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General Category => General Comments => Topic started by: Grant on August 28, 2019, 07:37:32 PM

Title: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Grant on August 28, 2019, 07:37:32 PM
8/28/2019

STATEMENT BY THE PRESIDENT

We are tracking closely tropical storm Dorian as it heads, as usual, to Puerto Rico.  FEMA and all others are ready, and will do a great job.  When they do, let them know it, and give them a big Thank You - Not like last time.  That includes the incompetent Mayor of San Juan! 
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Grant on August 28, 2019, 07:42:22 PM
8/28/2019

STATEMENT BY THE PRESIDENT

Just watched Fox News heavily promoting the Democrats through their DNC Communications Director, spewing out whatever whe wanted with zero pushback by anchor Sandra Smith.  Terrible considering that Fox couldn't even land a debate, the Dems give them NOTHING!  CNN & MSNBC are all in for the Open Border Socialists (or beyond).  Fox hires "give Hillary the questions" Donna Brazile, Juan Williams, and low ratings Shep Smith.  HOPELESS & CLUELESS!  They should go all the way LEFT and I will still find a way to Win - That's what I do, Win.  Too Bad!...

...I don't want to Win for myself, I only want to Win for the people.  The New Fox News is letting millions of GREAT people down!  We have to start looking for a new News Outlet.  Fox isn't working for us anymore! 
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Grant on August 28, 2019, 07:45:05 PM
8/28/19

A STATEMENT BY THE PRESIDENT

Puerto Rico is one of the most corrupt places on earth.  Their political system is broken and their politicians are either incompetent or Corrupt.  Congress approved Billions of Dollars last time, more than anyplace else has ever gotten, and it is sent to Crooked Pols.  No good!...

...And by the way, I'm the best thing that's ever happened to Puerto Rico!
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Grant on August 28, 2019, 07:47:24 PM
8/27/19

A STATEMENT BY THE PRESIDENT

They do stories so big on Elizabeth "Pocahontas" Warren's crowd sizes, adding many more people than are actually there, and yet my crowds, which are far bigger, get no coverage at all.  Fake News!
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Grant on August 28, 2019, 07:49:29 PM
8/27/19

A STATEMENT BY THE PRESIDENT

Wow!  Yet another big storm heading to Puerto Rico.  Will it ever end?  Congress approved 92 Billion Dollars for Puerto Rico last year, an all time record of its kind for "anywhere". 
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Grant on August 28, 2019, 07:51:24 PM
8/25/19

A STATEMENT BY THE PRESIDENT

My Stock Market gains must be judged from the day after the Election, November 9, 2016, where the Market went up big after the win, and because of the win.  Had my opponent won, CRASH!
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Grant on August 28, 2019, 07:57:25 PM
8/23/19

A STATEMENT BY THE PRESIDENT

As usual, the Fed did NOTHING!  It is incredible that they can "speak" without knowing or asking what I am doing, which will be announced very short.  We have a very strong dollar and a very weak Fed.  I will work "brilliantly" with both, and the US will do great.  My only question is, who is our bigger enemy, Jay Powell or Chairman Xi? 
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Grant on August 28, 2019, 08:02:38 PM
8/23/19

A STATEMENT BY THE PRESIDENT

Our Country has lost, stupidly, Trillions of Dollars with China over many years.   They have stolen our Intellectual Property at a rate of Hundreds of Billions of Dollars a year, & they want to continue.  I won't let that happen!  We don't need China and, frankly, would be far better off without them.  The vast amounts of money made and stolen by China from the United States, year after year, for decades, will and must STOP.  Our great American companies are hereby ordered to immediately start looking for an alternative to China, including bringing your companies HOME and making your products in the USA.  I will be responding to China's Tariffs this afternoon.  This is a GREAT opportunity for the United States. 

Also, I am ordering all carriers, including Fed Ex, Amazon, UPS and the Post Office, to SEARCH FOR & REFUSE all deliveries of Fentanyl from China (or anywhere else!).  Fentanyl kills 100,000 Americans a year.  President Xi said this would stop - it didn't.  Our Economy, because of our gains in the last 2 1/2 years, is MUCH larger than that or China.  We will keep it that way! 
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Grant on August 28, 2019, 08:09:12 PM
8/2/19

A STATEMENT BY THE PRESIDENT

Kim Jong Un and North Korea tested 3 short range missiles over the last number of days.  These missiles[sic] tests are not a violation of our signed Singapore agreement, nor was there discussion of short range missiles when we shook hands.  There may be a United Nations violation, but Chairman Kim does not want to disappoint me with a violation of trust, there is far too much for North Korea to gain - the potential as a Country, under Kim Jong Un's leadership, is unlimited.  Also, there is far too much to lose. I may be wrong, but I believe that Chairman Kim has a great and beautiful vision for his country, and only the United States, with me as President, can make that vision come true.  He will do the right thing because he is far too smart not to, and he does not want to disappoint his friend, President Trump! 
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Grant on August 28, 2019, 08:15:40 PM
3/17/19

A STATEMENT BY THE PRESIDENT

It’s truly incredible that shows like Saturday Night Live, not funny/no talent, can spend all of their time knocking the same person (me), over & over, without so much of a mention of “the other side.” Like an advertisement without consequences. Same with Late Night Shows.  Should Federal Election Commission and/or FCC look into this? There must be Collusion with the Democrats and, of course, Russia! Such one sided media coverage, most of it Fake News. Hard to believe I won and am winning. Approval Rating 52%, 93% with Republicans. Sorry! 
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Grant on August 28, 2019, 08:24:44 PM
1/6/18

A STATEMENT BY THE PRESIDENT

Now that Russian collusion, after one year of intense study, has proven to be a total hoax on the American public, the Democrats and their lapdogs, the Fake News Mainstream Media, are taking out the old Ronald Reagan playbook and screaming mental stability and intelligence.  Actually, throughout my life, my two greatest assets have been mental stability and being, like, really smart. Crooked Hillary Clinton also played these cards very hard and, as everyone knows, went down in flames. I went from VERY successful businessman, to top T.V. Star to President of the United States (on my first try). I think that would qualify as not smart, but genius....and a very stable genius at that!
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Crunch on August 29, 2019, 09:00:06 AM
Trump says mean and stupid things. OK. But I, like a lot of people, don't really care what he says. I care about what he does. I think actions and results are what we should measure, not if he says things that give some people a sad.

More Americans are now employed than ever recorded before in our history.
We have created more than 400,000 manufacturing jobs since my election.
Manufacturing jobs growing at the fastest rate in more than THREE DECADES.
New unemployment claims recently hit a 49-year low.
Median household income has hit the highest level ever recorded.
African-American unemployment has recently achieved the lowest rate ever recorded.
Hispanic-American unemployment is at the lowest rate ever recorded.
Asian-American unemployment recently achieved the lowest rate ever recorded.
Women’s unemployment recently reached the lowest rate in 65 years.
Youth unemployment has recently hit the lowest rate in nearly half a century.
Lowest unemployment rate ever recorded for Americans without a high school diploma.
Veterans’ unemployment recently reached its lowest rate in nearly 20 years.
Almost 3.9 million Americans have been lifted off food stamps since the election.

Record number of regulations eliminated. Freeing businesses to produce

Opened ANWR and approved Keystone XL and Dakota Access Pipelines.
United States is a net natural gas exporter for the first time since 1957.

Confirmed more circuit court judges than any other new administration.
Confirmed Supreme Court Justice Neil Gorsuch and nominated Judge Brett Kavanaugh.

A raft of new trade deals that are more favorable to the US.

The list goes on and on. For only a first term, this is pretty incredible. The results have been amazing and if the media weren't so rabidly biased and dishonest Trump's approval rating would be through the roof.

Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: D.W. on August 29, 2019, 09:18:12 AM
Quote
The results have been amazing and if the media weren't so rabidly biased and dishonest Trump's approval rating would be through the roof.
He'd probably gain double digits if he did nothing but abstain from using twitter.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Grant on August 29, 2019, 10:54:31 AM
Trump says mean and stupid things. OK. But I, like a lot of people, don't really care what he says. I care about what he does. I think actions and results are what we should measure, not if he says things that give some people a sad.

A STATEMENT BY DONALD J TRUMP

1/23/16

The people...my people...are so smart.  And you know what else they say about my people?  The polls?  They say I have the most loyal people.  Did you ever see that?  Where I could stand in the middle of 5th Avenue and and shoot somebody, and I wouldn't lose any voters! Ok?  It's incredible. 

Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Seriati on August 29, 2019, 02:08:11 PM
I'm not sure I understand the point of this thread.

Am I supposed to not like Trump because of the things he says?  And somehow like the "other guys" who say things that demean everyone that doesn't support them?

I think Crunch points out a fair point, should I reject Trump who's making real progress on a lot of issues the political class talks about but has no intent in changing in favor of backing a member of the political class who will say nicer words but do nothing but increase the power of the political class?

For all people call Trump a nazi, the real fascists are opposing him.  For all they call him an anti-Semite, they are uncritical of the real anti-semites in their own party.  For all they call him a racist, they turn a blind eye to the actual racists in their own party and support things that were unequivacolly racist just 10 years ago (safe spaces = separate but equal; identity politics = using race in discriminatory and illegal ways).  Trumps a bully?  So is the leftist media.  Trump says mean words, so does the leftist media.  Trump's an autocrat?  Hasn't overridden a single court decision, even when they violated the Constitutional separation of powers and directly tread on executive authority, didn't terminate a witch hunt conducted on false premises either, his predecessor?  Had no problem telling the country that it would be unConstituional for him to act and then doing it anyway.

Like or not, Hillary declared half the country deplorables, that's the people not just their politicians, Obama was not much better with his dismissal of those people who cling to their religion and guns and fail to see the shining light that is him. 

Could we have a better President than Trump, absolutely and without question.  Is that person a politician?  Not a chance. 

So why the angst?  Seriously, other than his crassness, Trump is milder than just about every other President where it matters and mostly didn't care.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Wayward Son on August 29, 2019, 02:13:07 PM
Trump says mean and stupid things. OK. But I, like a lot of people, don't really care what he says. I care about what he does. I think actions and results are what we should measure, not if he says things that give some people a sad.

It's his high level of respect for other people that allows me to call Trump an idiot with a good conscience. :)

Quote
More Americans are now employed than ever recorded before in our history.
We have created more than 400,000 manufacturing jobs since my election.
Manufacturing jobs growing at the fastest rate in more than THREE DECADES.
New unemployment claims recently hit a 49-year low.
Median household income has hit the highest level ever recorded.
African-American unemployment has recently achieved the lowest rate ever recorded.
Hispanic-American unemployment is at the lowest rate ever recorded.
Asian-American unemployment recently achieved the lowest rate ever recorded.
Women’s unemployment recently reached the lowest rate in 65 years.
Youth unemployment has recently hit the lowest rate in nearly half a century.
Lowest unemployment rate ever recorded for Americans without a high school diploma.
Veterans’ unemployment recently reached its lowest rate in nearly 20 years.
Almost 3.9 million Americans have been lifted off food stamps since the election.

How much of this is because of Trump, and how much is just the natural recovery from the last recession?

Consider this chart. (http://davidbrin.blogspot.com/search?updated-max=2019-08-09T17:30:00-07:00&max-results=20)  Does this show Trump doing an exceptionally better job than Obama?

And if the economy goes south before the election, will you give him credit for that, too?  Or will you blame the Democrats, the Federal Reserve Bank, the media, the Chinese, and everyone else you can think of, like Trump will?

Remember: Presidents don't control the economy.  There are a myriad of other forces at play.  They can do things that help the economy (like cutting taxes), but those don't guarantee a good economy.  Contrariwise, they can do things that hurt the economy (like trade wars).  In fact, it is much easier for a President to hurt an economy than to help it, just like it is much easier to become poor than to become rich.

Quote
Record number of regulations eliminated. Freeing businesses to produce.

And freeing business to pollute, cheat, and do other bad things that those regulations were intended to prevent.

BTW, do you have a list of those regulations eliminated?  It would be interesting to see.

Quote
Opened ANWR and approved Keystone XL and Dakota Access Pipelines.
United States is a net natural gas exporter for the first time since 1957.

Helps our economy for now.  Not so good since it also contributes to AGW.

Quote
Confirmed more circuit court judges than any other new administration.

Confirmed Supreme Court Justice Neil Gorsuch and nominated Judge Brett Kavanaugh.

It helps when you have a Senate Majority Leader that won't sit on your nominations and lie to the American people that there is some made-up "tradition" that prevents him from doing so.

Quote
A raft of new trade deals that are more favorable to the US.

Do you have list?  The ones I've heard of (e.g. the new NAFTA) were just small modifications of old ones.

Quote
The list goes on and on. For only a first term, this is pretty incredible. The results have been amazing and if the media weren't so rabidly biased and dishonest Trump's approval rating would be through the roof.

It amazes me that people still believe that every news reporter and editor in every single network are "rabidly biased and dishonest" about Trump, when we all know that Trump lies. :)  (Not to mention being stupid and despicable--see above.)
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Seriati on August 29, 2019, 02:41:27 PM
Lol, sure Wayward, it's just delusion that the media hates Trump.  It was totally their practice to cover Obama for 95% of the time from the second he was inaugerated in a negative way.  I remember how they went out of their way to cite every negative thing Obama said as a nightly headline and bury the positives and the caveat.  I remember how they went out of their way to expose all of Obama's lies on his healthcare plan and to explode every negative detail and bury the positive.

I remember how they spent two years selling a fake story about Obama, how they routinely published as fact "anonymous" and ridiculous claims about him, rather than demanding on the record proven accounts that they then buried or 'splained away.  Sure, and I remember how the NYT's had a meeting after 2 years of lies about Obama fell apart to choose a new lie to sell rather than tell the truth.

Oh and I especially remember how they didn't go out of their way to claim that any political opposition to Obama had no legitimate policy concerns about it and was only because his opponents were racist.

I mean heck, it's not like he won a Nobel Peace Prize before he actually accomplished anything like Trump.

I've also really appreciated how the media has torn apart the lies about Obama's economic recovery and the fake claim that Trump's massive boost to economic confidence was just a carry over from Obama's underwhelming policies that suppressed growth and investment.  I mean without their dedication to honesty, someone like you might be able to get away with a nonsense soundbite that sounds reasonable based on nothing more than an unexamined trend line. 

Yes, I'm so thankful that our media turns the light of truth wherever there is darkness and lies without any consideration of who it might benefit, rather than say openly and secretly committing to phrase everything in ways and only report things that benefit one party, to which they happen to overwhelming align.  Thank goodness they spent so much time pointing out how trivial Russian influence was next to their own massive propaganda efforts, to clear up any confusing someone might have.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Grant on August 29, 2019, 02:50:59 PM
I'm not sure I understand the point of this thread.

Am I supposed to not like Trump because of the things he says?

8/2/19

A STATEMENT BY THE PRESIDENT

Really bad news! The Baltimore house of Elijah Cummings was robbed. Too bad!

Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Crunch on August 29, 2019, 02:55:14 PM
Actually, that one was pretty funny.

Trump’s trolling of Gillebrand after she withdrew was hysterical.

8/28/19

A STATEMENT BU THE PRESIDENT

A sad day for the Democrats, Kirsten Gillibrand has dropped out of the Presidential Primary. I’m glad they never found out that she was the one I was really afraid of!

 :o ;D
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Grant on August 29, 2019, 03:02:37 PM
So why the angst?  Seriously, other than his crassness, Trump is milder than just about every other President where it matters and mostly didn't care.

5/3/16

A STATEMENT BY DONALD J TRUMP

His father was with Lee Harvey Oswald prior to Oswald's being — you know, shot. I mean, the whole thing is ridiculous.  What is this, right prior to his being shot, and nobody even brings it up. They don't even talk about that. That was reported, and nobody talks about it.  I mean, what was he doing — what was he doing with Lee Harvey Oswald shortly before the death? Before the shooting? It’s horrible.

Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Seriati on August 29, 2019, 03:06:03 PM
Is the point then to waste our time?
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Wayward Son on August 29, 2019, 06:31:34 PM
The point is that it doesn't matter what the media says about Trump.  These are Trump's words.

The point is to see how much of Trump's own words you can take before you have to throw up.  How many fallacies, insults, conspiracy theories, stupidities, idiocies, and shameful utterances it takes before you realize that this man is not qualified to be President.

Grant isn't doing any spin.  He's not commenting.  He's not trying to tell you what you should think about any particular post, or even this thread.  He's just laying it out, clear as day, exactly what the President is saying.

If nothing else, it's going to show you what your price is.  For what you are willing to sell this nation for.  To demonstrate your values, and how much you can tolerate this juvenile behavior.

Please keep reading this thread.  And ask yourself after each one, is this the man you want to lead the greatest nation in the world?  Is this the man you want as the face of America?  Is this the man you want to have the most powerful post in the world?  Is this the man you want to have his finger on the nuclear button?

Remember--no spin.  Just President Donald Trump's own words, unaltered.

At least, that's what I think his point is.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Grant on August 29, 2019, 07:10:07 PM
10/16/2018

A STATEMENT FROM THE PRESIDENT

Just spoke with the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia who totally denied any knowledge of what took place in their Turkish Consulate. He was with Secretary of State Mike Pompeo during the call, and told me that he has already started, and will rapidly expand, a full and complete investigation into this matter. Answers will be forthcoming shortly.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Grant on August 29, 2019, 07:21:10 PM
2/6/2017

A STATEMENT FROM THE PRESIDENT

There are a lot of killers.  We've got a lot of killers.  What, do you think our country's so innocent? 

Take a look at what we've done too.  We've made a lot of mistakes.  I've been against the war in Iraq from the beginning.  A lot of mistakes, ok.  But a lot of people were killed.  So a lot of killers around, believe me. 
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Seriati on August 29, 2019, 07:25:15 PM
Okay then, just the liked the ones that don't bother me at all.  Which is, so far, all of them other than the Oswald one, which in fairness I don't understand.

Still don't see the point of the thread.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: JoshuaD on August 29, 2019, 11:41:14 PM
At a minimum, for those of us who refuse to engage with twitter, its an informative read.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Crunch on August 30, 2019, 08:55:06 AM
How so?
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Crunch on August 30, 2019, 08:58:09 AM
Quote
Remember--no spin.  Just President Donald Trump's own words, unaltered.

A highly selective subset of Trump’s tweets. Yeah, no way that could be spin! Literally unpossible.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Grant on August 30, 2019, 10:21:08 AM
A highly selective subset of Trump’s tweets. Yeah, no way that could be spin! Literally unpossible.

4/10/18

A STATEMENT BY THE PRESIDENT

A TOTAL WITCH HUNT!!
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Grant on August 30, 2019, 10:29:50 AM
11/29/17

A STATEMENT BY THE PRESIDENT

Theresa May, don't focus on me, focus on the destructive Radical Islamic Terrorism that is taking place within the United Kingdom.  We are doing just fine!
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: scifibum on August 30, 2019, 12:52:12 PM
The list of Trump's accomplishments includes:

Unprecedented corruption among his appointees.
Unmitigated torrent of lies. (Notably including several tweets that "don't bother Seriati at all".)
Exploding federal deficit.
First creating a crisis for US agriculture, then increasing "socialist" payments to farmers to compensate.
Letting N. Korea do whatever they want, continue to praise the dictator.
Letting Iran get back to its nuclear program.
Advocating for Putin at every opportunity.
Emboldening white supremacists.
Got away with illegal payoff to Stormy Daniels.
Demonstrably ruined the US standing in the international community.
Won a presidential campaign based on racism and empty promises.

Then there's the lack of accomplishments:
Doing something to prevent foreign election interference.
Implementing his promised (but secret) solutions on health care.
Mexico paying for the wall.
Weren't those tax cuts supposed to boost federal revenues?
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Grant on August 30, 2019, 01:04:13 PM
The list of Trump's accomplishments includes:

Unprecedented corruption among his appointees.
Unmitigated torrent of lies. (Notably including several tweets that "don't bother Seriati at all".)
Exploding federal deficit.
First creating a crisis for US agriculture, then increasing "socialist" payments to farmers to compensate.
Letting N. Korea do whatever they want, continue to praise the dictator.
Letting Iran get back to its nuclear program.
Advocating for Putin at every opportunity.
Emboldening white supremacists.
Got away with illegal payoff to Stormy Daniels.
Demonstrably ruined the US standing in the international community.
Won a presidential campaign based on racism and empty promises.

Then there's the lack of accomplishments:
Doing something to prevent foreign election interference.
Implementing his promised (but secret) solutions on health care.
Mexico paying for the wall.
Weren't those tax cuts supposed to boost federal revenues?

2/22/2019

A STATEMENT BY THE PRESIDENT

Fake News is so bad for our Country!
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Seriati on August 30, 2019, 01:46:49 PM
The list of Trump's accomplishments includes:

Unprecedented corruption among his appointees.

Not demonstratable on any basis.  In fact, pretty nonsensical if you know any history, and that's before we get into Obama's corruption of the bureacracy.

Quote
Unmitigated torrent of lies. (Notably including several tweets that "don't bother Seriati at all".)

Shrug.  90% or more of the lies are not lies, just things the leftists disagree with.  And it's not like the choices were between a liar and a truth teller, the DNC's emails opened the book on that.

So I'm taking this as a fake complaint, unless you want to walk through a couple lies and how they are more damaging than the media's lies about him, or the left's lies about policies?

Quote
Exploding federal deficit.

Yep, though it's question complicated, I agree Trump hasn't done anything effective to cut spending and his predecessors were not spendthrifts either.

Quote
First creating a crisis for US agriculture, then increasing "socialist" payments to farmers to compensate.

Lol, that's a masterpiece in misdirection.  I think what you mean, is biting the bullet and confronting abusive global trade practices ignored by both parties for decades while our middle class jobs disappeared and the wealthy used international trade to build the income gap; and then having the compassion to actually support those who were asked to bear the harms of trying to combat that trade policy.

Or you could just pretend that you both have a problem with the income of billionaires and the elimination of the middle class, and support the uncontrolled global trade abuse that creates that situation.

Quote
Letting N. Korea do whatever they want, continue to praise the dictator.

Lol, that's a warped interpretation of that, that completely glosses over the actual progress.  Can you really not give any credit?
 
Quote
Letting Iran get back to its nuclear program.

Lie.  The Iran deal did next to nothing to stop that, and everything about it gave the money to the Iranian economy it needed to get there.  Obama's policy on Iran was moronic, and did nothing real to prevent Iranian nuclear development.

Quote
Advocating for Putin at every opportunity.

Lie.  Remind me again, who was it that did nothing when Putin annexed Crimea?  Who refused to provide support to Ukraine after promising he would do so?  Who backed off his line in the sand when Russia ignored it?

Oh yeah, who was it who was President when Russia interfered with our elections and did nothing about it, other than use it as an excuse to spy on the opposition party's Presidential campaign (something that forced Nixon to resign, but apparently has no consequence these days)?
 
Or maybe you can just list out some examples of this advocacy?  Or policies that demonstrate it?

Quote
Emboldening white supremacists.

Lie.  He can't control how the media lies about what he says, nor the media's desire to puff up the dying breed of white supremacists for political points.

Meanwhile, not one policy that supports them, and dozens that support minorities. 
 
Quote
Got away with illegal payoff to Stormy Daniels.

What law made them illegal again?  Just another lie here.

Quote
Demonstrably ruined the US standing in the international community.

Maybe, of course you made the same charge against Bush, and against first Bush, and against Reagan, and it was demonstrably true that Obama did so.

In any event, whoop'dee do.  The fact that a bunch of fascists and self serving Europeans claim our "standing" is diminshed while they still follow Real Politick and cut deals with us and act the same they always have where we lead is just a talking point not a fact.
 
Quote
Won a presidential campaign based on racism and empty promises.

Lies.  No racism in the campaign.  Better record on carrying out promises than any recent administration.

Quote
Then there's the lack of accomplishments:
Doing something to prevent foreign election interference.

Actually false, a ton has been done, the media just doesn't report on it.  Lots of hardening of electronic resources and dedication to identifying and disrupting foreign influence campaigns.

Are you actually arguing this doesn't exist, or just making an assertion from ignorance?

Quote
Implementing his promised (but secret) solutions on health care.

I agree, no one who claimed they had a solution for health care really did.  Let you in on a secret, neither does the left.  Unless you think it's a real plan to eliminate the wealthy and use their resources to pay for a year or two of Bernie's plan before it collapses?

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Mexico paying for the wall.

I think the interpretation on this one is particularly spitefull.  It's just a matter of fact that the US government pays for things, whether or not the economics ultimately tracks back to another source.  Trump has - without any honest basis for dispute - gotten more concessions out of Mexico on immigration than pretty much the last what 6 Presidents combined?  He's also gotten a better trade deal out of them, which Congress may hold up anyway.

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Weren't those tax cuts supposed to boost federal revenues?

You're just not paying attention, 2019 revenue is up, despite lower corporate revenue (dropping from 35% to 21% only lowered revenue by 7%) and income taxes being generally flat, despite big cuts giving the vast majority a tax break.  So how did that happen?  Literally the way it should if Trump is right, pay roll tax revenue is massively up because more people are employed and more people got raises.

So literally, Trump's theory played out in reality, and I think your angst has been debunked.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: scifibum on August 30, 2019, 02:01:50 PM
It would obviously take years to deprogram you, so I'll pick just one:

Quote
Lies.  No racism in the campaign.

He ran on bigotry against Muslims and Mexicans. You've got some kind of no true Scotsman definition of racism.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Grant on August 30, 2019, 02:10:22 PM
In any event, whoop'dee do.  The fact that a bunch of fascists and self serving Europeans claim our "standing" is diminshed while they still follow Real Politick and cut deals with us and act the same they always have where we lead is just a talking point not a fact.
 

7/14/2017

A STATEMENT BY THE PRESIDENT

Great evening with President Emmanuel Macron and Mrs. Macron.  Went to Eiffel Tower for dinner.  Relationship with France stronger than ever! 
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Grant on August 30, 2019, 02:14:18 PM

He ran on bigotry against Muslims and Mexicans. You've got some kind of no true Scotsman definition of racism.

6/11/2016

A STATEMENT BY THE PRESIDENT

Don King, and so many other African Americans who know me well and endorse me, would not have done so if they thought I was a racist! 
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Fenring on August 30, 2019, 02:15:16 PM
It would obviously take years to deprogram you, so I'll pick just one:

Quote
Lies.  No racism in the campaign.

He ran on bigotry against Muslims and Mexicans. You've got some kind of no true Scotsman definition of racism.

I'll go in on the second clause that was in this particular claim:

Quote
Won a presidential campaign based on racism and empty promises.

This has been the only Presidency that I can remember where, after being elected, the President would outright name a campaign promise and say "ok now we are going to tackle this!" Actually, the biggest problem liberals seem to have had with Trump is that he actually goes ahead with his campaign promises. Since they hated his campaign and its promises, going through with them is basically their worst nightmare. It's fine to argue that his campaign promises were horrible, but that position is incompatible with then claiming that his campaign was builty on empty promises. I've never seen a President act like such a tryhard to make his promises happen - for better or worse.

Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Seriati on August 30, 2019, 02:41:51 PM
It would obviously take years to deprogram you, so I'll pick just one:

Quote
Lies.  No racism in the campaign.

He ran on bigotry against Muslims and Mexicans. You've got some kind of no true Scotsman definition of racism.

In my view, you picked that largely because the others were things you knew you couldn't defend.

So let's ask ourselves, was Trump's running on securing the border, more likely because 80%+ of the population wanted a secure border at the time and the Government refused to do anything but lie about it, or because he hates Mexicans, in some context that's failed to appear in any of his interpersonal interactions over decades?  I know which is more likely, but haters gotta hate, so I'm guessing you don't.

Even the actual quotes here that get cited as "racist" are often falsely cropped and always pulled out of context.  I've seen hundreds of times leftists claim that Trump said all Mexicans are rapists or animals, and totally ignore the facts in question.  Something like 1 out of 3 women seeking Asylum across the border is raped on the way, there's a proven history of criminals who are deported using the open borders to re-enter (and now there's a proven history of leftist activists letting them go free when arrested rather than work with ICE to deport them). 

I've walked through at least a dozen times, how the current situation oppresses the poor and the migrants, but that falls on deaf ears because you want to believe your side is good.  Calling Trump a racist feeds a meme you want to believe about yourself while ignoring that the policies you are opposing would replace a terrible situation with a better one.

Muslims?  I've seen no evidence of that.  The so called Muslim ban was in fact a sensible targetting at countries with broken record keeping systems where the identity of the people coming in couldn't reasonably be verified.  Any anti-Muslim actions against other majority Muslim countries?  Nope.  Against US Muslims?  Not really.

Is it shocking that any real racists are not going to support the Democrat positions of Open borders and unlimited immigration from the third world without regard to who is coming in?  Not really, but the fact is that's a position that a couple hundred million people in this country could support without the least trace of racism behind it.

So yeah, I find it functionally stupid to believe that appealing to a tiny demographic of racists that everyone else in the country hates and goes out of their way to disclaim any connection to, was really the "strategy" of the Trump campaign.  You seem not to be able to consider that the strategy was to appeal to massively popular positions of a majority of the country rather than to fringe racists.  And why is that?  There's only one group that sells the narrative you're selling, and they're doing it for power, not out of conviction.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Grant on August 30, 2019, 02:42:10 PM

This has been the only Presidency that I can remember where, after being elected, the President would outright name a campaign promise and say "ok now we are going to tackle this!" Actually, the biggest problem liberals seem to have had with Trump is that he actually goes ahead with his campaign promises. Since they hated his campaign and its promises, going through with them is basically their worst nightmare. It's fine to argue that his campaign promises were horrible, but that position is incompatible with then claiming that his campaign was builty on empty promises. I've never seen a President act like such a tryhard to make his promises happen - for better or worse.

8/21/2018

A STATEMENT BY THE PRESIDENT

Bill DeBlasio, the high taxing Mayor of NYC, just stole my campaign slogan:  PROMISES MADE PROMISES KEPT!  That's not at all nice.  No imagination!
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Grant on August 30, 2019, 02:48:15 PM

So yeah, I find it functionally stupid to believe that appealing to a tiny demographic of racists that everyone else in the country hates and goes out of their way to disclaim any connection to, was really the "strategy" of the Trump campaign.  You seem not to be able to consider that the strategy was to appeal to massively popular positions of a majority of the country rather than to fringe racists.  And why is that?  There's only one group that sells the narrative you're selling, and they're doing it for power, not out of conviction.

7/16/2019

A STATEMENT BY THE PRESIDENT

Those Tweets were NOT Racist. I don’t have a Racist bone in my body! The so-called vote to be taken is a Democrat con game. Republicans should not show “weakness” and fall into their trap. This should be a vote on the filthy language, statements and lies told by the Democrat Congresswomen, who I truly believe, based on their actions, hate our Country. Get a list of the HORRIBLE things they have said. Omar is polling at 8%, Cortez at 21%. Nancy Pelosi tried to push them away, but now they are forever wedded to the Democrat Party. See you in 2020!
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: scifibum on August 30, 2019, 05:00:51 PM
"Democrat positions of Open borders and unlimited immigration"

Go ahead and find me the policy statement...I'll wait.

I'll note that the Freedom Caucus killed bipartisan immigration reform that included MASSIVE spending on border security. Democrats tried to pass that. 

You're just repeating a false dichotomy that Trump has been selling, that it's his way or "open borders".

I seem to remember you were credulous of Trump's lies about a massive "invasion" last fall too.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Seriati on August 30, 2019, 05:36:04 PM
Quote
"Democrat positions of Open borders and unlimited immigration"

Go ahead and find me the policy statement...I'll wait.

You didn't prove anything you said, the evidence of Trump's policies and actions is life is directly contrary to the racism story, yet according to you, Trump is a racist notwithstanding the evidence, but I have to prove that the Dems want open borders with a signed memo?

How about all but 2 Presidential candidates raising their hands to de criminalize illegal border crossings?  How about protesting any changes to the current "nonenforcement" at the border?  Protesting detaining people until their claims can be adjudicated.  Protesting removing back to a safe country for processing.  Protesting a requirement that they apply at the legitimate border crossing?  Protesting a raid on an employer that actually caught illegal aliens?  Refusing to work with ICE, or honor ICE detainers even for criminal aliens and repeated illegal crossers?  How about issuing ids that intentionally mask immigration status, or handing out freebies to incentivise coming?  How about refusing to address overworked justice systems that have never been provided the resources to actually manage the flows?

Is there something about that reality that requires I also produce a signed affadavit?  ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS.

And I like how you cropped by quote, in a thread where I'm asserting the media loves to misrepresent to drop the reference to where the unlimited immigration comes from.

Quote
I'll note that the Freedom Caucus killed bipartisan immigration reform that included MASSIVE spending on border security. Democrats tried to pass that.

Prove that to me.  What exact bill did the Freedom Caucus kill how much was the massive border security spend of the Democrats, and specifically, I'd like you to assert in a provable manner than such bill did not include obvious poison pills, like say prohibiting building a wall, prohibitting detention pending adjudication, mandating what amounts to an illegal immigrant green card and path to citizenship.

Seriously, since this is your fact situation it shouldn't be any problem for you.  Or was it just a nice sounding soundbite that you know is misleading?

Quote
You're just repeating a false dichotomy that Trump has been selling, that it's his way or "open borders".

Nah.  The real dichotomy is that any anyone but Trump will do anything to actually control the borders.  There's a million and one things that could be done, they've all been on the table for decades and not a one of them has seriously advanced.

So, the reach dichotomy is the choice between empty promises and actual actions, you just don't get to pick the actions.

Quote
I seem to remember you were credulous of Trump's lies about a massive "invasion" last fall too.

What lies would those be?  The ones the media had to actual support a month after Trump said them because it got so obvious it couldn't be ignored, and they really wanted to flip the script from "no crisis" to evil Trump administration runs "overcrowded concentration camps."

Cognitive dissonnance forcing people to continually ignore reality is no way to live.  Trump's not evil, get over it.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Grant on August 30, 2019, 05:55:46 PM
Trump's not evil, get over it.

