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General Category => General Comments => Topic started by: msquared on April 20, 2022, 07:51:22 PM

Title: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on April 20, 2022, 07:51:22 PM
Trump campaign ordered to pay legal fees in law suite they lost.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-campaign-ordered-pay-omarosa-215922156.html

He just keeps loosing and loosing and loosing.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Crunch on April 23, 2022, 10:34:07 AM
All Trump all the time. Get some help
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on April 23, 2022, 12:47:04 PM
If he and his family and toadies would shut up and go away I would let it go. But as long as he is still out there peddling his election lies and destroying the Party I grew up a member of, I am going to continue enjoying his downfall.  I'll shut up when he shuts up.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: TheDrake on April 23, 2022, 12:54:32 PM
I'll never get tired of watching Trump lose. Keep it coming, msquared.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on April 25, 2022, 01:15:17 PM
And again.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/judge-holds-trump-contempt-failing-164041262.html

His defense was that the documents asked for where in the possession of the Trump Corporation and not in his possession, so he could not turn them over. He has no control over what the Trump Corporation does.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: TheDrake on April 25, 2022, 01:46:26 PM
Well he can't provide the documents because he tore them all up by hand and the Trump organization doesn't have a phalanx of designated paper tapers.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Crunch on April 26, 2022, 02:05:39 PM
If he and his family and toadies would shut up and go away I would let it go. But as long as he is still out there peddling his election lies and destroying the Party I grew up a member of, I am going to continue enjoying his downfall.  I'll shut up when he shuts up.

You’ve got “Long TDS”. I don’t think you’ll be able to stop, he broke you somehow. Literally cracked your mental foundation is some fundamental way. I see a few like this. I worry about you when trump retakes the whitehouse.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on April 26, 2022, 02:24:11 PM
That's right, you know all about me. You should be an FBI profiler with how well you read people.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: rightleft22 on April 26, 2022, 02:52:12 PM
I wonder how history will define “TDS”
That's if history will still a subject to be studied?
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Wayward Son on April 26, 2022, 04:25:05 PM
If he and his family and toadies would shut up and go away I would let it go. But as long as he is still out there peddling his election lies and destroying the Party I grew up a member of, I am going to continue enjoying his downfall.  I'll shut up when he shuts up.

You’ve got “Long TDS”. I don’t think you’ll be able to stop, he broke you somehow. Literally cracked your mental foundation is some fundamental way. I see a few like this.

You mean "Trump Delusion Syndrome," where perfectly intelligent people fall under the delusion that Donald J. Trump was a decent President and/or a decent human being?  Sorry, Crunch, but I don't think he's the one who has it.  ;) ;D

Quote
I worry about you when trump retakes the whitehouse.

Msquared is the least of your worries.  You should be worried about our whole nation and probably American democracy itself!  :'(
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on April 26, 2022, 07:14:01 PM
If he and his family and toadies would shut up and go away I would let it go. But as long as he is still out there peddling his election lies and destroying the Party I grew up a member of, I am going to continue enjoying his downfall.  I'll shut up when he shuts up.

You’ve got “Long TDS”. I don’t think you’ll be able to stop, he broke you somehow. Literally cracked your mental foundation is some fundamental way. I see a few like this.

You mean "Trump Delusion Syndrome," where perfectly intelligent people fall under the delusion that Donald J. Trump was a decent President and/or a decent human being?  Sorry, Crunch, but I don't think he's the one who has it.  ;) ;D

Quote
I worry about you when trump retakes the whitehouse.

Msquared is the least of your worries.  You should be worried about our whole nation and probably American democracy itself!  :'(

Trump Delusion Syndrome refers to people like you who hate Trump because of disinformation. You've been snookered by your own side, who laugh at you as their "idiot morons": cannon fodder to their power grabs. Trump was a decent President. Name one President who honored his promises before his election better than Trump did. Your side loved Trump before he chose to run on the GOP ticket. Odd that such a perceived slap in the face means he is the one who behaves with vitriol.

As for fear of Trump (another symptom of TDS), he is far superior in protecting the Constitution and our citizens than you guys. There would have been no border incursion, Afghanistan surrender, nor war in Ukraine had Biden not vote-scammed the election.
 
The good news is that the populace sees this and the poll numbers reflect what will happen in the midterm and in 2024. The Democrat Party is in full retreat, with defections to the GOP from those hoping to stay in office. The collusionists who lied about Trump are fearing indictments after the GOP regains the majority. They, not Trump, lied about Russian collusion and the Russian bank scandal. Sussman was already seen to be guilty, and his claim to not have been paid by Hillary was blown up by a stupid Hillary claiming attorney/client privilege.

However; there are still plenty of pathetic attacks aimed at Trump and his family and associates, which will probably all be overturned by honest courts. The Dems are all quaking in their boots now that the GOP have pledged to fully investigate and bring them to justice. I don't know if Pelosi, Schumer, Shiff, Comey, Hillary, and the other liars and inveiglers will get perp-walked to prison in orange jump-suits because of their paid-for enablers, but we shall see. Were I you, perhaps a little common-sense might be in order.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: TheDrake on April 27, 2022, 06:51:45 AM
Let's note that Trump detractors, if that is "our side" are a big tent. They include Michael Bolton, James Mattis, John Kelly, HR McMaster, Omarosa Manigault Newman, Gary Cohn, Rex Tillerson.... basically everyone who isn't a Trump worshipping sychophant.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: yossarian22c on April 27, 2022, 03:37:11 PM
...

Trump Delusion Syndrome refers to people like you who hate Trump because of disinformation. You've been snookered by your own side, who laugh at you as their "idiot morons": cannon fodder to their power grabs. Trump was a decent President. Name one President who honored his promises before his election better than Trump did. Your side loved Trump before he chose to run on the GOP ticket. Odd that such a perceived slap in the face means he is the one who behaves with vitriol.
...

I never loved Trump. His show sucked, his businesses regularly failed, he was always a pompous self aggrandizing ass.

As to his promises:

The Wall:
How much did Trump spend on the border wall that Mexico was going to pay for? How many miles got put up? And how many holes have been cut in it already? Or how many toddlers have climbed over?
 
Tax returns:
Still waiting to see those, he really wants to keep them hidden. Pretty surprising for the most transparent president ever.


I addressed two promises, were there others you were thinking of? Care to tackle those points or either of these two issues in relation your presidential hero.

Business interests:
How much did foreign governments and sovereign wealth funds spend buying and renting Trump properties during his presidency? I know the Qatar sovereign wealth fund rented a good chunk of a building in San Francisco and left it empty. Wonder what value they were getting from that investment.

Advisors:
Name a single president who has had a revolving door of people leaving office and writing books about how horrible the president who they worked for was? Do you read the books written by people who left the administration?
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on April 27, 2022, 04:42:19 PM
The Real Estate company Trump used to value his properties is in deep doodoo  now.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/judge-says-real-estate-giant-195804610.html
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: TheDrake on April 27, 2022, 06:08:04 PM
Quote
Some of the evidence made public by James in January revealed the ridiculous lengths which Trump went to inflate the value of his properties, including one instance in which he lied by simply tripling the size of his already humongous three-story penthouse at Trump Tower.

I somehow missed that nuance until now. HA HA HA! My penthouse apartment in Yuuuuge!
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Crunch on April 29, 2022, 08:30:27 AM
That's right, you know all about me. You should be an FBI profiler with how well you read people.

I can see that you mention Trump in very nearly every single post you make, tying him to even the most random things. I can see you doing it over an extended period of time. Hell, everyone can see that. We all, actually, know about you and if we're being honest then we all know you need some therapy.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on April 29, 2022, 08:37:49 AM
And you hate that I keep bringing up how often Trump is loosing.  You seem to have MDS. It is obvious to everyone you need therapy.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Crunch on April 29, 2022, 10:33:10 AM
And you hate that I keep bringing up how often Trump is loosing.  You seem to have MDS. It is obvious to everyone you need therapy.

I don't hate it, it's actually pretty amusing to see the convoluted logic and blueanon conspiracy theory woven together. I quite enjoy your trip into mental breakdown from a purely rational perspective.

I think you need help. You are clearly having obsessive, paranoid, thoughts. You're fixated. It's not healthy and, Mark, I encourage you to get professional help.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on April 29, 2022, 10:36:34 AM
Thank you Dr Crunch.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on May 03, 2022, 10:51:13 AM
And one more loss.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/dc-reaches-750k-settlement-trump-143257315.html
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on May 06, 2022, 07:27:43 PM
https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/donald-trump-lawsuit-seeking-overturn-215952142.html
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on May 07, 2022, 09:09:07 PM
...The Wall:
How much did Trump spend on the border wall that Mexico was going to pay for? How many miles got put up? And how many holes have been cut in it already? Or how many toddlers have climbed over?

You mean the wall that the Dems did everything to derail? Just look at what Biden did within days of being sworn in. Yeah, let's close down all the wall-building contracts that took years to clear all the nuisance lawsuits, thereby throwing thousands out of work, leaving the border open, and leaving paid-for and already delivered supplies to ort or be stolen. The overworked border agents have been ridiculed and insulted non-stop, unable to cover the millions of illegals who want to bring in drugs and human-smuggling - and allowing the drug cartels to get even richer and more in charge.
 
Tax returns:
Still waiting to see those, he really wants to keep them hidden. Pretty surprising for the most transparent president ever.

He gave you more than past presidents every handed over, yet you obsess on minutiae when Hunter's laptop confirmed the Biden Crime Family taking millions if not billions from enemies everywhere. The difference for you apologists, is that Trump worked for a living and made more money than Dems who just scammed from the government trough. You just want fishing expeditions to create strawman problems. Show us Pelosi's portfolio and maybe you's have a comparative idea.

I addressed two promises, were there others you were thinking of? Care to tackle those points or either of these two issues in relation your presidential hero.

You've got the wrong list. You should comment on everything he did, in spite of the Democrats and Never-Trumpers dragging their feet and doing all they could to get in the way.

Before the China Virus invaded our shores, we built the world’s most prosperous economy.

    America gained 7 million new jobs – more than three times government experts’ projections.
    Middle-Class family income increased nearly $6,000 – more than five times the gains during the entire previous administration.
    The unemployment rate reached 3.5 percent, the lowest in a half-century.
    Achieved 40 months in a row with more job openings than job-hirings.
    More Americans reported being employed than ever before – nearly 160 million.
    Jobless claims hit a nearly 50-year low.
    The number of people claiming unemployment insurance as a share of the population hit its lowest on record.
    Incomes rose in every single metro area in the United States for the first time in nearly 3 decades.

Delivered a future of greater promise and opportunity for citizens of all backgrounds.

    Unemployment rates for African Americans, Hispanic Americans, Asian Americans, Native Americans, veterans, individuals with disabilities, and those without a high school diploma all reached record lows.
    Unemployment for women hit its lowest rate in nearly 70 years.
    Lifted nearly 7 million people off of food stamps.
    Poverty rates for African Americans and Hispanic Americans reached record lows.
    Income inequality fell for two straight years, and by the largest amount in over a decade.
    The bottom 50 percent of American households saw a 40 percent increase in net worth.
    Wages rose fastest for low-income and blue collar workers – a 16 percent pay increase.
    African American homeownership increased from 41.7 percent to 46.4 percent.

Brought jobs, factories, and industries back to the USA.

    Created more than 1.2 million manufacturing and construction jobs.
    Put in place policies to bring back supply chains from overseas.
    Small business optimism broke a 35-year old record in 2018.

Hit record stock market numbers and record 401ks.

    The DOW closed above 20,000 for the first time in 2017 and topped 30,000 in 2020.
    The S&P 500 and NASDAQ have repeatedly notched record highs.

Rebuilding and investing in rural America.

    Signed an Executive Order on Modernizing the Regulatory Framework for Agricultural Biotechnology Products, which is bringing innovative new technologies to market in American farming and agriculture.
    Strengthened America’s rural economy by investing over $1.3 billion through the Agriculture Department’s ReConnect Program to bring high-speed broadband infrastructure to rural America.

Achieved a record-setting economic comeback by rejecting blanket lockdowns.

    An October 2020 Gallup survey found 56 percent of Americans said they were better off during a pandemic than four years prior.
    During the third quarter of 2020, the economy grew at a rate of 33.1 percent – the most rapid GDP growth ever recorded.
    Since coronavirus lockdowns ended, the economy has added back over 12 million jobs, more than half the jobs lost.
    Jobs have been recovered 23 times faster than the previous administration’s recovery.
    Unemployment fell to 6.7 percent in December, from a pandemic peak of 14.7 percent in April – beating expectations of well over 10 percent unemployment through the end of 2020.
    Under the previous administration, it took 49 months for the unemployment rate to fall from 10 percent to under 7 percent compared to just 3 months for the Trump Administration.
    Since April, the Hispanic unemployment rate has fallen by 9.6 percent, Asian-American unemployment by 8.6 percent, and Black American unemployment by 6.8 percent.
    80 percent of small businesses are now open, up from just 53 percent in April.
    Small business confidence hit a new high.
    Homebuilder confidence reached an all-time high, and home sales hit their highest reading since December 2006.
    Manufacturing optimism nearly doubled.
    Household net worth rose $7.4 trillion in Q2 2020 to $112 trillion, an all-time high.
    Home prices hit an all-time record high.
    The United States rejected crippling lockdowns that crush the economy and inflict countless public health harms and instead safely reopened its economy.
    Business confidence is higher in America than in any other G7 or European Union country.
    Stabilized America’s financial markets with the establishment of a number of Treasury Department supported facilities at the Federal Reserve.

Passed $3.2 trillion in historic tax relief and reformed the tax code.

    Signed the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act – the largest tax reform package in history.
    More than 6 million American workers received wage increases, bonuses, and increased benefits thanks to the tax cuts.
    A typical family of four earning $75,000 received an income tax cut of more than $2,000 – slashing their tax bill in half.
    Doubled the standard deduction – making the first $24,000 earned by a married couple completely tax-free.
    Doubled the child tax credit.
    Virtually eliminated the unfair Estate Tax, or Death Tax.
    Cut the business tax rate from 35 percent – the highest in the developed world – all the way down to 21 percent.
    Small businesses can now deduct 20 percent of their business income.
    Businesses can now deduct 100 percent of the cost of their capital investments in the year the investment is made.
    Since the passage of tax cuts, the share of total wealth held by the bottom half of households has increased, while the share held by the top 1 percent has decreased.
    Over 400 companies have announced bonuses, wage increases, new hires, or new investments in the United States.
    Over $1.5 trillion was repatriated into the United States from overseas.
    Lower investment cost and higher capital returns led to faster growth in the middle class, real wages, and international competitiveness.

Jobs and investments are pouring into Opportunity Zones.

    Created nearly 9,000 Opportunity Zones where capital gains on long-term investments are taxed at zero.
    Opportunity Zone designations have increased property values within them by 1.1 percent, creating an estimated $11 billion in wealth for the nearly half of Opportunity Zone residents who own their own home.
    Opportunity Zones have attracted $75 billion in funds and driven $52 billion of new investment in economically distressed communities, creating at least 500,000 new jobs.
    Approximately 1 million Americans will be lifted from poverty as a result of these new investments.
    Private equity investments into businesses in Opportunity Zones were nearly 30 percent higher than investments into businesses in similar areas that were not designated Opportunity Zones.

Ended the regulatory assault on American Businesses and Workers.

    Instead of 2-for-1, we eliminated 8 old regulations for every 1 new regulation adopted.
    Provided the average American household an extra $3,100 every year.
    Reduced the direct cost of regulatory compliance by $50 billion, and will reduce costs by an additional $50 billion in FY 2020 alone.
    Removed nearly 25,000 pages from the Federal Register – more than any other president. The previous administration added over 16,000 pages.
    Established the Governors’ Initiative on Regulatory Innovation to reduce outdated regulations at the state, local, and tribal levels.
    Signed an executive order to make it easier for businesses to offer retirement plans.
    Signed two executive orders to increase transparency in Federal agencies and protect Americans and their small businesses from administrative abuse.
    Modernized the National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA) for the first time in over 40 years.
    Reduced approval times for major infrastructure projects from 10 or more years down to 2 years or less.
    Helped community banks by signing legislation that rolled back costly provisions of Dodd-Frank.
    Established the White House Council on Eliminating Regulatory Barriers to Affordable Housing to bring down housing costs.
    Removed regulations that threatened the development of a strong and stable internet.
    Eased and simplified restrictions on rocket launches, helping to spur commercial investment in space projects.
    Published a whole-of-government strategy focused on ensuring American leadership in automated vehicle technology.
    Streamlined energy efficiency regulations for American families and businesses, including preserving affordable lightbulbs, enhancing the utility of showerheads, and enabling greater time savings with dishwashers.
    Removed unnecessary regulations that restrict the seafood industry and impede job creation.
    Modernized the Department of Agriculture’s biotechnology regulations to put America in the lead to develop new technologies.
    Took action to suspend regulations that would have slowed our response to COVID-19, including lifting restrictions on manufacturers to more quickly produce ventilators.

Successfully rolled back burdensome regulatory overreach.

    Rescinded the previous administration’s Affirmatively Furthering Fair Housing (AFFH) rule, which would have abolished zoning for single-family housing to build low-income, federally subsidized apartments.
    Issued a final rule on the Fair Housing Act’s disparate impact standard.
    Eliminated the Waters of the United States Rule and replaced it with the Navigable Waters Protection Rule, providing relief and certainty for farmers and property owners.
    Repealed the previous administration’s costly fuel economy regulations by finalizing the Safer Affordable Fuel Efficient (SAFE) Vehicles rule, which will make cars more affordable, and lower the price of new vehicles by an estimated $2,200.

Americans now have more money in their pockets.

    Deregulation had an especially beneficial impact on low-income Americans who pay a much higher share of their incomes for overregulation.
    Cut red tape in the healthcare industry, providing Americans with more affordable healthcare and saving Americans nearly 10 percent on prescription drugs.
    Deregulatory efforts yielded savings to the medical community an estimated $6.6 billion – with a reduction of 42 million hours of regulatory compliance work through 2021.
    Removed government barriers to personal freedom and consumer choice in healthcare.
    Once fully in effect, 20 major deregulatory actions undertaken by the Trump Administration are expected to save American consumers and businesses over $220 billion per year.
    Signed 16 pieces of deregulatory legislation that will result in a $40 billion increase in annual real incomes.

