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General Category => General Comments => Topic started by: msquared on April 20, 2022, 07:51:22 PM

Title: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on April 20, 2022, 07:51:22 PM
Trump campaign ordered to pay legal fees in law suite they lost.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-campaign-ordered-pay-omarosa-215922156.html

He just keeps loosing and loosing and loosing.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Crunch on April 23, 2022, 10:34:07 AM
All Trump all the time. Get some help
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on April 23, 2022, 12:47:04 PM
If he and his family and toadies would shut up and go away I would let it go. But as long as he is still out there peddling his election lies and destroying the Party I grew up a member of, I am going to continue enjoying his downfall.  I'll shut up when he shuts up.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: TheDrake on April 23, 2022, 12:54:32 PM
I'll never get tired of watching Trump lose. Keep it coming, msquared.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on April 25, 2022, 01:15:17 PM
And again.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/judge-holds-trump-contempt-failing-164041262.html

His defense was that the documents asked for where in the possession of the Trump Corporation and not in his possession, so he could not turn them over. He has no control over what the Trump Corporation does.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: TheDrake on April 25, 2022, 01:46:26 PM
Well he can't provide the documents because he tore them all up by hand and the Trump organization doesn't have a phalanx of designated paper tapers.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Crunch on April 26, 2022, 02:05:39 PM
If he and his family and toadies would shut up and go away I would let it go. But as long as he is still out there peddling his election lies and destroying the Party I grew up a member of, I am going to continue enjoying his downfall.  I'll shut up when he shuts up.

You’ve got “Long TDS”. I don’t think you’ll be able to stop, he broke you somehow. Literally cracked your mental foundation is some fundamental way. I see a few like this. I worry about you when trump retakes the whitehouse.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on April 26, 2022, 02:24:11 PM
That's right, you know all about me. You should be an FBI profiler with how well you read people.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: rightleft22 on April 26, 2022, 02:52:12 PM
I wonder how history will define “TDS”
That's if history will still a subject to be studied?
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Wayward Son on April 26, 2022, 04:25:05 PM
If he and his family and toadies would shut up and go away I would let it go. But as long as he is still out there peddling his election lies and destroying the Party I grew up a member of, I am going to continue enjoying his downfall.  I'll shut up when he shuts up.

You’ve got “Long TDS”. I don’t think you’ll be able to stop, he broke you somehow. Literally cracked your mental foundation is some fundamental way. I see a few like this.

You mean "Trump Delusion Syndrome," where perfectly intelligent people fall under the delusion that Donald J. Trump was a decent President and/or a decent human being?  Sorry, Crunch, but I don't think he's the one who has it.  ;) ;D

Quote
I worry about you when trump retakes the whitehouse.

Msquared is the least of your worries.  You should be worried about our whole nation and probably American democracy itself!  :'(
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on April 26, 2022, 07:14:01 PM
If he and his family and toadies would shut up and go away I would let it go. But as long as he is still out there peddling his election lies and destroying the Party I grew up a member of, I am going to continue enjoying his downfall.  I'll shut up when he shuts up.

You’ve got “Long TDS”. I don’t think you’ll be able to stop, he broke you somehow. Literally cracked your mental foundation is some fundamental way. I see a few like this.

You mean "Trump Delusion Syndrome," where perfectly intelligent people fall under the delusion that Donald J. Trump was a decent President and/or a decent human being?  Sorry, Crunch, but I don't think he's the one who has it.  ;) ;D

Quote
I worry about you when trump retakes the whitehouse.

Msquared is the least of your worries.  You should be worried about our whole nation and probably American democracy itself!  :'(

Trump Delusion Syndrome refers to people like you who hate Trump because of disinformation. You've been snookered by your own side, who laugh at you as their "idiot morons": cannon fodder to their power grabs. Trump was a decent President. Name one President who honored his promises before his election better than Trump did. Your side loved Trump before he chose to run on the GOP ticket. Odd that such a perceived slap in the face means he is the one who behaves with vitriol.

As for fear of Trump (another symptom of TDS), he is far superior in protecting the Constitution and our citizens than you guys. There would have been no border incursion, Afghanistan surrender, nor war in Ukraine had Biden not vote-scammed the election.
 
The good news is that the populace sees this and the poll numbers reflect what will happen in the midterm and in 2024. The Democrat Party is in full retreat, with defections to the GOP from those hoping to stay in office. The collusionists who lied about Trump are fearing indictments after the GOP regains the majority. They, not Trump, lied about Russian collusion and the Russian bank scandal. Sussman was already seen to be guilty, and his claim to not have been paid by Hillary was blown up by a stupid Hillary claiming attorney/client privilege.

However; there are still plenty of pathetic attacks aimed at Trump and his family and associates, which will probably all be overturned by honest courts. The Dems are all quaking in their boots now that the GOP have pledged to fully investigate and bring them to justice. I don't know if Pelosi, Schumer, Shiff, Comey, Hillary, and the other liars and inveiglers will get perp-walked to prison in orange jump-suits because of their paid-for enablers, but we shall see. Were I you, perhaps a little common-sense might be in order.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: TheDrake on April 27, 2022, 06:51:45 AM
Let's note that Trump detractors, if that is "our side" are a big tent. They include Michael Bolton, James Mattis, John Kelly, HR McMaster, Omarosa Manigault Newman, Gary Cohn, Rex Tillerson.... basically everyone who isn't a Trump worshipping sychophant.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: yossarian22c on April 27, 2022, 03:37:11 PM
...

Trump Delusion Syndrome refers to people like you who hate Trump because of disinformation. You've been snookered by your own side, who laugh at you as their "idiot morons": cannon fodder to their power grabs. Trump was a decent President. Name one President who honored his promises before his election better than Trump did. Your side loved Trump before he chose to run on the GOP ticket. Odd that such a perceived slap in the face means he is the one who behaves with vitriol.
...

I never loved Trump. His show sucked, his businesses regularly failed, he was always a pompous self aggrandizing ass.

As to his promises:

The Wall:
How much did Trump spend on the border wall that Mexico was going to pay for? How many miles got put up? And how many holes have been cut in it already? Or how many toddlers have climbed over?
 
Tax returns:
Still waiting to see those, he really wants to keep them hidden. Pretty surprising for the most transparent president ever.


I addressed two promises, were there others you were thinking of? Care to tackle those points or either of these two issues in relation your presidential hero.

Business interests:
How much did foreign governments and sovereign wealth funds spend buying and renting Trump properties during his presidency? I know the Qatar sovereign wealth fund rented a good chunk of a building in San Francisco and left it empty. Wonder what value they were getting from that investment.

Advisors:
Name a single president who has had a revolving door of people leaving office and writing books about how horrible the president who they worked for was? Do you read the books written by people who left the administration?
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on April 27, 2022, 04:42:19 PM
The Real Estate company Trump used to value his properties is in deep doodoo  now.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/judge-says-real-estate-giant-195804610.html
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: TheDrake on April 27, 2022, 06:08:04 PM
Quote
Some of the evidence made public by James in January revealed the ridiculous lengths which Trump went to inflate the value of his properties, including one instance in which he lied by simply tripling the size of his already humongous three-story penthouse at Trump Tower.

I somehow missed that nuance until now. HA HA HA! My penthouse apartment in Yuuuuge!
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Crunch on April 29, 2022, 08:30:27 AM
That's right, you know all about me. You should be an FBI profiler with how well you read people.

I can see that you mention Trump in very nearly every single post you make, tying him to even the most random things. I can see you doing it over an extended period of time. Hell, everyone can see that. We all, actually, know about you and if we're being honest then we all know you need some therapy.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on April 29, 2022, 08:37:49 AM
And you hate that I keep bringing up how often Trump is loosing.  You seem to have MDS. It is obvious to everyone you need therapy.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Crunch on April 29, 2022, 10:33:10 AM
And you hate that I keep bringing up how often Trump is loosing.  You seem to have MDS. It is obvious to everyone you need therapy.

I don't hate it, it's actually pretty amusing to see the convoluted logic and blueanon conspiracy theory woven together. I quite enjoy your trip into mental breakdown from a purely rational perspective.

I think you need help. You are clearly having obsessive, paranoid, thoughts. You're fixated. It's not healthy and, Mark, I encourage you to get professional help.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on April 29, 2022, 10:36:34 AM
Thank you Dr Crunch.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on May 03, 2022, 10:51:13 AM
And one more loss.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/dc-reaches-750k-settlement-trump-143257315.html
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on May 06, 2022, 07:27:43 PM
https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/donald-trump-lawsuit-seeking-overturn-215952142.html
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on May 07, 2022, 09:09:07 PM
...The Wall:
How much did Trump spend on the border wall that Mexico was going to pay for? How many miles got put up? And how many holes have been cut in it already? Or how many toddlers have climbed over?

You mean the wall that the Dems did everything to derail? Just look at what Biden did within days of being sworn in. Yeah, let's close down all the wall-building contracts that took years to clear all the nuisance lawsuits, thereby throwing thousands out of work, leaving the border open, and leaving paid-for and already delivered supplies to ort or be stolen. The overworked border agents have been ridiculed and insulted non-stop, unable to cover the millions of illegals who want to bring in drugs and human-smuggling - and allowing the drug cartels to get even richer and more in charge.
 
Tax returns:
Still waiting to see those, he really wants to keep them hidden. Pretty surprising for the most transparent president ever.

He gave you more than past presidents every handed over, yet you obsess on minutiae when Hunter's laptop confirmed the Biden Crime Family taking millions if not billions from enemies everywhere. The difference for you apologists, is that Trump worked for a living and made more money than Dems who just scammed from the government trough. You just want fishing expeditions to create strawman problems. Show us Pelosi's portfolio and maybe you's have a comparative idea.

I addressed two promises, were there others you were thinking of? Care to tackle those points or either of these two issues in relation your presidential hero.

You've got the wrong list. You should comment on everything he did, in spite of the Democrats and Never-Trumpers dragging their feet and doing all they could to get in the way.

Before the China Virus invaded our shores, we built the world’s most prosperous economy.

    America gained 7 million new jobs – more than three times government experts’ projections.
    Middle-Class family income increased nearly $6,000 – more than five times the gains during the entire previous administration.
    The unemployment rate reached 3.5 percent, the lowest in a half-century.
    Achieved 40 months in a row with more job openings than job-hirings.
    More Americans reported being employed than ever before – nearly 160 million.
    Jobless claims hit a nearly 50-year low.
    The number of people claiming unemployment insurance as a share of the population hit its lowest on record.
    Incomes rose in every single metro area in the United States for the first time in nearly 3 decades.

Delivered a future of greater promise and opportunity for citizens of all backgrounds.

    Unemployment rates for African Americans, Hispanic Americans, Asian Americans, Native Americans, veterans, individuals with disabilities, and those without a high school diploma all reached record lows.
    Unemployment for women hit its lowest rate in nearly 70 years.
    Lifted nearly 7 million people off of food stamps.
    Poverty rates for African Americans and Hispanic Americans reached record lows.
    Income inequality fell for two straight years, and by the largest amount in over a decade.
    The bottom 50 percent of American households saw a 40 percent increase in net worth.
    Wages rose fastest for low-income and blue collar workers – a 16 percent pay increase.
    African American homeownership increased from 41.7 percent to 46.4 percent.

Brought jobs, factories, and industries back to the USA.

    Created more than 1.2 million manufacturing and construction jobs.
    Put in place policies to bring back supply chains from overseas.
    Small business optimism broke a 35-year old record in 2018.

Hit record stock market numbers and record 401ks.

    The DOW closed above 20,000 for the first time in 2017 and topped 30,000 in 2020.
    The S&P 500 and NASDAQ have repeatedly notched record highs.

Rebuilding and investing in rural America.

    Signed an Executive Order on Modernizing the Regulatory Framework for Agricultural Biotechnology Products, which is bringing innovative new technologies to market in American farming and agriculture.
    Strengthened America’s rural economy by investing over $1.3 billion through the Agriculture Department’s ReConnect Program to bring high-speed broadband infrastructure to rural America.

Achieved a record-setting economic comeback by rejecting blanket lockdowns.

    An October 2020 Gallup survey found 56 percent of Americans said they were better off during a pandemic than four years prior.
    During the third quarter of 2020, the economy grew at a rate of 33.1 percent – the most rapid GDP growth ever recorded.
    Since coronavirus lockdowns ended, the economy has added back over 12 million jobs, more than half the jobs lost.
    Jobs have been recovered 23 times faster than the previous administration’s recovery.
    Unemployment fell to 6.7 percent in December, from a pandemic peak of 14.7 percent in April – beating expectations of well over 10 percent unemployment through the end of 2020.
    Under the previous administration, it took 49 months for the unemployment rate to fall from 10 percent to under 7 percent compared to just 3 months for the Trump Administration.
    Since April, the Hispanic unemployment rate has fallen by 9.6 percent, Asian-American unemployment by 8.6 percent, and Black American unemployment by 6.8 percent.
    80 percent of small businesses are now open, up from just 53 percent in April.
    Small business confidence hit a new high.
    Homebuilder confidence reached an all-time high, and home sales hit their highest reading since December 2006.
    Manufacturing optimism nearly doubled.
    Household net worth rose $7.4 trillion in Q2 2020 to $112 trillion, an all-time high.
    Home prices hit an all-time record high.
    The United States rejected crippling lockdowns that crush the economy and inflict countless public health harms and instead safely reopened its economy.
    Business confidence is higher in America than in any other G7 or European Union country.
    Stabilized America’s financial markets with the establishment of a number of Treasury Department supported facilities at the Federal Reserve.

Passed $3.2 trillion in historic tax relief and reformed the tax code.

    Signed the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act – the largest tax reform package in history.
    More than 6 million American workers received wage increases, bonuses, and increased benefits thanks to the tax cuts.
    A typical family of four earning $75,000 received an income tax cut of more than $2,000 – slashing their tax bill in half.
    Doubled the standard deduction – making the first $24,000 earned by a married couple completely tax-free.
    Doubled the child tax credit.
    Virtually eliminated the unfair Estate Tax, or Death Tax.
    Cut the business tax rate from 35 percent – the highest in the developed world – all the way down to 21 percent.
    Small businesses can now deduct 20 percent of their business income.
    Businesses can now deduct 100 percent of the cost of their capital investments in the year the investment is made.
    Since the passage of tax cuts, the share of total wealth held by the bottom half of households has increased, while the share held by the top 1 percent has decreased.
    Over 400 companies have announced bonuses, wage increases, new hires, or new investments in the United States.
    Over $1.5 trillion was repatriated into the United States from overseas.
    Lower investment cost and higher capital returns led to faster growth in the middle class, real wages, and international competitiveness.

Jobs and investments are pouring into Opportunity Zones.

    Created nearly 9,000 Opportunity Zones where capital gains on long-term investments are taxed at zero.
    Opportunity Zone designations have increased property values within them by 1.1 percent, creating an estimated $11 billion in wealth for the nearly half of Opportunity Zone residents who own their own home.
    Opportunity Zones have attracted $75 billion in funds and driven $52 billion of new investment in economically distressed communities, creating at least 500,000 new jobs.
    Approximately 1 million Americans will be lifted from poverty as a result of these new investments.
    Private equity investments into businesses in Opportunity Zones were nearly 30 percent higher than investments into businesses in similar areas that were not designated Opportunity Zones.

Ended the regulatory assault on American Businesses and Workers.

    Instead of 2-for-1, we eliminated 8 old regulations for every 1 new regulation adopted.
    Provided the average American household an extra $3,100 every year.
    Reduced the direct cost of regulatory compliance by $50 billion, and will reduce costs by an additional $50 billion in FY 2020 alone.
    Removed nearly 25,000 pages from the Federal Register – more than any other president. The previous administration added over 16,000 pages.
    Established the Governors’ Initiative on Regulatory Innovation to reduce outdated regulations at the state, local, and tribal levels.
    Signed an executive order to make it easier for businesses to offer retirement plans.
    Signed two executive orders to increase transparency in Federal agencies and protect Americans and their small businesses from administrative abuse.
    Modernized the National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA) for the first time in over 40 years.
    Reduced approval times for major infrastructure projects from 10 or more years down to 2 years or less.
    Helped community banks by signing legislation that rolled back costly provisions of Dodd-Frank.
    Established the White House Council on Eliminating Regulatory Barriers to Affordable Housing to bring down housing costs.
    Removed regulations that threatened the development of a strong and stable internet.
    Eased and simplified restrictions on rocket launches, helping to spur commercial investment in space projects.
    Published a whole-of-government strategy focused on ensuring American leadership in automated vehicle technology.
    Streamlined energy efficiency regulations for American families and businesses, including preserving affordable lightbulbs, enhancing the utility of showerheads, and enabling greater time savings with dishwashers.
    Removed unnecessary regulations that restrict the seafood industry and impede job creation.
    Modernized the Department of Agriculture’s biotechnology regulations to put America in the lead to develop new technologies.
    Took action to suspend regulations that would have slowed our response to COVID-19, including lifting restrictions on manufacturers to more quickly produce ventilators.

Successfully rolled back burdensome regulatory overreach.

    Rescinded the previous administration’s Affirmatively Furthering Fair Housing (AFFH) rule, which would have abolished zoning for single-family housing to build low-income, federally subsidized apartments.
    Issued a final rule on the Fair Housing Act’s disparate impact standard.
    Eliminated the Waters of the United States Rule and replaced it with the Navigable Waters Protection Rule, providing relief and certainty for farmers and property owners.
    Repealed the previous administration’s costly fuel economy regulations by finalizing the Safer Affordable Fuel Efficient (SAFE) Vehicles rule, which will make cars more affordable, and lower the price of new vehicles by an estimated $2,200.

Americans now have more money in their pockets.

    Deregulation had an especially beneficial impact on low-income Americans who pay a much higher share of their incomes for overregulation.
    Cut red tape in the healthcare industry, providing Americans with more affordable healthcare and saving Americans nearly 10 percent on prescription drugs.
    Deregulatory efforts yielded savings to the medical community an estimated $6.6 billion – with a reduction of 42 million hours of regulatory compliance work through 2021.
    Removed government barriers to personal freedom and consumer choice in healthcare.
    Once fully in effect, 20 major deregulatory actions undertaken by the Trump Administration are expected to save American consumers and businesses over $220 billion per year.
    Signed 16 pieces of deregulatory legislation that will result in a $40 billion increase in annual real incomes.

Secured historic trade deals to defend American workers.

    Immediately withdrew from the job-killing Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP).
    Ended the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA), and replaced it with the brand new United States-Mexico-Canada Agreement (USMCA).
    The USMCA contains powerful new protections for American manufacturers, auto-makers, farmers, dairy producers, and workers.
    The USMCA is expected to generate over $68 billion in economic activity and potentially create over 550,000 new jobs over ten years.
    Signed an executive order making it government policy to Buy American and Hire American, and took action to stop the outsourcing of jobs overseas.
    Negotiated with Japan to slash tariffs and open its market to $7 billion in American agricultural products and ended its ban on potatoes and lamb.
    Over 90 percent of American agricultural exports to Japan now receive preferential treatment, and most are duty-free.
    Negotiated another deal with Japan to boost $40 billion worth of digital trade.
    Renegotiated the United States-Korea Free Trade Agreement, doubling the cap on imports of American vehicles and extending the American light truck tariff.
    Reached a written, fully-enforceable Phase One trade agreement with China on confronting pirated and counterfeit goods, and the protection of American ideas, trade secrets, patents, and trademarks.
    China agreed to purchase an additional $200 billion worth of United States exports and opened market access for over 4,000 American facilities to exports while all tariffs remained in effect.
    Achieved a mutual agreement with the European Union (EU) that addresses unfair trade practices and increases duty-free exports by 180 percent to $420 million.
    Secured a pledge from the EU to eliminate tariffs on American lobster – the first United States-European Union negotiated tariff reduction in over 20 years.
    Scored a historic victory by overhauling the Universal Postal Union, whose outdated policies were undermining American workers and interests.
    Engaged extensively with trade partners like the EU and Japan to advance reforms to the World Trade Organization (WTO).
    Issued a first-ever comprehensive report on the WTO Appellate Body’s failures to comply with WTO rules and interpret WTO agreements as written.
    Blocked nominees to the WTO’s Appellate Body until WTO Members recognize and address longstanding issues with Appellate Body activism.
    Submitted 5 papers to the WTO Committee on Agriculture to improve Members’ understanding of how trade policies are implemented, highlight areas for improved transparency, and encourage members to maintain up-to-date notifications on market access and domestic support.

Took strong actions to confront unfair trade practices and put America First.

    Imposed tariffs on hundreds of billions worth of Chinese goods to protect American jobs and stop China’s abuses under Section 232 of the Trade Expansion Act of 1962 and Section 301 of the Trade Act of 1974.
    Directed an all-of-government effort to halt and punish efforts by the Communist Party of China to steal and profit from American innovations and intellectual property.
    Imposed tariffs on foreign aluminum and foreign steel to protect our vital industries and support our national security.
    Approved tariffs on $1.8 billion in imports of washing machines and $8.5 billion in imports of solar panels.
    Blocked illegal timber imports from Peru.
    Took action against France for its digital services tax that unfairly targets American technology companies.
    Launched investigations into digital services taxes that have been proposed or adopted by 10 other countries.

Historic support for American farmers.

    Successfully negotiated more than 50 agreements with countries around the world to increase foreign market access and boost exports of American agriculture products, supporting more than 1 million American jobs.
    Authorized $28 billion in aid for farmers who have been subjected to unfair trade practices – fully funded by the tariffs paid by China.
    China lifted its ban on poultry, opened its market to beef, and agreed to purchase at least $80 billion of American agricultural products in the next two years.
    The European Union agreed to increase beef imports by 180 percent and opened up its market to more imports of soybeans.
    South Korea lifted its ban on American poultry and eggs, and agreed to provide market access for record exports of American rice.
    Argentina lifted its ban on American pork.
    Brazil agreed to increase wheat imports by $180 million a year and raised its quotas for purchases of United States ethanol.
    Guatemala and Tunisia opened up their markets to American eggs.
    Won tariff exemptions in Ecuador for wheat and soybeans.
    Suspended $817 million in trade preferences for Thailand under the Generalized System of Preferences (GSP) program due to its failure to adequately provide reasonable market access for American pork products.
    The amount of food stamps redeemed at farmers markets increased from $1.4 million in May 2020 to $1.75 million in September 2020 – a 50 percent increase over last year.
    Rapidly deployed the Coronavirus Food Assistance Program, which provided $30 billion in support to farmers and ranchers facing decreased prices and market disruption when COVID-19 impacted the food supply chain.
    Authorized more than $6 billion for the Farmers to Families Food Box program, which delivered over 128 million boxes of locally sourced, produce, meat, and dairy products to charity and faith-based organizations nationwide.
    Delegated authorities via the Defense Production Act to protect breaks in the American food supply chain as a result of COVID-19.

(Continued in next post)
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on May 07, 2022, 09:09:25 PM
Unleashed America’s oil and natural gas potential.

    For the first time in nearly 70 years, the United States has become a net energy exporter.
    The United States is now the number one producer of oil and natural gas in the world.
    Natural gas production reached a record-high of 34.9 quads in 2019, following record high production in 2018 and in 2017.
    The United States has been a net natural gas exporter for three consecutive years and has an export capacity of nearly 10 billion cubic feet per day.
    Withdrew from the unfair, one-sided Paris Climate Agreement.
    Canceled the previous administration’s Clean Power Plan, and replaced it with the new Affordable Clean Energy rule.
    Approved the Keystone XL and Dakota Access pipelines.
    Opened up the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge (ANWR) in Alaska to oil and gas leasing.
    Repealed the last administration’s Federal Coal Leasing Moratorium, which prohibited coal leasing on Federal lands.
    Reformed permitting rules to eliminate unnecessary bureaucracy and speed approval for mines.
    Fixed the New Source Review permitting program, which punished companies for upgrading or repairing coal power plants.
    Fixed the Environmental Protection Agency’s (EPA) steam electric and coal ash rules.
    The average American family saved $2,500 a year in lower electric bills and lower prices at the gas pump.
    Signed legislation repealing the harmful Stream Protection Rule.
    Reduced the time to approve drilling permits on public lands by half, increasing permit applications to drill on public lands by 300 percent.
    Expedited approval of the NuStar’s New Burgos pipeline to export American gasoline to Mexico.
    Streamlined Liquefied natural gas (LNG) terminal permitting and allowed long-term LNG export authorizations to be extended through 2050.
    The United States is now among the top three LNG exporters in the world.
    Increased LNG exports five-fold since January 2017, reaching an all-time high in January 2020.
    LNG exports are expected to reduce the American trade deficit by over $10 billion.
    Granted more than 20 new long-term approvals for LNG exports to non-free trade agreement countries.
    The development of natural gas and LNG infrastructure in the United States is providing tens of thousands of jobs, and has led to the investment of tens of billions of dollars in infrastructure.
    There are now 6 LNG export facilities operating in the United States, with 2 additional export projects under construction.
    The amount of nuclear energy production in 2019 was the highest on record, through a combination of increased capacity from power plant upgrades and shorter refueling and maintenance cycles.
    Prevented Russian energy coercion across Europe through various lines of effort, including the Partnership for Transatlantic Energy Cooperation, civil nuclear deals with Romania and Poland, and opposition to Nord Stream 2 pipeline.
    Issued the Presidential Permit for the A2A railroad between Canada and Alaska, providing energy resources to emerging markets.

Increased access to our country’s abundant natural resources in order to achieve energy independence.

    Renewable energy production and consumption both reached record highs in 2019.
    Enacted policies that helped double the amount of electricity generated by solar and helped increase the amount of wind generation by 32 percent from 2016 through 2019.
    Accelerated construction of energy infrastructure to ensure American energy producers can deliver their products to the market.
    Cut red tape holding back the construction of new energy infrastructure.
    Authorized ethanol producers to sell E15 year-round and allowed higher-ethanol gasoline to be distributed from existing pumps at filling stations.
    Ensured greater transparency and certainty in the Renewable Fuel Standard (RFS) program.
    Negotiated leasing capacity in the Strategic Petroleum Reserve to Australia, providing American taxpayers a return on this infrastructure investment.
    Signed an executive order directing Federal agencies to work together to diminish the capability of foreign adversaries to target our critical electric infrastructure.
    Reformed Section 401 of the Clean Water Act regulation to allow for the curation of interstate infrastructure.
    Resolved the OPEC (Organization of the Petroleum Exporting Countries) oil crisis during COVID-19 by getting OPEC, Russia, and others to cut nearly 10 million barrels of production a day, stabilizing world oil prices.
    Directed the Department of Energy to use the Strategic Petroleum Reserve to mitigate market volatility caused by COVID-19.

Affordable and high-quality Child Care for American workers and their families.

    Doubled the Child Tax Credit from $1,000 to $2,000 per child and expanded the eligibility for receiving the credit.
    Nearly 40 million families benefitted from the child tax credit (CTC), receiving an average benefit of $2,200 – totaling credits of approximately $88 billion.
    Signed the largest-ever increase in Child Care and Development Block Grants – expanding access to quality, affordable child care for more than 800,000 low-income families.
    Secured an additional $3.5 billion in the Coronavirus Aid, Relief, and Economic Security (CARES) Act to help families and first responders with child care needs.
    Created the first-ever paid family leave tax credit for employees earning $72,000 or less.
    Signed into law 12-weeks of paid parental leave for Federal workers.
    Signed into law a provision that enables new parents to withdraw up to $5,000 from their retirement accounts without penalty when they give birth to or adopt a child.

Advanced apprenticeship career pathways to good-paying jobs.

    Expanded apprenticeships to more than 850,000 and established the new Industry-Recognized Apprenticeship programs in new and emerging fields.
    Established the National Council for the American Worker and the American Workforce Policy Advisory Board.
    Over 460 companies have signed the Pledge to America’s Workers, committing to provide more than 16 million job and training opportunities.
    Signed an executive order that directs the Federal government to replace outdated degree-based hiring with skills-based hiring.

Advanced women’s economic empowerment.

    Included women’s empowerment for the first time in the President’s 2017 National Security Strategy.
    Signed into law key pieces of legislation, including the Women, Peace, and Security Act and the Women Entrepreneurship and Economic Empowerment Act.
    Launched the Women’s Global Development and Prosperity (W-GDP) Initiative – the first-ever whole-of-government approach to women’s economic empowerment that has reached 24 million women worldwide.
    Established an innovative new W-GDP Fund at USAID.
    Launched the Women Entrepreneurs Finance Initiative (We-Fi) with 13 other nations.
    Announced a $50 million donation on behalf of the United States to We-Fi providing more capital to women-owned businesses around the world.
    Released the first-ever Strategy on Women, Peace, and Security, which focused on increasing women’s participation to prevent and resolve conflicts.
    Launched the W-GDP 2x Global Women’s Initiative with the Development Finance Corporation, which has mobilized more than $3 billion in private sector investments over three years.

Ensured American leadership in technology and innovation.

    First administration to name artificial intelligence, quantum information science, and 5G communications as national research and development priorities.
    Launched the American Broadband Initiative to promote the rapid deployment of broadband internet across rural America.
    Made 100 megahertz of crucial mid-band spectrum available for commercial operations, a key factor to driving widespread 5G access across rural America.
    Launched the American AI Initiative to ensure American leadership in artificial intelligence (AI), and established the National AI Initiative Office at the White House.
    Established the first-ever principles for Federal agency adoption of AI to improve services for the American people.
    Signed the National Quantum Initiative Act establishing the National Quantum Coordination Office at the White House to drive breakthroughs in quantum information science.
    Signed the Secure 5G and Beyond Act to ensure America leads the world in 5G.
    Launched a groundbreaking program to test safe and innovative commercial drone operations nationwide.
    Issued new rulemaking to accelerate the return of American civil supersonic aviation.
    Committed to doubling investments in AI and quantum information science (QIS) research and development.
    Announced the establishment of $1 billion AI and quantum research institutes across America.
    Established the largest dual-use 5G test sites in the world to advance 5G commercial and military innovation.
    Signed landmark Prague Principles with America’s allies to advance the deployment of secure 5G telecommunications networks.
    Signed first-ever bilateral AI cooperation agreement with the United Kingdom.
    Built collation among allies to ban Chinese Telecom Company Huawei from their 5G infrastructure.

Preserved American jobs for American workers and rejected the importation of cheap foreign labor.

    Pressured the Tennessee Valley Authority (TVA) to reverse their decision to lay off over 200 American workers and replace them with cheaper foreign workers.
    Removed the TVA Chairman of the Board and a TVA Board Member.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: yossarian22c on May 07, 2022, 09:48:30 PM
Wm, I have no interest in reading, refuting, or agreeing with what ever website you copy and pasted that from. You want to have a discussion, bring up what you think is good and important don’t drop in the greatest hits from “trump is great dot com.”

Would you engage with me if I just posted the Washington posts list of trump’s 10,000 lies?
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: TheDrake on May 08, 2022, 02:38:07 PM
I would refute any of that laundry list if I thought it would lead to a discussion in good faith. Like pointing out that "opportunity zones" and a lot of other things on that list were simply giving tax breaks to the reach with vague promises of it "trickling down". In many cases they went to developers who already had plans, which is erroneously counted as "jobs created". He certainly increased the number of people employed by people getting huge tax breaks. Other items don't even reflect any value that I hold. I don't want more oil and gas, I want less of it. I want it choked off and wiped out. I want fuel to triple in price.

The fact that you think America leads the world in 5G is delusional. South Korea holds that crown.

It sort of looks like this list was cribbed from an obscure italian blogger (https://nicolafacciolini.blogspot.com/2021/01/il-bilancio-del-presidente-donald-trump.html?view=flipcard). But perhaps it is a rebroadcast of material from Trump Social.

Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on May 08, 2022, 07:46:28 PM
Ignoring Wm's data dump, we have another loss.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/federal-judge-obliterates-trump-short-233417639.html
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on May 08, 2022, 09:12:13 PM
Wm, I have no interest in reading, refuting, or agreeing with what ever website you copy and pasted that from. You want to have a discussion, bring up what you think is good and important don’t drop in the greatest hits from “trump is great dot com.”

Would you engage with me if I just posted the Washington posts list of trump’s 10,000 lies?

That is from the official White House website cataloging the Trump accomplishments. Nothing posted because of opinion - just pure metrics.

Please examine the Biden White House website and look at the lack of accomplishments. If you find anything, remember Biden is a plagiarist and liar, so check the Trump list and see what Biden claims as his, that Trump actually did.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: yossarian22c on May 09, 2022, 09:20:58 AM
Wm, I have no interest in reading, refuting, or agreeing with what ever website you copy and pasted that from. You want to have a discussion, bring up what you think is good and important don’t drop in the greatest hits from “trump is great dot com.”

Would you engage with me if I just posted the Washington posts list of trump’s 10,000 lies?

That is from the official White House website cataloging the Trump accomplishments. Nothing posted because of opinion - just pure metrics.
...

I don't care what Trump says Trump did. I pointed out two specific instances where he made high profile promises repeatedly and failed to deliver. Your response was democrats stopped the wall. In the areas where the wall was finished it didn't stop crossings. It has been breached multiple times and Mexico didn't pay. Its why we shouldn't spend hundreds of billions on a border wall. As to the taxes and financial records Trump provided the minimum required by law, not more than any other candidate in history. Unless you simply want to count the number of pages because Trump maintained his controlling interest in his business while being President. His finances are complicated therefore required more pages of required disclosure.

The wall money would have been better spent in a lot of ways. But how about on renewable energy and electric cars. We see the dire national security and economic consequences of relying on Saudi Arabia, Venezuela, Russia, and Iran to provide the world with energy supplies. What did Trump do on that? Tried to role back environmental and fuel efficiency standards that Obama put in.