2/3/17

A STATEMENT BY THE PRESIDENT

We must keep "evil" out of our country! 
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Wayward Son on August 30, 2019, 06:33:01 PM
Which only proves that anyone who's against Trump is for evil.  Evil, I say!  Evil, EVIL, EEEEVVVVIIIIILLLLL!!! :)
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Grant on August 30, 2019, 07:03:12 PM
Which only proves that anyone who's against Trump is for evil.  Evil, I say!  Evil, EVIL, EEEEVVVVIIIIILLLLL!!! :)

11/1/17

A STATEMENT BY THE PRESIDENT

CHAIN MIGRATION must end now! Some people come in, and they bring their whole family with them, who can be truly evil. NOT ACCEPTABLE!
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Grant on August 31, 2019, 07:49:02 AM
8/30/19

A STATEMENT BY THE PRESIDENT

The United States of America was not involved in the catastrophic accident during final launch preparations for the Safir SLV Launch at Semnan Launch Site One in Iran. I wish Iran best wishes and good luck in determining what happened at Site One.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EDPFB_XWkAY6QWB.jpg:large
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: yossarian22c on September 02, 2019, 03:51:47 PM
Looks like Trump may have tweeted out a classified image from a spy satellite. Whoops.

https://www.npr.org/2019/09/02/756673481/amateurs-identify-u-s-spy-satellite-behind-president-trumps-tweet (https://www.npr.org/2019/09/02/756673481/amateurs-identify-u-s-spy-satellite-behind-president-trumps-tweet)
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: D.W. on September 03, 2019, 04:09:45 AM
^  Primary reason the Area 51 raid sounds super lame.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: yossarian22c on September 03, 2019, 08:31:22 AM
^  Primary reason the Area 51 raid sounds super lame.

I thought the reason it was super lame was getting shot and dying for no reason in the Nevada desert.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Wayward Son on September 03, 2019, 10:37:14 AM
"In addition to Florida - South Carolina, North Carolina, Georgia, and Alabama, will most likely be hit (much) harder than anticipated. Looking like one of the largest hurricanes ever. Already category 5. BE CAREFUL! GOD BLESS EVERYONE!"

"Such a phony hurricane report by lightweight reporter @jonkarl of @ABCWorldNews. I suggested yesterday at FEMA that, along with Florida, Georgia, South Carolina and North Carolina, even Alabama could possibly come into play, which WAS true. They made a big deal about this..."

"....when in fact, under certain original scenarios, it was in fact correct that Alabama could have received some “hurt.” Always good to be prepared! But the Fake News is only interested in demeaning and belittling. Didn’t play my whole sentence or statement. Bad people!"
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Seriati on September 03, 2019, 10:58:43 AM
I despise weather reporting.  Anything that sensationalizes something that should be purely informative is gross.  My wife on the other hand loves it, so we "compromise" and watch it all day whenever a storm is coming.  At least at this point, I've worn off enough on her that she enjoys mocking it.

I find it totally despicable that they rush to the path of the storm to get "award winning" shots, which often as not are faked.  I mean standing in a pothole in waders?  Holding yourself upright against storm force winds while kids in shorts cross the screen calmly behind you.

But the worst, is the abject disappointment on their faces and in their coverage when they get there too soon and the storm stalls.  It's clear they want it to hit, and want it to kill and destroy, and that's just such a warped thing that it should be criminal.

In any event, I hope we already have plans in place to send help down to the Bahamas, can't imagine what it's really like to have a Cat 3-5 park itself on top of you for days.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Grant on September 03, 2019, 11:49:39 AM
I despise weather reporting. 

2/24/15

A STATEMENT FROM DONALD TRUMP, CHAIRMAN AND PRESIDENT OF TRUMP ORGANIZATION

The evening news broadcasts must stop talking about weather—boring and too many other topics.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: D.W. on September 03, 2019, 07:56:39 PM
^  Primary reason the Area 51 raid sounds super lame.

I thought the reason it was super lame was getting shot and dying for no reason in the Nevada desert.
That's what I mean.  :)  The "no reason" part.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Wayward Son on September 05, 2019, 11:51:14 AM
Quote
"In addition to Florida - South Carolina, North Carolina, Georgia, and Alabama, will most likely be hit (much) harder than anticipated. Looking like one of the largest hurricanes ever. Already category 5. BE CAREFUL! GOD BLESS EVERYONE!"

And this is how pathetic Trump is in defending his tweets.

He spent time on Wednesday to make a video to show how the National Hurricane Center predicted hurricane Dorian might affect Alabama. (https://shareblue.com/trump-fake-map-hurricane-dorian-alabama-lie/)  And how did he do it?  He took one of their maps of the hurricane's possible path and extended the forecast with a sharpie pen.  ::)

Quote
"The President of the United States altered a National Hurricane Center map with a sharpie to falsely extend the official forecast toward Alabama so he didn't have to admit he was wrong in a tweet," noted weather writer Dennis Mersereau, who captured the screenshot of Trump's alteration.

With all the troubles in the world, with him cancelling his trip to Poland to oversee hurricane Dorian's progress, this is what he wastes his time on.  He has people set up video equipment, print out a map, and mark it up so it says something it didn't, just to avoid having to say, "Sorry, I misinterpreted what the forecasts were saying and how likely it was for Alabama to be affected."  This is how petty the President of the United States, the most powerful nation in the world, is.

This is the current face of the Republican Party.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDrake on September 05, 2019, 12:09:51 PM
1. The media is making a big deal over nothing, it really doesn't matter if he said Alabama or not.
2. The map was digitally altered by the corrupt main stream media propaganda.
3. The map was altered by Obama appointees to make Trump look bad.
4. We should really be worried about more important things like illegal immigration.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: rightleft22 on September 05, 2019, 12:52:27 PM
Don't forget
5. It doesn't matter what he says only what he does... (Hate that one – begs to many question of ethics, morals, character… for  both the supporter and leader)
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: scifibum on September 05, 2019, 02:36:38 PM
It would be really easy to avoid the media circus on this kind of gaffe if Trump was able to admit error. He's not, and he keeps it alive by making it too ridiculous to ignore.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDrake on September 05, 2019, 02:58:38 PM
But it does divide the attention away from the redirection of military construction funds, at least a little.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: rightleft22 on September 05, 2019, 03:22:07 PM
Quote
he keeps it alive by making it too ridiculous to ignore.

All part of the game. I've been much happier seeing it for what it is and not playing.

His followers will eventually see him for what he is and represents or they won't... or maybe I'll see him differently someday, or won't... probably not. Its a philosophical character issue for me and I don't see who he is as a person changing.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: DJQuag on September 05, 2019, 08:34:30 PM
Quote
he keeps it alive by making it too ridiculous to ignore.

All part of the game. I've been much happier seeing it for what it is and not playing.

His followers will eventually see him for what he is and represents or they won't... or maybe I'll see him differently someday, or won't... probably not. Its a philosophical character issue for me and I don't see who he is as a person changing.

Lol. We have a fine example of the most intelligent and educated Trumptards posting right here on this board. They've made it clear they'll never admit he can do wrong, you think the average person is going to?

DJQuag: Please see your email. -OrneryMod
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: JoshuaD on September 10, 2019, 05:31:39 PM
At a minimum, for those of us who refuse to engage with twitter, its an informative read.
How so?

I understand Grant's postings to be a criticism and I trust that he's not doctoring the messages.  He's also not surrounding the posts with noisy commentary. 

Given those things, I'm relatively confident that Grant is compiling a list of the most offensive, inarticulate, or stupid things Trump has said on twitter. 

It's informative to me because it provides me with a "bottom floor" for the things Trump said on Twitter. After reading this thread, I can be relatively confident that Trump hasn't said anything worse on that platform than what Grant highlighted.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: rightleft22 on September 11, 2019, 09:59:35 AM
Quote
you think the average person is going to?

I don't think anyone that participates in the social media quagmire will change.
I am reassured though that their is a growing number people dropping the labels right or left and who see social media 'dialog' for what it is.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Seriati on September 11, 2019, 11:00:48 AM
I understand Grant's postings to be a criticism and I trust that he's not doctoring the messages.  He's also not surrounding the posts with noisy commentary. 

Given those things, I'm relatively confident that Grant is compiling a list of the most offensive, inarticulate, or stupid things Trump has said on twitter.

To be fair to Grant, I'm guessing you have no conception of the volume of Trump tweets involved.  I doubt he's really grabbing the "most" offensive or stupid things.  I think at this point we all understand that Trump's going to post things that have phone correction errors, and that they're posted will little to no reflection.  Some are just stupid, some are reactions to an instant event or report that shouldn't have been reacted, and some are just mean to or about people in ways that violate our social norms.

And while I think everyone would be happier if his tweets weren't that way, to my view that would just leave the media uncontested when they pass along nonsense and decide to misinform. 

Quote
It's informative to me because it provides me with a "bottom floor" for the things Trump said on Twitter. After reading this thread, I can be relatively confident that Trump hasn't said anything worse on that platform than what Grant highlighted.

I seriously doubt that.  But what's interesting to me about Trump is how unfiltered he is.  Do you honestly believe that the politicians who you don't hear from have never said anything questionable?  I don't one person - in the whole world - hard left or right, that I've talked to in depth who hasn't said something that's cringeworthy or intolerant.

And to the Mod, while I'd prefer that DJQuag didn't include the insults, the sentiment he's expressing doesn't bother me, at least.  Lot's of people have strong feelings and thoughts, to the point that they skip over things that contradict them (like the idea I've never criticized Trump or said he's wrong about something).
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: rightleft22 on September 11, 2019, 01:48:46 PM
Quote
Do you honestly believe that the politicians who you don't hear from have never said anything questionable?

Of course not. However I don't think that is a argument for accepting or disregarding such unfiltered comments.
 
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: yossarian22c on September 11, 2019, 02:14:02 PM
Looks like Trump may have tweeted out a classified image from a spy satellite. Whoops.

https://www.npr.org/2019/09/02/756673481/amateurs-identify-u-s-spy-satellite-behind-president-trumps-tweet (https://www.npr.org/2019/09/02/756673481/amateurs-identify-u-s-spy-satellite-behind-president-trumps-tweet)

Do people care that Trump revealed the capabilities of our spy satellites simply to troll the Iranians? Just curious, seems like a poor choice. Or is it so far down on the list of Trump twitter mistakes that no one really cares.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: D.W. on September 11, 2019, 02:21:29 PM
The only extent that I care about that is the thoughtlessness it demonstrates.  While we do suffer from an excess of bureaucracy and over-classification, SOME of those rules exist for a reason.  A lower or mid level official making those mistakes is one thing but as you get higher up the chain of command, one would hope, the care one shows for those procedures would increase.  (But as we saw with H.C. on the other side, that obviously is not the case.)

It, appears (likely only bias), that because it wasn't important to him, the rules didn't apply. 

Beyond that, showing off how good our imagery imaging? is I think is fine or even a good thing.  We ARE watching.  Paranoia costs them more resources. 
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: JoshuaD on September 11, 2019, 04:45:11 PM
Quote
It's informative to me because it provides me with a "bottom floor" for the things Trump said on Twitter. After reading this thread, I can be relatively confident that Trump hasn't said anything worse on that platform than what Grant highlighted.

I seriously doubt that.  But what's interesting to me about Trump is how unfiltered he is.  Do you honestly believe that the politicians who you don't hear from have never said anything questionable?  I don't one person - in the whole world - hard left or right, that I've talked to in depth who hasn't said something that's cringeworthy or intolerant.

Sure, there's an error bar. That's fine. This list of naked tweets is probably a lot more informative than whatever news site's 20 paragraph article on Trump or Trump's latest tweets.

Quote
But what's interesting to me about Trump is how unfiltered he is.

I don't tend to see this as a virtue. I think it's good that our Presidents have historically been relatively careful with their public speech.

Our level of dialog has dropped off the face of the earth. Between Trump, the news networks, the clickbait news headlines, the advent of social media, and whatever else, things are particularly ugly right now.  I don't put all of that on Trump, but Trump is contributing to it.  We can and should demand better from all of them.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: rightleft22 on September 11, 2019, 05:16:16 PM
To be balanced I'm also disappointed the Biden does not take ownership of his gaffs
IMO it should be fine to admit you messed up details but the defense that the its intent of the statement is that matters is troubling especially if your going up against a man like Trump.

If your going to use a story to make a point make sure you know your details and if you don't don't use the story.
And if you mess it up, admit it and move on.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: JoshuaD on September 11, 2019, 05:37:39 PM
There is something very admirable in the way that Trump was able to power through the media trying to take him down, and they definitely did try to take him down.

I look at Romney in 2012 with the completely fabricated "binders full of women" gaff and I wish that Romney would have had a little bit of that teflon in him. 

It's weird. It's hard to see how to do that while at the same time having some sense of decency and restraint.  Trump's unfiltered approach was pretty key to him being able to power through those attacks.

---

I watched a video recently where someone talked about how Nazi Germany was a cooperative effort between Hitler and the crowd, and how he would say things in his speeches and then adjust his rhetoric based on the reactions.  Putting aside the genocidal results of what Hitler and Germany did -- I am not comparing Trump to Hitler in that way -- it does seem that Trump uses his political rallies and twitter in that way. He is testing out ideas, measuring the popular support for idea, probably getting some ideas from the crowd, and seeing what messaging works.

If you're a believer in the value of democracy, our leaders could do worse.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: JoshuaD on September 11, 2019, 05:41:32 PM
I'm a big fan of Leonard Cohen. His 1992 album -- The Future -- is proving to be more and more prophetic as time goes on. Here are some lyrics from his song "Democracy".

Youtube link (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWjRPJdzbC8).
Full lyrics link (https://genius.com/Leonard-cohen-democracy-lyrics).
Quote
It's coming to America first
The cradle of the best and of the worst
It's here they got the range
And the machinery for change
And it's here they got the spiritual thirst
It's here the family's broken
And it's here the lonely say
That the heart has got to open
In a fundamental way
Democracy is coming to the U.S.A

The origin of these verses, as I understand it, is that Cohen heard someone comment "Democracy is coming" soon after the Berlin wall fell.  He got stuck on that idea and came to the conclusion that democracy was coming to the world, but it was going to come to America first, because it hadn't really arrived yet. 

I think he was basically right. The stuff we're seeing with the breakdown of the traditional media, the rise of Obama and then Trump, social media, and all of it seems to be the rise of democracy in a way.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: JoshuaD on September 11, 2019, 05:50:35 PM
Another excerpt from a different song from that album.  Similarly insightful, IMO.

Youtube link (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rH1XTOBF0YQ).

Quote
Things are going to slide, slide in all directions
Won't be nothing
Nothing you can measure anymore
The blizzard, the blizzard of the world
has crossed the threshold
and it has overturned
the order of the soul
When they said repent
I wonder what they meant

There'll be the breaking of the ancient
western code
Your private life will suddenly explode
There'll be phantoms
There'll be fires on the road
and the white man dancing
You'll see a woman
hanging upside down
her features covered by her fallen gown
and all the lousy little poets
coming round
tryin' to sound like Charlie Manson
and the white man dancin'

Give me back the Berlin wall
Give me Stalin and St Paul
Give me Christ
or give me Hiroshima
Destroy another fetus now
We don't like children anyhow
I've seen the future, baby:
it is murder
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: rightleft22 on September 12, 2019, 09:53:06 AM
Quote
It's weird. It's hard to see how to do that while at the same time having some sense of decency and restraint.  Trump's unfiltered approach was pretty key to him being able to power through those attacks.

No one else in american politics would get away with what Trump gets away with. Through out history there has been only a few that carry off some type of narcissistic rhetoric that have people asking for it.

In general they don't end well...
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Seriati on September 12, 2019, 10:31:50 AM
I seriously doubt that.  But what's interesting to me about Trump is how unfiltered he is.  Do you honestly believe that the politicians who you don't hear from have never said anything questionable?  I don't one person - in the whole world - hard left or right, that I've talked to in depth who hasn't said something that's cringeworthy or intolerant.

Sure, there's an error bar. That's fine. This list of naked tweets is probably a lot more informative than whatever news site's 20 paragraph article on Trump or Trump's latest tweets.

My twitter account has been off for a while, but I was following Trump before, you really can't understand just how much he tweets if you don't follow him.  Try it for a week, it's beyond stunning.  You also really can't understand how maliciously what he tweets gets covered in the media if you don't see the raw feed and then the coverage. 

I think you may have missed my point, everyone has beliefs that are repugnant to other people, I'd be willing to be that it's hard to find any two people where they don't have a directly conflicting belief about something that the other would find repugnant.  I can remember two guys I worked with (in my blue collar days), who were the best of friends for years, until the day one of them let us know that he deliberately runs over animals on occasion.  We all found that repugnant and this is in group where everyone but me is a hunter, and we all fish - which means we've engaged in certain cruelities (like cutting worms) for our own ultimate enjoyment, but that was seriously a sick comment.  For most of the group, it pretty much cut our view of the guy and caused us to challenge him on it repeatedly, but for this one guy it was like a death sentence.  He refused to work with on any site ever again and tried to get him fired.
 
That's an obviously loaded example.  But you can see hidden and horribly beliefs anytime you follow a local zoning fight, particularly over low income development, or a NIMBY fight.  Like I said before, the people in my town won't even allow a public pool cause  the un-desirables in the next town (which is heavily of a different race) would come to use it, even though they're hard left "anti-racists" if you look at their social media feeds and hate Trump's "clear" racism.

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But what's interesting to me about Trump is how unfiltered he is.

I don't tend to see this as a virtue. I think it's good that our Presidents have historically been relatively careful with their public speech.

I don't see it as a virtue, I see it in the same way I see Real Politik, it's a despicable practice but it may actually be the only answer.   Only his level of transparency and tweets has let him combat a hostile media with a much larger platform.  Only his absolutely unfiltered approach, repeatedly demonstrated and with repeated gaffes and statements that one would expect to destroy a politician, provides him with protection against the consequences of those gaffes.  By that I mean specifically, Howard Dean destroyed his candidacy for President with a single scream on stage, Trump can openly say things that offend a majority of Americans and continue on. 

It's not that we don't care, it's not that we agree, it's just that its so open and there's so much of it, you can actually see a bigger picture.  When he makes a statement about criminals coming across the Southern Border, you can put that in the context of hundreds of other things he's said on the Southern Border, you can put it in the context that the media deliberately leaves out (e.g., the media claiming he said it about all border crossers, when you can see that he specifically did not, or that he called all brown people animimals when it was a direct statement about MS-13).  And you can see WHY they are misrepresenting it in the context of a policy debate.  The media has for years labelled Republicans as a "racist" or some other blacklisted person and ignored the bigger policy point, but Trump's the first time you see someone fighting back.

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Our level of dialog has dropped off the face of the earth. Between Trump, the news networks, the clickbait news headlines, the advent of social media, and whatever else, things are particularly ugly right now.  I don't put all of that on Trump, but Trump is contributing to it.  We can and should demand better from all of them.

It has dropped.  Ask yourself the last time you saw the left explain a position on a complicated position, that didn't drop down to Trump bad or Republicans are "-ists".
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: ScottF on September 12, 2019, 11:43:43 AM
The media has for years labelled Republicans as a "racist" or some other blacklisted person and ignored the bigger policy point, but Trump's the first time you see someone fighting back.

And he fights back in a way that is hyper-triggering to most of the media. It's so irregular and unprecedented that they can't process form from function on virtually everything he says. So to your point, Seriati, they're incapable of deciphering the tripe he posts (which is voluminous) from truly consequential and impactful things.

I'm certain the reflex from some hearing this would be "he's never posted anything consequential or impactful".
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: D.W. on September 12, 2019, 11:59:00 AM
It's far more simple than that.  We have a national shared image of what is "Presidential".  Or we did until recently.  I don't know if his immediate predecessor being a black man broke that for many or not, but Trump is counter to the imaginary / hypothetical picture we (as a country) have in our head of what a president should be.  How they should speak, how they should be a calming influence when needed.  How they should voice the collective outrage of our nation when required.  How they should embody the very best of us.  They are more than one person, they embody the country they represent FOR us. 

They may fall short at times, but their job, is to represent the nation.   

We complain a lot, A LOT about career diplomats and politicians, but we do have this stereotypical vision in our heads of what that person is. 

Donald Trump does not fit that mold.  Not in any possible way.  Now maybe the desire to break that mold is powerful enough that many enjoy that fact.  For others that factor makes everything he says and does more than just a political / policy disagreement. 

He doesn't even WANT to fit that ideal.  Therefore he is unhinged, broken, maybe mentally ill.  He MUST be a narcissistic sociopath because he refuses to adapt to being "presidential".  Both sides have tolerated presidents who push partisan policy a lot more than the last two presidents, but it seems when something strains our internal template of what a president should look like and how they should act, something in us just... breaks.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Fenring on September 12, 2019, 12:00:12 PM
And he fights back in a way that is hyper-triggering to most of the media. It's so irregular and unprecedented that they can't process form from function on virtually everything he says. So to your point, Seriati, they're incapable of deciphering the tripe he posts (which is voluminous) from truly consequential and impactful things.

Hard to say what they're capable of deciphering when they have a direct interest in not deciphering them; even instructions to that effect.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: D.W. on September 12, 2019, 12:08:07 PM
It's interesting that at this point in history we have both an overwhelming conspiracy of the media to make a sitting president look bad, paired with the most unfiltered president ever.  What a coincidence! 
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: ScottF on September 12, 2019, 12:13:29 PM
Doesn't conspiracy imply secrecy? I don't see anything covert around the media's Trump filter.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: D.W. on September 12, 2019, 12:16:54 PM
In general, ya. 

I don't know if there is an equivalent term for open coordination that has the same slanderous punch.  Collusion also implies secrecy so can't even use that.  Sad!
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Seriati on September 12, 2019, 01:14:06 PM
It's far more simple than that.  We have a national shared image of what is "Presidential".  Or we did until recently.

Do we though?  Look at the media, when you have a President character that's portrayed as the hero of a tale (e.g., The American President, Dave) they're almost almost portrayed as liberal/progressive/Democrat by implication and when they are taking on the nefarious/conspiracy aspect they're almost always portrayed as Republican by implication).

Do you really thing that the characterization of Barack Obama, Bill Clinton, Jimmy Carter, Lyndon Johnson, John F. Kennedy, Harry Truman and Franklin Roosevelt is the same as the characterization of Trump, Bush, Bush, Reagan, Ford, Nixon?

You have to go back to Eisenhower in the 50's before you get to a Republican the media hasn't characterized as addled/incompetent (Trump, Bush Jr., Reagan, Ford), a criminal (Trump, Bush Jr., Reagan, Nixon) or just plain evil (Trump, Bush and Bush, Reagan and Nixon).  Meanwhile, all of Obama, Clinton, Kennedy and Roosevelt have been characterized as close to the second coming (don't know enough about Truman  to say), only Carter has been labeled incompetent, only Clinton a "criminal" and most of the media coverage excused it, and Evil?  Not a one, no matter what they did in foreign or domestic policy.

So with a straight face, tell me you really think we have a single standard of "President" without regard to party, or is this one where there's an idea in your head that actually doesn't match reality?

As far as gravitas, Carter?  Not close to it at the time.  Clinton?  It was okay, but he was the one jogging around in sweats, eating at hamburger joints and talking in a manner to "commonalize" the Presidency, in many ways that was a huge break from the image of the serious President.   

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I don't know if his immediate predecessor being a black man broke that for many or not,...

You "don't know" and yet you thought it worth mentioning?  Just to virtue signal?

Obama is quite literally the most gifted speaker that we've had as a President that I can remember.  That's going to be a tough act for anyone to follow.

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but Trump is counter to the imaginary / hypothetical picture we (as a country) have in our head of what a president should be.  How they should speak, how they should be a calming influence when needed.  How they should voice the collective outrage of our nation when required.  How they should embody the very best of us.  They are more than one person, they embody the country they represent FOR us.

Like the way Kennedy was the "best" of us, when he was openly cheating on his wife?  Or Nixon when he was spying on his opponents?  (oddly, total pass on Obama doing it far more effectively).  Or Ford?  When he was routinely labeled as a bumbler?  Or Carter?  Pretty much the same?  Or Reagan when he was derisively labeled as deep into Alzemiers?  Or Clinton with his serial cheating, sexual abuse and behavior with a certain intern?  Or Bush, the CiA mastermind of evil who lied about raising taxes?  Or Bush the incompetent party boy turned "Hitler" war criminal?

Again, Trump is in fact doing a lot of things that the majority of the country has claimed it wants.  He's actively not ignoring issues like the border, and unfair trade that the politicians have been lying about for decades.  He's signed off on multiple compromises, something his sainted predecessor found impossible because he wouldn't concede anything.

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They may fall short at times, but their job, is to represent the nation.

There job is to lead the nation, sometimes that means being a cheerleader/representative, sometimes it means doing unpopular things that need to be done.  Clinton did that with Welfare Reform, Trump seems to do it a great majority of the time.   

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We complain a lot, A LOT about career diplomats and politicians, but we do have this stereotypical vision in our heads of what that person is.

Convince me that you believe that without regard to party. 

I find it hard to believe that Jerry Nadler, and his petty and mean ways, fit the stereotype, but you rarely see him called out.  Are you as hard on AOC as on Palin?  Does Sanders remotely fit a mold?  Sure there a bunch of politicians that could play a politician on tv, but there a bunch that couldn't as well.

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Donald Trump does not fit that mold.  Not in any possible way.  Now maybe the desire to break that mold is powerful enough that many enjoy that fact.  For others that factor makes everything he says and does more than just a political / policy disagreement. 

He doesn't even WANT to fit that ideal.

I agree with this, he doesn't fit any mold on this.  On the other hand, the "mold conforming politicians" have for decades just lied to us about what they wanted to do and then not done it.  He's not in that mold for sure.

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Therefore he is unhinged, broken, maybe mentally ill.  He MUST be a narcissistic sociopath because he refuses to adapt to being "presidential".

Not clear to me if you're making this as a substantive claim, or as an attribution to others.  It's just wrong as a substantive claim to define doing what you say and carrying out your promises as unhinged, broken and mentally ill.  I don't think there's any question he's a narcissist, nor any question that he's not a sociopath.

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Both sides have tolerated presidents who push partisan policy a lot more than the last two presidents, but it seems when something strains our internal template of what a president should look like and how they should act, something in us just... breaks.

I've said it before, the age of rabid partisan ship can be traced back to the Contract with America.  We had a one party congress (effectively) controlled by the Democrats for over 50 years, when the Republicans took control by promising a serious packet of reforms the Dems had ignored it pushed the Dems out of power.  Once they realized it wasn't a fluke they took to heart the wrong lesson.  They decided that party loyalty was the only thing that mattered, and we've an extreme partisan divide ever since (and if you think it was both parties you're really forgetting the battle between the contractors and the old guard, and later the Tea Party and everyone else, it's a facade for the Dems that's only started to crack since the last election and import of the radical younglings on the left).  Only when one party is in enough control that it's internal differences rise to the top would I expect that to end.

You should remember that before Bush Jr, the last Republican President to have had a Republican Congress was Eisenhower (for 2 years in the early 50's).  Meanwhile, beginning in the 30's Roosevelt had a Democratic Congress for all of his terms, Truman for 6 out of 8 years, Kennedy, Johnson and Carter for their entire term.

Of the more modern guys?  Best Reagan got was a split Congress, Bush Sr - D controlled Congress, Clinton 2 years D controlled, 6 years R controlled, Bush Jr? 6 years R and 2 years D, Obama 2 years D, 6 R; Trump?  2 yrs R, 2 years split.

I think what that has reflected more than anything is that country as a whole has not wanted Congress to push radical democratic policies, and has expected the Courts to constrain Republican abuses.  That's pretty much how it's played out.  How's that going to work if they only Democratic options in the election are to go all in on extreme policies?
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: D.W. on September 12, 2019, 01:51:07 PM
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Do you really thing that the characterization of Barack Obama, Bill Clinton, Jimmy Carter, Lyndon Johnson, John F. Kennedy, Harry Truman and Franklin Roosevelt is the same as the characterization of Trump, Bush, Bush, Reagan, Ford, Nixon?
My whole point was Trump cannot be included there.  But even with him being omitted from the list, you do make a good point.  There is a difference.  It has been amazingly exaggerated with Trump however.  It makes the snipes at Bush Jr. look trivial in comparison. 

Bush Jr. may not have been what a lot of the country wanted in a president, but he seemed to understand what was expected of the office and at least wanted to live up to that standard. 

Pop culture and even the press, when taken as a whole, do treat the parties differently.  I don't argue that.  But both parties (until recently) understood that the office of the president was a position that should be treated with respect.  And filled in a respectful manner. 

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You "don't know" and yet you thought it worth mentioning?  Just to virtue signal?
I cannot KNOW what all people who opposed Obama believe.  I thought it worth mentioning because I believe it explains a lot of what I observed.  The two party system is cause for a lot of friction and it explains a lot about how we treat "the other side's" president when "our side" is out of office.  But it doesn't explain it all. 

There is opposition and even disrespect out of a difference of political beliefs.  Then there's hatred of the president as a person.  I brought it up because there IS a similarity going on here as I see it.  Both the last two presidents we see opposition far beyond simple matters of a disagreement with policy.

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Again, Trump is in fact doing a lot of things that the majority of the country has claimed it wants.  He's actively not ignoring issues like the border, and unfair trade that the politicians have been lying about for decades.  He's signed off on multiple compromises, something his sainted predecessor found impossible because he wouldn't concede anything.
Agreed.  I may be in stark disagreement with HOW he's handling these things, but if he better fit the image of 'someone presidential' instead of someone on the next season of some parody White House reality TV show, I'd probably not find him as repellent as I do. 

But combine that with someone who's 'style' is to sow chaos and bombard with distractions and intentionally outrage people as strategy, and I'm so tied in knots with wanting a return to normalcy that he can do no good in my eyes.  This 'strategy' cannot be rewarded.  We cannot fracture this country for shot term political gains, even if some of those issues did need to be addressed.  HOW we reach national goals is as important as seeing them addressed to me.  Some costs are too high, and I'm not talking about new-found belief by the GOP that the deficit is irreverent.

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We complain a lot, A LOT about career diplomats and politicians, but we do have this stereotypical vision in our heads of what that person is.

Convince me that you believe that without regard to party.
I didn't even get into if I agreed it was a good thing all the time.  I get the desire for spoilers and mold breakers.  I was just commenting that we DO have expectations.  When they are broken it's going to be a binary reaction.  Either it 'was necessary' and is a good thing, or it is entirely repellent to us and is a catastrophic thing.

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I agree with this, he doesn't fit any mold on this.  On the other hand, the "mold conforming politicians" have for decades just lied to us about what they wanted to do and then not done it.  He's not in that mold for sure.
Interesting turn of phrase, without context one would probably infer you were calling him honest.  Well spun.  :)

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Not clear to me if you're making this as a substantive claim, or as an attribution to others.
I was explaining the knee jerk reaction.  There are many sources out there of people looking at this seriously and supporting or refuting these points.  I was just saying that when faced with a mold breaker who is not perusing 'our goals', the rush to judgement will see that 'abnormality' in the worst possible light, first. 

This is why "Trump Derangement Syndrome" is so snappy and sticks around.  I think even many of us on the left know there is some truth to it.  He gets under our skin in ways that a 'normal' GOP President should not.  Policy wise he's not the end of the world/nation.  Dangerous IMO sure, but the perception is just worse.  The only thing that makes me justify that reaction is I believe the perception is having an impact far beyond just politics.  It's impacting the character of our whole country as people attempt to merge his behavior and views, and unfiltered constantly on the offence, always the target from malevolent outside forces, into their own world view.  I see a whole party distort their own talking points and principles falling into a siege mentality where they believe their survival is tied to this man and I fear they are casting a new mold, one distressingly Trump shaped in appearance.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: ScottF on September 12, 2019, 02:06:28 PM
Dangerous IMO sure, but the perception is just worse.

Not sure if you meant it in this context but I like the idea of foreign nations believing that our leadership is potentially dangerous. It can bring people to the table as no statesmanship could.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Fenring on September 12, 2019, 02:14:59 PM
It has been amazingly exaggerated with Trump however.  It makes the snipes at Bush Jr. look trivial in comparison. 

Bush Jr. may not have been what a lot of the country wanted in a president, but he seemed to understand what was expected of the office and at least wanted to live up to that standard.

Do you remember how much of a laughingstock Bush Jr was? The common attribution at the time was that he was embarassing the entire country on a regular basis (is our children learning). I suppose you can argue that Trump is even worse, but at the time people saw Bush Jr as plenty worse already. One thing to remember when comparing them: in 2002 the only people in media relentlessly going after Bush were comedians and talk show hosts during their comedy bits. Major news networks and cable channels weren't quite yet in the business of doing hit pieces as their regular form of business. So when analyzing who's worse remember that the current environment didn't exist when Bush was in office.

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This is why "Trump Derangement Syndrome" is so snappy and sticks around.  I think even many of us on the left know there is some truth to it.  He gets under our skin in ways that a 'normal' GOP President should not.  Policy wise he's not the end of the world/nation.  Dangerous IMO sure, but the perception is just worse.  The only thing that makes me justify that reaction is I believe the perception is having an impact far beyond just politics.  It's impacting the character of our whole country as people attempt to merge his behavior and views, and unfiltered constantly on the offence, always the target from malevolent outside forces, into their own world view.  I see a whole party distort their own talking points and principles falling into a siege mentality where they believe their survival is tied to this man and I fear they are casting a new mold, one distressingly Trump shaped in appearance.

I would be careful to distinguish between what 'people' are taking from Trump versus what they're being told. Imagine for a moment what it would be like if there was no news reporting beyond "there was a storm today" type stuff, and other than that the only conclusions people might draw from the President would be their own. I have no doubt that many people would be upset or irritated by his tweets, and that his manner of speaking would aggravate people as well, but would there be the firestorm that there's been since he's been in office? How much of it is people making their own conclusions, and how much is being fed by interested parties stirring the pot?

