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General Category => General Comments => Topic started by: TheDrake on February 07, 2022, 12:21:00 PM

Title: Freedom Convoy
Post by: TheDrake on February 07, 2022, 12:21:00 PM
The people who get real mad at BLM for blocking roads for a period of hours are strangely silent about roads blocked in Ottawa for days on end.
Title: Re: Freedom Convoy
Post by: ScottF on February 07, 2022, 12:47:41 PM
I'm mixed on the road blocking issue. How many businesses have the truckers burned or destroyed so far?
Title: Re: Freedom Convoy
Post by: TheDrake on February 07, 2022, 02:07:05 PM
I don't know, let's see how those truckers react when one of their guys gets choked to death by cops in the process of arresting them.
Title: Re: Freedom Convoy
Post by: yossarian22c on February 07, 2022, 03:08:36 PM
The people who get real mad at BLM for blocking roads for a period of hours are strangely silent about roads blocked in Ottawa for days on end.

Sarcastic (but kind of true) answer. American's don't care what happens in Ottawa. Half of people on the street probably couldn't tell you it's in Canada.
Title: Re: Freedom Convoy
Post by: ScottF on February 07, 2022, 03:23:52 PM
The people who get real mad at BLM for blocking roads for a period of hours are strangely silent about roads blocked in Ottawa for days on end.

Sarcastic (but kind of true) answer. American's don't care what happens in Ottawa. Half of people on the street probably couldn't tell you it's in Canada.

Whether or not they grasp it's in Canada, I think quite a few Americans definitely care about this particular situation in Ottawa.

As a Canadian, I've been wondering just how far a traditionally compliant populace could be pushed before the push came back.

Luckily they have a strong PM who instills confidence by leading from the front and actually communicates with the people.

From what I can tell he is apparently still hiding somewhere outside of town in a "secret location". For covid safety lol.
Title: Re: Freedom Convoy
Post by: TheDrake on February 07, 2022, 03:30:53 PM
The people who get real mad at BLM for blocking roads for a period of hours are strangely silent about roads blocked in Ottawa for days on end.

Sarcastic (but kind of true) answer. American's don't care what happens in Ottawa. Half of people on the street probably couldn't tell you it's in Canada.

Apparently a good portion of the protest is populated by Americans, so they found it. Or should we call it an illegal occupation rather than a protest, like when it was occupy wall Street in a park?
Title: Re: Freedom Convoy
Post by: NobleHunter on February 07, 2022, 03:31:17 PM
Apparently some Americans have been funding or trying to fund the truckers. Their gofundme got shut down but they may have other ways.

My hypothesis is the cops are more hesitant to confront the truckers because they might not be able to control the level of escalation. Who knows how the truckers will respond to a serious police presence? Some of them have fond notions about overthrowing the government. They're currently at the "make unlikely requests of the Government" stage but they might decide to stop just talking about dissolving Parliament.

And there's no political advantage in getting the protests to turn violent.
Title: Re: Freedom Convoy
Post by: ScottF on February 07, 2022, 03:47:31 PM
Apparently some Americans have been funding or trying to fund the truckers. Their gofundme got shut down but they may have other ways.
I'd need to see some evidence of this US influence before having an opinion on it. Not saying it might not be true, but it feels like a very easy and convenient "apparently".

An Ontario judge has just prohibited "honking" for 10 days in Ottawa, lol. I think the ruling says you can still honk but have to lean out of your window and say "sorry" each time you honk.
Title: Re: Freedom Convoy
Post by: ScottF on February 07, 2022, 03:50:33 PM
And there's no political advantage in getting the protests to turn violent.

100% this. A strong leader would be down there or at a minimum address the situation head-on. Daily. Unfortunately, Canada has a boy puppet whose biggest assets are a toothsome smile and nice hair.
Title: Re: Freedom Convoy
Post by: TheDrake on February 07, 2022, 04:13:23 PM
And there's no political advantage in getting the protests to turn violent.

100% this. A strong leader would be down there or at a minimum address the situation head-on. Daily. Unfortunately, Canada has a boy puppet whose biggest assets are a toothsome smile and nice hair.

What would be the point? That would signal he's going to negotiate their demands. It's not like they are going to give up and go home because he comes and smiles at them. There is no negotiation. The policy isn't changing. And that means he gains nothing from making it look like they had any impact whatsoever that would encourage them to continue.

Quote
I'd need to see some evidence of this US influence before having an opinion on it. Not saying it might not be true, but it feels like a very easy and convenient "apparently".

Okay, here you go. 

Quote
Anti–vaccine mandate protesters in Ottawa received some help from their neighbors to the south, the Ottawa police chief said Wednesday, with a "significant element" from the U.S. involved with funding and planning the event.

Title: Re: Freedom Convoy
Post by: TheDrake on February 07, 2022, 04:22:00 PM
OH, and in case you think maybe the police chief is just making that up.

Quote
On multiple crowdfunding platforms, people from around the globe — often directed to the cause by American far-right influencers like Dan Bongino and Ben Shapiro — have collectively donated millions of dollars in support of the Canadian movement and started similar crowdfunding campaigns for like-minded protests in U.S. states and European countries.

"[R]ightwing U.S. political figures and content creators … really gave it a boost that made it global," said Ciaran O'Connor, an analyst from the Institute for Strategic Dialogue, a think tank that tracks online extremism and which has been following the Canadian protests against the Covid-19 restrictions.
Title: Re: Freedom Convoy
Post by: NobleHunter on February 07, 2022, 04:51:24 PM
100% this. A strong leader would be down there or at a minimum address the situation head-on. Daily. Unfortunately, Canada has a boy puppet whose biggest assets are a toothsome smile and nice hair.

