just let all of us and anyone else who wants it have a copy.

I like that idea.

LetterRip,

It appeared that the dublicate file names were like so:

filename.html
filename-0002.html
filename-0003.html
filename-0004.html
etc....
Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: LetterRip on October 16, 2021, 07:29:36 AM
LetterRip,

It appeared that the dublicate file names were like so:

filename.html
filename-0002.html
filename-0003.html
filename-0004.html
etc....

Have you checked that the 0002, 0003 etc aren't the 'page 2' and page 3' etc?
Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: Kelcimer on October 16, 2021, 02:23:52 PM
I don't think that is the case. I wasn't able to confirm by directly looking at the files, because my mac didn't function that long. I want to say it went up to about 0036 on every file that I could see. We didn't have many threads go as high as 30 pages.
Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: Kelcimer on November 07, 2021, 01:52:00 AM
Okay. I have my new computer and attempted to look at the files in the folder to see what was going on.

The way the file names went were like so:

Quote
ultimatebb.html
ultimatebb0000-2.html
ultimatebb0000-3.html
ultimatebb0000-4.html
ultimatebb0000-5.html
ultimatebb0000-6.html
ultimatebb0000-7.html

[...]

ultimatebb0000-37.html
ultimatebb0000-38.html
ultimatebb0000-39.html
ultimatebb0000-40.html
ultimatebb0000-41.html
ultimatebb0000-42.html
ultimatebb0000-43.html

Of those 43 pages, the original and #37 were actual pages. The rest were 10KB and say "You are not logged in. You must be logged in (and registered) to perform this function"

It looks like it kept returning to each page to check those links again and again.

I was looking around in the folder and the thing locked up my new Mac Mini and it became hot to the touch. I had to shut down my brand new computer because of what it was doing. No wonder it took out my old computer.

Trying to figure out how to cut down the the overall file size is not readily apparent to me. I want to share the clone with anyone who wants it, but I wouldn't want this version to be the one shared. It needs to loose a lot of file size.

Anybody have any advice? Anybody want to take a direct crack at it?
Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: LetterRip on November 07, 2021, 09:23:24 AM
Email me two of the pages with the bad information and one good page, and I'll send you a script that delete all of the bad pages.

Are the originals still up?
Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: LetterRip on November 07, 2021, 10:08:40 AM
Hmm looks like the originals are not up anymore...  So hopefully most of the content was scraped...
Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: Kelcimer on November 08, 2021, 12:42:30 AM
I sent you an email.

At about 50 gigs, I should hope that all pages were got at least once.

There were some pages that were of a single post with a link to the page that the post appeared on. I don't know how much to make of that. Which is to say there may be more oddities that need addressing.

That said, removing all of the "You are not logged in" pages would be a good start.

Thank you!
Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: Kelcimer on November 11, 2021, 01:42:05 PM
LetterRip.

For clarity, I sent an email through the website. I do not know with the change over if that function still works.

It does not allow attachments so I included my email address. Let me know if you received it.

John
Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: LetterRip on November 11, 2021, 02:29:53 PM
It worked, replied via email...
Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: fizz on December 05, 2021, 06:02:56 AM
People, I'm saying goodbye to everybody.
I've never been a particularly active contributor, because English is not my native language and writing long essays in it is quite tiring for me, and with my work I honestly do not have much time to dedicate to this, but I've lurked around here for about 20 years by now.

I arrived here like may because I liked the first couple Ender novels, was a bit shocked by learning the real OSC politics, but still remained because it was for me an invaluable insight in the way of thinking on your side of the pond, like the British would say.
Also, I appreciated the relatively civil and and well argumented style of discourse: I'm sorry to say that most of my country forums tended more to the youtube comment section kind of name-calling, than true discussion.

I had almost abandoned it, when the need to try to understand the Trump phenomenon drove me back: it was such an utterly incomprehensible thing that i had to see from the.. keyboards.. of real americans what kind of thoughts passed in the mind of a Trump supporter.