I sometimes bring up Magick (with a k), which is used in some circles to denote the type of activity where you actively alter the world by altering people's perceptions of the world. If you can convince someone that the world is a dangerous place then - poof - you have transformed the world into a dangerous place like a wizard (from the perspective of that person). The extent to which perception of reality shapes how we interpret it is determined largely by what sorts of forces are doing the shaping. In a quiet forest a person is likely going to form their own opinion over time based on what they see; in an industrialized area rife with media it will come from all sides and there will be no way to easily parse which ideas came to you from where. Managing perception is a key element in both business and politics, and I'm calling it Magick insofar as the connection between those perceptions and any reality 'in the real world' may often be loose at best. If something is said enough people *will* believe it, and even to the extent that they'll believe it's something they directly observed and came to their own conclusion. So I suppose you can blame Trump (rightly to some extent) for creating a sort of atmosphere, but really that's just a subset of the broader fight over mental narratives. It can be very hard to separate out "he's making us crazy" from "we're being told that he's making us crazy", but these are soooo different. Make a headline like "Trump is now out to get elementary school children" and you'll have people read it and go "Great, now he's after kids," as if that is now reality. We could talk about evidence and verifying what you read until we're blue in the face and it just doesn't matter, because the power of narrative (especially when it feeds an established self-image) or story will defeat nuanced research most of the time. It actually has to, what's why media manipulation is such a problem.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: D.W. on September 12, 2019, 02:32:30 PM
Dangerous IMO sure, but the perception is just worse.

Not sure if you meant it in this context but I like the idea of foreign nations believing that our leadership is potentially dangerous. It can bring people to the table as no statesmanship could.
I've given this one a lot of thought.  If only one could KNOW it was strategy, and not just folly.  But, if you could, the strategy wouldn't work.  Thus far, I'm unimpressed with the results.  It has made for some... interesting 'opportunities' that may never have occurred otherwise.   ::)
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: D.W. on September 12, 2019, 02:43:22 PM
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Do you remember how much of a laughingstock Bush Jr was?
I do.  Maybe I'm wrong.  Maybe the best option is to lash out like a petulent child when attacked as Trump prefers?  I don't recall Bush Jr doing so.  Was his lack of... fight? a misscalculation?
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So when analyzing who's worse remember that the current environment didn't exist when Bush was in office.
Chicken or egg issue here. /shrug

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How much of it is people making their own conclusions, and how much is being fed by interested parties stirring the pot?
Not sure how this could be answered.  I tend to avoid a lot of the 'telling you what to think' type media and go digging for facts.  I know for a fact nobody else in my family is inclined to this.  And I'm sure that if I had someone counter to my political beliefs reviewing my media consumption they could be convinced I'm doing nothing but consuming biased anti-Trump garbage.  And to some extent, I'm sure they'd be correct, just as I believe I do 'better than average' at avoiding just that.  I'm sure we're all terrible judges at determining to what extent our opinions are influenced by others.

Your point about headlines only is a huge one.  This is a big pet peve of mine.  Sensationalist distorting garbage infuriates me.  HOWEVER, I run out of fingers counting the times I've clicked on such links SURE that they were distorting garbage, only to find out, no, he honestly DID say/do what the headline implied.  Maybe they are still guilty of click-bait, but the meat of the issue was actually true.  I think a large part of why I hate him is he's broken my radar on what is satire/parody/or just nutso slander...
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Seriati on September 12, 2019, 02:52:56 PM
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Do you remember how much of a laughingstock Bush Jr was?
I do.  Maybe I'm wrong.  Maybe the best option is to lash out like a petulent child when attacked as Trump prefers?  I don't recall Bush Jr doing so.  Was his lack of... fight? a misscalculation?

And if your only options are to lash out like Trump or let the media (95% hostile and deliberately manipulative) define you?

Bush Jr - to this day - has people believing he was Hitler, and other's only not doing so because "Trump is so much worse," but Cheney of course is still the devil.  Cheney pretty much let the media define him, can you find anyone on the left - anywhere - that'll defend him?  If you've ever accepted the "media version" of a politician left or right, then you've answered your own question about the choices that Trump has.

Trump definitely breaks the satire radar, even I've been caught up on that, which is part of what makes intentional media manipulation about his so effective and believable.

Fen, liked your post above, but not sure why you need to call propaganda Magick.  That's why we have the word propaganda.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Fenring on September 12, 2019, 03:00:09 PM
Maybe the best option is to lash out like a petulent child when attacked as Trump prefers?  I don't recall Bush Jr doing so.  Was his lack of... fight? a misscalculation?

Hard to say, but when it's mostly comedians you don't really have to answer. But maybe more importantly that was before social media made it easy, and now normal, for direct communications to happen on twitter and elsewhere. Even as far as social media goes it's fairly recent that Hollywood celebrities go on Reddit and interact with users on a regular basis, through AMA's or other posts. Schwartzenegger was on just the other day when he posted a pic from an upcoming film, and was basically chatting with folks. That could *never* have happened 15 years ago, when celebrities were only people you saw in films and in interviews. It was only a matter of time before politicians got involved and went directly to the public. Well, I guess FDR did it too in his own way, but not interactively. Now it's becoming normal, and not just for the President. The only thing weird about Trump is how he tweets, not that he does it. So yeah, in the past Presidents, along with many other famous people, did not engage in public interactions other than at sanctioned events (like comicons and whatnot).

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HOWEVER, I run out of fingers counting the times I've clicked on such links SURE that they were distorting garbage, only to find out, no, he honestly DID say/do what the headline implied.  Maybe they are still guilty of click-bait, but the meat of the issue was actually true.  I think a large part of why I hate him is he's broken my radar on what is satire/parody/or just nutso slander...

A lot of times it isn't strictly a true/false issue regarding what someone said, but rather about context, or intended meaning. The most famous case is probably Trump's 'grab 'em by the etc' comment, which is typically quoted correctly (technically) and which surely was a crude comment. However it's not enough that the headline may truthfully report that he said such a thing, when the spin is everything. Did it mean that he feels entitled to do that? Did it mean that he in fact does do that thing? Did it mean that he could if he wanted to, which is a hypothetical statement and not necessarily a reflection on his desires? Or could it mean that celebrity culture is so F-ed up that a famous person could actually do this and get away with it? All of these are plausible reads on what it could have meant, but they paint very different pictures. My biggest problem with the headline thing isn't that it's confusing whether to believe them or not, but much worse - it's generally murky about what subtle reality the headline is trying to get you to accept. It's not just a fact-delivery system, it's a story delivery system. If the story is "Trump cynical about celebrity power" that is worlds apart from "Trump a rapist." And the wording, tone, and style of the headline (and 1st paragraph of the article) will likely feed some specific narrative without actually mentioning any narrative. So you "form your own conclusion" about it even though the conclusion has already been packaged for you and coded into the 'news'. That is hard to see, even if you're looking!
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: D.W. on September 12, 2019, 03:06:14 PM
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And if your only options are to lash out like Trump or let the media (95% hostile and deliberately manipulative) define you?
Are you asking?  Ignore it or address it calmly and refute the outrageous claims and explain your position.  If they continue to portray you unfairly I do genuinely believe you will sway some people to seeing that and potentially even siding with you.

Compare that to the current strategy and the only direction you go is down.  He convinces nobody.  He is fortunate to hold onto as many supporters as he has at any given moment with his 'allies' doing up to the minute calculations on if THIS is the straw that broke the camel's back and they should abandon ship now, or still fear a backlash from HIS supporters should they turn against POTUS.

Interesting with the Bush Jr. being Hitler.  I don't think I've ever encountered that.  Useful idiot meme still persists.  Cheney as a monster?  Ya.  That one I've seen.  But I think a lot of the beef against Jr. was... That descriptor.  Junior.  The same thing that made me instinctively reject Hillary is what made me dislike Jr.  Nepotism/dynastic aspiration.  I got no clue where it came from.  Did something in my grade school social studies stick and make me reject hereditary empires?  I wouldn't have thought so, but the idea of anyone married to a former president or the child of a past president leading the country is awful.  I'd shout "NO" at my computer screen / car radio when someone would suggest Michelle Obama should consider running. 

Now, there is a lot about HRC I disliked besides her last name, but she did have some good qualifications.  I did grudgingly vote for her over Trump but... ick!  Jr. was easier to avoid because I didn't like his politics and wasn't inclined to vote against his opponent.  I start from the belief that cashing in on the name recognition of a past president is a strike against you. 
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: D.W. on September 12, 2019, 03:09:11 PM
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My biggest problem with the headline thing isn't that it's confusing whether to believe them or not, but much worse - it's generally murky about what subtle reality the headline is trying to get you to accept.
That's the example you went with?  Yikes...

We were talking about objective morality in another thread.  :P
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Fenring on September 12, 2019, 03:13:06 PM
Fen, liked your post above, but not sure why you need to call propaganda Magick.  That's why we have the word propaganda.

Good question, there's a specific reason for that. It's because propaganda is, I suppose by definition, always about promoting a message that will advantage some interested party. It's largely social in nature and must be widespread in order to function. So propaganda only works if many people believe it, and in a strict sense is therefore a subset of Magick. The latter is more about individual perception and how that can change attitudes and behavior. It's very useful, for instance, to be able to 'program' oneself or others for helpful reasons in order to promote change. If a person is despairing it can be very good to try to paint a hopeful picture of the world, because if they can accept the positive view they will be able to start interpreting individual events using that lens. If a person is trying to quit smoking it may not enough to just say it's bad for you a lot of the time, so one might choose to engage in the reality-change game to try to have them imagine what it might be like when they quit, or to imagine their kids taking up smoking, or to summon up some other set of imagery whose narrative quality will color their perceptions of what they're doing. So Magick is not strictly about lies, but rather about using the power of narrative and how one views the world in order to change the person's perceptions. We do this everyday when trying to show people our point of view, or convince them they're missing something. It's not just about information, as I think the power of information on people might be lacking much of the time; rather it's about ideas about life and stories about how things work. You want medieval peasants to mind their place, you don't tell them about power structures and the economic system's needs, you tell them a story about how heaven and Earth fit together and their place in this magical diagram. Or maybe you tell them about the divine right of noblity, or the honor of serving your king, or whatever else; anything but technical details about what the actual effects of their compliance will achieve, because that's not how you convince people.

Does that make sense? I use the term Magick playfully a bit because I don't really know of another word that so specifically refers to reality/perception alteration as a basis for behavior modification. I guess you could say that cognitive/behavioral therapy might engage in those types of things to an extent, but then again so does cinema, politics, chatting with your friends, and even looking at imagery on product labels. But it doesn't have to be a state thing or even a widespread thing, and can be confined to a single individual, and for any purpose (good, nefarious, etc). I don't know if I could accept that propaganda could be used to help people, personally, although maybe a realpolitik case could be made there.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Fenring on September 12, 2019, 03:15:57 PM
That's the example you went with?  Yikes...

Hah! I picked it specifically because it's an example that is "so easy" to know what the event is describing, when in reality it's not easy at all. And if the "so easy" one is still murky then good luck with the rest. Your response here sort of proves that!
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: D.W. on September 12, 2019, 03:18:17 PM
I'm shocked you find that one murky is all.   Though Trump the philosopher, discussing the moral decay of celebrity culture, gave me a chuckle.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Fenring on September 12, 2019, 03:41:06 PM
I'm shocked you find that one murky is all.

Based on context and to whom he was speaking, my best read on it was that he was saying "wow isn't it crazy that we could get away with basically anything we like, and women even seem to like it?" It's chauvinistic to be sure, but I didn't understand it to mean either that he actually does this (it's hyperbole) or that he's glad that he can do this. Maybe he is, but I don't think that data is contained in the statement itself. It sounded to me more like boasting about being such a famous man, and that famous men like him can do stuff ordinary mortals can't. That's the version that best accords with his character that I've seen, and is not the interpretation mostly put across by the media. So yeah, I really do think even this "easy" one is hard to parse precisely.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: D.W. on September 12, 2019, 04:19:22 PM
I guess the mistake I think you are making is the assumption that your interpretation is not what outrages (most?) people. 

It doesn't have to be a literal confession of sexual assault to be so outrageous as to have derailed most mere mortal's campaigns.   ::)
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Fenring on September 12, 2019, 04:40:12 PM
I guess the mistake I think you are making is the assumption that your interpretation is not what outrages (most?) people. 

It doesn't have to be a literal confession of sexual assault to be so outrageous as to have derailed most mere mortal's campaigns.   ::)

I dunno, I've literally heard it said umpteen times (online and IRL) that Trump brags about raping women, which then translates to the claim, that I've also heard quite a lot, that he has in fact been a serial rapist. It's akin to the time that he bragged about being able to spin a murder on Madison Ave (or whatever the detail was) into the claim that he's abandoned all rule of law.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: D.W. on September 12, 2019, 04:56:06 PM
Well, I suppose to be fair I do believe he has sexually assaulted young women.  I find that entirely plausible and consistent with his public persona.  Now maybe he hasn't.  It could be he's so pathetic that this type of bragging is his way of compensating for his failing masculinity.

The context we are constantly being told to take into consideration, makes me lean towards the former rather than the latter probability. 

Is it the same as him saying he COULD shoot someone and get away with it?  Without context?  I suppose I could see that.  It could just be another fantasy of an inadequate man.  Hell, he may have enough money that he could have been speaking the literal truth on that one.   A supposition bolsters by my suspicion (I'd say "the fact that", but I'll leave that argument alone for now) he's gotten away with some heinous activities already. 

All that said, he's AFAIK not admitted to criminal assault.  Anyone who views that statement as such is dumb.  It is an indication that he believes he could do so and get away with it, that he may have done so, or that he wishes he had; and that it would make him appear more macho to his perceived audience when making such a statement.  Any of that makes him disgusting.

He most certainly bragged about his means/opportunity/desire to sexually assault women.  Anyone who sees it as an admission of guilt is reaching though.  He is, objectively, without morals when it comes to his treatment of women.  No coordinated media attack needed.  A large part of the country knew he was a cretin and excused it.  Maybe thousands and thousands were cheering as he did so.  :P
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Seriati on September 12, 2019, 05:17:49 PM
It doesn't have to be a literal confession of sexual assault to be so outrageous as to have derailed most mere mortal's campaigns.   ::)

Doesn't it though?  If the statement is, it's terrible that Harvey Weinstein can assault women and get away with it, does that end a mortal's campaign?  If it's pointing out that fame and a casting couch culture go together?

It has to be a literal confession that Trump, not only can do it (which pre-Weinstein was probably a factual truth, and may even still be a truth for a lot of celebrities), but does do it, or believes it's his right to do it.  I think Fen's point is that there's not enough context to demonstrate he does do it, it's in the context of criticizing/bragging about celebrity culture - which almost requires for the context that it's being acknowledged as as exceptional or not right. 

There's no question its bad, and if you look at the transcript, I read it as Trump admitting he kisses women as an opening move (which is bad), but using the example - not because he does it, but because a celebrity could do it.  But it's capable of one than one reading.

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And if your only options are to lash out like Trump or let the media (95% hostile and deliberately manipulative) define you?
Are you asking?  Ignore it or address it calmly and refute the outrageous claims and explain your position.  If they continue to portray you unfairly I do genuinely believe you will sway some people to seeing that and potentially even siding with you.

So if you're options are A or B, go with C?  Inherent in what I was asking is the unstated assertion that what you are suggesting was never going to work.  Cheney didn't respond at all, and was (and still is) painted as some sort of primordial evil.

Bush pretty much did respond as you are suggesting and the media fairly successfully convinced people that he was next to Hitler, and even on untruths ("Bush lied, people died") that grossly mischaracterised fairly complicated events.

Not seeing how what you suggest would do anything other than it always does for Republicans, in other words, get them labelled in the public mind as extrimists, racists, sexists or some other undesirable.  We know it works, Trump is - according to the media - somehow an anti-Semite, despite his Jewish family members and open support for Israel, supporting white nationalism and racist goals by actively creating the lowest African American unemployment rate in history (and the lowest gap between white and black unemployment in history), prison reform and real wage increases, a proven liar (even if a heck of a lot of the "proof" is actually just lies and disagreements); murdering children at the border - largely by trying to actually enforce US law regarding illegal immigration; violating the Rule of Law - by honoring nationwide injunctions that themselves are of questionable legality; colluding with the Russians, despite every single investigation failing to actually show it; obstructing justice - by not firing the special counsel, even though he was absolutely entitled to do so, and talking about it with his advisers.

Heck of lot of effort, virtually all of it successful vis a vis the left, to paint the man as a specific untouchable a lot of which is little more than naked assertions that are contrary to actual reality.

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Interesting with the Bush Jr. being Hitler.  I don't think I've ever encountered that.

Really?  Thought you'd be on this board for a while, you can find it on the old threads.

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I wouldn't have thought so, but the idea of anyone married to a former president or the child of a past president leading the country is awful.  I'd shout "NO" at my computer screen / car radio when someone would suggest Michelle Obama should consider running.

I'm with you on this, I reject the idea that any family really has the two people who are so clearly the best for the job that they both need to be President.  Of course, I think that about most political offices as well (hello to the Kennedy's).

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Now, there is a lot about HRC I disliked besides her last name, but she did have some good qualifications.

I might have voted for her way earlier in the process, but I found how she acted in the Obama admin to be disqualifying.  Honestly, to me, for someone with her background and the amount of baggage she carried the fact of her private servers was absolutely disqualifying.  It confirmed for me everything that I had ever suspected about who she was in the election to represent (herself) and how far she was willing to go to avoid the transparency and oversight that should be part of the soul of a politician in a Republic.  She is not a person that should ever have access to the levers of power.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: D.W. on September 12, 2019, 05:45:58 PM
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It has to be a literal confession that Trump, not only can do it (which pre-Weinstein was probably a factual truth, and may even still be a truth for a lot of celebrities), but does do it, or believes it's his right to do it.  I think Fen's point is that there's not enough context to demonstrate he does do it, it's in the context of criticizing/bragging about celebrity culture - which almost requires for the context that it's being acknowledged as as exceptional or not right.
Thanks I guess to both of you for demonstraiting the thought process that allows some to excuse this.  I didn't ever really understand it before.  That you can convince yourselfs that this was social comentary or criticisim of a sub-culture BY Trump is eye opening.  I had incorrectly assumed this was a head in the sand issue, not one there was a mental "out" available for anyone.  So, thanks for that.

It's the kinda answer I got into heated exchange with Pete way back when the SSM issue was constantly in the news where I got scolded for insisting a line of reasoning was BS / disingeuous.  So I'll just take it at face value.  It makes a lot more sense then the sheer volume of America that would choose to ignore/excuse the behavior.

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So if you're options are A or B, go with C?  Inherent in what I was asking is the unstated assertion that what you are suggesting was never going to work.  Cheney didn't respond at all, and was (and still is) painted as some sort of primordial evil.
Maybe it wouldn't work.  But the retort I would have is, do you gain anything by attempting to fight back?  I would suggest he's only digging the whole deeper and ignoring it would be the better play.  Maybe I'm wrong.  Maybe Bush Jr. and Cheney were wrong.  I suppose you could operate under the theory that "well THAT didn't work, let's try something else!"  /shrug

My grandma use to, on rare ocasion, say something "obviously" racist.  Not with any mallice really but just one of those, "Jesus grandma, you cannot say that!"  99.9% of the time, no issues.  I think Trump does the same thing, maybe a different percentage.  :P  It's not concious.  He just kinda soaks in some awful things and ocasionally lets some of it loose.  Does he hate ALL Jews or African Americans or Mexicans?  No (Well, maybe on the last one...)  But he does say some terrible *censored* that consensus has decided is no longer acceptable (if it ever was in "polite society") 

I get that a lot of people sling the Hitler thing around, but I don't recall Bush Jr. being painted with that brush.  Then again, maybe I just found the comparison stupid and dismissed it.  Possible. 

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Honestly, to me, for someone with her background and the amount of baggage she carried the fact of her private servers was absolutely disqualifying.
  Between that and the DNC leaks coming out, let's just say I was pretty ashamed of the Democratic team last election. 

I still believe that Hillary is the only candidate who could have lost to Trump, and Trump the only candidate who could have lost to Hillary.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Seriati on September 12, 2019, 06:47:24 PM
I agree with a lot of what you said D.W. and appreciate the tone.  To be clear, I don't excuse what Trump said, how he treats/treated women or the implications of his comment, I just found it non-persuasive that he was saying in the context of his personal conduct.  I don't think it would have shocked anyone, if any celebrity - any one at all male or female - had made a statement that celebrities can get away with doing that. 

Heck if you watch any movie about a band you flat our see even worse treatment of groupies and, at least in the Presidential context, there were literal stories of Clinton using his police escorts to bring him women and multiple stories of assaults.  My assumption on those is that a lot of good people who supported him took the mental view that they were lies, rather than a mental view that they in fact occurred and they were okay/excusable or somehow a  cost of doing business to keep him in office.  That didn't seem any more reasonable to me than I suspect Trump's comment seemed to you.

On the second point, I do think you get something by fighting back.  We've had a long time where the media has colluded to paint one party as the good guys and one as the bad guys and it's caused a lot of harm in my view.  By fighting back, Trump's more squarely put that bias in focus and in the open than it's ever been before.  Reasonable people can look at it and call for a plague on both houses, rather than seeing it without question as a wicked person being taken down.  it's something that I think an awful lot of Republicans carried around for a long time, the constant media propaganda that their ideas are evil by implication, and this sort of frees them up to fight back.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: D.W. on September 12, 2019, 07:43:55 PM
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there were literal stories of Clinton using his police escorts to bring him women and multiple stories of assaults.
I don't really care if a president cannot keep it in their pants as long as it's consensual and not assault.  What Trump was describing was assault. 

Arranging to have sex with groupies is unseemly and, unpresidential (at least the being obvious about it part) but it's not assault...  My views on sex is pretty wide open.  My views on being openly disrespectful to your family however is another thing and I do hold that against people.  Another very non-PC of me strike I held against Hillary.  Smacks of victim blaming on my part but letting your husband disrespect you like that irked me.  Accepting it, probably(?) out of political calculation for her own aspirations though makes me shiver a bit. 

That this president cheated on wives with new lovers, and later married one of them, (or was it 2?), I find tacky and a character flaw, but it's probably worth being compared against Bill.  Assault allegations or joking that you are able to (implying you just may have done so) is different.  At least to me.

But if one were inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt (I'm admittedly not) I could see someone coming away with the understanding that because he's rich/famous these women WANT him to do these things.  I heard it as, "I can do this and get away with it."  But I guess (if strain myself to the point of hurting something) I get how someone may take away that he's just describing them as his groupies.   If you see it that way, I guess there would be a double standard with Bill, for the most part, getting a pass.  It's probably a lot more superficial as well.  Bill was portrayed as charming / attractive.  Trump as a buffoon / gross.  That shouldn't matter, but probably did/does, quite a lot.

Granted, I think he would not have been president had a similar tape been released before his election.  Trump's 'brand' was an outrageous egomaniac.  Him saying this 'shocking thing' was... on brand.  It's simply not for anyone else who's perused the highest office before.  If we are fortunate it won't ever happen again. 

Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: D.W. on September 12, 2019, 08:12:05 PM
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If we are fortunate it won't ever happen again.
So... ummm opening comments of the debate tonight, Andrew Yang starts with turning things into a game show.   :o
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Seriati on September 13, 2019, 09:57:37 AM
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there were literal stories of Clinton using his police escorts to bring him women and multiple stories of assaults.
I don't really care if a president cannot keep it in their pants as long as it's consensual and not assault.  What Trump was describing was assault.

I don't understand your response, what Clinton was accused of was actual assault with a real person, what Trump described was at best a hypothetical that you could assume he actually did, and as you describe below you seem to be unaware of a inconsistency in your thoughts:

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Arranging to have sex with groupies is unseemly and, unpresidential (at least the being obvious about it part) but it's not assault...  My views on sex is pretty wide open.

If Rock Star finds a groupie in his dressing room, grabs her by the item and has consensual sex with her, that parses differently from Trump finding a woman in an area where she was seeking him out, grabs her by the item and has consensual sex with her in what way?

If the Rock Star grabs the person by the item and it turns out she was a catererer and not interested is that any less an assault than in Trump had done it?   Don't know if you ever saw Days of Thunder, that kind of situation plays out in that virtually directly and is passed off as a humerous mistake (the main character mistakes his doctor for a hooker and places her hand on his groin).

What if the groupie really did like the Rock Star but hated the way they were treated and only had sex because they were afraid to fight back, or because they believed it would start a relationship?

Why if Bill Clinton is accused of an assault do you respond as if it it were a consensual situation?  It seems to me like it must be for the exact reason I said above, you've decided it's just a lie, the women who it happened too (and it's more than one) really did engage in a consensual activity and just made up the story about it not being consensual afterwards?   At the very least, the stories about how he got into the situations are every bit as one sided and non-consensual as with you believe about Trump.

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That this president cheated on wives with new lovers, and later married one of them, (or was it 2?), I find tacky and a character flaw, but it's probably worth being compared against Bill.  Assault allegations or joking that you are able to (implying you just may have done so) is different.  At least to me.

It's interesting that you conflate Trump's cheating (which is a voluntary activity), with Clinton being accused of assault, and then flip it as if Clinton was just a voluntary cheater and Trump the one with the assaults.  You seem to have a consistent ethic -assualt intolerable, cheating just reprehensible - but to be choosing which facts you give credibility to with a flexible weighting.  Is that because you found the actual women that accused Clinton less credible than a comment that doesn't identify anyone and for which no one stepped up?

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But I guess (if strain myself to the point of hurting something) I get how someone may take away that he's just describing them as his groupies.

I don't even get how that would strain you, the conversation was literally about the topic of how famous people have groupies who let them get away with anything.  The creepy part about Trump's role in it was his seeming belief that all women are groupies.

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If you see it that way, I guess there would be a double standard with Bill, for the most part, getting a pass.  It's probably a lot more superficial as well.  Bill was portrayed as charming / attractive.  Trump as a buffoon / gross.  That shouldn't matter, but probably did/does, quite a lot.

"Portrayed" exactly.  That matters a lot.  And who is it exactly who's potraying them?  Oh yeah the media that Trump should not fight back against.

I don't even think it's a double standard.  The objective facts on the table are much worse for Clinton.  You have multiple cases where we have identified people - that no one believes at all were not engaged in a sexual act with Clinton - and where one says consensual and the other not.  Do you have anyone where that's true for Trump?  You have pornstars that want to talk about their consensual relationships with Trump, which is totally creepy but an actual reality.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: D.W. on September 13, 2019, 10:32:25 AM
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and as you describe below you seem to be unaware of a inconsistency in your thoughts
More accurate to say that I'm not as familiar with the assault allegations.  Which, I suppose proves some points about the omnipresence of negative news against Trump in comparison.

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If Rock Star finds a groupie in his dressing room, grabs her by the item and has consensual sex with her, that parses differently from Trump finding a woman in an area where she was seeking him out, grabs her by the item and has consensual sex with her in what way?
Yes

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What if the groupie really did like the Rock Star but hated the way they were treated and only had sex because they were afraid to fight back, or because they believed it would start a relationship?
"Fight back" implies a lot.  It could range from standing up for themselves to physically fending off sexual assault...  Cannot answer that part.  As to the last part.  That's consensual.  Unless you want to dive down a rabbit hole of delusional behavior somehow nullifying consent?  None of this tact makes much sense to me as it relates to this discussion.

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Why if Bill Clinton is accused of an assault do you respond as if it it were a consensual situation?
Again, deflection because I don't recall the specifics of those.  I wasn't watching the soap opera that was politics as closely then.  Also... it wasn't him on tape talking about it. 

I do assume they both (Bill/Trump) exploit their fame / power to have sex with people (other than their wives).  Did they cross lines?  Seems plausible.  Assault?  IDK, maybe they are above the law and can disappear these problems effectively.

I'm not giving Bill a pass and assuming it's all lies against him.  I just didn't follow his alleged misdeeds as closely as I do Trump's.  I've also said I don't think Trump's statement was a confession of actual rape, only that what he described in a manner that (to me) seemed to indicate he thought it was pretty awesome, that he was able to.  And doing so in a manner that heavily implied he knows this because he's done it before, and possibly often.  HE said that.  Not someone claiming he said it, or did it.  That is a big distinction to me. 

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The creepy part about Trump's role in it was his seeming belief that all women are groupies.
Bingo.  A groupie is someone who wants to get close to their idol / powerful target for affection or attention.  You don't see how it changes things when one assumes ALL these women he comes into contact with want him to do these things?  That assuming consent or entitlement is dangerous and disgusting? 

I'm not about to dive into defending Bill's sexual history.  Maybe I should read back on the assault allegations against him.  Granted, he's no longer president...  And I think his wife's aspirations in that regard have been sufficiently derailed that he can be relegated to the history books.  Unless scandals / charges sweep him back into the spotlight...
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Fenring on September 13, 2019, 11:25:17 AM
As Seriati mentioned, I wasn't brushing off Trump's comment or defending it, but rather trying to avoid my interpretation of what it literally means being clouded by what would be easy to believe about someone like Trump. What I mentioned above is how I understood his comment from the first, to the point where when people began saying he was admitting to rape my first reaction was "huh?" and my second was to roll my eyes. That's basically the way all of his comments go through the public interpreter. It's not enough that he's a creep, but people have to make him into the literal devil on top of it.

But I'll play devil's advocate for just a moment, despite the chuckle you got from "philosopher Trump": suppose he really did admit that women will let him do anything, and that he does like it, and that he *has* done it - what can we gather from that? Sure, we can say bad things about him. But assuming for the moment he's neither falsely bragging nor whitewashing the circumstances he's referring to, the point of his comment would seem to imply not that women are too afraid to call rape on him, but rather that a person such as him in a position of fame and power can actually acquire a kind of uniquitous consent for the craziest things, like a rock star. There was a time in America where the answer to that would have been "well of course he likes that, but what is wrong with those women??" We've nevertheless entered an age where questioning from that angle is seen as victim blaming, which sort of presupposes they're victims at all (a circular argument). But taking his comment at face value and assuming his statement is accurate, he would seem to be saying that, as a guy who likes having his way with women (like JFK, and like many, many men regardless of whether they'd admit it or not) it's lucky for him that he's in a position where they're into it. And if you don't like it coming from a guy who looks like him, imagine instead it was Johnny Depp or something saying that his celebrity lets him have his way with the ladies. Although it's a bit gauche to say it out loud, isn't that sort of an obvious statement once we recognize that America has a weird obsession with celebrity? So while his statement may not have been philosophical, we can imagine it unintentionally having such a message, that Americans have a weird [sexual] fixation on famous people. Well if that's true there's no point blaming Trump for it. I mean, we can blame him for not being mature enough to avoid going along with all that, but then I think he would be no worse than a great many celebrities who just don't talk about it. And so we fall back into him being unfiltered as his main attribute.

Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: D.W. on September 13, 2019, 05:53:02 PM
All good points.  Probably just part of me being angry a trashy celebrity was elected over politicians who try not to act like that in public. 
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Wayward Son on September 18, 2019, 10:48:26 AM
Donald Trump@realDonaldTrump: (https://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/trumps-fake-diplomacy-and-fake-news/)

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The Fake News is saying that I am willing to meet with Iran, “No Conditions.” That is an incorrect statement (as usual!).

Donald Trump, talking with Chuck Todd on Meet the Press:

President Trump: “You [Iran] want to talk? Good.”

Chuck Todd: “No preconditions?”

President Trump: “Not as far as I’m concerned. No preconditions.”

At a joint press conference with Italian Prime Minister Conte:

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PRESIDENT TRUMP: I would certainly meet with Iran if they wanted to meet.  I don’t know that they’re ready yet.  They’re having a hard time right now.

But I ended the Iran deal; it was a ridiculous deal.  I do believe that they will probably end up wanting to meet, and I’m ready to meet any time they want to.  And I don’t do that from strength or from weakness.  I think it’s an appropriate thing to do.  If we could work something out that’s meaningful, not the waste of paper that the other deal was, I would certainly be willing to meet.

Q:    Do you have preconditions for that meeting?

PRESIDENT TRUMP:  No preconditions.  No.  If they want to meet, I’ll meet.  Anytime they want.  Anytime they want.  It’s good for the country, good for them, good for us, and good for the world.  No preconditions.  If they want to meet, I’ll meet.

So who you gonna believe?  The lying Fake News media, or President Trump? ;)
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Seriati on September 18, 2019, 11:25:59 AM
I don't know Wayward, why don't you tell us when each statement was made, last I checked I thought he met with Conte more than a year ago and it may have been true then he didn't have preconditions.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: D.W. on September 18, 2019, 11:42:43 AM
I can't keep up.  Is that a lie, a misstatement, fake news, flip-flop or evolving position or just a witch hunt?

So many options.  Maybe all of the above?  This new quantum-stuff makes forming opinions about reality a dicey proposition. 
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Seriati on September 18, 2019, 11:58:27 AM
I don't know maybe one would reasonably consider that there's been a change of facts after Iran's attacked international shipping, restarted their nuke program, threatened everyone, increased support of rebels throughout the region, and quite possibly staged or supported a major attack on Saudi Arabia's oil facilities.

I mean it could just be me that thinks any or all of the above might have caused a reasonable person (let alone Trump) to change on a prior position of no preconditions. 

Or to wonder why exactly the story seems to be about a gotcha rather than something of substance?
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: scifibum on September 18, 2019, 01:54:39 PM
Trump's attacks on the media seem credible to people like you, so when he lies about the fakeness of news it's important to point that out. How about you quit making excuses for his lies? If his position changed he can fit that in a damn tweet.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Seriati on September 18, 2019, 02:21:12 PM
Okay, so hard to piece together a timeline, cause it's hard to find the news that was in play when Trump issued his tweet, as opposed to the spin after, but this piece from the NYTs at least has a context and a timeline.  https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/16/world/middleeast/trump-iran.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/16/world/middleeast/trump-iran.html)

So based on the timeline, last week Trump was considering meeting with Rouhani on the sideline of the UN summit, but on Sunday the administration made clear that Iranian "actions" (i.e., drone attacks on Saudi oil fields on Saturday) had jeopardized any potential for discussion.  The Trump tweet came later on Sunday, presumably (but I can't verify) in response to reports either saying he was willing to meet without "preconditions" or implying he was walking back that commitment.  Trump, interestingly tweeted about "conditions" rather than "preconditions" but I'm not sure there's a significant parse there, other than in the Hillary Clinton fully excused on technicalities way.  I think more significant is that Trump used the present tense (I am) to describe his unwillingness to meet, which seems a direct response to a claim that he was still willing to do so.

