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General Category => General Comments => Topic started by: Wayward Son on July 15, 2019, 03:59:34 PM

Title: Our Racist President
Post by: Wayward Son on July 15, 2019, 03:59:34 PM
For anyone who gave Trump the benefit of the doubt about being racist, let them go.  As you've probably heard, his tweets on Sunday removed all doubt: (https://www.electoral-vote.com/evp2019/Pres/Maps/Jul15.html#item-1)

Quote
So interesting to see 'Progressive' Democrat Congresswomen, who originally came from countries whose governments are a complete and total catastrophe, the worst, most corrupt and inept anywhere in the world (if they even have a functioning government at all), now loudly and viciously telling the people of the United States, the greatest and most powerful Nation on earth, how our government is to be run. Why don’t they go back and help fix the totally broken and crime infested places from which they came. Then come back and show us how it is done. These places need your help badly, you can’t leave fast enough. I’m sure that Nancy Pelosi would be very happy to quickly work out free travel arrangements!

The most likely Congresswomen he was talking about are Reps. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez of New York, Ilhan Omar of Minnesota, Ayanna Pressley of Massachusetts and Rashida Tlaib of Michigan.  All  of them are American citizens.  Three of them were born in America.  Two of them were born to American parents.  One of them has American ancestors that have been in this country longer than Trump has.

You can almost hear him suggesting that if blacks don't like this country, they should go back to Africa.  ::)

Is there any wonder anymore why white supremacists support him?

Is there anyone who doesn't realize that, if you support Trump, you are supporting someone who believes not every citizen is an American?

I'm curious if anyone on this board still supports this President.  Is it because you agree that some Congresswomen should "go back" to where "they came?"  Is it because you will forgive a bit of racism if you can get other policies enacted?  Is it because you love the current economy so much that disenfranchising citizens is a small price to pay?

Trump is a lying, bullying, racist POS.  I hope that everyone on this board finally recognizes this and will act appropriately from now on.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: D.W. on July 15, 2019, 04:10:55 PM
I considered a post earlier about what line he could cross to lose support,  (or finding a thread I believe we already had on that topic and digging it up), but decided not to bother.  It's all rather pointless by now.

Those who want to excuse his behavior will do so still.  Those who can put up with it, may grind another layer off their teeth but that's about it.  Everyone knew Trump's character before they voted.  Probably more so than most to hold the office.  Maybe some believed that Trump the persona wouldn't be the same as Trump the president? 

Whatever, the man can't become more of a disappointment to me.  Maybe the "cure for cancer" campaign comment by Biden was just code for getting Trump out of office.  Until then though Trump will keep stirring the pot and shocking us with the realization that the prestige and dignity of the office is no match for one such as he.

SSDD

partial retraction:  I see already to some extent I'm wrong.  Several GOP lawmakers are condemning his comments.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: TheDrake on July 15, 2019, 04:18:20 PM
This story is all TDS and the liberal media's fault.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: DonaldD on July 15, 2019, 04:29:41 PM
The question is... which policies/executive orders are being enacted this/next week that will benefit from the distraction provided by the sturm und drang resulting from his tweets?
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: Seriati on July 15, 2019, 04:42:23 PM
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/01/24/in-116th-congress-at-least-13-of-lawmakers-are-immigrants-or-the-children-of-immigrants/ (https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/01/24/in-116th-congress-at-least-13-of-lawmakers-are-immigrants-or-the-children-of-immigrants/)

Tough to really say, my guess is he means Omar and was being sloppy, but certainly possible he doesn't view others as American.  This is one of those self owns, where he got in his own way.  No real reason to use the "go back where you came from format."

But the problem here, is that he's largely correct, the progressive congresswomen do largely seem to hate the country they represent (which is a common failing on the left that sees every fault America has every made, but doesn't see the good).  If he kept it to patriotism, and to misrepresentations of facts, he'd have a point, as it is we have a distraction and more fuel for the fire.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: DJQuag on July 15, 2019, 04:44:43 PM
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/01/24/in-116th-congress-at-least-13-of-lawmakers-are-immigrants-or-the-children-of-immigrants/ (https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/01/24/in-116th-congress-at-least-13-of-lawmakers-are-immigrants-or-the-children-of-immigrants/)

Tough to really say, my guess is he means Omar and was being sloppy, but certainly possible he doesn't view others as American.  This is one of those self owns, where he got in his own way.  No real reason to use the "go back where you came from format."

But the problem here, is that he's largely correct, the progressive congresswomen do largely seem to hate the country they represent (which is a common failing on the left that sees every fault America has every made, but doesn't see the good).  If he kept it to patriotism, and to misrepresentations of facts, he'd have a point, as it is we have a distraction and more fuel for the fire.

And if he was a squirrel, he'd probably go on a rant over acorns being so expensive. The man is what he is.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: DonaldD on July 15, 2019, 05:11:37 PM
Quote
But the problem here, is that he's largely correct, the progressive congresswomen do largely seem to hate the country they represent
And this here illustrates one of, if not the main, failures of the modern USA - the inability to accept that others who do not share one's particular beliefs must hate the country.

These are woman who have repeatedly voiced their love of country and who have decided to serve their homeland.  They will just never be accepted by the "USA - love it or leave it" simple-minded, binary folks who don't happen to agree with them on policy.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: Seriati on July 15, 2019, 05:39:06 PM
Actions and words are different things.  What exactly do you think they are doing that shows a love of country?  How are they supporting our country?  They seem to me to be more divisive than the President.  Have no respect for our laws.  Routinely to lie about the country and what it stands for.  I honestly, can't think of what makes you think that they do love the country.

Maybe I'm just missing it, but the idea that "repeating your love of country" when your actions are the opposite doesn't cut it for me.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: DJQuag on July 15, 2019, 05:56:11 PM
By law or by tradition? Because this country prides itself on being a moral leader for the world. What they're saying is the conditions that these caught immigrants are living in are abhorrent and offend what we stand for at a basic level.

Does anyone here think it's cool that while they may get food and 2x3 foot square slab of concrete to sleep on that they don't get soap and toothpaste? Oh, only the single men, thata fine, lol. ISIS gave those things to their prisoners. Frigging ISIS.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: Seriati on July 15, 2019, 06:04:08 PM
Actually, I think it's just a lie that they don't get soap and toothpaste, and 100% the fault of Congress to the extent there is any overcrowding or lack of amenities.  Pretty sure that AOC lied about it, and 100% sure that her claiming they were concentration camps was ridiculous polemic that hurt the US (why would I think she hates the country again?).

100% sure that activists from the left have exacerbated the problem at the border and that sanctuary cities and free services have gotten people killed and created the "inhumane" conditions that are being decried.  I have zero patience for pretending the left are the good guys here.  They are liars, and they are directly supporting the undermining of our laws.  We have a very generous immigration system when compared with just about anyone's and yet that's not enough for the left, they have to encourage breaking it.

They've coached perjury from tens of thousands, maybe more, illegal immigrants by teaching them to lie about asylum, which has endangered the ability of people who actually need asylum to make reasonable claims.  I am at the point, where I want everyone here illegally expelled.  There should be no citizenship, or rights of any kind provided to anyone that won't agree to follow our laws, and I'd even solidify the position that the child of an illegal alien is not a citizen.

None of which is due to xenophobia, racism or hatred of anyone, but all of which relates to a respect for the rule of law, and a belief that we have a right to control our own borders.   I have no problem with expanding legal immigration.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: DonaldD on July 16, 2019, 05:30:48 AM
Quote
They seem to me to be more divisive than the President.  Have no respect for our laws.  Routinely to lie about the country and what it stands for.  I honestly, can't think of what makes you think that they do love the country.
This just illustrates my point.  You could as easily have used these exact same words, just turned around, to describe the president. Your partisan blinders simply don't allow you to see it.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: cherrypoptart on July 16, 2019, 07:13:00 AM
Isn't everyone who opposes open borders already a racist anyway?
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: DJQuag on July 16, 2019, 08:01:15 AM
Isn't everyone who opposes open borders already a racist anyway?

By all means.  Justify your side's radicalism by quoting ours.

Telling someone to go back to their own country means something in America. Grow a pair and acknowledge that.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: cherrypoptart on July 16, 2019, 08:15:29 AM
I'm asking if everyone who opposes open borders is racist. Show of hands would be fine.

I'll raise mine first. Yes, everyone who opposes open borders is racist. That is my understanding anyway.

As for his specific comment, what if he had told Beto to go back to Ireland if he wants to live in a socialist country? Would that have been racist? Or if he told Pelosi to go back to Italy if she wants to be overwhelmed by immigrants? Would that have been racist? Or is Trump's comment only racist because it was directed at non-whites? Or in other words is the same type of comment racist when directed at some people but not racist when directed at others?
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: Crunch on July 16, 2019, 08:16:55 AM
Isn't everyone who opposes open borders already a racist anyway?

By all means.  Justify your side's radicalism by quoting ours.

Telling someone to go back to their own country means something in America. Grow a pair and acknowledge that.

What does asking them to come back with the solutions mean?
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: Crunch on July 16, 2019, 08:20:59 AM
Isn't everyone who opposes open borders already a racist anyway?

A racist is anyone that disagrees with the left. That’s all. It doesn’t mean anything else in modern political discourse.

Case in point, the same people all in a tizzy about Trump’s comments are also proponents of racial segregation. Calling others a racist while supporting racial segregation is such a great demonstration of the left and how they work and is the key in understanding what they mean when they say ”racist”.

Even Pelosi was a racist this week because she disagreed with the squad.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: cherrypoptart on July 16, 2019, 08:36:10 AM
Well this was a timely article to find, just what I was looking for, to the point Mr. Crunch just made, examples of Democrats calling each other racist which is par for the course. Everyone is racist and it only takes the slightest difference of opinion to prove it. When everyone is racist is anyone really racist?

https://www.yahoo.com/news/dems-disarray-103038792.html

"...To recap, just in the last few days, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez suggested that Nancy Pelosi was being a racist and, when called on it, said she wasn’t saying that. AOC’s brain, Saikat Chakrabarti, compared the gay Kansas congresswoman Sharice Davids, also a Democrat, to segregationist Southern Democrats of yore because her votes supposedly “are showing her to enable a racist system.” The official Twitter account of the House Democrats threw the racism charge right back in Chakrabarti’s face, saying he was “explicitly singling out a Native American woman of color.”

Accusations of racism are a kind of brainless addiction on the Left, like slot machines. Whenever they feel unsatisfied with anything, they break their minds into quarters, put them in the slots, yank the arm down, and repeat. Ayanna Pressley of Massachusetts, heretofore the most unassuming member of the “squad” of young House firebrands that also includes AOC, Ilhan Omar of Minnesota, and Rashida Tlaib of Michigan, made an undergraduate-level authenticity argument against Democratic-party minorities, such as members of the Congressional Black Caucus, who fail to vote with the extreme Left:

    We don’t need any more brown faces that don’t want to be a brown voice. We don’t need any more black faces that don’t want to be a black voice. We don’t need Muslims that don’t want to be a Muslim voice. We don’t need queers that don’t want to be a queer voice. We don’t need any more Muslim faces that don’t want to be a Muslim voice.

It was like one Oberlin minority accusing another of being a “coconut” or an “Oreo.”
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: cherrypoptart on July 16, 2019, 10:18:13 AM
https://www.yahoo.com/news/asian-caucus-hits-back-after-trumps-racist-go-back-to-other-countries-tweet-230118831.html

"Asian Caucus Hits Back After Trump's Racist 'Go Back' To Other Countries Tweet"

So Asians can have a caucus. Blacks can have a caucus. Hispanics can have a caucus. And that's fine.

But whites? Whites can NOT have a caucus. And that's not racist how exactly?

It's funny having all these racists in all their racist little caucuses calling Trump a racist.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: NobleHunter on July 16, 2019, 10:30:51 AM
Whites do have a caucus, it's called the Republican Party.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: cherrypoptart on July 16, 2019, 10:44:08 AM
Are there whites in the Asian caucus or the black caucus? Because there are Asians and blacks in the so called white caucus aka Republican Party. Are whites even allowed to join the Asian caucus or black caucus? What if they are fellow Democrats who fully support their goals but just happen to be white?
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: cherrypoptart on July 16, 2019, 10:54:41 AM
And another thing while we're talking about racism, what's with the racist census?

No, not the question about whether or not you are a citizen. How would that be racist when recent immigrants from Europe may not be citizens either?

No, I'm talking about how the census has a bunch of boxes to check specifying what kind of Asian you are for example Japanese, Chinese, Korean, etc. It has a bunch of boxes to check specifying what kind of African you are for example Kenyan, Nigerian, etc. It has a bunch of boxes to check specifying what kind of Hispanic you are for example Mexican, Puerto Rican, etc. That's fine. That's cool. No problem with any of that. Now that's to the best of my remembrance so if it's not exactly like that it's along those lines.

Now when it comes to white it's great because it also has a bunch of boxes to check specifying what kind of white you are for example Irish, French, German, etc. Oh wait a minute. That's right, it doesn't! Now how exactly is that not completely racist? And why aren't people who hate racism not more upset about it?

I had to write my European ancestry in pencil on the last census though I doubt it did any good because they probably have no way to record the information and yes I know it because of a DNA test. How come my wife gets a sweet little box to check Japanese but I can't put down Irish/German/French/British/Finnish/Jewish/Russian? It's not fair. It's not right. It's downright blatantly racist.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: rightleft22 on July 16, 2019, 10:58:12 AM
Quote
This story is all TDS
  TDS goes both ways. Those that can't acknowledge anything good in Trump and those that can't acknowledge anything wrong


Good to see all the talking points come out... great strategy for Trump.

Personally I think Trump should go back where he came from. If you listen to him everything is negative as only in some mythic past was America great. He wines more then any president ever but for some reason his negativity is love of country where as those that don't agree with him must hate it.
Its hypocrisy at the grossest level. But that what he does. He projects exactly what hes doing on to some other and calls it out as being horrible.

Only certain men in history get away without ever being held accountable. It never ends well, But we build the world we deserve.

Everyone keep dancing.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: NobleHunter on July 16, 2019, 10:59:08 AM
Are there whites in the Asian caucus or the black caucus? Because there are Asians and blacks in the so called white caucus aka Republican Party. Are whites even allowed to join the Asian caucus or black caucus? What if they are fellow Democrats who fully support their goals but just happen to be white?

I believe its up to each caucus to define the terms of their association.

Though I'm curious to know what sort of common interests you think white members of Congress have that would make a White caucus useful.

I don't know about the Census but you might not get the real reason unless you have access to the government's hard drives.

Your DNA test was likely full of *censored*.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: cherrypoptart on July 16, 2019, 11:00:20 AM
Okay, never mind, looks like they are ahead of me.

Maybe me penciling it in last time got something sent up the chain of command.

https://www.npr.org/2018/02/01/582338628/-what-kind-of-white-2020-census-to-ask-white-people-about-origins

"The race question is going to get complicated for many people who identify as white on the U.S. census.

Since 1960, when U.S. residents were first allowed to self-report their race on the census, just answering "White" has been enough to complete the race question. But the federal government is now preparing to essentially ask non-Hispanic white people where they and their ancestors are from as part of the Census Bureau's inquiry into their racial identity.Last month, the Census Bureau announced it's adding a write-in area for the "White" category on the 2020 census questionnaire so that participants can provide their "origins."

"Print, for example, German, Irish, English, Italian, Lebanese, Egyptian, etc.," read the instructions on the form the bureau is using in a practice run of the 2020 census in Rhode Island's Providence County beginning in March.

Those suggested answers are among the largest U.S. population groups descending from Europe, the Middle East and North Africa — regions with "original peoples" classified by the U.S. government as "White," according to the federal standards for race and ethnicity data."
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: cherrypoptart on July 16, 2019, 11:11:10 AM
Well obviously I'm not lamenting the fact that there isn't a white caucus. I don't think there should be. It would be racist if there was one. Only racist people would join it. But that goes for all of them just as well, just the same. It's by definition. In fact, right about a now a definition of racism would be very helpful. I'd suggest one but it might be too simplistic so I'm open to others. Treating people differently because of their race is racism.

Granted that ancestral DNA isn't an exact science but mine pretty well matched my genealogical research very well.

Anyone else read the Jack Reacher novels? I like the parts where he gets pedantic, semantic, and sarcastic.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: NobleHunter on July 16, 2019, 11:19:16 AM
Can you think of any shared interests of Black or Asian people that might contribute to the existence of the Black and Asian caucuses?
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: cherrypoptart on July 16, 2019, 11:30:32 AM
Whatever interests they share couldn't people of other races share the same interests? "Shared interests" actually sounds like code for racism. Fact is they are groups based on race. By definition they are racist groups. Everyone always has their reasons. Justifications. Rationales. They may even have some good ones. But bottom line, racism is racism. Of course, we all know that the left argues that some racism is good; some racism is better than others. Affirmative action, for example. Obviously it's racist. If you're Asian you need a higher score then if you are white. Blatantly racist. But it's the good racism. But there aren't good people on both sides. There are good racists on only one side.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: TheDrake on July 16, 2019, 11:31:23 AM
A white caucus might be useful and necessary in.... Zimbabwe. When you're in the majority and have the power, you don't need to amplify your voice and represent your concerns. When you are in the minority and are not treated equally, you need a caucus.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: TheDrake on July 16, 2019, 11:38:07 AM
Actually, I think it's just a lie that they don't get soap and toothpaste, and 100% the fault of Congress to the extent there is any overcrowding or lack of amenities.  Pretty sure that AOC lied about it, and 100% sure that her claiming they were concentration camps was ridiculous polemic that hurt the US (why would I think she hates the country again?).

Actually, you can think that but it is happening. Otherwise the government's lawyer wouldn't be arguing that they don't have to provide it.

Quote
The government went to federal court this week to argue that it shouldn’t be required to give detained migrant children toothbrushes, soap, towels, showers or even half a night’s sleep inside Border Patrol detention facilities.

The position bewildered a panel of three judges in the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 9th Circuit on Tuesday, who questioned whether government lawyers sincerely believed they could describe the temporary detention facilities as “safe and sanitary” if children weren’t provided adequate toiletries and sleeping conditions. One circuit judge said it struck him as “inconceivable."

That was actually a lawsuit against the Obama administration, so this isn't a partisan thing.