But now, I admit I'm getting tired. I'm burned out, feel the need to argue when I read some things (https://xkcd.com/386/) but I'm at the same time getting more and more resigned to the futility of any attempt at discussion.
Having a novax conspiracy theorist old father also makes that feeling hit a bit too close to home.
It may be also age, work stress and/or pandemic burn out, but nowaday when I start discussing I take it... personally.. it stresses me out, it tend to make me dis proportionally angry: where years ago I would have enjoyed it (even if as I said i was unable to do it much here), now it sends me in a bad place.

I'm thankfully already not on any social network (no twitter, no facebook, no instagram or anything else), my only media presence is here and a couple of news sites comment sections.

Sooo, i'm publicly committing myself to stop coming here and commenting. 20 years ago when I started coming here I had just quit smoking, and it kept till now, i hope I will be as good as that with internet commentary too :-p

Goodbye, and thanks for all the fish! (cit.)
Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: cherrypoptart on December 05, 2021, 12:49:25 PM
I enjoyed the additional European perspective. Take a break for as long as you like but just always know that there's a key under the mat and you're welcome back anytime for as long or as short of a time as you'd like.

On the bright side, it is something to be thankful for that the Farewell to Ornery thread can now be repurposed for people saying farewell, hopefully just for a while, as opposed to all of us having to say goodbye to Ornery forever.

Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: JoshuaD on December 05, 2021, 03:17:27 PM
Goodbye Fizz. I hope you stay around to finish our conversation in the God thread, but I understand if not.
Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: JoshuaD on December 05, 2021, 03:18:03 PM
FWIW: I often take long bouts of breaks from posting. It can be exhausting. But I come back for a thread here and there, and like having it for that much.
Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: rightleft22 on December 06, 2021, 11:04:02 AM
Quote
But now, I admit I'm getting tired. I'm burned out, feel the need to argue when I read some things but I'm at the same time getting more and more resigned to the futility of any attempt at discussion.

Curious how many feel this way.

I used to enjoy a good debate if mostly as a observer. Now what passes for debate leaves me feeling discouraged if not angry.

I'm not sure how we got to a place where our opinions had to matter and that they only matter if everyone agrees with how 'I' see things.

My opinions have never changed anything on the macro level, life let alone most others don't give a rat's ass what I think. I don't want to be the angry old man or crazy uncle so I let it go.   

Add to that, I had to accept that I'm a horrible communicator and seldom articulates my thoughts clearly. 
Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: TheDeamon on December 08, 2021, 12:40:36 PM
For me, it shifted long ago. I largely don't engage in such discussions to change people's minds.

I engage in order to gain at least a modicum of understanding as to where they're coming from on their side of things. Especially with how big tech has tried to stuff all of us into information bubbles, asking questions of people in different bubbles does have a decent chance of revealing new information.
Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: JoshuaD on December 08, 2021, 03:37:56 PM
Yeah, I've retreated from trying to change people's minds. I mostly post to crowd-source for criticisms of what I believe and to be forced to explicitly articulate some things. I am happy if that process is helpful for other people and I try to write to maximize the chance that it is, but it's not really my goal most of the time.
Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: Wayward Son on December 08, 2021, 03:39:32 PM
Quote
I'm not sure how we got to a place where our opinions had to matter and that they only matter if everyone agrees with how 'I' see things.

I believe the problem is that the stakes have become higher.

Before, we just disagreed, but we all believed that most people followed the rules.  Majorities won, tempered by the courts, but there was always the next election to turn things around if necessary.  One could always expect things to go back to the norm.

Now it feels like it is winner-take-all.  That those in power will manipulate the system to make themselves permanently in power.  That they will re-write the rules, break them if necessary, or just destroy those who try to impose the rules on them.  It has become all-out war.

Those who support such people are an actual danger to everyone else.  They provide them cover and power, giving them the opportunity to solidify their power, to make it permanent.  So it's no longer just another opinion to win out in the arena of opinions.  It is a side that is trying to oppress and destroy all opposition.

Admittedly, some things are still opinions. :)  But it is increasingly becoming a war of sides.  And how can you tolerate the "other side" when it's goal is to destroy everything you believe?  :'(
Title: Re: Farewell to Ornery
Post by: alai on December 22, 2021, 04:36:48 AM
“Good news. The reports of my death are greatly exaggerated." - Ornery.org
Twain, of course, wasn't so immodest as to claim the first part!