If you want to discuss a topic, discuss it. I'm never going to engage with that data dump of copy and paste, I don't care where its from.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on May 11, 2022, 07:49:16 PM
...I pointed out two specific instances where he made high profile promises repeatedly and failed to deliver. Your response was democrats stopped the wall. In the areas where the wall was finished it didn't stop crossings. It has been breached multiple times and Mexico didn't pay. Its why we shouldn't spend hundreds of billions on a border wall. As to the taxes and financial records Trump provided the minimum required by law, not more than any other candidate in history. Unless you simply want to count the number of pages because Trump maintained his controlling interest in his business while being President. His finances are complicated therefore required more pages of required disclosure.

The wall money would have been better spent in a lot of ways. But how about on renewable energy and electric cars. We see the dire national security and economic consequences of relying on Saudi Arabia, Venezuela, Russia, and Iran to provide the world with energy supplies. What did Trump do on that? Tried to role back environmental and fuel efficiency standards that Obama put in.

If you want to discuss a topic, discuss it. I'm never going to engage with that data dump of copy and paste, I don't care where its from.

But that's what you just did. Admit it. Trump's promises to make Mexico pay for the wall was slowed because of Democrat foot-dragging - yet he went around them and got Mexico to pay in kind in trade concessions and providing Mexican soldiers to patrol on their side of the wall. He explains it in depth in almost every rally he gives, yet you've never heard it or understood it at all.

I challenge you to look at that "data dump" you are so frightened of. Item after item. Pure unchallengeable metrics that you cannot argue out of existence. You especially missed all those things that Trump accomplished that the plagiarist, Biden, said he did.

How about a sample of your own verity? Explain the one statement that the average American family saved $2,500 a year in lower electric bills and lower prices at the gas pump.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: yossarian22c on May 12, 2022, 11:20:03 AM
...I pointed out two specific instances where he made high profile promises repeatedly and failed to deliver. Your response was democrats stopped the wall. In the areas where the wall was finished it didn't stop crossings. It has been breached multiple times and Mexico didn't pay. Its why we shouldn't spend hundreds of billions on a border wall. As to the taxes and financial records Trump provided the minimum required by law, not more than any other candidate in history. Unless you simply want to count the number of pages because Trump maintained his controlling interest in his business while being President. His finances are complicated therefore required more pages of required disclosure.

The wall money would have been better spent in a lot of ways. But how about on renewable energy and electric cars. We see the dire national security and economic consequences of relying on Saudi Arabia, Venezuela, Russia, and Iran to provide the world with energy supplies. What did Trump do on that? Tried to role back environmental and fuel efficiency standards that Obama put in.

If you want to discuss a topic, discuss it. I'm never going to engage with that data dump of copy and paste, I don't care where its from.

But that's what you just did. Admit it. Trump's promises to make Mexico pay for the wall was slowed because of Democrat foot-dragging - yet he went around them and got Mexico to pay in kind in trade concessions and providing Mexican soldiers to patrol on their side of the wall. He explains it in depth in almost every rally he gives, yet you've never heard it or understood it at all.

I don't take Trump's word for Trump's accomplishments. Just like I don't take his word that he is a "stable genius". How did the Democrats prevent Trump from getting Mexico to pay for the wall? They prevented him from wasting tax payer money on it. Last time I checked Republicans had full control of the house and senate for the first two years of Trump's term and budget reconciliation (which the wall could be built under isn't part of the filibuster). Mexico's trade "concessions" had nothing to do with the wall or did anything to get direct payments to the American government for construction of a wall that took only a few months to be repeatedly breached. I'm sure all the American service men whose base housing, schools, and facilities weren't upgraded are really happy that Trump took 4 billion from them to put towards his pet project that provides no safety or benefit to the country.

Quote
I challenge you to look at that "data dump" you are so frightened of. Item after item. Pure unchallengeable metrics that you cannot argue out of existence. You especially missed all those things that Trump accomplished that the plagiarist, Biden, said he did.

How about a sample of your own verity? Explain the one statement that the average American family saved $2,500 a year in lower electric bills and lower prices at the gas pump.

Okay what is the source of $2,500 a year in lower electric bills and gas prices? I will look at any single item or two you want to discuss. I'm not going to play whack-a-mole from a giant list you just pasted in from somewhere else. Would you defend Trump as a honest man if I posted the 10,000 lies the Washington Post accumulated? Or would you want me to identify lies I thought were important and substantive (because many on the list of lies aren't either).
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on May 12, 2022, 09:01:42 PM
...Would you defend Trump as a honest man if I posted the 10,000 lies the Washington Post accumulated? Or would you want me to identify lies I thought were important and substantive (because many on the list of lies aren't either).

Definitely. I can do so because I vetted those disinformational "lies" as they were made. Most are the same accusations over and over, and when totally refuted were added as another lie because they differed from the disinformation.

Here is what you back:
In four years, President Trump made 30,573 false or misleading claims

(Sorry, this post has been removed by the moderators of r/politics.
Moderators remove posts from feeds for a variety of reasons, including keeping communities safe, civil, and true to their purpose.)
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on May 13, 2022, 07:32:22 PM
https://www.yahoo.com/news/judge-refuses-drop-elections-suit-224040390.html
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: TheDrake on May 18, 2022, 09:32:45 AM
Mixed bag for Mr. Trump in the primaries. Cawthorn, known for weapons violations, bizarre claims about cocaine orgies, and his endorsement by Trump, has lost. The great and powerful Oz appears slightly ahead, but there will be recounts. Nobody seems to be concerned about fraud in those mail-in ballots or extended counting. Must be because all Republicans are above reproach, well except for the ones who have been caught committing fraud.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on May 20, 2022, 01:56:39 PM
He paid the fine.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-pays-110k-fine-must-170549761.html
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on May 24, 2022, 08:57:37 AM
So how many points will Perdue loose by today?  Trumps record in opposed primarys is not all that great. He had a win in Ohio and it is a tie so far in PA. He lost big in NE and lost a close one with Cawthorn in NC and will loose big again today in GA.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on May 25, 2022, 08:02:52 AM
So Trump's candidates in GA lost by even more than was expected.  Now the question is will he support Kemp against Abrams.  Or course not. Trump is all about personal loyalty and nothing else.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: yossarian22c on May 26, 2022, 05:05:20 PM
https://www.npr.org/2022/05/26/1101503129/trump-ordered-to-testify-new-york-investigation (https://www.npr.org/2022/05/26/1101503129/trump-ordered-to-testify-new-york-investigation)

Quote
Former President Donald Trump must answer questions under oath in New York state's civil investigation into his business practices, a state appeals court ruled Thursday.

Trump loses in court again.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: TheDrake on May 27, 2022, 08:24:30 AM
Quote
Last summer, spurred by evidence uncovered in James' civil investigation, the Manhattan district attorney's office charged the Trump Organization and its longtime finance chief, Allen Weisselberg, with tax fraud, alleging he collected more than $1.7 million in off-the-books compensation. Weisselberg and the company have pleaded not guilty.

While we're on the subject, does anyone think Alan didn't get a bunch of shady money? Even trump's supporters seem to be using the selective prosecution argument, not the it didn't happen argument.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: TheDrake on May 31, 2022, 12:27:34 PM
Quote
A federal jury found Michael Sussmann, a lawyer for Democrats including the Hillary Clinton presidential campaign, not guilty of lying to the FBI when he brought them allegations against Donald Trump during the 2016 presidential race.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on May 31, 2022, 12:31:44 PM
Just more proof of the Deep State. Soros and Gates bought off the jury, the judge, the defense lawyer, the bailiff and the janitor.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on May 31, 2022, 12:38:17 PM
This whole thread would be better named as, "Trump wins almost all the time - but loses to Democrat bias." How hard is it to realize the 2-1/2 years of attacking a sitting President was all about sedition, if not outright treason?
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: TheDrake on May 31, 2022, 12:49:33 PM
A Trump wins again thread would be entertaining. I wonder what kind of strange contortions would be necessary. I wonder how democrat bias has managed to make trumps endorsed Republicans in republican primaries lose
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on May 31, 2022, 12:52:36 PM
Because in GA Purdue actually won, if you get rid of the bogus votes of people that voted for Kemp. Same for Cawthorn and all of the others Trump supported and lost. They only lost because of cheating by the other side.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: TheDrake on May 31, 2022, 01:50:56 PM
Secret unverified wins are the best kind! If it wasn't for the democrats, Trump would have won the indy 500.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on May 31, 2022, 03:34:49 PM
And I was prophetic.

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/trump-pushes-bogus-article-claiming-185804082.html

No one gets 74% of the vote it says. Unless it is his guy. Then it is fine.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on May 31, 2022, 07:25:52 PM
Not directly Trump losing but it was inspired by him. So a loss for him.

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/supreme-court-blocks-texas-law-targeting-social-media-companies-212601246.html
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on June 01, 2022, 08:50:26 AM
But Trumps guy Herschel Walker won by 55 points. No one wins by 55 points. Must be massive fraud.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Wayward Son on June 01, 2022, 11:35:36 AM
When he heard that Michael Sussmann was acquitted of lying to the FBI, which supposedly caused him to be illegally surveilled, Trump reacted with his usual equanimity (https://www.mediaite.com/news/trump-rages-about-clinton-lawyer-sussmann-not-guilty-verdict-our-country-is-going-to-hell-enjoy-your-day/):

Quote
Our Legal System is CORRUPT, our Judges (and Justices!) are highly partisan, compromised or just plain scared, our Borders are OPEN, our Elections are Rigged, Inflation is RAMPANT, gas prices and food costs are “through the roof,” our Military “Leadership” is Woke, our Country is going to HELL, and Michael Sussmann is not guilty. How’s everything else doing? Enjoy your day!!!

He sounds like one of those angry old men from The Villages who chases kids off his lawn.  Did Trump recently move from Mar-A-Lago?  ???
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on June 01, 2022, 11:54:10 AM
If things do not go my way, it is not because I am wrong, it is the other guys fault. All of the evidence points to my being wrong but my ego will not allow me to admit that.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on June 01, 2022, 12:05:45 PM
Not directly Trump losing but it was inspired by him. So a loss for him.

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/supreme-court-blocks-texas-law-targeting-social-media-companies-212601246.html

No, not a loss for Trump ` just an indication of how the Left uses laws and rules designed for something else to be high-jacked and abused. ...Not a loss - because the attention is no longer hidden. The main charge is that these media monopolies are targeting Conservative posters. We all, as well as they, know that to be true. Does anyone disagree? In a Free Enterprise system, the answer is for the marketplace to work its magic. It will fix itself, but it will take time.

Pelosi will soon be out. Since the Democrats, once they gained power, used every opportunity they could muster to demonize and punish conservatives and Libertarians - The new majority may well justifiably dispense with comity and put some of the worst Democrats where they belong. It would do the nation a world of good to see Hillary and all her friends in orange jumpsuits being perp-walked to the short bus. However; if all the dirty Dems are indicted and found guilty, we may need a whole fleet of full-sized prison buses to take them away.

Look. You all know what Sussman did, and that Hillary was driving it. No one thinks the judge, whose wife was the lawyer for the hard-hearted Hannah of the FBI, made an honest legal decision. The next few Hoffman decisions won't be in DC.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on June 01, 2022, 12:10:51 PM
If things do not go my way, it is not because I am wrong, it is the other guys fault. All of the evidence points to my being wrong but my ego will not allow me to admit that.

Y'know what's funny about your post? You meant it as an ironic jab at Trump - but it was totally true because you applied it to yourself.

Biden is beside himself because his numbers are below Trump's - no matter how hard the media tries to force it.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on June 01, 2022, 12:17:11 PM
That's right, if the decision is something you don't like, they were evil/corrupt.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on June 01, 2022, 12:20:40 PM
When he heard that Michael Sussmann was acquitted of lying to the FBI, which supposedly caused him to be illegally surveilled, Trump reacted with his usual equanimity (https://www.mediaite.com/news/trump-rages-about-clinton-lawyer-sussmann-not-guilty-verdict-our-country-is-going-to-hell-enjoy-your-day/):

Quote
Our Legal System is CORRUPT, our Judges (and Justices!) are highly partisan, compromised or just plain scared, our Borders are OPEN, our Elections are Rigged, Inflation is RAMPANT, gas prices and food costs are “through the roof,” our Military “Leadership” is Woke, our Country is going to HELL, and Michael Sussmann is not guilty. How’s everything else doing? Enjoy your day!!!

He sounds like one of those angry old men from The Villages who chases kids off his lawn.  Did Trump recently move from Mar-A-Lago?  ???

How timely. Biden was just described last night, that way. In reaction to his whining about his staff cleaning up his messes, he was described as an old man chasing kids off his lawn.

In Trump's defense. We all know Sussman was instrumental in Hillary's plan to overthrow a legally elect6ed President. In lieu of a coup d'etat, she settled for sedition and treason. We also know the proceedings with a corrupt judge who should have recused himself and a Sussman-friendly DC jury reached an incorrect verdict.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on June 01, 2022, 12:27:30 PM
We all do not know that. We trust in the system. That is one of Trump's greatest crimes against America, undermining the trust in the system. For Trump, if things do not go his way, it is not that he is wrong, it is that the system is corrupt.  He has poisoned American's beliefs in ourselves for his own personal gain.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: yossarian22c on June 01, 2022, 12:27:44 PM
...
In Trump's defense. We all know Sussman was instrumental in Hillary's plan to overthrow a legally elect6ed President. In lieu of a coup d'etat, she settled for sedition and treason. We also know the proceedings with a corrupt judge who should have recused himself and a Sussman-friendly DC jury reached an incorrect verdict.

You have to quit using "we all know" to describe your private evidence free opinions that are shared by no one here.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: TheDrake on June 01, 2022, 12:59:23 PM
...
In Trump's defense. We all know Sussman was instrumental in Hillary's plan to overthrow a legally elect6ed President. In lieu of a coup d'etat, she settled for sedition and treason. We also know the proceedings with a corrupt judge who should have recused himself and a Sussman-friendly DC jury reached an incorrect verdict.

You have to quit using "we all know" to describe your private evidence free opinions that are shared by no one here.

It's the royal 'we'?
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on June 03, 2022, 10:48:52 AM
...
In Trump's defense. We all know Sussman was instrumental in Hillary's plan to overthrow a legally elect6ed President. In lieu of a coup d'etat, she settled for sedition and treason. We also know the proceedings with a corrupt judge who should have recused himself and a Sussman-friendly DC jury reached an incorrect verdict.

You have to quit using "we all know" to describe your private evidence free opinions that are shared by no one here.

It's the royal 'we'?

On the contrary. It is generally known by the majority of the people what has happened here. Trump was railroaded by Hillary and the Democrats, including the left-leaning Democrat apologists here in this forum. By any honest person, one cannot deny that the Russian collusion was made up out of whole cloth by Hillary and her people, and then abetted by the Clinton-aligned staff in the top floors of Justice. There is no longer any argument of that. The plan is how to outlast the guilt - not to plead innocence.

Hillary's people, including the judge in Sussman's case, want to believe that Sussman was not working on Hillary's behalf for claiming a non-existent Trump link to Alfabank, which he then billed for. Then they want to claim that Sussman did not get the go-ahead by Hillary to do so, even though we have the testimony from her own chief of staff that she did so. Weasels will waffle and say it was an innocent mistake that lasted two-and-a-half years and cost the country millions of dollars, several unsubstantiated impeachments, and systematic blocking of everything Trump was trying to accomplish. This has been called, by the best historians (not just the Clinton apologists) as the single worst example of political malfeasance, and failed coup d'etat, in the history of the country - yet it is still being defended in this forum.

Where are the heartfelt apologies?
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on June 03, 2022, 10:54:11 AM
William has both CDS and ODS.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: yossarian22c on June 03, 2022, 11:27:06 AM
...
On the contrary. It is generally known by the majority of the people what has happened here. Trump was railroaded by Hillary and the Democrats, including the left-leaning Democrat apologists here in this forum. By any honest person, one cannot deny that the Russian collusion was made up out of whole cloth by Hillary and her people, and then abetted by the Clinton-aligned staff in the top floors of Justice. There is no longer any argument of that. The plan is how to outlast the guilt - not to plead innocence.

Russia hacked the DNC and leaked emails. Trump's campaign manager and son met with people claiming to have dirt on Clinton from Russia. It wasn't made up out of whole clothe.

Quote
Hillary's people, including the judge in Sussman's case, want to believe that Sussman was not working on Hillary's behalf for claiming a non-existent Trump link to Alfabank, which he then billed for. Then they want to claim that Sussman did not get the go-ahead by Hillary to do so, even though we have the testimony from her own chief of staff that she did so.

The judge didn't find him not guilty that was the jury. I guess in your world they are all "Hillary's people" too?

Quote
Weasels will waffle and say it was an innocent mistake that lasted two-and-a-half years and cost the country millions of dollars, several unsubstantiated impeachments, and systematic blocking of everything Trump was trying to accomplish. This has been called, by the best historians (not just the Clinton apologists) as the single worst example of political malfeasance, and failed coup d'etat, in the history of the country - yet it is still being defended in this forum.

Where are the heartfelt apologies?

Who are the "best historians"?

Neither impeachment had anything to do with the Muller investigation. Why do you think they are related?
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on June 03, 2022, 06:07:06 PM
...
On the contrary. It is generally known by the majority of the people what has happened here. Trump was railroaded by Hillary and the Democrats, including the left-leaning Democrat apologists here in this forum. By any honest person, one cannot deny that the Russian collusion was made up out of whole cloth by Hillary and her people, and then abetted by the Clinton-aligned staff in the top floors of Justice. There is no longer any argument of that. The plan is how to outlast the guilt - not to plead innocence.

Russia hacked the DNC and leaked emails. Trump's campaign manager and son met with people claiming to have dirt on Clinton from Russia. It wasn't made up out of whole clothe.

No. People met with Trump's son claiming some unannounced pertinent info. When they did not do what they said they would, the meeting was cut short with all the Trump people wondering what the Hell these people were doing wasting their time. It was Hillary's people who worked with and paid for Russian made-up info they could try to use against Trump. All that stuff was found to be lies and disinformation. Take the time to educate yourself on what is now known - not what the complicit media pedaled four years ago.

Hillary's people, including the judge in Sussman's case, want to believe that Sussman was not working on Hillary's behalf for claiming a non-existent Trump link to Alfabank, which he then billed for. Then they want to claim that Sussman did not get the go-ahead by Hillary to do so, even though we have the testimony from her own chief of staff that she did so.

The judge didn't find him not guilty that was the jury. I guess in your world they are all "Hillary's people" too?

Again, Clinton apologist POV. The Judge and many in the jury were directly connected to Hillary and Sussman. We know Sussman did what was proven. The Jury tried to equate their unfounded lenience with Sussman skating when Durham nailed him.

dollars, several unsubstantiated impeachments, and systematic blocking of everything Trump was trying to accomplish. This has been called, by the best historians (not just the Clinton apologists) as the single worst example of political malfeasance, and failed coup d'etat, in the history of the country - yet it is still being defended in this forum.

Where are the heartfelt apologies?

Who are the "best historians"?

Neither impeachment had anything to do with the Muller investigation. Why do you think they are related?

Evidently, the historians that are honest and unbiased. The Impeachments were not caused by any action by Trump - only alleged misconduct which has been completely found to be erroneous. Mueller spent millions and basically exonerated Trump of all made-up charges.

Still waiting for the heartfelt apologies. You are just embarrassing yourselves. You do know your words are going to be out there for years as more and more disinformation that you cling to will be even more firmly debunked.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: yossarian22c on June 03, 2022, 06:31:15 PM

Quote
The judge didn't find him not guilty that was the jury. I guess in your world they are all "Hillary's people" too?

Again, Clinton apologist POV. The Judge and many in the jury were directly connected to Hillary and Sussman. We know Sussman did what was proven. The Jury tried to equate their unfounded lenience with Sussman skating when Durham nailed him.


The Jury is connected to Sussman?!? Beyond the fact no one knows who is on the jury, you just made the case for Durham being the most inept prosecutor in history. You have to ask yourself why you believe such things. What evidence convinced you the jury had ties to the defendant. That is an extraordinary claim. Needs some evidence, unless you just mean some members of the jury were democrats.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: yossarian22c on June 03, 2022, 06:35:04 PM
Who are the "best historians"?

Neither impeachment had anything to do with the Muller investigation. Why do you think they are related?

Evidently, the historians that are honest and unbiased. The Impeachments were not caused by any action by Trump - only alleged misconduct which has been completely found to be erroneous. Mueller spent millions and basically exonerated Trump of all made-up charges.

Still waiting for the heartfelt apologies. You are just embarrassing yourselves. You do know your words are going to be out there for years as more and more disinformation that you cling to will be even more firmly debunked.

Can you name one of these historians, so I can know who is the best?

Do you realize neither impeachment had anything to do with the Mueller investigation? Extorting Ukraine and January 6th. Those are the reasons for the impeachments.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on June 03, 2022, 07:14:05 PM
Who are the "best historians"?

Neither impeachment had anything to do with the Muller investigation. Why do you think they are related?

Evidently, the historians that are honest and unbiased. The Impeachments were not caused by any action by Trump - only alleged misconduct which has been completely found to be erroneous. Mueller spent millions and basically exonerated Trump of all made-up charges.

Still waiting for the heartfelt apologies. You are just embarrassing yourselves. You do know your words are going to be out there for years as more and more disinformation that you cling to will be even more firmly debunked.

Can you name one of these historians, so I can know who is the best?

Do you realize neither impeachment had anything to do with the Mueller investigation? Extorting Ukraine and January 6th. Those are the reasons for the impeachments.

You've got to be kidding. One impeachment was for threatening The Ukraine to investigate Hunter Biden - who we all know now was a very compromised individual., and whose father lied about it. The other one was for Jan 6, blaming him for the legal demonstration that got compromised when Pelosi's security invited and ushered people into the Capital Building. One protestor was killed by one of Pelosi's security, but no protestor hurt anyone, although Pelosi and Schumer lied about a policeman being hit by a fire extinguisher and killed. The incursion into the Capital was legal because we have videos of officers ushering and inviting them into it. The Doctrine of Laches says that made all incursions legal. There is more evidence for false actors trying to "dirty-up" the march than any Trump-supporter getting out of line.

The Ukraine was the stated reason for the first Impeachment, and Mueller was the factor that attacked his image for both. Unfounded accusations were factored in because Trump was believed to be dirty when he wasn't. Video showed Trump telling protestors to be safe and legal, yet the unfounded accusations produced a party-line verdict. Both impeachments will be lifted before too long. It was just more of the sedition and treason the Democrats exhibited.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on June 03, 2022, 07:49:17 PM
Once again William is proving my point.  Any proceeding that does not go Trump's way was not because he was wrong but because it was corrupt. This is Trump's most dangerous poison to American Society. Time and  time again Trump loses, even in front of Trump and Republican appointed judges and he still claims that it was rigged against him.

This one thing is the most evil thing Trump has done against the American Dream.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on June 03, 2022, 09:34:36 PM
...The Jury is connected to Sussman?!? Beyond the fact no one knows who is on the jury, you just made the case for Durham being the most inept prosecutor in history. You have to ask yourself why you believe such things. What evidence convinced you the jury had ties to the defendant. That is an extraordinary claim. Needs some evidence, unless you just mean some members of the jury were democrats.

No, you made the case for being ignorant of more than your Left-leaning, Never-Trumper doctrinal pejorative spin.

Just so you know, like those of us who have followed more than your disinformation, before the case was brought Durham had acknowledged that since Sussmann had to be tried in DC, the jury would probably be anti-Trump. The Law said Sussmann had to be tried in the city where the crime was committed, so that meant in DC. DC is 91% Democrat, and the prosecution is only allowed six disqualifications, while the defense gets ten - which wiped out any jurists with a chance of being impartial. Judge Cooper is a deeply embedded Democrat, appointed by Obama and connected to the party. He was married by Merrick Garland, and his wife represented Lisa Page. He admitted he worked with Sussmann in the DOJ. Cooper disallowed the most flagrant conflicts which should not need a challenge. He let in the mother of a player on Sussmann's daughter's team, and anyone who donated to Hillary. Durham assumed the fix was in here, but addressed this by stating his next indictments will not be heard in DC.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on June 03, 2022, 09:44:13 PM
Once again William is proving my point.  Any proceeding that does not go Trump's way was not because he was wrong but because it was corrupt. This is Trump's most dangerous poison to American Society. Time and  time again Trump loses, even in front of Trump and Republican appointed judges and he still claims that it was rigged against him.

This one thing is the most evil thing Trump has done against the American Dream.

Once again, msquared proves his inability to think without his Leftist blinders on. Anyone who resists his bullying and narcissistic attacks is evil. Why didn't he address Christopher Cooper's refusal to recuse himself as a Democrat (Hillary) apologist? Almost any good GOP judge would have done so to avoid the appearance of impropriety. To a dyed-in-the-wool Democrat functionary, the ends always justifies the means.

It's sad, not funny that Trump is the one politician supporting the American Dream - yet msquared is 180° out of whack. As I pointed out earlier, Trump has won over and over again - in spite of everything the seditious Democrats have done
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: TheDrake on June 03, 2022, 11:36:49 PM
QAnon tears of frustration (https://tonyortega.org/2022/06/01/q-patriots-in-a-tailspin-after-3-year-durham-probes-first-case-ends-in-acquittal/)

Follow the twisted logic. If Sussman had been convicted, then that meant the FBI was acting in good faith so he threw the case in order to target the FBI for knowing Sussman was working for Hillary.

Not all the WWG1WGA crowd is satisfied with that explanation as to why Durham failed.

As for the judge? You know that Durham didn't push for his recusal. Must have been part of his master plan to lose on purpose. Meanwhile, no information on what he did to supposedly influence the trial. No complaints about ruling evidence in or out, no complaints about witness handling, no unusual jury instructions. But I'm not surprised your upset, wm, when you believe that just knowing a democrat means you're incorrigibly biased. Every Obama and Clinton appointee is amoral trying to sway the outcome of every case to advance their nefarious cause.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on June 04, 2022, 08:02:33 AM
Here is the difference.  I am not a Hillary supporter.  I could not care less if she is charged, tried, found guilty and goes to jail for a crime she committed.  However, it has been 3 years and the best they could find is that 1 lawyer who represented her, and other clients, may have lied to the FBI (now found innocent of the charge).

Wm, you and your group would throw then all in jail with out a trial. Trump's own words "lock her up".  Trump has poisoned you against the system.  Like I said that is his greatest sin.

I am not a democrat. I am a good Republican but not a Trumpist. But Trump has brought out the worst side of the conservative movement. Racism, bigotry, hatred.  I do not hate Trump. I pity him.  I hate what he has done to the Party I grew up with and what he has done to American Society.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on June 04, 2022, 11:25:15 AM
QAnon tears of frustration (https://tonyortega.org/2022/06/01/q-patriots-in-a-tailspin-after-3-year-durham-probes-first-case-ends-in-acquittal/)

Follow the twisted logic. If Sussman had been convicted, then that meant the FBI was acting in good faith so he threw the case in order to target the FBI for knowing Sussman was working for Hillary.

Not all the WWG1WGA crowd is satisfied with that explanation as to why Durham failed.

I explained why the Cooper Court rescued Sussmann and Hillary. There is no controversy. Evidently, Durham knew the fix would be in for a trial in DC. He did the spadework for future cases out of DC. What he did do is get Hillary legally connected to the media getting the Steel Dosier and the Alfabank disinformation.

As for the judge? You know that Durham didn't push for his recusal. Must have been part of his master plan to lose on purpose. Meanwhile, no information on what he did to supposedly influence the trial. No complaints about ruling evidence in or out, no complaints about witness handling, no unusual jury instructions. But I'm not surprised your upset, wm, when you believe that just knowing a democrat means you're incorrigibly biased. Every Obama and Clinton appointee is amoral trying to sway the outcome of every case to advance their nefarious cause.

Yes, Durham did not ask for the Judge's recusal. This may have had something to do with the rules in DC. He was fighting the clock for other indictments, which I thought was a poor decision. It may be that if he really wants justice, he may have been resigned to a fixed trial in DC, so kept the cases independent to concentrate on the next ones. However; Mook's testimony is now written in the lawbooks, so Hillary is now a target.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on June 04, 2022, 11:58:01 AM
Here is the difference.  I am not a Hillary supporter.  I could not care less if she is charged, tried, found guilty and goes to jail for a crime she committed.  However, it has been 3 years and the best they could find is that 1 lawyer who represented her, and other clients, may have lied to the FBI (now found innocent of the charge).

No. You are a Never-Trumper - a worse label than being a Democrat. If you bought into the years-long scandalous lies and straw-man construction of an anti-Trump, then that is your problem. I am happy to see the good - not obsess on incorrect conjecture that you accepted in the face of truth dispelling what you religiously believe..

Wm, you and your group would throw then all in jail with out a trial. Trump's own words "lock her up".  Trump has poisoned you against the system.  Like I said that is his greatest sin.

Again you use your own bias and act like your sin belongs to anyone who challenges your beliefs. Like I said: "religiously." No one I know would throw anyone in jail without a trial. However; you consistently allow your protected "saints" from true justice. Hillary should already be serving time. Comey listed her transgressions with eMails- then exonerated her by saying no prosecutor would go after her because there is no proof of intent. I already pointed out chapter and verse of the laws she violated - which specifically said intent does not invalidate her guilt. People yell, "Lock her up!" because they know she should already be in an orange jumpsuit and proving to the nation that nobody is above the law. There is a probability that the top Dems getting away with lies, disinformation, sedition, and treason allowed all the lower-level Dems in all the key states to have so obviously scammed the 2020 elections without fear of consequences. It's taken awhile, but more and more tainted elections have been proved and the win given to the true winners. Look it up. There's a new one every day.

I am not a democrat. I am a good Republican but not a Trumpist. But Trump has brought out the worst side of the conservative movement. Racism, bigotry, hatred.  I do not hate Trump. I pity him.  I hate what he has done to the Party I grew up with and what he has done to American Society.

Once again, no. There are no Trumpists. There are only those who reject the Never-Trumpers, like you, who lost their way. I have never claimed to be a Republican, but you never noticed that. You believe disinformation, and when confronted with truth, won't accept it, but instead, attack the messenger. Do your own homework and stop mirroring the latest DNC talking points, while claiming your neutrality. If being a "good" Republican in your mind means demeaning the most successful and honorable President in the history of our country, then you are only a know-nothing of the Washington Swamp. You are a Never-Trumper. Look what Liz Cheney bought herself with her similar idiocy. Tell us about Hillary and Joe. To you, do they still walk on water? How about OAC, Schiff, Comey, Hillary, and the rest?
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Tom on June 04, 2022, 01:16:32 PM
Your staggering lack of self-awareness is less amusing when it's causing you to insult people, William.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Crunch on June 04, 2022, 01:27:14 PM
Your staggering lack of self-awareness is less amusing when it's causing you to insult people, William.

Sick burn, bro. I bet you’re the shiznet at recess.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Tom on June 04, 2022, 01:44:51 PM
I don't want you to get the impression that I'm taking your criticism seriously, Crunch, because I know you're intellectually dishonest in all your interactions here, but I do want to acknowledge that I think William sincerely does not recognize how far his impressions deviate from reality.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on June 04, 2022, 02:43:18 PM
I don't want you to get the impression that I'm taking your criticism seriously, Crunch, because I know you're intellectually dishonest in all your interactions here, but I do want to acknowledge that I think William sincerely does not recognize how far his impressions deviate from reality.

Actually, Tom - it is an observable trait in this forum for the Never-Trumpers, who are the haters, to point at their victims as the bullies. If one stands up for oneself and posits facts and truths that the bullies proclaim as dealt with and proved wrong (when they're not), then that person is castigated.

I have seen almost every Leftist here, including Never-Trumpers use the bully fallacy: Laughter by Intimidation. Representing the advocate as being out of step with "right-thinking people" to the point where everyone laughs at your ridiculous viewpoint. No rebuttal is offered - just ridicule the messenger.

I say most people know Hillary is guilty of several crimes. I am not met with proof of innocence or challenges to the codes she provably violated, nor shown any error in basic facts, just called names. The only real answer to that they may use is to call most people too stupid to know she broke the law. The law was broken. That is not in dispute. But that is never admitted to. The next step? Laughter by Intimidation. They don't seem to understand that using that fallacy is a indication to indict themselves.

Notice the thrust is against how far "impressions deviate from reality." Two mistakes in that. Facts not in dispute are not merely "impressions." The other mistake is for "Reality" to be subjective for them to decide upon.

Look, Judge Christopher Cooper far transgresses the appearance of impropriety. The facts are clear: he did work with Sussmann in the DOJ. His wife defended Lisa Page. Cooper is an acknowledged and self-admitted Democrat functionary. Merrick Garland married him. Does anyone here think that not excluding a prospect for the jury from the panel because she and Sussmann are both parents on the same sports team is beyond the pale? Can a jury prospect who contributed money to the group under scrutiny be an acceptable juror? According to Tom and others here, what impressions deviate from reality?

You see the reality is that in DC, Democrats are the vast (91%) majority and have a history of subscribing to the idea that the ends justify the means. When the Judge doesn't even try to look fair in establishing a jury, then the fix is in, isn't it?
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Tom on June 04, 2022, 02:52:22 PM
I'm genuinely not trying to intimidate you, for what it's worth. I think you're delusional. There is almost nothing you say, William, which is remotely true; some elements of your statements briefly dance along the edge of fact, but rarely intersect with it and even more rarely are relevant to what you think you're proving. (The whole "Judge Cooper knows people" bit, for example, only works consistently if you also believe that Scalia and Thomas should recuse themselves from almost all election decisions.) You're not the only poster here to which that applies, but I think you're the only one who believes what he says at all times. And that makes me sad, because you're emotionally committed to your inputs enough that I'm not under the impression that chatting with some Internet rando is going to help you.