100% the fault of Congress? That's a lot of percent. What if Trump had continued Obama era policies? Would we be having a humanitarian crisis?
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: NobleHunter on July 16, 2019, 11:42:54 AM
Whatever interests they share couldn't people of other races share the same interests? "Shared interests" actually sounds like code for racism. Fact is they are groups based on race. By definition they are racist groups. Everyone always has their reasons. Justifications. Rationales. They may even have some good ones. But bottom line, racism is racism. Of course, we all know that the left argues that some racism is good; some racism is better than others. Affirmative action, for example. Obviously it's racist. If you're Asian you need a higher score then if you are white. Blatantly racist. But it's the good racism. But there aren't good people on both sides. There are good racists on only one side.

Are you suggesting that Jim Crow is morally equivalent to affirmative action?
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: scifibum on July 16, 2019, 11:53:31 AM
Quote
But the problem here, is that he's largely correct, the progressive congresswomen do largely seem to hate the country they represent (which is a common failing on the left that sees every fault America has every made, but doesn't see the good).

This is such a load of crap, Seriati.

Criticism of policy or politicians doesn't equate to hate of country. That's a BIG LIE and you're a big fool if you believe it and repeat it.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: DonaldD on July 16, 2019, 11:56:18 AM
Quote
Fact is they are groups based on race. By definition they are racist groups.
No, this is not by definition.  You should look it up.  Maybe what you meant is "racial".  This is pretty basic, language-101-level comprehension.  Unless you are trying to redefine the word for political reasons... naw...
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: TheDrake on July 16, 2019, 12:08:56 PM
The beauty of our country is that you are allowed if not encouraged to be dissatisfied with our country, its laws, and its leaders. It doesn't mean you "hate" the country. It means you recognize that it can be different and better than it is today.

I would argue that most conservatives, by that definition, hate our country. They hate most of its institutions, they hate most judges, they hate its taxes, they hate its trade deals, they hate its protection of our environment...
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: TheDeamon on July 16, 2019, 01:07:41 PM
These are woman who have repeatedly voiced their love of country and who have decided to serve their homeland.  They will just never be accepted by the "USA - love it or leave it" simple-minded, binary folks who don't happen to agree with them on policy.

I'm under the impression Omar in particular was very proud of her Palestinian roots, and continues to view it as her "homeland" even if it is not where she lives.

But she knows its a crap-hole, and as a woman, would have little influence there. So she's taken up residence here instead. There is no interest like self-interest. Of course, there's the dog-and-pony show she sells instead because that reality wouldn't sell very well, but whatever.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: TheDeamon on July 16, 2019, 01:19:51 PM
Whites do have a caucus, it's called the Republican Party.

What's with the Black Guy and several Hispanics then? They're not very white.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: TheDrake on July 16, 2019, 01:33:49 PM
I know people who view Ireland or Italy as their homeland even though it was their great-great-grandparents who last lived there. It doesn't mean they aren't good American citizens.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: DonaldD on July 16, 2019, 02:05:28 PM
Quote
So she's taken up residence here instead. There is no interest like self-interest.
That's pretty disingenuous of you.  Was it purposeful, or subconscious?  She moved here with her family as a child - so "tak[ing] up residence" wasn't her decision.  She did become a citizen when she was still a minor, however, so one might say she has taken more active steps to become a member of the polity than people who were simply born here and just inherited their citizenship without any effort on their part.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: cherrypoptart on July 16, 2019, 03:02:40 PM
Definition of racist 1. a person who shows or feels discrimination or prejudice against people of other races, or who believes that a particular race is superior to another.

Definition of discrimination 1. the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people or things, especially on the grounds of race, age, or sex.

So having a caucus based on race and not letting other races join your little caucus is prejudicial treatment of different categories of people on the grounds of race. It's the definition of racism. There are other definitions about feeling superior and the situation may not fit that definition but it fits this one perfectly.

Getting into the details gets interesting too. So there is the Asian caucus and the Black caucus and they both fight for equality. The Black caucus says Blacks make up 13% of the population but get much less representation than that in Ivy League schools so that is unequal. The Asians say even though the Asian student scored much higher than the black student the black student got the open slot so that is unequal. But they are both fighting for equality. And of course since none of them are white none of them are racist even though they are fighting for their own race at the expense of another and there is nothing at all racist about that.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: DonaldD on July 16, 2019, 03:46:27 PM
Now you pretend not to understand "prejudicial" (hint - there is no judgment required in having a club open to only a select type of people.) Either that, or you do not understand formal logic.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: TheDeamon on July 16, 2019, 04:01:33 PM
Now you pretend not to understand "prejudicial" (hint - there is no judgment required in having a club open to only a select type of people.) Either that, or you do not understand formal logic.

There was a judgement made all the same, it was even a pre-made decision purely on the grounds of race. They need not consider the rest of your application.

"Are you Asian? No? Too bad, you can't join."
"Are you Black? No? Too bad, you can't join."
"Are you White? No? Too bad, you can't join."

Under our legal system, it's firmly established that membership applications to various groups cannot decline membership applications in the third scenario. But the other two are okay? Lady justice is supposed to blind, not stupid.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: DonaldD on July 16, 2019, 04:17:32 PM
And now we have someone who doesn't understand the definition of the word "judgment"... either that, or you are conflating the legal vs non-legal language, which I agree is stupid.  (again, here's a hint - you do not need to form an opinion in order to identify somebody as black or Asian.)

There is no law against being a racist.  Racist acts, however, may or may not be illegal.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: cherrypoptart on July 16, 2019, 04:18:00 PM
That's why I mentioned enjoying semantics and being pedantic. I was going to capitalize the OR between "discrimination or prejudice" in the definition of racism but I did make the point by further defining discrimination but leaving prejudice out of it. Prejudice is not necessary for racism. Only discrimination. And discrimination is clear enough when you allow one race but not others. Good intentions and pure motives are also irrelevant at least to that common sense definition of racist. I'm glad at least I'm not the only one who sees the irony in members of the Asian and Black Congressional Caucuses calling someone out for supposed racism. And Trump's statement is only racist if he refuses to apply it to all races. If a white person of Canadian ancestry were elected to the American Congress and started trash talking America I have no doubt that Trump would be perfectly willing to tell them that if they hated America so much they are always free to go back to Canada. If Trump wouldn't be willing to apply the same standard to white politicians who trash talk America all the time then I would agree that's racist. But we've heard plenty of Trump supporters gung ho for white Hollywood elites and others who also talk about going to Canada being full of nothing but encouragement so I'm not seeing the racism. Treat all people equally regardless of race and you're not a racist. Tell anyone who hates America which they demonstrate by wanting to change the fundamental principles on which it is based and which made it prosperous, made it the greatest nation God ever gave Man, that they are free to leave, and that's not racist at all.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: DonaldD on July 16, 2019, 04:21:42 PM
Except then you need to learn the meaning of the word discrimination, which you also glossed over cherrypoptart.

Here is where your language skills fail you most recently:
Quote
And discrimination is clear enough when you allow one race but not others.
No - it is not clear.  And by "clear enough" I expect you mean "proven" or "demonstrated". Can you figure out why not?
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: NobleHunter on July 16, 2019, 04:26:07 PM
That's why I mentioned enjoying semantics and being pedantic. I was going to capitalize the OR between "discrimination or prejudice" in the definition of racism but I did make the point by further defining discrimination but leaving prejudice out of it. Prejudice is not necessary for racism. Only discrimination. And discrimination is clear enough when you allow one race but not others. Good intentions and pure motives are also irrelevant at least to that common sense definition of racist. I'm glad at least I'm not the only one who sees the irony in members of the Asian and Black Congressional Caucuses calling someone out for supposed racism. And Trump's statement is only racist if he refuses to apply it to all races. If a white person of Canadian ancestry were elected to the American Congress and started trash talking America I have no doubt that Trump would be perfectly willing to tell them that if they hated America so much they are always free to go back to Canada. If Trump wouldn't be willing to apply the same standard to white politicians who trash talk America all the time then I would agree that's racist. But we've heard plenty of Trump supporters gung ho for white Hollywood elites and others who also talk about going to Canada being full of nothing but encouragement so I'm not seeing the racism. Treat all people equally regardless of race and you're not a racist. Tell anyone who hates America which they demonstrate by wanting to change the fundamental principles on which it is based and which made it prosperous, made it the greatest nation God ever gave Man, that they are free to leave, and that's not racist at all.

Except the only time Trump's told someone to go back where they came from is when criticizing non-White people. There are white immigrants serving in Congress, yet Trump hasn't used that particular meme against them.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: DonaldD on July 16, 2019, 04:26:47 PM
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Tell anyone who hates America which they demonstrate by wanting to change the fundamental principles on which it is based
Once again, a perfect illustration of a huge failure in parts of the US psyche today.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: Crunch on July 16, 2019, 05:02:51 PM
And here’s the point of it all:

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Top Democrats are circulating a poll showing that one of the House's most progressive members — Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez — has become a definitional face for the party with a crucial group of swing voters.
...

"If all voters hear about is AOC, it could put the [House] majority at risk," said a top Democrat who is involved in 2020 congressional races. "(S)he's getting all the news and defining everyone else's races."

The poll -- taken in May, before Speaker Pelosi's latest run-in with AOC and the three other liberal House freshmen known as "The Squad" -- included 1,003 likely general-election voters who are white and have two years or less of college education.

These are the "white, non-college voters" who embraced Donald Trump in 2016 but are needed by Democrats in swing House districts.

The group that took the poll shared the results with Axios on the condition that it not be named, because the group has to work with all parts of the party.

The findings:

Ocasio-Cortez was recognized by 74% of voters in the poll; 22% had a favorable view.


Rep. Ilhan Omar of Minnesota -- another member of The Squad -- was recognized by 53% of the voters; 9% (not a typo) had a favorable view.

Socialism was viewed favorably by 18% of the voters and unfavorably by 69%.

Capitalism was 56% favorable; 32% unfavorable.

"Socialism is toxic to these voters," said the top Democrat.

Trump has made these people the face of the Democrat party. Almost everyone knows them and almost everyone dislikes them and what they stand for as we run up to elections. The knee jerk defense of the squad cements that perception. This was a brilliant move, genius level stuff from Trump. This keeps up and 2020 will be a landslide victory for him.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: Seriati on July 16, 2019, 07:14:11 PM
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They seem to me to be more divisive than the President.  Have no respect for our laws.  Routinely to lie about the country and what it stands for.  I honestly, can't think of what makes you think that they do love the country.
This just illustrates my point.  You could as easily have used these exact same words, just turned around, to describe the president. Your partisan blinders simply don't allow you to see it.

You should know me better, I  saw it when I wrote it.  Of course I think Trump has routinely complied with the law, followed court decisions even when they violated the separation of powers, and generally is in trouble for following and enforcing the law.  I don't see ANYTHING on the right that is equivalent to sanctuary cities, or coaching perjury in asylum cases.  Name it for me.

Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: Seriati on July 16, 2019, 07:25:17 PM
Actually, I think it's just a lie that they don't get soap and toothpaste, and 100% the fault of Congress to the extent there is any overcrowding or lack of amenities.  Pretty sure that AOC lied about it, and 100% sure that her claiming they were concentration camps was ridiculous polemic that hurt the US (why would I think she hates the country again?).

Actually, you can think that but it is happening. Otherwise the government's lawyer wouldn't be arguing that they don't have to provide it.

So because Obama's lawyers made a legal claim (not a statement of fact), I should accept AOC's lie?  No.  That's not how hypotheticals work at appeals courts.

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100% the fault of Congress? That's a lot of percent. What if Trump had continued Obama era policies? Would we be having a humanitarian crisis?

Yes, we'd still have a humanitarian crisis because Trump's economy is a magnet and Obama's was insect repellent.

But you are dodging the point.  100% of the lack of adequate facilities is at the feet of the only branch of government that can allocate money to fund adequate facilities.  Congress.  When Congress passes ANY law that fixes the situation call me, been waiting for decades.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: TheDeamon on July 16, 2019, 11:22:25 PM
But you are dodging the point.  100% of the lack of adequate facilities is at the feet of the only branch of government that can allocate money to fund adequate facilities.  Congress.  When Congress passes ANY law that fixes the situation call me, been waiting for decades.

And it's even more ironic given more/better detention facilities was a line item in Trump's funding request that the Democrats cut back in February. Yet the bad conditions in detention facilities(which we now know have existed since Obama was President are somehow Trump's fault?
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: TheDeamon on July 16, 2019, 11:34:12 PM
For anyone who gave Trump the benefit of the doubt about being racist, let them go.  As you've probably heard, his tweets on Sunday removed all doubt: (https://www.electoral-vote.com/evp2019/Pres/Maps/Jul15.html#item-1)

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So interesting to see 'Progressive' Democrat Congresswomen, who originally came from countries whose governments are a complete and total catastrophe, the worst, most corrupt and inept anywhere in the world (if they even have a functioning government at all), now loudly and viciously telling the people of the United States, the greatest and most powerful Nation on earth, how our government is to be run. Why don’t they go back and help fix the totally broken and crime infested places from which they came. Then come back and show us how it is done. These places need your help badly, you can’t leave fast enough. I’m sure that Nancy Pelosi would be very happy to quickly work out free travel arrangements!

The most likely Congresswomen he was talking about are Reps. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez of New York, Ilhan Omar of Minnesota, Ayanna Pressley of Massachusetts and Rashida Tlaib of Michigan.  All  of them are American citizens.  Three of them were born in America.  Two of them were born to American parents.  One of them has American ancestors that have been in this country longer than Trump has.

You can almost hear him suggesting that if blacks don't like this country, they should go back to Africa.  ::)

Is there any wonder anymore why white supremacists support him?

It appears he has doubled down on the statement since and at least to me, it sounded very "race neutral" to my ears. but "you guys" are off chasing bogeymen. Everything is racist for you and most Democrat elites, it's plain as day for all("Trump voters") to see.

The phrasing is awkward as hell, in large part due to "the lensing" that can be done with it, as you and others have already done on this forum.

For those among the "not woke" audience that don't view everything as potentially racist and a capable of at least a modicum of objectivity, Trump's phrasing is absolutely brilliant. He triggered the living daylights out of Democratic/Liberal/Left-wing Operatives. He's making them look like idiots, which they evidently are because they're running a freaking marathon with it.

They're just further validating to that infamous "Trump voter" why they voted for the right person in 2016. The real kicker in this is the Dems are not seeing it for what it is either.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: Crunch on July 17, 2019, 07:35:05 AM
Except then you need to learn the meaning of the word discrimination, which you also glossed over cherrypoptart.

Here is where your language skills fail you most recently:
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And discrimination is clear enough when you allow one race but not others.
No - it is not clear.  And by "clear enough" I expect you mean "proven" or "demonstrated". Can you figure out why not?

Let’s ask Ralph “Coonman” Northam to figure that out.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: cherrypoptart on July 17, 2019, 08:55:12 AM
I can't help but notice how fast the whole Russian collusion delusion Democrat media hoax disappeared from the headlines. Of course that has nothing to do with this. And that's the whole point. This is just more fake news. Fake news on top of fake news. Sleight of hand to keep up the distractions from all of the progress Trump and America are making together.

The point is these ultraleft radicals think they are the ones to fix America. And by fix they mean totally break and rebuild in a completely different way, a way that is proven to be inferior and lead to catastrophically bad results like Venezuela and Obamacare and Detroit. And worse, with virtually unlimited immigration as their main big bright idea. America doesn't need that kind of "fixing". We could use some fine tuning to be sure and constant improvement is always welcome but we're not broken. And that's the point Trump is making. If they want to fix a country that way, with a complete overhaul, a top to bottom total rebuild, then they should go to some really broken countries and fix them instead. America doesn't need that kind of work. That actually softened his statement when he put that in there. He didn't say go back to where you came from. Or at least he didn't just say that. He said, and I'll paraphrase, that America isn't that bad, certainly not as bad as they are making it out to be, and if they want to fix a broken country they should look at the ones they (their ancestors) came from and fix those because we don't need that kind of work and they really do, badly.

I mentioned that Trump would tell a European or Canadian much the same thing except when it comes to that part of it referring to their broken countries I don't think anybody could really say any of those whiter countries are as bad off as some of the ones these people (meaning their parents or ancestors) fled so the exact same statement wouldn't really make as much sense. Is it racist that Beto's ancestral Ireland isn't nearly as bad off as Somalia? So it doesn't make much sense for Trump to tell Beto to go fix Ireland or to tell Pelosi to go fix Italy. Facts and reality aren't racist. They should be considered neutral. But to some there is in fact nothing more racist than facts and reality.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: Seriati on July 17, 2019, 09:26:06 AM
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But the problem here, is that he's largely correct, the progressive congresswomen do largely seem to hate the country they represent (which is a common failing on the left that sees every fault America has every made, but doesn't see the good).

This is such a load of crap, Seriati.

Criticism of policy or politicians doesn't equate to hate of country. That's a BIG LIE and you're a big fool if you believe it and repeat it.

I agree criticism of policy doesn't equate to hate of our country, lying about our country in a way that damages it (e.g., lying about concentration camps)?  Sure does.  Encouraging and supporting lawlessness and violence (sanctuary cities; perjury on asylum; standing down enforcement against antifa)?  Sure does.  Seeking to replace capitalism (which has increased wealth every where it's been tried) with socialism (which has generally destroyed wealth and led to suffering where-ever its been tried)?  Sure does.

The ONLY thing they seem to "love" about our country is that it's legal for them to hate it because we have strong rights around freedom of speech, but those same rights when applied in the other direction have got to go.  So do they really even love that?  Nope.

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All of this is to say that words matter, and can have consequences for safety.

For those who believe in “free speech”: whose free speech do you believe in?

Bc some folks using free speech to defend racism are also supporting folks passing laws to allow running over protesters.  from the tweets of AOC
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: D.W. on July 17, 2019, 09:28:36 AM
Fake news?  This is a direct quote that he and his staff have defended...  If you are going to use that term in relation to opposition to Trump at least try and use it in a sensible manner.

Watching people defend Trump's statements as 'not what some seem to be reading/hearing' is like watching an episode of Ancient Aliens.

"Is it possible what he said wasn't blatant racism?  Absolutely!"  What he really meant was X, Y & Z. 