Secured historic trade deals to defend American workers.

    Immediately withdrew from the job-killing Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP).
    Ended the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA), and replaced it with the brand new United States-Mexico-Canada Agreement (USMCA).
    The USMCA contains powerful new protections for American manufacturers, auto-makers, farmers, dairy producers, and workers.
    The USMCA is expected to generate over $68 billion in economic activity and potentially create over 550,000 new jobs over ten years.
    Signed an executive order making it government policy to Buy American and Hire American, and took action to stop the outsourcing of jobs overseas.
    Negotiated with Japan to slash tariffs and open its market to $7 billion in American agricultural products and ended its ban on potatoes and lamb.
    Over 90 percent of American agricultural exports to Japan now receive preferential treatment, and most are duty-free.
    Negotiated another deal with Japan to boost $40 billion worth of digital trade.
    Renegotiated the United States-Korea Free Trade Agreement, doubling the cap on imports of American vehicles and extending the American light truck tariff.
    Reached a written, fully-enforceable Phase One trade agreement with China on confronting pirated and counterfeit goods, and the protection of American ideas, trade secrets, patents, and trademarks.
    China agreed to purchase an additional $200 billion worth of United States exports and opened market access for over 4,000 American facilities to exports while all tariffs remained in effect.
    Achieved a mutual agreement with the European Union (EU) that addresses unfair trade practices and increases duty-free exports by 180 percent to $420 million.
    Secured a pledge from the EU to eliminate tariffs on American lobster – the first United States-European Union negotiated tariff reduction in over 20 years.
    Scored a historic victory by overhauling the Universal Postal Union, whose outdated policies were undermining American workers and interests.
    Engaged extensively with trade partners like the EU and Japan to advance reforms to the World Trade Organization (WTO).
    Issued a first-ever comprehensive report on the WTO Appellate Body’s failures to comply with WTO rules and interpret WTO agreements as written.
    Blocked nominees to the WTO’s Appellate Body until WTO Members recognize and address longstanding issues with Appellate Body activism.
    Submitted 5 papers to the WTO Committee on Agriculture to improve Members’ understanding of how trade policies are implemented, highlight areas for improved transparency, and encourage members to maintain up-to-date notifications on market access and domestic support.

Took strong actions to confront unfair trade practices and put America First.

    Imposed tariffs on hundreds of billions worth of Chinese goods to protect American jobs and stop China’s abuses under Section 232 of the Trade Expansion Act of 1962 and Section 301 of the Trade Act of 1974.
    Directed an all-of-government effort to halt and punish efforts by the Communist Party of China to steal and profit from American innovations and intellectual property.
    Imposed tariffs on foreign aluminum and foreign steel to protect our vital industries and support our national security.
    Approved tariffs on $1.8 billion in imports of washing machines and $8.5 billion in imports of solar panels.
    Blocked illegal timber imports from Peru.
    Took action against France for its digital services tax that unfairly targets American technology companies.
    Launched investigations into digital services taxes that have been proposed or adopted by 10 other countries.

Historic support for American farmers.

    Successfully negotiated more than 50 agreements with countries around the world to increase foreign market access and boost exports of American agriculture products, supporting more than 1 million American jobs.
    Authorized $28 billion in aid for farmers who have been subjected to unfair trade practices – fully funded by the tariffs paid by China.
    China lifted its ban on poultry, opened its market to beef, and agreed to purchase at least $80 billion of American agricultural products in the next two years.
    The European Union agreed to increase beef imports by 180 percent and opened up its market to more imports of soybeans.
    South Korea lifted its ban on American poultry and eggs, and agreed to provide market access for record exports of American rice.
    Argentina lifted its ban on American pork.
    Brazil agreed to increase wheat imports by $180 million a year and raised its quotas for purchases of United States ethanol.
    Guatemala and Tunisia opened up their markets to American eggs.
    Won tariff exemptions in Ecuador for wheat and soybeans.
    Suspended $817 million in trade preferences for Thailand under the Generalized System of Preferences (GSP) program due to its failure to adequately provide reasonable market access for American pork products.
    The amount of food stamps redeemed at farmers markets increased from $1.4 million in May 2020 to $1.75 million in September 2020 – a 50 percent increase over last year.
    Rapidly deployed the Coronavirus Food Assistance Program, which provided $30 billion in support to farmers and ranchers facing decreased prices and market disruption when COVID-19 impacted the food supply chain.
    Authorized more than $6 billion for the Farmers to Families Food Box program, which delivered over 128 million boxes of locally sourced, produce, meat, and dairy products to charity and faith-based organizations nationwide.
    Delegated authorities via the Defense Production Act to protect breaks in the American food supply chain as a result of COVID-19.

(Continued in next post)
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on May 07, 2022, 09:09:25 PM
Unleashed America’s oil and natural gas potential.

    For the first time in nearly 70 years, the United States has become a net energy exporter.
    The United States is now the number one producer of oil and natural gas in the world.
    Natural gas production reached a record-high of 34.9 quads in 2019, following record high production in 2018 and in 2017.
    The United States has been a net natural gas exporter for three consecutive years and has an export capacity of nearly 10 billion cubic feet per day.
    Withdrew from the unfair, one-sided Paris Climate Agreement.
    Canceled the previous administration’s Clean Power Plan, and replaced it with the new Affordable Clean Energy rule.
    Approved the Keystone XL and Dakota Access pipelines.
    Opened up the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge (ANWR) in Alaska to oil and gas leasing.
    Repealed the last administration’s Federal Coal Leasing Moratorium, which prohibited coal leasing on Federal lands.
    Reformed permitting rules to eliminate unnecessary bureaucracy and speed approval for mines.
    Fixed the New Source Review permitting program, which punished companies for upgrading or repairing coal power plants.
    Fixed the Environmental Protection Agency’s (EPA) steam electric and coal ash rules.
    The average American family saved $2,500 a year in lower electric bills and lower prices at the gas pump.
    Signed legislation repealing the harmful Stream Protection Rule.
    Reduced the time to approve drilling permits on public lands by half, increasing permit applications to drill on public lands by 300 percent.
    Expedited approval of the NuStar’s New Burgos pipeline to export American gasoline to Mexico.
    Streamlined Liquefied natural gas (LNG) terminal permitting and allowed long-term LNG export authorizations to be extended through 2050.
    The United States is now among the top three LNG exporters in the world.
    Increased LNG exports five-fold since January 2017, reaching an all-time high in January 2020.
    LNG exports are expected to reduce the American trade deficit by over $10 billion.
    Granted more than 20 new long-term approvals for LNG exports to non-free trade agreement countries.
    The development of natural gas and LNG infrastructure in the United States is providing tens of thousands of jobs, and has led to the investment of tens of billions of dollars in infrastructure.
    There are now 6 LNG export facilities operating in the United States, with 2 additional export projects under construction.
    The amount of nuclear energy production in 2019 was the highest on record, through a combination of increased capacity from power plant upgrades and shorter refueling and maintenance cycles.
    Prevented Russian energy coercion across Europe through various lines of effort, including the Partnership for Transatlantic Energy Cooperation, civil nuclear deals with Romania and Poland, and opposition to Nord Stream 2 pipeline.
    Issued the Presidential Permit for the A2A railroad between Canada and Alaska, providing energy resources to emerging markets.

Increased access to our country’s abundant natural resources in order to achieve energy independence.

    Renewable energy production and consumption both reached record highs in 2019.
    Enacted policies that helped double the amount of electricity generated by solar and helped increase the amount of wind generation by 32 percent from 2016 through 2019.
    Accelerated construction of energy infrastructure to ensure American energy producers can deliver their products to the market.
    Cut red tape holding back the construction of new energy infrastructure.
    Authorized ethanol producers to sell E15 year-round and allowed higher-ethanol gasoline to be distributed from existing pumps at filling stations.
    Ensured greater transparency and certainty in the Renewable Fuel Standard (RFS) program.
    Negotiated leasing capacity in the Strategic Petroleum Reserve to Australia, providing American taxpayers a return on this infrastructure investment.
    Signed an executive order directing Federal agencies to work together to diminish the capability of foreign adversaries to target our critical electric infrastructure.
    Reformed Section 401 of the Clean Water Act regulation to allow for the curation of interstate infrastructure.
    Resolved the OPEC (Organization of the Petroleum Exporting Countries) oil crisis during COVID-19 by getting OPEC, Russia, and others to cut nearly 10 million barrels of production a day, stabilizing world oil prices.
    Directed the Department of Energy to use the Strategic Petroleum Reserve to mitigate market volatility caused by COVID-19.

Affordable and high-quality Child Care for American workers and their families.

    Doubled the Child Tax Credit from $1,000 to $2,000 per child and expanded the eligibility for receiving the credit.
    Nearly 40 million families benefitted from the child tax credit (CTC), receiving an average benefit of $2,200 – totaling credits of approximately $88 billion.
    Signed the largest-ever increase in Child Care and Development Block Grants – expanding access to quality, affordable child care for more than 800,000 low-income families.
    Secured an additional $3.5 billion in the Coronavirus Aid, Relief, and Economic Security (CARES) Act to help families and first responders with child care needs.
    Created the first-ever paid family leave tax credit for employees earning $72,000 or less.
    Signed into law 12-weeks of paid parental leave for Federal workers.
    Signed into law a provision that enables new parents to withdraw up to $5,000 from their retirement accounts without penalty when they give birth to or adopt a child.

Advanced apprenticeship career pathways to good-paying jobs.

    Expanded apprenticeships to more than 850,000 and established the new Industry-Recognized Apprenticeship programs in new and emerging fields.
    Established the National Council for the American Worker and the American Workforce Policy Advisory Board.
    Over 460 companies have signed the Pledge to America’s Workers, committing to provide more than 16 million job and training opportunities.
    Signed an executive order that directs the Federal government to replace outdated degree-based hiring with skills-based hiring.

Advanced women’s economic empowerment.

    Included women’s empowerment for the first time in the President’s 2017 National Security Strategy.
    Signed into law key pieces of legislation, including the Women, Peace, and Security Act and the Women Entrepreneurship and Economic Empowerment Act.
    Launched the Women’s Global Development and Prosperity (W-GDP) Initiative – the first-ever whole-of-government approach to women’s economic empowerment that has reached 24 million women worldwide.
    Established an innovative new W-GDP Fund at USAID.
    Launched the Women Entrepreneurs Finance Initiative (We-Fi) with 13 other nations.
    Announced a $50 million donation on behalf of the United States to We-Fi providing more capital to women-owned businesses around the world.
    Released the first-ever Strategy on Women, Peace, and Security, which focused on increasing women’s participation to prevent and resolve conflicts.
    Launched the W-GDP 2x Global Women’s Initiative with the Development Finance Corporation, which has mobilized more than $3 billion in private sector investments over three years.

Ensured American leadership in technology and innovation.

    First administration to name artificial intelligence, quantum information science, and 5G communications as national research and development priorities.
    Launched the American Broadband Initiative to promote the rapid deployment of broadband internet across rural America.
    Made 100 megahertz of crucial mid-band spectrum available for commercial operations, a key factor to driving widespread 5G access across rural America.
    Launched the American AI Initiative to ensure American leadership in artificial intelligence (AI), and established the National AI Initiative Office at the White House.
    Established the first-ever principles for Federal agency adoption of AI to improve services for the American people.
    Signed the National Quantum Initiative Act establishing the National Quantum Coordination Office at the White House to drive breakthroughs in quantum information science.
    Signed the Secure 5G and Beyond Act to ensure America leads the world in 5G.
    Launched a groundbreaking program to test safe and innovative commercial drone operations nationwide.
    Issued new rulemaking to accelerate the return of American civil supersonic aviation.
    Committed to doubling investments in AI and quantum information science (QIS) research and development.
    Announced the establishment of $1 billion AI and quantum research institutes across America.
    Established the largest dual-use 5G test sites in the world to advance 5G commercial and military innovation.
    Signed landmark Prague Principles with America’s allies to advance the deployment of secure 5G telecommunications networks.
    Signed first-ever bilateral AI cooperation agreement with the United Kingdom.
    Built collation among allies to ban Chinese Telecom Company Huawei from their 5G infrastructure.

Preserved American jobs for American workers and rejected the importation of cheap foreign labor.

    Pressured the Tennessee Valley Authority (TVA) to reverse their decision to lay off over 200 American workers and replace them with cheaper foreign workers.
    Removed the TVA Chairman of the Board and a TVA Board Member.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: yossarian22c on May 07, 2022, 09:48:30 PM
Wm, I have no interest in reading, refuting, or agreeing with what ever website you copy and pasted that from. You want to have a discussion, bring up what you think is good and important don’t drop in the greatest hits from “trump is great dot com.”

Would you engage with me if I just posted the Washington posts list of trump’s 10,000 lies?
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: TheDrake on May 08, 2022, 02:38:07 PM
I would refute any of that laundry list if I thought it would lead to a discussion in good faith. Like pointing out that "opportunity zones" and a lot of other things on that list were simply giving tax breaks to the reach with vague promises of it "trickling down". In many cases they went to developers who already had plans, which is erroneously counted as "jobs created". He certainly increased the number of people employed by people getting huge tax breaks. Other items don't even reflect any value that I hold. I don't want more oil and gas, I want less of it. I want it choked off and wiped out. I want fuel to triple in price.

The fact that you think America leads the world in 5G is delusional. South Korea holds that crown.

It sort of looks like this list was cribbed from an obscure italian blogger (https://nicolafacciolini.blogspot.com/2021/01/il-bilancio-del-presidente-donald-trump.html?view=flipcard). But perhaps it is a rebroadcast of material from Trump Social.

Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on May 08, 2022, 07:46:28 PM
Ignoring Wm's data dump, we have another loss.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/federal-judge-obliterates-trump-short-233417639.html
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on May 08, 2022, 09:12:13 PM
Wm, I have no interest in reading, refuting, or agreeing with what ever website you copy and pasted that from. You want to have a discussion, bring up what you think is good and important don’t drop in the greatest hits from “trump is great dot com.”

Would you engage with me if I just posted the Washington posts list of trump’s 10,000 lies?

That is from the official White House website cataloging the Trump accomplishments. Nothing posted because of opinion - just pure metrics.

Please examine the Biden White House website and look at the lack of accomplishments. If you find anything, remember Biden is a plagiarist and liar, so check the Trump list and see what Biden claims as his, that Trump actually did.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: yossarian22c on May 09, 2022, 09:20:58 AM
Wm, I have no interest in reading, refuting, or agreeing with what ever website you copy and pasted that from. You want to have a discussion, bring up what you think is good and important don’t drop in the greatest hits from “trump is great dot com.”

Would you engage with me if I just posted the Washington posts list of trump’s 10,000 lies?

That is from the official White House website cataloging the Trump accomplishments. Nothing posted because of opinion - just pure metrics.
...

I don't care what Trump says Trump did. I pointed out two specific instances where he made high profile promises repeatedly and failed to deliver. Your response was democrats stopped the wall. In the areas where the wall was finished it didn't stop crossings. It has been breached multiple times and Mexico didn't pay. Its why we shouldn't spend hundreds of billions on a border wall. As to the taxes and financial records Trump provided the minimum required by law, not more than any other candidate in history. Unless you simply want to count the number of pages because Trump maintained his controlling interest in his business while being President. His finances are complicated therefore required more pages of required disclosure.

The wall money would have been better spent in a lot of ways. But how about on renewable energy and electric cars. We see the dire national security and economic consequences of relying on Saudi Arabia, Venezuela, Russia, and Iran to provide the world with energy supplies. What did Trump do on that? Tried to role back environmental and fuel efficiency standards that Obama put in.

If you want to discuss a topic, discuss it. I'm never going to engage with that data dump of copy and paste, I don't care where its from.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on May 11, 2022, 07:49:16 PM
...I pointed out two specific instances where he made high profile promises repeatedly and failed to deliver. Your response was democrats stopped the wall. In the areas where the wall was finished it didn't stop crossings. It has been breached multiple times and Mexico didn't pay. Its why we shouldn't spend hundreds of billions on a border wall. As to the taxes and financial records Trump provided the minimum required by law, not more than any other candidate in history. Unless you simply want to count the number of pages because Trump maintained his controlling interest in his business while being President. His finances are complicated therefore required more pages of required disclosure.

The wall money would have been better spent in a lot of ways. But how about on renewable energy and electric cars. We see the dire national security and economic consequences of relying on Saudi Arabia, Venezuela, Russia, and Iran to provide the world with energy supplies. What did Trump do on that? Tried to role back environmental and fuel efficiency standards that Obama put in.

If you want to discuss a topic, discuss it. I'm never going to engage with that data dump of copy and paste, I don't care where its from.

But that's what you just did. Admit it. Trump's promises to make Mexico pay for the wall was slowed because of Democrat foot-dragging - yet he went around them and got Mexico to pay in kind in trade concessions and providing Mexican soldiers to patrol on their side of the wall. He explains it in depth in almost every rally he gives, yet you've never heard it or understood it at all.

I challenge you to look at that "data dump" you are so frightened of. Item after item. Pure unchallengeable metrics that you cannot argue out of existence. You especially missed all those things that Trump accomplished that the plagiarist, Biden, said he did.

How about a sample of your own verity? Explain the one statement that the average American family saved $2,500 a year in lower electric bills and lower prices at the gas pump.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: yossarian22c on May 12, 2022, 11:20:03 AM
...I pointed out two specific instances where he made high profile promises repeatedly and failed to deliver. Your response was democrats stopped the wall. In the areas where the wall was finished it didn't stop crossings. It has been breached multiple times and Mexico didn't pay. Its why we shouldn't spend hundreds of billions on a border wall. As to the taxes and financial records Trump provided the minimum required by law, not more than any other candidate in history. Unless you simply want to count the number of pages because Trump maintained his controlling interest in his business while being President. His finances are complicated therefore required more pages of required disclosure.

The wall money would have been better spent in a lot of ways. But how about on renewable energy and electric cars. We see the dire national security and economic consequences of relying on Saudi Arabia, Venezuela, Russia, and Iran to provide the world with energy supplies. What did Trump do on that? Tried to role back environmental and fuel efficiency standards that Obama put in.

If you want to discuss a topic, discuss it. I'm never going to engage with that data dump of copy and paste, I don't care where its from.