If you would honestly like me to address why the things you said in the last post do not in fact constitute evidence of the reality you're asserting, I'll do so. But I'm not under the impression that you're even able to question your assumptions, so I'm reluctant to do so; as I've gotten older, I've developed less patience with rhetorical wanking, and I'm afraid that's all it would be. I don't need to demonstrate your wrongness to other people, and I'm almost entirely sure I wouldn't be able to demonstrate it to you, so all I had to say in the first place was "please don't insult other people based on your flawed understanding of reality, which gives you an unrealistic read on their motivations."
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Crunch on June 04, 2022, 04:47:50 PM
I don't want you to get the impression that I'm taking your criticism seriously, Crunch, because I know you're intellectually dishonest in all your interactions here, but I do want to acknowledge that I think William sincerely does not recognize how far his impressions deviate from reality.

Riiiiiiggghht.  Ok, bro
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on June 06, 2022, 03:18:24 PM
I'm genuinely not trying to intimidate you, for what it's worth. I think you're delusional. There is almost nothing you say, William, which is remotely true; some elements of your statements briefly dance along the edge of fact, but rarely intersect with it and even more rarely are relevant to what you think you're proving. (The whole "Judge Cooper knows people" bit, for example, only works consistently if you also believe that Scalia and Thomas should recuse themselves from almost all election decisions.) You're not the only poster here to which that applies, but I think you're the only one who believes what he says at all times. And that makes me sad, because you're emotionally committed to your inputs enough that I'm not under the impression that chatting with some Internet rando is going to help you.

If you would honestly like me to address why the things you said in the last post do not in fact constitute evidence of the reality you're asserting, I'll do so. But I'm not under the impression that you're even able to question your assumptions, so I'm reluctant to do so; as I've gotten older, I've developed less patience with rhetorical wanking, and I'm afraid that's all it would be. I don't need to demonstrate your wrongness to other people, and I'm almost entirely sure I wouldn't be able to demonstrate it to you, so all I had to say in the first place was "please don't insult other people based on your flawed understanding of reality, which gives you an unrealistic read on their motivations."

You are guilty of illogical pronouncements of your mental superiority. Hillary's crimes were not "rhetorcial wanking" - they were proved facts.

These laws were broken, not bent:
Quote
UNAUTHORIZED REMOVAL AND RETENTION OF CLASSIFIED DOCUMENTS OR MATERIAL
18 U.S.C. § 1924 Class: A misdemeanor
Possible penalty: imprisonment for 1 year and/or $100,000 fine
"Knowingly removing materials containing classified information of the United States with the intent to retain said info at an unauthorized location without the ability to do so."

GATHERING, TRANSMITTING OR LOSING DEFENSE INFORMATION
18 U.S.C. § 793 Class: Felony
Possible penalty: imprisonment for 10 years and/or $250,000 fine
"Allowing (by means of gross negligence) any document relating to the national defense to be removed from its proper place of custody or destroyed -or- willfully retaining unauthorized documents relating to national defense and failing to deliver them to the United States employee entitled to receive them -or- failure to report that unauthorized documents relating to national defense were removed from their proper place of custody or destroyed."

CONCEALING, REMOVAL, OR MUTILATION GENERALLY
18 U.S.C. § 2071 Class: Felony
Possible penalty: imprisonment of no more than 3 years, a fine, or both
"Whoever, having the custody of any such record, proceeding, map, book, document, paper, or other thing, willfully and unlawfully conceals, removes, mutilates, obliterates, falsifies, or destroys the same."

____________________________________

Hillary Clinton recklessly discussed, in emails hosted on her private server, an Iranian nuclear scientist who was executed by Iran for treason.
On "Face the Nation." Cotton was speaking about Shahram Amiri, who gave information to the U.S. about Iran's nuclear program.

Iran confirmed on Sunday that Amiri had been hanged for treason. He was convicted of spying charges in a death sentence case that was upheld on appeal, according to the Associated Press.

"This person who had access to the country's secret and classified information had been linked to our hostile and No. 1 enemy, America, the Great Satan" a spokesman for the Iranian judiciary said. "He provided the enemy with vital and secret information of the country."

If you research these codes, there is no get out of jail free card because of intent. She did it. She intended to do it. And she lied about doing it. Even if it was proved she was too stupid not to intend to break the law - the law says guilt is not dependent on intent. Just doing it is a felony.

BTW, you shouldn't be sad because I reject your partisan disinformation. Unlike you, I've done the work. What I said is accurate. And almost everything you have stated over the months have been proved wrong.

All your mindless lecturing about Dinesh D'Souza being a "proven" liar has been proved false. I guess you missed the guilty pleas of those mules and their providers of faked ballots. The 2,000 Mules documentary has been proved accurate. even the conjecture on final numbers was made with the minimum guesstimates. The actual numbers are far beyond the numbers necessary to overthrow the 2020 vote-scamming. This is not conjecture, nor opinion. Facts are easy to fight. You just ignore them and insult the messenger. We also have official confirmation that the counting computer systems have been hacked. The earlier protestations that the Dominion voting machines could not be hacked has been walked back. Mike Lindell is due for a huge windfall, if he decides to go after his lying detractors. They tried your tactic to defame the messenger and got caught. 

Respond again, and dig your hole deeper. Apologies appreciated.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Tom on June 06, 2022, 03:29:25 PM
Quote
Hillary's crimes were not "rhetorcial wanking"
You misunderstand. I was saying that I was reluctant to engage you because I am not under the impression that you are likely to be swayed by conversation, so the only reason to do so would be "rhetorical wanking" -- i.e. just arguing with you for the enjoyment of argument, and/or to demonstrate my superiority to a hypothetical audience.

It should be noted that everything you claim is "proven" in your post above is not in fact proven. But I am not under the impression that you can be convinced of this; I believe you are, in your delusions, quite immune to external demonstration of your wrongness. Please understand that this is the "rhetorical wanking" to which I referred; I know you aren't going to be receptive to actual conversation, because you have built walls around your brain to prevent anything from penetrating.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: yossarian22c on June 06, 2022, 03:31:28 PM
...
All your mindless lecturing about Dinesh D'Souza being a "proven" liar has been proved false. I guess you missed the guilty pleas of those mules and their providers of faked ballots. The 2,000 Mules documentary has been proved accurate. even the conjecture on final numbers was made with the minimum guesstimates. The actual numbers are far beyond the numbers necessary to overthrow the 2020 vote-scamming. This is not conjecture, nor opinion. Facts are easy to fight. You just ignore them and insult the messenger. We also have official confirmation that the counting computer systems have been hacked. The earlier protestations that the Dominion voting machines could not be hacked has been walked back. Mike Lindell is due for a huge windfall, if he decides to go after his lying detractors. They tried your tactic to defame the messenger and got caught. 

Respond again, and dig your hole deeper. Apologies appreciated.

Who has pled guilty? What crime did they plead guilty too? Where did they commit the fraud?

What in the documentary has been independently verified?

What official confirmation do you have that voting machines were hacked? In which state, county, precinct did the hacking occur?

No one ever claimed Dominion machines were unhackable. We claimed there was no evidence they were hacked during the election in 2020.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: yossarian22c on June 06, 2022, 03:35:49 PM
I don't want you to get the impression that I'm taking your criticism seriously, Crunch, because I know you're intellectually dishonest in all your interactions here, but I do want to acknowledge that I think William sincerely does not recognize how far his impressions deviate from reality.

Riiiiiiggghht.  Ok, bro

Its amazing you how consistently you have played the right wing character you've created over the years. Thought you would eventually get bored of it. Turns out you only get bored of your user names.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on June 14, 2022, 04:49:32 PM
Trump has to testify in NY.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/ny-high-court-nixes-trump-195305325.html

Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on June 15, 2022, 02:26:17 PM
The WI investigator who found no fraud but still did not like the results, and who has not turned over his work even though there are open record laws on the books in WI gets slammed by a judge.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/wisconsin-election-investigator-fined-2k-164950744.html
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on June 15, 2022, 02:37:14 PM
And Bannon takes a hit on his contempt charge

https://www.yahoo.com/news/bannon-offers-absurd-legal-argument-161756574.html
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on June 16, 2022, 12:57:06 PM
More bad new for Trump in NY.

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/real-estate-firm-must-comply-162142681.html
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: TheDrake on June 16, 2022, 03:44:43 PM
More bad new for Trump in NY.

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/real-estate-firm-must-comply-162142681.html

With any luck they'll get a chance to go after all the other people they inflated assessments for. Because I guarantee they didn't do this just for Trump.

They keep attempting to declare the reason for the probe as political. As opposed to just saying, "We didn't do that, here's all our notes and information, see for yourself."
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on June 16, 2022, 04:02:54 PM
And Bannon takes a hit on his contempt charge

https://www.yahoo.com/news/bannon-offers-absurd-legal-argument-161756574.html

Funny how the same actions are perceived differently by different people. https://republicbrief.com/bannon-returns-to-fed-courthouse-a-second-time-goes-nuclear/

According to your post:
Quote
A federal judge refused to throw Steve Bannon a lifeline on Wednesday, instead deciding that the right wing provocateur will indeed go to trial in the coming weeks for refusing to testify before the Jan. 6 Committee.

However, the judge indicated he may eventually hold the Department of Justice accountable for spying on one of Bannon's defense lawyers and secretly obtaining his call and email records.

Bannon is delighted to go to court and not to Committee, because with discovery, his accusers need to answer for their own violations.

Just for the record. One AZ Mule is written up here: https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2022/05/watch-az-state-senate-candidate-gary-snyder-yuma-county-school-board-member-set-plead-guilty-2020-election-ballot-trafficking-crimes-exposed-2000-mules-hearing-june-2nd/

There have been several Mules who plead guilty, and a supplier of scammed ballots has also plead. As for the media quashing all inquiries about Dominion Voting Machines being "unhackable", However this advisory was posted: https://www.cisa.gov/uscert/ics/advisories/icsa-22-154-01

There were four candidates. One was concerned after the vote was in, because Dominion said that candidate received zero votes. After a hand count, the entire election was changed, with the winner getting demoted out of the winner's circle. The proof was in the pudding that Dominion was hacked. Go search for any of this. It'll be hard to find, because even first-rate news articles written that say Dominion was hackable get taken down.






Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: yossarian22c on June 16, 2022, 04:36:50 PM
...

Just for the record. One AZ Mule is written up here: https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2022/05/watch-az-state-senate-candidate-gary-snyder-yuma-county-school-board-member-set-plead-guilty-2020-election-ballot-trafficking-crimes-exposed-2000-mules-hearing-june-2nd/

There have been several Mules who plead guilty, and a supplier of scammed ballots has also plead.
...

Thank you, you've found one person who inappropriately collected ballots. You have 4 inappropriately collected ballots for a primary from someone on the ballot. No allegations the ballots were fraudulent. She was more likely doing this for herself, not for Joe Biden. That's a long way to go to get to 10,000. Keep updating me on actual indictments.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on June 16, 2022, 05:57:18 PM
...Thank you, you've found one person who inappropriately collected ballots. You have 4 inappropriately collected ballots for a primary from someone on the ballot. No allegations the ballots were fraudulent. She was more likely doing this for herself, not for Joe Biden. That's a long way to go to get to 10,000. Keep updating me on actual indictments.

No, There have been many, but I just did your work for you on one to prove myself and show you for what you are. Did you want to explain how the feds stepped in upon finding illegal ballots and finding fingerprints on them, then, on the next day, all these Mules started wearing blue gloves to protect against leaving fingerprints? You'd think some of the Mules (far more than the 2,000 confirmed by their cellphone tracking) would have used some yellow ones or pink ones. Perhaps they were all bought by the same perp who identified with blue?

What has been done is to prove the crimes were done and directed by Party workers (some who also plead guilty), The work put in to research the documentary showed that these votes scams, by themselves, had the numbers to alter the elections.

That, of course, is without the Dominion Voting Machine input. Dominion filed lawsuits against anyone who implied they didn't walk on water. I wonder if all those targets, Like Mike Lindell, will now counter-sue since the ICSA put out official warnings that Dominion can be hacked. Sending the data to be counted in Spain should have been a big enough warning.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Wayward Son on June 16, 2022, 06:43:16 PM
Quote
Did you want to explain how the feds stepped in upon finding illegal ballots and finding fingerprints on them, then, on the next day, all these Mules started wearing blue gloves to protect against leaving fingerprints?

Quote
THE FACTS: (https://apnews.com/article/2022-midterm-elections-covid-technology-health-arizona-e1b49d2311bf900f44fa5c6dac406762) This is pure speculation. It ignores far more likely reasons for glove-wearing in the fall and winter of 2020 — cold weather or COVID-19.

True the Vote’s researcher claimed in the movie that voters in Georgia started wearing gloves to prevent their fingerprints from touching ballot envelopes after two women in Yuma, Arizona, were indicted on Dec. 23, 2020 for alleged ballot harvesting in that state’s primary election. But the Arizona indictment didn’t mention anything about fingerprints.

Voting in Georgia’s Jan. 5, 2021, Senate runoff election occurred during some of the coldest weeks of the year in the state, and when COVID-19 was surging.

In fact, the AP in 2020 documented multiple examples of COVID-cautious voters wearing latex gloves and other personal protective equipment to vote.

In a similarly speculative allegation, the film claims its supposed “mules” took photographs of ballots before they dropped them into drop boxes in order to get paid. But across the U.S., voters frequently take photos of their ballot envelopes before submitting them.
(Emphasis mine.)

I know...the gloves all had the same color.  But was that conspiracy, coincidence, or film editing? ;)
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Tom on June 16, 2022, 06:51:04 PM
Quote
There have been many, but I just did your work for you on one to prove myself...
How many? I ask because I can find a grand total of three -- and that's only if you generously grant to the film every single instance of a dropbox being used to improperly file ballots on behalf of another person. The overwhelming majority of Google hits return the individual you named; they're literally the first result, meaning that you didn't have to do all that much work.

Is three "many," or is there another keyword I should be using to try to find even more actual criminal investigations?
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: yossarian22c on June 17, 2022, 08:59:33 AM
...Thank you, you've found one person who inappropriately collected ballots. You have 4 inappropriately collected ballots for a primary from someone on the ballot. No allegations the ballots were fraudulent. She was more likely doing this for herself, not for Joe Biden. That's a long way to go to get to 10,000. Keep updating me on actual indictments.

No, There have been many, but I just did your work for you on one to prove myself and show you for what you are.
...

Quote
Guillermina Fuentes, 66, and a second woman were indicted in December 2020 on one count of ballot abuse,

But looking closer you actually didn't show anything true about your 2000 mules claim that people are being indicted from their data. The women were indicted in December 2020. So hard to claim 2000 mules had anything to do with their arrest. And if you look back at what I've written about election fraud in the past this is exactly the type of race it happens, small local elections that can be decided by a couple dozen votes. Her motivation was most likely cheating for herself. Also the indictment was only about the primary. So you still haven't found a democratic vote harvester for the general election. One Republican got caught in Pennsylvania.

So I'll ask again who has been indicted and arrested as a result of 2000 mules?
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: TheDrake on July 22, 2022, 04:18:34 PM
Quote
Bannon’s lawyer, David Schoen, called the conviction “a foregone conclusion” based on pre-trial rulings, but said he would file a “bulletproof” appeal. “You’ll see this case reversed,” he predicted.

What is it with these guys? Did they somehow take an oath to never accept reality? Bannon loses again. Which means Trump loses, because Bannon has lots of information to trade if he so chooses.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on July 23, 2022, 09:09:26 PM
Earlier I posted a pretty unarguable statement: "It is generally known by the majority of the people what has happened here. Trump was railroaded by Hillary and the Democrats, including the left-leaning Democrat apologists here in this forum. By any honest person, one cannot deny that the Russian collusion was made up out of whole cloth by Hillary and her people, and then abetted by the Clinton-aligned staff in the top floors of Justice. There is no longer any argument of that. The plan is how to outlast the guilt - not to plead innocence.

Hillary's people, including the judge in Sussman's case, want to believe that Sussman was not working on Hillary's behalf for claiming a non-existent Trump link to Alfabank, which he then billed for. Then they want to claim that Sussman did not get the go-ahead by Hillary to do so, even though we have the testimony from her own chief of staff that she did so. Weasels will waffle and say it was an innocent mistake that lasted two-and-a-half years and cost the country millions of dollars, several unsubstantiated impeachments, and systematic blocking of everything Trump was trying to accomplish. This has been called, by the best historians (not just the Clinton apologists) as the single worst example of political malfeasance, and failed coup d'etat, in the history of the country - yet it is still being defended in this forum.

Where are the heartfelt apologies?"

Instead of being answered or refuted, I was attacked. Has anyone here ever admitted they do believe Hillary did do dirty deeds and Trump was innocent? Just wondering?
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on July 23, 2022, 09:32:34 PM
BTW: Newsmax did a timeline presentation on Trump after his rally, when he was in his office watching the coverage of the protest. They had the channel he was watching and noted that he was watching a view of the march that showed no violence or storming of the Capital. That was the time that the J6 Committee was clamoring that Trump should have decried the violence (which was not reported on what he was watching) and made more statements for the rioters to stand down. How could this have been handled, had there been anyone on that Committee actually looking for truth?
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Tom on July 23, 2022, 09:33:15 PM
I think that "inarguable" summary is almost entirely false, personally.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: yossarian22c on July 23, 2022, 09:55:03 PM
Wm, can you name one of these “best historians“ and what qualifies them as best.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on July 23, 2022, 11:02:35 PM
Wm, can you name one of these “best historians“ and what qualifies them as best.

I recognize them as they come up in my research. Some, like Rodney Stark or Dr. Burton W. Folsom appear many times and authenticate their observations well. I discount many so-called historians who write "puff-pieces" for hysterical politicians who want a certain conclusion that suits their imaginings. I treat so-called scientific authors the same way. Many, often quoted by some politicians are charlatans, poseurs who are mere bureaucrats who pretend to be scientists. For instance, I've read many papers on climatology, and have never found a real scientist who doesn't start off by stating we are currently in an Ice Age, during a warming interval which is way overdue to return to cooling. How many professional educators have you met who admitted there was no "Dark Ages?" ...or that the Church did not prevent Columbus from his desire to circumnavigate the globe because the world was flat? There are many charlatans out there, and even the ability for students to recognize them has been removed from basic curricula.

How many know Margaret Sanger, the founder of Planned Parenthood, wrote: "Modern studies indicate that insanity, epilepsy, criminality, prostitution, pauperism, and mental defect, are all organically bound up together and that the least intelligent and the thoroughly degenerate classes in every community are the most prolific. Feeble-mindedness in one generation becomes pauperism or insanity in the next. There is every indication that feeble-mindedness in its protean forms is on the increase, that it has leaped the barriers, and that there is truly, as some of the scientific eugenicists have pointed out, a feeble-minded peril to future generations - unless the feeble-minded are prevented from reproducing their kind. To meet this emergency is the immediate and peremptory duty of every State and of all communities." (From her book, "The Pivot of Civilization.") Her plan to abort such miscreants as a means to control the "unwanted" is rarely mentioned today, is it? With everything shaded to meet political ends, it is important to study and research those whoonly pretend to be credible.

IOW: Any person's expert must be vetted. There are good ones well-worth looking at and reading. Everyone should do the required work to know who is good and who is not. This is one reason I always request those I converse with make the effort to not take my expert's testimony blindly - but to find their own sources they can really on - but not to take disinformation without proper study.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: yossarian22c on July 25, 2022, 09:24:50 AM
Wm, can you name one of these “best historians“ and what qualifies them as best.

I recognize them as they come up in my research. Some, like Rodney Stark or Dr. Burton W. Folsom appear many times and authenticate their observations well. I discount many so-called historians who write "puff-pieces" for hysterical politicians who want a certain conclusion that suits their imaginings.
...

So you have a sociologist and a historian who moonlights as a ideological economist. Folsom's work doesn't bring to light new historical details, he just writes the story from the point of view that capitalism is the ultimate good and government is always wrong.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: yossarian22c on July 25, 2022, 09:49:57 AM
...
 For instance, I've read many papers on climatology, and have never found a real scientist who doesn't start off by stating we are currently in an Ice Age, during a warming interval which is way overdue to return to cooling.

All climate scientists know that the Earth's landmasses are arranged to provide cooler temperatures. Antarctica frozen over at the south pole cools the planet significantly. The America's, Europe, Asia, and Greenland do a lot to trap cold water and ice in the Artic ocean which also cools the planet, ice reflects heat. Water absorbs heat. This isn't some kind of novel unknown concept by climate scientists, so none of them state it at the beginning of every paper that is studying some other aspect of climate, and it is already built into their models for the climate.

I suppose I'll ask again here. What models are they using to predict a return to cooling? When are they predicting the cooling return? Because the last decade of significant heat matches up well with the IPCC models of the climate that predict warming.

Quote
How many professional educators have you met who admitted there was no "Dark Ages?" ...or that the Church did not prevent Columbus from his desire to circumnavigate the globe because the world was flat?
...

For the lack of a Dark Ages, pretty much every professional historian I have talked to or heard speak about the subject. As to the second, I learned a long time ago that Columbus just sucked at math. The reason he had trouble getting support for his expedition was that people had good estimates of the circumference of the Earth and knew he would never make it to China before starving. He got lucky there was a land mass in between or they would have all died. I'm sure some people still get confused about the Church's denial of Heliocentrism and a flat Earth. But I don't know of any professional historians who would confuse the two.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on July 25, 2022, 10:40:29 PM
...
I'm sure some people still get confused about the Church's denial of Heliocentrism and a flat Earth. But I don't know of any professional historians who would confuse the two.

Actually you confuse me, too. Heliocentrism is usually compared against geocentrism - not a flat earth. All in all, it was the Church that sought out the science. It was the church that decreed the earth revolves around the sun, not placing the Earth at the center.

The issue with talking about "The Dark Ages" is not about history - but about politicians trying to denigrate their opponents.

Stark wrote:
Quote
...The entire "Dark ages" is a crock. Christianity actually inspired science. There was no science in ancient Greece or Rome. Aristotle thought the weight of objects were proportional to the speed with which they dropped. A simple test by dropping two different weights off a cliff never occurred to him. Guesswork without empiricism is not science. It was only at the birth of Christianity, that a wise God appeared who fostered the idea that science could be done and should be done. The Church understood there was a duty to understand God's handiwork, the better to marvel at it. ...The phrase, "Dark Ages," was a myth, first used in the early 19th century by atheists to claim credit for a sudden "enlightenment" that occurred against the Church's wishes.

My personal thoughts about these points of disinformation is that they are part of a dumbing-down of our educational system. John Dewey admitted that in his books, which are available for free on Gutenberg.org, that he wanted to create a system where students  would be good little government lemmings. Read his words. Don't accept my interpretations.

That also leads into the strategy created by Marx and Engels to counter Free Enterprise. They coined the phrase "Capitalism: as a pejorative and expected the strategy of "Immiseration" to end it in failure. That strategy failed because Free Enterprise lifts up all quintiles and no lesser groups were going to hate those on a higher quintile for "stealing" from them. The secondary strategy of "gloabal immiseration" fails also.

However wrong-headed these strategies are, they are the Democrat standard today.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Tom on July 26, 2022, 12:57:14 AM
Quote
Don't accept my interpretations.
For once, I agree with William. Don't accept his interpretations.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: jc44 on July 26, 2022, 06:40:28 AM
Actually you confuse me, too. Heliocentrism is usually compared against geocentrism - not a flat earth. All in all, it was the Church that sought out the science. It was the church that decreed the earth revolves around the sun, not placing the Earth at the center.
Could you give me sources and dates on that?

Wikipedias article on Copernicus states:
Quote
In March 1616, in connection with the Galileo affair, the Roman Catholic Church's Congregation of the Index issued a decree suspending De revolutionibus until it could be "corrected," on the grounds of ensuring that Copernicanism, which it described as a "false Pythagorean doctrine, altogether contrary to the Holy Scripture," would not "creep any further to the prejudice of Catholic truth."
with a note that this prohibition was finally removed in 1835.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: yossarian22c on July 26, 2022, 09:29:09 AM
...
I'm sure some people still get confused about the Church's denial of Heliocentrism and a flat Earth. But I don't know of any professional historians who would confuse the two.

Actually you confuse me, too. Heliocentrism is usually compared against geocentrism - not a flat earth. All in all, it was the Church that sought out the science. It was the church that decreed the earth revolves around the sun, not placing the Earth at the center.

I'm saying what the person who quit learning history in elementary school might confuse in their memories of Columbus, flat earth, and the church's stance on Heliocentrism. No one educated in history, particularly scientific history, confuses any of those concepts. So I was trying to understand/explain how you thought people were ascribing a flat earth attitude to the church at the time of Columbus. And there probably are a few people who believe something like that, but they are people who quit learning in the 5th grade.

The church almost executed Galileo for advocating for the Heliocentric model of the solar system. Hard to give them credit for that advance in science.

Galileo and Descartes are the originators of the modern scientific method. Both came from a Christian society. Descartes claimed to be divinely inspired. But neither was an agent of the church.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Fenring on July 26, 2022, 12:44:47 PM
Actually you confuse me, too. Heliocentrism is usually compared against geocentrism - not a flat earth. All in all, it was the Church that sought out the science. It was the church that decreed the earth revolves around the sun, not placing the Earth at the center.

I believe he was saying that most laymen are ignorant enough about the history of science that they would confuse the Church's slow move away from heliocentrism with it advocating for a flat Earth. As you may know, many people in the last 50 years have been taught in school that in Columbus' time everyone thought the Earth was flat (which is flatly incorrect).
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Fenring on July 26, 2022, 01:05:57 PM
The church almost executed Galileo for advocating for the Heliocentric model of the solar system. Hard to give them credit for that advance in science.

This isn't really an accurate way of describing it. The Galileo situation is typically misunderstood when people trot it out. There are two things he was in trouble for, one of which (arguably the main thing) was insulting the Pope in his book on two new sciences. He asked for permission to write it, they gave him constraints, and he twisted their constraints on purpose in a way that was basically giving them the finger. I can give you more detail if you like, but the long and short of it was they said it was ok for him to present his new theory so long as he didn't present it as uncontested fact, and showed the current theory alongside it. Instead of doing that he presented the 'alternate viewpoint' as an idiot named Simplicio, who was a stand-in for the Pope, and only said ridiculous things. That's kind of funny, but you have to keep in mind what kind of 'publisher' the Church was at the time (a very cautious one). The other problem was he wanted to trumpet his theory too quickly as fact rather than waiting for others to eventually vet his conclusions. This bears some similarity to the situation for Giordano Bruno, and in terms of the reasons they were in trouble largely having to do with things other than their science (e.g. their behavior, their disobedience, etc).

The main thing to keep in mind is there's a difference between resistance to change and refusal to change. The Church's tendency is and was to be very slow to accept modifications to its received worldview, and did not want any old crackpot teaching people all kinds of stuff as fact which hadn't yet had a chance to (slowly) make its rounds about the community in a satisfactory manner. This process could potentially take decades or centuries, and this slow-moving change is a bug and a feature depending on how you look at it, but overall is probably more of a feature. It becomes more of a bug when it's slow to change terrible, destructive goings-on in the present tense. It's a very modern conceit to think that a guy has a new scientific model, and they're oppressing him when they don't immediately allow him to begin teaching it as fact. But think of a comparison to, say, a medical guild or association, which doesn't allow new medications or techniques being used until they've gone through testing and been vetted. This is done to protect people, and to protect the reputation of all doctors in the association. Contrast with the proliferation of 'quack doctors' in the early 20th century, where you could not innately trust a doctor to use accredited techniques. So on its face this is reasonable, but what a contemporary person isn't primed to understand is that in the past this vetting process was much slower than such processes are today. But they did have half-way houses for such theory, and it was typically not banned outright. For instance, the Copernican theory was not exactly banned as such, but it was required that it be portrayed as a mathematical model rather than as a physical reality. And good thing too, since it was an inaccurate representation of the solar system.

Quote
Galileo and Descartes are the originators of the modern scientific method.

This is the first time I've heard this claim, actually. I've heard it ascribed to Francis Bacon, to various enlightenment people. What did Galileo do that was so revolutionary? I mean, he did invent a tool enabling telescope-based astronomy, improving the field of naked eye astronomy greatly, but there was already astronomy as such. I'm more versed in Descartes' philosophical work than any field work he may have done in science, so I can't be as sure with him, but I don't have any recollection in reading history and philosophy of science books that he's given some special status.

Quote
Both came from a Christian society. Descartes claimed to be divinely inspired. But neither was an agent of the church.

I think you're correct in disputing a blithe that anything any scientist said in the past was "the Church" saying it. However it's a complex subject, since you'd have to understand how the vetting process worked for not only doctrine but also issues related to doctrine but subject to potential changes. It's not really accurate either, though, to say that people who lived under the Church weren't agents of it; that would be to incorrectly separate out their faith life from their work life, which is a fairly recent concept. This is especially so since "the Church" can mean the administrative and ecclesiastical authority in the Church, but also just refers to all the people in it. It's not a monolithic voice, even though the authorities did reserve the right to limit what could be taught as facts.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: yossarian22c on July 26, 2022, 01:36:16 PM

Quote
Galileo and Descartes are the originators of the modern scientific method.

This is the first time I've heard this claim, actually. I've heard it ascribed to Francis Bacon, to various enlightenment people. What did Galileo do that was so revolutionary? I mean, he did invent a tool enabling telescope-based astronomy, improving the field of naked eye astronomy greatly, but there was already astronomy as such. I'm more versed in Descartes' philosophical work than any field work he may have done in science, so I can't be as sure with him, but I don't have any recollection in reading history and philosophy of science books that he's given some special status.

Galileo studied pendulum's leading to the development of the pendulum clock and did research with inclined planes that showed that the distance an object fell was proportional to time squared and didn't depend on the mass of the object. These are some of the first important experiments of the scientific revolution. He did other interesting things too in engineering and pre-Newtonian physics that weren't just Astronomy.

Apparently we've read different sources about the origin of the scientific method. But someone has read both. A brief description and comparison of the ideas around science of Descartes and Bacon.

Quote
The differences between the methods of Descartes and Bacon are many and deep, but there are also many things they have in common. Each of these pioneers advocated the complete overthrow of all the methods and most of the results of the authorities that came before them. Both of these men demanded a new standard of precision, since there were so many examples of sloppy reasoning and observation that littered the path of the science of the past. There was also a common commitment to doubt in general and a concern about the "deceptions of the senses" (3, p. 474). In addition, they believed in the reduction of problems to their smallest constituent parts as a general principle. Descartes and Bacon each saw himself primarily in the role of an advocate for science and therefore they contributed very little to any particular field of empirical science (5). Finally, both of these men were uniquely gifted to promote the particular aspects of science that were eventually crucial to its advance.

http://www.thingsrevealed.net/dscrtbacn.htm (http://www.thingsrevealed.net/dscrtbacn.htm)

So it would seem they both contributed to the movement. Descartes did little practical work in Science but his work in mathematics combining Algebra and Geometry probably led to the creation of Calculus. I see Newton as an heir to both Galileo's experiments and Descartes reasoning. But with most things in human history too strongly crediting any one person will miss the society and others who were advocating along similar lines. I'll remember to include Bacon in the future when thinking of the origins of the scientific method.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Fenring on July 26, 2022, 01:41:06 PM
Galileo studied pendulum's leading to the development of the pendulum clock and did research with inclined planes that showed that the distance an object fell was proportional to time squared and didn't depend on the mass of the object. These are some of the first important experiments of the scientific revolution. He did other interesting things too in engineering and pre-Newtonian physics that weren't just Astronomy.

I know Galileo did other stuff, but he wasn't the only one doing mechanics and astronomy. I guess my point was that he uniquely invented the technology to revolutionize astronomy, so I count that as a big win in practical science. But I never saw him particularly as an originator of experimental methods. I'll keep in mind to check up on this next time I'm spelunking through the history.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on July 26, 2022, 04:32:50 PM
[quote author=yossarian22c link=topic=1143.msg62791#msg62791 date=1658856...I know Galileo did other stuff, but he wasn't the only one doing mechanics and astronomy. I guess my point was that he uniquely invented the technology to revolutionize astronomy, so I count that as a big win in practical science. But I never saw him particularly as an originator of experimental methods. I'll keep in mind to check up on this next time I'm spelunking through the history.

Getting back to the thread about the many Trump successes compared to the Biden failures - This week we can focus on the many actions against Huawei Technologies under Trump, and how the Biden decisions to earn his graft from China to allow their espionage is another on-going Biden in-your-face failure. Since Biden was paid for his China actions, this may well be treason:

https://republicbrief.com/shocking-fbi-probe-finds-us-nukes-compromised-by-china-trump-warned-about-this/

Mike Pompeo said: "FBI investigations confirm what we knew in Trump Admin: the CCP uses Huawei equipment to conduct espionage, even disrupt essential national security operations."

Let's all go look at the MSM's revelation of all the national securit threats created from this. It should be everywhere, neh?
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on July 26, 2022, 05:01:27 PM
...The main thing to keep in mind is there's a difference between resistance to change and refusal to change. The Church's tendency is and was to be very slow to accept modifications to its received worldview, and did not want any old crackpot teaching people all kinds of stuff as fact which hadn't yet had a chance to (slowly) make its rounds about the community in a satisfactory manner.

That is directly contrary to fact. It was the Church with a Capital "C" which sponsored science, and ushered new thinking and technology to come into being. Christianity actually inspired science. It was only at the birth of Christianity, that a wise God appeared who fostered the idea that science could be done and should be done. The Church understood there was a duty to understand God's handiwork, the better to marvel at it.