What would addressing the situation head-on look like? Meeting with the protesters would grant them legitimacy which would make them more likely to stay rather than leave. Their demands are either delusional, not federal jurisdiction, or require the US to agree. More direct action would involve escalating the situation precipitously which no rational person wants.
Title: Re: Freedom Convoy
Post by: ScottF on February 07, 2022, 05:18:34 PM
100% this. A strong leader would be down there or at a minimum address the situation head-on. Daily. Unfortunately, Canada has a boy puppet whose biggest assets are a toothsome smile and nice hair.

What would addressing the situation head-on look like? Meeting with the protesters would grant them legitimacy which would make them more likely to stay rather than leave. Their demands are either delusional, not federal jurisdiction, or require the US to agree. More direct action would involve escalating the situation precipitously which no rational person wants.

To start, it would look like the leader of the country simply acknowledging the largest civic protest in modern Canadian history instead of literally hiding like a coward. He could start by addressing the protesters directly, acknowledging their stated cause and getting clarity on what specifically they would like to see happen.

High-functioning leaders are capable of this kind of dialogue, whether or not it immediately leads to anything substantive.  It can also directly strengthen the government's position if the demands are poorly articulated or non-sensical. Trudeau in particular is not capable of this because he is a relatively vacant thinker and clearly out of his depth.
Title: Re: Freedom Convoy
Post by: rightleft22 on February 07, 2022, 05:26:52 PM
The error the PM made was in targeting a Vaccine Mandate on truckers when 90% are vaccinated. He kicked the hornets nest when he didn't need to.

The 'protest' has been hijacked more about the PM then any real demands that would make any kind of difference to very many people. The only win, such as it can be, for the PM is to hold firm

The truckers involved are breaking a number of laws and I wouldn't be surprised if down the road many end up having to pay significant fines and my bet is the moneys from what ever platform is collecting it will "disappear"... leaving many of trucker hanging.
Then the majority of the on site 'protestors' aren't truckers


FREEDOM!!!  without social contract is every man for themselves....
 Apparently as some of the 'Truckers' interviewed argue only God grants Freedom.... Last I looked the OT was full of rules limiting Freedom... Maybe they didn't mean it that way or maybe they just use the word 'Freedom' because its sounds nice as a rallying cray without giving much thought to what they really mean by it...
Title: Re: Freedom Convoy
Post by: rightleft22 on February 07, 2022, 05:29:48 PM
FREEDOM from Asshats!!!!
Send me money
Title: Re: Freedom Convoy
Post by: NobleHunter on February 07, 2022, 07:40:54 PM
To start, it would look like the leader of the country simply acknowledging the largest civic protest in modern Canadian history instead of literally hiding like a coward. He could start by addressing the protesters directly, acknowledging their stated cause and getting clarity on what specifically they would like to see happen.

High-functioning leaders are capable of this kind of dialogue, whether or not it immediately leads to anything substantive.  It can also directly strengthen the government's position if the demands are poorly articulated or non-sensical. Trudeau in particular is not capable of this because he is a relatively vacant thinker and clearly out of his depth.

In other words, accept their motivations and methods as legitimate. I think that would end poorly. It would be one thing if they were in any representative of the groups who's interests they claim to be promoting but they're just a pack of idiots who are disappointed they can't vote for Trump. The last thing we need to accept that sort of contagion as a worthwhile addition to our body politic.

Not to mention it would leave the Liberals and the NDP as the only parties with even a technical claim to national appeal. There's a reason O'Toole pretended to be centrist when he had to try and win a election instead of a leadership race.
Title: Re: Freedom Convoy
Post by: Fenring on February 07, 2022, 08:32:06 PM
In other words, accept their motivations and methods as legitimate. I think that would end poorly. It would be one thing if they were in any representative of the groups who's interests they claim to be promoting but they're just a pack of idiots who are disappointed they can't vote for Trump. The last thing we need to accept that sort of contagion as a worthwhile addition to our body politic.

Is there any reason to have avoided coming to precisely this same conclusion about the BLM "protests"? Just replace "disappointed they can't vote for Trump" with "disappointed Trump won" and it seems like your position should be symmetrical with the left-wing counterparts, no?
Title: Re: Freedom Convoy
Post by: msquared on February 07, 2022, 08:42:27 PM
I thought BLM protesters were protesting cops killing unarmed black men with out being held responsible?
Title: Re: Freedom Convoy
Post by: NobleHunter on February 07, 2022, 08:48:28 PM
Is there any reason to have avoided coming to precisely this same conclusion about the BLM "protests"? Just replace "disappointed they can't vote for Trump" with "disappointed Trump won" and it seems like your position should be symmetrical with the left-wing counterparts, no?
BLM's motivation, getting cops to stop shooting black people, is legitimate and their protests were aimed at the appropriate authorities. Mass gatherings is long acknowledged as a legitimate method of protest, periodic riots notwithstanding. BLM is reasonably representative of black Americans. BLM is also an authentic American movement without significant backing from foreign groups (not the absence of Trudeau for PM signs).

So, no, not at all symmetrical.
Title: Re: Freedom Convoy
Post by: Fenring on February 08, 2022, 12:06:47 AM
BLM is reasonably representative of black Americans. BLM is also an authentic American movement without significant backing from foreign groups (not the absence of Trudeau for PM signs).