But that's what you just did. Admit it. Trump's promises to make Mexico pay for the wall was slowed because of Democrat foot-dragging - yet he went around them and got Mexico to pay in kind in trade concessions and providing Mexican soldiers to patrol on their side of the wall. He explains it in depth in almost every rally he gives, yet you've never heard it or understood it at all.

I don't take Trump's word for Trump's accomplishments. Just like I don't take his word that he is a "stable genius". How did the Democrats prevent Trump from getting Mexico to pay for the wall? They prevented him from wasting tax payer money on it. Last time I checked Republicans had full control of the house and senate for the first two years of Trump's term and budget reconciliation (which the wall could be built under isn't part of the filibuster). Mexico's trade "concessions" had nothing to do with the wall or did anything to get direct payments to the American government for construction of a wall that took only a few months to be repeatedly breached. I'm sure all the American service men whose base housing, schools, and facilities weren't upgraded are really happy that Trump took 4 billion from them to put towards his pet project that provides no safety or benefit to the country.

Quote
I challenge you to look at that "data dump" you are so frightened of. Item after item. Pure unchallengeable metrics that you cannot argue out of existence. You especially missed all those things that Trump accomplished that the plagiarist, Biden, said he did.

How about a sample of your own verity? Explain the one statement that the average American family saved $2,500 a year in lower electric bills and lower prices at the gas pump.

Okay what is the source of $2,500 a year in lower electric bills and gas prices? I will look at any single item or two you want to discuss. I'm not going to play whack-a-mole from a giant list you just pasted in from somewhere else. Would you defend Trump as a honest man if I posted the 10,000 lies the Washington Post accumulated? Or would you want me to identify lies I thought were important and substantive (because many on the list of lies aren't either).
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on May 12, 2022, 09:01:42 PM
...Would you defend Trump as a honest man if I posted the 10,000 lies the Washington Post accumulated? Or would you want me to identify lies I thought were important and substantive (because many on the list of lies aren't either).

Definitely. I can do so because I vetted those disinformational "lies" as they were made. Most are the same accusations over and over, and when totally refuted were added as another lie because they differed from the disinformation.

Here is what you back:
In four years, President Trump made 30,573 false or misleading claims

(Sorry, this post has been removed by the moderators of r/politics.
Moderators remove posts from feeds for a variety of reasons, including keeping communities safe, civil, and true to their purpose.)
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on May 13, 2022, 07:32:22 PM
https://www.yahoo.com/news/judge-refuses-drop-elections-suit-224040390.html
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: TheDrake on May 18, 2022, 09:32:45 AM
Mixed bag for Mr. Trump in the primaries. Cawthorn, known for weapons violations, bizarre claims about cocaine orgies, and his endorsement by Trump, has lost. The great and powerful Oz appears slightly ahead, but there will be recounts. Nobody seems to be concerned about fraud in those mail-in ballots or extended counting. Must be because all Republicans are above reproach, well except for the ones who have been caught committing fraud.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on May 20, 2022, 01:56:39 PM
He paid the fine.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-pays-110k-fine-must-170549761.html
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on May 24, 2022, 08:57:37 AM
So how many points will Perdue loose by today?  Trumps record in opposed primarys is not all that great. He had a win in Ohio and it is a tie so far in PA. He lost big in NE and lost a close one with Cawthorn in NC and will loose big again today in GA.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on May 25, 2022, 08:02:52 AM
So Trump's candidates in GA lost by even more than was expected.  Now the question is will he support Kemp against Abrams.  Or course not. Trump is all about personal loyalty and nothing else.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: yossarian22c on May 26, 2022, 05:05:20 PM
https://www.npr.org/2022/05/26/1101503129/trump-ordered-to-testify-new-york-investigation (https://www.npr.org/2022/05/26/1101503129/trump-ordered-to-testify-new-york-investigation)

Quote
Former President Donald Trump must answer questions under oath in New York state's civil investigation into his business practices, a state appeals court ruled Thursday.

Trump loses in court again.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: TheDrake on May 27, 2022, 08:24:30 AM
Quote
Last summer, spurred by evidence uncovered in James' civil investigation, the Manhattan district attorney's office charged the Trump Organization and its longtime finance chief, Allen Weisselberg, with tax fraud, alleging he collected more than $1.7 million in off-the-books compensation. Weisselberg and the company have pleaded not guilty.

While we're on the subject, does anyone think Alan didn't get a bunch of shady money? Even trump's supporters seem to be using the selective prosecution argument, not the it didn't happen argument.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: TheDrake on May 31, 2022, 12:27:34 PM
Quote
A federal jury found Michael Sussmann, a lawyer for Democrats including the Hillary Clinton presidential campaign, not guilty of lying to the FBI when he brought them allegations against Donald Trump during the 2016 presidential race.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on May 31, 2022, 12:31:44 PM
Just more proof of the Deep State. Soros and Gates bought off the jury, the judge, the defense lawyer, the bailiff and the janitor.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on May 31, 2022, 12:38:17 PM
This whole thread would be better named as, "Trump wins almost all the time - but loses to Democrat bias." How hard is it to realize the 2-1/2 years of attacking a sitting President was all about sedition, if not outright treason?
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: TheDrake on May 31, 2022, 12:49:33 PM
A Trump wins again thread would be entertaining. I wonder what kind of strange contortions would be necessary. I wonder how democrat bias has managed to make trumps endorsed Republicans in republican primaries lose
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on May 31, 2022, 12:52:36 PM
Because in GA Purdue actually won, if you get rid of the bogus votes of people that voted for Kemp. Same for Cawthorn and all of the others Trump supported and lost. They only lost because of cheating by the other side.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: TheDrake on May 31, 2022, 01:50:56 PM
Secret unverified wins are the best kind! If it wasn't for the democrats, Trump would have won the indy 500.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on May 31, 2022, 03:34:49 PM
And I was prophetic.

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/trump-pushes-bogus-article-claiming-185804082.html

No one gets 74% of the vote it says. Unless it is his guy. Then it is fine.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on May 31, 2022, 07:25:52 PM
Not directly Trump losing but it was inspired by him. So a loss for him.

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/supreme-court-blocks-texas-law-targeting-social-media-companies-212601246.html
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on June 01, 2022, 08:50:26 AM
But Trumps guy Herschel Walker won by 55 points. No one wins by 55 points. Must be massive fraud.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Wayward Son on June 01, 2022, 11:35:36 AM
When he heard that Michael Sussmann was acquitted of lying to the FBI, which supposedly caused him to be illegally surveilled, Trump reacted with his usual equanimity (https://www.mediaite.com/news/trump-rages-about-clinton-lawyer-sussmann-not-guilty-verdict-our-country-is-going-to-hell-enjoy-your-day/):

Quote
Our Legal System is CORRUPT, our Judges (and Justices!) are highly partisan, compromised or just plain scared, our Borders are OPEN, our Elections are Rigged, Inflation is RAMPANT, gas prices and food costs are “through the roof,” our Military “Leadership” is Woke, our Country is going to HELL, and Michael Sussmann is not guilty. How’s everything else doing? Enjoy your day!!!

He sounds like one of those angry old men from The Villages who chases kids off his lawn.  Did Trump recently move from Mar-A-Lago?  ???
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on June 01, 2022, 11:54:10 AM
If things do not go my way, it is not because I am wrong, it is the other guys fault. All of the evidence points to my being wrong but my ego will not allow me to admit that.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on June 01, 2022, 12:05:45 PM
Not directly Trump losing but it was inspired by him. So a loss for him.

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/supreme-court-blocks-texas-law-targeting-social-media-companies-212601246.html

No, not a loss for Trump ` just an indication of how the Left uses laws and rules designed for something else to be high-jacked and abused. ...Not a loss - because the attention is no longer hidden. The main charge is that these media monopolies are targeting Conservative posters. We all, as well as they, know that to be true. Does anyone disagree? In a Free Enterprise system, the answer is for the marketplace to work its magic. It will fix itself, but it will take time.

Pelosi will soon be out. Since the Democrats, once they gained power, used every opportunity they could muster to demonize and punish conservatives and Libertarians - The new majority may well justifiably dispense with comity and put some of the worst Democrats where they belong. It would do the nation a world of good to see Hillary and all her friends in orange jumpsuits being perp-walked to the short bus. However; if all the dirty Dems are indicted and found guilty, we may need a whole fleet of full-sized prison buses to take them away.

Look. You all know what Sussman did, and that Hillary was driving it. No one thinks the judge, whose wife was the lawyer for the hard-hearted Hannah of the FBI, made an honest legal decision. The next few Hoffman decisions won't be in DC.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on June 01, 2022, 12:10:51 PM
If things do not go my way, it is not because I am wrong, it is the other guys fault. All of the evidence points to my being wrong but my ego will not allow me to admit that.

Y'know what's funny about your post? You meant it as an ironic jab at Trump - but it was totally true because you applied it to yourself.

Biden is beside himself because his numbers are below Trump's - no matter how hard the media tries to force it.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on June 01, 2022, 12:17:11 PM
That's right, if the decision is something you don't like, they were evil/corrupt.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on June 01, 2022, 12:20:40 PM
When he heard that Michael Sussmann was acquitted of lying to the FBI, which supposedly caused him to be illegally surveilled, Trump reacted with his usual equanimity (https://www.mediaite.com/news/trump-rages-about-clinton-lawyer-sussmann-not-guilty-verdict-our-country-is-going-to-hell-enjoy-your-day/):

Quote
Our Legal System is CORRUPT, our Judges (and Justices!) are highly partisan, compromised or just plain scared, our Borders are OPEN, our Elections are Rigged, Inflation is RAMPANT, gas prices and food costs are “through the roof,” our Military “Leadership” is Woke, our Country is going to HELL, and Michael Sussmann is not guilty. How’s everything else doing? Enjoy your day!!!

He sounds like one of those angry old men from The Villages who chases kids off his lawn.  Did Trump recently move from Mar-A-Lago?  ???

How timely. Biden was just described last night, that way. In reaction to his whining about his staff cleaning up his messes, he was described as an old man chasing kids off his lawn.

In Trump's defense. We all know Sussman was instrumental in Hillary's plan to overthrow a legally elect6ed President. In lieu of a coup d'etat, she settled for sedition and treason. We also know the proceedings with a corrupt judge who should have recused himself and a Sussman-friendly DC jury reached an incorrect verdict.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on June 01, 2022, 12:27:30 PM
We all do not know that. We trust in the system. That is one of Trump's greatest crimes against America, undermining the trust in the system. For Trump, if things do not go his way, it is not that he is wrong, it is that the system is corrupt.  He has poisoned American's beliefs in ourselves for his own personal gain.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: yossarian22c on June 01, 2022, 12:27:44 PM
...
In Trump's defense. We all know Sussman was instrumental in Hillary's plan to overthrow a legally elect6ed President. In lieu of a coup d'etat, she settled for sedition and treason. We also know the proceedings with a corrupt judge who should have recused himself and a Sussman-friendly DC jury reached an incorrect verdict.

You have to quit using "we all know" to describe your private evidence free opinions that are shared by no one here.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: TheDrake on June 01, 2022, 12:59:23 PM
...
In Trump's defense. We all know Sussman was instrumental in Hillary's plan to overthrow a legally elect6ed President. In lieu of a coup d'etat, she settled for sedition and treason. We also know the proceedings with a corrupt judge who should have recused himself and a Sussman-friendly DC jury reached an incorrect verdict.

You have to quit using "we all know" to describe your private evidence free opinions that are shared by no one here.

It's the royal 'we'?
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on June 03, 2022, 10:48:52 AM
...
In Trump's defense. We all know Sussman was instrumental in Hillary's plan to overthrow a legally elect6ed President. In lieu of a coup d'etat, she settled for sedition and treason. We also know the proceedings with a corrupt judge who should have recused himself and a Sussman-friendly DC jury reached an incorrect verdict.

You have to quit using "we all know" to describe your private evidence free opinions that are shared by no one here.

It's the royal 'we'?

On the contrary. It is generally known by the majority of the people what has happened here. Trump was railroaded by Hillary and the Democrats, including the left-leaning Democrat apologists here in this forum. By any honest person, one cannot deny that the Russian collusion was made up out of whole cloth by Hillary and her people, and then abetted by the Clinton-aligned staff in the top floors of Justice. There is no longer any argument of that. The plan is how to outlast the guilt - not to plead innocence.

Hillary's people, including the judge in Sussman's case, want to believe that Sussman was not working on Hillary's behalf for claiming a non-existent Trump link to Alfabank, which he then billed for. Then they want to claim that Sussman did not get the go-ahead by Hillary to do so, even though we have the testimony from her own chief of staff that she did so. Weasels will waffle and say it was an innocent mistake that lasted two-and-a-half years and cost the country millions of dollars, several unsubstantiated impeachments, and systematic blocking of everything Trump was trying to accomplish. This has been called, by the best historians (not just the Clinton apologists) as the single worst example of political malfeasance, and failed coup d'etat, in the history of the country - yet it is still being defended in this forum.

Where are the heartfelt apologies?
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on June 03, 2022, 10:54:11 AM
William has both CDS and ODS.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: yossarian22c on June 03, 2022, 11:27:06 AM
...
On the contrary. It is generally known by the majority of the people what has happened here. Trump was railroaded by Hillary and the Democrats, including the left-leaning Democrat apologists here in this forum. By any honest person, one cannot deny that the Russian collusion was made up out of whole cloth by Hillary and her people, and then abetted by the Clinton-aligned staff in the top floors of Justice. There is no longer any argument of that. The plan is how to outlast the guilt - not to plead innocence.

Russia hacked the DNC and leaked emails. Trump's campaign manager and son met with people claiming to have dirt on Clinton from Russia. It wasn't made up out of whole clothe.

Quote
Hillary's people, including the judge in Sussman's case, want to believe that Sussman was not working on Hillary's behalf for claiming a non-existent Trump link to Alfabank, which he then billed for. Then they want to claim that Sussman did not get the go-ahead by Hillary to do so, even though we have the testimony from her own chief of staff that she did so.

The judge didn't find him not guilty that was the jury. I guess in your world they are all "Hillary's people" too?

Quote
Weasels will waffle and say it was an innocent mistake that lasted two-and-a-half years and cost the country millions of dollars, several unsubstantiated impeachments, and systematic blocking of everything Trump was trying to accomplish. This has been called, by the best historians (not just the Clinton apologists) as the single worst example of political malfeasance, and failed coup d'etat, in the history of the country - yet it is still being defended in this forum.

Where are the heartfelt apologies?

Who are the "best historians"?

Neither impeachment had anything to do with the Muller investigation. Why do you think they are related?
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on June 03, 2022, 06:07:06 PM
...
On the contrary. It is generally known by the majority of the people what has happened here. Trump was railroaded by Hillary and the Democrats, including the left-leaning Democrat apologists here in this forum. By any honest person, one cannot deny that the Russian collusion was made up out of whole cloth by Hillary and her people, and then abetted by the Clinton-aligned staff in the top floors of Justice. There is no longer any argument of that. The plan is how to outlast the guilt - not to plead innocence.

Russia hacked the DNC and leaked emails. Trump's campaign manager and son met with people claiming to have dirt on Clinton from Russia. It wasn't made up out of whole clothe.

No. People met with Trump's son claiming some unannounced pertinent info. When they did not do what they said they would, the meeting was cut short with all the Trump people wondering what the Hell these people were doing wasting their time. It was Hillary's people who worked with and paid for Russian made-up info they could try to use against Trump. All that stuff was found to be lies and disinformation. Take the time to educate yourself on what is now known - not what the complicit media pedaled four years ago.

Hillary's people, including the judge in Sussman's case, want to believe that Sussman was not working on Hillary's behalf for claiming a non-existent Trump link to Alfabank, which he then billed for. Then they want to claim that Sussman did not get the go-ahead by Hillary to do so, even though we have the testimony from her own chief of staff that she did so.

The judge didn't find him not guilty that was the jury. I guess in your world they are all "Hillary's people" too?

Again, Clinton apologist POV. The Judge and many in the jury were directly connected to Hillary and Sussman. We know Sussman did what was proven. The Jury tried to equate their unfounded lenience with Sussman skating when Durham nailed him.

dollars, several unsubstantiated impeachments, and systematic blocking of everything Trump was trying to accomplish. This has been called, by the best historians (not just the Clinton apologists) as the single worst example of political malfeasance, and failed coup d'etat, in the history of the country - yet it is still being defended in this forum.

Where are the heartfelt apologies?

Who are the "best historians"?

Neither impeachment had anything to do with the Muller investigation. Why do you think they are related?

Evidently, the historians that are honest and unbiased. The Impeachments were not caused by any action by Trump - only alleged misconduct which has been completely found to be erroneous. Mueller spent millions and basically exonerated Trump of all made-up charges.

Still waiting for the heartfelt apologies. You are just embarrassing yourselves. You do know your words are going to be out there for years as more and more disinformation that you cling to will be even more firmly debunked.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: yossarian22c on June 03, 2022, 06:31:15 PM

Quote
The judge didn't find him not guilty that was the jury. I guess in your world they are all "Hillary's people" too?

Again, Clinton apologist POV. The Judge and many in the jury were directly connected to Hillary and Sussman. We know Sussman did what was proven. The Jury tried to equate their unfounded lenience with Sussman skating when Durham nailed him.


The Jury is connected to Sussman?!? Beyond the fact no one knows who is on the jury, you just made the case for Durham being the most inept prosecutor in history. You have to ask yourself why you believe such things. What evidence convinced you the jury had ties to the defendant. That is an extraordinary claim. Needs some evidence, unless you just mean some members of the jury were democrats.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: yossarian22c on June 03, 2022, 06:35:04 PM
Who are the "best historians"?

Neither impeachment had anything to do with the Muller investigation. Why do you think they are related?

Evidently, the historians that are honest and unbiased. The Impeachments were not caused by any action by Trump - only alleged misconduct which has been completely found to be erroneous. Mueller spent millions and basically exonerated Trump of all made-up charges.

Still waiting for the heartfelt apologies. You are just embarrassing yourselves. You do know your words are going to be out there for years as more and more disinformation that you cling to will be even more firmly debunked.

Can you name one of these historians, so I can know who is the best?

Do you realize neither impeachment had anything to do with the Mueller investigation? Extorting Ukraine and January 6th. Those are the reasons for the impeachments.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on June 03, 2022, 07:14:05 PM
Who are the "best historians"?

Neither impeachment had anything to do with the Muller investigation. Why do you think they are related?