I get it.  You aren't going to kick this guy to the curb and replace him with someone else after 1 term and have a shot at winning the WH in 2020.  It's him or nothin and you're trapped.  The sooner you start acting like resigned prisoners without a choice instead of tying yourself in knots to deny reality the sooner you can save your party.

It may even work as the Democratic party seems to have its head up its ass or is overreacting to Trump's button pushing far too often for its own good.  Maybe you can fake it till you make it for another SC pick, then it's all worth holding your nose for, I guess.

As if we aren't witnessing the break down of America right this moment into something completely different.  I hope someone likes what is being built because it's going to take awhile to un*censored* it all.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: Seriati on July 17, 2019, 09:57:00 AM
I think the fake news concept here is tied into how the news cycle acts.  I don't believe Trump is a racist, I don't think there is any objective basis to have such a belief.  Almost everything cited to is a lie or assertion that having a legitimate policy belief (such as on the border) is "proof" of racism.  That's my base.

It gets complicated with Trump because of his mouth.  He constantly says things that are completely offensive, and that can be construed or misconstrued as being racially insensitive.  In this case, I think he deliberately played on a meme/dog whistle to provoke a reaction that middle America may believe is unwarranted.  It's gospel truth on the left that "go back where you came from" is inherently racist.  For the rest of the world, there's nothing about it that is racist on its face, and for many it actually seems like a completely non-racist statement.  In fact, when you are listening to individuals who clearly think systems that fail in foreign countries are better, or clearly champion positions that aren't mainstream American it even makes sense - if you hate America and like x country better, you should just put your money where you mouth is and go there.

So Trump, with his words, gives his haters the tools to make the claims they want to believe are true, or more likely in my view, that they believe are damaging to assert - in other words - they see this as "proof" they can sell that Trump is racist.  Now why is it fake news?  Because the media is aware of the nuance, they're aware that Trump isn't really a racist, but they are completely desperate to tear him down and they think this is a powerful tool, so they ignore that and they run with Trump is a racist, and again it exposes them as hypocrites, Bill Clinton and Harry Reed have a conversation about Barack Obama getting them coffee, which is just as arguably racist - and would be seen as such if it were Trump and McConnell having the conversation - and it's just an unfortunate comment to be explained away, not a story about how they are racists. 

Biden actually says he found common ground to work with racists and opposed busing and he's not a racist, he just has some positions that he's refined.  Compare that to how far out of context they took Trump's quote about good people on both sides (of the statue debate) to mean that he thought there were good racists (which he specifically denied in they same speech). 

So what is the REAL news here?  Is it that Trump's a racist (that seems a fake story to me).  Or that Trump said something that seems racially insensitive, but that arguably isn't (much more likely to be true).  Or that Trump rightfully called out certain Congresswomen, who as a matter of policy seem to trade on hating America and a good chunk of Americans, whom they don't believe have legitimate views?  Which story did you hear?

It seems to me that the media has done a really good job of establishing that they are willing to lie about Trump being a racist, and that destroys their credibility to make this charge stick, especially when on its face it looks like they are overreacting.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: D.W. on July 17, 2019, 10:06:02 AM
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It gets complicated with Trump because of his mouth.  He constantly says things that are completely offensive.  In this case, I think he deliberately played on a meme/dog whistle to provoke a reaction that middle America may believe is unwarranted.
If someone deliberately ACTS racist, or tries to entice racists to support him, does it really matter if it's a calculated ruse?  Not that calculation jives at all with the, unpolished public speaker excuse he often skates by on.

I don't see how it's "complicated" at all.

I also don't see how ANY level of opposition to the policies others are proposing excuse what he said and the way he's behaving. 

"they're aware that Trump isn't really a racist,"   Doubt's pretty much gone on this one.  So keep pushing your, criticism = hate for country.  That one at least may gain some traction.  It's BS, but it seems likely to sway some people.  The "he's not a racist" line is a joke.  Either he is, or he just 'plays one on TV'.  In which case, who gives a poop about the difference?  It's a danger to our country either way.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: Seriati on July 17, 2019, 10:07:52 AM
By the way, this is the kind of story that helps to undermine the media's credibility on declaring someone a racist.

https://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/chris-pratt-gadsden-flag-white-supremacist-reaction (https://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/chris-pratt-gadsden-flag-white-supremacist-reaction)
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: Seriati on July 17, 2019, 10:17:00 AM
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It gets complicated with Trump because of his mouth.  He constantly says things that are completely offensive.  In this case, I think he deliberately played on a meme/dog whistle to provoke a reaction that middle America may believe is unwarranted.
If someone deliberately ACTS racist, or tries to entice racists to support him, does it really matter if it's a calculated ruse?

As far as I'm aware your question is nonsense.  There is noone, Trump included, 'acting racist' or trying to entice racists to support them (well other than the Democrats who openly appeal to racism to get support from minorities, but again we're supposed to pretend that them accusing black and hispanic republicans of being race traitors is not open and blatant racism).

Quote
I don't see how it's "complicated" at all.

It's complicated because Trump's the one giving the left the words to make their public argument.  And again, they are clever words that trigger the left and seem non-racist to everyone else.  Is the left the arbiter of what is racist?  I don't believe that.  I believe they have taken it too far.  Declaring the Betsy Ross flag a symbol of racism?  A don't tread on me flag?  Heck the Yahoo article implied the Tea Party is racist - it's not.  And it's been asserted, even on here, that Republicans are inherently racist - they aren't.

The left is a bad judge.

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I also don't see how ANY level of opposition to the policies others are proposing excuse what he said and the way he's behaving.

There's never been an excuse for how Trump behaves.  That doesn't make him racist.

There's also no excuse for how those who oppose Trump are behaving (yet, we hear that excuse made all the time, in that Trump justifies whatever low they sink to).  So are we serious about what is "excused," or is it a Trump only rule?

There's no excuse at all for the way the media has lied.

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"they're aware that Trump isn't really a racist,"   Doubt's pretty much gone on this one.

Lol, I agree.  There is no doubt that Trump is not a racist.  His actually policies, in contrast to the questionable interpretation of his words, have been pro-black, pro-hispanic, pro-lower and middle class.  He's made life better for minorities in the country and actually materially increased their opportunities.  There's zero evidence that he's been a racist in business or his personal life.  Proven not to be a racist.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: D.W. on July 17, 2019, 10:18:40 AM
Your position on what is opinion and fact is noted.  Much like a scientific theory, we do not "prove" things with 100% certainty.  Even if the theory is shown to be accurate time after time.  It still remains a theory.

How do some people function in a world so full of "Fake" news and "Fake" science I wonder?
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: Seriati on July 17, 2019, 10:25:19 AM
You don't have to wonder, we function with TDS and extremism, with people attacking pizza shops to break up pedophile rings, or trying to blow up an ICE facility after writing an Anti-Fa manifesto.  We operate by increasing our tribalism and holding to zero compromise lines.

If that's the world you like, keep feeding it.  If not engage your objective criticism and call out over reaction when it occurs, support actual compromises - demand them, call on your representatives to work with the Republicans or with the Democrats, depending on who they are, and tell them in no uncertain terms you will be supporting their opponents if they insist on always holding to the party line.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: TheDrake on July 17, 2019, 11:54:24 AM
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It appears he has doubled down on the statement since and at least to me, it sounded very "race neutral" to my ears. but "you guys" are off chasing bogeymen. Everything is racist for you and most Democrat elites, it's plain as day for all("Trump voters") to see.

Really that sounds neutral to you? Even though they actually came from the US, not from those "*censored*hole" countries he wants to deport them to?

Take the politics out of it. Picture yourself in a seven-11 and somebody tells a brown man to go back to where they came from. Are you really ok with that?
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: Seriati on July 17, 2019, 12:11:36 PM
Take out the politics, picture yourself in a 7/11 and some tells a ranting white guy that if he doesn't like he should get out of the country.  Do you really have a problem with that?

This is why this particular point is tricky.  It's "clear" to the left its racism, it's "clear" to non-liberal elite, maybe even just the non-university professor elite, that telling someone to get out of the country doesn't have to be about race.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: cherrypoptart on July 17, 2019, 12:15:06 PM
If the guy is badmouthing America and constantly complaining and moaning about what a terrible evil place it is then it seems natural to suggest that maybe he'd like it better somewhere else. This didn't just come out of the blue. Some quotes from these women in question about America would be nice to have as a reference. How many are praise for America and how many trash talk our country?

And sure it's fine to criticize, but some people take it too far. And their suggestions for how to improve things would be calamitous. I saw a figure that AOC's Green New Deal would cost $600,000 per U.S. household. When confronted with that information AOC responded, "Huh, I actually thought, like, it'd be higher. And like totally, it's worth every penny! It's actually a bargain, cheaper than what we pay now when you factor in externalities. People often say, like, how are you going to pay for it and I find the question so puzzling because ‘How do you pay for something that’s more affordable? How do you pay for cheaper rent?’ You just pay for it,” she said. “We’re paying more now.” *

*Okay maybe not really but it wouldn't be a surprising reaction.

Conflating what Trump said with some skinhead walking up to a guy in a convenience store is taking it way out of context.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: Crunch on July 17, 2019, 12:17:42 PM
Quote
It gets complicated with Trump because of his mouth.  He constantly says things that are completely offensive.  In this case, I think he deliberately played on a meme/dog whistle to provoke a reaction that middle America may believe is unwarranted.
If someone deliberately ACTS racist, or tries to entice racists to support him, does it really matter if it's a calculated ruse?  Not that calculation jives at all with the, unpolished public speaker excuse he often skates by on.

I don't see how it's "complicated" at all.

I also don't see how ANY level of opposition to the policies others are proposing excuse what he said and the way he's behaving. 

"they're aware that Trump isn't really a racist,"   Doubt's pretty much gone on this one.  So keep pushing your, criticism = hate for country.  That one at least may gain some traction.  It's BS, but it seems likely to sway some people.  The "he's not a racist" line is a joke.  Either he is, or he just 'plays one on TV'.  In which case, who gives a poop about the difference?  It's a danger to our country either way.

If Trump is a racist then he’s really bad at it. He’s done more to help minorities in the last 2 years than the previous 4 presidents combined.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: D.W. on July 17, 2019, 12:17:45 PM
So it IS accepted as an appropriate answer to a Jeopardy category of "Things a skinhead would say" but NOT if viewed in the context of Trump speaking out about those who criticize the policies of the GOP?

I think that clears it up nicely.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: NobleHunter on July 17, 2019, 12:18:10 PM
Take out the politics, picture yourself in a 7/11 and some tells a ranting white guy that if he doesn't like he should get out of the country.  Do you really have a problem with that?

This is why this particular point is tricky.  It's "clear" to the left its racism, it's "clear" to non-liberal elite, maybe even just the non-university professor elite, that telling someone to get out of the country doesn't have to be about race.

"Leave" and "go back where you came from" do not mean the same thing. It's easy to make something not-racist when you completely change what people say.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: D.W. on July 17, 2019, 12:22:19 PM
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Why don’t they go back and help fix the totally broken and crime infested places from which they came.
Source:  the totally not Fake News, twitter account strait from the person in question...
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: Seriati on July 17, 2019, 12:42:02 PM
NH, that's a fair point, except my point isn't just about what the words say, its what people hear.  Everyone but the Native American in this country has some immigrant in them.  What's racist about telling a recent immigrant to adapt to our culture or go home?  Nothing really.

And D.W., please look back at my prior posts, where I specifically laid out what makes this "fake" is the spin.  Not just quoting the words but how the story is sold.  Trump is a racist, Clinton is not a racist he just said something he shouldn't.  There's no reason other that what you believe as a base about each person to treat them differently.  And what the left believes about Trump at the base has no actual foundation.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: TheDeamon on July 17, 2019, 12:44:27 PM
It gets complicated with Trump because of his mouth.  He constantly says things that are completely offensive, and that can be construed or misconstrued as being racially insensitive.  In this case, I think he deliberately played on a meme/dog whistle to provoke a reaction that middle America may believe is unwarranted.  It's gospel truth on the left that "go back where you came from" is inherently racist.  For the rest of the world, there's nothing about it that is racist on its face, and for many it actually seems like a completely non-racist statement.  In fact, when you are listening to individuals who clearly think systems that fail in foreign countries are better, or clearly champion positions that aren't mainstream American it even makes sense - if you hate America and like x country better, you should just put your money where you mouth is and go there.

I'm going to take a middle ground on this. "Go back where you came from" is often racially insensitive at best. Frequently racist at worst.

But there are uses that are more neutral or nuanced. Someone who has lived in Colorado for 40+ years telling a Californian to "go back where you came from" isn't meant to imply they(the California transplant) should "go back to their ethnic motherland" but should instead move back to California rather than trying to make Colorado into California 2.0 for example.

But context also matters. For the racist, "Go back where you came from" has a strongly implied "and don't come back" part attached. Something Trump actively countered by including a return criteria.

Which can take us to:

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It appears he has doubled down on the statement since and at least to me, it sounded very "race neutral" to my ears. but "you guys" are off chasing bogeymen. Everything is racist for you and most Democrat elites, it's plain as day for all("Trump voters") to see.

Really that sounds neutral to you? Even though they actually came from the US, not from those "*censored*hole" countries he wants to deport them to?

Take the politics out of it. Picture yourself in a seven-11 and somebody tells a brown man to go back to where they came from. Are you really ok with that?

Context matters, in most cases where it is encountered, it is not okay, and certainly is intended to be racist. But at the same time, that doesn't mean a non-racist usage is impossible. By the logic being used on Trump, there are a LOT of Black men who are White-Surpremacists, as much time as they spend throwing "the N-word" around, I mean, it's a word a Skinhead would use, that must mean they're all skinheads rights?

So Trump, with his words, gives his haters the tools to make the claims they want to believe are true, or more likely in my view, that they believe are damaging to assert - in other words - they see this as "proof" they can sell that Trump is racist.  Now why is it fake news?  Because the media is aware of the nuance, they're aware that Trump isn't really a racist, but they are completely desperate to tear him down and they think this is a powerful tool, so they ignore that and they run with Trump is a racist, and again it exposes them as hypocrites, Bill Clinton and Harry Reed have a conversation about Barack Obama getting them coffee, which is just as arguably racist - and would be seen as such if it were Trump and McConnell having the conversation - and it's just an unfortunate comment to be explained away, not a story about how they are racists.

Trump has become this generations ink blot test. That he's deliberately playing on "dog whistles" that the left has been parroting about for years makes it even more interesting to watch play out. Pavlov's Dog is alive and well to this day it seems.

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Biden actually says he found common ground to work with racists and opposed busing and he's not a racist, he just has some positions that he's refined.  Compare that to how far out of context they took Trump's quote about good people on both sides (of the statue debate) to mean that he thought there were good racists (which he specifically denied in they same speech).

I think the amount of criticism he received from the Democrats over that same item further helped cement a lot of future voters behind the Republican Party for 2020. They twisted Biden's words around like a pretzel, used it to attack him, but at the same time also demonstrated that the favored Approach of many Democrats in the current crop of "rising powers" have an approach to resolving problems which is very un-American, and very non-viable in the long term for anybody who has much in terms of life experience. Amazingly enough, Biden was right about something, and the Democrats ran him over the coals for daring to say such a thing.

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So what is the REAL news here?  Is it that Trump's a racist (that seems a fake story to me).  Or that Trump said something that seems racially insensitive, but that arguably isn't (much more likely to be true).  Or that Trump rightfully called out certain Congresswomen, who as a matter of policy seem to trade on hating America and a good chunk of Americans, whom they don't believe have legitimate views?  Which story did you hear?

I heard a repeat of the story from 2016, people voted for Trump then because they felt the Democratic Party was heading down a path where people could not speak plainly about certain things "because it had racial undertones" associated with them, for fear of the social(and possibly legal) costs of doing so. They've seen the fears of Social costs writ large since then, but because Trump's the one in Office right now, they don't need to fear the legal aspect, for now.

They'll be voting in 2020 to make sure it stays that way. When simple truths cannot be spoken "because that's racist!" the ability to have any meaningful dialogue on how to move forward is impossible. But as the Democrats seems to make everything racist, it appears the time for dialogue is not happening anytime in the foreseeable future.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: D.W. on July 17, 2019, 12:46:32 PM
Quote
Trump is a racist, Clinton is not a racist he just said something he shouldn't.
Have I ever been one to defend "MY side" when they do terrible *censored*?  Maybe I do and just don't notice?  Otherwise, the what-about-ism never persuades me.

You want someone to concede the media has its darlings and its villains?  Consider it done.  If that excuses everything else, then all I can say is I'm disappointed. 
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: NobleHunter on July 17, 2019, 12:55:53 PM
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Context matters, in most cases where it is encountered, it is not okay, and certainly is intended to be racist. But at the same time, that doesn't mean a non-racist usage is impossible. By the logic being used on Trump, there are a LOT of Black men who are White-Surpremacists, as much time as they spend throwing "the N-word" around, I mean, it's a word a Skinhead would use, that must mean they're all skinheads rights?

In this context, Trump was telling mostly American-born Representatives to go back to the countries they came from. That's *censored*ing racist.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: Seriati on July 17, 2019, 01:12:30 PM
Quote
Trump is a racist, Clinton is not a racist he just said something he shouldn't.
Have I ever been one to defend "MY side" when they do terrible *censored*?  Maybe I do and just don't notice?  Otherwise, the what-about-ism never persuades me.

It's not whataboutism, which is about justifying or distracting.  That's a point that specifically goes to credibility.  The media/left interpretation of what is racist is not credible, and that's getting worse not better for middle America when there are obvious contradictions that can be easily demonstrated.

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You want someone to concede the media has its darlings and its villains?  Consider it done.  If that excuses everything else, then all I can say is I'm disappointed.

It excuses nothing.  It does however mean that media saying Trump is racist has no value in determining if Trump is racist.  Ergo this whole thread's point, and its very title, boils down to nonsense.  It's an assertion without merit.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: D.W. on July 17, 2019, 01:43:56 PM
I cannot respond further at present without saying things I don't think I could take back.  As someone who respects the other posters here even when I disagree vehemently with their political positions, I don't think I have anything further to say right now.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: Seriati on July 17, 2019, 01:47:47 PM
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We will speak...with the authority that comes with the strength of knowing out of many come one, and that's who we are. And he needs to go back to where he came from.