I guess your pivot point here is whether or not a movement is "authentically" something, and "representative" of people in general. Well if these are the criteria then I think it's fairly obvious that the vast majority of Americans do not subscribe to the sorts of messages on the BLM website, including black Americans. I can't be 100% certain but I doubt that many people are interested in defunding the police, either. Yeah, I know, that message was garbled and had a half-dozen alternate forms. As to whether the Canadian protest is "authentic" in contrast to the BLM occupations, I'm not sure how you can know that. I would have to do a heck of a lot of research to begin to think I know who influences what in both online information distribution, and in getting certain parties to back a movement (or at least back off). I personally don't think online movements 'just' go viral; I think there is a lot of money and positioning that causes one meme to get insane coverage, while others vanish, and it's not because Facebook and Instagram are grassroots platforms (they're not). The claim that the 'truckers' are not really Canadians and not really truckers, and are probably Nazis to boot, becomes a very pat way to dismiss something inconvenient, especially given that these messages were spread almost immediately after the protest began. How could anyone know these things, did they interview the people on the scene and ask? Maybe facial recognition scans? I guess they could track plate #'s and do something with that. But it was curious how quickly it became 'clear' that this was the case. About the crowdfunding, I personally don't see how that's relevant to anything. As if funding in today's world even makes sense to discuss as a purely 'local' and 'national' affair. That's like saying McDonald's is 'just an American company' and ignoring the fact that money flowing around the world makes borders a kind of funny thing in some ways, i.e. pretending that influence is localized only in particular locales. Sure, American citizens trying to buy change in Canadian law would indeed be peculiar, but actually that happens all the time anyhow. What monies do you think are employed when the American government pushes its weight around in trade agreements, for instance with Canada? American taxpayer money, i.e. Americans trying to affect Canadian laws and policies. That's business as usual, but I guess only really powerful people have the right to have their money speak. At least, that's what it feels like.
Title: Re: Freedom Convoy
Post by: NobleHunter on February 08, 2022, 08:35:54 AM
BLM website. As if the movement is an organization with an IT and PR department.

Granted defunding the police was and remains a controversial idea, but you wouldn't have seen the kind of sustained protest without some connection to the mainstream.

90% of truckers are vaccinated, which isn't very far off from Canadians in general. The numbers aren't hard to find. Neither are the confederate flags, swastikas, and pro-Trump signs. It feels disingenuous to dismiss these criticisms as the usual slander of political opponents when they haven't been hiding their beliefs. 

We don't like it when Yankees throw their weight around in trade deals either. Just because something is common doesn't mean it's acceptable or welcome.
Title: Re: Freedom Convoy
Post by: Fenring on February 08, 2022, 09:32:27 AM
90% of truckers are vaccinated, which isn't very far off from Canadians in general. The numbers aren't hard to find. Neither are the confederate flags, swastikas, and pro-Trump signs. It feels disingenuous to dismiss these criticisms as the usual slander of political opponents when they haven't been hiding their beliefs. 

Yeah but even if 'only' 10% of truckers would be put out of work due to a vaccine mandate, does it matter that it's a minority? Health care workers seems a bit easier to understand in terms of needing to be vaccinated: you are around sickness all the time anyhow, and that risk needs to be minimized since people are coming to you literally in order to get well, rather than to get sick. But for truckers it seems almost arbitrary. And I have a hard time believing that all these rules are necessary for safety; governments with authoritarian tendencies are always looking for ways to flex their muscles. It seems inevitable: hand someone a gun, and a recurring thought becomes "when should I use this?"

As it happens I know a few anti-vaxx people, they're mostly nice, mild mannered people of a conservative disposition. They have their own reasons for not wanting it (which I think is an error on their part) but it's a far cry from what the Canadian media keeps putting out, that anti-vaxxers are racists and bad people. That being said, if there was a very important reason to be double-vaxxed as of summer 2021, I think the weight of that has, if anything, gone down. Not that vaccination is useless, but the differences between the vaxxed and unvaxxed is much lower than it was, especially (as ScottF has pointed out) the unvaxxed have actually had covid once or twice, which the legal systems in North America are not tracking at all. You'd think if you're going to actually fire someone over it you might want to verify whether in fact they have the equivalent immunity that you do. But this notion that if you walk into an establishment where everyone is vaccinated you're "safe" or "protected" is a big lie being told to the public. You can get covid in such a place just as easily as anywhere else. At this point in time it seems bizarrely illogical to start excluding people. If anything I would have thought 6 months ago would have been a more sensible time to do so, if one was going to do it at all.

About the trucker movement itself, putting aside whether you think they are really truckers, or really Canadians, or really homo sapiens for that matter, compare this to the BLM list of demands and I think it should become apparent that negotiation with this position is much, much easier than it would have been with BLM, and also more reasonable. BLM wanted, among other things, defunding the police, slavery reparations, and a host of other race-related points that no one was in a position to just grant even if they wanted to. Some city mayor could not offer slavery reparations no matter how sympathetic they were to the cause, and defunding the police is not even a policy suggestion, it's just a mantra which as we've seen seems mostly devoid of content other than to be an anti-police message. But for the truckers basically they want this rule repealed, which would be extremely easy to do: you could just repeal the rule. And unlike BLM, they are directly appealing to the body that actually made the rule: both appropriate and feasible. You might not want the government to agree to their demands, but their demands are highly specific and uncomplicated: don't make us do this. They are actually requesting the government do nothing, which is really easy to do. BLM was asking for all kinds of active behaviors on the part of government, police, the populace, you name it. They wanted a systemic revolution, and for other people to change everyone for them. Maybe what they wanted was good, maybe not, but they were asking for massive change. The truckers are asking for literally one rule to be voided, one which IMO probably should be. So why, again, would it be problematic to negotiate in good faith with them? Oh yeah, because it would be admitting that maybe their policy is controversial, which authoritarians would never, ever do.
Title: Re: Freedom Convoy
Post by: ScottF on February 08, 2022, 09:38:40 AM
BLM website. As if the movement is an organization with an IT and PR department.
Heh. Not sure what the point is here. Your cause is more legit if you have an IT and PR department? That's quite the test.
Quote
90% of truckers are vaccinated, which isn't very far off from Canadians in general. The numbers aren't hard to find. Neither are the confederate flags, swastikas, and pro-Trump signs. It feels disingenuous to dismiss these criticisms as the usual slander of political opponents when they haven't been hiding their beliefs. 
Large movements will always attract idiots and bad actors. Sometimes they're authentic and other times they are literally bad "actors" (see the Youngkin tiki torch gathering by the geniuses at the Lincoln Project). There were BLM protesters chanting "death to America!". Hopefully the standard for judging a movement's motives isn't based entirely on pond scum that collects around it.
Title: Re: Freedom Convoy
Post by: rightleft22 on February 08, 2022, 09:45:12 AM
Quote
Yeah but even if 'only' 10% of truckers would be put out of work due to a vaccine mandate, does it matter that it's a minority?
The mandate only impacted truckers crossing the US Canadian boarder. The number of truckers that actually lost thier jobs due to this mandate is very small.  Also have to ask the question those who 'lost' thier job weren't able to find other trucking jobs?