Evidently, the historians that are honest and unbiased. The Impeachments were not caused by any action by Trump - only alleged misconduct which has been completely found to be erroneous. Mueller spent millions and basically exonerated Trump of all made-up charges.

Still waiting for the heartfelt apologies. You are just embarrassing yourselves. You do know your words are going to be out there for years as more and more disinformation that you cling to will be even more firmly debunked.

Can you name one of these historians, so I can know who is the best?

Do you realize neither impeachment had anything to do with the Mueller investigation? Extorting Ukraine and January 6th. Those are the reasons for the impeachments.

You've got to be kidding. One impeachment was for threatening The Ukraine to investigate Hunter Biden - who we all know now was a very compromised individual., and whose father lied about it. The other one was for Jan 6, blaming him for the legal demonstration that got compromised when Pelosi's security invited and ushered people into the Capital Building. One protestor was killed by one of Pelosi's security, but no protestor hurt anyone, although Pelosi and Schumer lied about a policeman being hit by a fire extinguisher and killed. The incursion into the Capital was legal because we have videos of officers ushering and inviting them into it. The Doctrine of Laches says that made all incursions legal. There is more evidence for false actors trying to "dirty-up" the march than any Trump-supporter getting out of line.

The Ukraine was the stated reason for the first Impeachment, and Mueller was the factor that attacked his image for both. Unfounded accusations were factored in because Trump was believed to be dirty when he wasn't. Video showed Trump telling protestors to be safe and legal, yet the unfounded accusations produced a party-line verdict. Both impeachments will be lifted before too long. It was just more of the sedition and treason the Democrats exhibited.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on June 03, 2022, 07:49:17 PM
Once again William is proving my point.  Any proceeding that does not go Trump's way was not because he was wrong but because it was corrupt. This is Trump's most dangerous poison to American Society. Time and  time again Trump loses, even in front of Trump and Republican appointed judges and he still claims that it was rigged against him.

This one thing is the most evil thing Trump has done against the American Dream.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on June 03, 2022, 09:34:36 PM
...The Jury is connected to Sussman?!? Beyond the fact no one knows who is on the jury, you just made the case for Durham being the most inept prosecutor in history. You have to ask yourself why you believe such things. What evidence convinced you the jury had ties to the defendant. That is an extraordinary claim. Needs some evidence, unless you just mean some members of the jury were democrats.

No, you made the case for being ignorant of more than your Left-leaning, Never-Trumper doctrinal pejorative spin.

Just so you know, like those of us who have followed more than your disinformation, before the case was brought Durham had acknowledged that since Sussmann had to be tried in DC, the jury would probably be anti-Trump. The Law said Sussmann had to be tried in the city where the crime was committed, so that meant in DC. DC is 91% Democrat, and the prosecution is only allowed six disqualifications, while the defense gets ten - which wiped out any jurists with a chance of being impartial. Judge Cooper is a deeply embedded Democrat, appointed by Obama and connected to the party. He was married by Merrick Garland, and his wife represented Lisa Page. He admitted he worked with Sussmann in the DOJ. Cooper disallowed the most flagrant conflicts which should not need a challenge. He let in the mother of a player on Sussmann's daughter's team, and anyone who donated to Hillary. Durham assumed the fix was in here, but addressed this by stating his next indictments will not be heard in DC.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on June 03, 2022, 09:44:13 PM
Once again William is proving my point.  Any proceeding that does not go Trump's way was not because he was wrong but because it was corrupt. This is Trump's most dangerous poison to American Society. Time and  time again Trump loses, even in front of Trump and Republican appointed judges and he still claims that it was rigged against him.

This one thing is the most evil thing Trump has done against the American Dream.

Once again, msquared proves his inability to think without his Leftist blinders on. Anyone who resists his bullying and narcissistic attacks is evil. Why didn't he address Christopher Cooper's refusal to recuse himself as a Democrat (Hillary) apologist? Almost any good GOP judge would have done so to avoid the appearance of impropriety. To a dyed-in-the-wool Democrat functionary, the ends always justifies the means.

It's sad, not funny that Trump is the one politician supporting the American Dream - yet msquared is 180° out of whack. As I pointed out earlier, Trump has won over and over again - in spite of everything the seditious Democrats have done
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: TheDrake on June 03, 2022, 11:36:49 PM
QAnon tears of frustration (https://tonyortega.org/2022/06/01/q-patriots-in-a-tailspin-after-3-year-durham-probes-first-case-ends-in-acquittal/)

Follow the twisted logic. If Sussman had been convicted, then that meant the FBI was acting in good faith so he threw the case in order to target the FBI for knowing Sussman was working for Hillary.

Not all the WWG1WGA crowd is satisfied with that explanation as to why Durham failed.

As for the judge? You know that Durham didn't push for his recusal. Must have been part of his master plan to lose on purpose. Meanwhile, no information on what he did to supposedly influence the trial. No complaints about ruling evidence in or out, no complaints about witness handling, no unusual jury instructions. But I'm not surprised your upset, wm, when you believe that just knowing a democrat means you're incorrigibly biased. Every Obama and Clinton appointee is amoral trying to sway the outcome of every case to advance their nefarious cause.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on June 04, 2022, 08:02:33 AM
Here is the difference.  I am not a Hillary supporter.  I could not care less if she is charged, tried, found guilty and goes to jail for a crime she committed.  However, it has been 3 years and the best they could find is that 1 lawyer who represented her, and other clients, may have lied to the FBI (now found innocent of the charge).

Wm, you and your group would throw then all in jail with out a trial. Trump's own words "lock her up".  Trump has poisoned you against the system.  Like I said that is his greatest sin.

I am not a democrat. I am a good Republican but not a Trumpist. But Trump has brought out the worst side of the conservative movement. Racism, bigotry, hatred.  I do not hate Trump. I pity him.  I hate what he has done to the Party I grew up with and what he has done to American Society.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on June 04, 2022, 11:25:15 AM
QAnon tears of frustration (https://tonyortega.org/2022/06/01/q-patriots-in-a-tailspin-after-3-year-durham-probes-first-case-ends-in-acquittal/)

Follow the twisted logic. If Sussman had been convicted, then that meant the FBI was acting in good faith so he threw the case in order to target the FBI for knowing Sussman was working for Hillary.

Not all the WWG1WGA crowd is satisfied with that explanation as to why Durham failed.

I explained why the Cooper Court rescued Sussmann and Hillary. There is no controversy. Evidently, Durham knew the fix would be in for a trial in DC. He did the spadework for future cases out of DC. What he did do is get Hillary legally connected to the media getting the Steel Dosier and the Alfabank disinformation.

As for the judge? You know that Durham didn't push for his recusal. Must have been part of his master plan to lose on purpose. Meanwhile, no information on what he did to supposedly influence the trial. No complaints about ruling evidence in or out, no complaints about witness handling, no unusual jury instructions. But I'm not surprised your upset, wm, when you believe that just knowing a democrat means you're incorrigibly biased. Every Obama and Clinton appointee is amoral trying to sway the outcome of every case to advance their nefarious cause.

Yes, Durham did not ask for the Judge's recusal. This may have had something to do with the rules in DC. He was fighting the clock for other indictments, which I thought was a poor decision. It may be that if he really wants justice, he may have been resigned to a fixed trial in DC, so kept the cases independent to concentrate on the next ones. However; Mook's testimony is now written in the lawbooks, so Hillary is now a target.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on June 04, 2022, 11:58:01 AM
Here is the difference.  I am not a Hillary supporter.  I could not care less if she is charged, tried, found guilty and goes to jail for a crime she committed.  However, it has been 3 years and the best they could find is that 1 lawyer who represented her, and other clients, may have lied to the FBI (now found innocent of the charge).

No. You are a Never-Trumper - a worse label than being a Democrat. If you bought into the years-long scandalous lies and straw-man construction of an anti-Trump, then that is your problem. I am happy to see the good - not obsess on incorrect conjecture that you accepted in the face of truth dispelling what you religiously believe..

Wm, you and your group would throw then all in jail with out a trial. Trump's own words "lock her up".  Trump has poisoned you against the system.  Like I said that is his greatest sin.

Again you use your own bias and act like your sin belongs to anyone who challenges your beliefs. Like I said: "religiously." No one I know would throw anyone in jail without a trial. However; you consistently allow your protected "saints" from true justice. Hillary should already be serving time. Comey listed her transgressions with eMails- then exonerated her by saying no prosecutor would go after her because there is no proof of intent. I already pointed out chapter and verse of the laws she violated - which specifically said intent does not invalidate her guilt. People yell, "Lock her up!" because they know she should already be in an orange jumpsuit and proving to the nation that nobody is above the law. There is a probability that the top Dems getting away with lies, disinformation, sedition, and treason allowed all the lower-level Dems in all the key states to have so obviously scammed the 2020 elections without fear of consequences. It's taken awhile, but more and more tainted elections have been proved and the win given to the true winners. Look it up. There's a new one every day.

I am not a democrat. I am a good Republican but not a Trumpist. But Trump has brought out the worst side of the conservative movement. Racism, bigotry, hatred.  I do not hate Trump. I pity him.  I hate what he has done to the Party I grew up with and what he has done to American Society.

Once again, no. There are no Trumpists. There are only those who reject the Never-Trumpers, like you, who lost their way. I have never claimed to be a Republican, but you never noticed that. You believe disinformation, and when confronted with truth, won't accept it, but instead, attack the messenger. Do your own homework and stop mirroring the latest DNC talking points, while claiming your neutrality. If being a "good" Republican in your mind means demeaning the most successful and honorable President in the history of our country, then you are only a know-nothing of the Washington Swamp. You are a Never-Trumper. Look what Liz Cheney bought herself with her similar idiocy. Tell us about Hillary and Joe. To you, do they still walk on water? How about OAC, Schiff, Comey, Hillary, and the rest?
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Tom on June 04, 2022, 01:16:32 PM
Your staggering lack of self-awareness is less amusing when it's causing you to insult people, William.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Crunch on June 04, 2022, 01:27:14 PM
Your staggering lack of self-awareness is less amusing when it's causing you to insult people, William.

Sick burn, bro. I bet you’re the shiznet at recess.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Tom on June 04, 2022, 01:44:51 PM
I don't want you to get the impression that I'm taking your criticism seriously, Crunch, because I know you're intellectually dishonest in all your interactions here, but I do want to acknowledge that I think William sincerely does not recognize how far his impressions deviate from reality.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on June 04, 2022, 02:43:18 PM
I don't want you to get the impression that I'm taking your criticism seriously, Crunch, because I know you're intellectually dishonest in all your interactions here, but I do want to acknowledge that I think William sincerely does not recognize how far his impressions deviate from reality.

Actually, Tom - it is an observable trait in this forum for the Never-Trumpers, who are the haters, to point at their victims as the bullies. If one stands up for oneself and posits facts and truths that the bullies proclaim as dealt with and proved wrong (when they're not), then that person is castigated.

I have seen almost every Leftist here, including Never-Trumpers use the bully fallacy: Laughter by Intimidation. Representing the advocate as being out of step with "right-thinking people" to the point where everyone laughs at your ridiculous viewpoint. No rebuttal is offered - just ridicule the messenger.

I say most people know Hillary is guilty of several crimes. I am not met with proof of innocence or challenges to the codes she provably violated, nor shown any error in basic facts, just called names. The only real answer to that they may use is to call most people too stupid to know she broke the law. The law was broken. That is not in dispute. But that is never admitted to. The next step? Laughter by Intimidation. They don't seem to understand that using that fallacy is a indication to indict themselves.

Notice the thrust is against how far "impressions deviate from reality." Two mistakes in that. Facts not in dispute are not merely "impressions." The other mistake is for "Reality" to be subjective for them to decide upon.

Look, Judge Christopher Cooper far transgresses the appearance of impropriety. The facts are clear: he did work with Sussmann in the DOJ. His wife defended Lisa Page. Cooper is an acknowledged and self-admitted Democrat functionary. Merrick Garland married him. Does anyone here think that not excluding a prospect for the jury from the panel because she and Sussmann are both parents on the same sports team is beyond the pale? Can a jury prospect who contributed money to the group under scrutiny be an acceptable juror? According to Tom and others here, what impressions deviate from reality?

You see the reality is that in DC, Democrats are the vast (91%) majority and have a history of subscribing to the idea that the ends justify the means. When the Judge doesn't even try to look fair in establishing a jury, then the fix is in, isn't it?
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Tom on June 04, 2022, 02:52:22 PM
I'm genuinely not trying to intimidate you, for what it's worth. I think you're delusional. There is almost nothing you say, William, which is remotely true; some elements of your statements briefly dance along the edge of fact, but rarely intersect with it and even more rarely are relevant to what you think you're proving. (The whole "Judge Cooper knows people" bit, for example, only works consistently if you also believe that Scalia and Thomas should recuse themselves from almost all election decisions.) You're not the only poster here to which that applies, but I think you're the only one who believes what he says at all times. And that makes me sad, because you're emotionally committed to your inputs enough that I'm not under the impression that chatting with some Internet rando is going to help you.

If you would honestly like me to address why the things you said in the last post do not in fact constitute evidence of the reality you're asserting, I'll do so. But I'm not under the impression that you're even able to question your assumptions, so I'm reluctant to do so; as I've gotten older, I've developed less patience with rhetorical wanking, and I'm afraid that's all it would be. I don't need to demonstrate your wrongness to other people, and I'm almost entirely sure I wouldn't be able to demonstrate it to you, so all I had to say in the first place was "please don't insult other people based on your flawed understanding of reality, which gives you an unrealistic read on their motivations."
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Crunch on June 04, 2022, 04:47:50 PM
I don't want you to get the impression that I'm taking your criticism seriously, Crunch, because I know you're intellectually dishonest in all your interactions here, but I do want to acknowledge that I think William sincerely does not recognize how far his impressions deviate from reality.

Riiiiiiggghht.  Ok, bro
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on June 06, 2022, 03:18:24 PM
I'm genuinely not trying to intimidate you, for what it's worth. I think you're delusional. There is almost nothing you say, William, which is remotely true; some elements of your statements briefly dance along the edge of fact, but rarely intersect with it and even more rarely are relevant to what you think you're proving. (The whole "Judge Cooper knows people" bit, for example, only works consistently if you also believe that Scalia and Thomas should recuse themselves from almost all election decisions.) You're not the only poster here to which that applies, but I think you're the only one who believes what he says at all times. And that makes me sad, because you're emotionally committed to your inputs enough that I'm not under the impression that chatting with some Internet rando is going to help you.

If you would honestly like me to address why the things you said in the last post do not in fact constitute evidence of the reality you're asserting, I'll do so. But I'm not under the impression that you're even able to question your assumptions, so I'm reluctant to do so; as I've gotten older, I've developed less patience with rhetorical wanking, and I'm afraid that's all it would be. I don't need to demonstrate your wrongness to other people, and I'm almost entirely sure I wouldn't be able to demonstrate it to you, so all I had to say in the first place was "please don't insult other people based on your flawed understanding of reality, which gives you an unrealistic read on their motivations."

You are guilty of illogical pronouncements of your mental superiority. Hillary's crimes were not "rhetorcial wanking" - they were proved facts.

These laws were broken, not bent:
Quote
UNAUTHORIZED REMOVAL AND RETENTION OF CLASSIFIED DOCUMENTS OR MATERIAL
18 U.S.C. § 1924 Class: A misdemeanor
Possible penalty: imprisonment for 1 year and/or $100,000 fine
"Knowingly removing materials containing classified information of the United States with the intent to retain said info at an unauthorized location without the ability to do so."

GATHERING, TRANSMITTING OR LOSING DEFENSE INFORMATION
18 U.S.C. § 793 Class: Felony
Possible penalty: imprisonment for 10 years and/or $250,000 fine
"Allowing (by means of gross negligence) any document relating to the national defense to be removed from its proper place of custody or destroyed -or- willfully retaining unauthorized documents relating to national defense and failing to deliver them to the United States employee entitled to receive them -or- failure to report that unauthorized documents relating to national defense were removed from their proper place of custody or destroyed."

CONCEALING, REMOVAL, OR MUTILATION GENERALLY
18 U.S.C. § 2071 Class: Felony
Possible penalty: imprisonment of no more than 3 years, a fine, or both
"Whoever, having the custody of any such record, proceeding, map, book, document, paper, or other thing, willfully and unlawfully conceals, removes, mutilates, obliterates, falsifies, or destroys the same."

____________________________________

Hillary Clinton recklessly discussed, in emails hosted on her private server, an Iranian nuclear scientist who was executed by Iran for treason.
On "Face the Nation." Cotton was speaking about Shahram Amiri, who gave information to the U.S. about Iran's nuclear program.

Iran confirmed on Sunday that Amiri had been hanged for treason. He was convicted of spying charges in a death sentence case that was upheld on appeal, according to the Associated Press.

"This person who had access to the country's secret and classified information had been linked to our hostile and No. 1 enemy, America, the Great Satan" a spokesman for the Iranian judiciary said. "He provided the enemy with vital and secret information of the country."

If you research these codes, there is no get out of jail free card because of intent. She did it. She intended to do it. And she lied about doing it. Even if it was proved she was too stupid not to intend to break the law - the law says guilt is not dependent on intent. Just doing it is a felony.

BTW, you shouldn't be sad because I reject your partisan disinformation. Unlike you, I've done the work. What I said is accurate. And almost everything you have stated over the months have been proved wrong.

All your mindless lecturing about Dinesh D'Souza being a "proven" liar has been proved false. I guess you missed the guilty pleas of those mules and their providers of faked ballots. The 2,000 Mules documentary has been proved accurate. even the conjecture on final numbers was made with the minimum guesstimates. The actual numbers are far beyond the numbers necessary to overthrow the 2020 vote-scamming. This is not conjecture, nor opinion. Facts are easy to fight. You just ignore them and insult the messenger. We also have official confirmation that the counting computer systems have been hacked. The earlier protestations that the Dominion voting machines could not be hacked has been walked back. Mike Lindell is due for a huge windfall, if he decides to go after his lying detractors. They tried your tactic to defame the messenger and got caught. 

Respond again, and dig your hole deeper. Apologies appreciated.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Tom on June 06, 2022, 03:29:25 PM
Quote
Hillary's crimes were not "rhetorcial wanking"
You misunderstand. I was saying that I was reluctant to engage you because I am not under the impression that you are likely to be swayed by conversation, so the only reason to do so would be "rhetorical wanking" -- i.e. just arguing with you for the enjoyment of argument, and/or to demonstrate my superiority to a hypothetical audience.