Kamala Harris

Is this racist too?  Directed at Trump, as a response to his comments.  Seems totally fine to me, which again just proves that the words themselves are not an inherent racist signal.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: NobleHunter on July 17, 2019, 01:54:23 PM
Where do you think Harris is telling Trump to go?

And I'm pretty sure my question implies a rude answer which Harris' statement doesn't seem to. Keep that in mind when making absolute statements about what words mean what.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: TheDrake on July 17, 2019, 02:57:25 PM
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We will speak...with the authority that comes with the strength of knowing out of many come one, and that's who we are. And he needs to go back to where he came from.

Kamala Harris

Is this racist too?  Directed at Trump, as a response to his comments.  Seems totally fine to me, which again just proves that the words themselves are not an inherent racist signal.

If he had ONLY said go back where you came from, rather than expanding on that by making it clear he meant the country their families came from, it could have been fine. It could have meant leaving DC for their home town, or going back to their reality TV show or something else entirely.

Let's recap his full quote, since a refresher seems in order.

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“Why don’t they go back and help fix the totally broken and crime infested places from which they came. Then come back and show us how​ it is done​,” he continued. “​These places need your help badly, you can’t leave fast enough. I’m sure that Nancy Pelosi would be very happy to quickly work out free travel arrangements!​”

Go ahead and try and make that equivalent to anything Harris has ever said.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: TheDrake on July 17, 2019, 03:05:47 PM
Take out the politics, picture yourself in a 7/11 and some tells a ranting white guy that if he doesn't like he should get out of the country.  Do you really have a problem with that?

This is why this particular point is tricky.  It's "clear" to the left its racism, it's "clear" to non-liberal elite, maybe even just the non-university professor elite, that telling someone to get out of the country doesn't have to be about race.

Honestly, the "love it or leave it" argument has always irked me. Even when it isn't particularly racist. It's Archie Bunker talk (and his character was most definitely a racist, even though he wasn't going to commit or condone hate crimes against minorities).
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: Wayward Son on July 17, 2019, 03:24:27 PM
No matter how anyone tries to spin in, when you tell a minority to "go back to where you came from," you are telling them that they are not Americans, that they are foreigners, and that you don't want them here.  That, since the person is not white, they must be from somewhere else, and belong there.  That is racism, pure and simple.  Maybe not as bad as those who want to hang or deport minorities, maybe not as bad as those who would forbid marriages between races and keep them separate, but it's still solidly racist.

Trump is a racist.  It is now indisputable.  Get over it.

All these excuses, all these explanations and qualifications and denials, all this pretending that someone is lying to you, all those do is enable him and racists like him.  All you are doing is letting racists, better than him or as bad as him or worse than him, know that you will accept them, embrace them, call them friend, so long as you get what you want.  You are standing tall with racists.  You are calling for dividing America into real Americans and those who are not, based on race and ethnicity and skin color and politics.  You are helping these people turn our country back into the racist pit it was in the past, where a gang of whites could drive out an entire town of blacks when they felt like it.  Is this really what you want to do?

And for what?  Another Supreme Court justice?  More tax breaks that are increasing the deficit?  Protection from those vicious women and children from "sh*thole" countries?  Is the price for your decency and integrity really that low?

Republicans used to denigrate Democrats for not being smart, for having no integrity, for supporting Bill Clinton who cheated on his wife.  Now no Republican cares.  Trump married three times, sleeping with other women?  Who cares.  Mitch McConnell lying through his teeth about a "Senate tradition" to let the next President choose a Supreme court nominee?  Why, everyone lies.  Trump telling a Latina, a Muslim, and a Black American to go back to where they came from?  Why, THAT'S WHAT AMERICA STANDS FOR!  ::)

There is no place left to hide anymore.  The Supreme Court recently said that the Trump Administration lied to them about the reason for the citizenship question to be added to the census.  There have been more appointees by the President to resign or get booted out because of corruption than any other recent Administration that I can recall.  And we know the President lies to us, openly, blatantly, unabashedly.  It's time to admit that this President and his Administration are a disaster.  It's time to stand up for American values.

Or stand firm with the racist.  It's your choice.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: Seriati on July 17, 2019, 03:28:09 PM
Yeah, no Wayward.  Trump is not a racist.  Prove it by demonstrating any actions that he's taking that are racist.  You can't argue with the fact that he's making life better for American citizens of minority descent so you're going to pretend that he said magic words that let you declare the motives in his soul.  Not buying it.

Meanwhile, I'm going to continue to call out the left's open racism.  It's just a fact that if you don't call it out you are standing with racists.  What fun, now we're all standing accused of standing with racists, except my accusation is more credible than yours.  :P
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: DonaldD on July 17, 2019, 03:39:08 PM
Nobody is calling you a racist because your partisan blinders don't allow you to evaluate Trump's statements, Seriati. Morally corrupt, foolish, yes.  Racist - not yet.

As for his actions, they go back decades. Discrimination in housing.  The Central Park 5.  Birtherism.  And it's not like this is Trump's first foray into racist wording: Mexican rapists. S**thole countries.  "Why don’t they go back and help fix the totally broken and crime infested places (read: s**thole countries) from which they came"
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: TheDeamon on July 17, 2019, 03:40:14 PM
Yeah, no Wayward.  Trump is not a racist.  Prove it by demonstrating any actions that he's taking that are racist.  You can't argue with the fact that he's making life better for American citizens of minority descent so you're going to pretend that he said magic words that let you declare the motives in his soul.  Not buying it.

Meanwhile, I'm going to continue to call out the left's open racism.  It's just a fact that if you don't call it out you are standing with racists.  What fun, now we're all standing accused of standing with racists, except my accusation is more credible than yours.  :P

I've pretty much decided that short of a shooting war breaking out(or nearly doing so), no meaningful discourse in regards to racism or race relations is likely to happen to in the next 20 to 30 years at a minimum. If anything, things are going to get worse in the interim.

Which is quite sad. It's better to make jaw-jaw than war-war, but jaw-jaw is pointless at this point, people are more interested in talking points and shutting down meaningful discussions than pull their heads out of their ass. The only thing that's likely to fix that is for everyone involved to get old and die so another generation can try to fix it, or for both sides to end up staring down the barrel of a gun.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: D.W. on July 17, 2019, 03:44:20 PM
I ridiculously (in retrospect) believed we were further ahead than in any point of my lifetime when Obama won.  Apparently all it meant was the pendulum was being pulled back for a bigger swing the other direction than I thought to ever see.

I hope yer wrong TheDaemon.  A lot can change (in shorter time than that), hopefully for the better. 

Also, is the irony of the MAGA slogan just lost on everyone when it comes to people being condemned for "hating America" when they point out its faults?
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: TheDrake on July 17, 2019, 03:52:52 PM
There's prejudice, and there's discrimination. Both are racism. It doesn't really matter if his policies are helping people of color, or even if they disproportionately help people of color more than the average citizen. You are still prejudiced against the "towelheads" or anyone else who doesn't conform to your idea of what an American should look and act like.

Do you seriously think that Trump would tell Beto to go back where he came from? Or Pelosi? Or Rosie O'Donnell? Or any other white nemesis?

Is it possible that he's just trying to think of the most hurtful thing he can say, and that in this case he came up with this idea.

Meanwhile, what Donald said. There are plenty of overt acts to consider in addition to his words. And what words there are.

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“The only guys I want counting my money are short guys that wear yarmulkes all day,” he reportedly said. The black accountant, he said, was lazy, but it was “probably not his fault, because laziness is a trait in blacks.”

If a job applicant said something like that, are you going to hire him? If it was a friend of yours, would you chuckle and clap him on the back?
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: Wayward Son on July 17, 2019, 03:57:32 PM
Only for those who find you more credible than me, Seriati.  And I think that is starting to wear thin.

Exactly what has Trump actually done to make life better for minorities?  Been President during a up-turning economy?  What did he do to make the economy turn up?  Cut taxes?  He didn't do that; Congress did.  He didn't help them at all.  What else did he do?  What else?

And what exactly do you have to "do" to prove you believe minorities to be second-class citizens and not real Americans, or even real people?  What actions would you consider to be racist that the President could do?  Call blacks "n*gg*rs?"  What would it take?

He's supported making it harder for minorities to vote.  He's called immigrants from brown-skinned countries rapists and murderers.  He's separated families of immigrants on thin pretexts, hoped that it would discourage people from coming here, and then blamed Democrats for it all. 

For more evidence, see one of Trump's latest tweets. (https://www.electoral-vote.com/evp2019/Pres/Maps/Jul17.html#item-1)

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Omar is polling at 8%, Cortez at 21%. Nancy Pelosi tried to push them away, but now they are forever wedded to the Democrat Party. See you in 2020!

Three guesses which demographic has Omar polling at 8% and Cortez at 21%.  (And the first two don't count.)  The constituents of their respective districts? Every American, nationally? No, neither of those.  Ever wonder why he would think that that particular demographic speaks for all of America? ;)

Democrats are racists, too.  We all are, to some extent.  But most of us recognize it, and have enough common sense not to let it affect our words and judgement too much.  But Trump doesn't.  He's letting minorities know that he doesn't consider them equal to him and his tribe.  If he didn't know to stop before now, what makes you think he'll have sense to stop on worse matters?

Trump is a liar, a fool and a racist.  You may think it worse for me to stand with the party that wants to make this country more equal and fair, but you will still have to take responsibility for those you stand with, whether you recognize who they are or not.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: cherrypoptart on July 17, 2019, 04:04:38 PM
Thanks to Sean Hannity for the reminder of our racist former Vice-President's racist comment that, "You cannot go to a 7-Eleven or a Dunkin' Donuts unless you have a slight Indian accent. I'm not joking."

Also from freebeacon.com: Biden falsely boasted that Delaware was a slave state to explain why he would remain competitive in southern primaries.

"You don’t know my state. My state was a slave state … my state is the 8th largest black population in the country," he said."

The vice president decided to practice that accent (Indian) on the campaign trail in 2012. In a speech criticizing Mitt Romney for outsourcing, Biden donned an Indian accent to mock the notion of Indians trying to speak English.

"How many times you get the call, ‘I like to talk to you about your … credit card," he said, abandoning the mock accent. "It’s a little over done."

----------------------------------

So how many headlines did we see about our racist Vice President? "Racist Vice President Biden... blah blah blah". None. Zip. Zilch. Nada.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: cherrypoptart on July 17, 2019, 04:11:01 PM
“The only guys I want counting my money are short guys that wear yarmulkes all day,” he reportedly said. The black accountant, he said, was lazy, but it was “probably not his fault, because laziness is a trait in blacks.”

Now THAT is definitely racist. So if you thought I had no line that's wrong. That definitely crosses the line by a long ways.

Reportedly said though. Reportedly, Trump also raped a girl when she was only 13. Reportedly, Trump colluded with Russia to steal the election from Hillary who stole it fair and square from Bernie. But if Trump really did say that, that's definitely a racist thing to say.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: D.W. on July 17, 2019, 04:17:13 PM
Even if there was a recording it would either be, taken out of context as he was really just parodying that position, and meant the exact opposite.  Or maybe "fake news" would be turned to deep-fakes.  (A legitimate counter that may soon be the standard for any unfortunate leaks)
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: ScottF on July 17, 2019, 04:31:15 PM
There's prejudice, and there's discrimination. Both are racism.

Right. Everything is racism.

If you saw a group of preppy white kids walking down the street together, you would most likely have preconceived ideas about their behaviors, attitudes, etc. Unless you thought of them as inferior/unequal humans, you would be exhibiting prejudice but not racism, see?

Works exactly the same if you copy/replace with "latino gang-banger looking kids" or "black inner-city looking kids". Prejudicial? Yes. Racist? Also possible, but not they are not synonymous at all.

Today's actual racists must be absolutely loving the cover they get from all manner of stupid behavior being classified as racist by default.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: TheDrake on July 17, 2019, 04:36:52 PM
When confronted with that quote, Trump said in an interview that the account (from a former employee) was probably true. He later turned around and denied it.

As for Biden, he already doesn't have my support. And by the way, there was quite the uproar recently when he bragged about his great working relationship with segregationist senators not to mention being attacked for his record on busing. On the other hand, he also had a body of work to eliminate racial disparity, including the Voting Rights Act.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: DonaldD on July 17, 2019, 04:39:20 PM
When Richard Spencer characterizes your tweet as racist...
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: ScottF on July 17, 2019, 04:46:27 PM
Nobody is calling you a racist because your partisan blinders don't allow you to evaluate Trump's statements, Seriati. Morally corrupt, foolish, yes.  Racist - not yet.

Lol, love the ominous "not yet" here. Be careful Seriati - your inner thoughts are walking a fine, potentially racist line. DonaldD will let you know if and when you cross it.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: DonaldD on July 17, 2019, 04:48:51 PM
No, I was pointing out that "nobody" had yet done so - I cannot control what silly things other people might say in the future (as an example, see your preceding post, ScottF)
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: ScottF on July 17, 2019, 05:34:22 PM
No, I was pointing out that "nobody" had yet done so - I cannot control what silly things other people might say in the future (as an example, see your preceding post, ScottF)

My bad, I assumed like the royal we, you were referring to the royal nobody - seeing as "nobody" had called him morally corrupt either. Or were you referring to your own actual opinion for that part?
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: TheDeamon on July 17, 2019, 05:45:03 PM
I ridiculously (in retrospect) believed we were further ahead than in any point of my lifetime when Obama won.  Apparently all it meant was the pendulum was being pulled back for a bigger swing the other direction than I thought to ever see.

I hope yer wrong TheDaemon.  A lot can change (in shorter time than that), hopefully for the better.
 

It could change, but there are too many entrenched power elite that are too invested in what is going on right now, and sadly there's a new generation threatening within the Democratic side of things to keep things at status-quo for another 50 years. Through "good intentions" of course.

Obama's presidency was a squandered opportunity, in more ways than one, and Obama shares a fair bit of that blame.

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Also, is the irony of the MAGA slogan just lost on everyone when it comes to people being condemned for "hating America" when they point out its faults?

I have issues with MAGA as an expression myself, but it isn't for the reasons most left-wits have with it. America has never been about having "achieved perfection" America has always been about striving for a better life, for ourselves and those around us. The problem in play now is the left-wits are entirely "me centric" while complaining about power elites that are likewise very self-focused themselves.

But the left-wing "solution" is likely to only make things worse, as it ends up feeding into the worst traits of humanity rather than its best.

The Republican/Corporate side is a stinking turd as well, but at least their option doesn't crash the economy into a brick wall in the process.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: TheDrake on July 17, 2019, 05:50:58 PM
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Works exactly the same if you copy/replace with "latino gang-banger looking kids" or "black inner-city looking kids". Prejudicial? Yes. Racist? Also possible, but not they are not synonymous at all.


Is it the same? It's when you have the suspicious attitude about the black kids in preppy clothes and ignore the white kids wearing their pants around their thighs that you're in trouble.

You can also say something racist and not be a card carrying proud boy. When you're called on it, apologize and try to do better. Not double down and whine about how the world has gone crazy and you don't dare open your mouth.

Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: ScottF on July 17, 2019, 05:55:42 PM
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It's when you have the suspicious attitude about the black kids in preppy clothes and ignore the white kids wearing their pants around their thighs that you're in trouble.

We agree.

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You can also say something racist and not be a card carrying proud boy. When you're called on it, apologize and try to do better. Not double down and whine about how the world has gone crazy and you don't dare open your mouth.

Without getting into their validity, today's apologies act like chum in the water for the outraged.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: Crunch on July 17, 2019, 06:14:39 PM
Or stand firm with the racist.  It's your choice.

 We live in Orwellian times when those supporting racial segregation call others racist. You realize that calling people a racist no longer has any meaning, right? When people from the party of Robert Byrd and Ralph Northam call others a racist, it means literally nothing.

So call everyone a racist. It’s just your virtue signaling
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: TheDrake on July 17, 2019, 06:22:49 PM
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It's when you have the suspicious attitude about the black kids in preppy clothes and ignore the white kids wearing their pants around their thighs that you're in trouble.

We agree.

Quote

You can also say something racist and not be a card carrying proud boy. When you're called on it, apologize and try to do better. Not double down and whine about how the world has gone crazy and you don't dare open your mouth.

Without getting into their validity, today's apologies act like chum in the water for the outraged.

Sincerity is important. Trump has never been capable of a sincere apology.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: Pete at Home on July 17, 2019, 06:25:13 PM
Quote

It's when you have the suspicious attitude about the black kids in preppy clothes and ignore the white kids wearing their pants around their thighs that you're in trouble.

We agree.

Quote

You can also say something racist and not be a card carrying proud boy. When you're called on it, apologize and try to do better. Not double down and whine about how the world has gone crazy and you don't dare open your mouth.

Without getting into their validity, today's apologies act like chum in the water for the outraged.

Sincerity is important. Trump has never been capable of a sincere apology.

How did he ever get elected? Oh year; he ran against Mrs Telltale Smirk.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: ScottF on July 17, 2019, 07:12:41 PM
A recent poll shows the majority of Mexican citizens support deporting Central Americans coming through their country. It appears Trump's racist white nationalism is spreading.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: TheDrake on July 17, 2019, 08:10:31 PM
A recent poll shows the majority of Mexican citizens support deporting Central Americans coming through their country. It appears Trump's racist white nationalism is spreading.

 ::)
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: Seriati on July 18, 2019, 10:23:51 AM
No matter how anyone tries to spin in, when you tell a minority to "go back to where you came from," you are telling them that they are not Americans, that they are foreigners, and that you don't want them here.  That, since the person is not white, they must be from somewhere else, and belong there.  That is racism, pure and simple.

It's about the failure of the melting pot.  American is an ideal not a skin color.  If you don't share the ideals, which I don't think any of the "squad" really do, you are not really American.  Ilhan Omar, is a flat out anti-semite who stands for equating America to terrorism.  Ayanna Pressley is a straight up racist and her quote about not needing any more brown faces that don't want to be brown voices proves it, to her you are only valuable for your color and only if you agree with her.  Tlaib's got a view point that comes from her Palenstinian roots that includes lies about the history of Israel.  And AOC, what is part of American exceptionalism that she doesn't hate?