All choices, all freedoms have consequences. 
Title: Re: Freedom Convoy
Post by: NobleHunter on February 08, 2022, 09:51:04 AM
Funny, the convoy has a whole list of demands including that Parliament be unilaterally dissolved. Saying it's just about the vaccination requirement isn't particularly accurate.

Also worth noting is that this is about ending an exemption to an existing rule. Why should truckers get special treatment when everyone else who crosses the border needs to be vaccinated?
Title: Re: Freedom Convoy
Post by: ScottF on February 08, 2022, 09:57:25 AM
Also worth noting is that this is about ending an exemption to an existing rule. Why should truckers get special treatment when everyone else who crosses the border needs to be vaccinated?

This is why they have broad citizen support but not media support. It's got nothing to do with truckers, it's about freedom and government overreach. There have been protests all over the world. The CAD truckers just happen to be the first plebs some real teeth behind their movement.
Title: Re: Freedom Convoy
Post by: ScottF on February 08, 2022, 10:02:33 AM
All choices, all freedoms have consequences.

Agreed. What we're increasingly seeing are people (voters) saying they're done with over-indexing on "safety" and willing to accept the consequences of greater freedoms. You can disagree, but it's not a difficult argument to understand.
Title: Re: Freedom Convoy
Post by: ScottF on February 08, 2022, 10:10:19 AM
So why, again, would it be problematic to negotiate in good faith with them? Oh yeah, because it would be admitting that maybe their policy is controversial, which authoritarians would never, ever do.

This is a real dilemma for Biden and all pro-mandate types. There was never a clearly articulated off-ramp to end them. They created their own loop when they continually talked about the threat of future variants, which by definition is...permanent.

So now they either have to arbitrarily reverse their position, or stick to their guns against overwhelming public opinion. Last time I checked, power likes to stay in power so I suspect we all know what direction all the mandates are headed. We're already seeing Expertstm talking about how the "Science has changed" and now suggesting masks should be an individual choice. Go figure.
Title: Re: Freedom Convoy
Post by: NobleHunter on February 08, 2022, 10:13:02 AM
This is why they have broad citizen support but not media support. It's got nothing to do with truckers, it's about freedom and government overreach. There have been protests all over the world. The CAD truckers just happen to be the first plebs some real teeth behind their movement.

Broad citizen support? Have any numbers backing that up? My impression is that everyone hates their guts (aside from *censored* Trudeau types but they'd give Hitler a favorable mention in Parliament if he ran against the Liberals) but my social circle may not be representative.
Title: Re: Freedom Convoy
Post by: ScottF on February 08, 2022, 11:02:30 AM
I've seen a ton of montages of hundreds of people lining the roads as the convoy made it's way to Ottawa. Granted that's still anecdotal even if it's video, but it certainly looked like lots of people across the country braving minus 20 cold to come out and show their support as they drove through. I'm sure people living anywhere near the actual protest right now might not be as favorable with the noise and disruption.
Title: Re: Freedom Convoy
Post by: NobleHunter on February 08, 2022, 11:23:21 AM
Hundreds! My word. That's several orders of magnitude away from even a single percent of the population let alone "broad citizen support."
Title: Re: Freedom Convoy
Post by: yossarian22c on February 08, 2022, 11:27:01 AM
I've seen a ton of montages of hundreds of people lining the roads as the convoy made it's way to Ottawa. Granted that's still anecdotal even if it's video, but it certainly looked like lots of people across the country braving minus 20 cold to come out and show their support as they drove through. I'm sure people living anywhere near the actual protest right now might not be as favorable with the noise and disruption.

How many of them there to show support? Or did they come to gawk at the spectacle or flip them the bird? Or drivers waiting on the side of the road for the truckers to pass? I'm sure the edited video montages will only show 1 perspective.
Title: Re: Freedom Convoy
Post by: Fenring on February 08, 2022, 11:42:53 AM
Broad citizen support? Have any numbers backing that up? My impression is that everyone hates their guts (aside from *censored* Trudeau types but they'd give Hitler a favorable mention in Parliament if he ran against the Liberals) but my social circle may not be representative.

I can't give you anything sweeping (such data likely doesn't exist, and if it did it wouldn't be pubicized) but while it's true many people in Ottawa are likely aggravated by the commotion, I know someone who lives in a residential Ottawa suburb who says that some locals are putting up signs in their house windows in support of the truckers. How many, I don't know. Maybe by fluke this is the only street in Ottawa where people are doing this. But what are the odds the only person I know in Ottawa just happens to see this? If I had to guess I think you'd be surprised as just how many Canadians are angry at the vaccine mandate laws. People north of the border are not as quarrelsome and loud as Americans, but it doesn't mean they don't seethe quietly. 
Title: Re: Freedom Convoy
Post by: NobleHunter on February 08, 2022, 11:47:09 AM
I know there are people here who are angry at the vaccine mandates. That still doesn't mean there's broad support for the truckers.
Title: Re: Freedom Convoy
Post by: rightleft22 on February 08, 2022, 11:55:20 AM
I know a person that knows a person.. that that must mean everyone...

Many agree with the notion that its time the Mandates are removed but the 'protest' has moved beyond that talking point and is about something else for many having boots on the ground.