It should be noted that everything you claim is "proven" in your post above is not in fact proven. But I am not under the impression that you can be convinced of this; I believe you are, in your delusions, quite immune to external demonstration of your wrongness. Please understand that this is the "rhetorical wanking" to which I referred; I know you aren't going to be receptive to actual conversation, because you have built walls around your brain to prevent anything from penetrating.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: yossarian22c on June 06, 2022, 03:31:28 PM
...
All your mindless lecturing about Dinesh D'Souza being a "proven" liar has been proved false. I guess you missed the guilty pleas of those mules and their providers of faked ballots. The 2,000 Mules documentary has been proved accurate. even the conjecture on final numbers was made with the minimum guesstimates. The actual numbers are far beyond the numbers necessary to overthrow the 2020 vote-scamming. This is not conjecture, nor opinion. Facts are easy to fight. You just ignore them and insult the messenger. We also have official confirmation that the counting computer systems have been hacked. The earlier protestations that the Dominion voting machines could not be hacked has been walked back. Mike Lindell is due for a huge windfall, if he decides to go after his lying detractors. They tried your tactic to defame the messenger and got caught. 

Respond again, and dig your hole deeper. Apologies appreciated.

Who has pled guilty? What crime did they plead guilty too? Where did they commit the fraud?

What in the documentary has been independently verified?

What official confirmation do you have that voting machines were hacked? In which state, county, precinct did the hacking occur?

No one ever claimed Dominion machines were unhackable. We claimed there was no evidence they were hacked during the election in 2020.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: yossarian22c on June 06, 2022, 03:35:49 PM
I don't want you to get the impression that I'm taking your criticism seriously, Crunch, because I know you're intellectually dishonest in all your interactions here, but I do want to acknowledge that I think William sincerely does not recognize how far his impressions deviate from reality.

Riiiiiiggghht.  Ok, bro

Its amazing you how consistently you have played the right wing character you've created over the years. Thought you would eventually get bored of it. Turns out you only get bored of your user names.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on June 14, 2022, 04:49:32 PM
Trump has to testify in NY.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/ny-high-court-nixes-trump-195305325.html

Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on June 15, 2022, 02:26:17 PM
The WI investigator who found no fraud but still did not like the results, and who has not turned over his work even though there are open record laws on the books in WI gets slammed by a judge.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/wisconsin-election-investigator-fined-2k-164950744.html
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on June 15, 2022, 02:37:14 PM
And Bannon takes a hit on his contempt charge

https://www.yahoo.com/news/bannon-offers-absurd-legal-argument-161756574.html
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on June 16, 2022, 12:57:06 PM
More bad new for Trump in NY.

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/real-estate-firm-must-comply-162142681.html
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: TheDrake on June 16, 2022, 03:44:43 PM
More bad new for Trump in NY.

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/real-estate-firm-must-comply-162142681.html

With any luck they'll get a chance to go after all the other people they inflated assessments for. Because I guarantee they didn't do this just for Trump.

They keep attempting to declare the reason for the probe as political. As opposed to just saying, "We didn't do that, here's all our notes and information, see for yourself."
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on June 16, 2022, 04:02:54 PM
And Bannon takes a hit on his contempt charge

https://www.yahoo.com/news/bannon-offers-absurd-legal-argument-161756574.html

Funny how the same actions are perceived differently by different people. https://republicbrief.com/bannon-returns-to-fed-courthouse-a-second-time-goes-nuclear/

According to your post:
Quote
A federal judge refused to throw Steve Bannon a lifeline on Wednesday, instead deciding that the right wing provocateur will indeed go to trial in the coming weeks for refusing to testify before the Jan. 6 Committee.

However, the judge indicated he may eventually hold the Department of Justice accountable for spying on one of Bannon's defense lawyers and secretly obtaining his call and email records.

Bannon is delighted to go to court and not to Committee, because with discovery, his accusers need to answer for their own violations.

Just for the record. One AZ Mule is written up here: https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2022/05/watch-az-state-senate-candidate-gary-snyder-yuma-county-school-board-member-set-plead-guilty-2020-election-ballot-trafficking-crimes-exposed-2000-mules-hearing-june-2nd/

There have been several Mules who plead guilty, and a supplier of scammed ballots has also plead. As for the media quashing all inquiries about Dominion Voting Machines being "unhackable", However this advisory was posted: https://www.cisa.gov/uscert/ics/advisories/icsa-22-154-01

There were four candidates. One was concerned after the vote was in, because Dominion said that candidate received zero votes. After a hand count, the entire election was changed, with the winner getting demoted out of the winner's circle. The proof was in the pudding that Dominion was hacked. Go search for any of this. It'll be hard to find, because even first-rate news articles written that say Dominion was hackable get taken down.






Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: yossarian22c on June 16, 2022, 04:36:50 PM
...

Just for the record. One AZ Mule is written up here: https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2022/05/watch-az-state-senate-candidate-gary-snyder-yuma-county-school-board-member-set-plead-guilty-2020-election-ballot-trafficking-crimes-exposed-2000-mules-hearing-june-2nd/

There have been several Mules who plead guilty, and a supplier of scammed ballots has also plead.
...

Thank you, you've found one person who inappropriately collected ballots. You have 4 inappropriately collected ballots for a primary from someone on the ballot. No allegations the ballots were fraudulent. She was more likely doing this for herself, not for Joe Biden. That's a long way to go to get to 10,000. Keep updating me on actual indictments.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on June 16, 2022, 05:57:18 PM
...Thank you, you've found one person who inappropriately collected ballots. You have 4 inappropriately collected ballots for a primary from someone on the ballot. No allegations the ballots were fraudulent. She was more likely doing this for herself, not for Joe Biden. That's a long way to go to get to 10,000. Keep updating me on actual indictments.

No, There have been many, but I just did your work for you on one to prove myself and show you for what you are. Did you want to explain how the feds stepped in upon finding illegal ballots and finding fingerprints on them, then, on the next day, all these Mules started wearing blue gloves to protect against leaving fingerprints? You'd think some of the Mules (far more than the 2,000 confirmed by their cellphone tracking) would have used some yellow ones or pink ones. Perhaps they were all bought by the same perp who identified with blue?

What has been done is to prove the crimes were done and directed by Party workers (some who also plead guilty), The work put in to research the documentary showed that these votes scams, by themselves, had the numbers to alter the elections.

That, of course, is without the Dominion Voting Machine input. Dominion filed lawsuits against anyone who implied they didn't walk on water. I wonder if all those targets, Like Mike Lindell, will now counter-sue since the ICSA put out official warnings that Dominion can be hacked. Sending the data to be counted in Spain should have been a big enough warning.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Wayward Son on June 16, 2022, 06:43:16 PM
Quote
Did you want to explain how the feds stepped in upon finding illegal ballots and finding fingerprints on them, then, on the next day, all these Mules started wearing blue gloves to protect against leaving fingerprints?

Quote
THE FACTS: (https://apnews.com/article/2022-midterm-elections-covid-technology-health-arizona-e1b49d2311bf900f44fa5c6dac406762) This is pure speculation. It ignores far more likely reasons for glove-wearing in the fall and winter of 2020 — cold weather or COVID-19.

True the Vote’s researcher claimed in the movie that voters in Georgia started wearing gloves to prevent their fingerprints from touching ballot envelopes after two women in Yuma, Arizona, were indicted on Dec. 23, 2020 for alleged ballot harvesting in that state’s primary election. But the Arizona indictment didn’t mention anything about fingerprints.

Voting in Georgia’s Jan. 5, 2021, Senate runoff election occurred during some of the coldest weeks of the year in the state, and when COVID-19 was surging.

In fact, the AP in 2020 documented multiple examples of COVID-cautious voters wearing latex gloves and other personal protective equipment to vote.

In a similarly speculative allegation, the film claims its supposed “mules” took photographs of ballots before they dropped them into drop boxes in order to get paid. But across the U.S., voters frequently take photos of their ballot envelopes before submitting them.
(Emphasis mine.)

I know...the gloves all had the same color.  But was that conspiracy, coincidence, or film editing? ;)
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Tom on June 16, 2022, 06:51:04 PM
Quote
There have been many, but I just did your work for you on one to prove myself...
How many? I ask because I can find a grand total of three -- and that's only if you generously grant to the film every single instance of a dropbox being used to improperly file ballots on behalf of another person. The overwhelming majority of Google hits return the individual you named; they're literally the first result, meaning that you didn't have to do all that much work.

Is three "many," or is there another keyword I should be using to try to find even more actual criminal investigations?
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: yossarian22c on June 17, 2022, 08:59:33 AM
...Thank you, you've found one person who inappropriately collected ballots. You have 4 inappropriately collected ballots for a primary from someone on the ballot. No allegations the ballots were fraudulent. She was more likely doing this for herself, not for Joe Biden. That's a long way to go to get to 10,000. Keep updating me on actual indictments.

No, There have been many, but I just did your work for you on one to prove myself and show you for what you are.
...

Quote
Guillermina Fuentes, 66, and a second woman were indicted in December 2020 on one count of ballot abuse,

But looking closer you actually didn't show anything true about your 2000 mules claim that people are being indicted from their data. The women were indicted in December 2020. So hard to claim 2000 mules had anything to do with their arrest. And if you look back at what I've written about election fraud in the past this is exactly the type of race it happens, small local elections that can be decided by a couple dozen votes. Her motivation was most likely cheating for herself. Also the indictment was only about the primary. So you still haven't found a democratic vote harvester for the general election. One Republican got caught in Pennsylvania.

So I'll ask again who has been indicted and arrested as a result of 2000 mules?
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: TheDrake on July 22, 2022, 04:18:34 PM
Quote
Bannon’s lawyer, David Schoen, called the conviction “a foregone conclusion” based on pre-trial rulings, but said he would file a “bulletproof” appeal. “You’ll see this case reversed,” he predicted.

What is it with these guys? Did they somehow take an oath to never accept reality? Bannon loses again. Which means Trump loses, because Bannon has lots of information to trade if he so chooses.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on July 23, 2022, 09:09:26 PM
Earlier I posted a pretty unarguable statement: "It is generally known by the majority of the people what has happened here. Trump was railroaded by Hillary and the Democrats, including the left-leaning Democrat apologists here in this forum. By any honest person, one cannot deny that the Russian collusion was made up out of whole cloth by Hillary and her people, and then abetted by the Clinton-aligned staff in the top floors of Justice. There is no longer any argument of that. The plan is how to outlast the guilt - not to plead innocence.

Hillary's people, including the judge in Sussman's case, want to believe that Sussman was not working on Hillary's behalf for claiming a non-existent Trump link to Alfabank, which he then billed for. Then they want to claim that Sussman did not get the go-ahead by Hillary to do so, even though we have the testimony from her own chief of staff that she did so. Weasels will waffle and say it was an innocent mistake that lasted two-and-a-half years and cost the country millions of dollars, several unsubstantiated impeachments, and systematic blocking of everything Trump was trying to accomplish. This has been called, by the best historians (not just the Clinton apologists) as the single worst example of political malfeasance, and failed coup d'etat, in the history of the country - yet it is still being defended in this forum.

Where are the heartfelt apologies?"

Instead of being answered or refuted, I was attacked. Has anyone here ever admitted they do believe Hillary did do dirty deeds and Trump was innocent? Just wondering?
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on July 23, 2022, 09:32:34 PM
BTW: Newsmax did a timeline presentation on Trump after his rally, when he was in his office watching the coverage of the protest. They had the channel he was watching and noted that he was watching a view of the march that showed no violence or storming of the Capital. That was the time that the J6 Committee was clamoring that Trump should have decried the violence (which was not reported on what he was watching) and made more statements for the rioters to stand down. How could this have been handled, had there been anyone on that Committee actually looking for truth?
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Tom on July 23, 2022, 09:33:15 PM
I think that "inarguable" summary is almost entirely false, personally.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: yossarian22c on July 23, 2022, 09:55:03 PM
Wm, can you name one of these “best historians“ and what qualifies them as best.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on July 23, 2022, 11:02:35 PM
Wm, can you name one of these “best historians“ and what qualifies them as best.

I recognize them as they come up in my research. Some, like Rodney Stark or Dr. Burton W. Folsom appear many times and authenticate their observations well. I discount many so-called historians who write "puff-pieces" for hysterical politicians who want a certain conclusion that suits their imaginings. I treat so-called scientific authors the same way. Many, often quoted by some politicians are charlatans, poseurs who are mere bureaucrats who pretend to be scientists. For instance, I've read many papers on climatology, and have never found a real scientist who doesn't start off by stating we are currently in an Ice Age, during a warming interval which is way overdue to return to cooling. How many professional educators have you met who admitted there was no "Dark Ages?" ...or that the Church did not prevent Columbus from his desire to circumnavigate the globe because the world was flat? There are many charlatans out there, and even the ability for students to recognize them has been removed from basic curricula.

How many know Margaret Sanger, the founder of Planned Parenthood, wrote: "Modern studies indicate that insanity, epilepsy, criminality, prostitution, pauperism, and mental defect, are all organically bound up together and that the least intelligent and the thoroughly degenerate classes in every community are the most prolific. Feeble-mindedness in one generation becomes pauperism or insanity in the next. There is every indication that feeble-mindedness in its protean forms is on the increase, that it has leaped the barriers, and that there is truly, as some of the scientific eugenicists have pointed out, a feeble-minded peril to future generations - unless the feeble-minded are prevented from reproducing their kind. To meet this emergency is the immediate and peremptory duty of every State and of all communities." (From her book, "The Pivot of Civilization.") Her plan to abort such miscreants as a means to control the "unwanted" is rarely mentioned today, is it? With everything shaded to meet political ends, it is important to study and research those whoonly pretend to be credible.

IOW: Any person's expert must be vetted. There are good ones well-worth looking at and reading. Everyone should do the required work to know who is good and who is not. This is one reason I always request those I converse with make the effort to not take my expert's testimony blindly - but to find their own sources they can really on - but not to take disinformation without proper study.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: yossarian22c on July 25, 2022, 09:24:50 AM
Wm, can you name one of these “best historians“ and what qualifies them as best.

I recognize them as they come up in my research. Some, like Rodney Stark or Dr. Burton W. Folsom appear many times and authenticate their observations well. I discount many so-called historians who write "puff-pieces" for hysterical politicians who want a certain conclusion that suits their imaginings.
...

So you have a sociologist and a historian who moonlights as a ideological economist. Folsom's work doesn't bring to light new historical details, he just writes the story from the point of view that capitalism is the ultimate good and government is always wrong.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: yossarian22c on July 25, 2022, 09:49:57 AM
...
 For instance, I've read many papers on climatology, and have never found a real scientist who doesn't start off by stating we are currently in an Ice Age, during a warming interval which is way overdue to return to cooling.

All climate scientists know that the Earth's landmasses are arranged to provide cooler temperatures. Antarctica frozen over at the south pole cools the planet significantly. The America's, Europe, Asia, and Greenland do a lot to trap cold water and ice in the Artic ocean which also cools the planet, ice reflects heat. Water absorbs heat. This isn't some kind of novel unknown concept by climate scientists, so none of them state it at the beginning of every paper that is studying some other aspect of climate, and it is already built into their models for the climate.

I suppose I'll ask again here. What models are they using to predict a return to cooling? When are they predicting the cooling return? Because the last decade of significant heat matches up well with the IPCC models of the climate that predict warming.

Quote
How many professional educators have you met who admitted there was no "Dark Ages?" ...or that the Church did not prevent Columbus from his desire to circumnavigate the globe because the world was flat?
...

For the lack of a Dark Ages, pretty much every professional historian I have talked to or heard speak about the subject. As to the second, I learned a long time ago that Columbus just sucked at math. The reason he had trouble getting support for his expedition was that people had good estimates of the circumference of the Earth and knew he would never make it to China before starving. He got lucky there was a land mass in between or they would have all died. I'm sure some people still get confused about the Church's denial of Heliocentrism and a flat Earth. But I don't know of any professional historians who would confuse the two.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on July 25, 2022, 10:40:29 PM
...
I'm sure some people still get confused about the Church's denial of Heliocentrism and a flat Earth. But I don't know of any professional historians who would confuse the two.

Actually you confuse me, too. Heliocentrism is usually compared against geocentrism - not a flat earth. All in all, it was the Church that sought out the science. It was the church that decreed the earth revolves around the sun, not placing the Earth at the center.

The issue with talking about "The Dark Ages" is not about history - but about politicians trying to denigrate their opponents.

Stark wrote:
Quote
...The entire "Dark ages" is a crock. Christianity actually inspired science. There was no science in ancient Greece or Rome. Aristotle thought the weight of objects were proportional to the speed with which they dropped. A simple test by dropping two different weights off a cliff never occurred to him. Guesswork without empiricism is not science. It was only at the birth of Christianity, that a wise God appeared who fostered the idea that science could be done and should be done. The Church understood there was a duty to understand God's handiwork, the better to marvel at it. ...The phrase, "Dark Ages," was a myth, first used in the early 19th century by atheists to claim credit for a sudden "enlightenment" that occurred against the Church's wishes.

My personal thoughts about these points of disinformation is that they are part of a dumbing-down of our educational system. John Dewey admitted that in his books, which are available for free on Gutenberg.org, that he wanted to create a system where students  would be good little government lemmings. Read his words. Don't accept my interpretations.

That also leads into the strategy created by Marx and Engels to counter Free Enterprise. They coined the phrase "Capitalism: as a pejorative and expected the strategy of "Immiseration" to end it in failure. That strategy failed because Free Enterprise lifts up all quintiles and no lesser groups were going to hate those on a higher quintile for "stealing" from them. The secondary strategy of "gloabal immiseration" fails also.

However wrong-headed these strategies are, they are the Democrat standard today.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Tom on July 26, 2022, 12:57:14 AM
Quote
Don't accept my interpretations.
For once, I agree with William. Don't accept his interpretations.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: jc44 on July 26, 2022, 06:40:28 AM
Actually you confuse me, too. Heliocentrism is usually compared against geocentrism - not a flat earth. All in all, it was the Church that sought out the science. It was the church that decreed the earth revolves around the sun, not placing the Earth at the center.
Could you give me sources and dates on that?