They don't share the ideals of a liberal democracy, they have no tolerance for divirgent views.  They have no ability to reach compromises, and they'd rather leave children to die at the border than actually provide funding to help the situation.  Effectively, their "support" is contingent on eliminating the entirity of our immigration laws - an extreme fringe position.  I mean just yesterday, AOC tried to defend being labelled communist (which as accurate description of her) because that has a long history of links to white supremacy.  It's the only card they know, and yes, I don't think they believe in American values.  They are the stereotypical group that believes in Democracy until they are in power, and then that there's no more need for voting.

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Maybe not as bad as those who want to hang or deport minorities,

Hang OR deport?   Are you listening to yourself?  Deporting is in the law. PERIOD.  Wanting people deported is a completely legitimate position.

I'm not aware of anyone, that is advocating for hanging people.  But hey, in the days' of the internet you can always find a troll, to pretend like a despicable strawman was a reasonable response.

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maybe not as bad as those who would forbid marriages between races and keep them separate, but it's still solidly racist.

Forbidding marriages?  Lol, that is racist.  Why you digging things that have been settled for 50 years (settled by the way by the application of the "racist" US legal system that's done more to bring social justice to minorities than any other system in the entirety of history).

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Trump is a racist.  It is now indisputable.  Get over it.

Yeah no.  You're not an impartial arbiter.  All you are doing is repeating your confirmation bias.  Face it, Trump played you and the rest of the woke again.

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All these excuses, all these explanations and qualifications and denials, all this pretending that someone is lying to you, all those do is enable him and racists like him.

Enable "racists" like Trump to do what exactly?  Directly improve the lives of the minorities in the country?  True he has, bringing more jobs and more real wage increases to them, ensuring that the tax code was revised to provide a tax benefit to every lower class tax payer notwithstanding the lies.  Reforming an unfair prison system put in place by the Democratic President Bill Clinton?  Yep, did that too.  Actually focusing attention on a border situation that is insane that harms the ethnic hispanic immigrants who come (they are a minority here, but not by much, but a majority where they come from)?  Yep doing that too, notwithstanding the "good guys" consistently advocating for ignoring the law, consistently encouraging economic migrants to lie about asylum and to risk their lives (some of which have lost them).  Does it bother you that the pictures of the "abuse" of the Trump program have consistently been shown to pictures under Obama?  Pretty much proof that the "caring" "non-racist" left does not care about Brown people other than as a political point.

I have zero tolerance for claiming the high horse when you consistently support policies that have a real racist effect.  That undermine economic success for minorities.  That shut down minority voices that aren't "Democratic party approved as authentic."  So calling people who are making real differences racists, when the other party routinely spreads misery is the ultimate in form over substance.

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You are standing tall with racists.

Have you condemned Pressley, she's an honest to goodness racist, she only sees color and not the real people behind it. 

I'm standing with people who's actions demonstrate they are working to make life better for all Americans without regard to race.  Or do you have some evidence of a Trump policy that is racist or harming minorities that you've kept in the vest?  Why would you do that?

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You are calling for dividing America into real Americans and those who are not, based on race and ethnicity and skin color and politics.

Based on politics only, and then only a limited set.  The rest is just a lie. 

Quote
You are helping these people turn our country back into the racist pit it was in the past, where a gang of whites could drive out an entire town of blacks when they felt like it.  Is this really what you want to do?

Actually you are the one "helping" by refusing to look at real people and real impacts, but only paying attention to dog whistles, triggers and ultimately endorsing seeing people as derivative of the color of their skin.  Identity politics are racist, and they are at the open core of what it means to be a Progressive today.  There's no "high minded" exception, there's no "you mean well" exemption, if you think race is the most important characteristic rather than beliefs you're following a racist path into irrelevancies.

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And for what?  Another Supreme Court justice?

For the Rule of law.  Name me the "swing" liberal justice.  I'll wait.

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More tax breaks that are increasing the deficit?

And far more growth than the Obama subsidies, which also increased the deficit.  I'm not a fan of the deficit, for the obvious reasons of the potential harm it could cause.  But there's no easy fix, and at the end of the day, Pyrtolin was correct on the point about what money is and that debt is ultimately a fiction (it's just a fiction that we wouldn't survive being pierced).

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Protection from those vicious women and children from "sh*thole" countries?

Lol, are they not sh*thole countries?  Great to hear, I guess we can deny all asylum claims from people that originated from them.  Oh wait, now they are sh*thole countries and there's a credible threat?  Consistency not a strong point today is it.

Fact is people are fleeing these countries because they are a mess, almost all of them economically, and many of them politically.  How is that at all inconsistent with what was said?  Answer its not, you're just harping on a sound bite without carrying any water on analysis.    There is no part of the Democratic position on this that holds together as logically consistent.

And when you have representatives advocating we adopt the policies that turned them into sh*thole countries?  Yeah, they are unAmerican.

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Is the price for your decency and integrity really that low?

No my decency and integrity require that I point out your nonsense, even in the face of what you believer are clear wins.  I already acknowledged that what Trump said is pretty defined as racist by the Woke, and pointed out to you that to the rest of the country it looks pretty reasonable on its face.  The power to play on the discomfort that people feel discussing race, because they don't want to get labelled with the racism charge, from which there is no defense, is being deliberately challenged by Trump.

That's the problem with being in a woke bubble, you have been reinforced into believing there is no longer any question on some topics.  Don't believe me, do you recall how stunned everyone living in a left bubble was on election night in 2016?

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Republicans used to denigrate Democrats for not being smart, for having no integrity, for supporting Bill Clinton who cheated on his wife.  Now no Republican cares.  Trump married three times, sleeping with other women?  Who cares.

I agree, you won that fight.  The left hammered the point, the media hammered the point, and ultimately the teachers taught the point.  Why are you stunned about this 2 decades later?   Lol.  But even those that do care, and there are many, still have to make a choice between 2 people for President and the Democrats almost never put up someone who can credibly win the moral fight or that will commit to the positions that those voters care about.

Once again you seem to be calling for the otherside to vote against their own interests out of disgust.  And there's a reason you do that, to my knowledge only the Republicans ever vote against their own interests as a matter of principal (Exhibit A, Roy Moore - not elected, Exhibit B, Bob Menendez - re-elected).

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Mitch McConnell lying through his teeth about a "Senate tradition" to let the next President choose a Supreme court nominee?  Why, everyone lies.

I agree there was no such tradition, though good ole Joe Biden certainly gave it cover.  And so what?  All your angst on this complete crap, there's no chance that the Democrats would not have done the same.  I mean heck the Senate has tied up certain Trump appointments for more than 2 years out of sheer spite, and I don't see a word of complaint of you.

Yet calling me out for a Supreme Court nominee interest, and then revealing your own fixation on it, doesn't cause you to blink an eye.  So like wow on your laundry list of things that "only Trump would do" (or the Democats would have done and will do, but you would have and will cheer it on, because you know "good guys and all").

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Trump telling a Latina, a Muslim, and a Black American to go back to where they came from?  Why, THAT'S WHAT AMERICA STANDS FOR!  ::)

Trump telling a group of anti-semitic, anti-American, communists that happen to be Congresswomen to go back where they came from?  I don't think he gives two shakes about their ethnicity.

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There is no place left to hide anymore.  The Supreme Court recently said that the Trump Administration lied to them about the reason for the citizenship question to be added to the census.

The SC said it was within the executive discretion to do it but they have to provide a legitimate reason.  As you can't retroactively provide a reason, as know one would believe that was the real reason, they had to decide based on the reason that was provided, which they found insufficient.  Given 6 more months, the question would be on the census.

So congratulations, your side established the legality of the question, and managed to "win" the day on a technical argument.  So I guess in the left's world view losing on the principal but achieving the result is pretty much all that they care about.

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There have been more appointees by the President to resign or get booted out because of corruption than any other recent Administration that I can recall.

There has been more outsiders brought in and malicious scrutiny than with any President in history.  People resigning because your side has harassed their families to the point they feel unsafe is nothing to be proud of.

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And we know the President lies to us, openly, blatantly, unabashedly.

And we know the media mischaraterizes things with which they disagree as lies falsely.  I find the vast majority of Trump's "lies" to be media BS or immaterial.

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It's time to admit that this President and his Administration are a disaster.  It's time to stand up for American values.

It's time to admit that this President has gotten a lot of good done, and would have done more but for the deliberate obstruction of the left.

So yes, stand up for American values.

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Or stand firm with the racist.  It's your choice.

I'll keep supporting the President whose actions have been good, rather than make the horrible decision to switch to supporting open racists on the left with horrible policies.  Will you stop standing up with racists just because they use pretty words?
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: Seriati on July 18, 2019, 10:44:52 AM
Nobody is calling you a racist because your partisan blinders don't allow you to evaluate Trump's statements, Seriati. Morally corrupt, foolish, yes.  Racist - not yet.

Nah you're wrong there.  In Woke world Wayward is essentially setting up a purity test, with an implicit Kafka trap.  Any answer but agreeing Trump is a racist and denouncing him means you are a racist  too.  Coudn't think of a way to solidify more people behind Trump than to call them racists for positions they believe are reasonable.  But hey, I don't think the same way a Woke person does.

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As for his actions, they go back decades. Discrimination in housing.

I presume you're talking about the suits in the early seventies, when he was in his early 20's and was named President of his father's real estate company.  There's some truth to the idea that the Company discriminated, of course that's hopelessly muddled when you apply to a racist belief of the Trumps.  At that time, white flight was a real phenomenum, and most of the people that rented were open or latent racists.  It would have been bad business to be non-discriminatory, that's why we had to pass the fair housing act in 1968, because anyone that didn't want to discriminate would have lost money as their rents tanked. 

I mean you have Trump's father lying about his German roots in the 1940s because a large number of his tenants were Jewish.  I think you can accurately and correctly believe that the Trump's did what was best for business.  But sure if you want to pull it out of context and pretend like everyone else was a good person and what they are accused of wasn't effectively the rule and good business, go ahead.

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The Central Park 5.

I'm still befuddled at why this strikes people as racist.  Hugely public story, in NYC, everyone everywhere in the country, let alone big whigs in NY was outraged.  It's not like the prosecutors weren't convinced they had the right guys.  I think too people are often skeptical when people are let off years later and believe that it was a technicality not innocence that changed the verdict.

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Birtherism.

Beaten to death, legitimate point to question in light of his relatives claims he was born in Kenya.  I'm still baffled by everyone who thinks showing tax returns should be mandatory but a birth certificate shouldn't when the later is in the Constitution.

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And it's not like this is Trump's first foray into racist wording: Mexican rapists.

Which the media manipulation created the controversy.  Unless you're asserting that contrary to fact the open border hasn't been repeatedly crossed by criminal elements.

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S**thole countries.

See above, they are.

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"Why don’t they go back and help fix the totally broken and crime infested places (read: s**thole countries) from which they came"

If they think those systems are so superior, since they are advocating adopting them here, why not go show us they can work by fixing the places they've been tried.

Again, legitimate policy question couched in Work-triggering dialectic.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: rightleft22 on July 18, 2019, 10:46:03 AM
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It's about the failure of the melting pot.  American is an ideal not a skin color.  If you don't share the ideals, which I don't think any of the "squad" really do, you are not really American.

So when Trump was campaigning and complaining about America he's a patriot because his ideals match... what? yours? When these woman campaign and get elected on how they see those ideals there not really American.... A nation built on challenging the status quo. Woman that just happen to be of different ethnic race.

Trump by his and your reasoning could say the same thing about Bernie Sanders. Why not call him out? Why not tell him go leave and go back to where he came from.

I'm sorry but these arguments being put up to defend the Character of Trump makes me sick.  I get why people support his policies but not why they defend his character. Plato must be rolling around in his grave.

Trump latest rally was disgusting. Trump spends very little time talking policies for him its all personal rhetoric much of which centers on a persons race. Trump usess race to decide and create hate and that makes him a racist

Trump is a raciest.  And Shame on you and shame on everyone

Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: NobleHunter on July 18, 2019, 10:50:39 AM
If Trump said tomorrow, "N****** b****** should stop telling me what to do," certain people would say, "Trump was actually expressing solidarity with black rap and hip hop musicians and their frustration with opinionated women. You're the real racist for condemning Trump's attempt to reach out to a black community."
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: Seriati on July 18, 2019, 11:00:33 AM
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It's about the failure of the melting pot.  American is an ideal not a skin color.  If you don't share the ideals, which I don't think any of the "squad" really do, you are not really American.

So when Trump was campaigning and complaining about America he's a patriot because his ideals match... what? yours? When these woman campaign and get elected on how they see those ideals there not really American.... A nation built on challenging the status quo. Woman that just happen to be of different ethnic race.

I don't think their race is happenstance.  Why do you think Pressely made that statement about brown faces, brown voices.  The left only accepts minority voices that parrot the most radical dependency dialectic available. 

Success, can't be allowed because it disproves the victimhood dialectic that is needed for political success.

Depedency on government, has to be lauded and the stigma removed because the permanent dependent class is the left's political power.

School choice, even where it demonstrably achieves better results for minorities, has to be barred because it infringes on the teacher's union.  Wait, what?  That's anti-minority, how did that slip in?  Oh yeah, because the left trades minority issues as political capital and focuses on enforcing voting behavior by dependency.  And hey this helps to undermine minority success and that also protects the voting base.

How about $15 minimum wage?  Yes, lets put the bottom end of the American citizen working class out of work, win/win - more dependency, and now since the work still needs done, we create under the table low wage jobs for the illegal immigrants who also are going to help us generate votes.  Got to protect counting them on the census to maximise our voting power.  More suffering for poor Americans, more opportunity to give them handouts and create voting dependency.

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Trump by his and your reasoning could say the same thing about Bernie Sanders. Why not call him out? Why not tell him go leave and go back to where he came from.

Trump will be happy to call out Bernie, as soon as he becomes the best target.  In the meantime, I'd suggest he doesn't have enough sway.   

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I'm sorry but these arguments being put up to defend the Character of Trump makes me sick.  I get why people support his policies but not why they defend his character. Plato must be rolling around in his grave.

I think you're missing the point.  I'm not defending his character.  I'm challenging lies about it.  Trump is not a high character guy.  But I've seen nothing to make me think he's pursuing racist policies and a heck of a lot to make me think he's pursuing policies that are great for minorities.

In fact, he's done so well on that point, I'm expecting that he'll actually make inroads on the black vote and possibly even segments of the hispanic vote.  He's no dummy, he knows that if he can create wedges in those groups the Dems are done, and unlike the Dems who are tied to policies intended to hurt those people while couched in the language of helping, he's able to pursue policies that really help them.  If he can connect the facts of life getting better to his policies the Dems will be in for a real bad night on election day (and the Dems are only going to stop that by lying, like they always have, about the economy, about taxes, about whatever they need to say).

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Trump latest rally was disgusting. Trump spends very little time talking policies for him its all personal rhetoric much of which centers on a persons race. Trump usess race to decide and create hate and that makes him a racist

I've still never watched a rally, but every time, EVERY TIME I've gone to a transcript I've found the media version to be false.

If you want me to buy the racist label, simple challenge, walk me through the racist policies he's pursuing (don't even try with border security, there's nothing racist about a position the majority of the country wants enforced).
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: rightleft22 on July 18, 2019, 11:41:27 AM
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If you want me to buy the racist label, simple challenge, walk me through the racist policies he's pursuing (don't even try with border security, there's nothing racist about a position the majority of the country wants enforced

First I didn't label you a racist. I do think we all should be ashamed and I stand by that.

Is your argument that a president can only be a racist is there policies being pursued can identified and labeled as racist? I assume a majority would have to agree on that.
This is where we disagree as I think a person words matter as much and perhaps more then just their actions. Trump continues to attack, not a persons policies, but their identity, appearance and race. Trump uses race to fire up his base.

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I've still never watched a rally, but every time, EVERY TIME I've gone to a transcript I've found the media version to be false.
You need to watch one. The words and the how the words are recived, I don't know. How he gets people willing to stand behind him... gross.

I was only able to handle 10 minutes of his rally most of which was personal attracts on the 'other'.  (The majority of trumps tweets are negative other then the one praising himself. That's who he is.  Trump divides, its the source of much of his power. The the main tool that his uses to divide is race. To me that makes him a racist.

And I don't get why anyone would defend that.       
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: rightleft22 on July 18, 2019, 12:00:26 PM
I can't separate the policy from the man.
His type of rhetoric and racism always ends up in people getting hurt
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: TheDrake on July 18, 2019, 12:04:36 PM
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Got to protect counting them on the census to maximise our voting power.  More suffering for poor Americans, more opportunity to give them handouts and create voting dependency.

You realize that the law dictates all people be counted, not just citizens, right? When you are talking about the allocation of dollars in particular, expenses by a district or state scale according to the number of people unless you choose to deny any services including first response. I know some people would love that.

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I've still never watched a rally, but every time, EVERY TIME I've gone to a transcript I've found the media version to be false.

Meaning they actually quoted him incorrectly, or that you personally find the portion that they chose to be misleading? It isn't false if they are his words in the transcript.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: TheDeamon on July 18, 2019, 12:21:23 PM
It isn't false if they are his words in the transcript.

Doesn't mean false narratives cannot be built up around certain words in a given transcript while selectively ignoring the rest of the context in which the statement was made.

"Russia, if you're listening"

"There were good people on both sides"

To name two off-hand. But then, we've seen the partisan divide on that already as well.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: Seriati on July 18, 2019, 12:40:48 PM
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If you want me to buy the racist label, simple challenge, walk me through the racist policies he's pursuing (don't even try with border security, there's nothing racist about a position the majority of the country wants enforced

First I didn't label you a racist. I do think we all should be ashamed and I stand by that.

I didn't think you did, my comment was about buying the label of racist as applied to Trump.

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Is your argument that a president can only be a racist is there policies being pursued can identified and labeled as racist?

Not at all.  My argument is twofold, (1) I don't believe he has a personal racial animus (and apparently neither do many of the people that have known and worked with him over the years); and (2) that actions speak louder than words.  If his policies have the deliberate effect of making things better for racial minorities, which they do, if they reflect listening to said minorities and acting on the issues that they are concerned about, and that have been ignored in some cases for decades, then I'm finding it a very hard sale that he's acting out of racism.  What is he the racist that deliberately acts against his racist desires?   How is this "racism" working here?

No what I see is that charging some with being a racist, in the ordinary course, is tantamount to destroying them without any possibility of defense.  And the left is so desparate to destroy him that's what they are doing.