Its the method of the protest and the outsider agitators that is pissing off the majority of people.
Title: Re: Freedom Convoy
Post by: Fenring on February 08, 2022, 12:23:23 PM
I know a person that knows a person.. that that must mean everyone...

Yes, of course, the only 'real information' is what they say on the news. Anything you see in real life is obviously 'just anecdotal'. Meaning it must not matter.

Quote
Its the method of the protest and the outsider agitators that is pissing off the majority of people.

This is the usual tactic used by anyone serious about getting a reaction: you do something so annoying you can't be ignored. You know that protesters used to be arrested, hosed down, tear gassed, and many other things, right? And these were students at universities. Now that was a far-left movement, with a few threads but among them was an anti-war movement. Perhaps you think that opposing unnecessary war can be done using docile and easy-to-ignore methods? The same goes for any protest movement. What changed in BLM was apparently that the protesters were doing actual damage, even barricading, and this was allowed. That's a bit unusual, but overall the methodology is always the same: get noticed, don't go away, be annoying. You don't think Occupy Wall Street was annoying for locals? The only major difference here is that most protest movements are left-wing and this one is right-wing (more or less). That gets this branded by the news as Nazis, whereas the equivalent isn't the case in left-wing protests (being called communists, etc). Double standards, which unless I'm mistaken you're not fond of.
Title: Re: Freedom Convoy
Post by: TheDrake on February 08, 2022, 12:36:38 PM
Quote
This is why they have broad citizen support but not media support.

Depends on what your mean by "broad" support. Not majority support, but certainly significant. Polls show even 22% of Ottawa residents support the truckers, according to one source. I believe that goes up to 33% nationwide.

Broad support is typically used to describe majority support, according to an unscientific google poke.

Trying to draw any sort of equivalence to the severity of the issue with BLM is mind boggling. Getting an entirely safe shot and having to breathe through a mask versus being harassed, beaten and killed by authorities - what's the greater infringement on freedom, would you say?
Title: Re: Freedom Convoy
Post by: Fenring on February 08, 2022, 01:01:05 PM
Trying to draw any sort of equivalence to the severity of the issue with BLM is mind boggling. Getting an entirely safe shot and having to breathe through a mask versus being harassed, beaten and killed by authorities - what's the greater infringement on freedom, would you say?

Bad math, I think. Forcing choking measures on every single person for years, versus an outrage committed against one person in a given instance. Different severity on an individual basis, but spread over an entire population over long durations. We assume, of course, that the trucker protest is merely the last straw and not an isolated incident over one particular rule. That part is maybe harder to tell. The support for them, though, is no doubt a last-straw issue.
Title: Re: Freedom Convoy
Post by: rightleft22 on February 08, 2022, 01:39:09 PM
Quote
This is the usual tactic used by anyone serious about getting a reaction: you do something so annoying you can't be ignored. You know that protesters used to be arrested, hosed down, tear gassed, and many other things, right? And these were students at universities. Now that was a far-left movement, with a few threads but among them was an anti-war movement. Perhaps you think that opposing unnecessary war can be done using docile and easy-to-ignore methods? The same goes for any protest movement. What changed in BLM was apparently that the protesters were doing actual damage, even barricading, and this was allowed. That's a bit unusual, but overall the methodology is always the same: get noticed, don't go away, be annoying. You don't think Occupy Wall Street was annoying for locals? The only major difference here is that most protest movements are left-wing and this one is right-wing (more or less). That gets this branded by the news as Nazis, whereas the equivalent isn't the case in left-wing protests (being called communists, etc). Double standards, which unless I'm mistaken you're not fond of.

As long as you keep that in mind when addressing protesting methods about things you don't agree with

Opposition to a vaccine mandate verses with 90% compliance to anti war protests is quite the leap.
Title: Re: Freedom Convoy
Post by: TheDrake on February 08, 2022, 01:42:24 PM
Trying to draw any sort of equivalence to the severity of the issue with BLM is mind boggling. Getting an entirely safe shot and having to breathe through a mask versus being harassed, beaten and killed by authorities - what's the greater infringement on freedom, would you say?

Bad math, I think. Forcing choking measures on every single person for years, versus an outrage committed against one person in a given instance. Different severity on an individual basis, but spread over an entire population over long durations. We assume, of course, that the trucker protest is merely the last straw and not an isolated incident over one particular rule. That part is maybe harder to tell. The support for them, though, is no doubt a last-straw issue.

You think that was about one person? Did you miss all the other videos where cops are kneeling on someone's windpipe? Nobody ever died from wearing a mask, not even one. Nobody has gone to the hospital over it, as far as I know, although I suppose it is possible. Doctors and nurses wear masks day in and day out, do you think they are being oppressed? There are a very few professional fighters, and even they don't have to worry about someone kneeling on their neck.
Title: Re: Freedom Convoy
Post by: Fenring on February 08, 2022, 02:22:24 PM
As long as you keep that in mind when addressing protesting methods about things you don't agree with

Opposition to a vaccine mandate verses with 90% compliance to anti war protests is quite the leap.

What has compliance to do with being upset at the government? Unlike the U.S., Canada and Europe are quite used to populations being a lot more cooperative with government as a matter of course, which doesn't speak to whether they approve of the policies but just the fact that they are not in the mental habit of resisting outright. You can have a 100% compliant population that hates the government over it; the one has nothing to do with the other.

As to the analogy, I think you're whitewashing the 'Nam protests and thing to think of them as being mainstream. Most people barely knew what was going on over there, and we know that the news was barred from reporting on it until later. Being an analogy, it's sort of a moot point anyhow, but suffice to say protests back then were a messy business, so a modern protest being highly irritating cannot be in and of itself a commentary on the propositions being put forward. I've already outlined above how I think the BLM demands were vague and far-reaching, whereas the trucker demands seem to be fairly simply and specific. Beyond that it should be just an issue of whether you agree with the protest claim or not. Canadian news often appears to be trying to dismiss the legitimacy of the protest rather than addressing the points made (even to rebut them). The government is doing that too.
Title: Re: Freedom Convoy
Post by: NobleHunter on February 08, 2022, 02:36:07 PM
I "like" how you keep skipping the demand that Parliament be dissolved as if it's no big deal. Or even that a lot of the mandates come from the provincial governments rather than Ottawa.