In any event, absolutely true that in the past he said he was willing to do so, and prior to the oil field attacks administration officials had affirmed that.  So, seems pretty clear, that you're ignoring the intervening act ON SATURDAY to claim foul on a current statement on Sunday, but hey, you're right I'm just "making excuses" for "lies" and not, you know demonstrating that reality and your world view don't align.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: D.W. on September 18, 2019, 02:43:37 PM
Presidents are allowed to change their mind.  They are allowed to react to new events.  I'm getting sick of both sides trying to score points by illustrating when this happens as if it's some horrible sin.

Attack the new position if you want.  Hell you can even question the sincerity of the original claim if you want.  Crying foul when it happens seems pretty ridiculous to me.

Trump lies with damn near every breath.  You don't need to redefine what a lie is in order to trip him up on one.   ::)
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDrake on September 18, 2019, 02:45:00 PM
This is why professional diplomats justify a shift. He might have said "Previously, I was willing to meet them without preconditions. Now that they have taken an aggressive provocative action, I would have some conditions for them to meet."

As opposed to "NO PRECONDITIONS!" followed by "I don't intend to meet with them". It's a discontinuity that leaves the press and the public in a situation where everyone has to speculate.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDrake on September 18, 2019, 02:47:09 PM
Oh, and by the way, a professional diplomat would spell out exactly what those conditions are.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Fenring on September 18, 2019, 02:56:46 PM
I don't know if this is relevant, but in both of the quotes provided in OP about "preconditions" Trump mentioned that he would meet without preconditions, but in the Tweet that is supposedly a lie he said it was untrue that he would meet with no conditions. Is it possible there's a difference between preconditions (e.g. you do X or we don't talk) versus conditions (when we talk X, Y, and Z will have to be in effect)? Maybe this is just an accident of how he spelled the word this time. But if I were being careful about my wording, a precondition would entail what it will cost you to get me to talk, whereas a condition would entail what measures will be in place when we talk. Examples of "conditions" could be security measures of various sorts, no recordings or media, etc; but those would not be preconditions.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDrake on September 18, 2019, 02:58:40 PM
And again, we'd know if he fing spelled it out. "We won't meet with Iran until they do X" or "We won't meet with Iran unless they agree to Y".
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Fenring on September 18, 2019, 03:00:22 PM
And again, we'd know if he fing spelled it out. "We won't meet with Iran until they do X" or "We won't meet with Iran unless they agree to Y".

Well, in the quotes above he *did* spell out the answer to those particular questions, which is that he'd meet with them anytime they wanted. He *did not*, however, specify what the conditions would be like while meeting, and maybe that's what he's addressing in the Tweet? That the media are suggesting he'd let them have such a meeting in any setup they want?
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDrake on September 18, 2019, 03:23:55 PM
The onus is on the Administration to clarify.

Allow me to demonstrate how it is normally done.

Quote
Israel, the United States and the European Union classify Hamas as a terrorist organization. They have set three conditions for dealing with Hamas, saying it must renounce all violence, recognize Israel’s right to exist and accept all previous Israeli-Palestinian agreements. Hamas has so far refused to comply.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Fenring on September 18, 2019, 03:37:40 PM
The onus is on the Administration to clarify.

I haven't followed this story so I literally only know what was posted in this thread about it. Do you have more information about what they have or haven't clarified? Based *solely* on OP it seems to me that Trump clarified quite clearly under what preconditions he would meet (i.e. "anytime they want"), but didn't specify what the conditions would be, because - well how could you? That sort of thing can't actually be set until both sides talk about what they'd like the conditions to be.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Seriati on September 18, 2019, 03:40:28 PM
If the criticism of Trump on this was that he's flipped his policy, or that he's criticizing the press unfairly when he's announcing a new policy, you might have a point.  But the criticism is of a "gotcha" caught in a lie.  I find that one harder to agree with.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDrake on September 18, 2019, 03:55:37 PM
I can't read the Times article, I'm not giving them money until they fix some problems.

Quote
WASHINGTON – President Donald Trump is denying he previously offered to meet Iranian leaders without preconditions, despite a litany of instances in which he did just that.

Trump’s remarks come as tensions mount in the Middle East following an attack over the weekend on Saudi Arabian oil facilities. Though it is unclear who is responsible, U.S. officials are looking to Iran. The attack has scuttled talk that Trump and Iranian President Hassan Rouhani could meet in New York next week at the United Nations.

“The Fake News is saying that I am willing to meet with Iran, ‘No Conditions.’ That is an incorrect statement (as usual!),” Trump posted on Twitter on Sunday.


Usa today - and others are similar.

He was claiming he never offered to meet without preconditions, and he clearly did. This isn't about changing his mind later, its about him trying to shove his previous statements down the memory hole.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: rightleft22 on September 18, 2019, 04:01:45 PM
A key to Trump success is in his ability refrain history. 
There is no obligation to be honest. Statements are open ended. What matters is what I say now, no now, no now....

Its possible he has the memory of a fish, but more likely intentional. He really does not care about what he said in the past.  Its not relevant.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Seriati on September 18, 2019, 05:21:05 PM
TheDrake, can you point to where in the tweet (or do you have an additional source) that he says "he never offered"?  I don't count media gloss as factual statements.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDrake on September 18, 2019, 06:09:14 PM
You remind me of Clinton parsing the definition of is.

Quote
“It depends on what the meaning of the word ‘is’ is. If the—if he—if ‘is’ means is and never has been, that is not—that is one thing. If it means there is none, that was a completely true statement. … Now, if someone had asked me on that day, are you having any kind of sexual relations with Ms. Lewinsky, that is, asked me a question in the present tense, I would have said no. And it would have been completely true.”
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Wayward Son on September 18, 2019, 06:19:33 PM
My main criticism is his first few words: "The Fake News is saying..."  It's fine for him to change is mind; it is not fine for him to pretend he never said it and then accuse the media of lying about it.

Remember this every time he talks about "fake news."
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Seriati on September 19, 2019, 09:31:06 AM
I remind you of that?  Lol.  I'll make it even more simple, where in the tweet did Trump "deny he previously offered"? 

It's pretty obvious to me that they (and you) are reading more into that tweet than is there and making assumptions about it in the write up.  There's legit criticisms to be had, I even flagged a few for you, but the inability to even acknowledge that the media seems to be overreading their source troubles me.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Wayward Son on September 19, 2019, 12:03:07 PM
I remind you of that?  Lol.  I'll make it even more simple, where in the tweet did Trump "deny he previously offered"? 

It's pretty obvious to me that they (and you) are reading more into that tweet than is there and making assumptions about it in the write up.  There's legit criticisms to be had, I even flagged a few for you, but the inability to even acknowledge that the media seems to be overreading their source troubles me.

He didn't need to "deny he previously offered."  He simply said that him making the offer was fake news, period.  IOW, he denied ever making the offer.

Five days before this tweet, Mike Pompeo and Steve Mnuchin said he would meet with "no preconditions."

The only excuse I can see is if he changed his mind.  But before this tweet, when did he withdraw his offer to meet without conditions?  Does he believe the media can read his mind?  ::)

What disturbs me is how Trump encourages his followers to doubt everything the media reports about him, blames the media for his own mistakes, and tries to hide his mistakes and crimes by casting all reports about them as "fake news."

Not to mention how some people try to find any excuse to justify and try to make "reasonable" this man's claims.  Apologetics should be left to those crazy creationists. :)
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Seriati on September 19, 2019, 12:14:57 PM
I don't know, when did he?  Did you see the media query on whether the tweet meant he had withdrawn his prior offer?  I sure didn't.

Again though, meet the challenge, show where the "gloss" in the media report is supported from the statements in the tweet (we already know if you guys could you would have already and not devolved into the standard ad hominem arguments that are your go to's these days).  I already pointed out the tweet was on Sunday after a major event on Saturday that scuttled an attempt at arranging a meeting (an actual actual that demonstrates there may be a a change in plan - or did you miss that).  I have no idea what was being said on Sunday - but I put some speculation above - to which he was responding.

In any event, you're going a heck of a long way to ignore the timeline (and I acknowledged the statements from his administration) to justify and try to make "reasonable" the media's overstatement.  Why is that? 
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDrake on September 19, 2019, 12:40:39 PM
It's up to him to draw that distinction, either in advance or in response to those reports. Can you show that to me? This is after not only he, but many administration officials made set the baseline. It seems you automatically default to the most rosy interpretation of any ambiguity in favor of the administration.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDeamon on September 19, 2019, 02:26:55 PM
I'm shocked you find that one murky is all.

Based on context and to whom he was speaking, my best read on it was that he was saying "wow isn't it crazy that we could get away with basically anything we like, and women even seem to like it?" It's chauvinistic to be sure, but I didn't understand it to mean either that he actually does this (it's hyperbole) or that he's glad that he can do this. Maybe he is, but I don't think that data is contained in the statement itself. It sounded to me more like boasting about being such a famous man, and that famous men like him can do stuff ordinary mortals can't. That's the version that best accords with his character that I've seen, and is not the interpretation mostly put across by the media. So yeah, I really do think even this "easy" one is hard to parse precisely.

I guess the mistake I think you are making is the assumption that your interpretation is not what outrages (most?) people. 

It doesn't have to be a literal confession of sexual assault to be so outrageous as to have derailed most mere mortal's campaigns.   ::)

You're also making the mistake of ignoring the matter that Trump said that "pre-Weinstein" and with the full knowledge that he had spent decades moving in various "power circles" where he likely knew a number of men who probably bragged about doing essentially exactly what he described, and possibly even named which women they did it to. It's also likely he'd also heard the other end of things from some of the women who had to deal with those activities as well.

The "casting couch" meme also predates internet memes in general by a large margin. To pretend that Trump in particular would have been oblivious to such things, and how it was being applied is to be more than a bit naive I'd think. And with Trump being Donald Trump, with his being aware of such things. You can expect there's probably going to be a context where he's going to be likely to bring it up as something that is within the bounds of possible for him to pull off, even if he has never made the attempt. Such as the "shoot a mad in broad daylight" in full public view and get away with it.

Unless you think that statement was also a confession on his part to having actually shot somebody in NYC at some time in the past.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDeamon on September 19, 2019, 02:39:39 PM
I get that a lot of people sling the Hitler thing around, but I don't recall Bush Jr. being painted with that brush.  Then again, maybe I just found the comparison stupid and dismissed it.  Possible.

He started being actively compared to Hitler by the end of 2002 as I recall. The Hitler comparisons were largely in relation to the buildup towards, and subsequent execution of, Operation Iraqi Freedom. By the time you get into 2003 and the start of OIF, the comparisons to Hitler came frequently and often. Google searches for the 2002-2004 time frame should find you plenty of news articles and blogs alike that will make the comparison for you.

I'm pretty sure the Ornery archives will also offer you forum goers making commentary about such comparisons during that same time frame. As I recall, once the comparisons started, they never actually went away, so you should be able to pull up allusions to Bush as Hitler well into the Obama Presidency for that matter.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDeamon on September 19, 2019, 02:45:41 PM
Granted, I think he would not have been president had a similar tape been released before his election.  Trump's 'brand' was an outrageous egomaniac.  Him saying this 'shocking thing' was... on brand.  It's simply not for anyone else who's perused the highest office before.  If we are fortunate it won't ever happen again.

I'm generally viewing Trump as "the Andrew Jackson of the 21st Century" and calling it a day from there. Hopefully things follow the same track in the aftermath of his presidency as happened in response to Jackson's. (Specifically the introduction of a lot more checks on Executive Powers)
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDrake on September 19, 2019, 02:48:36 PM
Consider the limit as t->infinity, where t is the length of time that a given politician has been publicly known. The probability that they will be compared to Hitler approaches 1 on an exponential curve.

Why Republicans are obsessed with comparing Obama to Hitler (https://theweek.com/articles/568774/why-republicans-are-obsessed-comparing-obama-hitler)

Most rational people avoid comparing other people to Hitler.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDeamon on September 19, 2019, 02:58:26 PM
the point of his comment would seem to imply not that women are too afraid to call rape on him, but rather that a person such as him in a position of fame and power can actually acquire a kind of uniquitous consent for the craziest things, like a rock star. There was a time in America where the answer to that would have been "well of course he likes that, but what is wrong with those women??" We've nevertheless entered an age where questioning from that angle is seen as victim blaming, which sort of presupposes they're victims at all (a circular argument). But taking his comment at face value and assuming his statement is accurate, he would seem to be saying that, as a guy who likes having his way with women (like JFK, and like many, many men regardless of whether they'd admit it or not) it's lucky for him that he's in a position where they're into it. And if you don't like it coming from a guy who looks like him, imagine instead it was Johnny Depp or something saying that his celebrity lets him have his way with the ladies. Although it's a bit gauche to say it out loud, isn't that sort of an obvious statement once we recognize that America has a weird obsession with celebrity? So while his statement may not have been philosophical, we can imagine it unintentionally having such a message, that Americans have a weird [sexual] fixation on famous people. Well if that's true there's no point blaming Trump for it. I mean, we can blame him for not being mature enough to avoid going along with all that, but then I think he would be no worse than a great many celebrities who just don't talk about it. And so we fall back into him being unfiltered as his main attribute.

I've heard more than a few women over the years outright say they'd let Johnny Depp "have his way" with them. So it wouldn't stretch credibility for him to claim such a thing, but in the era of #metoo he never will do so, nor would any other "A lister" out there. It isn't just Depp that enjoys such status either. Of course, there is naturally a difference between the fantasy and the reality.

But it take two to tango in such scenarios, and anybody who claims there are not any woman out there who would be receptive to such treatment, and even seek it out, from the "right guy" are out of their minds.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDeamon on September 19, 2019, 03:02:19 PM
I can't keep up.  Is that a lie, a misstatement, fake news, flip-flop or evolving position or just a witch hunt?

Well, if we could get a time frame for those quotes WS gave, that would help immensely.

He may have been open to talks "without conditions" regarding a Nuclear deal a year ago.

But a lot has changed in just the last few months. "Mysterious" attacks on shipping near Iran, a US drone getting shot down, an attack on Saudi Arabia that appears to have at least had support from Iran if not outright perpetrated by Iran...

I'd say the position has probably "evolved" since a year ago.

Now if those quotes were from last week instead..
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDeamon on September 19, 2019, 03:17:32 PM
Consider the limit as t->infinity, where t is the length of time that a given politician has been publicly known. The probability that they will be compared to Hitler approaches 1 on an exponential curve.

Why Republicans are obsessed with comparing Obama to Hitler (https://theweek.com/articles/568774/why-republicans-are-obsessed-comparing-obama-hitler)

Most rational people avoid comparing other people to Hitler.

The Obama Comparisons to Hitler actually were more correct in just about every meaningful way.

Both were highly charismatic.
Both were highly gifted speakers.
Both were highly regarded in both academic and media circles at the height of their power.
Both made significant and lasting changes to their nations.

Bush Jr wasn't viewed as being very charismatic. (Neither is Trump)
Jr wasn't viewed as being a gifted speaker. (Trump's a bit more of a mixed bag, but his gaffes are legion)
Jr and Trump alike are actively sneered at and even derided by the popular media and academia alike.
The extent of the changes Jr and Trump are likely to impart on the Nation are arguable.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: NobleHunter on September 19, 2019, 03:37:35 PM
At the height of his power, regarding Hitler highly was a strategy to avoid being killed or sent to the camps.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDrake on September 19, 2019, 05:42:17 PM
Consider the limit as t->infinity, where t is the length of time that a given politician has been publicly known. The probability that they will be compared to Hitler approaches 1 on an exponential curve.

Why Republicans are obsessed with comparing Obama to Hitler (https://theweek.com/articles/568774/why-republicans-are-obsessed-comparing-obama-hitler)

Most rational people avoid comparing other people to Hitler.

The Obama Comparisons to Hitler actually were more correct in just about every meaningful way.

Both were highly charismatic.
Both were highly gifted speakers.
Both were highly regarded in both academic and media circles at the height of their power.
Both made significant and lasting changes to their nations.

Bush Jr wasn't viewed as being very charismatic. (Neither is Trump)
Jr wasn't viewed as being a gifted speaker. (Trump's a bit more of a mixed bag, but his gaffes are legion)
Jr and Trump alike are actively sneered at and even derided by the popular media and academia alike.
The extent of the changes Jr and Trump are likely to impart on the Nation are arguable.

By that stroke of Genius, Nelson Mandela is a lot like Hitler. Nobody making comparisons to Hitler is evaluating someone's skill at oration. Although, as I said (https://www.scribd.com/document/341358197/Hitler-vs-Mandela)

Disagree? Next time someone gives a great rousing speech, walk up to them and tell them they put Hitler to shame.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Wayward Son on September 24, 2019, 03:41:04 PM
I can't keep up.  Is that a lie, a misstatement, fake news, flip-flop or evolving position or just a witch hunt?

Well, if we could get a time frame for those quotes WS gave, that would help immensely.

He may have been open to talks "without conditions" regarding a Nuclear deal a year ago.

But a lot has changed in just the last few months. "Mysterious" attacks on shipping near Iran, a US drone getting shot down, an attack on Saudi Arabia that appears to have at least had support from Iran if not outright perpetrated by Iran...

I'd say the position has probably "evolved" since a year ago.

Now if those quotes were from last week instead..

You can find when those quotes were made with a five minute internet search.  Probably three minute.  Aren't you curious? ;)

Besides, I already mentioned Pompeo and Mnuchin saying he would meet with "no preconditions" five days before the tweet.  That's less than a week.

As I said before, it's OK for his position to change.  But he doesn't admit it, does he?  No, it's "fake news" that he ever wanted to meet.  We have always been at war with Eastasia...
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Wayward Son on September 24, 2019, 04:00:54 PM
I don't know, when did he?  Did you see the media query on whether the tweet meant he had withdrawn his prior offer?  I sure didn't.

Let's review the tweet again:

"The Fake News is saying that I am willing to meet with Iran, “No Conditions.” That is an incorrect statement (as usual!)."

Not much chance for confusion, is there?  "I am willing to meet with Iran, "No Conditions"...is an incorrect statement..." 

Quote
Again though, meet the challenge, show where the "gloss" in the media report is supported from the statements in the tweet (we already know if you guys could you would have already and not devolved into the standard ad hominem arguments that are your go to's these days).  I already pointed out the tweet was on Sunday after a major event on Saturday that scuttled an attempt at arranging a meeting (an actual actual that demonstrates there may be a a change in plan - or did you miss that).  I have no idea what was being said on Sunday - but I put some speculation above - to which he was responding.

In any event, you're going a heck of a long way to ignore the timeline (and I acknowledged the statements from his administration) to justify and try to make "reasonable" the media's overstatement.  Why is that?

What "overstatement" are you talking about?  What "gloss?" 

Trump said that "The Fake News media is saying that I am willing to meet with Iran, "No Conditions.""  That is a true statement, because that is exactly what he had been consistently saying over the past few months.

He then continues, "That is an incorrect statement (as usual!)."  When did he tell "The Fake News media" it was untrue?  Oooh, that's right, in the previous sentence!

But "as usual," they were reporting an incorrect statement. Because he just told them he changed his mind a second ago!  ::)

Any parsing of his statement shows that he blames the "Fake News media" for incorrectly reporting that he said that he would meet with Iran with no preconditions, as usual.  He wants you to believe that he never said it.  He thinks his supporters are that stupid.

No gloss.  No overstatement.  Just facts, which Trump conveniently ignores when it suits him.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Seriati on September 24, 2019, 05:10:49 PM
So you're doubling down on the last time Trump said no commitments was 6 months or a year earlier?  That said meeting was being scheduled earlier in the week and members of his admin said the same thing ealier in the week.

Then IRAN BLEW UP SAUDI OIL REFINERIES and said meeting was cancelled.

At that point you don't think a reasonable reporter would infer that Trump appears to no longer be willing to meet without pre-conditions based on a change of circumstances?  What exactly were they saying before Trump's tweet?  Did you go look?  Were they saying Trump was lying because he apparently had pre-conditions, or criticizing because he was "willing to meet without them after these atrocities"?  What was he reacting to?
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDrake on September 24, 2019, 06:15:05 PM
Everything you say could be true. Then why isn't Trump saying that, even now? Why isn't he saying: I WAS willing to meet with them but we're taking a step back in light of the recent attacks on our ally Saudi Arabia?

Other administrations would get out in front of it and never have to defend themselves by both acknowledging and revoking the offer to meet.

It's inkblot diplomacy, where everyone gets to see what they want to see.

If you don't like what people are seeing, draw a clear picture.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Grant on September 24, 2019, 08:19:05 PM
4-8-18

A MESSAGE FROM DONALD J TRUMP, REPUBLICAN CANDIDATE FOR THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES

Nobody beats me on National Security.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Grant on September 24, 2019, 08:23:02 PM
1-30-19

A MESSAGE FROM THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES

The Intelligence people seem to be extremely passive and naive when it comes to the dangers of Iran. They are wrong! When I became President Iran was making trouble all over the Middle East, and beyond. Since ending the terrible Iran Nuclear Deal, they are MUCH different, but a source of potential danger and conflict. They are testing Rockets (last week) and more, and are coming very close to the edge. There economy is now crashing, which is the only thing holding them back. Be careful of Iran. Perhaps Intelligence should go back to school!
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Wayward Son on September 25, 2019, 04:22:53 PM
So you're doubling down on the last time Trump said no commitments was 6 months or a year earlier?  That said meeting was being scheduled earlier in the week and members of his admin said the same thing ealier in the week.

As I said to TheDeamon, maybe you should check the dates yourself.

Yes, the news conference with the Italian Prime Minister was over a year ago, July 30, 2018.

But Trump's interview with Chuck Todd was a mere 12 weeks earlier on June 23, 2019--3 months.  Mike Pence said the same thing that day to Jake Tapper.

And, yes, after that, (http://suriyus.blogspot.com/2019/09/fact-check-trump-blasts-media-for.html) White House Deputy Press Secretary Hogan Gidley said on Fox News that he would meet without pre-conditions on August 28, 2019.  And Mnuchin and Pompeo said so again on September 10, 2019.

Quote
Then IRAN BLEW UP SAUDI OIL REFINERIES and said meeting was cancelled.

At that point you don't think a reasonable reporter would infer that Trump appears to no longer be willing to meet without pre-conditions based on a change of circumstances?  What exactly were they saying before Trump's tweet?  Did you go look?  Were they saying Trump was lying because he apparently had pre-conditions, or criticizing because he was "willing to meet without them after these atrocities"?  What was he reacting to?

Frankly, I don't know where to look to see what Trump was looking at and reacting to.  Does anyone?  What makes you think there necessarily was such a report? ;)

And it still does not excuse him from blaming the "fake news" media that he said he would meet with Iran without conditions.  Because he said it.  Repeatedly.  So did his staff.  Repeatedly.  Days before he changed his mind.

He could have corrected them.  But, no, he assumed (as apparently you do) that they should read his mind.  "Infer" that he changed it.  After all, why should the President actually have to state what is on his mind.  We apparently should all know what he is thinking before he says it, or it's "fake news!"  ::)

Would you have stood for this behavior from Obama?  If not, why do you stand for it from Trump?
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Wayward Son on September 27, 2019, 03:11:54 PM
President Donald Trump:

"To show you how dishonest the LameStream Media is, I used the word Liddle’, not Liddle, in discribing Corrupt Congressman Liddle’ Adam Schiff. Low ratings @CNN purposely took the hyphen out and said I spelled the word little wrong. A small but never ending situation with CNN!"
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDrake on October 22, 2019, 10:21:53 AM
"All Republicans must remember what they are witnessing here -- a lynching. But we will WIN!" - DJT
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Pete at Home on October 24, 2019, 08:55:12 PM
Quote
Almost 3.9 million Americans have been lifted off food stamps since the election.

Lifted?  Or knocked off food stamps?
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Wayward Son on October 29, 2019, 03:24:15 PM
President Donald Trump:

"The Never Trumper Republicans, though on respirators with not many left, are in certain ways worse and more dangerous for our Country than the Do Nothing Democrats. Watch out for them, they are human scum!"
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Crunch on October 29, 2019, 06:32:31 PM
He was speaking theoretically. It’s all the rage.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Pete at Home on November 02, 2019, 10:07:50 AM
DW, wtf? You aren’t usually the type to uncritically parrot what the leftwit mob is saying without thinking for yourself.

Trump explicitly claims that women CONSENT to having his kitty grabbing.  It’s a wishful thinking locker room brag.

If leftwits could produce a woman whom Trump had nonconsentually kitty-grabbed,
then the could reasonably claim that the line describes assault (although an educated leftwit would more correctly call it battery), arguing that Trump assumes consent like Madonna did onstage with Drake. (“I’m Madonna, bitch.” she told him when he resisted her forced kiss onstage).
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: DonaldD on November 02, 2019, 10:16:57 AM
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump_sexual_misconduct_allegations
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Pete at Home on November 02, 2019, 03:08:56 PM
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump_sexual_misconduct_allegations

I hope that wasn’t supposed to respond to my question.

The general disrespect, narcissism and misogyny implicit in Trump’s grabbing remark (like Madonna’s “I’m Madonna, bitch”) *does* generally support sexual misconduct allegations. Nevertheless, the sentence neither describes nor admits actual assault or battery.  This should be obvious, but leftwits have turned the phrase into an emperors new clothes test, just as they did the Obama undocumented voters flap. This sort of systematic public gaslighting is IMO the principal reason that Trump got elected in the first place.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: DonaldD on November 02, 2019, 11:33:18 PM
Quote
produce a woman whom Trump had nonconsentually kitty-grabbed,
then the could reasonably claim that the line describes assault
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump_sexual_misconduct_allegations
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Crunch on November 03, 2019, 08:15:30 AM
So you’re making the accusation that Ttump is just like Bill Clinton?
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: DonaldD on November 03, 2019, 09:15:58 AM
Sure, although I don't think Clinton bragged about assaulting women.  Which is irrelevant to the point being made, that notwithstanding Pete's "not a true Scottish rapist" argument, there are plenty of women alleging that Trump DID touch them sexually without consent.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Crunch on November 03, 2019, 10:47:35 AM
Yeah, Kavanaugh too. Literally 1000’s of allegations since he ran a rape gang when he was a teen.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: DonaldD on November 03, 2019, 01:28:29 PM
I don't think that word means what you think it means
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Pete at Home on November 03, 2019, 07:08:51 PM
Sure, although I don't think Clinton bragged about assaulting women.  Which is irrelevant to the point being made, that notwithstanding Pete's "not a true Scottish rapist" argument,t



I don’t know why this is so hard for you, Donald.
I said that rape involves a violation of consent.
You are supposed to have a legal education.
Trump claimed that women consent to him grabbing them.

In your little nook of Canada, does the word “grab” signify “without consent”?
Please think harder.

I said th

Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: DonaldD on November 03, 2019, 07:49:53 PM
Quote
If leftwits could produce a woman whom Trump had nonconsentually kitty-grabbed,
then the could reasonably claim that the line describes assault 
Your words, your challenge, your conclusion, Pete. Maybe you misspoke - but then own your mistake.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Pete at Home on November 03, 2019, 07:54:47 PM
Quote
If leftwits could produce a woman whom Trump had nonconsentually kitty-grabbed,
then the could reasonably claim that the line describes assault 
Your words, your challenge, your conclusion, Pete.

What the hell does that have to do with the “no true Scotsman” fallacy? Or are you just repeating something you heard?
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: D.W. on November 04, 2019, 09:11:07 AM
WB Pete.  Had to scroll up to mid September to see what you were on about.  :P  Sorry I didn't pay enough attention to Clinton for your liking. 
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Crunch on November 04, 2019, 06:51:20 PM
I don't think that word means what you think it means

Oh, you saw Princess Bride and can quote it. Wow, deep. Now do one about killing your father! That always proves a point. Always.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Wayward Son on November 05, 2019, 05:43:46 PM
President Donald Trump:

"False stories are being reported that a few Republican Senators are saying that President Trump may have done a quid pro quo, but it doesn’t matter, there is nothing wrong with that, it is not an impeachable event. Perhaps so, but read the transcript, there is no quid pro quo!"

Parse that!  :P
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: yossarian22c on November 06, 2019, 11:31:12 AM
President Donald Trump:

"False stories are being reported that a few Republican Senators are saying that President Trump may have done a quid pro quo, but it doesn’t matter, there is nothing wrong with that, it is not an impeachable event. Perhaps so, but read the transcript, there is no quid pro quo!"

Parse that!  :P

Classic Trump, "FAKE NEWS, and if I did do it its not illegal/bad anyway. I didn't do it."

As a persuasion strategy, it is much more effective on his supporters than I would have ever anticipated prior to seeing it work.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: D.W. on November 06, 2019, 12:29:45 PM
Is there any rhyme or reason to him switching from first to third person statements?  I've never really studied rhetorical devices but the guy's seemingly chaotic style is interesting if nothing else. 
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: rightleft22 on November 06, 2019, 03:25:39 PM
Is there any rhyme or reason to him switching from first to third person statements?  I've never really studied rhetorical devices but the guy's seemingly chaotic style is interesting if nothing else.

What I find interesting if the only a few people can pull that off and not be dismissed out of hand. Trump speech style is calculated and one he’s worked at to master. Those that say that’s just how he is, Trump being Trump greatly underestimate him and the power of that type of rhetoric. 

Boris Johnson plays at being foolish and deliberately messes his hair before he speaks. There is intent behind the ‘madness’ and its not honesty.
Hitler was thought to be a great orator, but he wasn’t. Hitler oratory was performance not eloquence.   (not comparing Trump to Hitler)

Canadian PM Chretien had a heavy Quebec accent and whenever he found himself in a tight spot it would get really thick and confusing. His statements wouldn’t make sense, and it worked because he never said what he said. Very effective. 

Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Wayward Son on November 13, 2019, 06:02:21 PM
“You’re doing a fantastic job for the people of Turkey.”

--President Trump to Turkey President Recep Tayyip Erdogan
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Crunch on November 26, 2019, 04:23:41 PM
Quote
Pres. Trump says Bread and Butter, turkeys vying for Thanksgiving pardon, have "already received subpoenas to appear in Adam Schiff's basement on Thursday."

"But Bread and Butter, I should note that unlike previous witnesses, you and I have actually met.

LMAO
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: cherrypoptart on November 29, 2019, 06:40:02 AM
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7731917/Donald-Trump-tweets-image-ROCKY.html

Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDeamon on November 29, 2019, 11:03:48 PM
Quote
Pres. Trump says Bread and Butter, turkeys vying for Thanksgiving pardon, have "already received subpoenas to appear in Adam Schiff's basement on Thursday."

"But Bread and Butter, I should note that unlike previous witnesses, you and I have actually met.

LMAO

Clear the Presidential Pardon of Bread and Butter was a political action, we need to the Attorney General from the relevant state launch an in depth investigation into the background of the pardoned individuals in question and make sure there is no foul play involved in these action, and level state charges if warranted.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Crunch on November 30, 2019, 08:05:13 AM
I’m mildly surprised there weren’t three turkeys named quid, pro, and quo. Given Trump’s mastery of the troll, a turkey named impeachment or Schiff could have been done.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Wayward Son on December 05, 2019, 01:44:03 PM
"That was funny when I said that guy was two-faced."

President of the United States of America, Donald Trump, referring to his name-calling of Canadian President Justin Trudeau.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: rightleft22 on December 06, 2019, 09:45:38 AM
"That was funny when I said that guy was two-faced."

President of the United States of America, Donald Trump, referring to his name-calling of Canadian President Justin Trudeau.

Its a interesting personality trait. The Donald loves to make fun of people and make up nick names for them, those he likes and dislikes but when someone laughs at him or calls him a name hes the biggest victim in the world. In the former case his followers love it especially if it pushes against polite correctness like making fun of the handicap. But in the latter case are outraged at how anyone could pick on Trump. 
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Seriati on December 06, 2019, 10:00:16 AM
I'm not outraged at all.  It's stunning to me that Trump can't take an insult given how willing he is to dish them out.  He's like the classic forum poster who has to respond to every thing, every time no matter how ridiculous a position he has to take to do so.

He has absolutely no ability to just publically laugh it off, or even to make a self deprecating joke to smooth it over.  It is a definite weakness and a flaw that I wish he'd work on.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: ScottF on December 06, 2019, 11:03:52 AM
I believe there is a link between self-deprecating humour and overall psychological well being. I also think Trump's over-the-top ego is not all that unique in private sector CEOs, and that there's a potential link to psychopathy in people who exhibit those kinds of traits*.




*I am not a psychologist.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDrake on December 06, 2019, 11:25:42 AM
By private sector, do you perhaps mean privately held companies? Ceos of public companies tend to know all the right moves, and often display humility whether genuine or not. In my opinion, sole proprieters of local companies display these traits most.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Fenring on December 06, 2019, 11:57:34 AM
By private sector, do you perhaps mean privately held companies? Ceos of public companies tend to know all the right moves, and often display humility whether genuine or not. In my opinion, sole proprieters of local companies display these traits most.

Usually private sector is the counterpoint to government employees, or to companies working off of government money (like nonprofits working off grants). My most common use of the phrase "private sector" comes when I observe how poorly run a a department is or how much an employee doesn't care about doing the job properly, and usually my comment is something to the effect that "wow, this wouldn't pass muster in the private sector." The reason being, misbehaving in the private sector often results in getting hell from your boss or being fired, and this starts at the top where some kind of efficiency is needed in order to turn a profit.

My takeaway, at least, when ScottF mentioned psychopathy in the private sector is that in the private sector one often has to bust heads and make cold, calculated decisions (layoffs, cuts, re-assigning resources, etc, even aggressive sales practices) to cut it, and psychopaths are probably well-suited to this type of comportment. Whereas in nonprofits or government jobs it's doubtful that such militant department leadership is the norm.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDrake on December 06, 2019, 12:33:56 PM
Oh, I know what private sector generally means, but it didn't make sense to me in context, so I asked to clarify.

It's a common misconception that only an abrasive hard ass can make the tough decisions and guide a company to success.

Level 5 leaders (https://www.jimcollins.com/concepts/level-five-leadership.html) are empirically shown to have better results and build enduring companies.