Wikipedias article on Copernicus states:
Quote
In March 1616, in connection with the Galileo affair, the Roman Catholic Church's Congregation of the Index issued a decree suspending De revolutionibus until it could be "corrected," on the grounds of ensuring that Copernicanism, which it described as a "false Pythagorean doctrine, altogether contrary to the Holy Scripture," would not "creep any further to the prejudice of Catholic truth."
with a note that this prohibition was finally removed in 1835.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: yossarian22c on July 26, 2022, 09:29:09 AM
...
I'm sure some people still get confused about the Church's denial of Heliocentrism and a flat Earth. But I don't know of any professional historians who would confuse the two.

Actually you confuse me, too. Heliocentrism is usually compared against geocentrism - not a flat earth. All in all, it was the Church that sought out the science. It was the church that decreed the earth revolves around the sun, not placing the Earth at the center.

I'm saying what the person who quit learning history in elementary school might confuse in their memories of Columbus, flat earth, and the church's stance on Heliocentrism. No one educated in history, particularly scientific history, confuses any of those concepts. So I was trying to understand/explain how you thought people were ascribing a flat earth attitude to the church at the time of Columbus. And there probably are a few people who believe something like that, but they are people who quit learning in the 5th grade.

The church almost executed Galileo for advocating for the Heliocentric model of the solar system. Hard to give them credit for that advance in science.

Galileo and Descartes are the originators of the modern scientific method. Both came from a Christian society. Descartes claimed to be divinely inspired. But neither was an agent of the church.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Fenring on July 26, 2022, 12:44:47 PM
Actually you confuse me, too. Heliocentrism is usually compared against geocentrism - not a flat earth. All in all, it was the Church that sought out the science. It was the church that decreed the earth revolves around the sun, not placing the Earth at the center.

I believe he was saying that most laymen are ignorant enough about the history of science that they would confuse the Church's slow move away from heliocentrism with it advocating for a flat Earth. As you may know, many people in the last 50 years have been taught in school that in Columbus' time everyone thought the Earth was flat (which is flatly incorrect).
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Fenring on July 26, 2022, 01:05:57 PM
The church almost executed Galileo for advocating for the Heliocentric model of the solar system. Hard to give them credit for that advance in science.

This isn't really an accurate way of describing it. The Galileo situation is typically misunderstood when people trot it out. There are two things he was in trouble for, one of which (arguably the main thing) was insulting the Pope in his book on two new sciences. He asked for permission to write it, they gave him constraints, and he twisted their constraints on purpose in a way that was basically giving them the finger. I can give you more detail if you like, but the long and short of it was they said it was ok for him to present his new theory so long as he didn't present it as uncontested fact, and showed the current theory alongside it. Instead of doing that he presented the 'alternate viewpoint' as an idiot named Simplicio, who was a stand-in for the Pope, and only said ridiculous things. That's kind of funny, but you have to keep in mind what kind of 'publisher' the Church was at the time (a very cautious one). The other problem was he wanted to trumpet his theory too quickly as fact rather than waiting for others to eventually vet his conclusions. This bears some similarity to the situation for Giordano Bruno, and in terms of the reasons they were in trouble largely having to do with things other than their science (e.g. their behavior, their disobedience, etc).

The main thing to keep in mind is there's a difference between resistance to change and refusal to change. The Church's tendency is and was to be very slow to accept modifications to its received worldview, and did not want any old crackpot teaching people all kinds of stuff as fact which hadn't yet had a chance to (slowly) make its rounds about the community in a satisfactory manner. This process could potentially take decades or centuries, and this slow-moving change is a bug and a feature depending on how you look at it, but overall is probably more of a feature. It becomes more of a bug when it's slow to change terrible, destructive goings-on in the present tense. It's a very modern conceit to think that a guy has a new scientific model, and they're oppressing him when they don't immediately allow him to begin teaching it as fact. But think of a comparison to, say, a medical guild or association, which doesn't allow new medications or techniques being used until they've gone through testing and been vetted. This is done to protect people, and to protect the reputation of all doctors in the association. Contrast with the proliferation of 'quack doctors' in the early 20th century, where you could not innately trust a doctor to use accredited techniques. So on its face this is reasonable, but what a contemporary person isn't primed to understand is that in the past this vetting process was much slower than such processes are today. But they did have half-way houses for such theory, and it was typically not banned outright. For instance, the Copernican theory was not exactly banned as such, but it was required that it be portrayed as a mathematical model rather than as a physical reality. And good thing too, since it was an inaccurate representation of the solar system.

Quote
Galileo and Descartes are the originators of the modern scientific method.

This is the first time I've heard this claim, actually. I've heard it ascribed to Francis Bacon, to various enlightenment people. What did Galileo do that was so revolutionary? I mean, he did invent a tool enabling telescope-based astronomy, improving the field of naked eye astronomy greatly, but there was already astronomy as such. I'm more versed in Descartes' philosophical work than any field work he may have done in science, so I can't be as sure with him, but I don't have any recollection in reading history and philosophy of science books that he's given some special status.

Quote
Both came from a Christian society. Descartes claimed to be divinely inspired. But neither was an agent of the church.

I think you're correct in disputing a blithe that anything any scientist said in the past was "the Church" saying it. However it's a complex subject, since you'd have to understand how the vetting process worked for not only doctrine but also issues related to doctrine but subject to potential changes. It's not really accurate either, though, to say that people who lived under the Church weren't agents of it; that would be to incorrectly separate out their faith life from their work life, which is a fairly recent concept. This is especially so since "the Church" can mean the administrative and ecclesiastical authority in the Church, but also just refers to all the people in it. It's not a monolithic voice, even though the authorities did reserve the right to limit what could be taught as facts.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: yossarian22c on July 26, 2022, 01:36:16 PM

Quote
Galileo and Descartes are the originators of the modern scientific method.

This is the first time I've heard this claim, actually. I've heard it ascribed to Francis Bacon, to various enlightenment people. What did Galileo do that was so revolutionary? I mean, he did invent a tool enabling telescope-based astronomy, improving the field of naked eye astronomy greatly, but there was already astronomy as such. I'm more versed in Descartes' philosophical work than any field work he may have done in science, so I can't be as sure with him, but I don't have any recollection in reading history and philosophy of science books that he's given some special status.

Galileo studied pendulum's leading to the development of the pendulum clock and did research with inclined planes that showed that the distance an object fell was proportional to time squared and didn't depend on the mass of the object. These are some of the first important experiments of the scientific revolution. He did other interesting things too in engineering and pre-Newtonian physics that weren't just Astronomy.

Apparently we've read different sources about the origin of the scientific method. But someone has read both. A brief description and comparison of the ideas around science of Descartes and Bacon.

Quote
The differences between the methods of Descartes and Bacon are many and deep, but there are also many things they have in common. Each of these pioneers advocated the complete overthrow of all the methods and most of the results of the authorities that came before them. Both of these men demanded a new standard of precision, since there were so many examples of sloppy reasoning and observation that littered the path of the science of the past. There was also a common commitment to doubt in general and a concern about the "deceptions of the senses" (3, p. 474). In addition, they believed in the reduction of problems to their smallest constituent parts as a general principle. Descartes and Bacon each saw himself primarily in the role of an advocate for science and therefore they contributed very little to any particular field of empirical science (5). Finally, both of these men were uniquely gifted to promote the particular aspects of science that were eventually crucial to its advance.

http://www.thingsrevealed.net/dscrtbacn.htm (http://www.thingsrevealed.net/dscrtbacn.htm)

So it would seem they both contributed to the movement. Descartes did little practical work in Science but his work in mathematics combining Algebra and Geometry probably led to the creation of Calculus. I see Newton as an heir to both Galileo's experiments and Descartes reasoning. But with most things in human history too strongly crediting any one person will miss the society and others who were advocating along similar lines. I'll remember to include Bacon in the future when thinking of the origins of the scientific method.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Fenring on July 26, 2022, 01:41:06 PM
Galileo studied pendulum's leading to the development of the pendulum clock and did research with inclined planes that showed that the distance an object fell was proportional to time squared and didn't depend on the mass of the object. These are some of the first important experiments of the scientific revolution. He did other interesting things too in engineering and pre-Newtonian physics that weren't just Astronomy.

I know Galileo did other stuff, but he wasn't the only one doing mechanics and astronomy. I guess my point was that he uniquely invented the technology to revolutionize astronomy, so I count that as a big win in practical science. But I never saw him particularly as an originator of experimental methods. I'll keep in mind to check up on this next time I'm spelunking through the history.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on July 26, 2022, 04:32:50 PM
[quote author=yossarian22c link=topic=1143.msg62791#msg62791 date=1658856...I know Galileo did other stuff, but he wasn't the only one doing mechanics and astronomy. I guess my point was that he uniquely invented the technology to revolutionize astronomy, so I count that as a big win in practical science. But I never saw him particularly as an originator of experimental methods. I'll keep in mind to check up on this next time I'm spelunking through the history.

Getting back to the thread about the many Trump successes compared to the Biden failures - This week we can focus on the many actions against Huawei Technologies under Trump, and how the Biden decisions to earn his graft from China to allow their espionage is another on-going Biden in-your-face failure. Since Biden was paid for his China actions, this may well be treason:

https://republicbrief.com/shocking-fbi-probe-finds-us-nukes-compromised-by-china-trump-warned-about-this/

Mike Pompeo said: "FBI investigations confirm what we knew in Trump Admin: the CCP uses Huawei equipment to conduct espionage, even disrupt essential national security operations."

Let's all go look at the MSM's revelation of all the national securit threats created from this. It should be everywhere, neh?
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on July 26, 2022, 05:01:27 PM
...The main thing to keep in mind is there's a difference between resistance to change and refusal to change. The Church's tendency is and was to be very slow to accept modifications to its received worldview, and did not want any old crackpot teaching people all kinds of stuff as fact which hadn't yet had a chance to (slowly) make its rounds about the community in a satisfactory manner.

That is directly contrary to fact. It was the Church with a Capital "C" which sponsored science, and ushered new thinking and technology to come into being. Christianity actually inspired science. It was only at the birth of Christianity, that a wise God appeared who fostered the idea that science could be done and should be done. The Church understood there was a duty to understand God's handiwork, the better to marvel at it.

Any slowness of acceptance to new science was bureaucratic and political inertia. And what disinformation against the Church we read about today usually stems from the Atheist efforts in the  early 1800's. As a real world example, look at the Crusades. Think about "The Hammer", Charles Martel. At the time of the Umayyad invasion of Aquitaine at the Battle of Tours, he was outnumbered and facing what was considered the greatest army of horse soldiers in the world. However; Martel had the scientific inventions of the Church behind him, and the new innovations of stirrups and reins allowed his forces to demolish the Umayyad Caliphate.

Acceptance of change is immediate. There are many who try to push the idea that new thinking takes forever and a day to sink in. Actually, we learn and use what we learn at once.

When Trump regains the Presidency - anticipate the corrections after Biden's failure to be far quicker than the media allows will happen. Just think about what Biden's firing of the Immigration Judges that Trump appointed means to the Never-Trumpers who do not deserve their platforms to delimit Trump for a second time. Biden and his handlers have unwisely given any future regimes plenty of precedents to unpoliticize bureaucracy.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Wayward Son on July 26, 2022, 05:57:27 PM
Quote
This week we can focus on the many actions against Huawei Technologies under Trump, and how the Biden decisions to earn his graft from China to allow their espionage is another on-going Biden in-your-face failure. Since Biden was paid for his China actions, this may well be treason:

https://republicbrief.com/shocking-fbi-probe-finds-us-nukes-compromised-by-china-trump-warned-about-this/

Mike Pompeo said: "FBI investigations confirm what we knew in Trump Admin: the CCP uses Huawei equipment to conduct espionage, even disrupt essential national security operations."

Let's all go look at the MSM's revelation of all the national security threats created from this. It should be everywhere, neh?

Blah, blah, blah.  You do realize that Pompeo was quoting a CNN report on Huawei equipment, right?  If it weren't for CNN, you wouldn't even know about this! :D

Which also means that the security threat is mainly Pompeo's opinion, at this time.

Which doesn't mean it may not be a concern, but you're expecting responsible news sources to jump to conclusions like you're fly-by-night sources (such as the opinion article you linked to).

And so far I haven't found any direct link between Biden and Huawei, except for a Chinese investment firm that has some stock in Huawei that Hunter Biden has some money in.  So where is the "graft" coming from?

You're trying to make a mountain out of a molehill.  Find more dirt first. :D
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Wayward Son on July 26, 2022, 06:34:58 PM
And speaking of opinion pieces, the editors of The New York Post, one of the most conservative papers in the U.S. today, had this to say in an editorial last week (https://nypost.com/2022/07/22/trumps-jan-6-silence-renders-him-unworthy-for-2024-reelection/):

Quote
There has been much debate over whether Trump’s rally speech on Jan. 6, 2021, constituted “incitement.” That’s somewhat of a red herring. What matters more — and has become crystal clear in recent days — is that Trump didn’t lift a finger to stop the violence that followed.

And he was the only person who could stop what was happening. He was the only one the crowd was listening to. It was incitement by silence.

Trump only wanted one thing during that infamous afternoon: to pressure Vice President Mike Pence to decertify the election of Joe Biden.

He thought the violence of his loyal followers would make Pence crack, or delay the vote altogether.

To his eternal shame, as appalled aides implored him to publicly call on his followers to go home, he instead further fanned the flames by tweeting: “Mike Pence didn’t have the courage to do what should have been done to protect our Country and our Constitution.”

His only focus was to find any means — damn the consequences — to block the peaceful transfer of power.

There is no other explanation, just as there is no defense, for his refusal to stop the violence.

It’s up to the Justice Department to decide if this is a crime. But as a matter of principle, as a matter of character, Trump has proven himself unworthy to be this country’s chief executive again.

This is the editorial board of The New York Post.

This week it was the Wall Street Journal's turn. (https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-president-who-stood-still-donald-trump-jan-6-committee-mike-pence-capitol-riot-11658528548)

Quote
No matter your views of the Jan. 6 special committee, the facts it is laying out in hearings are sobering. The most horrifying to date came Thursday in a hearing on President Trump's conduct as the riot raged and he sat watching TV, posting inflammatory tweets and refusing to send help... Mr. Trump took an oath to defend the Constitution, and he had a duty as Commander in Chief to protect the Capitol from a mob attacking it in his name. He refused. He didn't call the military to send help. He didn't call [Mike] ]Pence to check on the safety of his loyal VP. Instead he fed the mob's anger and let the riot play out.
(Per Electoral-Vote.com (https://electoral-vote.com/#item-1), since I don't have a subscription, either. :) )

When two of the most influential conservative newspapers in the country--both of whom endorsed Trump in the last election, IIRC--now say (or imply) he is unfit for office, that definitely counts as a loss.

I guess the Jan. 6 Commission has had some effect.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on July 26, 2022, 06:42:41 PM
It is those deep state Murdoch's who are out to get Trump.  They are not real newspapers. Trump hardly knows them.  All part of the Gates/Soros deep state plot.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on July 26, 2022, 07:21:03 PM
Quote
This week we can focus on the many actions against Huawei Technologies under Trump, and how the Biden decisions to earn his graft from China to allow their espionage is another on-going Biden in-your-face failure. Since Biden was paid for his China actions, this may well be treason:

https://republicbrief.com/shocking-fbi-probe-finds-us-nukes-compromised-by-china-trump-warned-about-this/...You do realize that Pompeo was quoting a CNN report on Huawei equipment, right?  If it weren't for CNN, you wouldn't even know about this!

What have you been looking at? According to Peter Schweitzer at the NY Post: "The Bidens received some $31 million from Chinese Businessmen linked to the highest level of Chinese intelligence."

$20 million from Che Feng. $5 million from Ye Jianming, $188,617 from Li Ming. $5 million from Henry Zhao., $1 million from Patrick Ho.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on July 26, 2022, 07:26:45 PM
BTW, do YOU realize the link you poste exxonerates Trump and calls the FBI dirty? Here's a pullquote:
Quote
...As the FBI concluded its Russia investigation, specifically into former president Donald Trump, you can find an electronic document that spells out just how wide a net it gave its agents to find evidence relevant to a crime committed by a president.

As a result, this leeway was largely attributed to Igor Danchenko, the Russian-born US resident, who played a key role in the development of Christopher Steele’s dossier in the 2016 election season. Steele’s London-based research project, now widely viewed as a hoax, was funded by Democrats. It was used for months by the anti-Trump forces under the direction of Rep. Adam Schiff of California, in order to sabotage, harass, and disorient the presidential administration.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Wayward Son on July 26, 2022, 07:42:45 PM
BTW, do YOU realize the link you poste exxonerates Trump and calls the FBI dirty? Here's a pullquote:
Quote
...As the FBI concluded its Russia investigation, specifically into former president Donald Trump, you can find an electronic document that spells out just how wide a net it gave its agents to find evidence relevant to a crime committed by a president.

As a result, this leeway was largely attributed to Igor Danchenko, the Russian-born US resident, who played a key role in the development of Christopher Steele’s dossier in the 2016 election season. Steele’s London-based research project, now widely viewed as a hoax, was funded by Democrats. It was used for months by the anti-Trump forces under the direction of Rep. Adam Schiff of California, in order to sabotage, harass, and disorient the presidential administration.

Uh, who's post?  ???
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: TheDrake on July 27, 2022, 01:54:48 PM
BTW, do YOU realize the link you poste exxonerates Trump and calls the FBI dirty? Here's a pullquote:
Quote
...As the FBI concluded its Russia investigation, specifically into former president Donald Trump, you can find an electronic document that spells out just how wide a net it gave its agents to find evidence relevant to a crime committed by a president.

As a result, this leeway was largely attributed to Igor Danchenko, the Russian-born US resident, who played a key role in the development of Christopher Steele’s dossier in the 2016 election season. Steele’s London-based research project, now widely viewed as a hoax, was funded by Democrats. It was used for months by the anti-Trump forces under the direction of Rep. Adam Schiff of California, in order to sabotage, harass, and disorient the presidential administration.

Nobody but you quotes republic brief, and the article that you're quoting from is a different one than the one you referenced about Huawei.

Btw, Pelosi also urged us allies to avoid Huawei. https://www.cnbc.com/2020/02/14/pelosi-warns-us-allies-dont-go-near-huawei.html

Chuck Schumer criticised Trump not for cutting them off, but for backing down. https://twitter.com/senschumer/status/1144941425047592960

On March 3, 2020: these were the bipartisan authors of a letter asking the UK to reconsider Huawei.