If the protesters want to be treated as a legitimate protest, they probably should have kept people from showing pro-Trump signs, never mind Confederate flags and swastikas.
Title: Re: Freedom Convoy
Post by: rightleft22 on February 08, 2022, 02:47:39 PM
Quote
As to the analogy, I think you're whitewashing the 'Nam protests and thing to think of them as being mainstream. Most people barely knew what was going on over there, and we know that the news was barred from reporting on it until later. Being an analogy, it's sort of a moot point anyhow, but suffice to say protests back then were a messy business, so a modern protest being highly irritating cannot be in and of itself a commentary on the propositions being put forward. I've already outlined above how I think the BLM demands were vague and far-reaching, whereas the trucker demands seem to be fairly simply and specific. Beyond that it should be just an issue of whether you agree with the protest claim or not. Canadian news often appears to be trying to dismiss the legitimacy of the protest rather than addressing the points made (even to rebut them). The government is doing that too.

I don't remember how I felt at the time of the Nam protests - to young
I do know how I feel when a protests turns violent within context to the stated intention of the protest - their is as they say a time for all things.
I remember how I felt about occupy wall street - that the protest / occupation was wrong even if I sympathized so I think I'm keeping consistent. Picking ones battle and method matters to a effective protest.

Perhaps we disagree on the impact of the mandate on the few justifies the type of protest. Or perhaps you believe the method will be affective. I don't I think they work against themselves as public opinion turns on them the longer the stay.
 
As hunter noted you seem to avoid the issue that the 'fairly simple and specific' demands are no longer what this protest is about or what those on the ground are demanding.
The majority of truckers are distancing themselves from this protest even though they still agree with what started out os the 'fairly simple and specific demand'
Title: Re: Freedom Convoy
Post by: TheDeamon on February 08, 2022, 09:58:35 PM
I "like" how you keep skipping the demand that Parliament be dissolved as if it's no big deal. Or even that a lot of the mandates come from the provincial governments rather than Ottawa.

If the protesters want to be treated as a legitimate protest, they probably should have kept people from showing pro-Trump signs, never mind Confederate flags and swastikas.

My understanding is that dissolution of parliament is a fairly standard event in many parliamentary systems? It simply means new elections are to be held immediately.
Title: Re: Freedom Convoy
Post by: TheDeamon on February 08, 2022, 10:03:17 PM
I don't know, let's see how those truckers react when one of their guys gets choked to death by cops in the process of arresting them.

At that point, it wouldn't just be the response of the truckers currently involved in the protest you would need to worry about. That would all but assure that you get even more 18 wheelers turning up join the protest, while concurrently serving to greatly curtail the number of drivers willing to go anywhere near the offending city. Making for a lose/lose/lose scenario for the locals.
Title: Re: Freedom Convoy
Post by: LetterRip on February 08, 2022, 10:22:12 PM
If I were the local legislature, I would have enacted fines of 500$ an hour for any intentional obstruction of traffic, with vehicle seizure to pay the fines.
Title: Re: Freedom Convoy
Post by: LetterRip on February 08, 2022, 10:51:31 PM
I don't know, let's see how those truckers react when one of their guys gets choked to death by cops in the process of arresting them.

At that point, it wouldn't just be the response of the truckers currently involved in the protest you would need to worry about.

Umm - I think you have a giant woosh.  He was referrencing to one of the triggers of BLM protests in response to ScottF "How many businesses have the truckers burned or destroyed so far?".

Ie that given similar provocation there might be vandalism and arson by some of the trucker protestors.
Title: Re: Freedom Convoy
Post by: TheDeamon on February 08, 2022, 10:53:15 PM
The people who get real mad at BLM for blocking roads for a period of hours are strangely silent about roads blocked in Ottawa for days on end.

IIRC, my position was that the blockages were "dumb" and very dangerous for the protesters themselves. Unstated was that their chosen format was also likely to put any motorist they cross paths with ill-at-ease as they fear potential violence.

Truckers blocking traffic with 18 wheelers is still dumb and potentially dangerous. But not so much for the truck driver themselves. So long as the truckers remain in their trucks, other motorists likewise have minimal reason to fear for a credible threat to either their car, or person.
Title: Re: Freedom Convoy
Post by: TheDeamon on February 08, 2022, 10:54:56 PM
I don't know, let's see how those truckers react when one of their guys gets choked to death by cops in the process of arresting them.

At that point, it wouldn't just be the response of the truckers currently involved in the protest you would need to worry about.

Umm - I think you have a giant woosh.  He was referrencing to one of the triggers of BLM protests in response to ScottF "How many businesses have the truckers burned or destroyed so far?".

Ie that given similar provocation there might be vandalism and arson by some of the trucker protestors.

Doubtful it would go much beyond slashed tires and cut service air lines on trailers moved to inconvenient locations.
Title: Re: Freedom Convoy
Post by: LetterRip on February 08, 2022, 11:14:06 PM
Doubtful it would go much beyond slashed tires and cut service air lines on trailers moved to inconvenient locations.

I suspect the truckers overlap mentally/politically pretty heavily with the insurrectionists who killed people and tried to murder many more on Trump's lies about the election. 
Title: Re: Freedom Convoy
Post by: NobleHunter on February 09, 2022, 12:02:16 AM
My understanding is that dissolution of parliament is a fairly standard event in many parliamentary systems? It simply means new elections are to be held immediately.