Any slowness of acceptance to new science was bureaucratic and political inertia. And what disinformation against the Church we read about today usually stems from the Atheist efforts in the  early 1800's. As a real world example, look at the Crusades. Think about "The Hammer", Charles Martel. At the time of the Umayyad invasion of Aquitaine at the Battle of Tours, he was outnumbered and facing what was considered the greatest army of horse soldiers in the world. However; Martel had the scientific inventions of the Church behind him, and the new innovations of stirrups and reins allowed his forces to demolish the Umayyad Caliphate.

Acceptance of change is immediate. There are many who try to push the idea that new thinking takes forever and a day to sink in. Actually, we learn and use what we learn at once.

When Trump regains the Presidency - anticipate the corrections after Biden's failure to be far quicker than the media allows will happen. Just think about what Biden's firing of the Immigration Judges that Trump appointed means to the Never-Trumpers who do not deserve their platforms to delimit Trump for a second time. Biden and his handlers have unwisely given any future regimes plenty of precedents to unpoliticize bureaucracy.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Wayward Son on July 26, 2022, 05:57:27 PM
Quote
This week we can focus on the many actions against Huawei Technologies under Trump, and how the Biden decisions to earn his graft from China to allow their espionage is another on-going Biden in-your-face failure. Since Biden was paid for his China actions, this may well be treason:

https://republicbrief.com/shocking-fbi-probe-finds-us-nukes-compromised-by-china-trump-warned-about-this/

Mike Pompeo said: "FBI investigations confirm what we knew in Trump Admin: the CCP uses Huawei equipment to conduct espionage, even disrupt essential national security operations."

Let's all go look at the MSM's revelation of all the national security threats created from this. It should be everywhere, neh?

Blah, blah, blah.  You do realize that Pompeo was quoting a CNN report on Huawei equipment, right?  If it weren't for CNN, you wouldn't even know about this! :D

Which also means that the security threat is mainly Pompeo's opinion, at this time.

Which doesn't mean it may not be a concern, but you're expecting responsible news sources to jump to conclusions like you're fly-by-night sources (such as the opinion article you linked to).

And so far I haven't found any direct link between Biden and Huawei, except for a Chinese investment firm that has some stock in Huawei that Hunter Biden has some money in.  So where is the "graft" coming from?

You're trying to make a mountain out of a molehill.  Find more dirt first. :D
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Wayward Son on July 26, 2022, 06:34:58 PM
And speaking of opinion pieces, the editors of The New York Post, one of the most conservative papers in the U.S. today, had this to say in an editorial last week (https://nypost.com/2022/07/22/trumps-jan-6-silence-renders-him-unworthy-for-2024-reelection/):

Quote
There has been much debate over whether Trump’s rally speech on Jan. 6, 2021, constituted “incitement.” That’s somewhat of a red herring. What matters more — and has become crystal clear in recent days — is that Trump didn’t lift a finger to stop the violence that followed.

And he was the only person who could stop what was happening. He was the only one the crowd was listening to. It was incitement by silence.

Trump only wanted one thing during that infamous afternoon: to pressure Vice President Mike Pence to decertify the election of Joe Biden.

He thought the violence of his loyal followers would make Pence crack, or delay the vote altogether.

To his eternal shame, as appalled aides implored him to publicly call on his followers to go home, he instead further fanned the flames by tweeting: “Mike Pence didn’t have the courage to do what should have been done to protect our Country and our Constitution.”

His only focus was to find any means — damn the consequences — to block the peaceful transfer of power.

There is no other explanation, just as there is no defense, for his refusal to stop the violence.

It’s up to the Justice Department to decide if this is a crime. But as a matter of principle, as a matter of character, Trump has proven himself unworthy to be this country’s chief executive again.

This is the editorial board of The New York Post.

This week it was the Wall Street Journal's turn. (https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-president-who-stood-still-donald-trump-jan-6-committee-mike-pence-capitol-riot-11658528548)

Quote
No matter your views of the Jan. 6 special committee, the facts it is laying out in hearings are sobering. The most horrifying to date came Thursday in a hearing on President Trump's conduct as the riot raged and he sat watching TV, posting inflammatory tweets and refusing to send help... Mr. Trump took an oath to defend the Constitution, and he had a duty as Commander in Chief to protect the Capitol from a mob attacking it in his name. He refused. He didn't call the military to send help. He didn't call [Mike] ]Pence to check on the safety of his loyal VP. Instead he fed the mob's anger and let the riot play out.
(Per Electoral-Vote.com (https://electoral-vote.com/#item-1), since I don't have a subscription, either. :) )

When two of the most influential conservative newspapers in the country--both of whom endorsed Trump in the last election, IIRC--now say (or imply) he is unfit for office, that definitely counts as a loss.

I guess the Jan. 6 Commission has had some effect.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on July 26, 2022, 06:42:41 PM
It is those deep state Murdoch's who are out to get Trump.  They are not real newspapers. Trump hardly knows them.  All part of the Gates/Soros deep state plot.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on July 26, 2022, 07:21:03 PM
Quote
This week we can focus on the many actions against Huawei Technologies under Trump, and how the Biden decisions to earn his graft from China to allow their espionage is another on-going Biden in-your-face failure. Since Biden was paid for his China actions, this may well be treason:

https://republicbrief.com/shocking-fbi-probe-finds-us-nukes-compromised-by-china-trump-warned-about-this/...You do realize that Pompeo was quoting a CNN report on Huawei equipment, right?  If it weren't for CNN, you wouldn't even know about this!

What have you been looking at? According to Peter Schweitzer at the NY Post: "The Bidens received some $31 million from Chinese Businessmen linked to the highest level of Chinese intelligence."

$20 million from Che Feng. $5 million from Ye Jianming, $188,617 from Li Ming. $5 million from Henry Zhao., $1 million from Patrick Ho.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on July 26, 2022, 07:26:45 PM
BTW, do YOU realize the link you poste exxonerates Trump and calls the FBI dirty? Here's a pullquote:
Quote
...As the FBI concluded its Russia investigation, specifically into former president Donald Trump, you can find an electronic document that spells out just how wide a net it gave its agents to find evidence relevant to a crime committed by a president.

As a result, this leeway was largely attributed to Igor Danchenko, the Russian-born US resident, who played a key role in the development of Christopher Steele’s dossier in the 2016 election season. Steele’s London-based research project, now widely viewed as a hoax, was funded by Democrats. It was used for months by the anti-Trump forces under the direction of Rep. Adam Schiff of California, in order to sabotage, harass, and disorient the presidential administration.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Wayward Son on July 26, 2022, 07:42:45 PM
BTW, do YOU realize the link you poste exxonerates Trump and calls the FBI dirty? Here's a pullquote:
Quote
...As the FBI concluded its Russia investigation, specifically into former president Donald Trump, you can find an electronic document that spells out just how wide a net it gave its agents to find evidence relevant to a crime committed by a president.

As a result, this leeway was largely attributed to Igor Danchenko, the Russian-born US resident, who played a key role in the development of Christopher Steele’s dossier in the 2016 election season. Steele’s London-based research project, now widely viewed as a hoax, was funded by Democrats. It was used for months by the anti-Trump forces under the direction of Rep. Adam Schiff of California, in order to sabotage, harass, and disorient the presidential administration.

Uh, who's post?  ???
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: TheDrake on July 27, 2022, 01:54:48 PM
BTW, do YOU realize the link you poste exxonerates Trump and calls the FBI dirty? Here's a pullquote:
Quote
...As the FBI concluded its Russia investigation, specifically into former president Donald Trump, you can find an electronic document that spells out just how wide a net it gave its agents to find evidence relevant to a crime committed by a president.

As a result, this leeway was largely attributed to Igor Danchenko, the Russian-born US resident, who played a key role in the development of Christopher Steele’s dossier in the 2016 election season. Steele’s London-based research project, now widely viewed as a hoax, was funded by Democrats. It was used for months by the anti-Trump forces under the direction of Rep. Adam Schiff of California, in order to sabotage, harass, and disorient the presidential administration.

Nobody but you quotes republic brief, and the article that you're quoting from is a different one than the one you referenced about Huawei.

Btw, Pelosi also urged us allies to avoid Huawei. https://www.cnbc.com/2020/02/14/pelosi-warns-us-allies-dont-go-near-huawei.html

Chuck Schumer criticised Trump not for cutting them off, but for backing down. https://twitter.com/senschumer/status/1144941425047592960

On March 3, 2020: these were the bipartisan authors of a letter asking the UK to reconsider Huawei.

Quote
Senators Schumer and Sasse were joined by Senators Richard Burr (R-NC), John Thune (R-SD), Mark Warner (D-VA), Kirsten Gillibrand (D-NY), Chris Coons (D-DE), Jerry Moran (R-KS), Marco Rubio (R-FL), Richard Blumenthal (D-CT), Ted Cruz (R-TX),  Ed Markey (D-MA), Thom Tillis (R-NC), Chris Van Hollen (D-MD), Todd Young (R-IN), Marsha Blackburn (R-TN), Mitt Romney (R-UT), Josh Hawley (R-MO), Tom Cotton (R-AR), and Rick Scott (R-FL).

The problem, if there was one, was Trump threatening security alliances over it when this would massively have inflated the cost of 5G rollout in Europe.

I doubt you can find a single politician during Trump's four years that said Huawei was NOT a national security problem. Fabricating a partisan issue out of this when it is so easy to disprove makes it pretty clear that your much touted "research" consists of blindly regurgitating questionable sources.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on July 27, 2022, 03:11:20 PM
The FBI’s reported conclusion was that Chinese telecommunications company Huawei placed equipment on American soil capable of disrupting military communications overseeing U.S. nuclear weapons. Biden is into China for over $31 million in graft.

Stop rationalizing for him and play it straight.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: yossarian22c on July 27, 2022, 03:54:08 PM
The FBI’s reported conclusion was that Chinese telecommunications company Huawei placed equipment on American soil capable of disrupting military communications overseeing U.S. nuclear weapons. Biden is into China for over $31 million in graft.

Stop rationalizing for him and play it straight.

No one is defending Huawei. We just don't see anything Biden did to help them.
https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-59262329 (https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-59262329)

Quote
US President Joe Biden has signed legislation that stops companies judged to be a security threat from receiving new telecoms equipment licences.

The Secure Equipment Act says the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) should no longer review applications from companies ruled a threat.

It means equipment from Huawei, ZTE and three other Chinese companies cannot be used in US telecoms networks.

Democrat and Republican senators all approved the bill.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Tom on July 27, 2022, 04:15:20 PM
One should also view that $31 million claim with a reasonably sizable grain of salt. :)
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on July 28, 2022, 12:27:57 PM
No election fraud in WI

https://www.yahoo.com/news/judge-wisconsin-probe-found-absolutely-161220624.html
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: TheDrake on July 28, 2022, 03:55:25 PM
Quote
“This whole case has been about trying to shine a light on government," Bailey-Rihn said. What it revealed, she said, was that in the early days of Gableman's probe, he was being paid $11,000 a month by taxpayers "to sit in the New Berlin library to learn about election law because he knows nothing about election law.”

I thought the Republicans like to say they're the fiscally responsible party.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: yossarian22c on August 01, 2022, 03:40:03 PM
Quote
But there are signs that Trump's once-ironclad grip is beginning to loosen. Having lost reelection by millions of votes, and under pressure from multiple investigations, including the Justice Department's probe of his role in the Jan. 6 insurrection, focus groups and surveys (more on the data below) are starting to show that rank-and-file Republican voters are starting to see Trump as a liability.

Even editorial boards once friendly to Trump, like the Rupert Murdoch-owned New York Post and Wall Street Journal have in the last week called him "unworthy" to be president again, citing his "character" and conduct on Jan. 6.

Trump is losing his appeal to some Republicans. About time.

Quote
More Republicans saying they don't want Trump to be the nominee: 55% of Republicans in a recent CNN poll said they don't want Trump to be their standard-bearer in 2024, up from 49% in February. Similarly, Reuters/Ipsos found a third of Republicans said Trump should not run again, up from a quarter before the Jan. 6 hearings.

Only question is if that 55% can agree on someone to beat him in the primary.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 01, 2022, 08:34:39 PM
In MO Trump has endorsed Eric for Senator.  He did not say which Eric since both Republicans in the primary are named Eric. What  a way to endorse everyone so that when one wins he can claim it was his endorsement that put them over the top.

When it comes to the hard choices, Trump does not make a decision.   He waffles.  Must be tired of backing losers, since the winner of this primary is likely to be elected in the general. At least Trump can point to one Senate race where he backed a winner. Of course it was a foregone conclusion which Party would win.  Unlike Walker in GA and Oz in PA.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 02, 2022, 07:41:41 PM
Who knew that trying to have your followers overthrow the Government is not with in the bounds of Presidential Duty.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/judge-dismisses-trumps-immunity-claim-181511430.html

He keeps trotting out the same defenses and he keeps losing.  He has the be the losingest President of all time.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: TheDrake on August 02, 2022, 10:22:16 PM
Who knew that trying to have your followers overthrow the Government is not with in the bounds of Presidential Duty.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/judge-dismisses-trumps-immunity-claim-181511430.html

He keeps trotting out the same defenses and he keeps losing.  He has the be the losingest President of all time.

Well, Jefferson Davis who tried the same thing?
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on August 03, 2022, 09:22:01 PM
Who knew that trying to have your followers overthrow the Government is not with in the bounds of Presidential Duty.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/judge-dismisses-trumps-immunity-claim-181511430.html

He keeps trotting out the same defenses and he keeps losing.  He has the be the losingest President of all time.

Exactly the opposite. The news reports from the States running Primaries all proclaimed Trump support as winning the day for his choices. Here in Michigan, you should have seen all the Democrat sponsored hit-pieces aimed at Tudor Dixon after Trump endorsed her. They were completely unhinged in their attacks. But she won in a landslide. It seems no one believed any of the attack ads - which portends for the future. The Never-Trumpers are reeling - as well as the Dems

In a news story today, the Dems were trying to perfect new vote-scamming procedures in Michigan. They tried, but the Trump-endorsed candidates won in landslides. People's eyes are open. I doubt the Dems can cheat as well as they did in 2020.  The slanted news reports that say GOP are rallying against him are bogus.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 04, 2022, 07:36:49 AM
So which Eric did he endorse in MO? The one that won or the one that lost?  Let's see how the real elections turn out, not just the primaries.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 05, 2022, 08:43:03 AM
Dick Cheney says Trump is a threat to Democracy.  Waiting to hear the Trumpist call him a RINO.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on August 05, 2022, 12:25:11 PM
Dick Cheney says Trump is a threat to Democracy.  Waiting to hear the Trumpist call him a RINO.

He was shown on Fox News and Newsmax, in full. No edits or paraphrasing, and he said a whole lot of nothing. He and his daughter are Never-Trumpers. Both are tainted by personal ingratitude. Cheney is a Republican Neo-con. That is not in dispute. He and she made the decision to visibly denigrate Trump at every opportunity. More and more, they have been on the wrong side of issues. Monumentally, Liz sided with Dems and other Never-Trumpers to impeach him for issues that have since been proved to be in error. Downright lies, when what Trump had said was proved correct.

Dick Cheney is often castigated for proclaiming WMD in Iraq, Yes, there were WMDs which were documented there, and a massive Russian operation to hide them before the US buildup. He should have stated the case clearly, but instead, bent the knee to the WMD deniers to try to keep on the good side of a Leftists media that wanted to smear Bush 43. His legacy was shaken and calling attention to it made him a leper. Liz was good on most issues until she got the anti-Trump religion.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Wayward Son on August 05, 2022, 01:07:20 PM
Quote
Monumentally, Liz sided with Dems and other Never-Trumpers to impeach him for issues that have since been proved to be in error. Downright lies, when what Trump had said was proved correct.

I don't know how you can say that the impeachments have be "proved to be in error."

There is sworn testimony that the Ukrainian officials were told that they had to start an investigation on Biden to get a White House visit and their much-needed weapons.

And after all the Republican testimony to the Jan. 6th Commission, how can anyone state at this time that he absolutely did not try to incite an insurrection?  A march he planned and wanted to attend; that he knew had armed individuals; and did nothing to stop it once it turned into a riot that threatened the life of his own Vice-President?  This is what you consider to be proven to be in error??  ???

You live in your own little world, William.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on August 05, 2022, 07:17:58 PM
Quote
Monumentally, Liz sided with Dems and other Never-Trumpers to impeach him for issues that have since been proved to be in error. Downright lies, when what Trump had said was proved correct.

I don't know how you can say that the impeachments have be "proved to be in error."

There is sworn testimony that the Ukrainian officials were told that they had to start an investigation on Biden to get a White House visit and their much-needed weapons.

And after all the Republican testimony to the Jan. 6th Commission, how can anyone state at this time that he absolutely did not try to incite an insurrection?  A march he planned and wanted to attend; that he knew had armed individuals; and did nothing to stop it once it turned into a riot that threatened the life of his own Vice-President?  This is what you consider to be proven to be in error??  ???

You live in your own little world, William.

You really should watch other networks than CNN or MSNBC. Those testimonies were shown to be wrong. Trump talked about Hunter and Joe blackmailing the Ukraine, which was proved to be accurate. We all saw Joe bragging about doing it. We recently saw Joe bend over backwards to avoid offending those that gave his crime family so much illegal graft.

Everything you just quoted about what Trump knew and did alá J6 is moot. The J6 commission put on an embedded agent in the Proud Boys who said nobody was armed. It is Pelosi who is avoiding being investigated. She is responsible for her people murdering an unarmed woman, and for denying the offered military to support the half-strength Capital security. Trump was home watching the protest on a station that did not show the supposed break-ins nor any violence. That was confirmed - but the J6 presentation missed it.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Tom on August 05, 2022, 10:06:24 PM
It is honestly sad to see what right-wing propaganda has done to you.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Wayward Son on August 06, 2022, 12:18:41 PM
Quote
Monumentally, Liz sided with Dems and other Never-Trumpers to impeach him for issues that have since been proved to be in error. Downright lies, when what Trump had said was proved correct.

I don't know how you can say that the impeachments have be "proved to be in error."

There is sworn testimony that the Ukrainian officials were told that they had to start an investigation on Biden to get a White House visit and their much-needed weapons.

And after all the Republican testimony to the Jan. 6th Commission, how can anyone state at this time that he absolutely did not try to incite an insurrection?  A march he planned and wanted to attend; that he knew had armed individuals; and did nothing to stop it once it turned into a riot that threatened the life of his own Vice-President?  This is what you consider to be proven to be in error??  ???

You live in your own little world, William.

You really should watch other networks than CNN or MSNBC. Those testimonies were shown to be wrong.

Excuse me?  How can a testimony that said, "I told them this," can be shown to be wrong?  ???  How can you say the special ambassador appointed by Trump to represent him in Ukraine was lying?  Do you even know what you're talking about?

Quote
Trump talked about Hunter and Joe blackmailing the Ukraine, which was proved to be accurate. We all saw Joe bragging about doing it. We recently saw Joe bend over backwards to avoid offending those that gave his crime family so much illegal graft.[/quote[

So this justifies him withholding weapons needed to prevent Russia from invading?   ???

[quote[Everything you just quoted about what Trump knew and did alá J6 is moot. The J6 commission put on an embedded agent in the Proud Boys who said nobody was armed. It is Pelosi who is avoiding being investigated. She is responsible for her people murdering an unarmed woman, and for denying the offered military to support the half-strength Capital security. Trump was home watching the protest on a station that did not show the supposed break-ins nor any violence. That was confirmed - but the J6 presentation missed it.

Confirmed by whom?  When?  What about the testimony of those Republicans who were in the White House with him begging him to take action?  Was Trump also deaf at the time?  Or couldn't he even hear the Senators and Representatives he called during that time who might have mentioned they were evacuating?  Or Hannity telling him to call the mob off?

How much of the actual testimony have you heard yourself?  Or are you getting it filtered by others? ;)
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on August 06, 2022, 02:31:11 PM
...Confirmed by whom?  When?  What about the testimony of those Republicans who were in the White House with him begging him to take action?  Was Trump also deaf at the time?  Or couldn't he even hear the Senators and Representatives he called during that time who might have mentioned they were evacuating?  Or Hannity telling him to call the mob off?

How much of the actual testimony have you heard yourself?  Or are you getting it filtered by others? ;)

You miss much by only viewing the complicit media. I've seen the complicit media as well as legitimate news sources. What testimony which contradicts the Constitutional requirements embedded in the body of it, not just in the Amendments, do you think is worthy to believe? The J6 UnSelect Committee is a travesty and is embarrassing. Not for Trump - but for the people hanging on every inconsistency and lie put forward. Deflection is the name of the game. The vote-scamming is still what was important - not the scammers trying to deflect their scamming by calling everyone who sees through them deniers.

BYW, the time period where the J6 Committee stresses over is when Trump was in his room watching the protest as I noted. The other stuff came later - after he was apprised of possible violations (remember security did wave protesters into the Capital.) He told them to be legal and peaceful from the beginning. Did Pelosi tell her minions not to shoot unarmed women? The contrast is stark.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Tom on August 06, 2022, 09:57:56 PM
Just to be clear, here: you're saying that the Capitol Police are "Pelosi's minions?"
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on August 07, 2022, 11:23:52 PM
Just to be clear, here: you're saying that the Capitol Police are "Pelosi's minions?"

You are kidding, aren't you? You do know the chain of command at the Capital Building, don't you? You do know the Sargeant of Arms wanted to accept the offer of Trump to provide National Guard support, but Pelosi nixed it, even though the building security forces were at half-strength? Pelosi is the number one suspect for the incursion on Jan 6, but she rigged the J6 Committee so she will never need to testify and explain her decisions.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Tom on August 07, 2022, 11:46:15 PM
Do you think the Capitol Police would agree that they are in fact Pelosi's minions?

And I know I said that fact-checking you is exhausting, but I need to point out: 1) Pelosi is not in charge of Capitol security in any sense, or even anywhere in that particular chain of command, as the Speaker of the House hasn't served in that capacity for longer than we've been alive; 2)  there is no evidence that Trump ever made an offer of National Guard support, and the House Sergeant-at-Arms has specifically rebutted his claim to have done so; 3) the committee was "rigged" only in the sense that two specific individuals of interest in the investigation were not permitted to be on it.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on August 08, 2022, 04:01:02 PM
Actually you confuse me, too. Heliocentrism is usually compared against geocentrism - not a flat earth. All in all, it was the Church that sought out the science. It was the church that decreed the earth revolves around the sun, not placing the Earth at the center.
Could you give me sources and dates on that?

Rodney Stark wrote:
Quote
Every educated person of Columbus's time knew the earth was round. This includes Roman Catholic theologians. The Venerable Bede (ca. 673-735) taught that the Earth was round, as did Bishop Virgilius of Salzburg (ca. 720-784). Hildegard of Bingen (1098-1179), and Thomas Aquinas (1224-1274), and all four became Saints. It was part of an ages-old conspiracy of atheists to portray Religion as being anti-Science. Columbus was not argued out of sailing off the edge of the world. The scientist of his day knew the world was round - but much larger than Columbus estimated. He put Japan at being only 2,080 miles from the Canary Islands, but the "sundry wise men of Spain" knew it was over 14,000 miles. Had Columbus not run across an unsuspected continent - his crew would have all died at Sea.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: yossarian22c on August 08, 2022, 04:45:16 PM
Actually you confuse me, too. Heliocentrism is usually compared against geocentrism - not a flat earth. All in all, it was the Church that sought out the science. It was the church that decreed the earth revolves around the sun, not placing the Earth at the center.
Could you give me sources and dates on that?

The sources and dates request was about your claim of the church decreeing the Earth revolves around the sun. They were a couple hundred years at behind the scientific community on that one.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on August 08, 2022, 04:52:24 PM
As for Heliocentrism vs. Geocentrism, the Church erred trying to marry tested science with once-believed Biblical interpretations, which were later proved to be different. The whole issue meant well, to support science vs. non-science.

Guesswork without empiricism is not science. It was only at the birth of Christianity, that a wise God appeared who fostered the idea that science could be done and should be done. The Church understood there was a duty to understand God's handiwork, the better to marvel at it.

It was the Church that fostered science. Quintus Tertullian instructed in the second century, "Reason is a thing of God, inasmuch as there is nothing which God the Maker of all has not provided, disposed, ordained by reason — nothing which He has not willed should be handled and understood by reason." The success of the West, including the rise of science, rested entirely on religious foundations, and the people who brought it about were devout Christians.

In the early seventeenth century, Heliocentrism and geocentrism were open-ended untested science which confused some people who should have known better - to flex their bureaucratic muscles to proclaim what science was and was not. It wasn't until 1916 that Pope Pius V said geocentrism was not De Fide. Non-scientists had held opinions that were wrong and tried to win their arguments by what I have stated as "Laughter by Intimidation", just like some do in this forum. They said the church proclaims it so it must be so. Science continued to accelerate, and truth and reason won out, as it always should. I am not all that religious, myself, except to understand the role the Church had to nurture science. When things fell between the cracks, they festered for a while, but were corrected. Those who poke at the church or religion as holding back science are just mirroring the Andrew Dickson White's of the world.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Tom on August 08, 2022, 04:58:33 PM
For my part, I like to draw a distinction -- thar I find useful -- between religions as institutions and religious epistemologies. Many religions have historically encouraged some degree of scholarly epistemology alongside religious ones, and the two only occasionally come into conflict. When they do, it is not uncommon to see, as we saw the Mormons do in the '80s, the release of statements clarifying that the purpose of scholarship is to know and glorify God, and thus any scholarship which would repudiate dogma is invalid. This sort of reactionary tendency usually only lasts a generation until the new truths are incorporated (or at the very least retroactively justified.)
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Tom on August 08, 2022, 05:00:32 PM
Note, by the way, that I called out your errors above, and you summarily ignored them. This is SOP, and I expect you to again claim that Pelosi was in charge of the Capitol Police within three weeks.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: TheDrake on August 08, 2022, 07:03:15 PM
More on the Pelosi thing. Note that it was the GOP leadership that tried to paint Pelosi with this brush, and their sycophants lap it up.

https://apnews.com/article/fact-checking-235651652542

Meanwhile, did Mitch also refuse the National Guard, because he has Senate oversight of security. Neither of the two politicians has been involved in operational security decisions.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 08, 2022, 07:49:42 PM
Well Toddler Trump says the FBI has raided Mar-a-Lago.  I guess if Trump does not want his home searched maybe he should not keep secret records there.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-fbi-raid-mar-a-lago-investigation-232732108.html
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Crunch on August 09, 2022, 08:20:54 AM
The Biden FBI raiding the homes of political opponents that he may run against is not the win you think it is. Well, except in third world countries. 

This better be rock solid or you just turned Trump into a martyr with the perfect rallying cry.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 09, 2022, 08:22:50 AM
Trump will do that no matter what.  Are ex Presidents allowed to do anything they want since any investigation into any of their activities will be called political persecution? 
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Crunch on August 09, 2022, 08:26:01 AM
Trump will do that no matter what.  Are ex Presidents allowed to do anything they want since any investigation into any of their activities will be called political persecution?

Remember this when Trump or DeSantis take control and they use the fbi and irs in a similar manner. I mean, you’re really cool with that, right? I know I am. 
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 09, 2022, 08:28:58 AM
I mean the FBI Director was appointed by Trump, right? And there have been many findings that Trump might have committed a crime (like taking Gov documents that he is not allowed to have with him to Mar-a-Largo, right?  And Trump never had anyone investigate any family member of Biden's, like Hunter.

Trump loves to play the victim.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Tom on August 09, 2022, 08:29:22 AM
Crunch, would it still be improper to investigate a former president if he had no intention to run again, or had already served the maximum number of terms?
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 09, 2022, 09:06:45 AM
This could be like getting Al Capone on tax fraud instead of murder.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: NobleHunter on August 09, 2022, 09:22:21 AM
I wonder if they found a Trump judge to sign off on the warrant.

Has the GOP forgotten that the FBI probably cost Clinton the election? Or is this another one of their dual standards?
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Wayward Son on August 09, 2022, 10:27:41 AM
Well, it didn't take long for Trump to become a martyr to some.

Trump supporters are calling for civil war. (https://politicalwire.com/2022/08/09/trump-supporters-are-calling-for-civil-war/)

Quote
MAGA, QAnon, and far-right message boards and Telegram channels lit up Monday night with calls for a violent response to what some extremists see as a political attack directed by the Biden administration.

Quote
The posts on these pro-Trump forums tonight are as violent as I’ve seen them since before January 6th. Maybe even more so.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: yossarian22c on August 09, 2022, 11:56:51 AM
I wonder if they found a Trump judge to sign off on the warrant.

Has the GOP forgotten that the FBI probably cost Clinton the election? Or is this another one of their dual standards?

They forgot about that as soon as Trump turned on Comey. The man f-ing handed Trump the white house with his, "we're investigating new emails/nevermind same old stuff" press releases the weekend before the election.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 09, 2022, 01:46:04 PM
Another loss on his tax info.

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/house-committee-see-trump-tax-160328279.html

He will probably appeal to the SC since that has been his MO. We will see if the SC has any objectivity left.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 10, 2022, 09:12:10 AM
What a surprise.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/does-plead-fifth-mean-trumps-115925747.html

Now lets play all of the videos of Trump saying only the guilty need to take the 5th.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMyh7ko9L2g
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: yossarian22c on August 10, 2022, 02:20:48 PM
Along the same lines. All the Republicans are crying about the need for the justice department to release the warrant authorizing the search of Trump's place. Trump (his lawyers) have copies of the warrant and they could release them. But if the justice department actually complied with their demands the message would be: "Look at how much they leak to hurt Trump!"
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: yossarian22c on August 10, 2022, 02:38:17 PM
What a surprise.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/does-plead-fifth-mean-trumps-115925747.html

Now lets play all of the videos of Trump saying only the guilty need to take the 5th.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMyh7ko9L2g

And he did take the fifth on all questions.

https://www.npr.org/2022/08/10/1116714746/trump-testimony-deposition-new-york (https://www.npr.org/2022/08/10/1116714746/trump-testimony-deposition-new-york)

Quote
announcing more than an hour later that he "declined to answer the questions under the rights and privileges afforded to every citizen under the United States Constitution."
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 10, 2022, 02:41:15 PM
Just like his tax returns.  He could release them at any time, even with an audit going on.

What does he have to hide?  It sure looks like the Trump Crime Family is circling the wagons.  I mean that is who Trump has said who uses the 5th, The Mob.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 10, 2022, 02:43:05 PM
And I just want to be clear.  I really do not have any problem with Trump taking the 5th. I wish he  had done it 3-4 years ago when this all started and saved every one the time and money.  It is his right to claim the 5th and he has every right to  do so.

But I do want to call out his hypocrisy.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Wayward Son on August 10, 2022, 05:10:28 PM
Meanwhile, other Trump supporters are threatening the judge who supposedly signed off on the search warrant of Mar-a-Lago. (https://politicalwire.com/2022/08/10/extremists-threatening-the-trump-search-warrant-judge/)
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 10, 2022, 05:47:48 PM
Ah the Party of Law and Order.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: TheDrake on August 11, 2022, 08:02:52 AM
But wait a minute, I thought the trumpies had the utmost respect for judges privacy and that it was criminal to attempt to protest their actions?
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 11, 2022, 08:03:58 AM
Again, only when it is your judges.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Mynnion on August 11, 2022, 08:09:38 AM
Wasn't this a Trump appointed judge?  Oops, I forgot that as soon as anyone exercises and action that questions Trump they are woke traitors.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 11, 2022, 08:35:59 AM
So maybe the FBI was tipped off by someone inside Mar-a-Lago.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/fbi-tipped-off-informer-close-043856588.html

Eric Trump was there.  Hmmm.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: TheDrake on August 11, 2022, 08:46:01 AM
Clearly the judge is secret Antifa. Sneaky devils.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Wayward Son on August 11, 2022, 11:06:05 AM
Looks like Judge Reinhart was appointed by Donald Trump in 2018. (https://theancestory.com/judge-bruce-reinhar/)  But don't worry--Donald only appoints the best judges.  Just ask him. :)

Meanwhile, various conspiracy theories have arisen about the raid, including one that it was timed to occur on the day Richard Nixon resigned. (https://www.politico.com/news/2022/08/11/trump-evidence-fbi-search-00050990) :)
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on August 11, 2022, 01:04:53 PM
Yes, Judge Bruce Reinhart was appointed by Trump in 2018. His name somehow made it on the list of good judges. The info that he was a donor to Obama and Never-Trumpers came later. The Epstein stuff is interesting but not very germane. Lots of attorneys defend scumbags. He did step down from his position as a prosecutor to sign up the next day to represent two of Epstein's closest employees. On the outside, he looked competent - but taking his social postings show him to be a rather reckless Never-Trumper. This could have started when he was a Jeb Bush supporter and Jeb was demolished by Trump's campaigning before 2016. There is no doubt that Reinhart had the bona fides to be appointed. It was his inner beast that went unnoticed when Trump appointed him. Now is a different time, and his actions are under scrutiny.

The National Archives and Records Administration asked for the raid. According to their policy, material is generally consigned to them after a President leaves office. However; policy is not law. It is strictly the wishlist of the policy makers for their own betterment. What is embedded in law; is that the President IS the classifier-in-chief of all documents and information. Whatever he decides is unclassified becomes so. The NARA may want files for their collection - but there is no necessity to do so. Stare decisis and precedent shows Clinton and Obama keeping far more documents (...and White House furniture in Clinton's case) than Trump did, and with no FBI raids to get them back. The correct procedure is to go only after the info documented in a verified affidavit which is the sole authority for a warrant. All such info collected must be signed for and documented. There is no authority to raid the FLOTUS wardrobe, or take 15 boxes of uncatalogued documents. Especially not to bring in a safe0cracker to open a personal safe. Most everything collected is liable for challenge - and the legality of anything discovered may be moot. Trump could have written a receipt to give Putin a key to the Treasury, and it would be inadmissible in Court if not specifically written in the Warrent, and authorized by the affidavit.