Hence my challenge, show me his racist actions as President, or I'm going to rely on actions (pro-minority) being louder than words.  I apply the same rule to the left, and consistently find them to say pretty things then deliberately act against the interests of the same people they claim to represent.  In effect, they are asking minorities to vote against the real improvements in their life that Trump has delivered, to go back to the false promises the left has always made and the "caring" they emote.

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This is where we disagree as I think a person words matter as much and perhaps more then just their actions. Trump continues to attack, not a persons policies, but their identity, appearance and race. Trump uses race to fire up his base.

A persons words do matter, and Trump's use of personal insults is beyond uncouth.  It also is probably the only reason he's been able to trip up the media and the establishment simultaneously and actually achieve things.

I know that's an ends justifies the means argument, which I'm typically loathe to endorse, but at least here the means are just distasteful and not the full on illegal that Democratic and establishment Republicans usually use.

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Trump divides, its the source of much of his power. The the main tool that his uses to divide is race. To me that makes him a racist.

Except that's not a tool Trump invented, it's literally the entire source of the Democrat party's strength.  They are nothing without identity politics, and demanding people be their color not themselves.  I mean, how many prominent women wrote that a women who doesn't vote for Hillary is a traitor to their gender?  That was commonly accepted and not condemned and at its very core and root that is a completely sexist position that should be unacceptable to any thinking person.

The left has gotten so convinced of its own purity of thought and belief that they've gone right out the otherside into open endorsement of racist and sexist beliefs as relevant and acceptable to the discourse, even preferable to non-racist and non-sexist beliefs.

Trump makes them see red, for the same reason they make me see red, he's playing with their tool box.

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And I don't get why anyone would defend that.

Because, just as Wayward did, he conflates Trump being repugnant, with anyone supporting policies that are best for the country which Trump happens to support as being repugnant.  It's an intellectually bankrupt argument.  It's direct corrallary to "David Duke supports X, therefore if you support X you're a racist."  David Duke is always going to pick a candidate, that doesn't say a damn thing about that candidate or anyone else that supports them.

The correllation is never made the otherway.  Felons overwhelming vote for Democrats therefore anyone who supports a Democrat is a felon in waiting.  Is that legit?

Not at all.

So to me, I'm not conceding that I have to drop support for a President who's doing what's best for the country and allow anti-American fools to take over, just because the President is personally repugnant, anymore than anyone had to vote against Bill Clinton's second term after his flaws were revealed. 

Again, convince me that Trump is pursuing racist policies and you've made a valid political argument.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: rightleft22 on July 18, 2019, 12:52:02 PM
I guess were just going to have to disagree on this.  Your argument strikes my a hypocritical however I'm not a good enough communicator to express why. The whole thing about the left identity politics being racist I don't know. It's not a argument that to my mind that excuses Trump.
But ok the left is racists so the right gets to be racist. Shame on us all. 

As I said I can't separate the man from the policy so can't argue that Trump is pursuing racist policies. Words matter.   
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: TheDrake on July 18, 2019, 12:54:19 PM
It was never the fact that Duke supported Trump that was an issue. Duke has voiced support for other politicians also.

For instance, Tulsi Gabbard (D). This is what Duke said:

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“Tulsi Gabbard in 2020. Finally a candidate for President who will really put America First?” he tweeted, linking to an article about President Trump’s recent proposal to keep troops in Iraq. Gabbard, an Iraq war veteran, is a staunch opponent of military interventionism.

Response to an earlier endorsement from Duke (yeah, he supported Gabbard in 2016 also).

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“U didn't know I'm Polynesian/Cauc? Dad couldn't use 'whites only' water fountain. No thanks. Ur white nationalism is pure evil,” she tweeted at the time.

He didn't get in front of it in the same way, as we all remember. He had to be badgered into finally saying "All right, I disavow, OK?" in a very eye-rolling kind of way. You can attribute this to having an inexperienced campaign team, or to racism, or to a self-serving nod to racists in order to get their votes so he can put all those fun policies in place.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: DonaldD on July 18, 2019, 01:03:22 PM
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It's direct corrallary to "David Duke supports X, therefore if you support X you're a racist."  David Duke is always going to pick a candidate, that doesn't say a damn thing about that candidate or anyone else that supports them.

The correllation is never made the otherway.  Felons overwhelming vote for Democrats therefore anyone who supports a Democrat is a felon in waiting.  Is that legit?
You're conflating so many things that it's hard to know where to begin.  What we have here are groups of avowed racists lauding the president for making a racist statement.  Are you suggesting that groups of felons routinely laud Democrats specifically for their felonious activities?  No?  Then the analogy fails. Or are you suggesting that the self-identifying racists are lying when they characterize Trump's statement as being racist?
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: DJQuag on July 18, 2019, 03:37:46 PM
Take out the politics, picture yourself in a 7/11 and some tells a ranting white guy that if he doesn't like he should get out of the country.  Do you really have a problem with that?

This is why this particular point is tricky.  It's "clear" to the left its racism, it's "clear" to non-liberal elite, maybe even just the non-university professor elite, that telling someone to get out of the country doesn't have to be about race.

Sorry, I've decided to reply as I go down the thread.

Literally no one is going to tell a white dude in a 7/11 to go back to where they came from. Ever. Come on.

Is there a long history of racists in this country telling blacks and Hispanics and whoever else to go back to their country? You better believe it. It's, like, a go too line. It is said every single day in the US in a completely racist fashion against American citizens. Do you actually deny this?

I don't care if you're claiming Trump was too frigging stupid to understand what he was saying. What he said was racist based upon how his followers heard it and how minorities heard it. It was a racist statement. As was that chant.

So choose a side. The man is racist or he's too stupid to understand or have read basic attacks against minorities in the last century or so.

Including, like the Mooch said, Italians, Germans, and Irish, who were all told to go back to their country.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: DonaldD on July 18, 2019, 03:56:47 PM
That never happens, DJQuag... oh, wait:
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: TheDeamon on July 18, 2019, 04:00:38 PM
Literally no one is going to tell a white dude in a 7/11 to go back to where they came from. Ever. Come on.

Well, unless they say they're from California and wish things were more like Cali where they are. They'll be asked to go back.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: DJQuag on July 18, 2019, 04:39:00 PM
That never happens, DJQuag... oh, wait:
  • https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/11/us/burger-king-mexico-florida-spanish-trnd/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/11/us/burger-king-mexico-florida-spanish-trnd/index.html)
  • https://www.wtsp.com/article/news/nation-world/customer-tells-puerto-rican-woman-to-go-back-to-her-own-country-after-she-spoke-spanish/67-86a18fd2-2e76-45ac-a5b0-07b4c2ff41ce (https://www.wtsp.com/article/news/nation-world/customer-tells-puerto-rican-woman-to-go-back-to-her-own-country-after-she-spoke-spanish/67-86a18fd2-2e76-45ac-a5b0-07b4c2ff41ce)
  • https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2018/10/23/go-back-your-country-woman-yells-obscenities-family-speaking-spanish-virginia-restaurant/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.d625999cb36a (https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2018/10/23/go-back-your-country-woman-yells-obscenities-family-speaking-spanish-virginia-restaurant/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.d625999cb36a)

My friend, I too have read things too fast and or/made snap analyses of written pieces.

I would ask you go back and read what I wrote.  Your quotes back up a very large part of what I wrote.

Unless you mean me saying a white person wouldn't be asked to go back where they came from in the 2010's is supported by your links of racist people saying that to Hispanics speaking Spanish?
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: DonaldD on July 18, 2019, 04:41:23 PM
That was irony...  ;)
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: DJQuag on July 18, 2019, 05:21:28 PM
That was irony...  ;)

And on this day I got thoroughly whooshed.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: Wayward Son on July 18, 2019, 06:41:10 PM
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How did he ever get elected? Oh yeah; he ran against Mrs Telltale Smirk.

If that were true, Pete, how is it that the next Democratic presidential candidate is going to be even worse than Hillary, in spite of the fact that no one knows who that person is going to be yet? ;)

No, people actually love Trump and what he believes/stands for, if only for hating Democrats in general. :(

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If you don't share the ideals, which I don't think any of the "squad" really do, you are not really American.

You mean ideals like the fact we are all Americans, not just those who are white?  That we are a nation of immigrants, all with as much right to be here as the next guy?

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lhan Omar, is a flat out anti-semite who stands for equating America to terrorism.  Ayanna Pressley is a straight up racist and her quote about not needing any more brown faces that don't want to be brown voices proves it, to her you are only valuable for your color and only if you agree with her.  Tlaib's got a view point that comes from her Palenstinian roots that includes lies about the history of Israel.  And AOC, what is part of American exceptionalism that she doesn't hate?

If you gave them as much of the benefit of the doubt as you give Trump and the Republicans, you’d know that’s all BS.

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Hang OR deport?   Are you listening to yourself?  Deporting is in the law. PERIOD.  Wanting people deported is a completely legitimate position.

I said “hang or deport minorities,” Seriati.  Not illegal immigrants. Why do you think you missed that?  Why do you mistake minorities for illegal immigrants?  Is it something about the rhetoric coming from the top?  Something about demonizing all foreigners, and now their children?  Because, after all, no one from some foreign country can have our values and culture.  And that’s what’s important, isn’t it?
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Face it, Trump played you and the rest of the woke again.

No, Trump has finally made clear what his real face is.  Now it’s just a matter of making you wake up to it.
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True he has, bringing more jobs and more real wage increases to them, ensuring that the tax code was revised to provide a tax benefit to every lower class tax payer notwithstanding the lies.  Reforming an unfair prison system put in place by the Democratic President Bill Clinton?  Yep, did that too.  Actually focusing attention on a border situation that is insane that harms the ethnic hispanic immigrants who come (they are a minority here, but not by much, but a majority where they come from)?

Trump’s policies have done little to nothing to help the economy, except perhaps to supercharge it with that stupid corporate tax cut, which will bite us in the behind come the next recession. The benefits to the “lower class taxpayers” are temporary and barely significant.
I’ll give you the bipartisan prison system reform.  He never campaigned on it, but at least he didn’t veto it.
Tell me again how characterizing illegal Mexican immigrants as rapists and murderers is helping Hispanics in our country.  Ask you Hispanic friends (since you obviously are not one) how many times someone has told them to go back to Mexico after Trump came into office?  How they feel about ICE raids, threatened and actual?  Ask them if they feel more secure, more welcome in this country now?  You might learn something.
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Have you condemned Pressley, she's an honest to goodness racist, she only sees color and not the real people behind it.
You realize that it doesn’t matter if I’m really David Duke trying to fake you all out.  That’s doesn’t change the fact that Trump is a racist.  He’s a racist because he told a bunch of minority American citizens, Congresswomen no less, to go back to where they came from.  It’s what racists say.
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Or do you have some evidence of a Trump policy that is racist or harming minorities that you've kept in the vest?
No, so far he hasn’t implement or tried to implement any overtly racist policy, except for separating illegal immigrant children from their parents for no good reason.  I doubt Congress would have approved an overtly racist policy.  But his words…ah, his words…
He may not do anything overtly racist, except with his words.  But covertly?  Like maybe make it harder for minorities to vote?  Like maybe say that the votes from minorities were all illegal, implying that they are all illegals?   
You think he’s going to stop here?  You think he’s not going to escalate?  Listen to his rally last night.  His followers were chanting, “Send her home!  Send her home!”  A week ago, the thought never occurred to most of them.  Now they’ve internalized it.  Now it’s their desire, their belief.  To exile American citizens because they disagree with their politics, to those brown, black and Muslim “sh*thole” countries that are so much worse than anything here.
You think, with all these people cheering him on, inflating his ego for showing them who to hate and which American values to trample, that he’s going to pull back now?  You think this narcissist won’t double down after hearing all those cheers?
Maybe he hasn’t crossed the line for you yet.  But he hasn’t finished crossing lines yet.
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Name me the "swing" liberal justice.  I'll wait.
Cute meme.  How can you have a swing liberal, when the courts are demonstrably far more conservative than they were 40 years ago?  Mathematically, in order to be in the center of this SCOTUS, you have to be on the conservative side.
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Lol, are they not sh*thole countries?  Great to hear, I guess we can deny all asylum claims from people that originated from them.  Oh wait, now they are sh*thole countries and there's a credible threat?  Consistency not a strong point today is it.

Fact is people are fleeing these countries because they are a mess, almost all of them economically, and many of them politically.  How is that at all inconsistent with what was said?  Answer its not, you're just harping on a sound bite without carrying any water on analysis.    There is no part of the Democratic position on this that holds together as logically consistent.
Of course these countries are messes.  So is ours, if you’d bother to look, rather than try to make it worse.
It’s the “vicious women and children” part that was important in that sentence.  That Republicans are so stupid and timorous that they treat women and children as invading armies.  Cowards.
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I already acknowledged that what Trump said is pretty defined as racist by the Woke, and pointed out to you that to the rest of the country it looks pretty reasonable on its face.
That’s because the “rest of the country” is stupid.  Telling a minority to “go back to your country” has been acknowledged as a racist remark for years.  It’s specifically mentioned as an example of racist behavior in government instructions to managers.  It only “looks” reasonable if it doesn’t apply to you.  Telling a white person from West Virginia to “go back to your country” is laughable; they’re already in “their” country.  Telling a black person to “go back to your country” is telling them they should go back to Africa, that they aren’t really part of this country.  The correct response to this remark that looks pretty reasonable on its face is “Go f**k yourself, I’m just as American as you, if not more so!”
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Don't believe me, do you recall how stunned everyone living in a left bubble was on election night in 2016?
Don’t believe you.  I read FiveThirtyEight just before election night.  They estimated Trump had about a 25% chance of winning.  I’ve played enough D&D to know how good those odds were. :(
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Once again you seem to be calling for the otherside to vote against their own interests out of disgust.  And there's a reason you do that, to my knowledge only the Republicans ever vote against their own interests as a matter of principal (Exhibit A, Roy Moore - not elected, Exhibit B, Bob Menendez - re-elected).
No, I don’t want the other side to vote against their own interests.  I want them to stop acting so morally superior and admit that they have no morals other than their own selfish interests.
Let me remind you that Moore only barely lost that election, 50% to 48%.  600,000 Alabama Republicans thought their own interests trumped the charges against him.  We’ll see if he has better luck this next time.
And I’ll see your Menendez with Rep. Duncan Hunter, Jr., who won handily against his opponent (after smearing him) despite being up on charges and blaming it all on his wife. :)
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All your angst on this complete crap, there's no chance that the Democrats would not have done the same.
What a load of crap.  No matter what Republicans do, you can excuse it because the Democrat would have done it, too?  I suppose you use that excuse to defend Rep. Dennis Hastert and justify what he did with his student when he was a coach: “There’s no chance that the Democrats would not have done the same.” :p
And, BTW, as I recall, the last time a similar situation occurred, the Democrats did let the nomination go through.
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Trump telling a group of anti-semitic, anti-American, communists that happen to be Congresswomen to go back where they came from?  I don't think he gives two shakes about their ethnicity.
Pff.  Have you ever heard someone use that against a white, except in retaliation?  It doesn’t make sense.  It only makes sense if you assume they are “from” somewhere else.  And what criteria do you think he used to assume that other than race?
The Congresswomen should have responded as any white guy would have: “I am where I came from, you dumb ***.” :)

Oh, well, it’s been fun, but I’ve wasted enough time on this. Later.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: TheDeamon on July 18, 2019, 07:25:09 PM
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Hang OR deport?   Are you listening to yourself?  Deporting is in the law. PERIOD.  Wanting people deported is a completely legitimate position.

I said “hang or deport minorities,” Seriati.  Not illegal immigrants. Why do you think you missed that?  Why do you mistake minorities for illegal immigrants?  Is it something about the rhetoric coming from the top?  Something about demonizing all foreigners, and now their children?  Because, after all, no one from some foreign country can have our values and culture.  And that’s what’s important, isn’t it?

I'll confess I read things much the same way Seriati did on the first pass.

You need to remember that there now is a built in "translation" that happens often times when Conservatives hear liberals start talking about minorities and deportation where it automatically gets changed to "illegal immigrant" because left-wing activists have deliberately conflated the two things for over a decade now.

You're not a left-wing activist, so that's clearly a misfire on that thought process. But it didn't come from a place where the underlying assumption was that all minorities are illegal immigrants. It came from a place of activists trying to scare legal minorities into believing ICE might come and deport them too. Which is certainly something you were playing on with that statement, deliberately or not.

Haven't gone through the rest of the post yet, but felt this one needed special attention.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: TheDrake on July 18, 2019, 07:52:40 PM
Ice raids. You do realize that we have deported people with a legal right to be in the country, and it took a judge to order them returned, right?
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: Seriati on July 18, 2019, 09:27:15 PM
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How did he ever get elected? Oh yeah; he ran against Mrs Telltale Smirk.

If that were true, Pete, how is it that the next Democratic presidential candidate is going to be even worse than Hillary, in spite of the fact that no one knows who that person is going to be yet? ;)

For the same reason the Dems nominated Kerry when they thought there was no way they could lose to Bush for a second term.  The strategists honestly believe that they'd be "wasting" an opportunity to move the country starkly to the left when they have a gift of an incumbent President who can't win.

Honestly, I'm not sure he can win.  His base is rock solid, I mean beyond what you've seen before, but he offends so many people that there will be a lot of passion.

But if the left puts up a socialist, then they are going to have a whole lot of older voters (who vote in higher numbers) stay home.

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No, people actually love Trump and what he believes/stands for, if only for hating Democrats in general. :(

People love what Trump has done.  We don't agree about what he "stands for."

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If you don't share the ideals, which I don't think any of the "squad" really do, you are not really American.

You mean ideals like the fact we are all Americans, not just those who are white?  That we are a nation of immigrants, all with as much right to be here as the next guy?

No, I mean the American dream, the belief in American exceptionalism. A belief in capitalism and the ability to get ahead with hard work.  I mean freedom of speech that means even bad people can say what they want because we believe that the best defense is to expose ideas not suppress them.  A belief that someone is innocent until proven guilty - in a legitimate process, not just a "I really want them to be guilty so they are."  A belief that all people are equal, not that some are extra special.

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If you gave them as much of the benefit of the doubt as you give Trump and the Republicans, you’d know that’s all BS.