Quote
The good-to-great executives were all cut from the same cloth. It didn’t matter whether the company was consumer or industrial, in crisis or steady state, offered services or products. It didn’t matter when the transition took place or how big the company. All the good-to-great companies had Level 5 leadership at the time of transition. Furthermore, the absence of Level 5 leadership showed up as a consistent pattern in the comparison companies. Given that Level 5 leadership cuts against the grain of conventional wisdom, especially the belief that we need larger-than-life saviors with big personalities to transform companies, it is important to note that Level 5 is an empirical finding, not an ideological one.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: rightleft22 on December 06, 2019, 01:02:25 PM
Quote
I'm not outraged at all.

I was generalizing but used the word 'followers' intentionally instead of supporters.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: LetterRip on December 06, 2019, 03:02:34 PM
I believe there is a link between self-deprecating humour and overall psychological well being. I also think Trump's over-the-top ego is not all that unique in private sector CEOs, and that there's a potential link to psychopathy in people who exhibit those kinds of traits*.

There is indeed a link.  Basically the ability to 'forgive' insults and percieved slights is oxytocin dependent (via two paths, one associated with empathy).

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2008/05/neurochemistry-forgiving-and-forgetting

https://www.bustle.com/articles/184793-how-forgiveness-works-and-why-its-good-for-you

The lack of empathy in Psychopathy/sociopathy/narcissism is due to a mutation of the oxytocin receptor.  So they are incapable of forgiveness in the way that normal people are. This is why you see it is common for them to hold grudges and exact revenge over stuff that others think are fairly trivial matters.  Narcissists are particullarly sensitive to percieved humilation and are particularly prone to seeking revenge.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Pete at Home on December 06, 2019, 05:47:57 PM
"That was funny when I said that guy was two-faced."

President of the United States of America, Donald Trump, referring to his name-calling of Canadian President Justin Trudeau.

Its a interesting personality trait. The Donald loves to make fun of people and make up nick names for them, those he likes and dislikes but when someone laughs at him or calls him a name hes the biggest victim in the world.

Not the biggest in the world.  Just the biggest on the right. 

I warned for decades that Right wingers would eventually catch onto the leftist language of righteous victimization and that the combination of leftwit tactics and Rightwad agenda would put the national discourse out of its misery.  I hate being right.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Pete at Home on December 06, 2019, 05:52:36 PM
I believe there is a link between self-deprecating humour and overall psychological well being. I also think Trump's over-the-top ego is not all that unique in private sector CEOs, and that there's a potential link to psychopathy in people who exhibit those kinds of traits*.

There is indeed a link.  Basically the ability to 'forgive' insults and percieved slights is oxytocin dependent (via two paths, one associated with empathy).

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2008/05/neurochemistry-forgiving-and-forgetting

https://www.bustle.com/articles/184793-how-forgiveness-works-and-why-its-good-for-you

The lack of empathy in Psychopathy/sociopathy/narcissism is due to a mutation of the oxytocin receptor.  So they are incapable of forgiveness in the way that normal people are. This is why you see it is common for them to hold grudges and exact revenge over stuff that others think are fairly trivial matters.  Narcissists are particullarly sensitive to percieved humilation and are particularly prone to seeking revenge.

Interesting.  Wouldn't that mean that Pathonarcs experience marijuana differently?   I'm picturing something like the Blade Runner Empathy test on weed :)

Maybe that would explain why our last narcicist in chief "didn't inhale"
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: cherrypoptart on December 06, 2019, 07:02:11 PM
"They got rid of the lightbulb that people got used to. The new bulb is many times more expensive, and I hate to say it, it doesn't make you look as good. Of course, being a vain person, that's very important to me. It gives you an orange look. I don't want an orange look. Has anyone noticed? So we'll have to change those bulbs in rooms where I'm in."
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: LetterRip on December 07, 2019, 11:07:53 AM
"They got rid of the lightbulb that people got used to. The new bulb is many times more expensive, and I hate to say it, it doesn't make you look as good. Of course, being a vain person, that's very important to me. It gives you an orange look. I don't want an orange look. Has anyone noticed? So we'll have to change those bulbs in rooms where I'm in."

Funny parody.  I could definitely see people falling for this one.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: LetterRip on December 07, 2019, 12:04:54 PM
Damnit - it wasn't a parody?  Looks like he was doing a joke (also a shocker since it is a bit self depricating humor).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_iFi1qH8Cg

As to 'why get rid of plastic straws' - it is because they jam the gears of recycling and processing equipment.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Crunch on December 07, 2019, 04:44:55 PM
It’s really not much of a shocker, Trump does self deprecating jokes all the time. There are articles written about it.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Wayward Son on December 12, 2019, 04:59:14 PM
Nothing to quote--you just got to see this for yourself. (https://twitter.com/TrumpWarRoom/status/1205156430879379460/photo/1)

A legend in his own mind. :)  (And proof positive that he's in great shape.  Why, he has the body of the 16-year-old!)  ;D
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDrake on December 20, 2019, 01:38:08 PM
Quote
A far left magazine, or very "progressive," as some would call it, which has been doing poorly and hasn't been involved with the Billy Graham family for many years, Christianity Today, knows nothing about reading a perfect transcript of a routine phone call and would rather.....
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on December 20, 2019, 01:53:54 PM
It’s really not much of a shocker, Trump does self deprecating jokes all the time. There are articles written about it.

You think he's being funny, but to most people he's out of touch and regurgitates an inane and distorted sense of reality that he swallows whole from FOX.  Remember his claim that wind turbines aren't safe because they kill nearly a million birds a year?  That was a hoot.  Cars kill about 200 million a year, but he didn't bring up that old chestnut.
But wind turbines do cause cancer, right?  Wow, why didn't I think of that one!  How about people  having to flush their toilets 15 times because the water just trickles out.  I think I cracked a rib on that one.  I'm a stable genius!  Ha, ha, Mr. Ed is yelling neigh! neigh! in professional appreciation...

When you tell and repeat close to 100 lies a week to national audiences with a straight face, some of them have to be jokes, right?  He should probably have his own show where he can say anything he wants...wait, he already does!
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Crunch on December 20, 2019, 05:50:59 PM
It’s really not much of a shocker, Trump does self deprecating jokes all the time. There are articles written about it.

You think he's being funny, but to most people he's out of touch and regurgitates an inane and distorted sense of reality that he swallows whole from FOX.  Remember his claim that wind turbines aren't safe because they kill nearly a million birds a year?  That was a hoot.  Cars kill about 200 million a year, but he didn't bring up that old chestnut.
But wind turbines do cause cancer, right?  Wow, why didn't I think of that one!  How about people  having to flush their toilets 15 times because the water just trickles out.  I think I cracked a rib on that one.  I'm a stable genius!  Ha, ha, Mr. Ed is yelling neigh! neigh! in professional appreciation...

When you tell and repeat close to 100 lies a week to national audiences with a straight face, some of them have to be jokes, right?  He should probably have his own show where he can say anything he wants...wait, he already does!

No link...
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Ouija Nightmare on December 20, 2019, 06:56:39 PM
It’s really not much of a shocker, Trump does self deprecating jokes all the time. There are articles written about it.

You think he's being funny, but to most people he's out of touch and regurgitates an inane and distorted sense of reality that he swallows whole from FOX.  Remember his claim that wind turbines aren't safe because they kill nearly a million birds a year?  That was a hoot.  Cars kill about 200 million a year, but he didn't bring up that old chestnut.
But wind turbines do cause cancer, right?  Wow, why didn't I think of that one!  How about people  having to flush their toilets 15 times because the water just trickles out.  I think I cracked a rib on that one.  I'm a stable genius!  Ha, ha, Mr. Ed is yelling neigh! neigh! in professional appreciation...

When you tell and repeat close to 100 lies a week to national audiences with a straight face, some of them have to be jokes, right?  He should probably have his own show where he can say anything he wants...wait, he already does!

No link...

Which part are you needing proof of?  Those things are all more or less common knowledge 🤔
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDeamon on December 20, 2019, 07:22:06 PM
Which part are you needing proof of?  Those things are all more or less common knowledge 🤔

Because common knowledge has never been wrong in the history of common knowledge. :)
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on December 20, 2019, 07:27:58 PM
Quote
No link...

Nyuk, nyuk.  I've already dismissed that pushback, so you not responding stands on its own.  No offense, Crunch, but if you don't have anything to bring to the discussion, maybe you should just sit and watch.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on December 21, 2019, 07:46:11 AM
Which part are you needing proof of?  Those things are all more or less common knowledge 🤔

Because common knowledge has never been wrong in the history of common knowledge. :)
'

That's ironically un-self-aware, since Crunch's superpower appears to be parroting common knowledge that is really just folklore.  You seem to be agreeing here.  You can check the things I cited and find that all of them are documented and true except for what I attributed to Mr. Ed.  He's too smart to get involved.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Crunch on December 21, 2019, 09:12:24 AM
Quote
No link...

Nyuk, nyuk.  I've already dismissed that pushback, so you not responding stands on its own.  No offense, Crunch, but if you don't have anything to bring to the discussion, maybe you should just sit and watch.

You dismissed it? Link please, otherwise we must assume you made that up. Your rules, enjoy them!!
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on December 21, 2019, 09:22:02 AM
Let's try it the other way 'round since you're playing at being a skeptic.  What did I say that you know is not true?  I'll check back in a few days to see if you've come up with anything.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: yossarian22c on December 21, 2019, 09:45:26 AM
Let's try it the other way 'round since you're playing at being a skeptic.  What did I say that you know is not true?  I'll check back in a few days to see if you've come up with anything.

Let me save you time. Its the quantity of lies. While it may be arguable Trump tells 100 lies a week, his supporters will pick that list apart and argue 70 of them are really just opinions and another 15 are minor or not important. The people who make those lists would do better if they valued quality over quantity.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: ScottF on December 21, 2019, 11:14:20 AM
If the new standard is all-I-say-is-true-and-documented then I'd also need "but to most people he's out of touch..." backed up. I'd be curious as to what sources indicate most people feel this way.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: ScottF on December 21, 2019, 11:51:55 AM
Unless you meant most of the people you know, most of the people in media, or something like that?
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on December 21, 2019, 12:35:13 PM
Here are a few examples of Trump being out of touch.  I wouldn't exactly call them lies, but they could be called whoppers or just plain stupid remarks if, as Trump says, you shouldn't be PC.  For many of them, as Linus Pauling supposedly once wrote on one of his student's test papers, "This is not right, it's not even wrong."

* People have to flush their toilets up to 15 times.

* Wind turbines cause cancer.

* "If you buy a box of cereal—you have a voter ID."

* Asbestos would have saved the World Trade Center.

* Exercise uses up the bodies finite energy. This one echoes Jack D. Ripper in Dr. Strangelove dropping nukes on the Soviet Union to "protect our precious bodily fluids."

* Young people pay $12/yr for health insurance.

* "Remember, new "environment friendly"  lightbulbs can cause cancer. Be careful-- the idiots who came up with this stuff don't care."

* Sleeping is bad for you.

* Shaking hands is barbaric.

* The F-35 stealth fighter is literally invisible.



Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDrake on December 21, 2019, 01:02:17 PM
Here's a link to the wild claim about toilet flushes.

https://grist.org/politics/we-investigate-trumps-claim-that-people-are-flushing-toilets-10-times-15-times/
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDrake on December 21, 2019, 01:04:36 PM
We all know how the defense of such things go.

He's exaggerating.
He's joking.
He's trolling.

But never

He's an idiot.
He's a liar.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Pete at Home on December 21, 2019, 01:25:54 PM
* People have to flush their toilets up to 15 times.
Truth, unless you don't think that poor people are people. 


* Wind turbines cause cancer.
Lie.

* "If you buy a box of cereal—you have a voter ID."
Smug rich person's Exaggeration.

* Asbestos would have saved the World Trade Center.
I don't know if this is a lie or delusion


* Exercise uses up the bodies finite energy. This one echoes Jack D. Ripper in Dr. Strangelove dropping nukes on the Soviet Union to "protect our precious bodily fluids."
Delusion

* Young people pay $12/yr for health insurance.
Delusion wrapped in exaggeration


* "Remember, new "environment friendly"  lightbulbs can cause cancer. Be careful-- the idiots who came up with this stuff don't care."
I don't know if this is a lie or delusion


* Sleeping is bad for you.
This is a common Manic Psychosis

* Shaking hands is barbaric.
Cultural point of view impossible to identify as true or false

* The F-35 stealth fighter is literally invisible.
Common idiotic American misuse of the word "literally"
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDeamon on December 21, 2019, 01:42:51 PM
Here's a link to the wild claim about toilet flushes.

https://grist.org/politics/we-investigate-trumps-claim-that-people-are-flushing-toilets-10-times-15-times/

Hyperbole, but valid enough in my own anecdotal experience with regards to bowel movements and old vs new toilets. Older toilets that aren't efficiency ones could normally handle them easily enough in a single go.

If I'm using an efficiency toilet, I'll sometimes stop and flush before I even complete the bowel movement(and the toilet gets plugged up anyway), never mind when I get to the wiping after because of past experience with plugged ("efficiency") toilets. :o
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on December 21, 2019, 02:26:11 PM
Quote
* The F-35 stealth fighter is literally invisible.
Common idiotic American misuse of the word "literally"

No, he literally meant literally.  We can't see what he's actually thinking because he's wearing the Emperor's New Brain.

I remember when HW Bush seemed impressed when he watched an item being scanned at a supermarket.  It stuck to him like how the tank and helmet became so deeply attached to Dukakis that he could never climb out or take it off.  Neither of those were as they seemed, but Trump is 100% delivering the goods, literally.

Here's a bonus comment that sums things up nicely:

* "My wife says I'm the biggest star in the world. But she might just be saying that because she's intelligent."

Another time we can review his gratuitous personal attacks and grade school insults.  If John Dingell were alive today, he would reach out of his grave to take revenge.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDrake on December 21, 2019, 02:50:50 PM
Here's a link to the wild claim about toilet flushes.

https://grist.org/politics/we-investigate-trumps-claim-that-people-are-flushing-toilets-10-times-15-times/

Hyperbole, but valid enough in my own anecdotal experience with regards to bowel movements and old vs new toilets. Older toilets that aren't efficiency ones could normally handle them easily enough in a single go.

If I'm using an efficiency toilet, I'll sometimes stop and flush before I even complete the bowel movement(and the toilet gets plugged up anyway), never mind when I get to the wiping after because of past experience with plugged ("efficiency") toilets. :o

Fiber is your friend.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Pete at Home on December 21, 2019, 03:26:58 PM
Still, none of them reach the malice and delusion of HRC’s “under fire in Kosovo” death tongue bit. Only Trump’s “Mexicans are rapists” blurb comes anywhere close.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: NobleHunter on December 21, 2019, 03:33:49 PM
Malice?

Also, quantity has a quality all its own.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDeamon on December 21, 2019, 03:55:57 PM
Fiber is your friend.

I can still stop things up on a very fiber heavy diet. That and its soft enough as it is. I go when my body prompts me to go. It just doesn't seem to bother with "small transactions" in that department unless I'm sick.  8)
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Pete at Home on December 21, 2019, 03:56:38 PM
Lies to justify Trump’s inhumanity towards Mexicans and Clinton’s inhumanity towards Serbians, if not malice, what would you call it, noble Hunter? 
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: NobleHunter on December 21, 2019, 03:57:30 PM
I hadn't paid that much attention to the context of Clinton's story.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Pete at Home on December 21, 2019, 04:10:19 PM
You know the Clinton admin was dropping cluster bombs on Serbia, right? “Soft targets?”  And that the Kosovo war accomplished nothing but a distraction from the Monica blowout?
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on December 21, 2019, 04:15:03 PM
Fiber is your friend.

I can still stop things up on a very fiber heavy diet. That and its soft enough as it is. I go when my body prompts me to go. It just doesn't seem to bother with "small transactions" in that department unless I'm sick.  8)

Thanks, as it were, for sharing. FWIW, I am trying to get over SIBO.  If you don't know what that is, you're probably better off.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: NobleHunter on December 21, 2019, 04:46:39 PM
You know the Clinton admin was dropping cluster bombs on Serbia, right? “Soft targets?”  And that the Kosovo war accomplished nothing but a distraction from the Monica blowout?

But I didn't hear about Clinton's "under fire" story until rather after the fact. Probably not until it was disproven. So if there was any subtext about bombing them up because they were shooting at her, I missed it.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Pete at Home on December 21, 2019, 05:47:06 PM
The subtext wasn’t reported as connected in the reporting on either lie. I’ve connected four non simultaneous stories to make the comparison between the two malicious lies. 

The difference is that Trump’s lie appeared before exposure of the family separation atrocity, while Clinton’s under fire lie appeared years after exposure of her husband dropping cluster bombs on Serbian children on Easter Sunday.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDeamon on December 21, 2019, 08:34:42 PM
Fiber is your friend.

I can still stop things up on a very fiber heavy diet. That and its soft enough as it is. I go when my body prompts me to go. It just doesn't seem to bother with "small transactions" in that department unless I'm sick.  8)

Thanks, as it were, for sharing. FWIW, I am trying to get over SIBO.  If you don't know what that is, you're probably better off.

Well, Bowel movements probably aren't far removed from the rest of this thread.  ;)
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDrake on December 23, 2019, 09:07:22 PM
Quote
“I never understood wind. You know, I know windmills very much... Gases are spewing into the atmosphere. You know we have a world, right? So the world is tiny compared to the universe. So tremendous, tremendous amount of fumes & everything.”

Indeed.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on December 26, 2019, 12:17:57 PM
Let's try it the other way 'round since you're playing at being a skeptic.  What did I say that you know is not true?  I'll check back in a few days to see if you've come up with anything.

I think five days is enough time.  But if you're still waiting for the missing link, here it is (https://www.thenational.scot/news/14855129.south-africa-is-homo-naledi-the-missing-link-in-story-of-human-evolution/).
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Seriati on December 26, 2019, 02:22:57 PM
So we're back to debate the lies of Trump meme (and associated nonsense).  The idea being that because someone paid as a reported to document "lies" of Trump can string together a large list of "lies" that mostly are not in fact lies, but just things the left disagrees with, it's proof of exceptional capacity to lie.  Let you in on a secret, by that standard, just about every word out of every other politician's mouth is also a lie.

In any event, the usual citation is to the WaPo and it's been shown to misrepresent and inflate it's count massively with things that aren't lies.

* Young people pay $12/yr for health insurance.
Delusion wrapped in exaggeration

This one struck me as oddly specific and bizarre, so I decided to dig into it a bit.  It comes from a NY Times interview and is pulled out of context.  It's a long interview and they only excerpted parts of it, but this exchange six months into the Trump admin, came in the middle of discussing why he hadn't reformed Obamacare yet, after he explained that it took Obama 14 months with 60 votes in the Senate (and Trump only had 51), and Hillary couldn't get it down in 8 years with her husband's admin.

Quote
TRUMP: Nothing changes. Nothing changes. Once you get something for pre-existing conditions, etc., etc. Once you get something, it’s awfully tough to take it away.

HABERMAN: That’s been the thing for four years. When you win an entitlement, you can’t take it back.

TRUMP: But what it does, Maggie, it means it gets tougher and tougher. As they get something, it gets tougher. Because politically, you can’t give it away. So pre-existing conditions are a tough deal. Because you are basically saying from the moment the insurance, you’re 21 years old, you start working and you’re paying $12 a year for insurance, and by the time you’re 70, you get a nice plan. Here’s something where you walk up and say, “I want my insurance.” It’s a very tough deal, but it is something that we’re doing a good job of.

HABERMAN: Am I wrong in thinking — I’ve talked to you a bunch of times about this over the last couple years, but you are generally of the view that people should have health care, right? I mean, I think that you come at it from the view of …

TRUMP: Yes, yes. [garbled]

What does that even mean in context?  It looks like a proxy for saying young people pay very little at 21 and expect full benefits when they retire.  Doubtful anyone took it as an assertion of fact - the Times didn't even ask about it.  So why pull it out?  Just cause it sounds silly?

Quote
* The F-35 stealth fighter is literally invisible.
Common idiotic American misuse of the word "literally"

Most in depth write up on this issue I've seen, though he's more interested in the budget claim than the invisibility claim.

https://taskandpurpose.com/does-trump-think-stealth-fighter-jet-invisible-investigation (https://taskandpurpose.com/does-trump-think-stealth-fighter-jet-invisible-investigation)

If you read the quotes, not only does Trump refer to actually seeing the fighter on numerous times, it's absolutely clear that the context of invisibility is in reference to dog fights and combat effectiveness.  Only the liberal press and those looking for fault at ridiculous degree are not able to correctly identify context here, and to pretend they found some kind of lie or something only a moron would believe.

And Kasandra, this is exactly what frustrates me about replying to you.  You grab a list of bullets from leftist sites that are not supported that you haven't even researched, and then to "refute" them I have take time to look up what actually happened - and I'm pretty sure all you're going to do is double down on what's left.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on December 26, 2019, 04:01:30 PM
Quote
What does that even mean in context?  It looks like a proxy for saying young people pay very little at 21 and expect full benefits when they retire.  Doubtful anyone took it as an assertion of fact - the Times didn't even ask about it.  So why pull it out?  Just cause it sounds silly?

I agree that it doesn't make much sense, but in the snippet you quote he does in fact say "...you’re 21 years old, you start working and you’re paying $12 a year for insurance...".

What's your quibble?  And, by the way, when you say...
Quote
The idea being that because someone paid as a reported to document "lies" of Trump can string together a large list of "lies" that mostly are not in fact lies, but just things the left disagrees with, it's proof of exceptional capacity to lie.

...it sounds like you're saying fewer than 7,000 instances the Washington Post has reported of "misstatement of facts", narcissistic ego inflating self-compliments, misattributions, unsupported conspiracy theories and sheer gibberish are real.  The other 7,000+ instances are themselves lies that they reported out of spite, and not because he exaggerates, flatters himself with irrational compliments, lies, misattributes and repeats unsupported conspiracy theories.  Right?

As for your discovery about literally invisible F-35 stealth fighter jets, here's how your article rebutting claims that he said it starts:

Quote
Does President Donald Trump think the F-35 fighter is literally invisible? After researching his various statements on the 5th generation fighter, I don't really think so. But since he keeps saying exactly that — that the F-35 cannot be seen by enemy pilots...

To help you out I highlighted the part in that article where he says exactly what I said he did.  Since only one of the quotes the author cites include the word invisible, that doesn't mean he didn't say it, only that the author doesn't include a quote where he does say it, with one telling exception:

Quote
"The Navy, I can tell you, we're ordering ships. With the Air Force, we're ordering a lot of planes, in particular the F-35 fighter jet, which is, you know, almost like an invisible fighter. I was asking the Air Force guys, I said, how good is this plane? They said, well, sir, you can't see it. I said, yeah, but in a fight — you know, a fight — like I watch in the movies — they fight, they're fighting. How good is this? They say, well, it wins every time because the enemy cannot see it. Even if it's right next to it, it can't see it. I said, that helps. That's a good thing."

Well, you *can* see it if you're right next to it, right?  Are you going to insist that you can't see it, or Trump didn't mean exactly what he said?  Here's another instance of him saying it that I found:

Quote
"...almost like an invisible fighter…You can’t see it. You literally can’t see it. It’s hard to fight a plane you can’t see."

And another:

Quote
This is an incredible plane. It's stealth—you can't see it. So when I talk to even people from the other side, they're trying to order our plane. They like the fact that you can't see it.  I said, "How would it do in battle with your plane?" They say, "Well we have one problem—we can't see your plane." That's a big problem. Stealth, super stealth. The best in the world. We make the best military equipment in the world. Also, remember this: jobs.

Are you going to say he misspoke?

Quote
And Kasandra, this is exactly what frustrates me about replying to you.  You grab a list of bullets from leftist sites that are not supported that you haven't even researched, and then to "refute" them I have take time to look up what actually happened - and I'm pretty sure all you're going to do is double down on what's left.

Everything I cited *is* supported.  We can keep fencing on them if you insist, but I find it tiring and may give up.  I'll give you a chance to retract your rebuttal on the invisible plane.  If you still insist he never said it, that would be a meme and I definitely will give up responding to you.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on December 26, 2019, 05:24:07 PM
FWIW, I just bumped into this article, which I think you will like. It's from FOX, (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-tucker-carlson-fox-news-liar-inauguration-election-a9222061.html) so it must be accurate.

Quote
A leading Fox News host has issued a bizarre defence of Donald Trump, in which he described the president as a "liar" and a “full-blown BS artist”.

Tucker Carlson said the president makes misleading statements because “that’s who he is” and compared Mr Trump to a “salesman”.

“He's a talker, a boaster, a booster, a compulsive self-promoter. At times, he's a full-blown BS artist,” Mr Carlson said.

The Fox News presenter also rejected the White House’s claim that Mr Trump’s 2017 inauguration was “the largest ever measured on the national mall”.

“We're not going to lie to you: that was untrue,” he added.
...
However, despite acknowledging that the president often lies, Mr Carlson claimed the media hates him because he “tells the truth”.

There's more, but it was hard to read...

Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Fenring on December 26, 2019, 05:32:08 PM
I don't know if I would call any of that invisible nonsense a "lie" or even an untruth. It sounds like used car salesman talk to me. Not that that's a good thing either.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on December 26, 2019, 06:04:29 PM
He doesn't lie or say untruthful things, but I think we can all agree that he's a used car salesman wrapped inside an offensive clown inside a con man sitting in the Oval Office.  Good to have someone like him sitting there.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Seriati on December 26, 2019, 06:12:08 PM
Wow Kasandra, way to "prove" your case.  Like I said, only the liberal press and those looking for fault at a ridiculous degree find fault.

Its like declaring someone a liar for saying that they gave 110% effort.  You can only give 100%, so it's a lie.  Or in the rational world it's a common statement that can be understood in context.  It'd be wrong in a scientific context, but not in another.

So again, it's patently obvious since he's literally referenced the planes and his own ability to see them visually that he knows they are not visually invisible.  Accordingly, what the quotes refer to is the impact of their stealth systems in combat.  In combat hey are literally invisible to the methods used by modern fighters to locate, track and target them (hence "invisible").  Modern "dog fights" are visual dog fights, they aren't really dog fights at all.  They don't rely on human eye visuals, rather they rely on radar and other technical tracking and combat is long range missile lock-ups.  Not being targetable to a missile or trackable by an enemy fighter, is for all intents and purposes "invisible" in fact in that type of combat - even if they can visually see you the fact that their tracking and weapon systems can't at that range is effective invisibility.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-40327934 (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-40327934)

So, for all the quotes that you pulled out of the source I gave you, you missed the main point.  Stealth fighters are literally invisible in combat to the opposing sides fighters.  They can't be locked up even at close range because the missiles are not visual fire attacks and getting to guns range against hem would be difficult.  Nothing about what Trump said is remotely intended to imply they couldn't be shot down by visually targeted guns if the opportunity presents.

Honestly, I think your defense of that is a variant of bad faith.

And I told you the point on the 21 year old statement.  In context it's little different than saying they pay nothing.  I suspect this was completely obvious to the interviewers because they didn't even bother to ask a follow up question.  It was clearly a statement to demonstrate a broader point, the broader point doesn't rest at all on the statement, as an example, being true.

So, again, you found something that  there is no indication in context was intended to be a statement of fact and act like it's assertion was the point.  It'd be exactly like pulling out part of analogy to claim the person making the analogy asserting something absurd as fact.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Seriati on December 26, 2019, 06:13:20 PM
Fen, Trump certainly says things that are not true.  Like I said before, reminds me of some ship captains and fishermen I know.  No one on earth calls them liars just because their stories are better than the real life version.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDrake on December 26, 2019, 06:31:57 PM
That's because there are no consequences to a tall tale. When you exaggerate the amount of violence committed by immigrants it causes real problems.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on December 26, 2019, 07:36:02 PM
Quote
Wow Kasandra, way to "prove" your case.  Like I said, only the liberal press and those looking for fault at a ridiculous degree find fault.
Thanks, I think I did it pretty well.

Quote
So again, it's patently obvious since he's literally referenced the planes and his own ability to see them visually that he knows they are not visually invisible.

I confess that is truly hysterical :D !!!!  He can see them when they are on the ground and he's standing next to them, ergo they are never invisible even though he says when other planes go up against them they can't see them because they are invisible :D.  I give you credit for using 110% of your thinking ability on that one.  Next time you might want to try 200%.

Quote
So, for all the quotes that you pulled out of the source I gave you, you missed the main point.  Stealth fighters are literally invisible in combat to the opposing sides fighters.

Quote
While no aircraft is totally invisible to radar, stealth aircraft make it more difficult for conventional radar to detect or track the aircraft effectively, increasing the odds of an aircraft successfully avoiding detection by enemy radar and/or avoiding being successfully targeted by radar guided weapons.

Oh, so they're literally invisible, but not actually invisible, just harder to detect with radar.  Of course, if a pilot looks out their window they can see them quite clearly.  Literally!

Quote
Honestly, I think your defense of that is a variant of bad faith.

That's the whole problem here.  People like you believe in Trump as a matter of faith.  He can lie, abuse, violate his office as much as he wants, but he's still a good guy doing his best day in and day out.  Except when he's playing golf, which he would never do because he's too busy doing his job.  Literally!  I think that should be the word to signify Trump's time in office.

I'm done talking to you about this, literally.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDeamon on December 26, 2019, 07:47:02 PM
Quote
So, for all the quotes that you pulled out of the source I gave you, you missed the main point.  Stealth fighters are literally invisible in combat to the opposing sides fighters.

Quote
While no aircraft is totally invisible to radar, stealth aircraft make it more difficult for conventional radar to detect or track the aircraft effectively, increasing the odds of an aircraft successfully avoiding detection by enemy radar and/or avoiding being successfully targeted by radar guided weapons.

Oh, so they're literally invisible, but not actually invisible, just harder to detect with radar.  Of course, if a pilot looks out their window they can see them quite clearly.  Literally!

Bad phrasing is bad phrasing. They're not literally invisible, because they can be seen. But they are figuratively, or even practically, invisible for all other intents and purposes with regards to the current mission profile.

Now can we go lock the Grammar Nazi back in the closet please?
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on December 26, 2019, 10:06:47 PM
Ok, he said "literally" literally several times, but every time he said that enemy planes that might be right beside the Stealth bomber couldn't see it, he actually meant they could see it, because he meant "literally" figuratively.  He probably should have said something like "almost invisible to radar" but that's a big concept that might not register in his child's mind.

I am neither literally nor figuratively a grammar Nazi, but I do have a background in linguistics.  When he says - and I quote - "...it wins every time because the enemy cannot see it. Even if it's right next to it, it can't see it." he actually means they *can* see it.

Am I being obtuse?
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDeamon on December 26, 2019, 11:17:52 PM
I was commenting more on Seriati's use of "Literally" rather than Trump's.

In modern warfare, a plane that cannot be targeted by available weapons systems might as well be invisible even if the enemy pilot can see it. All the pilot can do in that case is try to shoot it down with their auto-canon. Which is going to be more easily said than done when up against a current generation fighter jet.

Weird word juxtapositions notwithstanding.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: cherrypoptart on December 27, 2019, 02:00:28 AM
SNL had a famous and funny "literally" skit. I'd link it but it's the first thing that pops up if you search SNL literally. I see MAD TV also did a skit on it but haven't watched it. I remember Sean Hannity once had me shaking my head and I don't remember the exact quote but it might have been something like Obama has Congress literally in the palm of his hand or something like that meaning Obama controlled Congress. It's like the Princess Bride quote about inconceivable except the word now is literally. You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Calling that a lie is a big stretch. You could argue that it's not proper English but there's another argument that since our language is flexible and adapts if enough people use a word a certain way even if according to the old rules it was absurd eventually it becomes acceptable enough or at least commonly understood. I think, perhaps unfortunately, we're probably there or close to it now with this literally business.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on December 27, 2019, 05:37:47 AM
The urge to give Trump a pass on his lies is strong in this one, and this one, and this one.  I'm going to throw out my dictionaries, since they are obviously useless now.  Perhaps you Trumpspeak Jedi can explain what he meant when he said "tariffs are making America rich."  It's likely you know what the word "rich" means better than I do and agree with him.  Is it like something with too many calories?  That doesn't really help me, because a calorie is a kilocalorie, so 1 is 1000, or something.  Why isn't it a calory?  Somebody help me out, figuratively!
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: cherrypoptart on December 27, 2019, 06:41:11 AM
Tariffs hurt us in the short term but in the long term if, and that's a big IF, they are successfully used as Trump is intending as a negotiating tool to bring down barriers of entry to U.S. goods in China THEN after they are reduced again as part of the negotiating process having resulted in concessions it will be to the advantage of the U.S. and probably China as well. You can't really have free trade without fair trade. It's hardball negotiating, Trump's specialty. And it can take a while because you have to walk away from the table a few times to get a good deal and not leave too much money on the table as all of our negotiators before Trump have done which is easily proven by both the trade imbalance as well as their tariffs on our goods compared to ours on theirs.

And I don't even think Trump is asking for complete parity. He's just looking to get something that's a little more fair and looks just the slightest bit reciprocal. He's not asking for them to give up their advantage completely. Just make it the least bit less lopsided.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDrake on December 27, 2019, 07:11:31 AM
2: in effect : VIRTUALLY —used in an exaggerated way to emphasize a statement or description that is not literally true or possible
will literally turn the world upside down to combat cruelty or injustice
— Norman Cousins
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: cherrypoptart on December 27, 2019, 10:37:08 AM
Yes. Excellent. Well it looks like it already got codified into the language as legitimate. Unfortunately that looks like there is one less lie now that Trump can be accused of telling. More context:

https://www.latimes.com/socal/burbank-leader/opinion/tn-blr-me-aword-20180214-story.html

"But not even “literally” is that literal. Here’s Merriam’s second definition: “in effect, virtually — used in an exaggerated way to emphasize a statement or description that is not literally true or possible; ‘will literally turn the world upside down to combat cruelty or injustice’ — Norman Cousins.”

In other words, all those annoying figurative uses of “literally” are also correct. And if you find that hard to swallow, you’re not alone. Even Merriam seems a bit lukewarm on users who take too many liberties with “literally.