There are currently suits to reveal the affidavit and get copies of the warrant, that were only flashed at the MAL staff from 10 feet away. and never handed over. This whole raid stinks and needs to become transparent. With this administration that may be wishful thinking, but it looks to ensure the Red Wave.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 11, 2022, 01:19:59 PM
You know Trump has a copy of the warrant, right?  They have to give him a copy and a receipt for what they took. Since you do not know what the warrant said how do you know they had no right to raid FLOTUS wardrobe?  And bringing a safe cracker to open a safe that is most likely part of the subject of the raid seems perfectly legal to me.

From all that I have read this seems like a perfectly legal execution of a legal search warrant.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Mynnion on August 11, 2022, 01:30:35 PM
WM-The Presidential Records Act is not policy but law.  The fact that Trump also had a large number of classified documents that were part of the 15 boxes collected is also questionable.  I find it interesting that those who wanted to lock Clinton up for the handful of classified documents found on her server don't seem to have any interest in holding Trump to the same standard.  Yes, the president CAN declassify data but it still has to be done through channels and only while he was president.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 11, 2022, 01:36:33 PM
And the attack on the judge is par for the course for Trump supporters.  They are fine and dandy until they make a ruling that goes against Toddler Trump and then all of a sudden they are far left activist judges who never should have been appointed in the first place.

No thought that maybe the judge did the correct thing.  He followed the law and correct procedure.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Wayward Son on August 11, 2022, 01:50:07 PM
Quote
Most everything collected is liable for challenge - and the legality of anything discovered may be moot. Trump could have written a receipt to give Putin a key to the Treasury, and it would be inadmissible in Court if not specifically written in the Warrant, and authorized by the affidavit.

Nope.  Anything that is in plain sight during the search is admissible. (https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/4-things-to-know-about-the-fbi-search-of-donald-trumps-mar-a-lago-estate)  If the warrant allowed them to open the safe, and the receipt was in there, it is admissible.  They just can't go ripping beds apart if the warrant doesn't say there may be papers inside the bed. :)

There is also the fact that raids like these are only authorized when there is a crime being committed at the time.  It would be interesting to see what the warrant said.  Perhaps you should encourage Trump to release his copy of it.  (I heard that one of his lawyers has a copy, regardless of what Eric said.)
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: LetterRip on August 11, 2022, 02:43:10 PM
Quote
There is also the fact that raids like these are only authorized when there is a crime being committed at the time.

Or where destruction or removal of evidence is likely to occur if there is forewarning.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 11, 2022, 03:09:26 PM
Looks like the Gov tried to get the documents back earlier this year. But Trump kept them anyway.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/subpoena-preceded-search-warrant-push-181637433.html

It looks like Trump continues to think the Laws do not apply to him.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Wayward Son on August 11, 2022, 03:45:25 PM
Why should he?  Do any of his supporters think any law applies to him? ;)
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 11, 2022, 08:55:19 PM
Now that the US AG is saying he is going to ask for the warrant to be unseal, there is talk in Trump land that he might oppose that request.

Why would Trump oppose that request?  Hell, why hasn't he released a copy to the press himself if he is so outraged over it?

Maybe because the DOJ and FBI had good info and there were documents that he was supposed to have returned and did not.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 12, 2022, 07:50:09 AM
Looks like Trump is not going to oppose the unsealing of the warrant. Good.

As to Obama taking records.  He followed the rules.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-baselessly-bashed-obama-transferring-000423148.html

Trump does not get it. He does not own the USA like he does the Trump companies. There are rules he has to follow. We all know he does not like following rules.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: TheDrake on August 12, 2022, 08:06:32 AM
In trump world, they think it's good that he doesn't follow the rules. The rules are stupid and trump is a heavily muscled machine gun toting hero with an eagle perched on his shoulder. They might find maps of all our nuclear assets there, and their faith would be unwavering. The evidence was planted. They see nothing wrong with the fact that he ran the government from mar-a-Lago and discussed national security next to the salad bar.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Mynnion on August 12, 2022, 08:30:24 AM
You missed the American Flag cape :)
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on August 12, 2022, 10:27:01 AM
You know Trump has a copy of the warrant, right?  They have to give him a copy and a receipt for what they took. Since you do not know what the warrant said how do you know they had no right to raid FLOTUS wardrobe?  And bringing a safe cracker to open a safe that is most likely part of the subject of the raid seems perfectly legal to me.

From all that I have read this seems like a perfectly legal execution of a legal search warrant.

No. Trump’s lawyer Christina Bobb was only shown part of the warrant. For your understanding, the warrant in question was released early by Trump to the public - but holds little info. The withheld info is all in the affidavit that verified the need for an emergency raid. The specific locations to be searched should have been listed, and legal Trump representatives should have been allowed to witness the raid in its entirety, but they were ordered out of the home to the end of the driveway. These Trump people have said they fear the FBI planted listening and video devices through out the MAL living quarters. The contents of the searched material should have been itemized in detail. They were in there for the better part of a day - so there was time - yet the itemization supposedly only generically lists "boxes".

We know the FBI was proved to have lied about verification of FISA warrants and years of professing what they knew to be lies in order to spy on Trump and his associates. There is no reason at this point to give Justice any credibility. Over half a decade of proof of felony by Democrats has been ignored - yet this raid was sanctioned. Do you recall the raids on other Trump associates?" For minor non-felonious accusations (later proved to be in error) they were held at the end of their driveways in the dead of night - without being allowed to put on their pants, while helicopters and frogmen patrolled the beachfront. There was nothing to be found, yet they grabbed everything they could get their hands on. What can the FBI discover to prove lies about Russia corraboration, when the whole Russia! Russia! Russia! was a lie? Hillary's people were given immunity without being asked any questions. Quite the contrast, neh?

The dark side is plain to see. The more they try to set up Trump as a felonious strawman only defines themselves.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 12, 2022, 10:42:21 AM
You are relaying Fox talking points again.  Trumps lawyers have the warrant and the list of what was taken.

Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on August 12, 2022, 10:48:52 AM
The PRA is moot, because Obama, Clinton, and others all flaunted it and were never held to follow it. The President is the final arbiter of what is classified and what is not. If the nuclear codes were declassified by the President, then they were declassified. No PRA can circumvent that. Hillary only gave back some of the White House furniture they stole because of public pressure to do so. Gifts to the office and not to the person in the office are not to be removed - but such disagreements have always been adjudicated. Merrick Garland is flustered by this attention - and probably wants to ream some of his people new holes in their anatomies for what they are doing to his legacy. But judging from past experience, no one will be held to account for their injudicious actions.

The Red wave is looming larger than ever. Those in line for indictment are scared for their future and appear ready to do anything to avoid their own justice.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Tom on August 12, 2022, 10:54:48 AM
Quote
If the nuclear codes were declassified by the President, then they were declassified.
Is there a record of his hypothetical decision to declassify them?
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on August 12, 2022, 10:55:25 AM
You are relaying Fox talking points again.  Trumps lawyers have the warrant and the list of what was taken.

Exactly as I posted. Part of the warrant without the affidavit(s) and a generic listing. The specifics of what the FBI raiders did in secret is still open. The raid varies from the treatment of obviously guilty Democrats. Why are you apologizing for their actions? At some point, those boxes must be opened and inventoried. If there are no Trump representatives there, there can be no credibility. When you lie to the FISA Court, those actions have consequences.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on August 12, 2022, 10:55:59 AM
Quote
If the nuclear codes were declassified by the President, then they were declassified.
Is there a record of his hypothetical decision to declassify them?

Truth Social is one place.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: yossarian22c on August 12, 2022, 10:58:24 AM
Quote
If the nuclear codes were declassified by the President, then they were declassified.
Is there a record of his hypothetical decision to declassify them?

Truth Social is one place.

Trump can’t declassify things anymore. He would have had to declassify everything before he left office. Not after.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Tom on August 12, 2022, 11:00:57 AM
William, are you saying that if Trump had, as president, gone onto social media and declared, "Any nuclear secrets I may have in my possession in the future are officially declassified," that would have been sufficient notice?

I strongly suspect that multiple arms of our government would disagree with you. :)

------------

Quote
The raid varies from the treatment of obviously guilty Democrats.
Which Democrats, specifically?
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: NobleHunter on August 12, 2022, 11:02:47 AM
I believe nuclear secrets are covered by separate rules than the usual classification regime such that the President may not be able to simply declassify them. Whether or not those rules are Constitutional has not been tested.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Tom on August 12, 2022, 11:12:48 AM
(It should also be noted that anything the president unilaterally declassifies officially becomes vulnerable to FOIA requests. I am extremely skeptical that Trump chose, while president, to make any of these documents available to FOIA -- although this could be tested by anyone willing to file a FOIA request for them. *grin*)
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: rightleft22 on August 12, 2022, 11:48:48 AM
The government that would replace the government by those that don't trust government scares me.
I suspect that many aiding consciously or unconsciously in  the undermining of the institutions won't like what they will replace the institutions with but I doubt many have thought that far.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on August 12, 2022, 11:56:24 AM
I believe nuclear secrets are covered by separate rules than the usual classification regime such that the President may not be able to simply declassify them. Whether or not those rules are Constitutional has not been tested.
(It should also be noted that anything the president unilaterally declassifies officially becomes vulnerable to FOIA requests. I am extremely skeptical that Trump chose, while president, to make any of these documents available to FOIA -- although this could be tested by anyone willing to file a FOIA request for them. *grin*)

FOIA requests are applicable to agency records - not personal property. When a President decides to declassify anything, there does not need to be a declaration. The action of putting documents into the public domain defines the action.

Yes, something that endangers National Security is dangerous, but not because of classification, but because of content. That is a separate actionable offense. You don't need to be a President to endanger the Nation.

Even so, if there is a listing of Nuclear sites, as some have proposed, that is still not a problem if it is under lock and key. I note that Hillary did reveal the name of an Iranian scientist who was helping us in her hacked emails, that did get him killed. That is a separate actionable offense that should have put her in prison by now. Nothing was done. Again, if such a nuclear listing was included in Trump's locked storage are, then it is easily accessible by negotiation and would have been remediated without protest. It does not rise to the emergenct level to provoke a raid.

Former FBI assistant director Chris Swecker: "What you're supposed to do when you possess these types of powers that the FBI does and Justice Department does is use the least intrusive investigative technique to get to what you need to get to, [whether] it's information, evidence, what have you. You're supposed to take into consideration the seriousness of the offense, and the impact on the public confidence in the FBI and law enforcement in general. These are codified in the domestic investigative operation guidelines and the attorney general guidelines. What jumps out at me is how that was completely … just shifted aside, just pushed aside. And this dramatic raid takes place over a fairly de minimis offense. Police lights flashing, dawn raid, kitted out ninja warriors outside, 30 agents inside."
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on August 12, 2022, 12:06:47 PM
The government that would replace the government by those that don't trust government scares me.
I suspect that many aiding consciously or unconsciously in  the undermining of the institutions won't like what they will replace the institutions with but I doubt many have thought that far.

Don't be silly. Correcting government malfeasance is as time-honored an action as is possible. The reason so many people agitate for those responsible for crimes in the Democrat Party is because they seem to have gotten away with Sedition, Treason, or personal graft. The Biden Crime Family is credited with at least $31 million of blackmailable slush money. All a National Security Threat. The best response possible is to throw those predators in jail and show future criminals what can happen to them by misbehaving. Nothing for the good guys to be denigrated for.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Mynnion on August 12, 2022, 12:08:50 PM
Quote
The PRA is moot, because Obama, Clinton, and others all flaunted it and were never held to follow it. The President is the final arbiter of what is classified and what is not. If the nuclear codes were declassified by the President, then they were declassified. No PRA can circumvent that.

Point 1- Obama did obtain a number of documents post presidency however they were obtained legally through the correct channels.  I am not aware of any documents Bill Clinton took or that he was ever accused of it.  You can fuss about Hillary however she was never president.  I will also note that Trump actually strengthened the PRA while he was in office.

Point 2 - Even if Obama and Clinton violated the PRA they are equally accountable for it as a crime.  That does not absolve Trump of taking boxes of public records.  Requests to recover them were only partially complied with and only after a subpoena was issued.  Trump could have complied and he would not have been subjected to the search.

Point 3- Unless there is a record of him declassifying every document BEFORE he left office it is still classified.  A former president can not retroactively declassify something.

We do not yet know what the FBI recovered so i will withhold judgement on specifics.  However I will note that Trump appointed both the FBI director and the judge that signed of on the warrant.  You seem to view Trump as an infallible victim but he can't be both a terrible judge of character when it comes to appointments and the brilliant business man who only appoints the best of the best.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Tom on August 12, 2022, 12:12:21 PM
Quote
FOIA requests are applicable to agency records - not personal property.
Are we going to assume that these documents are in fact Trump's personal property?

Quote
What you're supposed to do when you possess these types of powers that the FBI does and Justice Department does is use the least intrusive investigative technique to get to what you need to get to, [whether] it's information, evidence, what have you.
As far as I can tell, that's absolutely the process that was followed, until the conclusion was reached that the documents in question were imminently in danger of loss. The FBI asserts that it has evidence to justify that decision, and frankly -- given the cavalier and hugely unprofessional treatment of state secrets by the Trump administration -- I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt on this one.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 12, 2022, 12:14:56 PM
Wm would as well as long as it was a Democrat being investigated.  Remember he supports the Blue in all cases except when it involves his guy (just ask teh Capitol Police).
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: rightleft22 on August 12, 2022, 12:34:34 PM
The government that would replace the government by those that don't trust government scares me.
I suspect that many aiding consciously or unconsciously in  the undermining of the institutions won't like what they will replace the institutions with but I doubt many have thought that far.

Don't be silly. Correcting government malfeasance is as time-honored an action as is possible. The reason so many people agitate for those responsible for crimes in the Democrat Party is because they seem to have gotten away with Sedition, Treason, or personal graft. The Biden Crime Family is credited with at least $31 million of blackmailable slush money. All a National Security Threat. The best response possible is to throw those predators in jail and show future criminals what can happen to them by misbehaving. Nothing for the good guys to be denigrated for.

If your review your method of reasoning, what qualifies as fact, who/what can and can not be believed and trusted - who gets to determine those truths you do not end is democracy type of government and that impact on what is considered Law and Order though you might not notice until you find yourself on the wrong side of it. 
I suspect you can't image ever finding yourself on the wrong side of the law and order you are arguing for. Having others use your reasoning methods as to what counts a fact and truth against you.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: yossarian22c on August 12, 2022, 01:48:21 PM
You know Trump has a copy of the warrant, right?  They have to give him a copy and a receipt for what they took. Since you do not know what the warrant said how do you know they had no right to raid FLOTUS wardrobe?  And bringing a safe cracker to open a safe that is most likely part of the subject of the raid seems perfectly legal to me.

From all that I have read this seems like a perfectly legal execution of a legal search warrant.

No. Trump’s lawyer Christina Bobb was only shown part of the warrant. For your understanding, the warrant in question was released early by Trump to the public - but holds little info. The withheld info is all in the affidavit that verified the need for an emergency raid.
...

Here's what the AG said.

Quote
The former president publicly confirmed the search that evening, as is his right. Copies of both the warrant and the FBI property receipt were provided on the day of the search to the former president's counsel, who was on site during the search.

The search warrant was authorized by a federal court upon the required finding of probable cause. The property receipt is a document that federal law requires law enforcement agents to leave with the property owner. The department filed the motion to make public the warrant and receipt in light of the former president's public confirmation with the search, the surrounding circumstances and the substantial public interest in this matter.
...
First, I personally approved the decision to seek a search warrant in this matter. Second, the department does not take such a decision lightly. Where possible, it is standard practice to seek less intrusive means as an alternative to a search, and to narrowly scope any search that is undertaken.
...

So Trump has the full warrant. He could release it. Trump wants all the affidavits. He wants to know who in his employ or circle told the FBI he was holding back on giving them the subpoenaed documents.

Quote
“Trumpworld is abuzz with speculation about which close aide or aides has ‘flipped’ and provided additional sensitive information to the FBI about what former President Trump was keeping at Mar-a-Lago,” Axios reported this morning, citing several sources.

Newsweek, meanwhile, cites two senior government sources claiming that the FBI’s warrant to search Mar-a-Lago was based on information from a confidential human source “who was able to identify what classified documents former President Trump was still hiding.”

https://news.yahoo.com/trumpworld-smells-rat-someone-inner-211821350.html (https://news.yahoo.com/trumpworld-smells-rat-someone-inner-211821350.html)
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Wayward Son on August 12, 2022, 01:51:47 PM
The Wall Street Journal reports (https://www.wsj.com/articles/fbi-recovered-eleven-sets-of-classified-documents-in-trump-search-inventory-shows-11660324501?mod=djemalertNEWS) on what was removed from Mar-a-Lago.

Quote
The Federal Bureau of Investigation agents took around 20 boxes of items, binders of photos, a handwritten note and the executive grant of clemency for Mr. Trump’s ally Roger Stone, a list of items removed from the property shows. Also included in the list was information about the “President of France,” according to the three-page list. The list is contained in a seven-page document that also includes the warrant to search the premises which was granted by a federal magistrate judge in Florida.

The list includes references to one set of documents marked as “Various classified/TS/SCI documents,” an abbreviation that refers to top-secret/sensitive compartmented information. It also says agents collected four sets of top secret documents, three sets of secret documents, and three sets of confidential documents. The list didn’t provide any more details about the substance of the documents.

Mr. Trump’s lawyers argue that the former president used his authority to declassify the material before he left office. While a president has the power to declassify documents, there are federal regulations that lay out a process for doing so.

The search and seizure warrant, signed by U.S. Magistrate Judge Bruce Reinhart, shows that FBI agents sought to search “the 45 Office,” as well as “all storage rooms and all other rooms or areas within the premises used or available to be used by [the former president] and his staff and in which boxes or documents could be stored, including all structures or buildings on the estate.”

This is information that has not yet been authorized by the judge overseeing the search warrant.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on August 12, 2022, 02:36:05 PM
We don't know if the TS/SCI documents were identified in the warrant. The itemized contents was broad and non-specific. All can be assumed to have been declassified. Any dissatisfaction with that by the librarian must be adjudicated. There will be severe push-back here on everything alleged.

The primary Trump opinion is that there was nothing that merited a raid. Anything discovered to be important to the raiders would have  been easily handed over without the intrusive raid. NARA says Obama's millions of pages of documents were handled according to law and were secured by NARA even though in possession of Obama. It is up to a court to decide if NARA has more power than the President to declassify documents. If declassified NARA has no authority to control it.

The major aspects to compare is the difference between a wide-open server (Hillary's) which resulted in the death of an Iranian scientist and safe-guarded non-classified info not open to disclosure nor hacking. Hillary also could not declassify anything.

There is no argument that Trump declassified this material and agreed to the NARA requests for safe-guarding anything they were unnecessarily nervous about. He has stated he did follow all their requests for security. More details will reveal more -  but be careful to see the slant put on by the instigators of this raid. There was nothing taken in this raid that would not have been given over by a simple request without the political chicanery.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on August 12, 2022, 02:46:17 PM
In the spirit of this thread, Trump scores more victories:

Eric Trump posted, "DonaldJTrump.com is shattering all fundraising records and I’m told has raised more money in the past 24 hours than ever before in recent history! The American people are pissed!” The more the RINO-Left attacks Trump, the greater he grows. They just can't learn.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on August 12, 2022, 02:51:07 PM
Trump posted: “Nuclear weapons issue is a Hoax, just like Russia, Russia, Russia was a Hoax, two Impeachments were a Hoax, the Mueller investigation was a Hoax, and much more,” Trump posted on Truth Social Friday morning. “Same sleazy people involved. Why wouldn’t the FBI allow the inspection of areas at Mar-a-Lago with our lawyers, or others, present. Made them wait outside in the heat, wouldn’t let them get even close – said “ABSOLUTELY NOT.” Planting information anyone? Reminds me of a Christopher Steele Dossier!”
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: yossarian22c on August 12, 2022, 02:59:32 PM
...

There is no argument that Trump declassified this material and agreed to the NARA requests for safe-guarding anything they were unnecessarily nervous about. He has stated he did follow all their requests for security. More details will reveal more -  but be careful to see the slant put on by the instigators of this raid. There was nothing taken in this raid that would not have been given over by a simple request without the political chicanery.

Argument! There is no evidence he declassified this material while he had the legal right to do so. The justice department claims they subpoenaed these documents earlier and Trump did not turn them over. That shoots down the argument that a simple request would have sufficed to get the documents back. A request was made. Then a subpoena was served. When the documents weren't returned then the FBI went and took them back with a warrant.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: yossarian22c on August 12, 2022, 03:01:45 PM
... Made them wait outside in the heat, wouldn’t let them get even close – said “ABSOLUTELY NOT.” ...

Maybe because the lawyers didn't have clearance to read the documents being collected.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Wayward Son on August 12, 2022, 03:50:22 PM
In the spirit of this thread, Trump scores more victories:

Eric Trump posted, "DonaldJTrump.com is shattering all fundraising records and I’m told has raised more money in the past 24 hours than ever before in recent history! The American people are pissed!” The more the RINO-Left attacks Trump, the greater he grows. They just can't learn.

Yep.  Because ultimately that's what this is all about--getting you to give him money.

He'll lie to you, tell you what you want to hear, tell you that everyone else is lying.  And then ask you to give him money.  Ask you to make him richer.  He because he isn't rich enough already.  He doesn't have enough money to do this himself.  You need to give him money.

How much have you given him over the years, William.  Added it up yet?  How much richer have you made Donald Trump?

So don't question his lies.  Because everyone else--every news media, conservative or liberal; every judge; every former aide or worker; every document; anyone that contradicts him, including himself--everyone else lies.  He is the only one telling the truth, in every detail.  Be like Jimmy Stewart in Mr. Smith Goes to Washington, grasping the letters and telegrams and declaring them all lies.  Because they are all lies, aren't they?  There is no one in the entire world more trustworthy and honest than Donald J. Trump.  No one who knows the law better.  No one who is smarter.  No one greater, even God with his silly rules for other people.  There is only your lord and savior, Donald J. Trump.

So, yes, give him your money, in his time of need.  Because look at what he is giving you.  Faith.  And Hope.  And you'll give up everything for those, won't you?  :'(
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Wayward Son on August 12, 2022, 03:59:44 PM
Meanwhile, the New York Times reports (https://politicalwire.com/2022/08/12/it-may-not-matter-if-the-seized-info-was-classified/) that, of the three statues that the search warrant was based upon (as Breibart reports (https://politicalwire.com/2022/08/12/three-statutes-triggered-the-trump-search-warrant/)), none of them "turn on whether information was deemed to be unclassified."

Even if Trump somehow declassified them (without going through the proper channels), he may still be criminally liable. ;D
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: rightleft22 on August 12, 2022, 04:03:42 PM
but what if they were emails! Lock her up

but what if, or maybe it was this, or worse that or this and that....

Why don't we wait see, look at the laws that apply and move on from their... but that wouldn't rise any money
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 12, 2022, 05:30:43 PM
Why do we have to assume they were declassified?  There is a process to that. Trump could have ordered it (when he was President) but he personally does not do the de classification. There should be records of what items were declassified. You sure seem to make leaps in assumptions that do not seem to be justified by facts presented.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 12, 2022, 05:33:47 PM
Now that Robin Voss no longer needs Trump (after Trump threw him under the bus), he is going his own way.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/wisconsin-gop-leader-fires-2020-180200228.html
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 12, 2022, 05:38:11 PM
Also Trump declassifying TS/SCI info seems a bit cavalier for information that was that secret.  And I am sure that he was not keeping that info in the correct type of storage facility required by law.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Wayward Son on August 12, 2022, 06:07:14 PM
To give you an idea how serious this could be, here's an ex-naval-intelligence guy giving a brief explanation of the classification system and the stakes that are involved. (https://www.stonekettle.com/2022/08/loose-lips-sink-ships.html)

Depending on what Trump had and who saw it (or even knew about it), he could have really f'ed-up our country.  Which means you, personally.  And your family, and your friends, and your neighbors... :(
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 12, 2022, 06:19:11 PM
Trump during the campaign.  "I could shoot someone here on the street and I could get away with it."

Trump supporters. "He was talking Truthful Hyperbole/metaphorically."

Trump actually shoots some on the street.  "He was AntiFa"

Trump supporters. "We the guy he shot donated to Obama, once years ago and has a jay walking ticket. And he's black.  So nothing wrong here. He had it coming because he hated America."
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Wayward Son on August 12, 2022, 07:07:16 PM
And the warrant's been released. (https://politicalwire.com/2022/08/12/judge-unseals-trump-search-warrant/)  (Link in the link.)

It will be interested to compare it to the one Trump got--if he ever releases it.  ;D
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 12, 2022, 07:16:18 PM
He will release his copy just after he releases his tax returns but just before his Infrastructure Bill.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Ouija Nightmare on August 12, 2022, 09:39:52 PM
He will release his copy just after he releases his tax returns but just before his Infrastructure Bill.


What? You don’t expect to see headlines like “ Trump Leaks FBI Warrant to Breitbart, Doxxing Agents Who Led Mar-A-Lago Search ” ?
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 13, 2022, 08:34:53 AM
Trump allies claiming that the property was searched and no one was allowed to watch, so the evidence was planted.

Except Trump's own lawyers say differently.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-lawyer-says-watched-search-004554738.html
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Mynnion on August 13, 2022, 09:22:07 AM
Trump's lawyers are obviously corrupt and in the pay of Soros/Gates.  Wait that can't happen since he is a stable genius who only picks the bestest of the best.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 13, 2022, 12:15:58 PM
So Wm I want to ask you a question.

First, I agree that Trump has the authority to declassify any information he wanted while he was President. Do you accept that he not able to just do so just by saying so? That there is a process that has to be followed to do this? Witnesses, signatures placed on documents? Stamps showing when the document was declassified?  The reason I ask is that above you say we can assume that all of the documents take from MAL were declassified.  I am honestly curious. Why do we have to assume that?


Second, what is your thoughts on his declassifying TS/SCI level info?  From what I have read, this is the most sensitive info out that that can lead to immediate damage to the country or intelligence sources. Do you question Trump's reasoning for declassifying this type of info?
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Mynnion on August 13, 2022, 12:54:58 PM
The fact that the reported documents were classed as classified would indicate that these documents had not been declassified or they would no longer have that designation.  That means either Trump meant to declassify them and did not follow the proper protocols or they were never declassified.  Since they are classified we will never know exactly what information Trump had illegally moved to ML but I am hoping that enough information will be released to allow the public to decide the associated risks.

I have to wonder what motivated Trump to take the documents in the first place.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 13, 2022, 02:20:32 PM
Blackmail or book deal.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Mynnion on August 13, 2022, 02:30:48 PM
That might make sense for some of them but those that are Top Secret?  Unless he was planning on blackmailing the government I can't see any reason beyond keeping them as a Trump card to sell to the highest bidder if he felt he needed to run.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: NobleHunter on August 13, 2022, 03:09:02 PM
Some of it was probably sheer entitlement. He never seemed to recognize that being President placed obligations on his as well as privileges.

Also, it's unfortunate that the penalty of being disqualified from office probably doesn't apply to the Presidency.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on August 13, 2022, 09:02:42 PM
So Wm I want to ask you a question.

First, I agree that Trump has the authority to declassify any information he wanted while he was President. Do you accept that he not able to just do so just by saying so? That there is a process that has to be followed to do this? Witnesses, signatures placed on documents? Stamps showing when the document was declassified?  The reason I ask is that above you say we can assume that all of the documents take from MAL were declassified.  I am honestly curious. Why do we have to assume that?


Second, what is your thoughts on his declassifying TS/SCI level info?  From what I have read, this is the most sensitive info out that that can lead to immediate damage to the country or intelligence sources. Do you question Trump's reasoning for declassifying this type of info?

No. According to the Constitutional experts and historians, There were no classified documents at Mar-a-Lago. The same group that requested them was the group that originally boxed them up and inventoried them. The whole raid is a political dog-and-pony show. Months before, Trump's attorneys told him there were no classified documents. They had all been declassified while he was President.

The librarian was looking for nuclear launch sites, But the documents have been there and known about forever. There is zero rationalization why anything had to be recovered ASAP in a predawn raid, with no witnesses allowed.

Just one more Democrat depredation against Trump because they are so afraid of him.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Tom on August 13, 2022, 09:07:34 PM
Quote
According to the Constitutional experts and historians, There were no classified documents at Mar-a-Lago.
Who, specifically?
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 13, 2022, 09:18:09 PM
So where is the documentation that they were declassified?  There should be some record of that, right?

Also earlier you said they had no right to search FLOTUS closets and the safe.  But the search warrant seems to give them the right to search those areas.

The NARA boxed up documents back in June but it seems they did not know about these documents. Why were they still there?

I see you did not respond to my second question, that would call Trump's judgment in to question.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 13, 2022, 09:19:39 PM
No witnesses is SOP it sounds like for FBI raids like this. Why should they make an exception for Trump?  Remember, the President is not above the law, which many of his supporters seem to think.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 13, 2022, 09:36:58 PM
I know this will not convince Wm since he is already sure that there were no classified documents at MAL.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trumps-lawyer-signed-statement-months-002954844.html
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: jc44 on August 14, 2022, 10:05:53 AM
I know this will not convince Wm since he is already sure that there were no classified documents at MAL.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trumps-lawyer-signed-statement-months-002954844.html

Well according to the BBC reporting on the raid https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-62527628 they found files marked top-secret, but apparently Trump had a standing order that any files removed from the Oval Office and taken there were to be deemed declassified, so by definition any files found must be declassified (no matter how marked). I wonder if someone in the US can submit an FOI request for their contents - after all if they are declassified that should just work - right?
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Tom on August 14, 2022, 10:07:25 AM
Quote
apparently Trump had a standing order that any files removed from the Oval Office and taken there were to be deemed declassified
If that's true, that's appallingly unprofessional. Which means it's probably true.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 14, 2022, 10:14:09 AM
That was the point of my other question to Wm.  If Trump had a standing order to declassify any document he took out of the Oval Office wouldn't that call his judgment into question?
And to the "Standing Order" do we have any evidence that this claim is true other than Trump saying so?  Any statements from WH Staff/Cabinet Members/ Etc that this was SOP?  Did Trump inform any of the Congressional Intelligence Committes about this?
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 14, 2022, 12:26:17 PM
One of Trump's own Chief of Staffs says Traitor Trump did not believe in the classification system.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/ex-white-house-chief-staff-141634701.html

"He felt he knew better."

More examples of Trump thinking he is above the law and that it does not apply to him.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Mynnion on August 14, 2022, 01:02:41 PM
Let's assume that Trump actually did have this policy.  What proof does he have that he was actually president when they were removed?  Was he the one that actually removed them from the Oval Office?  He stated that he frequently took his work home with him.  I guess this means that he never dealt with classified documents when not in the Oval Office?
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 14, 2022, 01:03:47 PM
So we seem to have a pattern.

Trump does not like the rules of marriage so he cheats on them.

He does not like the tax rules so he cheats on them.

He does not like the election rules so he tries to cheat on them.

He does not like the classification rules, so he cheats on them.

Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: jc44 on August 14, 2022, 02:56:27 PM
Quote
apparently Trump had a standing order that any files removed from the Oval Office and taken there were to be deemed declassified
If that's true, that's appallingly unprofessional. Which means it's probably true.
If you read the linked BBC post you'll find that it was in a statement from Trumps office though that doesn't make it true I guess...
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on August 14, 2022, 04:38:16 PM
That was the point of my other question to Wm.  If Trump had a standing order to declassify any document he took out of the Oval Office wouldn't that call his judgment into question?
And to the "Standing Order" do we have any evidence that this claim is true other than Trump saying so?  Any statements from WH Staff/Cabinet Members/ Etc that this was SOP?  Did Trump inform any of the Congressional Intelligence Committes about this?

There was no "standing order" after the fact. According to his attorneys and the several Constitutional experts like Jonathon Turley, "This is an act that is not heavily enforced, certainly not historically been criminally enforced. Some of the most egregious cases were handled rather lightly. Sandy Berger being an example. He actually stuffed documents in his socks and snuck them out of a secure location leaving them at a spot to be retrieved later. He received no jail time and just pled guilty to a misdemeanor. He wasn’t even forced to lose his security clearance permanently. It was just a three-year suspension. So this is an act that is not known for robust criminal enforcement. That does raise questions as to the all-hands-on-deck raid that occurred."

Well, preceding this raid, we have Left-wing Alan B. Morrison, associate dean at George Washington University Law School advising the J6 Committee to "...sue Trump in federal court, citing the insurrectionist clause in the 14th Amendment of the Constitution to block any future run for office — including for president." His op-ed in "The Hill" might have been the spur for the raid.

As for attorneys being allowed in during the search: Lindsey Halligan, attorney for former President Donald Trump, "So I arrived around 11:00 a.m. and there were about 30-40 FBI agents that I saw, either which were wearing suits, the rest were in cargo pants, masks and gloves. And they basically had unfettered access to the property. They refused to talk to me. They refused to let me in. All I knew is that they were searching areas one, two, and three, which I understood to be the former president’s bedroom, his office, and a storage room. And other than that, we were not allowed to talk to them or go inside at all." The only viewing happened only by watching security-cam footage recorded even though the FBI illegally told them to "turn them off." To those who have never seen a CSI show, anyone can plant evidence or act illegally by hiding their actions from any cameras.