Quote
Senators Schumer and Sasse were joined by Senators Richard Burr (R-NC), John Thune (R-SD), Mark Warner (D-VA), Kirsten Gillibrand (D-NY), Chris Coons (D-DE), Jerry Moran (R-KS), Marco Rubio (R-FL), Richard Blumenthal (D-CT), Ted Cruz (R-TX),  Ed Markey (D-MA), Thom Tillis (R-NC), Chris Van Hollen (D-MD), Todd Young (R-IN), Marsha Blackburn (R-TN), Mitt Romney (R-UT), Josh Hawley (R-MO), Tom Cotton (R-AR), and Rick Scott (R-FL).

The problem, if there was one, was Trump threatening security alliances over it when this would massively have inflated the cost of 5G rollout in Europe.

I doubt you can find a single politician during Trump's four years that said Huawei was NOT a national security problem. Fabricating a partisan issue out of this when it is so easy to disprove makes it pretty clear that your much touted "research" consists of blindly regurgitating questionable sources.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on July 27, 2022, 03:11:20 PM
The FBI’s reported conclusion was that Chinese telecommunications company Huawei placed equipment on American soil capable of disrupting military communications overseeing U.S. nuclear weapons. Biden is into China for over $31 million in graft.

Stop rationalizing for him and play it straight.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: yossarian22c on July 27, 2022, 03:54:08 PM
The FBI’s reported conclusion was that Chinese telecommunications company Huawei placed equipment on American soil capable of disrupting military communications overseeing U.S. nuclear weapons. Biden is into China for over $31 million in graft.

Stop rationalizing for him and play it straight.

No one is defending Huawei. We just don't see anything Biden did to help them.
https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-59262329 (https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-59262329)

Quote
US President Joe Biden has signed legislation that stops companies judged to be a security threat from receiving new telecoms equipment licences.

The Secure Equipment Act says the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) should no longer review applications from companies ruled a threat.

It means equipment from Huawei, ZTE and three other Chinese companies cannot be used in US telecoms networks.

Democrat and Republican senators all approved the bill.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Tom on July 27, 2022, 04:15:20 PM
One should also view that $31 million claim with a reasonably sizable grain of salt. :)
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on July 28, 2022, 12:27:57 PM
No election fraud in WI

https://www.yahoo.com/news/judge-wisconsin-probe-found-absolutely-161220624.html
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: TheDrake on July 28, 2022, 03:55:25 PM
Quote
“This whole case has been about trying to shine a light on government," Bailey-Rihn said. What it revealed, she said, was that in the early days of Gableman's probe, he was being paid $11,000 a month by taxpayers "to sit in the New Berlin library to learn about election law because he knows nothing about election law.”

I thought the Republicans like to say they're the fiscally responsible party.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: yossarian22c on August 01, 2022, 03:40:03 PM
Quote
But there are signs that Trump's once-ironclad grip is beginning to loosen. Having lost reelection by millions of votes, and under pressure from multiple investigations, including the Justice Department's probe of his role in the Jan. 6 insurrection, focus groups and surveys (more on the data below) are starting to show that rank-and-file Republican voters are starting to see Trump as a liability.

Even editorial boards once friendly to Trump, like the Rupert Murdoch-owned New York Post and Wall Street Journal have in the last week called him "unworthy" to be president again, citing his "character" and conduct on Jan. 6.

Trump is losing his appeal to some Republicans. About time.

Quote
More Republicans saying they don't want Trump to be the nominee: 55% of Republicans in a recent CNN poll said they don't want Trump to be their standard-bearer in 2024, up from 49% in February. Similarly, Reuters/Ipsos found a third of Republicans said Trump should not run again, up from a quarter before the Jan. 6 hearings.

Only question is if that 55% can agree on someone to beat him in the primary.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 01, 2022, 08:34:39 PM
In MO Trump has endorsed Eric for Senator.  He did not say which Eric since both Republicans in the primary are named Eric. What  a way to endorse everyone so that when one wins he can claim it was his endorsement that put them over the top.

When it comes to the hard choices, Trump does not make a decision.   He waffles.  Must be tired of backing losers, since the winner of this primary is likely to be elected in the general. At least Trump can point to one Senate race where he backed a winner. Of course it was a foregone conclusion which Party would win.  Unlike Walker in GA and Oz in PA.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 02, 2022, 07:41:41 PM
Who knew that trying to have your followers overthrow the Government is not with in the bounds of Presidential Duty.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/judge-dismisses-trumps-immunity-claim-181511430.html

He keeps trotting out the same defenses and he keeps losing.  He has the be the losingest President of all time.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: TheDrake on August 02, 2022, 10:22:16 PM
Who knew that trying to have your followers overthrow the Government is not with in the bounds of Presidential Duty.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/judge-dismisses-trumps-immunity-claim-181511430.html

He keeps trotting out the same defenses and he keeps losing.  He has the be the losingest President of all time.

Well, Jefferson Davis who tried the same thing?
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on August 03, 2022, 09:22:01 PM
Who knew that trying to have your followers overthrow the Government is not with in the bounds of Presidential Duty.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/judge-dismisses-trumps-immunity-claim-181511430.html

He keeps trotting out the same defenses and he keeps losing.  He has the be the losingest President of all time.

Exactly the opposite. The news reports from the States running Primaries all proclaimed Trump support as winning the day for his choices. Here in Michigan, you should have seen all the Democrat sponsored hit-pieces aimed at Tudor Dixon after Trump endorsed her. They were completely unhinged in their attacks. But she won in a landslide. It seems no one believed any of the attack ads - which portends for the future. The Never-Trumpers are reeling - as well as the Dems

In a news story today, the Dems were trying to perfect new vote-scamming procedures in Michigan. They tried, but the Trump-endorsed candidates won in landslides. People's eyes are open. I doubt the Dems can cheat as well as they did in 2020.  The slanted news reports that say GOP are rallying against him are bogus.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 04, 2022, 07:36:49 AM
So which Eric did he endorse in MO? The one that won or the one that lost?  Let's see how the real elections turn out, not just the primaries.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 05, 2022, 08:43:03 AM
Dick Cheney says Trump is a threat to Democracy.  Waiting to hear the Trumpist call him a RINO.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on August 05, 2022, 12:25:11 PM
Dick Cheney says Trump is a threat to Democracy.  Waiting to hear the Trumpist call him a RINO.

He was shown on Fox News and Newsmax, in full. No edits or paraphrasing, and he said a whole lot of nothing. He and his daughter are Never-Trumpers. Both are tainted by personal ingratitude. Cheney is a Republican Neo-con. That is not in dispute. He and she made the decision to visibly denigrate Trump at every opportunity. More and more, they have been on the wrong side of issues. Monumentally, Liz sided with Dems and other Never-Trumpers to impeach him for issues that have since been proved to be in error. Downright lies, when what Trump had said was proved correct.

Dick Cheney is often castigated for proclaiming WMD in Iraq, Yes, there were WMDs which were documented there, and a massive Russian operation to hide them before the US buildup. He should have stated the case clearly, but instead, bent the knee to the WMD deniers to try to keep on the good side of a Leftists media that wanted to smear Bush 43. His legacy was shaken and calling attention to it made him a leper. Liz was good on most issues until she got the anti-Trump religion.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Wayward Son on August 05, 2022, 01:07:20 PM
Quote
Monumentally, Liz sided with Dems and other Never-Trumpers to impeach him for issues that have since been proved to be in error. Downright lies, when what Trump had said was proved correct.

I don't know how you can say that the impeachments have be "proved to be in error."

There is sworn testimony that the Ukrainian officials were told that they had to start an investigation on Biden to get a White House visit and their much-needed weapons.

And after all the Republican testimony to the Jan. 6th Commission, how can anyone state at this time that he absolutely did not try to incite an insurrection?  A march he planned and wanted to attend; that he knew had armed individuals; and did nothing to stop it once it turned into a riot that threatened the life of his own Vice-President?  This is what you consider to be proven to be in error??  ???

You live in your own little world, William.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on August 05, 2022, 07:17:58 PM
Quote
Monumentally, Liz sided with Dems and other Never-Trumpers to impeach him for issues that have since been proved to be in error. Downright lies, when what Trump had said was proved correct.

I don't know how you can say that the impeachments have be "proved to be in error."

There is sworn testimony that the Ukrainian officials were told that they had to start an investigation on Biden to get a White House visit and their much-needed weapons.

And after all the Republican testimony to the Jan. 6th Commission, how can anyone state at this time that he absolutely did not try to incite an insurrection?  A march he planned and wanted to attend; that he knew had armed individuals; and did nothing to stop it once it turned into a riot that threatened the life of his own Vice-President?  This is what you consider to be proven to be in error??  ???

You live in your own little world, William.

You really should watch other networks than CNN or MSNBC. Those testimonies were shown to be wrong. Trump talked about Hunter and Joe blackmailing the Ukraine, which was proved to be accurate. We all saw Joe bragging about doing it. We recently saw Joe bend over backwards to avoid offending those that gave his crime family so much illegal graft.

Everything you just quoted about what Trump knew and did alá J6 is moot. The J6 commission put on an embedded agent in the Proud Boys who said nobody was armed. It is Pelosi who is avoiding being investigated. She is responsible for her people murdering an unarmed woman, and for denying the offered military to support the half-strength Capital security. Trump was home watching the protest on a station that did not show the supposed break-ins nor any violence. That was confirmed - but the J6 presentation missed it.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Tom on August 05, 2022, 10:06:24 PM
It is honestly sad to see what right-wing propaganda has done to you.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Wayward Son on August 06, 2022, 12:18:41 PM
Quote
Monumentally, Liz sided with Dems and other Never-Trumpers to impeach him for issues that have since been proved to be in error. Downright lies, when what Trump had said was proved correct.

I don't know how you can say that the impeachments have be "proved to be in error."

There is sworn testimony that the Ukrainian officials were told that they had to start an investigation on Biden to get a White House visit and their much-needed weapons.

And after all the Republican testimony to the Jan. 6th Commission, how can anyone state at this time that he absolutely did not try to incite an insurrection?  A march he planned and wanted to attend; that he knew had armed individuals; and did nothing to stop it once it turned into a riot that threatened the life of his own Vice-President?  This is what you consider to be proven to be in error??  ???

You live in your own little world, William.

You really should watch other networks than CNN or MSNBC. Those testimonies were shown to be wrong.

Excuse me?  How can a testimony that said, "I told them this," can be shown to be wrong?  ???  How can you say the special ambassador appointed by Trump to represent him in Ukraine was lying?  Do you even know what you're talking about?

Quote
Trump talked about Hunter and Joe blackmailing the Ukraine, which was proved to be accurate. We all saw Joe bragging about doing it. We recently saw Joe bend over backwards to avoid offending those that gave his crime family so much illegal graft.[/quote[

So this justifies him withholding weapons needed to prevent Russia from invading?   ???

[quote[Everything you just quoted about what Trump knew and did alá J6 is moot. The J6 commission put on an embedded agent in the Proud Boys who said nobody was armed. It is Pelosi who is avoiding being investigated. She is responsible for her people murdering an unarmed woman, and for denying the offered military to support the half-strength Capital security. Trump was home watching the protest on a station that did not show the supposed break-ins nor any violence. That was confirmed - but the J6 presentation missed it.

Confirmed by whom?  When?  What about the testimony of those Republicans who were in the White House with him begging him to take action?  Was Trump also deaf at the time?  Or couldn't he even hear the Senators and Representatives he called during that time who might have mentioned they were evacuating?  Or Hannity telling him to call the mob off?

How much of the actual testimony have you heard yourself?  Or are you getting it filtered by others? ;)
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on August 06, 2022, 02:31:11 PM
...Confirmed by whom?  When?  What about the testimony of those Republicans who were in the White House with him begging him to take action?  Was Trump also deaf at the time?  Or couldn't he even hear the Senators and Representatives he called during that time who might have mentioned they were evacuating?  Or Hannity telling him to call the mob off?

How much of the actual testimony have you heard yourself?  Or are you getting it filtered by others? ;)

You miss much by only viewing the complicit media. I've seen the complicit media as well as legitimate news sources. What testimony which contradicts the Constitutional requirements embedded in the body of it, not just in the Amendments, do you think is worthy to believe? The J6 UnSelect Committee is a travesty and is embarrassing. Not for Trump - but for the people hanging on every inconsistency and lie put forward. Deflection is the name of the game. The vote-scamming is still what was important - not the scammers trying to deflect their scamming by calling everyone who sees through them deniers.

BYW, the time period where the J6 Committee stresses over is when Trump was in his room watching the protest as I noted. The other stuff came later - after he was apprised of possible violations (remember security did wave protesters into the Capital.) He told them to be legal and peaceful from the beginning. Did Pelosi tell her minions not to shoot unarmed women? The contrast is stark.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Tom on August 06, 2022, 09:57:56 PM
Just to be clear, here: you're saying that the Capitol Police are "Pelosi's minions?"
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on August 07, 2022, 11:23:52 PM
Just to be clear, here: you're saying that the Capitol Police are "Pelosi's minions?"

You are kidding, aren't you? You do know the chain of command at the Capital Building, don't you? You do know the Sargeant of Arms wanted to accept the offer of Trump to provide National Guard support, but Pelosi nixed it, even though the building security forces were at half-strength? Pelosi is the number one suspect for the incursion on Jan 6, but she rigged the J6 Committee so she will never need to testify and explain her decisions.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Tom on August 07, 2022, 11:46:15 PM
Do you think the Capitol Police would agree that they are in fact Pelosi's minions?

And I know I said that fact-checking you is exhausting, but I need to point out: 1) Pelosi is not in charge of Capitol security in any sense, or even anywhere in that particular chain of command, as the Speaker of the House hasn't served in that capacity for longer than we've been alive; 2)  there is no evidence that Trump ever made an offer of National Guard support, and the House Sergeant-at-Arms has specifically rebutted his claim to have done so; 3) the committee was "rigged" only in the sense that two specific individuals of interest in the investigation were not permitted to be on it.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on August 08, 2022, 04:01:02 PM
Actually you confuse me, too. Heliocentrism is usually compared against geocentrism - not a flat earth. All in all, it was the Church that sought out the science. It was the church that decreed the earth revolves around the sun, not placing the Earth at the center.
Could you give me sources and dates on that?

Rodney Stark wrote:
Quote
Every educated person of Columbus's time knew the earth was round. This includes Roman Catholic theologians. The Venerable Bede (ca. 673-735) taught that the Earth was round, as did Bishop Virgilius of Salzburg (ca. 720-784). Hildegard of Bingen (1098-1179), and Thomas Aquinas (1224-1274), and all four became Saints. It was part of an ages-old conspiracy of atheists to portray Religion as being anti-Science. Columbus was not argued out of sailing off the edge of the world. The scientist of his day knew the world was round - but much larger than Columbus estimated. He put Japan at being only 2,080 miles from the Canary Islands, but the "sundry wise men of Spain" knew it was over 14,000 miles. Had Columbus not run across an unsuspected continent - his crew would have all died at Sea.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: yossarian22c on August 08, 2022, 04:45:16 PM
Actually you confuse me, too. Heliocentrism is usually compared against geocentrism - not a flat earth. All in all, it was the Church that sought out the science. It was the church that decreed the earth revolves around the sun, not placing the Earth at the center.
Could you give me sources and dates on that?

The sources and dates request was about your claim of the church decreeing the Earth revolves around the sun. They were a couple hundred years at behind the scientific community on that one.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on August 08, 2022, 04:52:24 PM
As for Heliocentrism vs. Geocentrism, the Church erred trying to marry tested science with once-believed Biblical interpretations, which were later proved to be different. The whole issue meant well, to support science vs. non-science.

Guesswork without empiricism is not science. It was only at the birth of Christianity, that a wise God appeared who fostered the idea that science could be done and should be done. The Church understood there was a duty to understand God's handiwork, the better to marvel at it.

It was the Church that fostered science. Quintus Tertullian instructed in the second century, "Reason is a thing of God, inasmuch as there is nothing which God the Maker of all has not provided, disposed, ordained by reason — nothing which He has not willed should be handled and understood by reason." The success of the West, including the rise of science, rested entirely on religious foundations, and the people who brought it about were devout Christians.

In the early seventeenth century, Heliocentrism and geocentrism were open-ended untested science which confused some people who should have known better - to flex their bureaucratic muscles to proclaim what science was and was not. It wasn't until 1916 that Pope Pius V said geocentrism was not De Fide. Non-scientists had held opinions that were wrong and tried to win their arguments by what I have stated as "Laughter by Intimidation", just like some do in this forum. They said the church proclaims it so it must be so. Science continued to accelerate, and truth and reason won out, as it always should. I am not all that religious, myself, except to understand the role the Church had to nurture science. When things fell between the cracks, they festered for a while, but were corrected. Those who poke at the church or religion as holding back science are just mirroring the Andrew Dickson White's of the world.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Tom on August 08, 2022, 04:58:33 PM
For my part, I like to draw a distinction -- thar I find useful -- between religions as institutions and religious epistemologies. Many religions have historically encouraged some degree of scholarly epistemology alongside religious ones, and the two only occasionally come into conflict. When they do, it is not uncommon to see, as we saw the Mormons do in the '80s, the release of statements clarifying that the purpose of scholarship is to know and glorify God, and thus any scholarship which would repudiate dogma is invalid. This sort of reactionary tendency usually only lasts a generation until the new truths are incorporated (or at the very least retroactively justified.)
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Tom on August 08, 2022, 05:00:32 PM
Note, by the way, that I called out your errors above, and you summarily ignored them. This is SOP, and I expect you to again claim that Pelosi was in charge of the Capitol Police within three weeks.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: TheDrake on August 08, 2022, 07:03:15 PM
More on the Pelosi thing. Note that it was the GOP leadership that tried to paint Pelosi with this brush, and their sycophants lap it up.

https://apnews.com/article/fact-checking-235651652542

Meanwhile, did Mitch also refuse the National Guard, because he has Senate oversight of security. Neither of the two politicians has been involved in operational security decisions.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 08, 2022, 07:49:42 PM
Well Toddler Trump says the FBI has raided Mar-a-Lago.  I guess if Trump does not want his home searched maybe he should not keep secret records there.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-fbi-raid-mar-a-lago-investigation-232732108.html
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Crunch on August 09, 2022, 08:20:54 AM
The Biden FBI raiding the homes of political opponents that he may run against is not the win you think it is. Well, except in third world countries. 