“Sense 2 is common and not at all new but has been frequently criticized as an illogical misuse,” Merriam’s editors write. “It is pure hyperbole intended to gain emphasis, but it often appears in contexts where no additional emphasis is necessary.”
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on December 27, 2019, 11:08:23 AM
2: in effect : VIRTUALLY —used in an exaggerated way to emphasize a statement or description that is not literally true or possible will literally turn the world upside down to combat cruelty or injustice
— Norman Cousins

Still not buying it.  If someone uses the word for exaggerative effect, it means heightened emphasis, not contradiction of fact.  The plane is not literally invisible when you're right next to it.  It's not even hard to see.  If he was trying to exaggerate for effect, he could have/should have said the plane is literally invisible to radar.  But, like I said, that's a hard concept for some people.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Pete at Home on December 27, 2019, 12:47:39 PM
SNL had a famous and funny "literally" skit. I'd link it but it's the first thing that pops up if you search SNL literally. I see MAD TV also did a skit on it but haven't watched it. I remember Sean Hannity once had me shaking my head and I don't remember the exact quote but it might have been something like Obama has Congress literally in the palm of his hand or something like that meaning Obama controlled Congress. It's like the Princess Bride quote about inconceivable except the word now is literally. You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Calling that a lie is a big stretch. You could argue that it's not proper English but there's another argument that since our language is flexible and adapts if enough people use a word a certain way even if according to the old rules it was absurd eventually it becomes acceptable enough or at least commonly understood. I think, perhaps unfortunately, we're probably there or close to it now with this literally business.


I didn’t say it was “improper English.” I said that those who use the word that way are illiterates. Or I should have said, ‘ iliteralits’”
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on December 30, 2019, 02:37:33 PM
The urge to give Trump a pass on his lies is strong in this one, and this one, and this one.  I'm going to throw out my dictionaries, since they are obviously useless now.  Perhaps you Trumpspeak Jedi can explain what he meant when he said "tariffs are making America rich."  It's likely you know what the word "rich" means better than I do and agree with him.  Is it like something with too many calories?  That doesn't really help me, because a calorie is a kilocalorie, so 1 is 1000, or something.  Why isn't it a calory?  Somebody help me out, figuratively!

Well, now we know that the Federal Reserve hasn't read the memo on how wonderful tariffs are (https://www.salon.com/2019/12/30/federal-reserve-report-finds-trumps-tariffs-raised-prices-cut-employment-and-hurt-us-manufacturers/).

Quote
President Donald Trump’s trade war raised prices for consumers and hurt the manufacturing industry, according to a report from economists on the Federal Reserve Board.

"The first comprehensive estimates" of the trade war’s effect on American manufacturers show that the tariffs have hurt the industry more than they helped, wrote Aaron Flaaen and Justin Pierce, two senior economists at the Federal Reserve's Industrial Output Section.

"We find that U.S. manufacturing industries more exposed to tariff increases experience relative reductions in employment as a positive effect from import protection is offset by larger negative effects from rising input costs and retaliatory tariffs," the report said.

In short, the economists concluded that the tariffs gave a “small boost” to manufacturers, which was “offset by larger drags from the effects” of rising costs and retaliatory tariffs.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDeamon on December 30, 2019, 02:47:27 PM
Nobody claimed tariffs were going to be a short-term gain in this case, and what you're citing is a short-term issue. The market will take time to adjust to the new pricing realities to settle in and for other production options to be brought online. China has been playing a masterful game of destroying entire sections of the production chain across multiple industries for industry located anywhere outside of China.

Because those production capabilities often no longer exist outside of China, or don't exist on any meaningful scale, they have to be re-created, and those capabilities aren't something that can be restored by flipping a switch. It will take years for new capacity to be brought online at sufficient scale. At least, not without resorting to far more aggressive option which would cost a lot of money and resources to make happen.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on December 30, 2019, 02:50:30 PM
So, you're supportive of the tariff regimen, yet you say it will take years to restore trade to a level commensurate with where it was before Trump initiated them?  That's a good thing?
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Pete at Home on December 30, 2019, 03:23:40 PM
I don’t think he said what you think he said
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDeamon on December 30, 2019, 05:56:50 PM
So, you're supportive of the tariff regimen, yet you say it will take years to restore trade to a level commensurate with where it was before Trump initiated them?  That's a good thing?

China's Trade practices are anti-competitive, and in some cases are easily argued as threats to national security, and even global security as the United States aren't the only ones who allowed themselves to be bamboozled by the Chinese.

The only way you fix the damage done to the global trade system is through tariffs against China and any other nation who seeks to benefit from China's damaging practices.

Yes, in the short to medium term it will reduce trade activity as the "most efficient" option is to go with the cheapest one, which is China... For now. The problem is when so many essential economic activities require capabilities that only China has, you have a huge problem on your hands.

China does something you don't like? Too bad, you won't be able to do anything about it, because your own people are reliant on Chinese produced goods to function, and it isn't even your own people you have to worry about. Every advanced economy on the planet is likewise beholden to China for their economy to function, so you run the risk of your ostensible allies going to war in defense of China because you're threatening their own economic well being.

The Chinese Communist have played a masterful game of using the Capitalistic free market system against the rest of the world. We have allowed a command and control economy to leverage the Capitalistic system in order to obtain control over key links in the (active) production chain.

Arguably, Trump should do more, but we can't afford to do more at this point because our position is that bad already. The Status Quo is economic suicide for any Free Nation that wants to stick with it as it relates to "free trade" and China.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Pete at Home on December 30, 2019, 08:32:16 PM
Yes. Excellent. Well it looks like it already got codified into the language as legitimate.

Facepalm. Is that what you literally think that a dictionary does? Determines which usages are “legitimate”?

If dumbasses routinely misuse a word in a specific way, the dictionary will describe that usage. That doesn’t mean that ain’t becomes good English.

Dictionaries describe how words are used. Including how stupid people use words.  Such descriptions don’t turn the drooling morons into respectable people.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Fenring on December 30, 2019, 08:55:50 PM
President Donald Trump’s trade war raised prices for consumers and hurt the manufacturing industry, according to a report from economists on the Federal Reserve Board.

I trust the Federal Reserve board about as far as I can throw a bus. They're basically a Wall Street burger with a dash of relish. I do not believe that there has ever been a time in history when the people on that board knew what they were talking about, and the big difference between one board setup and another is that only some of them were absolutely proven to be incompetent. That, and the fact that their allegiance is difficult to pinpoint at any given time, makes any statement they make waver in my view between being either ignorant or partisan (but not on a Democrat/Republic axis).
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on December 30, 2019, 09:44:59 PM
Yes. Excellent. Well it looks like it already got codified into the language as legitimate.

Facepalm. Is that what you literally think that a dictionary does? Determines which usages are “legitimate”?

If dumbasses routinely misuse a word in a specific way, the dictionary will describe that usage. That doesn’t mean that ain’t becomes good English.

Dictionaries describe how words are used. Including how stupid people use words.  Such descriptions don’t turn the drooling morons into respectable people.

Not to be too pedantic, but just pedantic enough, linguists have been wringing their hands over the misuse of "literal" since at least Fowler's Modern English Usage in 1924, who similarly bemoaned to how "veritable" ceased to mean "true" altogether and became what's called an intensifier, like how we use "really" or "definitely" today.  I don't credit Trump with much linguistic prowess, and in fact think he is a veritable dumbass when it comes to using, uh, words.  So when he says you literally have to flush 15 times or literally can't see a plane when it's right next to you, he really definitely means just that.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on December 30, 2019, 09:48:15 PM
Quote
I trust the Federal Reserve board about as far as I can throw a bus.
Sure, why not bash them all, because they have letters after their names and still are complete morons.  I have to assume that if you got them in a room, you could 'splain them how things really are.  Ron Vara could, too.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Pete at Home on December 30, 2019, 10:13:19 PM
Yes. Excellent. Well it looks like it already got codified into the language as legitimate.

Facepalm. Is that what you literally think that a dictionary does? Determines which usages are “legitimate”?

If dumbasses routinely misuse a word in a specific way, the dictionary will describe that usage. That doesn’t mean that ain’t becomes good English.

Dictionaries describe how words are used. Including how stupid people use words.  Such descriptions don’t turn the drooling morons into respectable people.

Not to be too pedantic, but just pedantic enough, linguists have been wringing their hands over the misuse of "literal" since at least Fowler's Modern English Usage in 1924, who similarly bemoaned to how "veritable" ceased to mean "true" altogether and became what's called an intensifier, like how we use "really" or "definitely" today.  I don't credit Trump with much linguistic prowess, and in fact think he is a veritable dumbass when it comes to using, uh, words.  So when he says you literally have to flush 15 times or literally can't see a plane when it's right next to you, he really definitely means just that.

Au contraire, Trump understands that dumbasses are his most loyal constituents and he literally speaks to them in their own stupefying jargon.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Fenring on December 31, 2019, 11:17:49 AM
Quote
I trust the Federal Reserve board about as far as I can throw a bus.
Sure, why not bash them all, because they have letters after their names and still are complete morons.  I have to assume that if you got them in a room, you could 'splain them how things really are.  Ron Vara could, too.

Non sequitor?
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on December 31, 2019, 02:15:34 PM
Quote
I trust the Federal Reserve board about as far as I can throw a bus.
Sure, why not bash them all, because they have letters after their names and still are complete morons.  I have to assume that if you got them in a room, you could 'splain them how things really are.  Ron Vara could, too.

Non sequitor?

Sequitor!  I made the not large leap to think that because you call them incompetent and disparage their ability to make good decisions, that you might be able to straighten them out.  Ignore their credentials and cumulative knowledge of the subject matter their expertise rests on if you think you have better.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDrake on December 31, 2019, 02:45:17 PM
Yes. Excellent. Well it looks like it already got codified into the language as legitimate.

Facepalm. Is that what you literally think that a dictionary does? Determines which usages are “legitimate”?

If dumbasses routinely misuse a word in a specific way, the dictionary will describe that usage. That doesn’t mean that ain’t becomes good English.

Dictionaries describe how words are used. Including how stupid people use words.  Such descriptions don’t turn the drooling morons into respectable people.

And with that rant, it is now fair game to call Pete on every incorrect usage of any word he employs...
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on December 31, 2019, 03:59:19 PM
Quote
And with that rant, it is now fair game to call Pete on every incorrect usage of any word he employs...

Not sure why you decided that.  Dictionaries are only reliable when the words they define are looked at in isolation, and then only as a reference to the usage(s) at the time the dictionary was composed.  Communication invents meanings (not definitions) for words in context.  I recently wrote a 500 word mini-review of the history of the word "literal" for a friend with similar interests, serendipitously because he brought it up, not me.  Johnson's 1757 dictionary defines the word to mean "primitive," by which he meant that it referred to a single letter in the alphabet that conveyed no significance of its own.  After another 100 or so years the primary definition was "exactly as written" and primitive was relegated to the secondary definition.  Another century on, "primitive" had disappeared altogether.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Pete at Home on December 31, 2019, 04:07:30 PM
Drake,
Thank you for accurately using the word “usage” rather than “grammar” to identify the issue at hand.

But you still don’t get it. It is not about “correct” usage. There are different usages and each one says test something slightly different about what’s being said and/or about the speaker.  For example, if you refer to black people as “negroes” your usage is not “incorrect” but conveys an attitude that you may not intend.
Quote
And with that rant, it is now fair game to call Pete on every incorrect usage of any word he employs...

It certainly would be fair game if I had said that in response to bad usage from a board participant. But unless you,Drake, are Trump’s personal avatar on this board, it makes no sense for you to Vow revenge.

With that said, if I ever do say anything as stupid as conflating literal with figurative, please do call me on it.  We do have a lot of arguments about usage, and I don’t believe I’ve ever complained about you repeatedly calling me on mine. It gives me the opportunity to clarify what I meant, either by changing my usage or by correcting your assumptions about me and my message.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Pete at Home on December 31, 2019, 04:22:14 PM
In California usage, “Mexican” refers to any brown faced person, usually a laborer, who speaks a Latin based language.  If that usage spreads then eventually it will appear in the dictionaries, if it hasn’t already. The usage is never the less offensive and miss leading


https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Mexican

Quote

Definition of Mexican
1a : a native or inhabitant of Mexico
b : a person of Mexican descent
c Southwest : a person of mixed Spanish and Indian descent



Dictionaries are prescriptive with regard to spelling, but purely descriptive with regard to usage
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDeamon on January 01, 2020, 07:51:31 PM
In California usage, “Mexican” refers to any brown faced person, usually a laborer, who speaks a Latin based language.  If that usage spreads then eventually it will appear in the dictionaries, if it hasn’t already. The usage is never the less offensive and miss leading


https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Mexican

Quote

Definition of Mexican
1a : a native or inhabitant of Mexico
b : a person of Mexican descent
c Southwest : a person of mixed Spanish and Indian descent



Dictionaries are prescriptive with regard to spelling, but purely descriptive with regard to usage

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0377744/
Quote
When a mysterious fog surrounds the boundaries of California, there is a communication breakdown and all the Mexicans disappear, affecting the economy and the state stops working missing the Mexican workers and dwellers.

Released in 2004, IIRC, "Mexican" saw the wider use, not the technically correct use.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDrake on January 02, 2020, 09:42:48 AM
Well, I use literal in the second sense, and I don't think I'm a moron.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDrake on January 02, 2020, 11:32:56 AM
“We threw wrenches, we threw everything even literally the kitchen sink at the glass and it didn’t break. For some weird reason, it broke now,” Musk said, drawing laughs. “I don’t know why.

Do you suppose they actually did use a kitchen sink in this testing? Why haven't people been retweeting Musk for misleading people by stating that he hit a truck with a sink?

Because it is obvious what he meant.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Fenring on January 02, 2020, 11:57:46 AM
It's no mystery: "literally" has been a meme/slang word for a while now. It means "even as much as!", a sort of exclamation. e.g. I did literally everything I could! Consider it to be a modern usage of what might have been I indubitably did everything in my power!.

Not sure why this is a point of argument.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: ScottF on January 02, 2020, 12:18:02 PM
“We threw wrenches, we threw everything even literally the kitchen sink at the glass and it didn’t break. For some weird reason, it broke now,” Musk said, drawing laughs. “I don’t know why.

Do you suppose they actually did use a kitchen sink in this testing? Why haven't people been retweeting Musk for misleading people by stating that he hit a truck with a sink?

Because it is obvious what he meant.

This is just one of the 4155 lies Musk has told over the past 5 years.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Pete at Home on January 02, 2020, 12:53:20 PM
Well, I use literal in the second sense, and I don't think I'm a moron.

I don't either, but like Trump you pander to morons or let yourself go with their flow.

It's a big deal to me, Fenring, because the usage obfuscates the distinction between literal and figurative and contributes to Americans' general stupidity about figurative language, which leads to idiocy like people using actual rods to avoid spoiling the child, and so on.  Bible illiteralism is the cause of many hateful phenomena in what passes for our society.

Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Fenring on January 02, 2020, 01:19:59 PM
It's a big deal to me, Fenring, because the usage obfuscates the distinction between literal and figurative and contributes to Americans' general stupidity about figurative language, which leads to idiocy like people using actual rods to avoid spoiling the child, and so on.  Bible illiteralism is the cause of many hateful phenomena in what passes for our society.

I know what you mean, but I've observed that annoyance over the misuse of "literally" seems to have become just as much of a meme as the slang usage of it, to the point where both the 'misuse' and the correction of the misuse almost seem to be in sympatico in the memeing.

There are many terms that became slang in the 20th century where the 'misuse' of it is really at odds with the intended use; for instance 'radical', which meant extraordinarily off-center politically or socially (when used as a noun) or a large degree of difference (when used as an adjective), and came to mean "extraordinary" without qualification; "rad". I suspect that the main difference between radical and literally in how much their usage annoys people is that radical gets used in such different contexts that it's always clear whether someone means "excellent!" or "extreme". "A radical change in temperature" is probably not going to be taken to mean "the change in temperature is excellent!" Whereas if one says "this is literally the worst day ever" it might actually mean that there has been no worse day, but more likely just means it's a very bad day. That potential confusion may be what's annoying, although I can't be sure. Compared to most slang usages the slang in this case is suspiciously close to the original meaning in some cases so can create language issues. But that doesn't really address what I take to be a fact that it's clearly slid into slang usage these days, rather than it being a definitional problem.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Pete at Home on January 02, 2020, 01:57:34 PM
Radical still communicates something.

The odious abuse of “literally” has no function except to obfuscate and increase the word count.

It obfuscates to the point where if somebody uses the term in the meaningful sense, it’s unclear that he or she meant “not figuratively.”  The odious usage belongs in the same category as the n-word.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDrake on January 02, 2020, 02:27:14 PM
Radical still communicates something.

The odious abuse of “literally” has no function except to obfuscate and increase the word count.

It obfuscates to the point where if somebody uses the term in the meaningful sense, it’s unclear that he or she meant “not figuratively.”  The odious usage belongs in the same category as the n-word.

I'm literally dying right now. This usage has a purpose, to highlight and make your statement more forceful. I'm dying right now, on its own, is already a silly metaphor. By adding literally you force the reader or listener to focus on the statement. It is the same usage as "I'm seriously dying right now." or "I'm totally dying right now."

I don't think that it is a threat that somebody who tells the 911 operator that their friend is literally dying that they will take it figuratively.

Likewise, saying that something is literally invisible, when there is no such thing as invisible vehicles.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Pete at Home on January 02, 2020, 02:31:28 PM
If the metaphor of dying isn’t strong enough for you, get a better one. You are educated. You owe society better than that.   In Augusta GA I know this convicted murderer named Stacy “Mayhem” Carr who likes to literally pull out a BB gun that looks like a real pistol to add emphasis to his words. I should set you up. Other tacky tricks to add emphasis include writing full sentences in capital letters.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Pete at Home on January 02, 2020, 02:53:59 PM
“ I don't think that it is a threat that somebody who tells the 911 operator that their friend is literally dying that they will take it figuratively“

you think? I take it that you haven’t had to make a life or death 911 call in the last 10 years.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Fenring on January 02, 2020, 03:01:06 PM
“ I don't think that it is a threat that somebody who tells the 911 operator that their friend is literally dying that they will take it figuratively“

you think? I take it that you haven’t had to make a life or death 911 call in the last 10 years.

I think you make your own bed if you use the word "literally" on a 911 call regardless of usage. I don't see how that word would help you. "He is literally bleeding to death!" doesn't make the severity any clearer to the dispatcher than "He is bleeding to death!" does. Basically if you use slang on a 911 call and it misleads them I think that's on you; in the case of "literally" I don't know why you would literally use it at all.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Pete at Home on January 02, 2020, 08:02:58 PM
“ I don't think that it is a threat that somebody who tells the 911 operator that their friend is literally dying that they will take it figuratively“

you think? I take it that you haven’t had to make a life or death 911 call in the last 10 years.

I think you make your own bed if you use the word "literally" on a 911 call regardless of usage. I don't see how that word would help you. "He is literally bleeding to death!" doesn't make the severity any clearer to the dispatcher than "He is bleeding to death!" does. Basically if you use slang on a 911 call and it misleads them I think that's on you; in the case of "literally" I don't know why you would literally use it at all.

I'm not the genius that (1) said that the deplorable use of "literally" was necessary for emphasis, and
(2) that focused the discussion on the context of a 911 call.

Nevertheless, you are wrong (sorry, Ornery tradition).

The whole point of having a word "literally" in the language is to distinguish actuality from a common figure of speech.

Drake: my neighbor literally exploded
911: so what's the problem?
Drake: I mean there are pieces of him literally all over the lawn
911: so what happened?  You said he just lost his temper

Granted its not a very likely scenario.  If Drake had a more commonplace usage to discuss, he should raise it; he's the one that wanted to discuss the 911 context.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on January 03, 2020, 06:45:11 AM
Quote
The whole point of having a word "literally" in the language is to distinguish actuality from a common figure of speech.

It served that function for hundreds of years, but now it also has the opposite usage.  We're in the post truth world of fake reality now. Deal with it.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Pete at Home on January 03, 2020, 12:52:25 PM
I stand unconvinced.

Has Drake successfully misled you as to how this side track arose? I didn’t jump up and insult anyone on this forum for how they use the word “literally.”  Reread the thread of you don’t believe me.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on January 03, 2020, 03:30:36 PM
Now I'm literally lost to see where this thread is going.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: DonaldD on January 03, 2020, 03:59:16 PM
I think you are figuratively lost...
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on January 03, 2020, 04:50:28 PM
I think you are figuratively lost...

Depends on what dictionary you're using.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDrake on January 04, 2020, 03:19:25 AM
I stand unconvinced.

Has Drake successfully misled you as to how this side track arose? I didn’t jump up and insult anyone on this forum for how they use the word “literally.”  Reread the thread of you don’t believe me.

You insulted all people who use that word in that manner, did you not?
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDeamon on January 04, 2020, 04:02:57 AM
Now I'm literally lost to see where this thread is going.

Given what its initial subject matter is, it seems you've gone full circle.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: cherrypoptart on January 04, 2020, 05:23:01 AM
Maybe this will end up being added to the list of words that are their own opposites.

https://www.mnn.com/lifestyle/arts-culture/stories/30-words-that-are-their-own-opposites
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on January 04, 2020, 06:38:57 AM
One of my favorites is "nice," which shows how meanings of words drift and adapt over time.  Originally it meant not knowing, or being an imbecile (idiot). All hell broke loose (literally?) during the middle ages when it progressively acquired usages of inoffensive, then fussy, then dainty, and finally sharp or precise, where we have arrived at the opposite of its original meaning.

Another good word is "mystery".  Ever wonder why "mystery plays" commemorating the stages of the cross were called that?
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Pete at Home on January 04, 2020, 10:59:58 AM
Another one is "bigot." It used to mean someone who thinks that differing thoughts are dangerous.   Now it means someone who thinks dangerous thoughts.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Pete at Home on January 04, 2020, 11:04:41 AM
Drake, you can use the word "literally" in the dumbass obfuscating sense all you like and I won't single you out personally for it.  If you're going to get pissy just because of my general opinion about the word, that's your problem, not mine.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: ScottF on January 04, 2020, 01:17:20 PM
Another one is "bigot." It used to mean someone who thinks that differing thoughts are dangerous.   Now it means someone who thinks dangerous thoughts.

It can also mean someone whom I disagree with but lack the ability to articulate how/why. See “homophobe”.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Crunch on January 04, 2020, 04:50:46 PM
Another one is "bigot." It used to mean someone who thinks that differing thoughts are dangerous.   Now it means someone who thinks dangerous thoughts.

It can also mean someone whom I disagree with but lack the ability to articulate how/why. See “homophobe”.
Or racist.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Pete at Home on January 05, 2020, 04:22:50 PM
One of my favorites is "nice," which shows how meanings of words drift and adapt over time.  Originally it meant not knowing, or being an imbecile (idiot). All hell broke loose (literally?) during the middle ages when it progressively acquired usages of inoffensive, then fussy, then dainty, and finally sharp or precise, where we have arrived at the opposite of its original meaning.

Another good word is "mystery".  Ever wonder why "mystery plays" commemorating the stages of the cross were called that?

To quiet the masses who complain that the underlying dogma makes little sense.

See also Measure for Measure, Act 4 scene 2 (https://www.sparknotes.com/nofear/shakespeare/measure-for-measure/page_166/), where an executioner describes his craft as a mystery analogous to the priesthood, and a pimp replies that pimping must be as well since his whores "paint" themselves.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on January 06, 2020, 05:10:13 AM
That's pretty good, Pete.  A "mystery" (or "mistery) was a craft or profession back in that time, and a guild was a "misterium".  "Mystery Plays" were small pageants staged by guilds celebrating the steps of the cross.  The word had tentacles into meanings of both "service/servant", an agent in civil or religious affairs acting under orders, and "secrecy", as in specialized professional or organizational knowledge held privately within the group.  Modern meanings of minister and mystery are derived from both of those.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Pete at Home on January 06, 2020, 05:22:13 AM
I played Joseph in a university production of a medieval mystery play. Plus measure for measure was always my favorite Shakespeare. Very timely in the age of me too, btw.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: yossarian22c on January 06, 2020, 08:01:59 AM
Quote
...targeted 52 Iranian sites (representing the 52 American hostages taken by Iran many years ago), some at a very high level & important to Iran &  the Iranian culture, and those targets, and Iran itself, WILL BE HIT VERY FAST AND VERY HARD. The USA wants no more threats!

Nothing like threatening war crimes to deescalate a situation.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Seriati on January 06, 2020, 10:04:48 AM
Quote
...targeted 52 Iranian sites (representing the 52 American hostages taken by Iran many years ago), some at a very high level & important to Iran &  the Iranian culture, and those targets, and Iran itself, WILL BE HIT VERY FAST AND VERY HARD. The USA wants no more threats!

Nothing like threatening war crimes to deescalate a situation.

What war crime would that be?
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: rightleft22 on January 06, 2020, 10:20:02 AM
Haven't been paying attention to the spin and such but heard that Trump was convinced by someone that wanted the strike telling him Obama wouldn't do it. 
No confirmation on that but under new truth of truthful hyperbole many could imagine this have a sliver of truth so true? Live by the sword die by the sword.

Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Wayward Son on January 06, 2020, 11:09:38 AM
Quote
...targeted 52 Iranian sites (representing the 52 American hostages taken by Iran many years ago), some at a very high level & important to Iran &  the Iranian culture, and those targets, and Iran itself, WILL BE HIT VERY FAST AND VERY HARD. The USA wants no more threats!

Nothing like threatening war crimes to deescalate a situation.

What war crime would that be?

Directing unlawful attacks against sites and buildings dedicated to religion, education, art, science or charitable purposes, or historic monuments.  Check out U.N. Resolution 2347 (https://www.undocs.org/S/RES/2347%20(2017)), which was written specifically to condemn ISIS destruction of heritage sites, and passed unanimously by the U.N. Security Council.

Quote
Noting the recent decision by the International Criminal Court, which for the first time convicted a defendant for the war crimes of intentionally directing attacks against religious buildings and historic monuments and buildings, ... Affirms that directing unlawful attacks against sites and buildings dedicated to religion, education, art, science or charitable purposes, or historic monuments may constitute, under certain circumstances and pursuant to international law a war crime and that perpetrators of such attacks must be brought to justice...

Trump isn't satisfied in imitating the worst of (alleged) Democratic behavior.  Now he wants to imitate some of the ISIS' behavior.

You guys must be so proud of electing him right now.  He looks to ISIS for his, and your, moral guidance.  ;D
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Pete at Home on January 06, 2020, 11:47:00 AM
Wayward is mostly correct. He fails only in confusing committing a crime with threatening to commit one.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Seriati on January 06, 2020, 11:50:25 AM
Quote
...targeted 52 Iranian sites (representing the 52 American hostages taken by Iran many years ago), some at a very high level & important to Iran &  the Iranian culture, and those targets, and Iran itself, WILL BE HIT VERY FAST AND VERY HARD. The USA wants no more threats!

Nothing like threatening war crimes to deescalate a situation.

What war crime would that be?

Directing unlawful attacks against sites and buildings dedicated to religion, education, art, science or charitable purposes, or historic monuments.  Check out U.N. Resolution 2347 (https://www.undocs.org/S/RES/2347%20(2017)), which was written specifically to condemn ISIS destruction of heritage sites, and passed unanimously by the U.N. Security Council.

Which sites are those that are on Trump's list of targets?
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Seriati on January 06, 2020, 11:53:14 AM
Wayward is mostly correct. He fails only in confusing committing a crime with threatening to commit one.

As far as I can tell, Wayward and the Dems are speculating.  Or did I miss Trump specifying which sites he meant?  Not every cultural site is entitled to immunity, for example our seats of government are also historical/cultural sites.   Any site that has been repurposed to support a combat operation is also no longer "purely" dedicated to it's other purpose.

Speculation is not evidence of a war crime.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Lloyd Perna on January 06, 2020, 12:12:06 PM
You guys haven't been paying attention.  There are several mind readers on this forum.  They know his inner thoughts and motivation for every decision he makes, sometimes even before he does.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDrake on January 06, 2020, 01:31:07 PM
You guys haven't been paying attention.  There are several mind readers on this forum.  They know his inner thoughts and motivation for every decision he makes, sometimes even before he does.

And since he's the master of ambiguity, it gives plenty of room to speculate. Why choose the word cultural? Even he probably doesn't know, or he cribbed it from social media.

Here's his version of clarification.

Quote
Speaking aboard Air Force One on his return to Washington on Sunday from a holiday at his Mar-a-Lago resort in Florida, Trump said: "They’re allowed to kill our people. They’re allowed to torture and maim our people. They’re allowed to use roadside bombs and blow up our people. And we’re not allowed to touch their cultural sites. It doesn’t work that way."

That sure sounds like "Why should we follow the rules when they don't?", does it not?
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on January 06, 2020, 01:52:27 PM
Quote
You guys haven't been paying attention.  There are several mind readers on this forum.  They know his inner thoughts and motivation for every decision he makes, sometimes even before he does.

Maybe not as hard as you might think :)
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Wayward Son on January 06, 2020, 02:20:00 PM
Quote
...targeted 52 Iranian sites (representing the 52 American hostages taken by Iran many years ago), some at a very high level & important to Iran &  the Iranian culture, and those targets, and Iran itself, WILL BE HIT VERY FAST AND VERY HARD. The USA wants no more threats!

Nothing like threatening war crimes to deescalate a situation.

What war crime would that be?

Directing unlawful attacks against sites and buildings dedicated to religion, education, art, science or charitable purposes, or historic monuments.  Check out U.N. Resolution 2347 (https://www.undocs.org/S/RES/2347%20(2017)), which was written specifically to condemn ISIS destruction of heritage sites, and passed unanimously by the U.N. Security Council.

Which sites are those that are on Trump's list of targets?

So are you saying, Seriati, that after assassinating Iran's #2 leader (or at least someone in the top 10), which brought out tens of thousands of mourners into the streets, and causing the Iranian government to vow revenge, that maybe Trump is simply threatening to take out a road-side marker to keep them from retaliating? :)

If they aren't significant cultural targets, then why bother?

And if they are significant, what makes you believe that none of them will rise to the level of those protected by Resolution 2347?

Quote
Speculation is not evidence of a war crime.

No, I haven't accused him of any war crimes, yet.  As the original post said, he is threatening to commit war crimes.  Threatening to take out Iranian cultural targets.

You guys haven't been paying attention.  There are several mind readers on this forum.  They know his inner thoughts and motivation for every decision he makes, sometimes even before he does.

Since when has reading someone's words and trying to understand what they mean reach the level of reading someone's mind?  That's what words are supposed to be for, aren't they?  To communicate to other people know what you are thinking.  ;)

Besides, no Democrats believes you can read Trump's mind.  You can't read something that doesn't exist.  ;D
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: D.W. on January 06, 2020, 02:37:22 PM
I think it's pretty obvious at this point Trump could "threaten" war crimes on social media unchecked.  It's only if he orders them that the status quo changes...   :-\

He's not faced repercussions for what he's only "said" (tweeted) thus far.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: rightleft22 on January 06, 2020, 02:43:59 PM
Quote
It's only if he orders them that the status quo changes.

even then I doubt very much he would be held accountable while in office.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Pete at Home on January 06, 2020, 02:50:06 PM
It’s beyond deplorable for wayward to continue referring to Iran’s master of assassins and torturers as if he was a lead figure of “government”. He was equivalent of the USSR’s chief of SMERSH.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Pete at Home on January 06, 2020, 02:55:32 PM
Nevertheless, the 52 cultural sites threat does make me uncomfortable.

What I fear is that we may have lost credibility to lead continued sanctions on Iran.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDrake on January 06, 2020, 02:56:36 PM
It’s beyond deplorable for wayward to continue referring to Iran’s master of assassins and torturers as if he was a lead figure of “government”. He was equivalent of the USSR’s chief of SMERSH.

Or the Director of the CIA. Unless you think none of them have ordered assassinations, torture, and fueled attacks by terrorists and opposition groups.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: NobleHunter on January 06, 2020, 03:00:48 PM
It’s beyond deplorable for wayward to continue referring to Iran’s master of assassins and torturers as if he was a lead figure of “government”. He was equivalent of the USSR’s chief of SMERSH.

Failing to recognize his importance in Iran seems like a recipe for failure to understand why Iran is so upset at his assassination death. It risks falling into the trap of demonization which makes war seem like a reasonable answer to the problem of Iran.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: rightleft22 on January 06, 2020, 03:04:25 PM
Quote
What I fear is that we may have lost credibility.

From what I’ve read around the globe USA credibly is at a all time low.

If the administration Iran strategy fails, the task of creating a coalition of the willing this time around won’t be easy.   The problem with having a leader that talks/tweets the way Trump does is that the country pretty much loses any moral authority.  Illusionary as that has always been or not, the illusion seems to matter. 
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on January 06, 2020, 03:37:18 PM
It’s beyond deplorable for wayward to continue referring to Iran’s master of assassins and torturers as if he was a lead figure of “government”. He was equivalent of the USSR’s chief of SMERSH.

He was a government official. Just because you think he was guilty of heinous acts doesn't delegitimize his standing.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDeamon on January 06, 2020, 04:21:05 PM
So are you saying, Seriati, that after assassinating Iran's #2 leader (or at least someone in the top 10), which brought out tens of thousands of mourners into the streets, and causing the Iranian government to vow revenge, that maybe Trump is simply threatening to take out a road-side marker to keep them from retaliating? :)

If by "mourner" you mean, "I'm here because I've been threatened by the Revolutionary Guard should I not 'pay due respect' to the fallen leader" then sure.

Many protests, going in either direction, in that part of the world need to be taken with very large grains of salt. There is a real chance most of the people present would rather be someplace else, but when you're essentially under threat of life and limb, helping create a photo-op sounds like a far more appealing option.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDeamon on January 06, 2020, 04:27:37 PM
Quote
What I fear is that we may have lost credibility.

From what I’ve read around the globe USA credibly is at a all time low.

If the administration Iran strategy fails, the task of creating a coalition of the willing this time around won’t be easy.   The problem with having a leader that talks/tweets the way Trump does is that the country pretty much loses any moral authority.  Illusionary as that has always been or not, the illusion seems to matter.

I doubt Trump will go with a land war option with Iran, we've already "been there, done that" with Iraq. We're not likely to be going down that road again anytime soon.