Still waiting for anyone to explain why Sandy Berger got a mere slapped-hand for taking documents out of NARA storage hidden in his underwear and socks, yet Trump who worked with them got raided. One thing to remember, requests by NARA were followed. ...And had been for years. All they had to do was ask. Instead, 30-40 SWAT-armed FBI raided MAL and denied witnesses. The idea they weren't cleared for what might be found is spurious because they were read-in to all the documents. What was illegal, was the raiders taking attorney-client privileged material that they admitted taking. Remember, Trump has already said there were no nuclear secrets being stored.

BTW; locations of ABM-sites are well-known. The big secret is where any nuclear-armed subs are holding station - which was never in any old documents. Why the rush? Oh, yes - we are looking at Morrison's advice to use the 14th Amendment to block Trump's reelection.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on August 14, 2022, 04:41:40 PM
BTW: Alan Dershowitz specifically stated that the 14tyh Amendment cannot be used to deny the run for President.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 14, 2022, 04:47:01 PM
I am talking about a standing order while he was President.  The face that any and every piece of TS/SCI would be declassified when he took it out of the oval office? Doesn't that strike you as dangerous?

What info did Sandy Burger sneak out?  I really do not remember. Was it TS/SCI? But he was caught and he was prosecuted.

As to no one being allowed to watch the search. Again, SOP for the FBI.  Have you been complaining for years about this tactic when it was used against normal people?  I do not remember your saying a word.  And no evidence that they planted anything.  Just speculation on your and Trump's part.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: DJQuag on August 14, 2022, 05:29:10 PM
WmLambert -

I'd be more impressed if you had ever, just once, talked about how the way the justice system, from federal to local level, treats people. When it comes to you complaining about just this, just now, makes you look a tad bit myopic. What about the scores of people affected by over eager policing, seems to me you've either been ignoring that or sat silent. And now the Martyr is accused of withholding top secret documents for *a year and a half *, is asked to give them back, refuses, and gets "raided."

Spoiler alert bruh, what they did was go to a judge for a warrant, get it signed, and then went to execute it. Should his attorneys have not been allowed to see the proceedings? I disagree with that part, but it sounds part and parcel for what the FBI and any other law enforcement orginisation does. I can feel sorry for you in the abstract but don't expect me to cry now, not when you and people just like you have been laughing  at people being upset over stuff like this for literal decades.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Tom on August 14, 2022, 06:11:51 PM
Quote
All they had to do was ask.
This is demonstrably false.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: DJQuag on August 14, 2022, 06:55:50 PM
Jared Kushner was given $2 billion against professional investment advice.

Guess we better talk more about the laptop, though.

Edit to add -

Pretty obvious Kushner was the one to tell them about the safe. There's a mole, someone had been already set up as the fall guyz and he went talking.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 15, 2022, 09:29:21 AM
Lindsey Graham is going to have to testify in GA.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/judge-sen-graham-must-testify-125815026.html
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 15, 2022, 01:01:25 PM
Trump is asking what he can do to turn the heat down on the situation?  Maybe stop attacking the FBI and calling what is happening a scam and politically motivated?  Maybe he can tell his followers that they can work this out in court? That he has nothing to hide and will cooperate fully with the investigation?

Probably not going to see that happen.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: rightleft22 on August 15, 2022, 01:32:24 PM
Quote
Trump is asking what he can do to turn the heat down on the situation?

He could stand down, retire, keep his mouth shut and not run in 2024. I'd be ok with letting him enjoy what time he has left if he just went away. it would be a positive for the GOP

But theirs just to much money in it for him, each of these self inflicted dramas makes him millions. His drones just can't stop sending him thier money and don't even care when it ends up in his pockets. Its a great scam, I don't see him giving it up.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Wayward Son on August 15, 2022, 01:47:29 PM
Trump may actually be in bigger trouble than we thought, because the NYT reports (https://thehill.com/policy/national-security/3601682-nyt-trump-lawyer-told-doj-classified-material-was-returned/) that one of Trump's lawyers signed a statement certifying that "all material marked as classified" had been returned.

Quote
I would not be surprised if DOJ refuses to pursue charges, regardless of their strength, in the absence of a “plus factor” like obstruction. But that factor might be present here, given recent reports that one of Trump’s lawyers signed a written statement falsely asserting that “all material marked as classified” had been returned to the government. That falsehood might be why an obstruction statute was included in the search warrant executed at Trump’s residence.

That false representation creates potential liability for the lawyer, because lying to the federal government is a crime if it is done knowingly and willfully. DOJ could investigate that lawyer, who could claim that she relied on Trump’s false statements or — if she lied on her own — potentially flip on him. If DOJ can establish that Trump was personally behind efforts to obstruct their investigation, they very well might charge him.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 15, 2022, 01:53:43 PM
Again the argument is that the material is not classified since Trump declassified it.  The documents are probably not marked declassified and almost certainly did not follow the correct procedure to be declassified, but Traitor Trump waived his "huge" magic wand and did it anyway. I mean that is the power of the King, oh I mean President.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Tom on August 15, 2022, 03:42:48 PM
Quote
But theirs just to much money in it for him....
I think that's actually the least of his motivations. The legal privileges and immunities enjoyed by a sitting president -- and, arguably, a presidential candidate -- are quite possibly his last recourse, so he needs to run (and probably win) again to avoid having the law come down on him in twenty separate ways like twenty separate tons of bricks. So much of current Republican behavior only makes sense in the context of stalling actions designed as shields from culpability.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Wayward Son on August 15, 2022, 03:46:24 PM
Again the argument is that the material is not classified since Trump declassified it.  The documents are probably not marked declassified and almost certainly did not follow the correct procedure to be declassified, but Traitor Trump waived his "huge" magic wand and did it anyway. I mean that is the power of the King, oh I mean President.

Two problems with that argument:

1.  The statement was "all materials marked as classified."  Even if he had waved his magic wand and suddenly made the papers declassified, they would (and are) still marked as classified, on the title page of the documents and on every page of the documents, at the header or the footer.  So the signed statement is still a lie.

2.  This statement was given after he had returned 15 boxes of classified materials earlier this year.  Why didn't he claim those papers were declassified, too, at the time?  Why is it only now that we hear about his edict that he declassified everything?  Or were those 15 boxes returned earlier this year the ones he took illegally (since they were still classified), but these were OK?  Why return some materials marked classified, and then not mention the ones he declassified that he was keeping? ???

It isn't logical and doesn't pass the smell test.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 15, 2022, 03:49:51 PM
Oh I agree it does not pass the smell test, but when has that stopped him and his cronies? Their excuse is that all of the work to declassified is just paper work, so he is not guilty of anything and did nothing wrong or suspicious or questionable.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: TheDrake on August 15, 2022, 04:34:50 PM
Meanwhile 2A lunatics are cleaning their weapons to defend this criminal. I'm surprised the Proud Boys haven't started patrols around Mar-A-Lago.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: yossarian22c on August 15, 2022, 04:41:56 PM
Meanwhile 2A lunatics are cleaning their weapons to defend this criminal. I'm surprised the Proud Boys haven't started patrols around Mar-A-Lago.

It will be shocking to them when their hero has the police kick them off his private club.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on August 15, 2022, 04:51:56 PM
Again the argument is that the material is not classified since Trump declassified it.  The documents are probably not marked declassified and almost certainly did not follow the correct procedure to be declassified, but Traitor Trump waived his "huge" magic wand and did it anyway. I mean that is the power of the King, oh I mean President.

Two problems with that argument:

1.  The statement was "all materials marked as classified."  Even if he had waved his magic wand and suddenly made the papers declassified, they would (and are) still marked as classified, on the title page of the documents and on every page of the documents, at the header or the footer.  So the signed statement is still a lie.

2.  This statement was given after he had returned 15 boxes of classified materials earlier this year.  Why didn't he claim those papers were declassified, too, at the time?  Why is it only now that we hear about his edict that he declassified everything?  Or were those 15 boxes returned earlier this year the ones he took illegally (since they were still classified), but these were OK?  Why return some materials marked classified, and then not mention the ones he declassified that he was keeping? ???

It isn't logical and doesn't pass the smell test.

It is logical, and does pass any smell test. Those 15 boxes of documents were requested by the NARA and Trump handed them over for their benefit as it was his pleasure to do so. As all Presidents, outgoing Presidents hold things for their personal libraries at their convenience. Trump asked his attorneys about the documents a long time ago, and they told him they were not classified. Democrats go beyond that and hide things that may be embarrassing - as Sandy Berger did, because those notes did reveal Clinton lied. I'm sure the normal Clinton response is to destroy embarrassing material and acid-wash hard drives and break phones with hammers to hide what they are afraid of. Then the DOJ  ignored anything beyond slapping hands. Trump never did that and negotiated with NARA. Since there were no earlier subpoenas, this all came out of the blue - without cause. Obama's people routinely ignored subpoenas, laughing at them. Why wasn't Rahm Emmanuel indicted?

The Dems cite precedence and Stare Decicus but only if it benefits them.

As always, the Dems have shot themselves in the feet again. After the MAL-raid fiasco, Trump moved up in the polls another 10 points over DeSantis. the Red Wave is more enthused than ever, and Morrison's urging to use the 14th Amendment to block Trump running is dead in the water.

They are so scared of the November elections that it is spurring absolute half-baked and illogical short-sided strategies.

BTW; any documents marked as "Classified" that are no longer classified no longer fall under any document-handling rules and regulations - short of common-sense storage which Trump followed. Declassified documents are not required to be continually updated forever. There were attorney-client privileged papers seized illegally. Will we see prison time to those responsible? Unlike the moot arguments over what is classified or not, Attorney-client privilege is not in dispute.

What does not pass the smell-test is charging that nuclear site info that was supposedly known about and were not considered important for more than a year suddenly became so important that it could launch an unannounced raid. The NARA had the storage areas locked, and the Secret Service was guarding everything. This was only done for J6 Committee political tactics. It backfired. Trump wins again.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Tom on August 15, 2022, 05:02:02 PM
Quote
BTW; any documents marked as "Classified" that are no longer classified no longer fall under any document-handling rules and regulations...
We would need to actually see some evidence that they were in fact declassified during his term, of course.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Wayward Son on August 15, 2022, 05:21:03 PM
Quote
BTW; any documents marked as "Classified" that are no longer classified no longer fall under any document-handling rules and regulation...

You do realize that the reason classified documents are marked as "CLASSIFIED" on every single page is that so they can be easily identified as classified documents to anyone who sees them.  This helps protect the documents themselves, and those who may view them, since everyone knows whether they are classified or not at just a glance.

Which is why, when a document is declassified, the classification cover page is removed and the classification is blacked-out on the header or footer of each page.  Again, so that everyone knows it is no-longer classified.

Reports that I have read say that the documents taken from Mar-a-Lago still had the classifications on the pages.  Which means everyone has to assume those documents are still classified.

So, no, they do still fall under document-handling rules and regulations, so long as they have the classifications on the pages.  Otherwise the rules are useless.  Anyone could argue, "Oh, I was told they were declassified.  How should I have known they were still classified?" ;)

Only someone as ignorant and arrogant as Trump wouldn't understand this.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 15, 2022, 06:39:09 PM
And still no comment from Wm about the judgement needed to just declassify documents because he wants to take them to the Residence and not keep them in the Oval Office.

Aren't Standing Orders written down somewhere? So that there is a record of it?  Any proof of this Standing Order?

And Wm there is a process, fairly detailed and time consuming to declassify documents. It is not done just by the President saying so.  He can order it done, but there is a process. There is no evidence that the process was followed.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on August 15, 2022, 09:28:05 PM
...Which is why, when a document is declassified, the classification cover page is removed and the classification is blacked-out on the header or footer of each page.  Again, so that everyone knows it is no-longer classified.

Reports that I have read say that the documents taken from Mar-a-Lago still had the classifications on the pages.  Which means everyone has to assume those documents are still classified.

So, no, they do still fall under document-handling rules and regulations, so long as they have the classifications on the pages.  Otherwise the rules are useless.  Anyone could argue, "Oh, I was told they were declassified.  How should I have known they were still classified?" ;)

Only someone as ignorant and arrogant as Trump wouldn't understand this.

Wrong. Policy is not law. If NARA librarians want to keep old copies of unclassified documents for whatever reasons, they can cross out "C's" or black them out to their hearts content. Being unclassified means they are no longer under the auspices of librarians. They are now sheets of paper with historical roots. Only a political apologist would miss that and pretend that they merit some divine intervention.

You guys love to call Trump ignorant and arrogant, but you always miss the mark. A President holds the supreme power of Classification. There are no regulations that can trump his prerogatives. If a President holds something to be Classified or deClassified, then it is whatever he wants it to be. There are no rules to delimit his actions. He doesn't need to prove it to anyone. Too bad if some Seventh-floor Fed wants to appear Godlike - it won't fly - and getting one's nose bent out of shape is good for them. Makes them remembwer who is really in charge. (Which is something this DOJ needed to learn.) Making up sacred NARA isms that don't exist is pitiful. I understand that in the Swamp - many bureaucrats believe their daily efforts are greater than the Constitution, but they aren't.

Face it. Since Trump came down the golden escalator, the old Clintonites in the upper realms of the DOJ did everything they could do to hinder his authority. He performed better than any President in history. Think how great the country could have become if these seditionists had worked with him instead of against him.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Tom on August 15, 2022, 09:46:20 PM
Are you saying, William, that former President Clinton could declare that all those documents Trump stole are definitely classified? That all he would need to do is declare that he had decided, back when he was president, that any document brought to Florida by a presidential administration in the next century would be automatically Top Secret? And that he just never bothered to tell anyone until now?

Also, this -- "Being unclassified means they are no longer under the auspices of librarians." -- is manifestly false. Federal documents, even when declassified, are almost always under the auspices of librarians.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on August 15, 2022, 10:05:37 PM
Are you saying, William, that former President Clinton could declare that all those documents Trump stole are definitely classified? That all he would need to do is declare that he had decided, back when he was president, that any document brought to Florida by a presidential administration in the next century would be automatically Top Secret? And that he just never bothered to tell anyone until now?

Of course not. You should cut back on your sarcasm. The documents came with him after they were declassified. OTOH; Hillary had no power of declassification when she acid-washed hard drives and destroyed phones with a hammer over items that were subpoenaed.

Legislators demanded the release of the affidavit, which would include details like why the warrant was sought in the first place.

There are major judicial rights embedded in the body of the Constitution - not in any Amendments. They were considered too important to not be in the body of the Constitution. These concepts include Habeus Corpus, The right to a speedy trial by an impartial jury, and the right to cross-examine witnesses, and to call witnesses to support their case  The Founders did not want to endure the "assumed guilty" courts of England and demanded all plaintiffs had the right to address their accusers - no star chambers. These embedded directions in the Constitution trumps Garland's wish to hide the affidavit that sparked the Mar-A-Lago raid, and calls the entire J6 Committee hearings in violation.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Tom on August 15, 2022, 10:09:35 PM
Quote
The documents came with him after they were declassified.
And your evidence that they were declassified is...?


(As a side note, your reference to "acid washing" really doesn't help you look like you know what you're talking about. BleachBit is not in fact any sort of physical, chemical treatment. Hannity just misunderstood/erroneously speculated, Trump repeated it, and the right-wing punditosphere has kept that particular misunderstanding going for years.)
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: TheDrake on August 15, 2022, 10:20:09 PM
Fun fact. It doesn't matter if the documents were declassified or not.

Quote
As such, the classification system exists in parallel to separate criminal penalties Congress has imposed to protect security secrets.

For example, the Espionage Act of 1917 — one of the laws cited in the search warrant — protects secrets that it defines as defense-related information that could harm the United States or aid a foreign adversary. It makes no reference to classification status, and prosecutors in an Espionage Act case do not need to prove that anything was deemed classified.

A rare exception, in which Congress has tied a law to the classification system, is Section 1924 of Title 18 of the U.S. Code, which makes the unauthorized retention or removal of classified material a crime. But that was not one of the laws that was listed in the search warrant as a focus of the investigation.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on August 16, 2022, 12:20:41 AM
...your reference to "acid washing" really doesn't help you look like you know what you're talking about. BleachBit is not in fact any sort of physical, chemical treatment. Hannity just misunderstood/erroneously speculated, Trump repeated it, and the right-wing punditosphere has kept that particular misunderstanding going for years.)

Once again a day late and a dollar short. The Bleach bit analogy has been familiarly referred to as acid-washing since Hillary did it. Acting as if using a familiarized term makes Hillary into a saint doesn't work. Remember how she acted ignorant and said something like, "Oh, you mean like washing it with soap and water?"

Fun fact. It doesn't matter if the documents were declassified or not.

Quote
As such, the classification system exists in parallel to separate criminal penalties Congress has imposed to protect security secrets.

For example, the Espionage Act of 1917 — one of the laws cited in the search warrant — protects secrets that it defines as defense-related information that could harm the United States or aid a foreign adversary. It makes no reference to classification status, and prosecutors in an Espionage Act case do not need to prove that anything was deemed classified.

A rare exception, in which Congress has tied a law to the classification system, is Section 1924 of Title 18 of the U.S. Code, which makes the unauthorized retention or removal of classified material a crime. But that was not one of the laws that was listed in the search warrant as a focus of the investigation.

Alam Dershowitz's often cited the Espionage Act of 1917 as the second most stupid act ever written. Interesting we must resort to it here. The info supposedly cited on the warrant was 18 months old. Please explain why the existing invitation for any requests at all from Trump's attorneys was ignored (they were always immediately provided) yet so time-sensitive to inspire a raid of three dozen FBI SWAT-armored agents?

It is now known that Hillary may have been behind the raid:

Paul Sperry reports (Former D.C. bureau chief for Investor’s Business Daily, Hoover Institution media fellow, author of several books, including bestseller INFILTRATION”): "Sources say Hillary Clinton operatives have been secretly working with Archives officials and the Justice Department for several months and are behind the push for the investigation of Trump as “revenge” for Clinton being investigated for mishandling classified materials in her Emailgate scandal."
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: cherrypoptart on August 16, 2022, 02:34:48 AM
I heard on the radio that the guy who approved the warrant had previously recused himself in a Trump related case because of how much he has publicly expressed his hatred of the man. It was alleged that the DOJ went shopping for a guy to approve their warrant because they knew an honest judge wouldn't do it, and why this guy didn't recuse himself again is also a wonder.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Mynnion on August 16, 2022, 05:11:31 AM
This article by the extremely radical left leaning  WSJ appears to detail the facts on Judge Reinhart.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/judge-who-approved-trump-search-warrant-was-in-role-by-chance-11660488027

Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: cherrypoptart on August 16, 2022, 07:06:57 AM
Is it far fetched to wonder if the timing of the warrant request could have taken into account that the other judge would be unavailable and this one would be the pinch hitter?


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11107969/Trumps-attorney-wants-know-Judge-Reinhart-recused-Clinton-lawsuit.html

So that's a good question. Why did he recuse himself in the other case but figures he's unbiased enough to unleash this clown circus against Trump now? And the bigger question is would any judge they had taken this warrant request to have improved it? Or in other words, are there any judges would would have said no? I suppose we'll never know the answer to that for sure, but if the answer isn't that any and every judge would have approved it the same was this guy did, then that's a problem.

Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 16, 2022, 07:41:21 AM
Wm
Where does this unfettered authority come from?  Not the Constitution since the whole system was not put into place until at least the second half of the 20th century. So it was done by regulation, right?  I find it hard to believe that the President can, at a whim, do what ever he wants with sensitive information, with no oversite what so ever.

But still no comment from you on the judgement to declassify any document just because he took it to the Residence.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 16, 2022, 07:43:42 AM
Cherry

So you heard on the radio? Which program?  Info Wars? The War Room? Some local radio show with no vetting?
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Mynnion on August 16, 2022, 08:35:26 AM
Quote
Is it far fetched to wonder if the timing of the warrant request could have taken into account that the other judge would be unavailable and this one would be the pinch hitter?


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11107969/Trumps-attorney-wants-know-Judge-Reinhart-recused-Clinton-lawsuit.html

So that's a good question. Why did he recuse himself in the other case but figures he's unbiased enough to unleash this clown circus against Trump now? And the bigger question is would any judge they had taken this warrant request to have improved it? Or in other words, are there any judges would would have said no? I suppose we'll never know the answer to that for sure, but if the answer isn't that any and every judge would have approved it the same was this guy did, then that's a problem.

I will not say it is outside of the realm of possibility.  The article states that if there is compelling evidence of a crime the judge has no choice but to provide the warrant.  Since neither of us know the specific information that was provided the judge and since documents Trump had no right to have were found (classified or unclassified is irrelevant) it seems to me that the judge made a valid call.  His feelings for Trump are not relevant and the fact that he was ethical or at least cognizant of the possible backlash if he did not recuse himself in the previous case as favorable.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: TheDrake on August 16, 2022, 08:40:24 AM
Quote
Judge Reinhart recused himself from that case without citing a reason, two months after another magistrate, Ryon McCabe, also recused himself without citing why.

So we don't know if he had a problem with Trump, someone else involved, or the subject matter. The nameless radio show clearly said something that the judge didn't, that it was because of bias against Trump. Maybe he was just trying to avoid death threats from Trumpians who have no problem attacking judges and FBI agents when they get angry enough.

Quote
Far-right extremists on pro-Donald Trump message boards and social networks are making violent, antisemitic threats against the judge who reportedly signed the warrant that allowed the FBI to search the former president's Mar-a-Lago property in Florida.

Multiple members of these toxic online communities are even posting what appears to be Judge Bruce Reinhart’s home address, phone numbers, and names of his family members alongside threats of extreme violence.

“This is the piece of *censored* judge who approved FBI’s raid on Mar-a-Lago,” a user wrote on the pro-Trump message board formerly known as TheDonald. “I see a rope around his neck.”

Can you blame any judge for recusing themselves from a case involving the orange one?
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: cherrypoptart on August 16, 2022, 08:52:09 AM
Well what some radio station on the radio said was that the same guy who approved the warrant had in another Trump case recused himself and that much was true as I linked a story confirming it. The rest that they went on about with speculation concerning judge shopping is just conjecture. I didn't recognize the talk show host but in any case the judge considers himself too biased to give a fair shake to Trump, or at least he did before. Maybe since then he's come around to hating Trump less. Nobody else has though so that's hard to believe. To be fair, I can see how granting a warrant and presiding over a case are two completely different animals so this could very well be another nothing burger. It all depends on whether or not that warrant would have been granted regardless of the judge.

Okay, to be fair again maybe animosity toward Trump had nothing to do with the recusal as you pointed out. That we don't know. The radio guy either implied it did or said as much, that this judge or magistrate or whatever was an outspoken Trump hater. If that isn't true then I heard some fake news.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: DJQuag on August 16, 2022, 11:36:12 AM
Well what some radio station on the radio said was that the same guy who approved the warrant had in another Trump case recused himself and that much was true as I linked a story confirming it. The rest that they went on about with speculation concerning judge shopping is just conjecture. I didn't recognize the talk show host but in any case the judge considers himself too biased to give a fair shake to Trump, or at least he did before. Maybe since then he's come around to hating Trump less. Nobody else has though so that's hard to believe. To be fair, I can see how granting a warrant and presiding over a case are two completely different animals so this could very well be another nothing burger. It all depends on whether or not that warrant would have been granted regardless of the judge.

Okay, to be fair again maybe animosity toward Trump had nothing to do with the recusal as you pointed out. That we don't know. The radio guy either implied it did or said as much, that this judge or magistrate or whatever was an outspoken Trump hater. If that isn't true then I heard some fake news.

I for one appreciate you keeping an open mind, Cherry.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: yossarian22c on August 16, 2022, 01:02:42 PM
...

Of course not. You should cut back on your sarcasm. The documents came with him after they were declassified. OTOH; Hillary had no power of declassification when she acid-washed hard drives and destroyed phones with a hammer over items that were subpoenaed.

Legislators demanded the release of the affidavit, which would include details like why the warrant was sought in the first place.
...

You don't have to wonder. Trump had documents marked as classified, top secret, and TS/SCI secured by a padlock in his basement at Mar-a-Lago. He isn't authorized to have classified documents anymore. He never had the documents properly declassified. If he had we could submit FOIA requests to see the contents.

But even if he had somehow declassified the documents, that wasn't even germane to the warrant.

https://www.npr.org/2022/08/15/1117607474/the-documents-the-fbi-searched-in-mar-a-lago-dont-hinge-on-being-classified (https://www.npr.org/2022/08/15/1117607474/the-documents-the-fbi-searched-in-mar-a-lago-dont-hinge-on-being-classified)

Quote
GERSTELL: It's awfully hard to accept that for both legal reasons and, almost more importantly, practical reasons. We've had - ever since the United States introduced a very detailed system of classifying our nation's secrets going back to the time of President Truman right after World War II, we've had a very, very specific procedure for how we classify the nation's secrets and then also, very importantly, how we declassify them. And that process, which is written down in both statutes and executive orders of the presidents that are binding on both Republican and Democratic presidents, say that there has to be a process. Someone needs to make an affirmative decision as to what kind of damage would result to national security, if any, as a result of a declassification. The agency that's involved that created the information in the first place has to be consulted. They get to say, gee, this would be a problem for us, or, no, it wouldn't. And then it has to be memorialized and recorded and that information disseminated out to the rest of the government.

Why? Because if another agency the next morning got a request from the public or under a Freedom of Information Act to release the information, they would have to know what has been declassified.
...
KELLY: Let me invite you to take a step back with me and consider, legally, is it even relevant whether Trump declassified these papers or didn't? And I'm asking because the search warrant for Mar-a-Lago referenced three potential crimes that the FBI is investigating, three statutes, not one of which depends on whether these documents were classified. Does it matter?

GERSTELL: Actually, it doesn't. And I think what's listed in the search warrant is fascinating both for what it includes and what it doesn't include. What it doesn't include, interestingly - and the search warrant is limited to three specific statutes. And the one that it didn't cover is a statute that makes it a crime to knowingly remove or retain classified documents. That statute wasn't listed. Why? I suspect that's because the Department of Justice wanted to be on extremely solid ground when they undertook this search warrant. And, of course, they were also aware that maybe the president claimed he had declassified this stuff.

So they didn't list that section there because they wanted to list three other statutes that have nothing to do with whether a document is declassified. One is a provision of the Espionage Act that relates to the mishandling of something called national defense information; not quite the same as classified documents - similar. And the other two statutes relate generally to mishandling of official government documents, nothing to do with whether they've been declassified. They could be as declassified as possible, and you might still be guilty of a crime under these other two statutes which relate to just mishandling of government records and storing them improperly.

KELLY: So as someone who has handled a lot of classified documents, what question is foremost in your mind now? Where does this go?

GERSTELL: I think the key thing that we need to recognize is that we should try to step back and divorce this case from the politics and the emotion for a second and simply say that if the Department of Justice was faced with a situation in which someone - some former government employee, whether high-ranking or low-ranking - was known to be in possession of government documents, including ones that are apparently top secret, what would the government do? And in this case, the government would in every case say, let's try to get them back. We can't run the risk that they're in an insecure place, that perhaps Chinese spies or some other adversary would try to get them. And they would ask for them back. And the government has a strong reason to do so and a deep history of doing that almost without regard to who's involved.

And this effort - first, they asked for them back; then they issued a subpoena; and then finally they undertook a search to seize the documents - is exactly what I would expect the government to do. The question of whether there is a subsequent prosecution is a separate issue. And the Department of Justice will weigh all the facts and make a decision on that. But step one is getting documents back so that our national security is no longer at risk.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on August 16, 2022, 01:06:06 PM
Wm
Where does this unfettered authority come from?  Not the Constitution since the whole system was not put into place until at least the second half of the 20th century. So it was done by regulation, right?  I find it hard to believe that the President can, at a whim, do what ever he wants with sensitive information, with no oversite what so ever.

But still no comment from you on the judgement to declassify any document just because he took it to the Residence.

You find it hard to believe the President is the final arbiter of Classification? Forget asking me my sources. What is yours for denying fact? Are you attempting to deflect or just more of your constant sneering and bullying?

You keep asking about your lame deflecting questions that are easily ignored - but never answer my cogent questios. Did you replay to Hillary Clinton operatives secretly working with Archives officials and the Justice Department for several months and are behind the push for the investigation of Trump as “revenge” for Clinton being investigated for mishandling classified materials in her Emailgate scandal?

Here's a question... Will you please respond to all the questionable DOJ actions? Where do you want to start? The lack of action on all the attacks on multiple pro-life centers and their people vs. the immediate charging of someone attacking a pro-choice center? How about the 14 FBI whistleblowers revealing the out-of-control seventh floor? Want to discuss Garland, Wray, Comey, McCabe, Clapper, Brennan, Strzok, Page, Schiff? Three were fired for cause. How about Lerner who targeted Conservative groups via the IRS? Why do you shill for these criminal predators?
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: NobleHunter on August 16, 2022, 01:23:40 PM
Just because the President can declassify anything doesn't mean he can do so in any manner he desires. It is entirely reasonable that he might not be able to declassify documents en mass. It was the position of his own administration that not all statements purporting to declassify documents were sufficient to actually to declassify them.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Tom on August 16, 2022, 01:52:24 PM
Good Lord, William. Drink some chamomile tea and put a hot towel on your head.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: rightleft22 on August 16, 2022, 02:49:29 PM
Has Trump said why he wanted those documents? To what purpose?

The number of wild 'excuses' just another move in the Trump playbook to muddy the waters.  And the red hats lap it up never looking to deep at how they might see things differently if the likes of Hillary were involved.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: TheDrake on August 16, 2022, 03:22:39 PM
I'll respond to it.

Quote
"Sources say Hillary Clinton operatives have been secretly working with Archives officials and the Justice Department for several months and are behind the push for the investigation of Trump as “revenge” for Clinton being investigated for mishandling classified materials in her Emailgate scandal."

First, it doesn't appear that he's written any article on the subject, he just lobbed this as a tweet. His anonymous "sources" don't impress me, certainly no more so than CNN anonymous sources. He's a Trumpian through and through. He doesn't even say "government sources highly placed but not authorized to speak". His source could just be an 8chan message board guy named "Trump4Eva". Got anything remotely credible about the shadowy Clinton operatives?

You want to know why nobody wants to respond to your points any more? Because its like Lucy asking us to kick the football again. You have no legitimate interest in trying to objectively ascertain the truth or likelihood of your dubious facts, so why should we make the effort?
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Tom on August 16, 2022, 03:24:09 PM
I was thinking about addressing Jim Jordan's 14 mythical whistleblowers, but figured that it wasn't productive to poke any of William's jelly-like "cogent questios (sic)" just to watch them jiggle.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: rightleft22 on August 16, 2022, 03:46:35 PM
Well I have first hand knowledge of second hand info of someone who new someone who had a friend of a cousin that has a photo of themselves with Hillary... Say that Hilary packed for Trump to get him in a gotcha.  I think it was Keven Bacon or someone that knows Keven Bacon. But that's what happened
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 16, 2022, 04:16:22 PM
An example of Trump declassifying intel but not caring what it does to National Security.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/oval-office-incident-2019-perfectly-173357590.html
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: rightleft22 on August 16, 2022, 04:23:19 PM
silly rabbit. When the supreme "leader" does anything its has to be ok, right and good. He's supreme, that's just logic. 
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on August 16, 2022, 08:36:18 PM
silly rabbit. When the supreme "leader" does anything its has to be ok, right and good. He's supreme, that's just logic.

You are talking about Biden, aren't you?

This fixation on Trump is self-incriminating. Do you, Tom, and msquared, get a paycheck from Soros, or are you so intent on ignoring the unfair attacks that you seem to somehow miss them when you watch CNN or MSNBC?

The strawman Trump you envision in your minds is easy to laugh at - but it is not Trump. Why not explain the obvious left-wing attacks?
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on August 16, 2022, 08:43:43 PM
“due to attorney-client privilege, Trump’s team asked the Justice Department for their position on whether they would support a third party, independent special master to review those records, but sources told Fox News that the DOJ notified Trump’s team that they would oppose that request.”

Why?
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Tom on August 16, 2022, 09:27:01 PM
Why should they?
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: TheDrake on August 17, 2022, 12:37:39 AM
Emphasis mine, Article is from the Washington Examiner, a conservative leaning outlet.

Quote
Former President Donald Trump said he wants any privileged records seized during the FBI's raid on Mar-a-Lago returned to him.

The declaration was made not in court but on Trump's social media platform Sunday morning after Fox News reported agents seized boxes containing records covered by attorney-client privilege and potentially executive privilege from the former president's Florida residence.

"Oh great! It has just been learned that the FBI, in its now famous raid of Mar-a-Lago, took boxes of privileged 'attorney-client' material, and also 'executive' privileged material, which they knowingly should not have taken," Trump said on Truth Social. "By copy of this TRUTH, I respectfully request that these documents be immediately returned to the location from which they were taken. Thank you!"

Sources told Fox News that Trump's team asked the Justice Department if it would support an independent special master to review the records, but the agency said it would oppose the request. The DOJ and FBI declined to comment, the news outlet said.

Andrew McCarthy, the former chief assistant U.S. attorney in the Southern District of New York, said on Fox News that Trump could make a motion under the rules of criminal procedure to get his property back, but offered some words of caution.

"I'd be a little leery to do that if I thought they were investigating me because if you take a position and then they charge you, you’re kind of locked into what you said," McCarthy said. "So if he doesn’t absolutely need that material back, I think I’d lay low in the tall grass for a while and see what they do."

So you want the FBI to respond to truth-tweets? Judges to rule on it? Trump wants to ask for it back, he's got a recourse for that. But he'd have to follow the rules, rather than squeal like a piglet.

