The Ornery American Forums

General Category => General Comments => Topic started by: Kelcimer on September 12, 2021, 04:14:24 AM

Post by: Kelcimer on September 12, 2021, 04:14:24 AM
CANZUK would be an economic and military alliance between Britain, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand.

Here is a brief video to give you the idea:

My initial opinion is that this would be strategically to the benefit of the United States. A robust CANZUK would allow the United States to take more of a backseat in the international stage and be more properly non-interventionist, which I think we need to do, making it easier for us to consolidate our foreign policy. I think it would be a better ally than the European Union has or could be. Fast forward a decade or so, and it could serve as a buffer between us and various regions of the rest of the world, and be a good partner when the United States needs to mobilize. It would basically give us more options in our foreign policy stances.

What are your opinions?
Title: Re: CANZUK
Post by: cherrypoptart on September 12, 2021, 10:01:00 AM
It's a good idea to frame it as being of strategic benefit to America for the sake of politeness but it's certainly a good idea regardless because America just proved to the world, to all of our allies and enemies alike, that we are unreliable and anyone counting on us to defend them is sheer suicide.

So it's definitely a good idea for any country that is looking to America to help provide for their security, quite simply: do not. Make your alliances where you can and be ready to protect your interests because America doesn't have anyone's interests at heart, not yours, not theirs, and no, not even our own. Relying on us would be like for home security depending on a senile old man who doesn't know what state he's in or what office he's running for.
Title: Re: CANZUK
Post by: Fenring on September 12, 2021, 10:15:16 AM
I'm not sure, personally. On an international level you're stronger if allied, but stronger isn't always good. The U.S. has been plenty strong, as there have been strategic gains moving alongside moral losses. When you can do a thing there's a temptation to actually do it, which is to your detriment when all sorts of bad things you previously couldn't do are now within your power. Not sure if this is an argument for smaller government or even smaller countries, but it's just an observation.

From the perspective of these commonwealth countries themselves, I think it's a mistake personally. All four of them have got significant authoritarian tendencies, maybe the UK in the lead here but I suppose it's close. All four countries have a tacit belief that anything the government does is ok; there is no pushback like there is in the U.S. against overreach, unconstitutional ideas, and loss of freedoms. The basic belief that government is your master is an inheritance from the British Empire, one which was never cast off as the Americans did. As a result, the stronger the government, the more entitled it is to create ways of life by fiat. And a 4-way alliance seems me likely to embolden them even further to start having policy fall in lockstep among them. This might well take the from of 'greatest common denominator', meaning the most extreme policy taken by one will be adopted by the others. I don't think anyone wants to see that, and in terms of the U.S., if there is already pressure for measures like lockdowns, there would be more pressure if the U.S. major partner "British alliance" is doing it.
Title: Re: CANZUK
Post by: TheDeamon on September 12, 2021, 10:01:09 PM
Doesn't work without the United States to anchor it, and even that is problematic given that New Zealand has completely lost the plot and taken a page from "Fortress America" mindset from the 19th century and one-upped it by dismantling much of their Navy and Air Force.

Why bother? The next closest major power in the region is Australia and they're on friendly terms with them, and after that the only other major power who could meaningfully threaten them at present is the United States, which is unlikely in the extreme.

Except they're still enjoying their honeymoon period of deep trade ties with China and they're being willfully blind to China's expanding Blue Water Navy capabilities, and efforts to secure friendly ports on their proverbial doorstep. Strategically they're probably right to not be too worried about what China might do, their worst case is possibly being cut off from the rest of the world, in some potential conflict that would need to happen 20+ years from now, so again, nothing for them to be worried about now. China and the US will probably go to war with each other long before that becomes a serious concern for them, and they can tsk at both sides over it.