It'll be a bombing campaign, we'd knock out any military assets of note. Possibly do a solid number on command and control as well as basic infrastructure in order to prevent a rapid recovery,  then declare an end to active operations on our part. When they can't shoot back, the "formal" part of the war is concluded. Then Iran can stir up all the terrorists they want, and can deal with the international repercussions from doing that.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: rightleft22 on January 06, 2020, 04:39:35 PM
Quote
Many protests, going in either direction, in that part of the world need to be taken with very large grains of salt

True but discounting the possibility that many are authentically mourning and upset and not taking that into account is also a mistake.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Seriati on January 06, 2020, 04:41:33 PM
It’s beyond deplorable for wayward to continue referring to Iran’s master of assassins and torturers as if he was a lead figure of “government”. He was equivalent of the USSR’s chief of SMERSH.

He was a government official. Just because you think he was guilty of heinous acts doesn't delegitimize his standing.

Did you really just say "just because you think he was guilty"?

There's no question he was guilty.  There's no question his actions have killed Americans last year and would have continued to kill Americans  in the years to come.  His "standing" is delegitimized by operating for a country that refuses to hold it's officers and government officials for terrorism and war crimes.  For literally targeting civilians and engaging in attacks to maximize collateral damage.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Wayward Son on January 06, 2020, 04:45:25 PM
Quote
What I fear is that we may have lost credibility.

From what I’ve read around the globe USA credibly is at a all time low.

If the administration Iran strategy fails, the task of creating a coalition of the willing this time around won’t be easy.   The problem with having a leader that talks/tweets the way Trump does is that the country pretty much loses any moral authority.  Illusionary as that has always been or not, the illusion seems to matter.

I doubt Trump will go with a land war option with Iran, we've already "been there, done that" with Iraq. We're not likely to be going down that road again anytime soon.

It'll be a bombing campaign, we'd knock out any military assets of note. Possibly do a solid number on command and control as well as basic infrastructure in order to prevent a rapid recovery,  then declare an end to active operations on our part. When they can't shoot back, the "formal" part of the war is concluded. Then Iran can stir up all the terrorists they want, and can deal with the international repercussions from doing that.

You're forgetting one last step that Iran will take: allying more closely with Russia for their "mutual protection."

We'll probably see Russian troops and Russian ships in the area from here on, "to protect Iran from American aggression," adding to Russian influence in the Middle East.

A solid win for Putin, care of Donald Trump.  :(
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on January 06, 2020, 04:48:20 PM
It’s beyond deplorable for wayward to continue referring to Iran’s master of assassins and torturers as if he was a lead figure of “government”. He was equivalent of the USSR’s chief of SMERSH.

He was a government official. Just because you think he was guilty of heinous acts doesn't delegitimize his standing.

Did you really just say "just because you think he was guilty"?

There's no question he was guilty.  There's no question his actions have killed Americans last year and would have continued to kill Americans  in the years to come.  His "standing" is delegitimized by operating for a country that refuses to hold it's officers and government officials for terrorism and war crimes.  For literally targeting civilians and engaging in attacks to maximize collateral damage.

I'm sure he was behind many plots that caused deaths and destruction across the region. Satisfied?  My point was that we can feel that way about anyone and use that feeling to justify any act we take against them.  You seem incapable of grasping that we aren't the beacon of freedom that lights the world to many nations who have suffered from our international military actions.  The heads of our own military and Intelligence agencies might be equally guilty of heinous war crimes in other eyes.  We don't need to revisit our many military failures across the Mideast to remind ourselves, do we?  If you disagree, well then, you're more a nationalist than a patriot and Trump is your man.

When you respond, remember that you are a thinker of great nuanced thoughts, and I can only handle black and white.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on January 06, 2020, 04:59:26 PM
Quote
You're forgetting one last step that Iran will take: allying more closely with Russia for their "mutual protection."

We'll probably see Russian troops and Russian ships in the area from here on, "to protect Iran from American aggression," adding to Russian influence in the Middle East.

A solid win for Putin, care of Donald Trump.

I think this is right.  Putin has already spoken out that the assassination potentially destabilizes the entire region, so it makes sense for him to try to "help keep things stable".  Reminds one of Syria, I suppose.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Wayward Son on January 06, 2020, 05:00:34 PM
It’s beyond deplorable for wayward to continue referring to Iran’s master of assassins and torturers as if he was a lead figure of “government”. He was equivalent of the USSR’s chief of SMERSH.

He was a government official. Just because you think he was guilty of heinous acts doesn't delegitimize his standing.

Did you really just say "just because you think he was guilty"?

There's no question he was guilty.  There's no question his actions have killed Americans last year and would have continued to kill Americans  in the years to come.  His "standing" is delegitimized by operating for a country that refuses to hold it's officers and government officials for terrorism and war crimes.  For literally targeting civilians and engaging in attacks to maximize collateral damage.

Doesn't matter what we think or know.  Only thing that matters is if the Iranian government and/or people consider him a lead figure in their government, and whether he is worth fighting to revenge his death.

I mean, Russia would have considered it an act of war if we had assassinated Stalin.  They wouldn't have ignored it just because he tortured and murdered millions of people and might not have been that popular.  Killing a leader like that is akin to attacking the entire government.  So the Iranian government sees this assassination. 

You might consider him "delegitimized."  You might consider the whole Iranian government delegitimate.  But that won't stop them shooting missiles or coordinating the defense of their nation.  To them, he was legitimate.  And that is the only things that counts when we consider their reaction to it.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDeamon on January 06, 2020, 05:05:44 PM
You're forgetting one last step that Iran will take: allying more closely with Russia for their "mutual protection."

We'll probably see Russian troops and Russian ships in the area from here on, "to protect Iran from American aggression," adding to Russian influence in the Middle East.

A solid win for Putin, care of Donald Trump.  :(

Putin's gain is only Putin's gain. Russia as entity unto itself isn't going to last on the Global stage, they're more of a paper tiger than anything else as it is anyway. Yes they have some impressive weapons systems, but they cannot afford to operate them at any kind of significant scale. Russia still remains in a state of overall decline. China is far more of a proverbial bogeyman than Russia is, although China would just as soon we keep our focus fixed on Putin.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Wayward Son on January 06, 2020, 05:37:53 PM
Sure, in the long run Russia will fade from the world stage.

But, to quote Keynes, in the long run we are all dead. :)
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Pete at Home on January 06, 2020, 06:44:50 PM
Quote
You're forgetting one last step that Iran will take: allying more closely with Russia for their "mutual protection."

We'll probably see Russian troops and Russian ships in the area from here on, "to protect Iran from American aggression," adding to Russian influence in the Middle East.

A solid win for Putin, care of Donald Trump.

I think this is right.  Putin has already spoken out that the assassination potentially destabilizes the entire region, so it makes sense for him to try to "help keep things stable".  Reminds one of Syria, I suppose.

That’s funny. Mr. polonium tea thinks air strikes are assassination.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Pete at Home on January 06, 2020, 06:50:29 PM
It’s beyond deplorable for wayward to continue referring to Iran’s master of assassins and torturers as if he was a lead figure of “government”. He was equivalent of the USSR’s chief of SMERSH.

He was a government official. Just because you think he was guilty of heinous acts doesn't delegitimize his standing.

Heinous isn’t my point.  It’s that his position was that of master of terrorists and assassins.  There are good righteous terrorists (John brown and his kids) and good righteous assassins (the dudes that tried to kill Hitler). But it’s an act of deplorable sophistry to pretend that they are off limits non-combatants.

Dave’s fragging Crocket was a government official and a hero to us, but at the Alamo, he was a combatant. 

Mr S himself knew that he was fair game and said so himself, but told everyone that the USA was too afraid to take him out.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on January 06, 2020, 07:16:44 PM
Quote
That’s funny. Mr. polonium tea thinks air strikes are assassination.

Polonium tea is one way.  Of course airstrikes and planted bombs are legitimate means of carrying out an assassination.  Claus von Stauffenberg almost got Hitler with a car bomb, Orlando Letelier was killed by a roadside bomb, a bomb attack on Alexander II's carriage got him, a car bombing took out Alfred Herrhausen.  Aerial attacks were tried against Gaddafi in 1986, Milosevic in 1999 and Saddam Hussein in 2003.  Why do you think those leaders kept moving around?
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Pete at Home on January 06, 2020, 07:31:40 PM
Quote
That’s funny. Mr. polonium tea thinks air strikes are assassination.

Polonium tea is one way.  Of course airstrikes and planted bombs are legitimate means of carrying out an assassination.  Claus von Stauffenberg almost got Hitler with a car bomb, Orlando Letelier was killed by a roadside bomb, a bomb attack on Alexander II's carriage got him, a car bombing took out Alfred Herrhausen. 

Planting a bomb involves an assassin (killer out of uniform or infiltrating).  I've mentioned the 2 attacks on Hitler as "good guy" assassins to demonstrate that it's not an issue of morality but of specifics.  The two assassination attempts on Saladin that I linked to above were aimed at preventing a siege. Clearly self-defense, but assassination nonetheless.

Quote
Aerial attacks were tried against Gaddafi in 1986, Milosevic in 1999 and Saddam Hussein in 2003.  Why do you think those leaders kept moving around?

We had bombing campaigns going already with Milosevic and Saddam Hussein, so those are fair analogies.  Did the Democrats claim then that Clinton's attempt to bump off Milosevic was an assassination?  I certainly agree it was morally problematic, but not assassination.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDeamon on January 06, 2020, 07:32:14 PM
Quote
That’s funny. Mr. polonium tea thinks air strikes are assassination.

Polonium tea is one way.  Of course airstrikes and planted bombs are legitimate means of carrying out an assassination.  Claus von Stauffenberg almost got Hitler with a car bomb, Orlando Letelier was killed by a roadside bomb, a bomb attack on Alexander II's carriage got him, a car bombing took out Alfred Herrhausen.  Aerial attacks were tried against Gaddafi in 1986, Milosevic in 1999 and Saddam Hussein in 2003.  Why do you think those leaders kept moving around?

Ostensibly we were adhering to "the gentleman's rules" on those strike attempts. We waited until we expected them to be at a location of military value, and then bombed that location with the hope he would still be there. That way if we did kill them, we could claim it was "a happy accident" and not an attack outright targeting them. I'm not aware of any such "decapitation" type attacks which didn't pursue a military target. Quite possibly a few of those sites had been left off the bombing list expressly in the hopes their dear leader would show his head in there.
Title: Putin
Post by: Pete at Home on January 06, 2020, 09:07:35 PM
Speaking of Mr. Polonium, check out this bit of revisionism (https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/01/putin-blames-poland-world-war-ii/604426/).  Putin blames Poland for WW2.    Among his other achievements, Putin appears now to be a full scale Nazi collaborator like Molotov
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDeamon on January 06, 2020, 10:13:07 PM
Well, if those darn Poles hadn't fallen to the German Blitzkreig, Russia might have been able to stay out of the war. :)
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on January 07, 2020, 08:12:32 AM
Quote
Ostensibly we were adhering to "the gentleman's rules" on those strike attempts. We waited until we expected them to be at a location of military value, and then bombed that location with the hope he would still be there. That way if we did kill them, we could claim it was "a happy accident" and not an attack outright targeting them.

Another yeoman effort to recast events to your liking.  You've redefined "cultural sites" to include civil infrastructure, so wouldn't you agree that anywhere those dictators happened to be were "military sites"?  And the "happy accident" would have (or did) killed many civilians, too. 
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDeamon on January 09, 2020, 08:31:42 PM
Quote
Ostensibly we were adhering to "the gentleman's rules" on those strike attempts. We waited until we expected them to be at a location of military value, and then bombed that location with the hope he would still be there. That way if we did kill them, we could claim it was "a happy accident" and not an attack outright targeting them.

Another yeoman effort to recast events to your liking.  You've redefined "cultural sites" to include civil infrastructure, so wouldn't you agree that anywhere those dictators happened to be were "military sites"?  And the "happy accident" would have (or did) killed many civilians, too.

As I return to this thread to clear the new tags. Trump later walked his comment back, so he evidently wasn't going for the more sarcastic interpretation we were running with. But to continue on this train of thought for a bit:

Civil Infrastructure in a lot of cases is military infrastructure. They need electricity to power their RADARs, many weapon systems, and their communications. They need transportation infrastructure to move men and material to where it is needed, when it is needed. (Or to keep the civilians out of their way in the case of some transit systems--which could be used to move infantry, if nothing else)

 A drydock used for servicing fishing boats can "easily enough" be re-purposed to service coastal defense craft, if not larger vessels depending on the size of the "fishing boat" in question. (Some can be quite large)

Yes, the military would presumably be able to operate their stuff even if you knock out the civil power grid, but that then means they need material to keep their backup generators running, which means they're then relying on local transportation infrastructure.. Which is why the military would then start determining on if they want to blow up a particular bridge or not.

As to:
Quote
wouldn't you agree that anywhere those dictators happened to be were "military sites"?

Not exactly. Anywhere an enemy leader is located is a site of military interest, and can justify military actions taken at that location. However, that's a sliding scale that is very slippery, which will depend heavily on what the leader is doing while at that site, duration of their stay, and a number of other variables.

Blowing up Westminster Abbey because the Prime Minister and Queen happen to be in attendance for a wedding ceremony for example would be extremely "bad form" and worthy of universal condemnation, even with "a military justification" in the from of taking out the heads of state. Sending a company+ of infantry to assault and capture the Abbey during the Wedding would be another matter.

Now if it turned out the Queen and Prime Minister were holed up in Westminster Abbey because they'd set up command and control facilities in the Chapel and they were conducting a military campaign from within its halls? Flattening the building is on the proverbial table, and the ones needing condemnation would be the Queen and Prime Minister for having setup their operations at that location.

Needless to say as an aside, in the above scenario, if the Abbey was being used for command and control, and boasted other defensive emplacements even absent the Prime Minister and Queen, it becomes a valid target because it is being used for military purposes, which makes it a military target in its own right.

Another way to frame it, the USS Lincoln is a valid military target without respect to who is, or is not embarked upon it. Attacking the USS Lincoln while Donald Trump is walking its decks is "acceptable" so far as the rules of war are concerned. As ostensibly the claim can be made that the Lincoln was the target, not Trump. If Trump happened to be killed during the attack, well, that's a "happy accident" for the opposing force as per "the gentleman's rules"--even if they knew full well he was there before launching the attack, and may have been holding off on attacking the Lincoln expressly for the purpose of waiting for Trump to arrive.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDrake on January 10, 2020, 03:47:58 PM
Quote
"I'm going to tell you about the Nobel Peace Prize, I'll tell you about that. I made a deal, I saved a country, and I just heard that the head of that country is now getting the Nobel Peace Prize for saving the country. I said: 'What, did I have something do with it?' Yeah, but you know, that's the way it is. As long as we know, that's all that matters... I saved a big war, I've saved a couple of them."
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on January 10, 2020, 04:06:29 PM
As Lindsay Graham once said about Trump (before his conversion was completed), "If he didn't say it about himself, no one else would."
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Grant on January 11, 2020, 06:33:49 PM
1/11/20

A STATEMENT BY THE PRESIDENT

به مردم شجاع و رنج کشیده ایران: من از ابتدای دوره ریاست جمهوریم با شما ایستاده‌ام و دولت من همچنان با شما خواهد ایستاد. ما اعتراضات شما را از نزدیک دنبال می کنیم. شجاعت شما الهام بخش است.

دولت ایران باید به گروه‌های حقوق بشر اجازه بدهد حقیقت کنونی اعتراضات در جریان مردم ایران را نظارت کرده و گزارش بدهند. نباید شاهد کشتار دوباره ی معترضان مسالمت آمیز و یا قطع اینترنت باشیم. جهان نظاره گر این اتفاقات است.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on January 11, 2020, 07:00:47 PM
I hear you, man.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Grant on January 12, 2020, 09:41:40 AM
1/11/20

A STATEMENT BY THE PRESIDENT

You know, we're doing something that nobody has ever done.  I said to Saudi Arabia... we have a very good relationship with Saudi Arabia—I said, listen, you’re a very rich country. You want more troops? I’m going to send them to you, but you’ve got to pay us. They’re paying us. They’ve already deposited $1B in the bank.  We are going to help them, but these rich countries have to pay for it.  South Korea gave us $500 million.  They gave us $500 MILLION.  I said, "you gotta help us along. We have thirty-two thousand soldiers in South Korea, protecting you from North Korea.  You've gotta pay", and they gave us $500 million. 

I moved our troops out of Syria, out of the border between Turkey and Syria.  That turned out to be such a successful move.  Look what happened.  They've been fighting over that border for a thousand years, why should we do it?  And then they say "he left troops in Syria".  You know what I did?  I left troops to take the oil.  I took the oil.  The only troops I have are taking the oil.  They're protecting the oil. Maybe we should take it.  We have the oil.  The United States has the oil.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on January 12, 2020, 11:38:55 AM
Send the check to Rudy.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Wayward Son on January 13, 2020, 10:23:42 AM
Quote
به مردم شجاع و رنج کشیده ایران: من از ابتدای دوره ریاست جمهوریم با شما ایستاده‌ام و دولت من همچنان با شما خواهد ایستاد. ما اعتراضات شما را از نزدیک دنبال می کنیم. شجاعت شما الهام بخش است.

Wasn't that what he said to the Kurds? ;)
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Grant on January 13, 2020, 10:30:26 AM
13 JAN 2019

A STATEMENT FROM THE PRESIDENT

Starting the long overdue pullout from Syria while hitting the little remaining ISIS territorial caliphate hard, and from many directions. Will attack again from existing nearby base if it reforms. Will devastate Turkey economically if they hit Kurds. Create 20 mile safe zone...Likewise, do not want the Kurds to provoke Turkey. Russia, Iran and Syria have been the biggest beneficiaries of the long term U.S. policy of destroying ISIS in Syria - natural enemies. We also benefit but it is now time to bring our troops back home. Stop the ENDLESS WARS!
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Grant on January 13, 2020, 10:32:48 AM
7 OCT 2019

A STATEMENT FROM THE PRESIDENT

The United States was supposed to be in Syria for 30 days, that was many years ago. We stayed and got deeper and deeper into battle with no aim in sight. When I arrived in Washington, ISIS was running rampant in the area. We quickly defeated 100% of the ISIS Caliphate, including capturing thousands of ISIS fighters, mostly from Europe. But Europe did not want them back, they said you keep them USA! I said “NO, we did you a great favor and now you want us to hold them in U.S. prisons at tremendous cost. They are yours for trials.” They again said “NO,” thinking, as usual, that the U.S. is always the “sucker,” on NATO, on Trade, on everything. The Kurds fought with us, but were paid massive amounts of money and equipment to do so. They have been fighting Turkey for decades. I held off this fight for almost 3 years, but it is time for us to get out of these ridiculous Endless Wars, many of them tribal, and bring our soldiers home. WE WILL FIGHT WHERE IT IS TO OUR BENEFIT, AND ONLY FIGHT TO WIN. Turkey, Europe, Syria, Iran, Iraq, Russia and the Kurds will now have to. figure the situation out, and what they want to do with the captured ISIS fighters in their “neighborhood.” They all hate ISIS, have been enemies for years. We are 7000 miles away and will crush ISIS again if they come anywhere near us!
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Grant on January 13, 2020, 10:34:13 AM
8 OCT 2019

A STATEMENT FROM THE PRESIDENT

We may be in the process of leaving Syria, but in no way have we Abandoned the Kurds, who are special people and wonderful fighters. Likewise our relationship with Turkey, a NATO and Trading partner, has been very good. Turkey already has a large Kurdish population and fully understands that while we only had 50 soldiers remaining in that section of Syria, and they have been removed, any unforced or unnecessary fighting by Turkey will be devastating to their economy and to their very fragile currency. We are helping the Kurds financially/weapons!
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Grant on January 13, 2020, 10:35:35 AM
10 OCT 2019

A STATEMENT BY THE PRESIDENT

Turkey has been planning to attack the Kurds for a long time. They have been fighting forever. We have no soldiers or Military anywhere near the attack area. I am trying to end the ENDLESS WARS. Talking to both sides. Some want us to send tens of thousands of soldiers to the area and start a new war all over again. Turkey is a member of NATO. Others say STAY OUT, let the Kurds fight their own battles (even with our financial help). I say hit Turkey very hard financially & with sanctions if they don’t play by the rules! I am watching closely.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Grant on January 13, 2020, 10:36:56 AM
10 OCT 2019

A STATEMENT BY THE PRESIDENT

We defeated 100% of the ISIS Caliphate and no longer have any troops in the area under attack by Turkey, in Syria. We did our job perfectly! Now Turkey is attacking the Kurds, who have been fighting each other for 200 years. We have one of three choices: Send in thousands of troops and win Militarily, hit Turkey very hard Financially and with Sanctions, or mediate a deal between Turkey and the Kurds!
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Grant on January 13, 2020, 10:38:44 AM
13 OCT 2019

A STATEMENT BY THE PRESIDENT

Do you remember two years ago when Iraq was going to fight the Kurds in a different part of Syria. Many people wanted us to fight with the Kurds against Iraq, who we just fought for. I said no, and the Kurds left the fight, twice. Now the same thing is happening with Turkey. The Kurds and Turkey have been fighting for many years. Turkey considers the PKK the worst terrorists of all. Others may want to come in and fight for one side or the other. Let them! We are monitoring the situation closely. Endless Wars!
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Grant on January 13, 2020, 10:41:13 AM
14 OCT 2019

A STATEMENT BY THE PRESIDENT

Some people want the United States to protect the 7,000 mile away Border of Syria, presided over by Bashar al-Assad, our enemy. At the same time, Syria and whoever they chose to help, wants naturally to protect the Kurds.  I would much rather focus on our Southern Border which abuts and is part of the United States of America. And by the way, numbers are way down and the WALL is being built!

After defeating 100% of the ISIS Caliphate, I largely moved our troops out of Syria. Let Syria and Assad protect the Kurds and fight Turkey for their own land. I said to my Generals, why should we be fighting for Syria and Assad to protect the land of our enemy? Anyone who wants to assist Syria in protecting the Kurds is good with me, whether it is Russia, China, or Napoleon Bonaparte. I hope they all do great, we are 7,000 miles away!
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on January 13, 2020, 11:52:50 AM
He's pretty much focused on protecting the country from its natural enemies, Mexicans, Democrats and Congress.  That can take a lot of focus.  That Walmart in Texas might yet come in handy.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: rightleft22 on January 13, 2020, 12:14:28 PM
Quote
After defeating 100% of the ISIS Caliphate... I hope they all do great, we are 7,000 miles away

I understand the sentiment however doesn't this undermined the reasons for taking out of Suleimani
Iran is very much involved in Iraq and Syria, making Israel understandably nervous and where Suleimani was operating.
What is American Mideast policy / plan?
Is 143 characters enough to clarify it.

Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Wayward Son on January 13, 2020, 06:35:28 PM
Then there's this. (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/dec/11/trump-thanos-ad-marvel-video)

Not really a quote, but a campaign ad by a fourth-grader for fourth-graders.

That's what the Republican Party has become.  ::)
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on January 13, 2020, 06:37:07 PM
Do you ever wonder if he plays role-playing games in the East Wing when he's having "Executive Time"?  I wonder what Melania's character is.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDrake on January 13, 2020, 07:09:08 PM
Trump's favorite executive time toy (https://www.geek.com/geek-cetera/wonder-woman-invisible-jet-toy-from-comic-con-now-hitting-ebay-1273963/)
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Wayward Son on January 14, 2020, 03:38:31 PM
Trump's favorite executive time toy (https://www.geek.com/geek-cetera/wonder-woman-invisible-jet-toy-from-comic-con-now-hitting-ebay-1273963/)

I bet he loves playing with it with his associates John Barron, John Miller and David Dennison. :)
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Wayward Son on January 27, 2020, 10:26:46 AM
Regarding Lev Parnas:

"I don’t know him, other than he’s sort of like a groupie...He shows up at fundraisers. I don’t know anything about him...Parnas, I don’t know, other than he probably contributed to the campaign along with tens of thousands of other people...This weekend I was taking pictures with hundreds of people. Every once in a while I'll look at somebody and I'll say, ‘Gee, I wonder when that picture is going to be in The New York Times, or The Washington Post or on Fox'...I don't know him at all...Don't know what he's about. Don't know where he comes from. Know nothing about him. I can only tell you this thing is a big hoax...I don’t believe I’ve ever spoken to him"

You gotta wonder how stupid he thinks his supporters are.  ;D
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: yossarian22c on January 27, 2020, 11:18:44 AM
Regarding Lev Parnas:

"I don’t know him, other than he’s sort of like a groupie...He shows up at fundraisers. I don’t know anything about him...Parnas, I don’t know, other than he probably contributed to the campaign along with tens of thousands of other people...This weekend I was taking pictures with hundreds of people. Every once in a while I'll look at somebody and I'll say, ‘Gee, I wonder when that picture is going to be in The New York Times, or The Washington Post or on Fox'...I don't know him at all...Don't know what he's about. Don't know where he comes from. Know nothing about him. I can only tell you this thing is a big hoax...I don’t believe I’ve ever spoken to him"

You gotta wonder how stupid he thinks his supporters are.  ;D

Smart enough to rationalize it all away or ignorant enough to ignore all the evidence.

Its going to be followed up with, "I didn't know that was Lev Parnas I was talking to, it was just some guy Rudy introduced me to, I didn't even know who he was. I talk to people all the time, how can someone with the greatest memory in the history of man be expected to remember all the little people."
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on January 27, 2020, 11:55:38 AM
Well, there is no way to get your mind around how Republicans will defend the indefensible when it comes out of Donald Trump's mouth.  Here's Tom Cotton (https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/jan/26/tom-cotton-donald-trump-not-dismissing-us-troops-i/) backing up Trump's comments that the soldiers who suffered concussions in the Iranian attack on our bases in Iraq were just having headaches, nothing too serious.  For context, Cotton enlisted in the infantry and served as an officer in Iraq and Afghanistan, so he should know better.

Quote
Mr. Cotton rejected the idea that the president should apologize for his comments and said “if they are in fact, all these injuries are not serious, if they’re on the less serious side of the scale than the severe traumatic side of the scale, the president is just describing what happened. And I’m not dismissing them.”

Uh, you're what?
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDeamon on January 27, 2020, 08:40:48 PM
Well, there is no way to get your mind around how Republicans will defend the indefensible when it comes out of Donald Trump's mouth.  Here's Tom Cotton (https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/jan/26/tom-cotton-donald-trump-not-dismissing-us-troops-i/) backing up Trump's comments that the soldiers who suffered concussions in the Iranian attack on our bases in Iraq were just having headaches, nothing too serious.  For context, Cotton enlisted in the infantry and served as an officer in Iraq and Afghanistan, so he should know better.

Quote
Mr. Cotton rejected the idea that the president should apologize for his comments and said “if they are in fact, all these injuries are not serious, if they’re on the less serious side of the scale than the severe traumatic side of the scale, the president is just describing what happened. And I’m not dismissing them.”

Uh, you're what?

Their obfuscating doesn't help them.

I could believe that reports on the night of the attack were "superficial injuries, reports of (minor) headaches" which later escalated into TBI claims as the headache persisted/became worse.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: oldbrian on January 28, 2020, 07:05:44 AM
But also in context: we are talking about an army base that came under rocket attack.  I know concussions are much worse than most people think/admit, but a wound which can be worked around within a week and fully healed in 6 months probably IS light compared to what could have happened.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: yossarian22c on January 28, 2020, 07:41:32 AM
But also in context: we are talking about an army base that came under rocket attack.  I know concussions are much worse than most people think/admit, but a wound which can be worked around within a week and fully healed in 6 months probably IS light compared to what could have happened.

It really depends on the severity of the concussion or TBI in question. The stats on retired players in the NFL show that even minor concussions cause significant damage over time and have can have long term consequences.

Either way its not appropriate for the President to lead a political rally talking about how no one was hurt while troops are being flown to Germany for treatment.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: wmLambert on January 28, 2020, 06:26:32 PM
This thread has denigrated to a "gotcha" one. Too many post selected memes from Leftist hit sites, not looking to inform, but to defame the President. At the same time, too many middle-of-the-road folks have been contaminated by the constant attacks and say things like, "I may not like his manner, but appreciate all the good he's brought." The fact is, the media and Leftwing hit media portray him and his entire life as negatively as they can. The people who know him and have worked with him are mostly all admirers.

I like to mention that Trump was given the same Civil Rights award as the one given to Rosa Parks, on the same stage, yet the Democrats seem to have selective memories. Face it. If Trump had run as a Democrat rather than GOP, they would praise him. The accusations and insults are non-stop and usually pure disinformation.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Wayward Son on January 28, 2020, 06:39:04 PM
I'll admit it.  You're full of it. :)

Quoting Trump verbatim is now defaming him, eh?  Well, I guess we know the source of all these negative memes that make the President look bad:

The White House.  ;D

When you finally wake up and notice it, you'll be a lot better off.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDrake on January 29, 2020, 09:44:42 AM
Quote from: wmLambert  The people who know him and have worked with him are mostly all admirers.

[/quote

Incorrect. The vast majority of people who have worked with trump say he is unethical and a real pain. Many have had to sue him to get paid, communities that have one of his golf courses are in constant litigation to stop him from breaking ordinances, and we're not even talking yet about the trump u scam.

The people who are still cashing his checks are the only ones that admire him, or at least that's what they say now.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Seriati on January 29, 2020, 10:50:22 AM
Incorrect. The vast majority of people who have worked with trump say he is unethical and a real pain.

Care to cite to the study that established this?  We both know there isn't one, that this is one of those I heard it from a friend's brother's cousin about the real scoop.

Quote
Many have had to sue him to get paid, communities that have one of his golf courses are in constant litigation to stop him from breaking ordinances, and we're not even talking yet about the trump u scam.

There's an entire industry around golf course law, specifically because virtually ALL golf courses are constantly involved in litigation, and particularly those with houses/communities closely surrounding them.  Nothing unusual about that.

Flat out "many had to sue" to get paid is untrue.  I doubt there's even a statistically significant number that have had to do so, and none of them in the ordinary course.  Disputes about whether work was done as a greed are not properly characterized as someone having to sue to get paid.

Trump U seems like a stupid idea, it's not to Trump's credit, though its hardly alone in the world of these kind of seminar based programs (you can find them advertised on any late night program).  In any event, one of the principal claims seems to have been that Trump was not involved, despite his statements in commercials - hardly relevant to your claim about people that worked with him.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: rightleft22 on January 29, 2020, 11:03:55 AM
Quote
I doubt there's even a statistically significant number that have had to do so

The number of law suites appears to be 3500 +/- which statistically is in the high for any businesses
Trumps dealings with his contractors and screwing those that had invest in his failed ventures has been well documented - this before he decided to run for political office
He even brags about it in his book. His failures becomes success because he always seem to find away to have it not impact him. Trump demand loyalty but not it seem reciprocate it when things get tough.

Its interesting how Trump is able to rewrite history
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Seriati on January 29, 2020, 12:22:05 PM
Quote
I doubt there's even a statistically significant number that have had to do so

The number of law suites appears to be 3500 +/- which statistically is in the high for any businesses
Trumps dealings with his contractors and screwing those that had invest in his failed ventures has been well documented - this before he decided to run for political office

I have a number of problems with your response.  First, it comes from a USA today article that was published Jan 1, 2016 and specifically includes cases filed against him in the year after he announced his candidacy, which is not "before he decided to run."

Second, it was of all cases "involving" Trump or any of his businesses.  That's grossly non-responsive on two factors, first there's no intimation that they have to do with defaults for work payments in any significant respect, but second - and more importantly - they included in their 3500, 1900 actions filed by Trump or his Companies.  In fact the cases against Trump or one or more of his LITERALLY 500 companies that they found over 3 decades are only 1,450 cases.  By company (a misleading measure) that works out to less than 1 case per decade.

Then they broke the cases down further - but not just the ones filed against him (which makes the break out less useful).  1700 were tied to the casinos (1600 of which were collection cases against gamblers, which we know from the article but not the charts - that means only 300 were unrelated to gambling debts, excluding those filings would cut the total number of actions from 3500 to 1900).  In total, there were 125 contract disputes and 120 employment related cases (without any breakdown of who filed the cases).  The Trump organization currently has over 20,000 employees, and has had how many others over 3 decades? 

At the time, 1300 of the cases had an identifiable result (not clear if this was just those filed against Trump or all of them).  Trump had won 450 of them to 38 losses.  Another 500 had been dismissed (the narrative specifically says 500 of those filed AGAINST Trump, which may imply that these 1300 resolutions are literally related to the 1450 cases filed against him).  175 settlements (not specified who got the settlement).

For comparison they did a similar check on Hillary Clinton from 1993 - 2013 (from first lady through secretary of state - interesting time limits given the open ended search of Trump all the way to 2016), and found she was involved in 900 cases mostly as a defendant (without having 500 companies to her name, but with a third of those filed by federal prisoners).  If you consider timing, that means they found Trump and his 500 companies had about 485 cases filed against them per decade, and Hillary had 450 filed against her per decade.

You can re-read the nuance for yourself.  https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2016/06/01/donald-trump-lawsuits-legal-battles/84995854/ (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2016/06/01/donald-trump-lawsuits-legal-battles/84995854/)

I find that your accusation of re-writing history is more true about the point you are trying to make than about the claim you are disputing.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDrake on January 29, 2020, 12:57:50 PM
Care to cite to the study that established this?  We both know there isn't one, that this is one of those I heard it from a friend's brother's cousin about the real scoop.

No study, just dozens of media stories and several books.

https://fortune.com/2016/10/08/donald-trump-taxes-contractors/

Quote
Donald Trump’s Taj Mahal casino in Atlantic City, N.J., nearly flushed Forest Jenkins’ company Triad Building Services down the toilet.

In 1988 and 1989, Jenkins, a contractor, spent months installing the stall walls in the bathrooms of the mega-casino. The job was supposed to pay $231,000. The check for the work, though, never showed up, stretching the finances of Jenkins’ small construction business. Eventually Jenkins, whose business did manage to survive the episode, was paid $70,000, or 30 cents on the dollar in the restructuring that followed. The episode still upsets Jenkin’s daughter, Beth Rosser.

It does appear that I overestimated, however.