Also- "It has just been learned." Wouldn't he and his attorneys already know that privileged material had been removed? Would they need Fox to report on it first to complain? Why be so outraged, when it is a standard procedure to seize everything, then sort it out later. Were the agents supposed to comb through on the spot and collate material?
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: TheDrake on August 17, 2022, 12:43:49 AM
As far as if they would oppose it, isn't it possible that DOJ would oppose it because in fact the documents are not covered by attorney client privilege? This privilege is also waived if it involves the commission of a crime, mind you. If Trump's lawyers advised him that keeping these documents was illegal, then it is material in furtherance of a crime or some such. The assumption you make, wm, is that they are going to oppose something wholly reasonable and proper because they are secret Clinton operatives, which is on the level of an illucid conspiracy theory.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: yossarian22c on August 17, 2022, 08:10:35 AM
As far as if they would oppose it, isn't it possible that DOJ would oppose it because in fact the documents are not covered by attorney client privilege? This privilege is also waived if it involves the commission of a crime, mind you. If Trump's lawyers advised him that keeping these documents was illegal, then it is material in furtherance of a crime or some such. The assumption you make, wm, is that they are going to oppose something wholly reasonable and proper because they are secret Clinton operatives, which is on the level of an illucid conspiracy theory.

It wouldn't matter if they did appoint a special master. If they didn't give the result Trump wanted it would just be another deep state/Clinton/never Trumper/democratic operative. Basically it wouldn't change anyone's mind. It would just slow things down. And stall, appeal, delay is the entire Trump legal strategy.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 17, 2022, 08:15:53 AM
Wm how about your fixation on Hillary?  Transference anyone?

I am fixated on Trump since I view his continued participation in American politics.  If he had just accepted his legitimate defeat handed to him by the American public, I would leave him alone.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 17, 2022, 08:30:14 AM
Trump felt that the documents generated during his Presidency were his and not the countries.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/oval-office-incident-2019-perfectly-173357590.html

In defiance of Presidential Records Act.

Trump ignores laws he does not like.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: rightleft22 on August 17, 2022, 09:17:15 AM
silly rabbit. When the supreme "leader" does anything its has to be ok, right and good. He's supreme, that's just logic.

You are talking about Biden, aren't you?

This fixation on Trump is self-incriminating. Do you, Tom, and msquared, get a paycheck from Soros, or are you so intent on ignoring the unfair attacks that you seem to somehow miss them when you watch CNN or MSNBC?

The strawman Trump you envision in your minds is easy to laugh at - but it is not Trump. Why not explain the obvious left-wing attacks?

When was the last time you objectively questioned anything your 'leader' said or did? 
When was the last morning you didn't login to your bubble to get your talking points to disseminate without questioning what you were repeating or even why? 
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 17, 2022, 09:34:57 AM
I do not get a paycheck from Soros or Gates.  I do not have cable so do not watch CNN or MSNBC.

i watch live broadcasts of the Jan 6 insurrection as it happened.  I saw thousands of Trump supporters riot and storm the Capitol.  I saw Trump do nothing for hours.  I watched it happen live. And all that I have found since then only makes it worse. The Oath Keepers. The Proud Boys. Trump's call to GA.

All of the findings by the audits run by Republicans have found the same thing.  He lost.

You think there was some country spanning plot to steal the 2020 election that would have involved several hundred if not thousands of people across every state in the land. But after almost 2 years all you have is conjecture.  No real evidence.  You have some mathematician who says his data analysis shows Biden victory was very unlikely.  But that is not evidence, that is conjecture. No evidence of wide spread fraud. Anywhere. No witnesses who say they muled thousands of votes. Every single person involved has been able to keep silent.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 17, 2022, 12:52:24 PM
I have watched this guys videos for years and he is always clear and methodical.  Warning about half an hour long.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekefMUICOGo

One take away.  It does not matter if Trump declassified the documents. The are still protected from his just taking them. So all this blather about Trump being the ultimate authority to declassify does not seem to be the main issue.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: rightleft22 on August 17, 2022, 01:27:49 PM
The issue if Trump could wave his hand and declassified them is part of the misdirect to muddy the waters.
The issue of taking the documents and only returning some after the first subpoena is a matter for law not public opinion. Trumps lawyers can make the above argument but I doubt they will.

The question you wont ever get answered is Why Trump chose the documents that he did to take with him and not return after the initial subpoena requesting that he do so.
To what purpose did Trump intend to use those documents?
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 17, 2022, 01:49:11 PM
Also if any of the documents dealt with Nukes, then is is not allowed to unilaterally  declassify them.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on August 17, 2022, 02:55:22 PM
I do not get a paycheck from Soros or Gates.  I do not have cable so do not watch CNN or MSNBC.

i watch live broadcasts of the Jan 6 insurrection as it happened.  I saw thousands of Trump supporters riot and storm the Capitol.  I saw Trump do nothing for hours.  I watched it happen live. And all that I have found since then only makes it worse. The Oath Keepers. The Proud Boys. Trump's call to GA.

All of the findings by the audits run by Republicans have found the same thing.  He lost.

You think there was some country spanning plot to steal the 2020 election that would have involved several hundred if not thousands of people across every state in the land. But after almost 2 years all you have is conjecture.  No real evidence.  You have some mathematician who says his data analysis shows Biden victory was very unlikely.  But that is not evidence, that is conjecture. No evidence of wide spread fraud. Anywhere. No witnesses who say they muled thousands of votes. Every single person involved has been able to keep silent.

No, there were hundreds of eyewitness affidavits that were not examined by the courts. They were said to lack standing. Please explain to all of us, how the official poll watchers were denied standing to file these reports. Without those affidavits, what police action can be brought?

Yes there was at least a five-state-spanning plot to steal the election. You seem to ignore the threads pulled together to prove that. You rely on the dismissal of those affidavits, without which the vote scammers were never investigated. I remind you of how the FBI works these days. There are many attacks on pro-life targets that were ignored. There was one pro-abortion attack that was immediately investigated and the perpetrator indicted within four days. Evidently if a criminal is a Democrat, he/she gets a pass.

I bring up Hillary, because her felonies were blatant and admitted - yet ignored by Comey - and thereafter by all his agents.

To repeat: There were 16 legitimate Hillary violations:
Quote
UNAUTHORIZED REMOVAL AND RETENTION OF CLASSIFIED DOCUMENTS OR MATERIAL
18 U.S.C. § 1924 Class: A misdemeanor
Possible penalty: imprisonment for 1 year and/or $100,000 fine
"Knowingly removing materials containing classified information of the United States with the intent to retain said info at an unauthorized location without the ability to do so."

GATHERING, TRANSMITTING OR LOSING DEFENSE INFORMATION
18 U.S.C. § 793 Class: Felony
Possible penalty: imprisonment for 10 years and/or $250,000 fine
"Allowing (by means of gross negligence) any document relating to the national defense to be removed from its proper place of custody or destroyed -or- willfully retaining unauthorized documents relating to national defense and failing to deliver them to the United States employee entitled to receive them -or- failure to report that unauthorized documents relating to national defense were removed from their proper place of custody or destroyed."

CONCEALING, REMOVAL, OR MUTILATION GENERALLY
18 U.S.C. § 2071 Class: Felony
Possible penalty: imprisonment of no more than 3 years, a fine, or both
"Whoever, having the custody of any such record, proceeding, map, book, document, paper, or other thing, willfully and unlawfully conceals, removes, mutilates, obliterates, falsifies, or destroys the same."

Note: none of these laws permit a get-out-of-jail-free card based on intention. The same laws were used, at the same time as Hillary did this, to indict a submariner who had no intention of doing anything with the photos he took of his work place. He was given prison time.

Hillary Clinton recklessly discussed, in emails hosted on her private server, an Iranian nuclear scientist who was executed by Iran for treason. She outed Shahram Amiri, who gave information to the U.S. about Iran's nuclear program. Her emails were read in Iran and elsewhere.

Iran confirmed that Amiri had been hanged for treason. He was convicted of spying charges, according to the Associated Press.

Hillary provided his name so they could say: "This person who had access to the country's secret and classified information had been linked to our hostile and No. 1 enemy, America, the Great Satan" a spokesman for the Iranian judiciary said. "He provided the enemy with vital and secret information of the country."

Comey said she did it, but because he didn't think it was intentional, said no prosecutor would move on it. It was illegal for him to exonerate her, but he did and was later fired.

As for your seeing live broadcasts of the Jan 6 insurrection as it happened - not on cable - you obviously saw the edited-down version which probably ignored the shots of the security guards waving the protestors in through the opened doors, and leading others to join them. I saw it as it happened, and saw it rebroadcast numerous times on the networks you never watch. It was also on YouTube - but you woud have had to know it existed to search for it. Did you see unarmed Air Force veteran Ashli Babbitt, being killed by one of Pelosi's guards? It has been over 577 days and Ashi still has not had justice served.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on August 17, 2022, 03:01:44 PM
Also if any of the documents dealt with Nukes, then is is not allowed to unilaterally  declassify them.

Sorry, but you are pretending you know the law. As President, Trump was the head of all enforcement - Nuclear info included - and his decision of what or how to declassify documents was entirely up to him. You have no say in it. If the NARA librarian, who may have caused all this mischief, said that, then Biden's proposed disinformation Czar would have been forced to slap him down for lying.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 17, 2022, 03:04:32 PM
Watch the video. He was not on Nuke info.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: yossarian22c on August 17, 2022, 03:45:48 PM
...
No, there were hundreds of eyewitness affidavits that were not examined by the courts. They were said to lack standing.
...

I am guessing its still worthless to ask you to pick one affidavit and explain the following:
1) why its credible
2) how it shows wide scale fraud
3) give a source the affidavit
4) tell us where (county/precinct) the fraud happened
5) tell us how many votes were impacted
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: rightleft22 on August 17, 2022, 04:05:45 PM
Also if any of the documents dealt with Nukes, then is is not allowed to unilaterally  declassify them.

Sorry, but you are pretending you know the law. As President, Trump was the head of all enforcement - Nuclear info included - and his decision of what or how to declassify documents was entirely up to him. You have no say in it. If the NARA librarian, who may have caused all this mischief, said that, then Biden's proposed disinformation Czar would have been forced to slap him down for lying.

You claim not to server the supreme leader Trump and then grant him all power to do as he wishes that you then project onto Biden

If Trump has the power to wave his hand and declassify documents without following any procedures that will be up to his Lawyer's to argue (my bet is that they will not) Saying that as supreme leader he has the power does not make it so. Let the courts work out this distraction to the real issues.

Tell me William to what purpose did Trump take those documents and wave his magical hands over to make it ok to take.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Wayward Son on August 17, 2022, 04:48:43 PM
Here's one problem with the "Trump unilaterally declared documents to be unclassified" idea:

If the President can declare a document to be unclassified, shouldn't he be able to declare it classified, too?  I mean, if he is the final authority, shouldn't deciding that something should be classified within his power, too?  If, for instance, circumstances change so that a certain document is now a security risk, or if it came to his attention that it was declassified in error?

So if Joe Biden, or one of his representatives, told Trump that documents he has are classified, doesn't that mean they are now classified, regardless of whether Trump declassified them or not?  And shouldn't he have immediately surrendered such documents when told so?

Or does the final authority to classify and declassify documents rest solely with President Donald Trump (ret.)?
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 18, 2022, 08:23:05 AM
Not sure if this is a win or loss for Trump but Alex Jones is now out of the Trump camp.  I guess he was a Soros/Gates deep plant never Trumper the whole time.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/alex-jones-turns-donald-trump-040546216.html
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Mynnion on August 18, 2022, 08:58:28 AM
I am guessing that many in the GOP political world would like to see Trump disappear and be replaced by someone a little less volatile.  I am not sure what is worse.  A crazy like Trump who can't be controlled by the party or someone who has the leadership skills to push things so far right we'll enter a new Dark Ages of corporatism and religious rule.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: cherrypoptart on August 18, 2022, 08:59:38 AM
I know an anti-vaxxer who feels the same way as Jones in not liking Trump because Trump was pro-vaccine. It's just interesting seeing pro-vaccine people supporting Jones turning on Trump when that's one of the main reasons.

A lot of people hate Jones for the Sandyhook accusations so Jones turning on Trump should be a net positive for Trump.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 18, 2022, 09:02:46 AM
Does Desantis want Jones's support?
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: cherrypoptart on August 18, 2022, 09:07:40 AM
I like DeSantis though and think he'd have a better chance of winning the Presidency than Trump. I didn't like DeSantis being anti-mask and telling some students to take off their masks, but you can't have everything you want in a guy and Biden did worse when just before delta hit he said if you're vaccinated you wouldn't spread the virus so you could safely take off your mask so there aren't really any winners on that issue. I still support Trump though but realistically DeSantis has the better shot just because of baggage. If Trump could get behind DeSantis that would probably be best. Maybe Trump is his VP. I know it's farfetched that Trump would play second fiddle but it would be the best chance to win. And Trump, depending on his health, would still be able to run again for President eight years after that as DeSantis finishes his second term, first Hispanic President and then the oldest President ever.

I doubt any major contenders want Jones's support. He probably just did Trump a big favor.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: LetterRip on August 18, 2022, 09:13:01 AM
I like DeSantis though and think he'd have a better chance of winning the Presidency than Trump. I didn't like DeSantis being anti-mask and telling some students to take off their masks, but you can't have everything you want in a guy and Biden did worse when just before delta hit he said if you're vaccinated you wouldn't spread the virus so you could safely take off your mask so there aren't really any winners on that issue.

The CDC's statement was based on the science known at the time.  You are comparing a blatantly anti-science position by DeSantis and a science based decision by the CDC.  If you want to vote for DeSantis because you like what he says, fine, but don't try to deceive yourself that they are anything alike on the issue of engaging in or encouraging responsible behavior as regards public health.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 18, 2022, 09:21:19 AM
No way Trump plays second fiddle to any one. And my guess is if he runs and does not win the nomination, he will claim it was stolen by RINO's in the party and that he is the true nominee.  A normal person with his money would then self fund a run as a third party, but Trump hates to use his own money.

I would love to see a three way primary between Trump and Desantis and either Pence or Cheney.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on August 18, 2022, 09:37:33 AM
No way Trump plays second fiddle to any one. And my guess is if he runs and does not win the nomination, he will claim it was stolen by RINO's in the party and that he is the true nominee.  A normal person with his money would then self fund a run as a third party, but Trump hates to use his own money.

I would love to see a three way primary between Trump and Desantis and either Pence or Cheney.

Why has no one mentioned the first proposed ticket, with Trump as President and DeSantis as VP - ready to become President for Trump's third term? Does anyone think a Trump-DeSantis ticket would fail?
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 18, 2022, 09:40:03 AM
Two people on the same ticket from the same Red State? Not good politics there. And I think Desantis sees blood in the water around Trump and that Trump is a deeply flawed option. Desantis has seen how Trump treats his VP when he does not do exactly what Trump wants him to do.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: yossarian22c on August 18, 2022, 09:40:22 AM
No way Trump plays second fiddle to any one. And my guess is if he runs and does not win the nomination, he will claim it was stolen by RINO's in the party and that he is the true nominee.  A normal person with his money would then self fund a run as a third party, but Trump hates to use his own money.

I would love to see a three way primary between Trump and Desantis and either Pence or Cheney.

Why has no one mentioned the first proposed ticket, with Trump as President and DeSantis as VP - ready to become President for Trump's third term? Does anyone think a Trump-DeSantis ticket would fail?

Yes.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 18, 2022, 09:48:31 AM
It would probably not fail to get the Rep nomination, but I think it would fail in the general election.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Mynnion on August 18, 2022, 10:33:30 AM
Quote
No way Trump plays second fiddle to any one. And my guess is if he runs and does not win the nomination, he will claim it was stolen by RINO's in the party and that he is the true nominee.  A normal person with his money would then self fund a run as a third party, but Trump hates to use his own money.

I would love to see a three way primary between Trump and Desantis and either Pence or Cheney.

Why has no one mentioned the first proposed ticket, with Trump as President and DeSantis as VP - ready to become President for Trump's third term? Does anyone think a Trump-DeSantis ticket would fail?

I think it is highly unlikely DeSantis would take a VP spot.  Especially with Trump but heck stranger things have happened.

I don't believe for a second that trump has a chance of winning in 2024 unless the Democrats nominate someone worse than Trump which is extremely unlikely.  There are too many Democrats, Independents, and even Republicans who are of the "Anyone but Trump" camp.  Each new escapade convinces more people that this country is better off without the circus that surrounds Trump and his family.  I would prefer a choice other than Biden but we'll see.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: rightleft22 on August 18, 2022, 10:49:17 AM
Statistically it usually doesn't end well for anyone one working closely with Trump so only a fool would want the job. For VP he needs someone that will worship him and at the same time blend into the background unnoticed. 

Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 18, 2022, 11:02:32 AM
Sarah Palin comes to mind. Is MTG too loud for Trump? How about Boebert? Ted Cruz?  Josh Hawley? Andy Gosar?  Bigs? Dr Oz will probably be available.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 18, 2022, 11:35:58 AM
Well the Trump CFO pleads guilty and agrees to testify against the company.

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/top-trump-organization-executive-weissleberg-pleads-guilty-to-tax-fraud-144429978.html

15 counts of tax fraud.

I am sure Trump has never heard of this guy. He is just someone who works down the hall.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 18, 2022, 01:02:06 PM
Well we all know by know that there is no evidence of the FBI planting any thing at MAL.  Trump has the security footage and you know if there was any evidence of the accusations that Trump made he would have released it by now.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Mynnion on August 18, 2022, 01:41:55 PM
Quote
Well the Trump CFO pleads guilty and agrees to testify against the company.

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/top-trump-organization-executive-weissleberg-pleads-guilty-to-tax-fraud-144429978.html

15 counts of tax fraud.

I am sure Trump has never heard of this guy. He is just someone who works down the hall.

Was just readying the comments on Foxnews about this and it is amazing how many of the Law and Order crowd have no issue with his actions.
"I mean everybody does it" 
"All rich folks push the envelope" 
"no big deal"

These and lots more just like them.  Seems like a pretty good reason for increasing IRS enforcement.  Just think of how much more in taxes they can collect if "there are millions padding their returns"?



Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 18, 2022, 01:49:32 PM
And there are Republicans who say that the new IRS employees will target the average Joe. The average Joe is not worth auditing.

The high return audits are for those making half a million or more. Or people like Musk or Gates or Trump or Soros.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Wayward Son on August 18, 2022, 03:26:44 PM
50 percent of the taxpayers made 11.5 percent of the taxable income in 2019. (https://taxfoundation.org/publications/latest-federal-income-tax-data/#:~:text=The%20top%201%20percent%20(taxpayers,the%20bottom%2090%20percent%20combined.)

The top 1 percent made 20.1 percent of the taxable income in 2019.

What a complete waste of time it would be to go after the average taxpayer when you could go after the guy who makes 87 times more (on average)?

Unless, of course, you wanted fresh-squeezed turnip blood.  ;D
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: NobleHunter on August 18, 2022, 03:33:28 PM
Not to mention you can probably audit most of the 50% in 10 or 20 minutes.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Wayward Son on August 18, 2022, 05:09:05 PM
CMM talked to 18 officials in the Trump Administration, and they all deny there were any standing orders to declassify documents he took from the White House. (https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/18/politics/trump-claim-standing-order-declassify-nonsense-patently-false-former-officials/index.html)

Quote
18 former top Trump administration officials tell CNN they never heard any such order issued during their time working for Trump, and that they believe the claim to be patently false.

Several officials laughed at the notion. One senior administration official called it "bullsh*t." Two of Trump's former chiefs of staff went on the record to knock down the claim.

"Nothing approaching an order that foolish was ever given," said John Kelly, who served as Trump's chief of staff for 17 months from 2017 to 2019. "And I can't imagine anyone that worked at the White House after me that would have simply shrugged their shoulders and allowed that order to go forward without dying in the ditch trying to stop it."

Mick Mulvaney, who succeeded Kelly as acting White House chief of staff, also dismissed the idea and told CNN he was "not aware of a general standing order" during his tenure.

In addition, CNN spoke with former national security and intelligence officials as well as White House lawyers and Justice Department officials. Taken together, their tenure covers all four years of the Trump administration, and many served in positions where they would either be included in the declassification process, or at the very least, be aware of such orders. ...

"Total nonsense," one senior White House official said. "If that's true, where is the order with his signature on it? If that were the case, there would have been tremendous pushback from the Intel Community and DoD, which would almost certainly have become known to Intel and Armed Services Committees on the Hill."

Why didn't the Intel and Armed Services Committees know about his standing order? ;)
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 18, 2022, 08:42:22 PM
What Trump lied? Never.  All those people are Soros funded deep state Never Trumpers and are not to be believed.  Ignore them.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 19, 2022, 04:20:59 PM
Good lawyers are avoiding Trump.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/alan-dershowitz-says-every-reputable-184537570.html
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 20, 2022, 03:28:36 PM
Trump seems really upset that he is backing Dr Oz in PA.  Mitch is correct that when the Reps take a beating in the Senate this fall it will be due to a lack of good candidates running.

Trump supporters can maybe win the primary but they will lose in the general. Or at least in most states.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: jc44 on August 21, 2022, 06:35:56 AM
Trump seems really upset that he is backing Dr Oz in PA.  Mitch is correct that when the Reps take a beating in the Senate this fall it will be due to a lack of good candidates running.

Trump supporters can maybe win the primary but they will lose in the general. Or at least in most states.
I really, truly, hope you are correct. I just have this horrible feeling that come results day most of us here are going to be standing back going "how did that happen?" (and no, I don't believe it will have been successfully rigged by the GOP though they will of course try).
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: DJQuag on August 21, 2022, 08:39:38 AM
Trump seems really upset that he is backing Dr Oz in PA.  Mitch is correct that when the Reps take a beating in the Senate this fall it will be due to a lack of good candidates running.

Trump supporters can maybe win the primary but they will lose in the general. Or at least in most states.
I really, truly, hope you are correct. I just have this horrible feeling that come results day most of us here are going to be standing back going "how did that happen?" (and no, I don't believe it will have been successfully rigged by the GOP though they will of course try).

Reminds me of 2016. Me, fresh off the Brexit vote, warning everyone wearing their Hilary hats about how the populace might actually be stupider then you thought.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on August 23, 2022, 08:54:44 AM
Trump seems really upset that he is backing Dr Oz in PA.  Mitch is correct that when the Reps take a beating in the Senate this fall it will be due to a lack of good candidates running.

Trump supporters can maybe win the primary but they will lose in the general. Or at least in most states.
I really, truly, hope you are correct. I just have this horrible feeling that come results day most of us here are going to be standing back going "how did that happen?" (and no, I don't believe it will have been successfully rigged by the GOP though they will of course try).

Reminds me of 2016. Me, fresh off the Brexit vote, warning everyone wearing their Hilary hats about how the populace might actually be stupider then you thought.

Things are still looking up for Trump. Brian Stelter is gone, presumably for his own actions in attacking Trump endlessly. The networks are finally reacting to their loss in revenue and trying to fix a few things, because they must - not because they see the error in their ways.

The only party that thinks the people are stupid are the Dems and Never-Trumpers who believe they can disinform without getting caught. Fox News and Newsmax are reaping big commercial dollars in spite of the cancel culture doing all they can to block them, like they did OANN. That happens when ratings are high, which Fox News demonstrates. Most people prefer Newsmax, but they don't have the penetration of Fox, yet.

Disinforming is the action of the MSM and Leftwing cable outlets who only devote 10 or fifteen seconds all day to important stories and ignore all old-fashioned news gathering. In order not to be total idiot morons, those who want to get real news are forced to watch elsewhere.

Fired Brian Stelter could't resist a dig at new CNN boss Chris Licht in his final show by saying the network 'must remain strong' and patted himself on the back for his 'patriotic' role as media hall monitor. Almost everyday, Newsmax and Fox would show Stelter's own disinformation and show the real news that contradicted him. Even without commentary, the disinformation was provable. Same elsewhere.

Gutfeld has the highest rated shows on Cable and almost daily would put up Stelter's latest idiocy. It would be funny if it wasn't so sad.

The one thing about Dems which is laudatory, is their solidarity. The talking points are immediate and totally saturated. How many times have you heard the identical sloganeering on every left-wing show? I still remember the "Gravitas" used against Bush 43. It was on every show an every liberal network with total horizontal and vertical saturation for days, until the polls came out that said the people thought Bush had more "gravitas" than his opponent. "Gravitas" disappeared from the airways instantly.

Lemmings may follow carefully scripted clichés and talking points only up to it being slammed in their faces. When that happens, the Democrat talking heads ignore the old, discredited disinformation as if it never existed. The people, lemmings or not, do not forget. The idiot morons you see interviewed on the street may not be able to name the VP, but right-thinking people are not lemmings. In the past, they rarely took the effort to vote. Now, with Zuckerberg illegal ballot boxes and Democrat vote harvesting, The Dems are holding on to a slim (and misrepresented) majority - but they are a minority.

To anyone who disagrees with this, I ask you to look at a single donor who put imbecilic Prosecutors into office all over the country with his millions of dollars being thrown at them. How do you think all those bad prosecutors won their ballots? If you think it was their ideas and philosophies that put them in office, you are deluded. Once their idiocy is recognized - the people fight to get them recalled and thrown out. But the money just keeps on coming in, doesn't it? Let's see if any of those new IRS armed agents go after the Democrat donors.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 23, 2022, 02:10:34 PM
More examples of the Trump Admin trying to hide things.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trumps-team-told-ice-officials-152558170.html

Ordering ICE to delete records.  The most Transparent President ever. What is he trying to hide?
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 23, 2022, 07:25:26 PM
Well Trump's lawsuit to set up a Special Master seems to confuse the judge and most lawyers.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-appointed-judge-doesnt-know-210317967.html

It is almost like Trump has lawyers with no experience in upper level law.  I guess it must be true that all the good lawyers do not want to work for him since they like getting paid.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: TheDrake on August 23, 2022, 11:10:03 PM
Well Trump's lawsuit to set up a Special Master seems to confuse the judge and most lawyers.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-appointed-judge-doesnt-know-210317967.html

It is almost like Trump has lawyers with no experience in upper level law.  I guess it must be true that all the good lawyers do not want to work for him since they like getting paid.

There's no "almost" about it.

Quote
Trump's current legal team includes Christina Bobb, a former host on the right-wing One America News; Lindsey Halligan, a Florida insurance lawyer; Alina Habba, who was once the general counsel for a parking garage firm; and Evan Corcoran and James Trusty, both of whom are former federal prosecutors.

Other than the prosecutors, these people have no background in criminal or government lawsuits, or really any federal lawsuits.

Quote
Bobb’s prior legal experience at the federal level consists mainly of a handful of trademark infringement cases on behalf of CrossFit during a stint at a San Diego law firm. She did not respond to requests for comment.

Trump’s other lawyer currently based in Florida is Lindsey Halligan, whose practice, according to a professional biography, focuses on insurance claims at residential and commercial properties. She was admitted to the Florida bar in 2014. A search of federal court records found no filings under her name. She did not respond to requests for comment.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 24, 2022, 07:49:56 AM
I actually knew all that but wanted to see if some other members came to their defense talking about how great they were.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: DJQuag on August 24, 2022, 09:56:11 AM
Trump seems really upset that he is backing Dr Oz in PA.  Mitch is correct that when the Reps take a beating in the Senate this fall it will be due to a lack of good candidates running.

Trump supporters can maybe win the primary but they will lose in the general. Or at least in most states.
, The Dems are holding on to a slim (and misrepresented) majority - but they are a minority.


This is just laughable. The only reason conservatives still have a voice in government is down to two reasons. One, gerrymandering. Two, the fact Wyoming with it's half a million people has the same amount of Senators as California with it's 40 million. I can appreciate the reasons behind the Senate, but please don't pretend that conservatives and Republicans aren't outnumbered. That they only still hold what power they have through gerrymandering and outdated political rules.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: TheDrake on August 24, 2022, 11:29:36 AM
I actually knew all that but wanted to see if some other members came to their defense talking about how great they were.

I was pretty sure you were being sarcastic. No one can claim trump has had great lawyers except trump. I fully expect somebody to put dershowitz on parade shortly. Who defended trump on some relatively narrow points of law, and most assuredly didn't just write up trump's rant as a brief.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 24, 2022, 11:35:12 AM
I have heard several reasons why he is having a tough time getting lawyers.

First, he does not listen to them when they tell him to shut up. The purpose of the lawyer is to tell your side.  But Trump wants to tell his own side and make it the best, most grandest side ever.

Second, he has a history of not paying or at least not paying on time. Which is surprising considering how much money he has raised for his own defense.

Third, he does not take advice.  He knows he is smarter than every one else, so he just wants someone to agree with him, not tell him the truth.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: NobleHunter on August 24, 2022, 11:39:13 AM
It also seems like Trump has a reckless disregard for the law. Lawyers prefer their clients to have some awareness of when they're doing something illegal and the ability to refrain from doing it while under prosecutorial scrutiny.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 24, 2022, 12:32:59 PM
Yep the DOJ does not trust Trump's lawyers because he is so volatile. He may not tell his own lawyers the truth.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/doj-officials-cant-rely-trumps-152629296.html
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on August 31, 2022, 09:04:04 PM
Well Trump backed Sarah Palin lost in AK

https://www.yahoo.com/news/sarah-palin-loses-comeback-bid-002051026.html

It is just for the rest of the term and she will be in the running again in Nov for a full term.

But the Democrat, Mary Peltola,  won.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on September 01, 2022, 11:54:40 AM
Trump is finally handing over his financial records to the House.

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/1-house-panel-announces-agreement-135719344.html

3 years of delay. I wonder what he was hiding.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: TheDrake on September 01, 2022, 12:14:20 PM
Those *censored* mules, at it again in Alaska!
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on September 01, 2022, 12:16:31 PM
They are blaming the Ranked Choice voting that the people of AK approved in 2020.  This is the first election where it has been used.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: NobleHunter on September 01, 2022, 12:25:35 PM
Fortunately, there's another election in November which can be used to validate the results of this one.  Presumably, if a significant number of people failed to realize they need to rank their choices instead of just picking their preferred option, they'll know better next time. Arguing in December that voters just didn't understand the new system (and therefore failed to indicate their second choice) seems like a pretty good reason to discount those ballets in the second round.

The intent of ranked choice is to come up with a candidate the majority can live with to prevent selecting one with a unified base but that the majority despises.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: TheDrake on September 01, 2022, 12:41:25 PM
Fortunately, there's another election in November which can be used to validate the results of this one.  Presumably, if a significant number of people failed to realize they need to rank their choices instead of just picking their preferred option, they'll know better next time. Arguing in December that voters just didn't understand the new system (and therefore failed to indicate their second choice) seems like a pretty good reason to discount those ballets in the second round.

The intent of ranked choice is to come up with a candidate the majority can live with to prevent selecting one with a unified base but that the majority despises.

They don't have a leg to stand on. https://www.elections.alaska.gov/results/22SSPG/ElectionSummaryReportRPTS.pdf

So the two republican candidates added together, which you would expect in a ranked ballot, would have been 58% as first choice.

The missing 9%, however was clearly added to Petola's total. Meaning that the 27% of voters who ranked Begich (R) were never-Palin, and listed Peltola #2, and in fact the writeins went that way also.

91K wound up in the Peltola bin, and 85K went to Palin. Palin picked up significantly more on second ballot than Peltola, but not enough.

Voters weren't confused about the ballot, they said "I like Begich, but I'd rather have the Democrat than Palin" and this has made Republican heads spin because Democrats, after all, are soulless baby eating authoritarians who want to crush your freedom.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on September 01, 2022, 12:44:58 PM
This system would give someone like me a chance to vote for a real Republican (instead of a Trumpist) and then for someone else who did not support Trump.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: yossarian22c on September 01, 2022, 01:30:46 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIiaFMOfbwY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIiaFMOfbwY)

For wm. Or anyone who wants to hear funny stories about how Trump compulsively lies and cheats at golf.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on September 01, 2022, 01:40:20 PM
Oh his golf cheating is well known and documented.  Many players have said that he is good though, and he really did not have to cheat, but did it anyway.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: yossarian22c on September 01, 2022, 02:03:13 PM
Oh his golf cheating is well known and documented.  Many players have said that he is good though, and he really did not have to cheat, but did it anyway.

WM needs to hear about Trump's compulsive cheating and lying.

Best quote from the talk. The reporter asked people if they ever called Trump on his BS: he said Trump always gave the same response:
"I cheat on my wives, I cheat on my taxes, you don't think I'm going to cheat at golf at my own course."
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on September 01, 2022, 02:22:35 PM
Oath breaking by Trump does not matter to Wm.  Trump lying and betraying his wives is OK with him since the ex wives are happy with their divorce settlements.

Of course someone said that Ivanna's NDA ended after 30 years of the divorce and that was this year. So it could be said her death was suspicious.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: TheDrake on September 01, 2022, 03:26:43 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIiaFMOfbwY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIiaFMOfbwY)

For wm. Or anyone who wants to hear funny stories about how Trump compulsively lies and cheats at golf.

I read the book, it gives a lot of insight into his reckless disregard for any rules. He's been observed to take someone else's ball and chuck it so they won't beat him.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: TheDrake on September 07, 2022, 09:23:53 AM
Trump headed for another loss in Massachusetts.

Quote
“Geoff is a proven fighter who successfully pushes back on the ultraliberal extremists,” Trump said on behalf of Diehl during the tele-rally. “He’ll rule your state with an iron fist, and he’ll do what has to be done.”
As the GOP Senate nominee in 2018, Diehl lost to Warren by 24 percentage points. Trump lost Massachusetts to Biden by more than 33 percentage points.[/url]

I'm not sure ruling with an iron fist will appeal to citizens of the Commonwealth that threw tea into the harbor.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on September 08, 2022, 12:41:27 PM
Oh his golf cheating is well known and documented.  Many players have said that he is good though, and he really did not have to cheat, but did it anyway.