In fairness, I'm happy to give them the benefit of the doubt, just not on a thread called "Our Racist President."  You picked the terms for the thread, i.e. stark and uncompromising, not me.

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Hang OR deport?   Are you listening to yourself?  Deporting is in the law. PERIOD.  Wanting people deported is a completely legitimate position.

I said “hang or deport minorities,” Seriati.  Not illegal immigrants. Why do you think you missed that?  Why do you mistake minorities for illegal immigrants?  Is it something about the rhetoric coming from the top?  Something about demonizing all foreigners, and now their children?  Because, after all, no one from some foreign country can have our values and culture.  And that’s what’s important, isn’t it?

Wow.  I guess I "missed" that you think there are people that want to "hang or deport" minorities.  It's certainly not Trump, or me or the Republicans, so who the ***** are you talking about?

I read comment in the only sensible way I could interpret it.  No one can deport a US citizen, period end of story.  No one is supporting any crazy ***** that advocates lynching minorities. 

In fact, I'm more offended now that you clarified.

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Face it, Trump played you and the rest of the woke again.

No, Trump has finally made clear what his real face is.  Now it’s just a matter of making you wake up to it.

Triggered.

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Trump’s policies have done little to nothing to help the economy, except perhaps to supercharge it with that stupid corporate tax cut, which will bite us in the behind come the next recession. The benefits to the “lower class taxpayers” are temporary and barely significant.
I’ll give you the bipartisan prison system reform.  He never campaigned on it, but at least he didn’t veto it.

Soft lies are the worst.  Bipartisan prison reform only happened because the Whitehouse made a real effort to push it.  Do some research, and quit just accepting that good only comes from one side.

And I love how you "dismiss" real wage growth (which Obama couldn't deliver), historic levels of unemployment, whole hearted support for development in opportunity zones, and real money in the pockets from tax cuts.  It's the most hypocritical thing yet, if a Democratic President did even one of those, you'd want xe up on Mt. Rushmore.

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Tell me again how characterizing illegal Mexican immigrants as rapists and murderers is helping Hispanics in our country.

Tell me again how lying about an actual quote is helping people in our country?  What's the matter, what he really said too hard to use?

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Ask you Hispanic friends (since you obviously are not one) how many times someone has told them to go back to Mexico after Trump came into office?  How they feel about ICE raids, threatened and actual?  Ask them if they feel more secure, more welcome in this country now?  You might learn something.

I'll ask my Hispanic relatives (who've not mentioned a darn thing), is that good enough?

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Have you condemned Pressley, she's an honest to goodness racist, she only sees color and not the real people behind it.
You realize that it doesn’t matter if I’m really David Duke trying to fake you all out.  That’s doesn’t change the fact that Trump is a racist.

So do as I say, not as I do.  Give up legitimate policies because I declare a politician a racist, but my policies are inherently good notwithstanding racist support.

No thanks Wayward.  Must be nice to live the unexamined life.

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He’s a racist because he told a bunch of minority American citizens, Congresswomen no less, to go back to where they came from.  It’s what racists say.

Lol.  Yep.  You know what else racists say?  "Can you make that a Venti?"  "I'd like the wax as well please."

Granted I'm being silly there, but I've already walked through that what you hear and what middle America hears on this may not be same thing.  Don't know why I bother though, I think it may be better if you just stay in your bubble till after the election.

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Or do you have some evidence of a Trump policy that is racist or harming minorities that you've kept in the vest?
No, so far he hasn’t implement or tried to implement any overtly racist policy, except for separating illegal immigrant children from their parents for no good reason.

That's a surprising admission.  No racist policies.  I'm adding that to no collusion, no obstruction, lol.

And by "no good reason" you mean doing it because the law prohibits holding children in custody but that parents should be held in custody, pretty much exactly the same way a citizen parent that is arrested is separated from their children?   Or did I miss a law change that puts children of citizens in prison or requires their parents be released?

Again, you have staked a position that is unreasonable on its face, and only gotten there because you've twisted the view of reality so far that something that is reasonable becomes unconscionable, and completely ignored that the primary reason so many people are showing up with kids (a historical anomoly) is because your own leaders have set the conditions to give them a priority access to the illegal immigration lottery if they do.  It's so obvious that coyotes are coaching people on risking their children's lives, sometimes even renting out their children to do so.

But hey I'm the bad person after you support a system that abuses children and costs them their lives for political capital. 

Not seeing Wayward.

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I doubt Congress would have approved an overtly racist policy.  But his words…ah, his words…
He may not do anything overtly racist, except with his words.  But covertly?  Like maybe make it harder for minorities to vote?  Like maybe say that the votes from minorities were all illegal, implying that they are all illegals?

Lol.  I read that there are no studies that support the idea that minority voters are significantly suppressed by voter registration laws.  What's up "party of science"?  lol. 

Makes a great sound bite even if it is a lie.

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Name me the "swing" liberal justice.  I'll wait.
Cute meme.  How can you have a swing liberal, when the courts are demonstrably far more conservative than they were 40 years ago?  Mathematically, in order to be in the center of this SCOTUS, you have to be on the conservative side.

Lol.  In other words no.  There is no Democrat appointee that is a swing Justice.  The only reason we have 5-4 splits in the numbers we do is that Democratic appointees routinely vote to ignore the actual law and pursue their policy goals.

I said it before, and I'm not alone, I have zero interest in any conservative activist judges.  My interest is in Justices that apply the law.  Why is that a radical idea to you?  Why do you want social justice warriors to be appointed as non-elected philosopher kings?

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Of course these countries are messes.  So is ours, if you’d bother to look, rather than try to make it worse.

Our country is not a mess, our people are.  And there's 350 million reasons for that.

You don't have to believe in an aspirational concept of American exceptionalism, to recognize as a factual matter that America is exceptional.  We have an illegal immigration problem for a reason.

So yes we can always be better, in the same the New England Patriots can "always be better" or US women's Soccer can "always be better."

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It’s the “vicious women and children” part that was important in that sentence.  That Republicans are so stupid and timorous that they treat women and children as invading armies.  Cowards.

It's really not the important part of the sentence.  It's the part you want to be important because it tugs on the heart strings rather than the logic centers.   I'm not a fan of argument by passion without sense.

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I already acknowledged that what Trump said is pretty defined as racist by the Woke, and pointed out to you that to the rest of the country it looks pretty reasonable on its face.
That’s because the “rest of the country” is stupid.

Love that you said that.  So what?  You going to campaign on "deplorables" or tell them they are clinging to their religion and their guns.

You're just doubling down on what the country already knows, you hold them in contempt.  Great electoral strategy.

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Telling a minority to “go back to your country” has been acknowledged as a racist remark for years.

Telling a European immigrant to go back your country has been done for years.  Is it racist?  Not that I'm aware.  Again, feel free to grab common concepts and label them racist.  Keep going please, the country would be better with a Republican House.

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It’s specifically mentioned as an example of racist behavior in government instructions to managers.  It only “looks” reasonable if it doesn’t apply to you.

Look, let's be honest I don't even disagree in principal.  I'd never use the phrase myself, but I've had training and thought through a lot of issues related to inadvertant offense.   But you're delusional if you think this is playing to the voters in the middle of the country.

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Don't believe me, do you recall how stunned everyone living in a left bubble was on election night in 2016?
Don’t believe you.  I read FiveThirtyEight just before election night.  They estimated Trump had about a 25% chance of winning.  I’ve played enough D&D to know how good those odds were. :(

Except they were wrong.  He didn't have 25% of winning it just appeared that way based on their metrics.  By the night before the election, his odds of winning were probably 95% or he wouldn't actually have won.  Think it through and let that reality play out in your nightmares.

Whatever they were considering, was literally that far off.

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No, I don’t want the other side to vote against their own interests.  I want them to stop acting so morally superior and admit that they have no morals other than their own selfish interests.

In today's world the one's on the highest horses are those on the left.  No one but the religious fanatics cares about the "moral majority" who were never a majority.  So what I hear when you say that is that you don't want to be challenged.

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Let me remind you that Moore only barely lost that election, 50% to 48%.  600,000 Alabama Republicans thought their own interests trumped the charges against him.  We’ll see if he has better luck this next time.

Yeah in a state where Republicans out number Democrats by more than 50% to around 30%.

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And I’ll see your Menendez with Rep. Duncan Hunter, Jr., who won handily against his opponent (after smearing him) despite being up on charges and blaming it all on his wife. :)

Keith Ellison.

In any event, not a parallel than the 2 I offered, and not a response to why it was okay for the Democrats to put Menedez back in when the Republicans did the right thing and kept Moore out.

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All your angst on this complete crap, there's no chance that the Democrats would not have done the same.
What a load of crap.  No matter what Republicans do, you can excuse it because the Democrat would have done it, too?

Did I excuse it?  Nope just called you out on your fake agnst.  You have no principals here, or you'd have called out the fact that there is no chance now, nor was there then that the Democrats wouldn't have done the same thing.  It's not even worth pretending.  We both know they would have, and that you'd have blindly defending it with the same level of righteousness you are asserting now.

By the way, you can literally go back and look at the real time threads on this board where I said that Merrick deserved a vote.

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I suppose you use that excuse to defend Rep. Dennis Hastert and justify what he did with his student when he was a coach: “There’s no chance that the Democrats would not have done the same.” :p

No idea what you're talking about.  And not interested enough to look it up.

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And, BTW, as I recall, the last time a similar situation occurred, the Democrats did let the nomination go through.

The last time.  You sure about that.  Dems have slow walked every single nomination of this Administration no matter how petty or how critical.  Or did you mean something from GWB or even before?

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Trump telling a group of anti-semitic, anti-American, communists that happen to be Congresswomen to go back where they came from?  I don't think he gives two shakes about their ethnicity.
Pff.  Have you ever heard someone use that against a white, except in retaliation?

Yes, and far more than against non-whites.  Maybe you don't hang out with any Europeans, but they can be truly obnoxious about their beliefs about what America does that is inferior to back home.

I don't actually hang with racists though so maybe this is more common than I think.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: DonaldD on July 19, 2019, 06:50:01 AM
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I don't actually hang with racists though so maybe this is more common than I think.
There's an argument to be made that, if this thread is anything to go by, you might not realize that you were hanging with racists.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: TheDrake on July 19, 2019, 07:18:21 AM
Tl;dr
But which part of free speech is the Huac that you seem to want to bring back?
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: Crunch on July 19, 2019, 07:23:41 AM
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I don't actually hang with racists though so maybe this is more common than I think.
There's an argument to be made that, if this thread is anything to go by, you might not realize that you were hanging with racists.

Sure, I mean, are they white?  Then they’re racist. Amiright?
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: DonaldD on July 19, 2019, 09:02:11 AM
Why do you assume Seriati and his acquaintances are white, Crunch?

I know it is easier to ignore the arguments people make and build straw men to make yourself feel better about not being able to defend your own positions...
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: TheDeamon on July 19, 2019, 12:40:42 PM
Tl;dr
But which part of free speech is the Huac that you seem to want to bring back?

Who needs the HUAC when we you have the Racism and Bigotry Police ready to curbstomp anyone who even appears to step a toe out of line?

Even "better" because the above mentioned people are on high alert for "secret racists" and "secret bigots" as well.

Edit: on further thought, the modern analog to the HUAC are the activist arms of the Democratic Party at this point. Complete with black lists, prosecutions seeeking to destroy people simply for being "associated with the wrong people" and so on.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: TheDrake on July 19, 2019, 12:46:34 PM
Tl;dr
But which part of free speech is the Huac that you seem to want to bring back?

Who needs the HUAC when we you have the Racism and Bigotry Police ready to curbstomp anyone who even appears to step a toe out of line?

Even "better" because the above mentioned people are on high alert for "secret racists" and "secret bigots" as well.

So disapproval is curb stomping now? The difference, if I must spell it out, is subpoena versus public pressure to not be a giant racist ass.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: TheDeamon on July 19, 2019, 12:50:44 PM
Tl;dr
But which part of free speech is the Huac that you seem to want to bring back?

Who needs the HUAC when we you have the Racism and Bigotry Police ready to curbstomp anyone who even appears to step a toe out of line?

Even "better" because the above mentioned people are on high alert for "secret racists" and "secret bigots" as well.

So disapproval is curb stomping now? The difference, if I must spell it out, is subpoena versus public pressure to not be a giant racist ass.

Be careful, there are communistsracists and bigots among us, and you may not even realize it. We must not wait to remove threat of communisimracism from our great nation. We need to take bold and decisive action to address this matter urgently, and treat all allegations as the serious matter that they are.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: Seriati on July 19, 2019, 01:13:07 PM
So disapproval is curb stomping now? The difference, if I must spell it out, is subpoena versus public pressure to not be a giant racist ass.

So to be clear, you endorse the Hollywood blacklists?
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: Seriati on July 19, 2019, 02:04:43 PM
This would have been better in the thread about whether there are any material amount of white nationalist and the media's propping them up, but it works here too.

https://www.creators.com/read/david-harsanyi/07/19/why-medias-normalizing-of-white-nationalists-matters (https://www.creators.com/read/david-harsanyi/07/19/why-medias-normalizing-of-white-nationalists-matters)
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: D.W. on July 19, 2019, 02:07:58 PM
We get it.  Everyone is to blame BUT the guy in the oval office.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: TheDrake on July 19, 2019, 02:14:02 PM
So disapproval is curb stomping now? The difference, if I must spell it out, is subpoena versus public pressure to not be a giant racist ass.

So to be clear, you endorse the Hollywood blacklists?

Do I support blacklists for the KKK and Antifa? You better believe I do. Do I support Roseanne losing her job for comparing a human being to an Ape? Yup, check that box.

I'm not part of the group that wants to kick "socialists" or "communists" out of the country.

None of which is equivalent to putting someone's jaw on a sidewalk and coming down with full body weight, so can the curb stomping rhetoric. It's beneath you, TD.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: TheDeamon on July 19, 2019, 02:48:43 PM
I'm not part of the group that wants to kick "socialists" or "communists" out of the country.

Where did Trump try to kick them out of the country? He asked them go back to their homeland and see about applying their great ideas there. If they're such great ideas for here, they should work elsewhere too. And considering how drastic many of the suggested fixes are, they don't come without significant risk to the United States as a whole. Isn't it reasonable to ask for a proven demonstration of how things will work before breaking something which is working "reasonable well" even if it isn't perfect?

Because that's where a lot of us are drawing lines on this stuff. They want to implement changes and "reforms" into the system that we're pretty certain will do nothing to actually fix most of the problems we have, and are very likely to make things worse, not better. We're open to being wrong, but we'd rather not be the guinea pigs either.

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None of which is equivalent to putting someone's jaw on a sidewalk and coming down with full body weight, so can the curb stomping rhetoric. It's beneath you, TD.

I'll take note to remember that you will interpret my future figures of speech quite literally. You know what I meant, but decided to be pedantic about it. As someone who is rather pedantic myself, I can fully respect that.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: TheDrake on July 19, 2019, 02:54:12 PM
"I don't like your ideas. Leave our country." Seems pretty cut and dried to me, and we've covered most of this ground before. Being in favor of socialized medicine doesn't mean you are evil or worthy of banishment, and by the way it has worked pretty *censored* well for most of the industrialized world including our next door neighbor, Canada. You're not an enemy of America because you think every single citizen should have access to a doctor.

And I'm fully prepared to have my rhetoric thrown back in my face, I just really take some offense to violent rhetoric. I don't think that's being pedantic, to not want disapproval equated with bodily harm.

Oh, and while I didn't say so before, the earlier part of the discussion talking about people wanting to "hang" minorities was also way out of line.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: TheDrake on July 19, 2019, 04:01:13 PM
Might as well tack this into this thread, though it doesn't fuel the racist discussion, it does show callous indifference to one of the refugees that he claims are destroying Germany.

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Murad, who now lives in Germany, told him she never wanted to be a refu­gee but that ISIS murdered her mother and six brothers.

“Where are they now?” Trump asked.

“They killed them,” she repeated. “They are in the mass grave in Sinjar, and I’m still fighting just to live in safety.”

I actually watched the video to be absolutely certain that the media didn't skip a quote, nope, that was literally a back to back sequence without interruption.

Trump during the whole thing looks like a kid chafing for the final bell to let him out of school. This woman absolutely was one of the people banned from seeking refuge in the US by Trump's order.

1:30 is the relevant spot (https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2019/07/19/nadia-murad-speaks-with-president-trump-isis-keilar-crn-sot-vpx.cnn)
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: Crunch on July 19, 2019, 05:36:28 PM
Why do you assume Seriati and his acquaintances are white, Crunch?

I know it is easier to ignore the arguments people make and build straw men to make yourself feel better about not being able to defend your own positions...

I don’t know him and don’t know why you’re making assumptions that I’m talking about him. Talk about building a strawman , Jesus. SMH
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: TheDeamon on July 19, 2019, 06:17:37 PM
Why do you assume Seriati and his acquaintances are white, Crunch?

I know it is easier to ignore the arguments people make and build straw men to make yourself feel better about not being able to defend your own positions...

I don’t know him and don’t know why you’re making assumptions that I’m talking about him. Talk about building a strawman , Jesus. SMH

So many people being very literal and pedantic in this thread.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: Pete at Home on July 19, 2019, 06:43:26 PM
Out of curiosity, how many people here believe that Donald Trump can onpy be racist if he was white, and that if he took off his mask and showed he was black that he would be incapable of racism?
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: TheDrake on July 19, 2019, 08:32:12 PM
Black people can and have been racist, especially against Asians and Hispanics. I guess they can be racist against white too, but lack the power to actually cause harm.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: Pete at Home on July 19, 2019, 11:18:14 PM
Black people can and have been racist, especially against Asians and Hispanics. I guess they can be racist against white too, but lack the power to actually cause harm.

Perhaps in your income level and protected neighborhoods black racially “woke” Americans lack the power to hurt white people but down here in the inner cities and in prison it’s a rather different matter, tovarich
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: Pete at Home on July 19, 2019, 11:23:54 PM
"I don't like your ideas. Leave our country." Seems pretty cut and dried to me, and we've covered most of this ground before. Being in favor of socialized medicine doesn't mean you are evil or worthy of banishment, and by the way it has worked pretty *censored* well for most of the industrialized world including our next door neighbor, Canada. You're not an enemy of America because you think every single citizen should have access to a doctor.