While it is technically possible for the Governor General to dissolve Parliament whenever but for a standard event, they can only do so under fairly specific rules and conditions. For a non-standard event, it's up to the Prime Minister and the exact limits of the PM's power in this regard hasn't been tested. For the Governor General to dissolve Parliament outside of the accepted scenarios would be the same as Pence granting the election to Trump. It may sound like the GG has discretionary power over Parliament but it's just polite phrasing. Especially in the last couple of decades, it's been established that the GG does what the PM tells them to.
Title: Re: Freedom Convoy
Post by: rightleft22 on February 09, 2022, 12:05:57 PM
That would be a good system
A minority don't like something the Government does forces the Government to fall and call a election. The majority reelect said party to form Government... The minority don't like the results and force the Government to fall....

'Protestors' playing the role of useful idiots wont see anything wrong with that. 
Title: Re: Freedom Convoy
Post by: TheDrake on February 09, 2022, 12:14:59 PM
They just had an election four months ago. But now that we've had our blockade, its going to come out so different!

They are also asking the GG to fire Trudeau.

Quote
It’s useless for protesters to be “calling Rideau Hall or pressuring senators to do something, that’s not how things work,” he added. “It’s a democratic system, and neither the senate nor the Governor General are elected, so they don’t have the democratic legitimacy” to dissolve government.

This week, National Post called Rideau Hall’s general line. What would normally be a few seconds of waiting to reach an employee instead turned into 25 minutes of waiting on hold before someone picked up the phone.

We demand freedom! Bring back the monarchy!
Title: Re: Freedom Convoy
Post by: Lloyd Perna on February 09, 2022, 01:32:14 PM
https://youtu.be/Ea-7RKpRNIk (https://youtu.be/Ea-7RKpRNIk)

78 year old man wrestled to the ground and arrested for honking his horn in support of the Freedom Convoy.
Title: Re: Freedom Convoy
Post by: rightleft22 on February 09, 2022, 03:13:48 PM
https://youtu.be/Ea-7RKpRNIk (https://youtu.be/Ea-7RKpRNIk)

78 year old man wrestled to the ground and arrested for honking his horn in support of the Freedom Convoy.

Law and Order, Law and Order  --- FREEDOM from Law and Order
Title: Re: Freedom Convoy
Post by: Wayward Son on February 09, 2022, 03:23:41 PM
Falling on one knee is hardly "wrestled to the ground."  The old guy failed to show ID (driver's license?) and they arrested and handcuffed him, with some jerk calling out silly stuff like "communism" and "freedom" and "you don't have to do that" (cooperate with the police).  For a police arrest, this was pretty tame.

Nobody was shot seven times at point-blank range, nor held on the ground with a knee to his neck until he was dead.  You need something more dramatic than that for today's audience. ;)  Actually, I'm surprised they didn't arrest the guy with the cell phone.  They would have done that in America!  >:(  (Recording a police arrest is illegal in some parts these days, and tolerated in most.)

As I understand, honking your horn in Ottawa is illegal right now, and not cooperating with the police has always been grounds for arrest. :)  Don't tell me you're becoming a BLM supporter, Lloyd.  ;D
Title: Re: Freedom Convoy
Post by: TheDrake on February 09, 2022, 03:29:24 PM
https://youtu.be/Ea-7RKpRNIk (https://youtu.be/Ea-7RKpRNIk)

78 year old man wrestled to the ground and arrested for honking his horn in support of the Freedom Convoy.

If the guy shooting the video hadn't been interjecting himself and escalating the situation, the driver would have just complied. He was about to when camera jerk gives him really bad advice.
Title: Re: Freedom Convoy
Post by: Lloyd Perna on February 09, 2022, 08:07:43 PM
https://youtu.be/Ea-7RKpRNIk (https://youtu.be/Ea-7RKpRNIk)

78 year old man wrestled to the ground and arrested for honking his horn in support of the Freedom Convoy.

If the guy shooting the video hadn't been interjecting himself and escalating the situation, the driver would have just complied. He was about to when camera jerk gives him really bad advice.

Oh, now you say people should just comply with the police.  If that man was black you would be singing a different tune.
Title: Re: Freedom Convoy
Post by: Lloyd Perna on February 09, 2022, 08:08:43 PM
Falling on one knee is hardly "wrestled to the ground."  The old guy failed to show ID (driver's license?) and they arrested and handcuffed him, with some jerk calling out silly stuff like "communism" and "freedom" and "you don't have to do that" (cooperate with the police).  For a police arrest, this was pretty tame.

Nobody was shot seven times at point-blank range, nor held on the ground with a knee to his neck until he was dead.  You need something more dramatic than that for today's audience. ;)  Actually, I'm surprised they didn't arrest the guy with the cell phone.  They would have done that in America!  >:(  (Recording a police arrest is illegal in some parts these days, and tolerated in most.)

As I understand, honking your horn in Ottawa is illegal right now, and not cooperating with the police has always been grounds for arrest. :)  Don't tell me you're becoming a BLM supporter, Lloyd.  ;D

Did George Floyd cooperate with the police?
Title: Re: Freedom Convoy
Post by: TheDrake on February 09, 2022, 11:44:50 PM
https://youtu.be/Ea-7RKpRNIk (https://youtu.be/Ea-7RKpRNIk)

78 year old man wrestled to the ground and arrested for honking his horn in support of the Freedom Convoy.

If the guy shooting the video hadn't been interjecting himself and escalating the situation, the driver would have just complied. He was about to when camera jerk gives him really bad advice.

Oh, now you say people should just comply with the police.  If that man was black you would be singing a different tune.

No, I do say comply. I never recommend fighting police. I don't justify unnecessary violence and murder over it by police. If this man had been put in a chokehold, or had his head slammed against the pavement on purpose, then I would sing the same tune for this guy. If somebody with a camera had been egging Floyd on to fight the police, I'd call that person a dbag as well.
Title: Re: Freedom Convoy
Post by: Wayward Son on February 10, 2022, 10:57:49 AM
Falling on one knee is hardly "wrestled to the ground."  The old guy failed to show ID (driver's license?) and they arrested and handcuffed him, with some jerk calling out silly stuff like "communism" and "freedom" and "you don't have to do that" (cooperate with the police).  For a police arrest, this was pretty tame.