WM needs to hear about Trump's compulsive cheating and lying.

Best quote from the talk. The reporter asked people if they ever called Trump on his BS: he said Trump always gave the same response:
"I cheat on my wives, I cheat on my taxes, you don't think I'm going to cheat at golf at my own course."

I don't now much about golf, nor Trump's ability in it. I looked up Jack Nicklaus' take on him https://www.sportingnews.com/us/golf/news/donald-trump-golf-handicap-liv-golf-pro-am/bzmsm39uc1k76acchaubrwj6. I'm not much impressed by Rick Reilly's credentials, because I've never heard of him, and so many Trump-haters make up so much. I've got the book on order to fix my ignorance on it, but don't expect too much, based on the tendency of all Trump haters to blatantly lie. I will take Nicklaus's view of his golf game, for now.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: NobleHunter on September 08, 2022, 12:53:50 PM
That link doesn't contradict "Many players have said that he is good though, and he really did not have to cheat, but did it anyway."
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: yossarian22c on September 08, 2022, 01:11:12 PM
...
I don't now much about golf, nor Trump's ability in it. I looked up Jack Nicklaus' take on him https://www.sportingnews.com/us/golf/news/donald-trump-golf-handicap-liv-golf-pro-am/bzmsm39uc1k76acchaubrwj6. I'm not much impressed by Rick Reilly's credentials, because I've never heard of him, and so many Trump-haters make up so much. I've got the book on order to fix my ignorance on it, but don't expect too much, based on the tendency of all Trump haters to blatantly lie. I will take Nicklaus's view of his golf game, for now.

Rick Reilly doesn't make the claim Trump is a bad golfer. He makes the claim Trump compulsively and blatantly cheats at golf. Trump can be a good golfer and still feel the need to compulsively cheat. That's all Reilly is saying. That Trump feels no need to follow the rules and will cheat people to their face even when they are betting money on the game.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on September 08, 2022, 01:16:19 PM
That is the point. Trump cheats in many aspects of his life when he does not need to. He has beautiful wives, but cheats on them. He makes millions, maybe billions, but cheats on his financials. He is a good golfer, but cheats there as well. it is part of his personality.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on September 09, 2022, 09:53:04 AM
Well Trump got his lawsuit against Clinton tossed today.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/judge-dismisses-trump-lawsuit-against-124420268.html

Part of the judges decision.

Trump in March had sued Clinton, who was the 2016 Democratic presidential nominee, and several other Democrats alleging "racketeering," a "conspiracy to commit injurious falsehood" and other claims in a 108-page lawsuit that echoed the long list of grievances he repeatedly aired during his four years in the White House after beating Clinton.

He had sought compensatory and punitive damages, saying he had incurred more than $24 million in "defense costs, legal fees, and related expenses."

In his ruling, Middlebrooks said Trump had waited too long to file his complaint by exceeding the legal statute of limitations for his claims and that he failed to make his case that he was harmed by any falsehoods, noting that many of the statements made by the defendants were "plainly protected by the First Amendment" of the U.S. Constitution.

If only Trump had good lawyers who knew how to file things on time.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Wayward Son on September 09, 2022, 11:51:43 AM
Oh, msquared, it was far more than that.  You should read the judge's actual ruling (https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.flsd.610157/gov.uscourts.flsd.610157.267.0.pdf), at least where he rules on Trump's amendment to his original complaint, starting on page 63.

Quote
Plaintiff requests that, in the event I “find[] the Complaint inadequate in any respect,” I grant him leave to amend pursuant to Federal Rule of Civil Procedure 15(a). ...
It is true that under Rule 15 “[t]he court should freely give leave when justice so requires.” ... But a district court need not allow amendment “where amendment would be futile.” ... It is not simply that I find the Amended Complaint “inadequate in any respect”; it is inadequate in nearly every respect. Defendants presented substantively identical arguments in support of dismissal in the earlier round of briefing on Plaintiff’s original Complaint. ... But despite this briefing, Plaintiff’s Amended Complaint failed to cure any of the deficiencies. Instead, Plaintiff added eighty new pages of largely irrelevant
allegations that did nothing to salvage the legal sufficiency of his claims. The inadequacies with Plaintiff’s Amended Complaint are not “merely issues of technical pleading,” as Plaintiff contends, but fatal substantive defects that preclude Plaintiff from proceeding under any of the theories he has presented. At its core, the problem with Plaintiff’s Amended Complaint is that Plaintiff is not attempting to seek redress for any legal harm; instead, he is seeking to flaunt a two-hundred-page political manifesto outlining his grievances against those that have opposed him, and this Court is not the appropriate forum.

C'mon, Judge, tell us how you really feel.  ;D
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on September 09, 2022, 02:46:47 PM
A former Trump lawyer who defended Trump in the first impeachment.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trumps-former-white-house-lawyer-174317033.html

The telling quote:

"My personal view is that it's less a character issue than a personality defect," Cobb said. "I believe former President Trump to be a deeply wounded narcissist, and he is often incapable of acting other than in his perceived self-interest, or for revenge. I think those are the two compelling instincts that guide his actions."
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on September 09, 2022, 08:17:26 PM
Yeah, the judge ruled against the Trump motion to bring suit against Clinton - primarily because it's too old. Since the Clinton lie about Russia! Russia! Russia! is still being used in news to attack Trump, how exactly is the crime not ongoing? Since it truly is, and since the judge and Ty Cobb both linked it with the idea that the 2020 vote was scammed, the judge's argument seems to miss the point - and aim at something else entirely.

Look, perhaps this is too simple for apologists to get. Hillary tried to affect the election by paying for the Steele Dossier and Sussman's allegation about the Alfabank.. The Hillary advocates in the DOJ protected her before and after the election and continued the attack. Is there anyone who doesn't understand that? She knew and kept it up after the truth hit her square in the face.

But she wasn't the only one. Look at the 2020 election, when the laptop was hidden away for months before the election. They couldn't even claim they held up to not affect the election, there was plenty of time. Nor only did the DOJ and the FBI not fulfill their duties and reveal the results of the investigate of the laptop, but they also blocked news sources and social media from even discussing it.

Then there was Big Pharma ready to distribute vaccine shots before the election, and the Clintonite Fauci, the CDC and others requested they hood off the announcement that the vaccines were ready until after the election, so Trump couldn't showcase the success of Operation Warp Speed.

The election interfering was not just the 2,000 Mules accusations, it was all the above. No one really argues that, do they?
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Tom on September 09, 2022, 08:24:49 PM
Out of interest, William, what do you think the "Russia, Russia, Russia" lie actually was?

----------

By the way, does this mean that you're now conceding that the 2000 Mules allegations are a bunch of phooey, and asking us to look at different phooey?
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Wayward Son on September 09, 2022, 08:47:08 PM
Quote
Yeah, the judge ruled against the Trump motion to bring suit against Clinton - primarily because it's too old.

Primarily because it is too old?

In the excerpt I quoted, the judge basically said, "If I found the Complaint lacking in any respect, you can file an amendment."  So she did find something lacking.

They filed an amendment to cover the things she found lacking.  And, in her own words, "It is not simply that I find the Amended Complaint “inadequate in any respect”; it is inadequate in nearly every respect."  (Emphasis from the judge.)

In fact, here is what the Judge said was the core problem: "At its core, the problem with Plaintiff’s Amended Complaint is that Plaintiff is not attempting to seek redress for any legal harm; instead, he is seeking to flaunt a two-hundred-page political manifesto outlining his grievances against those that have opposed him, and this Court is not the appropriate forum."

If the amendment was to address the inadequacies of the original petition, and the amendment not only did not address those inadequacies but "presented substantively identical arguments in support of dismissal in the earlier round of briefing on Plaintiff’s original Complaint" and "failed to cure any of the deficiencies," how do you come to the conclusion that the dismissal was "primarily because it was too old?"  ;D

You don't write all that just because a complaint was "too old."  You write that because the whole thing was a pile of horse poop from the beginning. 

It's all in front of you, William.  Open your eyes and read it, instead of just listening to those who tell you what you want to hear.  ::)
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: TheDrake on September 10, 2022, 10:26:11 AM
So a German company (Pfizer) delayed distribution of their vaccine to their own country, and giving up massive revenues for weeks if not months, in an effort to influence American elections? It's not like American distribution lagged European distribution. You do know there are other countries, don't you wm?
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on September 10, 2022, 11:03:53 AM
It just proves the lengths the Gates/Soros cabal would go to damage Trump.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on September 14, 2022, 09:27:38 AM
Well it looks like Durham's inquiry is about run out of steam with very little to show.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/durham-inquiry-appears-wind-down-122137208.html
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on September 15, 2022, 12:05:51 PM
Meadows has turned over documents to the DOJ.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/ap-source-meadows-complies-justice-134605012.html
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Grant on September 15, 2022, 12:55:26 PM
Meadows has turned over documents to the DOJ.

Meh.  The story linked said he had already turned the same documents over to the Jan 6 committee, and has not turned over any documents he believes are subject to executive privilege. Call me underwhelmed.   I know people are already screaming "Meadows has turned on T*&%^", but it's nothing new really. 
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on September 21, 2022, 11:56:23 AM
And the fraud case in NY gets filed.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/letitia-james-sues-trump-family-business-fraud-154641833.html
Star witness is Trump Organization CFO.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Crunch on September 21, 2022, 02:08:04 PM
Yeah, this time the walls are closing in! . For real this time! :o

Trump is the current front running political opponent. DeSantis is second. I'm sure we all love the idea of using the DOJ to target your political opponents. Right? Very democratic.

I truly hope Trump re-takes the Whitehouse just so I can see you guys lose the last failing remnants of your sanity.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on September 21, 2022, 02:21:49 PM
Except this is in the state courts, not Federal, so the DOJ has nothing to do with it.  And the NY case has been going on for years since Trump stonewalled it while he was in office as well as since.
Just like the case in GA is a state case and not Federal.

The NY AG was targeting Trump for years, not just since Biden got elected.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: rightleft22 on September 21, 2022, 03:53:56 PM
Trumps shady doings were suspected long before he became political.
That his followers don't care and or prefer to pretend its not so is another matter 
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Tom on September 21, 2022, 08:10:19 PM
Partial stay of Cannon's order was granted re: the documents still identified as classified, per DOJ request. The ruling is well-written, clear, and rips Cannon's reasoning to shreds in a very thorough but polite way.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on September 21, 2022, 08:15:22 PM
Two of the three judges on the panel were appointed by Trump.

Unanimous decision.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/appeals-panel-says-judge-erred-234253063.html
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Ouija Nightmare on September 22, 2022, 02:15:27 PM
Two of the three judges on the panel were appointed by Trump.

Unanimous decision.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/appeals-panel-says-judge-erred-234253063.html


There was one particular bit from that presented itself to me.

Quote

While Cannon speculated in her ruling that allowing investigators continued access to the documents could result in leaks of their contents, the appeals panel brushed aside that concern.

“Permitting the United States to retain the documents does not suggest that they will be released; indeed, a purpose of the United States’s efforts in investigating the recovered classified documents is to limit unauthorized disclosure of the information they contain,” the appeals judges wrote. “Not only that, but any authorized official who makes an improper disclosure risks her own criminal liability.”

Let me get this right. Cannon was speculating that investigators might leak this “declassified” information?

Anyone else see the trouble with this?

Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on September 28, 2022, 06:17:46 PM
...
I don't now much about golf, nor Trump's ability in it. I looked up Jack Nicklaus' take on him https://www.sportingnews.com/us/golf/news/donald-trump-golf-handicap-liv-golf-pro-am/bzmsm39uc1k76acchaubrwj6. I'm not much impressed by Rick Reilly's credentials, because I've never heard of him, and so many Trump-haters make up so much. I've got the book on order to fix my ignorance on it, but don't expect too much, based on the tendency of all Trump haters to blatantly lie. I will take Nicklaus's view of his golf game, for now.

Rick Reilly doesn't make the claim Trump is a bad golfer. He makes the claim Trump compulsively and blatantly cheats at golf. Trump can be a good golfer and still feel the need to compulsively cheat. That's all Reilly is saying. That Trump feels no need to follow the rules and will cheat people to their face even when they are betting money on the game.

The latest news is that Leftist's heads are exploding because Golf Digest announced the rankings of past Presidents, and gave Trump the top ranking of 2.8. JFK was 7, George H. W .Bush was was 11. Ford, Clinton, and Nixon were 12, Obama was 13. George W. Bush was 15, and Ike was 18. The biggest complaint is not how high the former president is rated - but that Biden was given second place at 6.7. While Reilly argued the magazine's ratings are off, golf reporters say it is hard to believe anything he says, He has been caught outright lying and getting facts seriously wrong in his past reporting.

Now that I've read his book, Commander in Cheat, I see where he's coming from. He thinks Golf is the ultimate religion - and any disregard for tournament rules within the sport is heinous. Many think Golf is just a rich man's game and could care less how golfers playing for the fun of it behave on the links. Professional golfers have said Trump is a good golfer, but the 2.8 may be a bit too high. As was Biden's, who hasn't golfed much. Reilly said he may have been a six a long time ago.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: TheDrake on September 28, 2022, 06:30:32 PM
It's not really tournament rules, its etiquette. You don't have to be in a tournament to know that you NEVER EVER advance beyond the away golfer, unless you are pals and you are on the opposite side of the fairway. You'll get thrown out of any club in the country for repeatedly driving your cart onto the green, unless you happen to own the place. You replace your divots (or let your caddy do it, if you're rich), you certainly don't interfere with someone else's ball. Trust me when I say that any golfer who got paired up with someone playing like Trump on a public municipal course would get pissed off. I don't think that you'd put up with someone grabbing your ball and throwing it in the sand trap, would you? If you're playing pool for the fun of it, is it okay if your opponent just picks a ball up off the table and drops it in a hole?

I'm impressed you read the book, though, wm.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on September 28, 2022, 07:30:43 PM
Wm as was have said, Trump is very likely a good golfer.  He has time to practice and locations to do so on. He has access to pros to teach him.

The fact his he cheats even when he does not have to, even in friendly games. He has no honor.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: TheDrake on October 13, 2022, 03:37:05 PM
TRUMP, DONALD J. V. UNITED STATES
The application to vacate the stay entered by the United
States Court of Appeals for the Eleventh Circuit on September 21,
2022, presented to Justice Thomas and by him referred to the
Court is denied.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on October 13, 2022, 03:47:46 PM
Those damn disloyal judges. He put them on the Court to protect himself and this is how they give back?
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: yossarian22c on October 19, 2022, 08:24:06 AM
And the Durham probe despite running twice as long as the Mueller probe strikes out again.

https://www.npr.org/2022/10/18/1129756772/steele-dossier-igor-danchenko-aquitted (https://www.npr.org/2022/10/18/1129756772/steele-dossier-igor-danchenko-aquitted)

Quote
A jury on Tuesday acquitted on all counts a think tank analyst accused of lying to the FBI about his role in the creation of a discredited dossier about former President Donald Trump.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on October 19, 2022, 08:47:51 AM
Trump's Special Master says Trump's lawyers are not giving evidence for his claims of privilege over the documents.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/where-beef-special-master-says-220036291.html

Of course in all of these filings his lawyers have never claimed that he declassified anything. Not that that really matters. What matters is the Trump was in possession of Government documents that did not belong to him and he tried to hide them and not return them when asked.

One telling comment

"On the call, Dearie specifically asked Trump’s lawyers to give him a better sense of how one document, for instance, could both be subject to executive privilege – a designation applying to presidential records – and simultaneously be a non-governmental, personal document."

Trump wants it both ways.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on October 19, 2022, 09:46:28 PM
Trump and family wanted a new judge in the NY fraud case but they got turned down.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trumps-really-really-wanted-judge-005208569.html
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on October 20, 2022, 07:57:31 AM
A Federal judge has determined that Trump lied under oath in his voter fraud claims in GA.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/federal-judge-finds-trump-lied-000120999.html
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on October 21, 2022, 11:19:30 AM
Trumps buddy Bannon gets 4 months for contempt of Congress.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/steve-bannon-sentenced-4-months-150236105.html

Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on October 26, 2022, 12:41:09 PM
Meadows has to testify in GA election probe.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/judge-orders-meadows-testify-georgia-154224432.html
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: rightleft22 on October 26, 2022, 01:02:27 PM
Trumps buddy Bannon gets 4 months for contempt of Congress.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/steve-bannon-sentenced-4-months-150236105.html

Bannon is a scary dude I'm not sure what he really believes in. Is he a nihilist and or anarchist? When I hear him talk the impression I get is that he wants to burn it all down.
To avoid his Fear that things are going to "end" he has decided to initiate the burning?
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on November 03, 2022, 07:30:45 PM
Well the judge in the NY fraud case is going to appoint a monitor for the Trump Organization to make sure they do not do anything suspicious.

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/judge-agrees-appoint-monitor-trump-210643462.html

Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on November 03, 2022, 08:18:09 PM
Trump filed a lawsuit in FL against the AG of NY suing the Trump Org trying to stop the placement of a monitor.

Even his own legal team thought it was frivolous bordering on malpractice.

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/trump-bucked-advice-legal-team-231525352.html

What? Trump wanting his lawyers to do something that might be malpractice? How long have these people worked for him?
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: yossarian22c on November 03, 2022, 09:15:50 PM
Trump filed a lawsuit in FL against the AG of NY suing the Trump Org trying to stop the placement of a monitor.

Even his own legal team thought it was frivolous bordering on malpractice.

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/trump-bucked-advice-legal-team-231525352.html

What? Trump wanting his lawyers to do something that might be malpractice? How long have these people worked for him?

Not long. They haven’t been disbarred yet.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on November 09, 2022, 05:46:27 PM
Trump does not get to hold up the watchdog for his company in NY.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-cannot-delay-watchdog-company-215012671.html

I guess it does not matter when you are spending someone else's money but I do not think he has won a single appeal or request.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on November 10, 2022, 08:29:54 PM
Trumps frivolous law suit against HRC has had some results. Trump's attorneys have been sanctioned for bringing the suit.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-lawyers-sanctioned-judge-clinton-220612436.html
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on November 11, 2022, 10:25:08 PM
So in the defamation suit by E Jean Carroll  Trump has been saying that he said what he did as President so he can not be prosecuted and the Gov must defend him.

The issue is he has now said the same thing about her when he is not President so she is suing him for those comments as well.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-rape-accuser-plans-defamation-213942459.html

He just is not able to keep his mouth shut.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on November 14, 2022, 08:10:14 PM
Trump Corp Controller has been declared a hostile witness for the prosecution.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-controller-declared-hostile-witness-214900267.html
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Wayward Son on November 16, 2022, 09:57:54 AM
Not technically a loss, but nobody could possibly call this a "win," or anything in the furthest vicinity of one.  ;D

The New York Post's front-page covering Trump's announcement to run for President again. (https://politicalwire.com/2022/11/16/page-26/)
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on November 16, 2022, 12:35:23 PM
Flynn must testify in GA

https://www.yahoo.com/news/judge-says-michael-flynn-must-214744063.html
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on November 17, 2022, 01:44:52 PM
Well the Trump CFO just threw Trump under the bus

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/trump-money-man-just-linked-231806340.html

Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on November 20, 2022, 10:58:10 AM
And again.

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/trump-org-exec-just-dropped-143005842.html

Trump, and his kids, new and approved the tax fraud.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: TheDrake on November 20, 2022, 03:04:34 PM
And again.

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/trump-org-exec-just-dropped-143005842.html

Trump, and his kids, new and approved the tax fraud.

I'm shocked. 😲
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on November 20, 2022, 06:23:55 PM
Trumps frivolous law suit against HRC has had some results. Trump's attorneys have been sanctioned for bringing the suit.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-lawyers-sanctioned-judge-clinton-220612436.html

The judge wrote: “Thirty-one individuals and organizations were summoned to court, forced to hire lawyers to defend against frivolous claims. The only common thread against them was Mr. Trump’s animus.”

Copy and paste that statement so that when the GOP accusations against the weaponized DOJ and Dem collusion become real, you may see true justice reappear. We are all tired of the whole world calling us a third-world tyrannical despot-driven country because of this misuse of honesty and truth. The sad part is how so many Dem apologist will never admit their culpability. Six years of unending lies, accusations, and unfair attacks against anyone (not just Trump) who objects to the Democrat war against truth. Explain to us the bankruptcy of General Flynn for the cost of his defense, when he was innocent from day one. ...or all the actionable but ignored lies to the FISA Courts to spy on anything Trump.

Just more proof of their rationalization that the ends justifiy the means.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: wmLambert on November 20, 2022, 06:30:09 PM
Does anyone here disagree that the Biden Crime Family is guilty? ...Does anyone claim Tony Bobulinski did not provide proof that Joe was personally involved? Will any of you apologize if they are all found guilty?
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on November 20, 2022, 06:32:34 PM
Will you disagree that the Trump Crime Family is guilty? I mean his CFO is guilty of fraud.  He has plead it. And Trump and his family knew.

Who in the Biden family has plead guilty or been charged?
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on November 20, 2022, 06:33:51 PM
I think Flynn was found guilty.  And then was pardoned by Trump. Or at least in accepting the pardon he accepts that he was guilty, which is precedent from the USSC.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Tom on November 20, 2022, 08:40:59 PM
What are you saying the Bidens are guilty of, exactly?
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on November 20, 2022, 09:00:10 PM
Wm

Will you apologize if Trump and any of his family is found guilty or pleads guilty? Or would any of those convictions/pleas be farce? Because if you are not willing to accept, on either a state or Federal level, any of the court results from the ongoing issues now, why should we accept anything you say?
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: TheDrake on November 20, 2022, 09:03:30 PM
What are you saying the Bidens are guilty of, exactly?

Eating babies. Masterminding pedophilia rings. Acting as Chinese agents. You know, treason on down. Stuff that everyone would agree with, except lying Democrats who secretly know the Biden family is sick and twisted but won't admit it because they are trying to replace whites and turn everyone gay.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: TheDrake on November 21, 2022, 10:46:53 AM
You mean, the Bobulinski who's evidence couldn't even convince Fox News?

Quote
Fox News has reviewed emails from Bobulinski related to the venture — and they don't show that the elder Biden had business dealings with SinoHawk Holdings, or took any payments from them or the Chinese.

or the Wall Street Journal?

Quote
Bobulinski provided text messages and emails related to his venture to The Wall Street Journal, mainly from the spring and summer of 2017, which don't show Hunter or James Biden discussing Joe Biden's purported role.

and

Quote
according to separate emails obtained by Fox News, Bobulinski states there are no other members besides Hunter Biden, Jim Biden, Rob Walker, James Gillar and Anthony Bobulinski, regarding the shareholding structure, and records for all stages of company negotiations show no role for Joe Biden.

Joe Biden, master criminal boss but has severe dementia. Do you even see how non-sensical the various criticisms of Biden are when combined?
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: TheDrake on November 22, 2022, 02:52:32 PM
Quote
The Supreme Court on Tuesday denied former president Donald Trump’s efforts to block the release of his tax records to a congressional committee that has sought the information for years.
The court’s order means that the Treasury Department may quickly hand over six years of tax records from Trump and some of his companies to the House Ways and Means Committee.
There were no recorded dissents in the court’s order.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on November 22, 2022, 02:58:10 PM
it's almost like Congress had the law on their side.

Trump will finally keep a campaign promise from 2015 and release his taxes.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on November 22, 2022, 02:59:34 PM
And no dissents by the judges he put on the court. Now of course, how long before he says he is disappointed in them and that they are all out to get him.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on November 22, 2022, 03:31:50 PM
Lindsay Graham testified in GA today.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/us-sen-lindsey-graham-questioned-201115975.html
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: yossarian22c on November 22, 2022, 03:48:52 PM
Lindsay Graham testified in GA today.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/us-sen-lindsey-graham-questioned-201115975.html

I wonder how many times he pled the 5th or answered "I don't recall".
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on November 22, 2022, 08:27:55 PM
The Special Master may be out.  No ruling yet but the Court of Appeals looks like it might reverse the decision to appoint the Special Master.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/us-justice-department-seeks-void-080044293.html

Not that the Special Master has helped Trump other than delay things.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on November 23, 2022, 09:02:35 AM
And Trump has his usual morning melt down over the SC decision.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/donald-trump-reacts-supreme-court-095920812.html

Even when no Justice hints that they might have supported him, he calls them basically wrong. Even the 3 he put on the Court.

He just does not get it. When you lose in a court of law it does not mean it was corrupt. It means you were wrong.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: TheDrake on November 23, 2022, 09:33:22 AM
Yes, Donald, it sets a terrible precedent of making tax records of presidents available to the public. Then he goes on to ask if Biden is going to get treated the same way. I mean, I know he's separated himself from reality, but that's next level. Biden has already voluntarily released those records, you know, like the precedent set after Nixon, IIRC
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on November 23, 2022, 09:53:36 AM
What was unprecedented  was his not releasing his tax returns before 2016.

I do not think he realizes that these unprecedented actions are caused by his unprecedented actions. If had released his tax returns, if he had not tried to cause an insurrection, if he had not tried to overturn the election, if he had not taken Gov documents, if he had not allowed his company to commit fraud, most of this would never have happened.

He could kill someone and then say it was unprecedented for a former President to be charged with murder. Never happened before.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on November 23, 2022, 10:56:38 AM
In 2009 and 2010 Trump lost almost $1 Billion.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/stand-accountant-confirms-trump-claimed-001106247.html

Such a wonderful business man.  Of course he was able to claim those losses in future years and not pay any taxes for years to come.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Fenring on November 23, 2022, 11:42:01 AM
To be fair, anyone in real estate would have been facing extreme swings on the balance sheet between 2007-2008 and even in the couple of years following. The lag in employment and other pricing could well have extended to a couple of years after the proximal incident of the GFC.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on November 23, 2022, 11:44:25 AM
But Trump is a business man like no other. I would think he would be smart enough to do better than every one else.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Mynnion on November 23, 2022, 12:35:36 PM
Quote
To be fair, anyone in real estate would have been facing extreme swings on the balance sheet between 2007-2008 and even in the couple of years following. The lag in employment and other pricing could well have extended to a couple of years after the proximal incident of the GFC.

There certainly was a bubble but he'd only take a loss if he sold.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: TheDrake on November 23, 2022, 12:53:46 PM
To be fair, anyone in real estate would have been facing extreme swings on the balance sheet between 2007-2008 and even in the couple of years following. The lag in employment and other pricing could well have extended to a couple of years after the proximal incident of the GFC.

It's not so much that he had losses. It's him claiming that he didn't, and losing money for a decade, not just in the crash. The other issue is what he declared as wealth when trying to raise funds.

NEW YORK (AP) — Donald Trump reported losses on his tax returns every year for a decade, including nearly $700 million in 2009 and $200 million in 2010, his longtime accountant testified Tuesday, confirming long-held suspicions about the former president’s tax practices.

Donald Bender, a partner at Mazars USA LLP who spent years preparing Trump’s personal tax returns, said Trump’s reported losses from 2009 to 2018 included net operating losses from some of the many businesses he owns through his Trump Organization.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: rightleft22 on November 23, 2022, 01:12:11 PM
As a immature strategic optimist Trump is able to view any 'Loss' as a Win and not bother with the details. It is unlikely that Trump ever learns anything from his failures as their can't be any.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Fenring on November 23, 2022, 04:44:29 PM
Quote
To be fair, anyone in real estate would have been facing extreme swings on the balance sheet between 2007-2008 and even in the couple of years following. The lag in employment and other pricing could well have extended to a couple of years after the proximal incident of the GFC.

There certainly was a bubble but he'd only take a loss if he sold.

Losses in real estate fair value end up on the quarterly balance sheets, and believe it or not can appear as a revenue loss, so that a company with positive cash flow that happens to be in the middle of a market deflation could well show extreme net income losses in their statements. That is in fact happening to many real estate companies right now (revenues up, fair value down, huge deductions in income are calculated in). The main reason for it being done this way is that in real estate the capital value of a building is a huge proportion of its value, not just the cash revenues. Sometimes you'd go into a venture knowing you're cash flow negative and not caring because of the capital appreciation (see: mortgage market crisis for extreme example of this). Therefore is it actually logical that fair value losses would be reported as revenue losses even if you are doing well for cash in hand. It's possible for someone like Trump, for instance, to be making a lot of money while reporting losses, and this is neither illegal nor unethical (assuming this is all he did). Given that he's into casinos, Russia, and other stuff, it's more than likely all the accounting mumbo jumbo is used to hide shady things. I'm just addressing your point that you'd only post losses if you sell, which is true in equities but not in real estate.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on November 29, 2022, 01:31:31 PM
Well another loss for Trump.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-doesnt-absolute-immunity-over-171331696.html

They just keep piling up. It's almost like his legal team does not know what they are doing.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Ouija Nightmare on November 29, 2022, 01:41:57 PM
Well another loss for Trump.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-doesnt-absolute-immunity-over-171331696.html

They just keep piling up. It's almost like his legal team does not know what they are doing.

It’s almost like when you repeated and flagrantly break the law there’s only so much legal slight of hand can manage before a seasoned Judge.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on November 29, 2022, 01:58:51 PM
Looks like Trump is going to lose the Special Master his pet judge put into place.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-might-face-worst-nightmare-094353886.html
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on November 30, 2022, 01:07:56 PM
South Carolina SC says Meadows must testify in GA inquiry.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/mark-meadows-must-testify-georgia-173449575.html

One comment that seems to show up time and time again in these decisions " that it found his arguments “manifestly without merit.”"

Court after court has found the arguments by Trump and his people to be with out merit. And not just a little bit with out merit. 
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on December 01, 2022, 12:57:35 PM
Trump's lawyers keep failing to follow the rules in the NY fraud case.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-org-defense-lawyer-scolded-170547775.html

Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Wayward Son on December 01, 2022, 04:43:39 PM
It's part of their legal strategy.

The lawyers plan on appealing the decisions on the grounds that Trump's legal counsels were incompetent. ;)  ;D
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: rightleft22 on December 01, 2022, 05:16:36 PM
The lawyers think their on a episode of the Good Fight

Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on December 01, 2022, 08:02:41 PM
Special Master decision over turned.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/appeals-court-overturns-special-master-225940461.html

Best line in the decision.

"The law is clear," the three-judge panel of the 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals ruled. "We cannot write a rule that allows any subject of a search warrant to block government investigations after the execution of the warrant. Nor can we write a rule that allows only former presidents to do so."
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on December 02, 2022, 02:13:56 PM
Trump White House Counsel Pat Cipollone and deputy Pat Philbin testified to a DC Grand Jury today.

https://www.yahoo.com/gma/trump-white-house-counsel-pat-181200191.html
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on December 05, 2022, 10:55:42 AM
Well Trump got an almost $20 million loan and did not disclose it.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-had-hidden-19-8-125434457.html

Got the loan during his run and paid it off after he won, but no one is quite sure how it got paid off.

One line from the article.

Such loans are largely reported on an honor system because the U.S. Office of Government Ethics has neither the resources nor the power to delve into a president’s assets.

“If someone does not disclose a loan, OGE has no way to know,” said Walter Shaub, who ran that agency when Trump took office.

Don Fox, who once also headed the office, told Forbes:“The system is kind of predicated upon people actually following a law because they want to follow the law.”

And we all know how little Trump likes to follow the law when it comes to money.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Lloyd Perna on December 05, 2022, 11:15:07 AM
You missed a very important part of the article you linked.

Quote
Trump may have skirted disclosure laws and not committed an outright violation because the loan was on the books of his company, the Trump Organization, and not identified as a personal loan, Forbes noted.

The whole article is ridiculous.  He "Hid" a loan by failing to disclose the loan he was not required to disclose because it wasn't actually his loan.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on December 05, 2022, 11:21:52 AM
Well as the article says, it is the Honor system and we know Trump is with out honor.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: TheDrake on December 05, 2022, 11:23:42 AM
You missed a very important part of the article you linked.

Quote
Trump may have skirted disclosure laws and not committed an outright violation because the loan was on the books of his company, the Trump Organization, and not identified as a personal loan, Forbes noted.

The whole article is ridiculous.  He "Hid" a loan by failing to disclose the loan he was not required to disclose because it wasn't actually his loan.

He's definitely good at arranging shell companies, sham charities and other ways to hide payments, like the ones made to porn stars. Legal it might be. Ethical? Not on your life.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: Lloyd Perna on December 05, 2022, 11:52:23 AM
I'm sure you will be just as outraged when we find out next year that Biden didn't disclose his business relationships with his Son's Companies.  Right? 
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: TheDrake on December 05, 2022, 04:08:31 PM
I'm sure you will be just as outraged when we find out next year that Biden didn't disclose his business relationships with his Son's Companies.  Right?

How much you want to bet we don't find out next year? Because Biden didn't have anything to do with his son's business dealings and never received any money.

But yes, given your hypothetical, I would also call Biden unethical, if you and your right wing pals could ever manage a scrap of proof beyond, "a guy said the laptop said that Biden was the big guy". If Biden is shady, and he might be, he's in politics, he's way more skilled at it, running for senator, vp, and president with primary and general opponents, and nobody has been able to reveal the supposed dirt.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on December 05, 2022, 04:15:52 PM
They have the proof in a drawer along with Obama's birth certificate and the fraud evidence for 2020.
Title: Re: Trump looses again
Post by: msquared on December 06, 2022, 04:24:56 PM
Trump companies guilty on all charges.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-companies-convicted-charges-manhattan-205808953.html

That did not take long.

I guess we can now officially call them the Trump Crime Family since Trump and his kids were all directly involved. I wonder if they will go after those 4 now?