And I'm fully prepared to have my rhetoric thrown back in my face, I just really take some offense to violent rhetoric. I don't think that's being pedantic, to not want disapproval equated with bodily harm.

Oh, and while I didn't say so before, the earlier part of the discussion talking about people wanting to "hang" minorities was also way out of line.

The later sounds racist. The former is clearly not racist, although arguably more repugnant than actual racism. ( can Chinese authorities be racist against white people? When Chinese national authorities shut down a digging when the oldest human body in China turned out a white redhead, was that racism or something worse, or both?
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: TheDrake on July 19, 2019, 11:32:38 PM
Black people can and have been racist, especially against Asians and Hispanics. I guess they can be racist against white too, but lack the power to actually cause harm.

Perhaps in your income level and protected neighborhoods black racially “woke” Americans lack the power to hurt white people but down here in the inner cities and in prison it’s a rather different matter, tovarich

I'll grant you that one. I had a friend who thought about moving to Laurence MA, predominantly Hispanics, and his friends of color told him not to because he would get robbed and beaten. But most white people don't have to worry about that because they have suburbia on lock.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: TheDeamon on July 19, 2019, 11:58:29 PM
Black people can and have been racist, especially against Asians and Hispanics. I guess they can be racist against white too, but lack the power to actually cause harm.

Perhaps in your income level and protected neighborhoods black racially “woke” Americans lack the power to hurt white people but down here in the inner cities and in prison it’s a rather different matter, tovarich

I'll grant you that one. I had a friend who thought about moving to Laurence MA, predominantly Hispanics, and his friends of color told him not to because he would get robbed and beaten. But most white people don't have to worry about that because they have suburbia on lock.

Uh, I think you missed part of the message that was being said. It wasn't so much that "the area is rough" in general and is unsafe for anyone.

It was that the area was unsafe for white people who decided to live there. They'd make themselves targets living there because they would be the only white family in the area.

In those situations, more often than not, the only ones who might "get a pass" is someone performing religious services of some type. As most groups will be somewhat mindful of that, even if they don't go for it themselves. But anybody else? Watch out.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: TheDrake on July 20, 2019, 02:20:35 AM
Black people can and have been racist, especially against Asians and Hispanics. I guess they can be racist against white too, but lack the power to actually cause harm.

Perhaps in your income level and protected neighborhoods black racially “woke” Americans lack the power to hurt white people but down here in the inner cities and in prison it’s a rather different matter, tovarich

I'll grant you that one. I had a friend who thought about moving to Laurence MA, predominantly Hispanics, and his friends of color told him not to because he would get robbed and beaten. But most white people don't have to worry about that because they have suburbia on lock.

Uh, I think you missed part of the message that was being said. It wasn't so much that "the area is rough" in general and is unsafe for anyone.

It was that the area was unsafe for white people who decided to live there. They'd make themselves targets living there because they would be the only white family in the area.

In those situations, more often than not, the only ones who might "get a pass" is someone performing religious services of some type. As most groups will be somewhat mindful of that, even if they don't go for it themselves. But anybody else? Watch out.

No, I meant exactly that my friend would be targeted for being white.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: Fenring on July 20, 2019, 12:40:16 PM
And now we have someone who doesn't understand the definition of the word "judgment"... either that, or you are conflating the legal vs non-legal language, which I agree is stupid.  (again, here's a hint - you do not need to form an opinion in order to identify somebody as black or Asian.)

I'm a few days late on this one as I was out of town on holiday, so sorry to necro an older comment in this thread out of context. But I wanted to make mention of something inherent in this statement which very much reflects an identity politics premise that I believe cannot stand up to scrutiny. One huge issue in the past in genetics has been "is there race?", to which one previous liberal position was that there was no such thing as race. However geneticists (and doctors) maintained that there really was, and that aside from medical considerations when determining a patient's risk factors, there are definitely racial genetic markers defining geographical groups that are divergent. But the current prevailing liberal position on racial politics is obviously that there is very much a such thing as race, and moreover that it is a crucial defining characteristic of pretty much everyone. However this position just as much as the previous one ignores the science, which shows that while there are traits common to those from geographical areas, there is also a huge divergence within each group, and that there is often more divergence within a group than between groups. Further, the genetic things to check for are legion, and reducing the matter to a visual inspection of skin color is completely unscientific. Only slightly better is asking a person what country they're from, which is at least factual but potentially irrelevant in terms of race (see: "I'm African" for white South Africans).

The current trend of DNA testing for origin (and the recent nonsense with Elizabeth Warren) should make clear to most people that their ancestry can be very mixed up, and how this reflects in skin tone is somewhat of a trivial point in terms of their genetics. So when you say that "you do not need to form an opinion in order to identify someone as black or Asian" so you are failing to note that you literally do need to make a judgement about what percentage of their DNA needs to be from a certain geographical population in order to 'qualify'. I doubt, for instance, you would want to call a light-skinned person with 3% DNA from Nigeria (like a great-great-great-great grandfather who was black) as "black". But then again, why not? I knew a girl back in school whose skin color was like ivory and whose father was black, and she identified as black. It did cause some surprise when she cited herself as being black when people noted her visually as a total white girl. So is your skin pigmentation the defining characteristic (a something-ist rule if ever there was one) or is it your genetic heritage, in which case skin color is only somewhat relevant? And just a side note, but you've put "black" and "Asian" in the same formula, where one stands for a skin color and the other for a geographical heritage. Or maybe you meant "Asian-looking"? But boy I don't think that term would go over very well if you went around using it.

So yeah, do *do* need to create an arbitrary opinion that defines whether a person "is" a particular race, and this is increasingly mired by what used to be called 'intermarriage' but which we now just call people being friendly. You're going to tell me that club membership based on skin tone isn't inherently problematic if one were forced to define exactly what the qualifying criteria are? Or if it's based on genetics does that mean you need to hand in your genetic report card? The matter is currently treated (by both sides, really) as if race is some fact written on the person's forehead that identifies them. It's not; it's some amalgam of their skin color, their culture, their family's origin, their medical history, and perhaps even their comfort level in certain environments.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: Pete at Home on July 20, 2019, 01:24:05 PM
When you set aside the brainwashing and disinformation, the bantus that dominate South Africa are no more related to it’s true natives than either of them from the White South Africans.  In their cold blooded cannibalism and oppression of the true south African natives, the people’s related to the pygmies and Bushmen, the Bantus are genocidal beyond compare.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: TheDeamon on July 20, 2019, 03:01:08 PM
When you set aside the brainwashing and disinformation, the bantus that dominate South Africa are no more related to it’s true natives than either of them from the White South Africans.  In their cold blooded cannibalism and oppression of the true south African natives, the people’s related to the pygmies and Bushmen, the Bantus are genocidal beyond compare.

Nice to hear that from somewhere other than the mouth of a (White) South African. It was interesting to hear him go on about how the Black population down there continues to demand "reparations" for "theft of their lands" which he was claiming wasn't even theirs to start with.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: Fenring on July 22, 2019, 11:49:08 AM
FWIW, having now read through the thread, I think a lot of hay is being made about Trump's statement resembling the prototypical "why don't you go back where you came from", and in its classic form I do agree with the liberal posters here that this is clearly a racist (or at best a something-ist) formulation. What Trump said shares some characteristics with this and on those ground borders on being an 'homage' to that racist formulation. The actual statement in context, however, seems to be saying that people who want to use distorted ideas of how to help a country should go try them elsewhere prior to ruining America with them. Of course that line could only work on someone whose ancestral nation is in bad shape, since for instance telling Bernie to go and fix Denmark prior to trying his 'socialist' ideas in America would be nonsensical. So while crude, Trump's basic message seems to be "your ideas are a joke, since other countries that use them have gone to hell." I mean, that's not a nice thing to say anyhow, and it does take on a very standard Republican trope, which is that socialism is evil because something something Russia and Venezuela. I think it's a silly argument, and my first take on Trump's comment here is that he's using a mindless soundbyte-type dismissal of people in a crude away - basically his entire rhetorical strategy going back to when he was essentially insulting Jeb Bush's face.

I am a little surprised that some people here are trying to defend the "go back to the country you came from" line as not being racist in regards to American citizens, notwithstanding that this isn't really what Trump said in this case. If he *had* said that it would look a lot worse to me and would be very hard to defend. As it stands it's only hard to defend.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: scifibum on July 22, 2019, 12:24:37 PM
You know, there isn't always some sort of correctness in middle ground. Trump did say "go back where you came from", with the racist assumption that they came from somewhere else.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: Fenring on July 22, 2019, 12:47:18 PM
You know, there isn't always some sort of correctness in middle ground. Trump did say "go back where you came from", with the racist assumption that they came from somewhere else.

You should read my post again, and scan for pro/anti content. You'll find that most of my comments are critical of the conservative side of this argument. You might consider the possibility that it's increasingly difficult for people to register a non-partisan argument as being anything other than some kind of position on a partisan tug of war. To my mind my last post wasn't a "middle ground" or any attempt at such, but was my assessment of the facts as they stand so far. I view it as fairly clear that Trump *did not* categorically tell them to "go back where you came from", which is the form of the argument that's being argued about. His tweets are actually surprisingly hard to parse in terms of what he's actually getting it. If you look at them carefully he basically seems to be saying "if you don't like it, then leave!" but actually even that's not quite accurate. Maybe there is no coherent idea in there at all. If I'm being charitable it looks like he's arguing that there is no magic button for national success and that grand plans to change things won't magically make everything better, because if that was possible then other nations would do it too, which they clearly don't. Plus, you know, GO AMERICA.

There's no point trying to assign a partisan score (left/right/middle) to a statement absent its factual content, unless you're commenting on the meta-content of it (e.g. "yes you said that but it really meant XYZ because you're partisan"). As you can see from the above one does not progress forward in a 'debate' where the content primarily consists of "of course I'm right, how can you not see that!!"
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: rightleft22 on July 22, 2019, 01:34:49 PM
Quote
I view it as fairly clear that Trump *did not* categorically tell them to "go back where you came from", which is the form of the argument that's being argued about. His tweets are actually surprisingly hard to parse in terms of what he's actually getting it. If you look at them carefully he basically seems to be saying "if you don't like it, then leave!" but actually even that's not quite accurate. Maybe there is no coherent idea in there at all. If I'm being charitable it looks like he's arguing that there is no magic button for national success and that grand plans to change things won't magically make everything better, because if that was possible then other nations would do it too, which they clearly don't. Plus, you know, GO AMERICA

That's feels like a lot of mental gymnastics to go through to explain/excuse/be charitable about a tweet.
Trump has said that you just tells it like it is and yet we still can't figure out what hes saying.

My view is that Trump is a hypocrite when he went after Obama and expressed his unhappiness with the state of America was he being unpatriotic? Did he feel he should Leave because he didn't like it?  No.
Does Trump specifically call on others in congress by name that are also pushing for change and saying negative things about him to Leave. No.

When do we hold the man accountable for what he says as he says it? That's not partisan I wan't to know when can we ask for better?

Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: Fenring on July 22, 2019, 01:47:08 PM
When do we hold the man accountable for what he says as he says it? That's not partisan I wan't to know when can we ask for better?

You can hold him as accountable as you like. I ended my initial post on this subject with saying his comments are "hard to defend". I was being a bit tongue-in-cheek but I did mean it. So he's being an a-hole, duh. I actually do think these tweets are hard to parse, most likely because their chief aim is to make his opponents look stupid rather than make a reasoned argument about their policies. I have to be honest, while Trump's personal style wasn't necessarily an inevitability in America something just as bad was, and the blame can be spread around. Part of it is the clickbait media system desperately trying to stay relevant. But also part of it is the electoral system in general, where (as Tocqueville said in 1830 or whatever) if you are electing people as often as every four years you're going to get a system where they are perpetually campaigning and where long-term goals cannot possibly be considered, at least not without connecting those goals with election hopes. It should come as no suprise that outright campaigning happens way before an election, and Trump slamming Dem candidates is just the beginning of the s***storm. Maybe this individual comment touched some buttons on the race-meter, but overall it was just a personal attack meant to belittle them. That itself is 'hard to defend'. But it's not a surprise, and if it works within the current system then the system is at fault, not the user.

Trump may have clumsily referenced a racist meme, but it looks like his main intent is to make fun of some opponents' political beliefs.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: rightleft22 on July 22, 2019, 02:03:21 PM
Quote
but it looks like his main intent is to make fun of some opponents' political beliefs.
I'd be ok with him making fun of a opponents political beliefs if he kept it focused on the beliefs and then clearly indicated his policy. But he doesn't, instead he goes personal.
The way he keeps 'punching' people and then when they push back he gets to say - see I told you they were horrible people and his followers node, yep the prez is right again...


Maybe your right and a leader such as this was inevitable... doesn't make me feel any better. I don't like how this bodes for the future
 
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: D.W. on July 22, 2019, 02:10:39 PM
Quote
Trump may have clumsily referenced a racist meme, but it looks like his main intent is to make fun of some opponents' political beliefs.
This is the biggest question mark when it comes to Trump and he's made it work for him in ways I never would have imagined possible. 

Is he a buffoon and so ridiculously inept a public speaker that he really can be that clumsy?  Or is he a skilled tactician employing methods we just aren't use to seeing at this tier of government?  I still to this day flip back and forth on my assessment. 

I'm confident either A: he IS racist and meant to do this, it was no accident.  or B:  he went up to where he believed the line was, knowing full well it would be perceived as racist, but he felt was still defensible language. 

That was AS important (for his base and to work up his opposition) as the actual intent of painting the Democratic party as being represented by this group.  To force the party to circle the wagons and thereby reinforce the idea that these 4 represent them all.  He saw a potential weakness and exploited it well.  That tactic required the hint of racism.  Shockingly he seems to have correctly determined where that line was drawn.  Myself and (apparently) most on the left are shocked the line is where it seems to be for much of the country, we (incorrectly) assumed he stepped decisively beyond it.  (I mean, he did for ME and many others, but the assumption that ALL would see it so, is apparently just not true.  Revolting as that reality may be to stomach.)

Trump isn't clumsy.  He's not some zany bull in the china shop.  He's the goon sent to deliver a message to the owner of the shop. 
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: Fenring on July 22, 2019, 02:34:10 PM
Trump isn't clumsy.  He's not some zany bull in the china shop.  He's the goon sent to deliver a message to the owner of the shop.

Or could it be that he's a bull in a china shop who knows he's a bull and also knows that many people think calling plates "china" is pretentious? I mean, it's almost a recipe for destroying your own brain to try to pick apart the strategic nuances to every single thing he says and wonder about whether they're accidents, or misstatements, or carefully calculated. My best guess is that he knows he can throw his weight around and that this will ruffle feathers but so long as he does it in an entertaining fashion (i.e. in 'his style') and with a sort of positive aplomb it will more or less always pass. He probably knows after so many years in entertainment that you can push the envelope quite hard and so long as your brand is consistent all that matters is that you have a fan base. He may well not be able to control the fine nuances of what he says, but so long as he's aware of that and knows that his niche is busting of china shops, also knowing that his base sort of resents the idea of china shops in the first place, his blundering achieves his goal. So the strategy is probably calculated, even though his tactics (i.e. individual tweets) probably consist of little more than throwing s*** against a wall knowing that what doesn't stick will soon be forgotten.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: cherrypoptart on July 22, 2019, 03:41:04 PM
You know what would be interesting would be to look at what the squad wants to do with, or to, America and see if that might give us a better sense of where Trump is coming from. We already know that one of them is an out and out racist who has no use or respect for black people who don't vote the way she wants them to and we also know that AOC's New Green Deal would be a disaster that would make Venezuela look like an economic paradise in comparison. One of the others petitioned a judge to be lenient to a terrorist in sentencing. Another says nobody is illegal. I think it's a fair position for conservatives to say that none of that is what we want here in America. If you want to try it somewhere else first and show us that it works then have at thee.

In other words putting this in context doesn't just require parsing Trump's exact words. It also requires looking at the positions of the people he's talking about. It's like telling a communist from Russia, China, Cuba, or Vietnam that is peddling their failed ideology here to go back to their country and succeed with their big ideas first and then once you have a track record of success come back here, take us outside, and show us what it's like. That's not racist. It's just a coincidence that none of them happened to be white. If Pelosi was in there peddling communism, which she isn't and she doesn't, I have no doubt Trump would have been happy to include her too. It's not Trump's fault they just happened to not be white people. Changing what he would have said based on the fact that none of them is white when he would have said the same thing if one of them was would be racist.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: TheDrake on July 22, 2019, 03:42:15 PM
Don't you mean a bull in a gyna shop?
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: D.W. on July 22, 2019, 04:03:11 PM
Quote
We already know that one of them is an out and out racist who has no use or respect for black people who don't vote the way she wants them to and we also know that AOC's New Green Deal would be a disaster that would make Venezuela look like an economic paradise in comparison.
Got to generalize a moment here cherry.  This quote is illustrative of a trend I've noticed.

Some people can insist in all honesty that we hear what we want (or hate) in everything Trump says and that we take things out of context or twist his words to arrive at our conclusions.  Those same people can look at what these women have said and conclude the worst possible interpretation (when not parroting actual disinformation) of what they've said. 

The admonishment of being unfair to Trump would carry a lot more weight (or at least a little) if there were any consistency what so ever. 
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: Fenring on July 22, 2019, 04:13:39 PM
Don't you mean a bull in a gyna shop?

The real question is whether you're pronouncing that guy-na or jai-na.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: Crunch on July 22, 2019, 06:38:37 PM
Quote
but it looks like his main intent is to make fun of some opponents' political beliefs.
I'd be ok with him making fun of a opponents political beliefs if he kept it focused on the beliefs and then clearly indicated his policy. But he doesn't, instead he goes personal.
The way he keeps 'punching' people and then when they push back he gets to say - see I told you they were horrible people and his followers node, yep the prez is right again...


Maybe your right and a leader such as this was inevitable... doesn't make me feel any better. I don't like how this bodes for the future

I think you’ve missed a hell of a lot of the coverage that Trump gets or you have a very tightly focused selective amnesia.
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: rightleft22 on July 23, 2019, 01:37:32 PM
I've given up trying to parse Trump
Title: Re: Our Racist President
Post by: Crunch on July 23, 2019, 03:03:19 PM
I've given up trying to parse Trump

It’s not Trump you should be parsing