Nobody was shot seven times at point-blank range, nor held on the ground with a knee to his neck until he was dead.  You need something more dramatic than that for today's audience. ;)  Actually, I'm surprised they didn't arrest the guy with the cell phone.  They would have done that in America!  >:(  (Recording a police arrest is illegal in some parts these days, and tolerated in most.)

As I understand, honking your horn in Ottawa is illegal right now, and not cooperating with the police has always been grounds for arrest. :)  Don't tell me you're becoming a BLM supporter, Lloyd.  ;D

Did George Floyd cooperate with the police?

From what I've read, at first he did, then he didn't, then they killed him.

How does this relate to an old man stumbling for a second before being handcuffed?  Other than the old man's incident being a minor scuffle that wouldn't even raise the eyebrows of most people, and the other being an incident where the arrested man was killed by the police officer and the officer was found guilty of murder and manslaughter.  ???
Title: Re: Freedom Convoy
Post by: Lloyd Perna on February 10, 2022, 12:34:32 PM
You are suggesting this assault on the old man is his fault because he didn't comply.
When Floyd was killed did you ever defend the Police by suggesting that he should have complied? Because if he had complied he certainly wouldn't be dead.
Title: Re: Freedom Convoy
Post by: Mynnion on February 10, 2022, 01:07:09 PM
I watched the video and I didn't see any kind of "assault."  The restraint seemed fairly straight forward.  I think it's stupid that honking the horn escalated to an arrest however calling the arrest violent is a huge stretch.  In this case the officer showed restraint and acted in an appropriate manner.  Gorge Floyd is dead.  If you fail to see the difference between the two cases..........
Title: Re: Freedom Convoy
Post by: TheDrake on February 10, 2022, 01:29:23 PM
You are suggesting this assault on the old man is his fault because he didn't comply.
When Floyd was killed did you ever defend the Police by suggesting that he should have complied? Because if he had complied he certainly wouldn't be dead.

You're not paying attention. Let me try again. I would have defended the police if they cuffed Floyd - which they did. and then propped him up - or even if they hobbled his legs together to keep him from kicking. Put a hood on his head to keep him from spitting. Subduing a suspect is a proper part of the job. Where I stopped defending them is when one guy knelt on someone no longer resisting for many minutes while a bunch of other cops watched Floyd die. It's the same reason it wasn't okay to beat the crap out of Rodney King, despite the fact that he had put lives at risk with his flight from the cops just minutes before. Once your subject is in custody, you don't get to hurt them gratuitously. That's corporal punishment and if you aren't aware, it is illegal. It doesn't matter if they had it coming to them or if they are bad people. It also doesn't matter if someone is a nice person. if you fight a cop over giving a citation, you're going to get subdued.
Title: Re: Freedom Convoy
Post by: Wayward Son on February 10, 2022, 01:42:41 PM
You are suggesting this assault on the old man is his fault because he didn't comply.
When Floyd was killed did you ever defend the Police by suggesting that he should have complied? Because if he had complied he certainly wouldn't be dead.

As Mynnion said, this wasn't an assault.  The policeman grabbed his arm and twisted it back.  The old man stumbled a bit onto one knee.  The policeman pulled him up, put him against the SUV, and handcuffed him.  He used a reasonable amount of force to arrest him, certainly not much more than was necessary to handcuff him.  And, as a police officer, he has a right to arrest him, assuming the courts agree with the officer's reasons.

And is there any comparison to a man slowly choked to death?  Seriously, exactly what kind of resisting arrest would warrant a slow death?  Would you feel the police were justified if your son resisted like George did, and they suffocated him to death?  He would have to have sent at least one officer to the hospital with serious injuries, and still be a threat to the remaining ones, before I would consider it to be anywhere near defensible. 
Title: Re: Freedom Convoy
Post by: TheDrake on February 14, 2022, 01:06:43 PM
Here is an example for Trudeau to follow or avoid.

Quote
Mayor Jim Watson said Freedom Convoy organizers agreed to the city's demands to confine their protests to a concentrated area around Parliament Hill.

In exchange, Watson said he would be willing to meet with demonstrators and hear out their complaints if trucks and other vehicles linked to the protests are out of residential neighborhoods by noon Monday.

Quote
A written response from Convoy board president Tamara Lich seemed to indicate the truckers would comply and begin moving to new locations tomorrow.

Lich said organizers will spend the next 24 hours "workin hard, ...to get buy-in from the truckers" who flooded the streets of Ottawa with their trucks.

Much like Occupy Wall Street, how do you meet with and negotiate with an unstructured movement with no leadership?

Quote
There was confusion on social media Sunday evening after Lich and other organizers of the "Freedom Convoy" demonstration said there was "no deal."

"The media lies to their viewers. No 'deal' has been made," Lich said on Twitter. "End the mandates, end the passports. That is why we are here."

BJ Dichter also said there was no deal, "The federal government has not yet lifted its mandates and passports."

However, Lich confirmed there is a deal with the mayor to move trucks out of residential neighbourhoods in response to a tweet from CTV News Ottawa reporter Colton Praill.  Lich says truckers are not leaving Ottawa and the Parliamentary Precinct until all federal mandates are dropped.

"@JimWatsonOttawa is not in charge of FEDERAL mandates as my comment clearly indicates. Plans to relocate trucks out of residential areas as agreed to will go ahead."

When asked about the "no deal" comments from organizers earlier Sunday evening, the Mayor's Office told Newstalk 580 CFRA that, "The Mayor’s office has had no communication with the group that would suggest such a development."