This better be rock solid or you just turned Trump into a martyr with the perfect rallying cry.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 09, 2022, 08:22:50 AM
Trump will do that no matter what.  Are ex Presidents allowed to do anything they want since any investigation into any of their activities will be called political persecution? 
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Crunch on August 09, 2022, 08:26:01 AM
Trump will do that no matter what.  Are ex Presidents allowed to do anything they want since any investigation into any of their activities will be called political persecution?

Remember this when Trump or DeSantis take control and they use the fbi and irs in a similar manner. I mean, you’re really cool with that, right? I know I am. 
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 09, 2022, 08:28:58 AM
I mean the FBI Director was appointed by Trump, right? And there have been many findings that Trump might have committed a crime (like taking Gov documents that he is not allowed to have with him to Mar-a-Largo, right?  And Trump never had anyone investigate any family member of Biden's, like Hunter.

Trump loves to play the victim.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Tom on August 09, 2022, 08:29:22 AM
Crunch, would it still be improper to investigate a former president if he had no intention to run again, or had already served the maximum number of terms?
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 09, 2022, 09:06:45 AM
This could be like getting Al Capone on tax fraud instead of murder.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: NobleHunter on August 09, 2022, 09:22:21 AM
I wonder if they found a Trump judge to sign off on the warrant.

Has the GOP forgotten that the FBI probably cost Clinton the election? Or is this another one of their dual standards?
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Wayward Son on August 09, 2022, 10:27:41 AM
Well, it didn't take long for Trump to become a martyr to some.

Trump supporters are calling for civil war. (https://politicalwire.com/2022/08/09/trump-supporters-are-calling-for-civil-war/)

Quote
MAGA, QAnon, and far-right message boards and Telegram channels lit up Monday night with calls for a violent response to what some extremists see as a political attack directed by the Biden administration.

Quote
The posts on these pro-Trump forums tonight are as violent as I’ve seen them since before January 6th. Maybe even more so.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: yossarian22c on August 09, 2022, 11:56:51 AM
I wonder if they found a Trump judge to sign off on the warrant.

Has the GOP forgotten that the FBI probably cost Clinton the election? Or is this another one of their dual standards?

They forgot about that as soon as Trump turned on Comey. The man f-ing handed Trump the white house with his, "we're investigating new emails/nevermind same old stuff" press releases the weekend before the election.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 09, 2022, 01:46:04 PM
Another loss on his tax info.

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/house-committee-see-trump-tax-160328279.html

He will probably appeal to the SC since that has been his MO. We will see if the SC has any objectivity left.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 10, 2022, 09:12:10 AM
What a surprise.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/does-plead-fifth-mean-trumps-115925747.html

Now lets play all of the videos of Trump saying only the guilty need to take the 5th.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMyh7ko9L2g
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: yossarian22c on August 10, 2022, 02:20:48 PM
Along the same lines. All the Republicans are crying about the need for the justice department to release the warrant authorizing the search of Trump's place. Trump (his lawyers) have copies of the warrant and they could release them. But if the justice department actually complied with their demands the message would be: "Look at how much they leak to hurt Trump!"
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: yossarian22c on August 10, 2022, 02:38:17 PM
What a surprise.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/does-plead-fifth-mean-trumps-115925747.html

Now lets play all of the videos of Trump saying only the guilty need to take the 5th.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMyh7ko9L2g

And he did take the fifth on all questions.

https://www.npr.org/2022/08/10/1116714746/trump-testimony-deposition-new-york (https://www.npr.org/2022/08/10/1116714746/trump-testimony-deposition-new-york)

Quote
announcing more than an hour later that he "declined to answer the questions under the rights and privileges afforded to every citizen under the United States Constitution."
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 10, 2022, 02:41:15 PM
Just like his tax returns.  He could release them at any time, even with an audit going on.

What does he have to hide?  It sure looks like the Trump Crime Family is circling the wagons.  I mean that is who Trump has said who uses the 5th, The Mob.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 10, 2022, 02:43:05 PM
And I just want to be clear.  I really do not have any problem with Trump taking the 5th. I wish he  had done it 3-4 years ago when this all started and saved every one the time and money.  It is his right to claim the 5th and he has every right to  do so.

But I do want to call out his hypocrisy.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Wayward Son on August 10, 2022, 05:10:28 PM
Meanwhile, other Trump supporters are threatening the judge who supposedly signed off on the search warrant of Mar-a-Lago. (https://politicalwire.com/2022/08/10/extremists-threatening-the-trump-search-warrant-judge/)
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 10, 2022, 05:47:48 PM
Ah the Party of Law and Order.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: TheDrake on August 11, 2022, 08:02:52 AM
But wait a minute, I thought the trumpies had the utmost respect for judges privacy and that it was criminal to attempt to protest their actions?
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 11, 2022, 08:03:58 AM
Again, only when it is your judges.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Mynnion on August 11, 2022, 08:09:38 AM
Wasn't this a Trump appointed judge?  Oops, I forgot that as soon as anyone exercises and action that questions Trump they are woke traitors.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 11, 2022, 08:35:59 AM
So maybe the FBI was tipped off by someone inside Mar-a-Lago.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/fbi-tipped-off-informer-close-043856588.html

Eric Trump was there.  Hmmm.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: TheDrake on August 11, 2022, 08:46:01 AM
Clearly the judge is secret Antifa. Sneaky devils.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Wayward Son on August 11, 2022, 11:06:05 AM
Looks like Judge Reinhart was appointed by Donald Trump in 2018. (https://theancestory.com/judge-bruce-reinhar/)  But don't worry--Donald only appoints the best judges.  Just ask him. :)

Meanwhile, various conspiracy theories have arisen about the raid, including one that it was timed to occur on the day Richard Nixon resigned. (https://www.politico.com/news/2022/08/11/trump-evidence-fbi-search-00050990) :)
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on August 11, 2022, 01:04:53 PM
Yes, Judge Bruce Reinhart was appointed by Trump in 2018. His name somehow made it on the list of good judges. The info that he was a donor to Obama and Never-Trumpers came later. The Epstein stuff is interesting but not very germane. Lots of attorneys defend scumbags. He did step down from his position as a prosecutor to sign up the next day to represent two of Epstein's closest employees. On the outside, he looked competent - but taking his social postings show him to be a rather reckless Never-Trumper. This could have started when he was a Jeb Bush supporter and Jeb was demolished by Trump's campaigning before 2016. There is no doubt that Reinhart had the bona fides to be appointed. It was his inner beast that went unnoticed when Trump appointed him. Now is a different time, and his actions are under scrutiny.

The National Archives and Records Administration asked for the raid. According to their policy, material is generally consigned to them after a President leaves office. However; policy is not law. It is strictly the wishlist of the policy makers for their own betterment. What is embedded in law; is that the President IS the classifier-in-chief of all documents and information. Whatever he decides is unclassified becomes so. The NARA may want files for their collection - but there is no necessity to do so. Stare decisis and precedent shows Clinton and Obama keeping far more documents (...and White House furniture in Clinton's case) than Trump did, and with no FBI raids to get them back. The correct procedure is to go only after the info documented in a verified affidavit which is the sole authority for a warrant. All such info collected must be signed for and documented. There is no authority to raid the FLOTUS wardrobe, or take 15 boxes of uncatalogued documents. Especially not to bring in a safe0cracker to open a personal safe. Most everything collected is liable for challenge - and the legality of anything discovered may be moot. Trump could have written a receipt to give Putin a key to the Treasury, and it would be inadmissible in Court if not specifically written in the Warrent, and authorized by the affidavit.

There are currently suits to reveal the affidavit and get copies of the warrant, that were only flashed at the MAL staff from 10 feet away. and never handed over. This whole raid stinks and needs to become transparent. With this administration that may be wishful thinking, but it looks to ensure the Red Wave.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 11, 2022, 01:19:59 PM
You know Trump has a copy of the warrant, right?  They have to give him a copy and a receipt for what they took. Since you do not know what the warrant said how do you know they had no right to raid FLOTUS wardrobe?  And bringing a safe cracker to open a safe that is most likely part of the subject of the raid seems perfectly legal to me.

From all that I have read this seems like a perfectly legal execution of a legal search warrant.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Mynnion on August 11, 2022, 01:30:35 PM
WM-The Presidential Records Act is not policy but law.  The fact that Trump also had a large number of classified documents that were part of the 15 boxes collected is also questionable.  I find it interesting that those who wanted to lock Clinton up for the handful of classified documents found on her server don't seem to have any interest in holding Trump to the same standard.  Yes, the president CAN declassify data but it still has to be done through channels and only while he was president.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 11, 2022, 01:36:33 PM
And the attack on the judge is par for the course for Trump supporters.  They are fine and dandy until they make a ruling that goes against Toddler Trump and then all of a sudden they are far left activist judges who never should have been appointed in the first place.

No thought that maybe the judge did the correct thing.  He followed the law and correct procedure.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Wayward Son on August 11, 2022, 01:50:07 PM
Quote
Most everything collected is liable for challenge - and the legality of anything discovered may be moot. Trump could have written a receipt to give Putin a key to the Treasury, and it would be inadmissible in Court if not specifically written in the Warrant, and authorized by the affidavit.

Nope.  Anything that is in plain sight during the search is admissible. (https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/4-things-to-know-about-the-fbi-search-of-donald-trumps-mar-a-lago-estate)  If the warrant allowed them to open the safe, and the receipt was in there, it is admissible.  They just can't go ripping beds apart if the warrant doesn't say there may be papers inside the bed. :)

There is also the fact that raids like these are only authorized when there is a crime being committed at the time.  It would be interesting to see what the warrant said.  Perhaps you should encourage Trump to release his copy of it.  (I heard that one of his lawyers has a copy, regardless of what Eric said.)
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: LetterRip on August 11, 2022, 02:43:10 PM
Quote
There is also the fact that raids like these are only authorized when there is a crime being committed at the time.

Or where destruction or removal of evidence is likely to occur if there is forewarning.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 11, 2022, 03:09:26 PM
Looks like the Gov tried to get the documents back earlier this year. But Trump kept them anyway.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/subpoena-preceded-search-warrant-push-181637433.html

It looks like Trump continues to think the Laws do not apply to him.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Wayward Son on August 11, 2022, 03:45:25 PM
Why should he?  Do any of his supporters think any law applies to him? ;)
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 11, 2022, 08:55:19 PM
Now that the US AG is saying he is going to ask for the warrant to be unseal, there is talk in Trump land that he might oppose that request.

Why would Trump oppose that request?  Hell, why hasn't he released a copy to the press himself if he is so outraged over it?

Maybe because the DOJ and FBI had good info and there were documents that he was supposed to have returned and did not.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 12, 2022, 07:50:09 AM
Looks like Trump is not going to oppose the unsealing of the warrant. Good.

As to Obama taking records.  He followed the rules.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-baselessly-bashed-obama-transferring-000423148.html

Trump does not get it. He does not own the USA like he does the Trump companies. There are rules he has to follow. We all know he does not like following rules.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: TheDrake on August 12, 2022, 08:06:32 AM
In trump world, they think it's good that he doesn't follow the rules. The rules are stupid and trump is a heavily muscled machine gun toting hero with an eagle perched on his shoulder. They might find maps of all our nuclear assets there, and their faith would be unwavering. The evidence was planted. They see nothing wrong with the fact that he ran the government from mar-a-Lago and discussed national security next to the salad bar.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Mynnion on August 12, 2022, 08:30:24 AM
You missed the American Flag cape :)
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on August 12, 2022, 10:27:01 AM
You know Trump has a copy of the warrant, right?  They have to give him a copy and a receipt for what they took. Since you do not know what the warrant said how do you know they had no right to raid FLOTUS wardrobe?  And bringing a safe cracker to open a safe that is most likely part of the subject of the raid seems perfectly legal to me.

From all that I have read this seems like a perfectly legal execution of a legal search warrant.

No. Trump’s lawyer Christina Bobb was only shown part of the warrant. For your understanding, the warrant in question was released early by Trump to the public - but holds little info. The withheld info is all in the affidavit that verified the need for an emergency raid. The specific locations to be searched should have been listed, and legal Trump representatives should have been allowed to witness the raid in its entirety, but they were ordered out of the home to the end of the driveway. These Trump people have said they fear the FBI planted listening and video devices through out the MAL living quarters. The contents of the searched material should have been itemized in detail. They were in there for the better part of a day - so there was time - yet the itemization supposedly only generically lists "boxes".

We know the FBI was proved to have lied about verification of FISA warrants and years of professing what they knew to be lies in order to spy on Trump and his associates. There is no reason at this point to give Justice any credibility. Over half a decade of proof of felony by Democrats has been ignored - yet this raid was sanctioned. Do you recall the raids on other Trump associates?" For minor non-felonious accusations (later proved to be in error) they were held at the end of their driveways in the dead of night - without being allowed to put on their pants, while helicopters and frogmen patrolled the beachfront. There was nothing to be found, yet they grabbed everything they could get their hands on. What can the FBI discover to prove lies about Russia corraboration, when the whole Russia! Russia! Russia! was a lie? Hillary's people were given immunity without being asked any questions. Quite the contrast, neh?

The dark side is plain to see. The more they try to set up Trump as a felonious strawman only defines themselves.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 12, 2022, 10:42:21 AM
You are relaying Fox talking points again.  Trumps lawyers have the warrant and the list of what was taken.

Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on August 12, 2022, 10:48:52 AM
The PRA is moot, because Obama, Clinton, and others all flaunted it and were never held to follow it. The President is the final arbiter of what is classified and what is not. If the nuclear codes were declassified by the President, then they were declassified. No PRA can circumvent that. Hillary only gave back some of the White House furniture they stole because of public pressure to do so. Gifts to the office and not to the person in the office are not to be removed - but such disagreements have always been adjudicated. Merrick Garland is flustered by this attention - and probably wants to ream some of his people new holes in their anatomies for what they are doing to his legacy. But judging from past experience, no one will be held to account for their injudicious actions.

The Red wave is looming larger than ever. Those in line for indictment are scared for their future and appear ready to do anything to avoid their own justice.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Tom on August 12, 2022, 10:54:48 AM
Quote
If the nuclear codes were declassified by the President, then they were declassified.
Is there a record of his hypothetical decision to declassify them?
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on August 12, 2022, 10:55:25 AM
You are relaying Fox talking points again.  Trumps lawyers have the warrant and the list of what was taken.

Exactly as I posted. Part of the warrant without the affidavit(s) and a generic listing. The specifics of what the FBI raiders did in secret is still open. The raid varies from the treatment of obviously guilty Democrats. Why are you apologizing for their actions? At some point, those boxes must be opened and inventoried. If there are no Trump representatives there, there can be no credibility. When you lie to the FISA Court, those actions have consequences.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on August 12, 2022, 10:55:59 AM
Quote
If the nuclear codes were declassified by the President, then they were declassified.
Is there a record of his hypothetical decision to declassify them?

Truth Social is one place.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: yossarian22c on August 12, 2022, 10:58:24 AM
Quote
If the nuclear codes were declassified by the President, then they were declassified.
Is there a record of his hypothetical decision to declassify them?

Truth Social is one place.

Trump can’t declassify things anymore. He would have had to declassify everything before he left office. Not after.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Tom on August 12, 2022, 11:00:57 AM
William, are you saying that if Trump had, as president, gone onto social media and declared, "Any nuclear secrets I may have in my possession in the future are officially declassified," that would have been sufficient notice?

I strongly suspect that multiple arms of our government would disagree with you. :)

------------

Quote
The raid varies from the treatment of obviously guilty Democrats.
Which Democrats, specifically?
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: NobleHunter on August 12, 2022, 11:02:47 AM
I believe nuclear secrets are covered by separate rules than the usual classification regime such that the President may not be able to simply declassify them. Whether or not those rules are Constitutional has not been tested.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Tom on August 12, 2022, 11:12:48 AM
(It should also be noted that anything the president unilaterally declassifies officially becomes vulnerable to FOIA requests. I am extremely skeptical that Trump chose, while president, to make any of these documents available to FOIA -- although this could be tested by anyone willing to file a FOIA request for them. *grin*)
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: rightleft22 on August 12, 2022, 11:48:48 AM
The government that would replace the government by those that don't trust government scares me.
I suspect that many aiding consciously or unconsciously in  the undermining of the institutions won't like what they will replace the institutions with but I doubt many have thought that far.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on August 12, 2022, 11:56:24 AM
I believe nuclear secrets are covered by separate rules than the usual classification regime such that the President may not be able to simply declassify them. Whether or not those rules are Constitutional has not been tested.
(It should also be noted that anything the president unilaterally declassifies officially becomes vulnerable to FOIA requests. I am extremely skeptical that Trump chose, while president, to make any of these documents available to FOIA -- although this could be tested by anyone willing to file a FOIA request for them. *grin*)

FOIA requests are applicable to agency records - not personal property. When a President decides to declassify anything, there does not need to be a declaration. The action of putting documents into the public domain defines the action.

Yes, something that endangers National Security is dangerous, but not because of classification, but because of content. That is a separate actionable offense. You don't need to be a President to endanger the Nation.

Even so, if there is a listing of Nuclear sites, as some have proposed, that is still not a problem if it is under lock and key. I note that Hillary did reveal the name of an Iranian scientist who was helping us in her hacked emails, that did get him killed. That is a separate actionable offense that should have put her in prison by now. Nothing was done. Again, if such a nuclear listing was included in Trump's locked storage are, then it is easily accessible by negotiation and would have been remediated without protest. It does not rise to the emergenct level to provoke a raid.

Former FBI assistant director Chris Swecker: "What you're supposed to do when you possess these types of powers that the FBI does and Justice Department does is use the least intrusive investigative technique to get to what you need to get to, [whether] it's information, evidence, what have you. You're supposed to take into consideration the seriousness of the offense, and the impact on the public confidence in the FBI and law enforcement in general. These are codified in the domestic investigative operation guidelines and the attorney general guidelines. What jumps out at me is how that was completely … just shifted aside, just pushed aside. And this dramatic raid takes place over a fairly de minimis offense. Police lights flashing, dawn raid, kitted out ninja warriors outside, 30 agents inside."