Quote
Reuters reviewed more than 50 court cases and liens from contractors related to Trump projects in New York, Atlantic City, Miami and West Palm Beach, and interviewed dozens of people who have done construction jobs or legal work for him. The majority said they were paid in full and happy to work for him but at least a dozen said they had been left out of pocket or had watched as other contractors were short-changed.

It is not business as usual.

Quote
To be sure, wrangling over prices and fees is more common in construction than in other industries. It’s not unusual for contractors to issue “change orders” seeking additional payment on the grounds that their original estimates were too low or did not account for a certain expense, industry experts say.

But the Trump conflicts Reuters analyzed had nothing to do with change orders. They were instances in which he decided the finished product was not worth the originally agreed-upon price.

Donald Gregory, general counsel for the American Subcontractors Association, a Washington-based trade group that represents individual building contractors, said renegotiating fees at the end of a job is not standard practice.

And

Quote
That Trump frequently follows such a practice has long been alleged in the press, with Trump issuing muddled responses—half denial, half admission. But what many Americans may not realize is that the prospect of a businessman systematically reneging on his promises as a negotiating strategy—known as “selling out one’s goodwill”—is a recognized danger of the way our contract law works. Fortunately, it’s one that few business people actually exploit, for several reasons.

The guy who wrote Art of the Deal certainly had plenty of access and has this to say"

Quote
Schwartz presents Trump as a mischievous schemer who used every trick in the book to project the image of success. For instance, he “rounded [up] every bulldozer and dump-truck” he could find for his vacant Boardwalk property to pretend he was busy with construction. He wanted to fool the Holiday Hotel board members into thinking it was “the most active construction site in the history of the world” so that they would invest.

Cheating your investors surely is admirable business practice.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: rightleft22 on January 29, 2020, 03:20:06 PM
Their was a documentary done on Trump pre political Trump which I don't have time to search for that looked into his business dealings and relationship his lawyer at the time.
(I remember the documentary because at the time I was doing a course on 'the shadow' where trump was a topic. Again before anyone thought he would run)

We talk of Trump as being a aggressive counter puncher but he is actually a aggressive preemptive puncher. His stated philosophy is to hit first. A favorite method to accuse the opponent of doing the very thing he is doing or looks like he will be accused of doing. Classic shadow projection which he then uses as a excuses for his behavior. I can be "crooked" because my opponent is "crooked".
This was well known long before he became political. It's his style and the result was allot of lawsuits and a lot of pissed off business acquaintances.

It is a philosophy that help get him elected so I don't see why your looking away from it and arguing that it never happened, or if it did  happen wasn't as bad as it seems, or was just business so not bad at all.

Its who the man is and the history your trying to change

Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: wmLambert on January 29, 2020, 04:08:09 PM
Quote from: rightleft22
...We talk of Trump as being a aggressive counter puncher but he is actually a aggressive preemptive puncher. His stated philosophy is to hit first. A favorite method to accuse the opponent of doing the very thing he is doing or looks like he will be accused of doing. Classic shadow projection which he then uses as a excuses for his behavior. I can be "crooked" because my opponent is "crooked".

...Its who the man is and the history your trying to change

You've got it wrong, and I doubt your "Shadow" paper got a good grade. In Construction Law.many subs send change orders to the CM that are unjustified. Unless the sub submitted a request in writing and received authorization beforehand, then no change orders are to be attempted. IOW, Trump sees all of these scams constantly and they may end up in court. Mostly, the subs do some work, often done shoddily when they screwed up work in the first place to need corrective efforts, at all. Just because Trump faces a Construction lawsuit does not mean he did a thing wrong. Trump is sharp, and his Construction contracts spell out the subs' legal rights. I find it unusual for there to many things to go against him in any court.

The conflation of the number of suits go up, as the labor force steps in, when their own company screws them over and doesn't pay them. Yeah, the Sub will blame the CM and claim they weren't the problem, and most workers may believe them and then forever badmouth the innocent CM. I've seen it in Vegas, renovating casinos, and see how it is usually the subs that are the problem. When the CM screws up, it doesn't go to court.

Another aspect is the "Money Bags" approach - where something happens that is usually accidental or unforeseeable, and the company that should be sued for supplying sub-par materials has no money, so all suits are aimed at the owner or CM. Truman said, "The buck stops here," and many people step up to cover underlings who needed more supervision. Since Trump has always used many minority companies and given responsibility to less experienced women bosses, such problems may occur more often, just because he's broken the glass ceiling many times. To my thinking, this mindset is a good thing - not a negative.

BTW, Trump is not "over aggressive" in business. That label comes from those who start the problem, because in his books which you cited incorrectly, he doesn't "hit first" he just doesn't turn the other cheek, but then fights back twice as hard.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDrake on January 29, 2020, 04:36:57 PM
He renegs on deals. It's documented. I've cited some of it earlier in this thread. These are not debatable change orders. This was a negotiated deal, and if Trump thinks he has the power to force someone to take a worse deal after the fact, he's all for it. He has no system of ethics that I can determine, it's all about dominance.

Quote
Last month, Golf.com reported that President Trump’s 2018 club championship at the Trump International Golf Club in West Palm Beach, Florida, may not have been totally legitimate. Though a plaque at the club lists the president as the victor, the championship was actually won by a hedge fund manager named Ted Virtue. Trump didn’t even compete in the event, but when he ran into Virtue at the club on a later date, he challenged him to an impromptu nine-hole match for the right to the title. Virtue couldn’t not accept. Trump won. The title was his.

He does it because he can, and that's just when he has ego at stake. That's not "being a good business man", it is being a total dick. The USA today article makes it clear that other real estate developers don't come close to Trump's numbers.

Quote
the number of cases in which Trump is involved is extraordinary. For comparison, USA TODAY analyzed the legal involvement for five top real-estate business executives: Edward DeBartolo, shopping-center developer and former San Francisco 49ers owner; Donald Bren, Irvine Company chairman and owner; Stephen Ross, Time Warner Center developer; Sam Zell, Chicago real-estate magnate; and Larry Silverstein, a New York developer famous for his involvement in the World Trade Center properties.

To maintain an apples-to-apples comparison, only actions that used the developers' names were included. The analysis found Trump has been involved in more legal skirmishes than all five of the others — combined.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: rightleft22 on January 29, 2020, 05:46:11 PM
Quote
BTW, Trump is not "over aggressive" in business

I didn't say trump was over aggressive only that he was aggressive
nor did I say his business practices practice of punching first and aggressively sewing was illegal or wrong. they are quite effective
I only said that he does these things and that it is part of his philosophy.  punch first, punch hard.

Personally I would not do business with such a person and many that have, have regretted it.

With the topic of shadow integration and projection.. I don't have enough time
However the case has been made that Trump has done very little shadow integration and so tends to project it onto the 'other'.

His entrance to accept the GOP nomination was classic, he show the world exactly what he was. And then his favorite scorpion and old woman story


Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: wmLambert on January 29, 2020, 06:03:07 PM
Quote from: The Drake
...the number of cases in which Trump is involved is extraordinary. For comparison, USA TODAY analyzed the legal involvement for five top real-estate business executives: Edward DeBartolo, shopping-center developer and former San Francisco 49ers owner; Donald Bren, Irvine Company chairman and owner; Stephen Ross, Time Warner Center developer; Sam Zell, Chicago real-estate magnate; and Larry Silverstein, a New York developer famous for his involvement in the World Trade Center properties.

I think USA Today confused owners with Construction Managers. Silverstein may be involved with WTC - but Tishman was the CM for the new Freedom Center. CMs field the workaday lawsuits, the owners are insulated.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Seriati on January 29, 2020, 06:13:32 PM
Quote
To maintain an apples-to-apples comparison, only actions that used the developers' names were included. The analysis found Trump has been involved in more legal skirmishes than all five of the others — combined.

I should note that limiting just to actions that used the developer's names does not seem like it's remotely designed to actually make it "apples to apples" when compared to anything that mentions Trump or any of his companies.  Also, unless they have casinos they should have excluded those cases, in fact to compare him to "real estate developers" they should have limited it to just real estate development (which they did not). 

They also should have distinguished based on filed by and filed against.  Whether Trump is more litigious (which he is) doesn't bear on whether he's sued more often.

I'd be curious to hear, which they didn't explain, how many companies each of them have, how many other pies they played in.  We already know they weren't celebrities at the same level.

In any event, I noted that when I read it the article and probably should have addressed it.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDeamon on January 29, 2020, 07:14:11 PM
Quote
To maintain an apples-to-apples comparison, only actions that used the developers' names were included. The analysis found Trump has been involved in more legal skirmishes than all five of the others — combined.

Uh, yeah, about that....
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Wayward Son on February 03, 2020, 03:23:16 PM
"Congratulations to the Kansas City Chiefs on a great game, and a fantastic comeback, under immense pressure. You represented the Great State of Kansas and, in fact, the entire USA, so very well. Our Country is PROUD OF YOU!"--current President Donald J. Trump

"It’s Missouri you stone cold idiot."--former Senator Claire McCaskill.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: ScottF on February 03, 2020, 04:31:02 PM
The charitable interpretation would be he just rattled out Kansas in the moment, that he probably knew that on reflection but fired, then aimed. That's how I interpreted Obama saying he'd visited 57 states - assumed he meant 47 and misspoke.

Or, he actually is a stone-cold idiot. Which, if true, does not speak well to how thoroughly he's thrashing the opposition.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDrake on February 03, 2020, 06:21:21 PM
Except that this is written communication - sort of. This is why normal Presidents and most CEOs have a whole communications department to avoid looking like stone cold idiots.

No wonder Trump likes Musk so much. They both just blurt out whatever they feel at the moment without reviewing it.

Fox was ready with a defence.

Quote
After reading aloud Trump’s corrected tweet that said the Chiefs represented “the Great State of Missouri” very well, Doocy acknowledged that Trump had previously shared a post in which he erroneously seemed to believe the team was located in Kansas. The Fox host, meanwhile, already had an excuse ready for the president.

“Earlier, apparently, he had sent out a tweet that said congratulations to the people of Kansas,” Doocy said. “Kansas City is in Kansas, and it is also in Missouri.”

They weren't the only ones. Despite where the football team plays, we get this.

Quote
American Conservative Union chairman Matt Schlapp, a Trump sycophant whose wife works for the White House, chastised the “East Coast establishment” for not knowing about the existence of Kansas City, Kansas.

The President, for once, did not double down on this and deleted the tweet. It does show the unlimited lengths that his supporters will go to in order to defend absolutely everything he does wrong.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: DonaldD on February 03, 2020, 07:18:27 PM
Donald J Trump:
Quote
When President Obama said that he has been to "57 States," very little mention in Fake News Media. Can you imagine if I said that...story of the year!
Ummm...
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDrake on February 03, 2020, 08:12:15 PM
If Obama had tweeted.

Just finished exhausting trip to all 57 states. Loved in every one of them!

I bet that would have got a Lot of attention.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: yossarian22c on February 03, 2020, 09:01:49 PM
Donald J Trump:
Quote
When President Obama said that he has been to "57 States," very little mention in Fake News Media. Can you imagine if I said that...story of the year!
Ummm...

There was a big deal made of it. I remember it, and I don’t listen to right wing news. Obama defused it with a little self deprecating humor and the explanation that there were 57 democratic primaries because the dnc allows the territories to vote.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDeamon on February 03, 2020, 10:39:06 PM
Except that this is written communication - sort of. This is why normal Presidents and most CEOs have a whole communications department to avoid looking like stone cold idiots.

No wonder Trump likes Musk so much. They both just blurt out whatever they feel at the moment without reviewing it.

Fox was ready with a defence.

Quote
After reading aloud Trump’s corrected tweet that said the Chiefs represented “the Great State of Missouri” very well, Doocy acknowledged that Trump had previously shared a post in which he erroneously seemed to believe the team was located in Kansas. The Fox host, meanwhile, already had an excuse ready for the president.

“Earlier, apparently, he had sent out a tweet that said congratulations to the people of Kansas,” Doocy said. “Kansas City is in Kansas, and it is also in Missouri.”

They weren't the only ones. Despite where the football team plays, we get this.

Quote
American Conservative Union chairman Matt Schlapp, a Trump sycophant whose wife works for the White House, chastised the “East Coast establishment” for not knowing about the existence of Kansas City, Kansas.

The President, for once, did not double down on this and deleted the tweet. It does show the unlimited lengths that his supporters will go to in order to defend absolutely everything he does wrong.

To be fair, people thinking Kansas City is in Kansas is a VERY COMMON gaffe for people to make. Of course, many Americans also have a hard time identifying Michigan on a map without assistance.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDrake on February 04, 2020, 01:06:17 PM
A lot of people can't identify which state is Vermont and which is New Hampshire. But they're not the GD President of the United States.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Crunch on February 04, 2020, 10:37:12 PM
Where is the list of topics the president is supposed to be an expert in? I’d be interested in seeing that.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDrake on February 05, 2020, 10:32:54 AM
Where is the list of topics the president is supposed to be an expert in? I’d be interested in seeing that.

Unreal. He doesn't have to be an expert, he just needs to rely on those who are. Or Google. The first search result is "Kansas city, city in Missouri"

But I'm sure you'd defend Pelosi too if she made the same error.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Crunch on February 05, 2020, 10:39:24 AM
I have defended against such slips many times for many politicians. When you speak so much, especially off the cuff, it’s easy to say things that are inaccurate or just plain ridiculous. Sooner or later, all of them do it. If it makes you feel good to pretend otherwise, knock yourself out.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDrake on February 05, 2020, 11:04:06 AM
It wasn't speaking. I'd possibly issue a pass on that. It was typed. Written. Spell check and everything. I'm surprised MO didn't autocomplete.

One of my favorite gaffes was John Kerry purporting to be a Red Sox fan and being asked who his favorite player was. His response mangled two players names together. He was soundly ridiculed for it, and deservedly so.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDrake on February 05, 2020, 11:15:13 AM
Let's also recall that Trump has one of the greatest memories of all time, so he should probably be able to name which state each NFL team plays in. I'd bet a lot of fifth graders could.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Wayward Son on February 05, 2020, 11:17:44 AM
Where is the list of topics the president is supposed to be an expert in? I’d be interested in seeing that.

Oh, please, Crunch.  How could anyone create such a list?

Remember, the President's a genius.  He said so himself.  Not just a genius, a stable genius.  He's the man who plays 4D chess when the Democrats are playing checkers, remember?  This is a man who blows your intellect away, our only hope to Make America Great Again (c).  A man who knows that all scientists and climatologists are dead wrong just by gut instinct.  Who knows economics better than all the economists combined.  He actually corrects NOAA about the possible paths of hurricanes!  You cannot comprehend how much smarter he is than you with your poor average intellect.

When you're that smart, you can't make a list of everything he's an expert in.  He's an expert in everything. 

Including, apparently, geography and NFL teams. :)
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDrake on February 05, 2020, 11:36:52 AM
Check the big list of everything Trump is an expert in.

https://www.axios.com/everything-trump-says-he-knows-more-about-than-anybody-b278b592-cff0-47dc-a75f-5767f42bcf1e.html
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Crunch on February 05, 2020, 11:53:32 AM
It wasn't speaking. I'd possibly issue a pass on that. It was typed. Written. Spell check and everything. I'm surprised MO didn't autocomplete.

One of my favorite gaffes was John Kerry purporting to be a Red Sox fan and being asked who his favorite player was. His response mangled two players names together. He was soundly ridiculed for it, and deservedly so.

It was on Twitter. Typing out something in a ad him communication is not a magical filter.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDrake on February 05, 2020, 12:11:54 PM
I use twitter professionally. I review and proofread it prior to posting, I double check facts, and I think about tone. I have never tweeted "covfefe" and I don't have to worry about starting a war or tanking the stock market.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Crunch on February 05, 2020, 12:41:29 PM
Oh, you use Twitter professionallly. That changes everything. Probably should have led with that one.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDrake on February 05, 2020, 12:55:48 PM
Good god. For professional purposes. As opposed to some stoner pouring his deep thoughts straight from addled brain to keyboard.

A president should never engage in ad hoc communication. Never. That's how you wind up with ad hoc policy changes and ad hoc foreign relations.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: ScottF on February 05, 2020, 02:19:24 PM
A president should never engage in ad hoc communication. Never. That's how you wind up with ad hoc policy changes and ad hoc foreign relations.

Disagree. I kind of enjoy seeing that a human exists behind the desk, even if it spouts nonsense and steps on a rake now and then.

Is there a particular policy (foreign relation or otherwise) that has changed ad hoc as a result of Trump's tweets?
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDrake on February 05, 2020, 02:33:50 PM
Well, there was this:

Quote
We have defeated ISIS in Syria, my only reason for being there during the Trump Presidency.

Quote
Several lawmakers said Congress received no advance notice of Trump’s announcement, leaving them fuming and scratching their heads.

“I don’t know what they’ve done, but this is chaos,” Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.), a staunch Trump ally and Armed Services Committee member, told reporters, adding that he planned to discuss the matter with Defense Secretary James Mattis.

Transgender DOD policy.

I refer to these as ad-hoc, because often nobody in the administration had any idea these things were coming. I can't say if it was something Trump had been carefully deliberating in his own head for a long time. These are not the only examples.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Pete at Home on February 05, 2020, 04:44:56 PM
Good god. For professional purposes. As opposed to some stoner pouring his deep thoughts straight from addled brain to keyboard.

A president should never engage in ad hoc communication. Never. That's how you wind up with ad hoc policy changes and ad hoc foreign relations.

Clinton turned an ad hoc inten blow non into an ad hoc war with Serbia and as hoc feud with Putin
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Wayward Son on February 24, 2020, 06:05:55 PM
Quote
The Coronavirus is very much under control in the USA. We are in contact with everyone and all relevant countries. CDC & World Health have been working hard and very smart. Stock Market starting to look very good to me!

Tweet from the President on Monday, Feb. 24--the day the stock market dropped 1031 points, one of the largest drop in points on a single-day, and after dropping 225 points on Friday and 128 points on Thursday.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Crunch on February 25, 2020, 07:55:17 AM
Ever heard of “buy on the dip”? For smart investors, like Trump, the stock market is presenting a great opportunity right now. There are no guarantees but cornavirus is driving stocks down and when it finally disappears the underlying market strength has a very goid chance of rebounding.

Any investors not blinded by orange man bad recognizes the opportunity.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDrake on February 25, 2020, 08:32:26 AM
So on black Thursday, I guess Hoover should have got on the radio and talked about how great the stock market looked.  ::)
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Seriati on February 25, 2020, 10:42:12 AM
No not in 1929, information moved too slow to prevent panic.  But now, yes with the speed of information combating panic is mostly about projecting optimism.  Crunch is mostly right, even tragedies open up doors for new opportunities and the markets are likely to rebound if Coronavirus doesn't live up to the fears, and who knows how much the fear premium is at this point.

Frankly, panic is just about the only thing that can tank the markets these days, with panic triggering more panic.  Trump's words don't fully fit the situation, but he's right that there's no reason the market shouldn't stay strong.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDrake on February 25, 2020, 11:41:29 AM
I get the idea that a leader should project optimism, sometimes more than is warranted, whether that's a president, a CEO, or a coach.

But it usually comes with an acknowledgement that things are temporarily bad. Like "yes, we've lost five games in a row, but it's been a tough bunch of opponents lately and we've got a homestand coming up where we expect to turn it around.

Wild optimism has the opposite effect than the one that is intended. A blatant attempt to ignore recent setbacks reduces confidence.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Seriati on February 25, 2020, 12:36:22 PM
But it usually comes with an acknowledgement that things are temporarily bad. Like "yes, we've lost five games in a row, but it's been a tough bunch of opponents lately and we've got a homestand coming up where we expect to turn it around.

Except that's not a great analogy.  A sports team that's lost 5 in a row usually has done so for a substantive reason.  Hope and optimism only go so far in trying to get  a 16 seed to beat a 1 seed.

The market?  It pretty much is a barometer for the anticipation of the public mood.  The primary mover in any big change up or down is almost completely hype or panic and not fundamentals.   And some of that is rationale, serious players will long term goals, will "panic sell" if they believe that the market is going to panic.  Sometimes they've already shorted the position and knowing that the "panic" makes it easier for them to generate a return.

Optimism is a signal to them that the panic may not occur (based on the psychology of trying to predict he public mood), as well as, calming down people that may have panic sold into those losses.

Quote
Wild optimism has the opposite effect than the one that is intended. A blatant attempt to ignore recent setbacks reduces confidence.

Except what you're saying here is far from reality.  The market fundamentals are incredibly strong, the actual setbacks that come from the economic disruptions to supply chains originating in China are far less than has been priced into the market by panic. 

Can't say it helps or not, but it's probably the only thing that could.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Crunch on February 25, 2020, 01:39:51 PM
So on black Thursday, I guess Hoover should have got on the radio and talked about how great the stock market looked.  ::)

Was Black Thursday driven largely off a infection that was limited mostly to Asia resulting in supply chain disruptions? If it was, then you may have a point here.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDrake on February 28, 2020, 12:58:37 PM
"It's going to disappear. One day it's like a miracle, it will disappear,"
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: yossarian22c on February 28, 2020, 01:08:08 PM
"It's going to disappear. One day it's like a miracle, it will disappear. And from our shores, you know, it could get worse before it gets better. Could maybe go away. We'll see what happens. Nobody really knows."

Start with a definitive statement and end with "Nobody really knows." He must be the greatest, most amazing, talented, and gifted communicator ever to hold the office of president, nay the greatest speaker of all time.  ::)
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: wmLambert on February 28, 2020, 08:36:30 PM
...He must be the greatest, most amazing, talented, and gifted communicator ever to hold the office of president, nay the greatest speaker of all time.

That may be exactly what he is. His speeches resonate to huge crowds, and he plays them like a Maestro, doesn't he? It seems that only those who project their own erroneous preconceptions onto him, think he is a poor communicator. Face it, he is brilliant at distilling phrases and catchwords into impactful ideas. Jeb Bush was destroyed by being called "low energy."

Democrats have owned this position over the years with highly researched clichés and catchphrases that are instantly understood, with any refutations taking fsr too long to be effective. They have focus groups and think tanks who work hard to come up with just the right words to skewer their opponents. Who can forget when they came up with the term, "gravitas" to assign to their candidate? Instantly that word was everywhere in the media and from Democrat talking heads. What happened is also revealing. The polls showed that the people believed their opponent had more gravitas than their candidate, so the term vanished just as immediately. Trump trumps that. The pols hate him for it, but the people appreciate it.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on March 01, 2020, 01:23:54 PM
"It's going to disappear. One day it's like a miracle, it will disappear. And from our shores, you know, it could get worse before it gets better. Could maybe go away. We'll see what happens. Nobody really knows."

So many questions, so many answers.

Quote
Start with a definitive statement and end with "Nobody really knows." He must be the greatest, most amazing, talented, and gifted communicator ever to hold the office of president, nay the greatest speaker of all time.  ::)

As people would say about Mr. Ed, the other stable genius, you should say, "Neigh, the greatest speaker of all time."
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Crunch on March 02, 2020, 04:32:58 PM
Quote
The Coronavirus is very much under control in the USA. We are in contact with everyone and all relevant countries. CDC & World Health have been working hard and very smart. Stock Market starting to look very good to me!

Tweet from the President on Monday, Feb. 24--the day the stock market dropped 1031 points, one of the largest drop in points on a single-day, and after dropping 225 points on Friday and 128 points on Thursday.

This aged well.

Stock market just shot up 5.1% with its biggest gain since 2009, closing 1.293 points higher. Also, it’s the largest ever gain for the Dow.

Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Grant on March 02, 2020, 04:52:44 PM
1/13/12

A STATEMENT FROM DONALD TRUMP, CHAIRMAN AND PRESIDENT OF TRUMP ORGANIZATION

While Barrack Obama is slashing the military, he is also negotiating with our sworn enemy the Taliban--who facilitated 9/11.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: ScottF on March 02, 2020, 04:53:34 PM
Rational minds are prevailing for now. There's going to be a correction, I just don't think it will be quite as emotionally driven or as volatile as last weeks corona tank.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Grant on March 02, 2020, 04:54:20 PM
2/1/12

A STATEMENT FROM DONALD TRUMP, CHAIRMAN AND PRESIDENT OF TRUMP ORGANIZATION

He, Barrack Obama, wants to release 5 senior Taliban detainees back to the Taliban.  The Taliban out negotiates him!
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Crunch on March 02, 2020, 05:03:12 PM
I bet you’d say the same thing about doing deals with Japan.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDrake on March 02, 2020, 05:36:33 PM
Quote
The Coronavirus is very much under control in the USA. We are in contact with everyone and all relevant countries. CDC & World Health have been working hard and very smart. Stock Market starting to look very good to me!

Tweet from the President on Monday, Feb. 24--the day the stock market dropped 1031 points, one of the largest drop in points on a single-day, and after dropping 225 points on Friday and 128 points on Thursday.

Give me $12, and I'll give you back $5 and you tell me how great that was. In the end, it wouldn't even matter if it bounced all the way back, it was still a stupid thing to say.
This aged well.

Stock market just shot up 5.1% with its biggest gain since 2009, closing 1.293 points higher. Also, it’s the largest ever gain for the Dow.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on March 02, 2020, 05:54:18 PM
Quote
The Coronavirus is very much under control in the USA. We are in contact with everyone and all relevant countries. CDC & World Health have been working hard and very smart. Stock Market starting to look very good to me!

Tweet from the President on Monday, Feb. 24--the day the stock market dropped 1031 points, one of the largest drop in points on a single-day, and after dropping 225 points on Friday and 128 points on Thursday.

Give me $12, and I'll give you back $5 and you tell me how great that was. In the end, it wouldn't even matter if it bounced all the way back, it was still a stupid thing to say.
This aged well.

Stock market just shot up 5.1% with its biggest gain since 2009, closing 1.293 points higher. Also, it’s the largest ever gain for the Dow.

This is akin to the reasoning that not only is there no global warming, but there is in fact global cooling that will lead to the next ice age.  All you need to do is very carefully tiptoe through the facts until you find one you like.  It's like picking a flower in a garden, almost.  You never pick one that isn't pretty.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: wmLambert on March 02, 2020, 06:41:02 PM
...This is akin to the reasoning that not only is there no global warming, but there is in fact global cooling that will lead to the next ice age.  All you need to do is very carefully tiptoe through the facts until you find one you like.  It's like picking a flower in a garden, almost.  You never pick one that isn't pretty.

You can say that about anything, but it is still a debate fallacy. When facts challenge disinformation, you cannot accept disinformation because it makes you feel better. If you are rebutted, you stay rebutted until you can prove yourself correct, not just PC. I've looked at research from actual scientists in the field, and not a one endorses the models which are the basis for all the Global Warming "facts." Science, not me, says we are in an ice age, albeit also in a transitory interglacial period within that ice age. The world is going to follow its course, which is why China is purchasing land near the equator, anticipating cooling. They want to have land that is not frozen to grow crops. When Real Politik shows itself like that, someone's putting their money where their mouths are.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on March 02, 2020, 07:15:27 PM
...This is akin to the reasoning that not only is there no global warming, but there is in fact global cooling that will lead to the next ice age.  All you need to do is very carefully tiptoe through the facts until you find one you like.  It's like picking a flower in a garden, almost.  You never pick one that isn't pretty.

You can say that about anything, but it is still a debate fallacy. When facts challenge disinformation, you cannot accept disinformation because it makes you feel better. If you are rebutted, you stay rebutted until you can prove yourself correct, not just PC. I've looked at research from actual scientists in the field, and not a one endorses the models which are the basis for all the Global Warming "facts." Science, not me, says we are in an ice age, albeit also in a transitory interglacial period within that ice age. The world is going to follow its course, which is why China is purchasing land near the equator, anticipating cooling. They want to have land that is not frozen to grow crops. When Real Politik shows itself like that, someone's putting their money where their mouths are.

Geez, you are the PERFECT example of what I'm talking about :D.  Science says it, eh? :) :)
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: wmLambert on March 02, 2020, 09:43:26 PM
...you are the PERFECT example of what I'm talking about :D.  Science says it, eh? :) :)

Yes, Science does tell it all. Here are 32 pages of forum comments on the science: https://ai-jane.org/thread-11738.html

...and here: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/275280922_Phanerozoic_Global_Temperature_Curve
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on March 03, 2020, 05:01:46 AM
...you are the PERFECT example of what I'm talking about :D.  Science says it, eh? :) :)

Yes, Science does tell it all. Here are 32 pages of forum comments on the science: https://ai-jane.org/thread-11738.html

...and here: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/275280922_Phanerozoic_Global_Temperature_Curve

"Researchgate" is a sort of scientific information clearing house, but it may not be all that it's cracked up to be.  Here's an article from NCBI (NIH) about the site:  ResearchGate is no longer reliable: leniency towards ghost journals may decrease its impact on the scientific community. (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27924967)

As for the article you reference, Researchgate points out the following:

Quote
ResearchGate has not been able to resolve any references for this publication.

Yay, science!  As I said, you just have to pick carefully to find what you're looking for.  Meanwhile, the earth keeps getting hotter and glaciers are melting faster than ever.  OTOH, although it's been a very mild winter here in Michigan, one day a couple of weeks ago the temperature did get down into the teens.  So, maybe an ice age really is coming, bless your heart.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDrake on March 03, 2020, 04:32:17 PM
Quote
The Coronavirus is very much under control in the USA. We are in contact with everyone and all relevant countries. CDC & World Health have been working hard and very smart. Stock Market starting to look very good to me!

Tweet from the President on Monday, Feb. 24--the day the stock market dropped 1031 points, one of the largest drop in points on a single-day, and after dropping 225 points on Friday and 128 points on Thursday.


This aged well.

Stock market just shot up 5.1% with its biggest gain since 2009, closing 1.293 points higher. Also, it’s the largest ever gain for the Dow.

This aged well.

"Each of the three major stock indices ended Tuesday’s session off more than 2.5%. The Dow shed nearly 800 points, reversing Monday’s more than 1200-point advance."
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Wayward Son on March 03, 2020, 05:50:05 PM
One must remember that the 3rd largest gain for the Dow, percentage-wise, occurred on October 30, 1929--two days after "Black Monday"--where the Dow gained 12.84 percent of its value.  Of course, that didn't last too long. :)

Exactly how the stock market will react to COVID-19 is still up in the air.  As Electoral-Vote put it this morning (https://www.electoral-vote.com/evp2020/Pres/Maps/Mar03.html#item-5):

Quote
Following a disastrous week last week, the Dow Jones had a nice little rebound on Monday, posting a 1,294-point gain, the largest in history by points. That doesn't erase all of the 3,583 points it lost in the seven previous days, but it does erase a big chunk of it.

So, what comes next for this roller coaster of a stock market? Well, the experts agree that there is definitely a possibility that the Dow Jones might just go up or down, or it may stay steady, but it is absolutely certain that either something good or something bad is about to happen unless, of course, nothing much happens at all. You can take that to the bank.

What is certainly true, though, is that any person who thinks the stock market is "starting to look very good to me" is living in his own little la-la land. :)
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Wayward Son on March 13, 2020, 10:50:32 AM
Just FYI: (https://www.electoral-vote.com/evp2020/Pres/Maps/Mar13.html#item-1)

Quote
(T)he stock market had yet another lousy day, with the Dow Jones dropping 1,868 points. That would be the fourth time since Feb. 27 that the Index has exceeded pre-2020 record for a one-day loss (−1,175.21 points on Feb. 5, 2018). At the close of business Thursday, the Dow was at 21,200.62. On the day that Donald Trump took office, it was at 19,732.40. So, most of the growth that he crowed about on Twitter has evaporated. In fact, if we account for inflation, it has entirely evaporated. The $11.5 trillion that market gained after Jan. 20, 2017, is now all gone.

So if the stock market doesn't make a fast recovery (which is still a possibility), Trump's proudly-touted economic success "is now all gone."
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Crunch on March 13, 2020, 10:52:48 AM
That is the goal here.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Crunch on March 13, 2020, 10:56:50 AM
One must remember that the 3rd largest gain for the Dow, percentage-wise, occurred on October 30, 1929--two days after "Black Monday"--where the Dow gained 12.84 percent of its value.  Of course, that didn't last too long. :)

Exactly how the stock market will react to COVID-19 is still up in the air.  As Electoral-Vote put it this morning (https://www.electoral-vote.com/evp2020/Pres/Maps/Mar03.html#item-5):

Quote
Following a disastrous week last week, the Dow Jones had a nice little rebound on Monday, posting a 1,294-point gain, the largest in history by points. That doesn't erase all of the 3,583 points it lost in the seven previous days, but it does erase a big chunk of it.

So, what comes next for this roller coaster of a stock market? Well, the experts agree that there is definitely a possibility that the Dow Jones might just go up or down, or it may stay steady, but it is absolutely certain that either something good or something bad is about to happen unless, of course, nothing much happens at all. You can take that to the bank.

What is certainly true, though, is that any person who thinks the stock market is "starting to look very good to me" is living in his own little la-la land. :)

Have you actually read what you quoted? I think they're messing with you and you didn't get the joke.

The stock market shooting up and down like this is an options trader's wet dream.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Wayward Son on March 13, 2020, 11:56:22 AM
That is the goal here.

No, it's what we've been warning you guys about for years now.  He isn't in control.  He's just lucky.  And one day, his luck will run out.

That day may have come. :(
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Wayward Son on March 13, 2020, 11:57:59 AM
Quote
Have you actually read what you quoted? I think they're messing with you and you didn't get the joke.

The stock market shooting up and down like this is an options trader's wet dream.

I'm glad you and Trump and having such a good time.  Good luck in riding the waves and making lots and lots of money as $11 trillion disappears from the market!

The rest of us have 401Ks.  :'(
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Crunch on March 13, 2020, 12:04:40 PM
That is the goal here.

No, it's what we've been warning you guys about for years now.  He isn't in control.  He's just lucky.  And one day, his luck will run out.

That day may have come. :(

You will be OK. Might want to stop watching CNN and MSNBC for a while.

Quote
Have you actually read what you quoted? I think they're messing with you and you didn't get the joke.

The stock market shooting up and down like this is an options trader's wet dream.

I'm glad you and Trump and having such a good time.  Good luck in riding the waves and making lots and lots of money as $11 trillion disappears from the market!

The rest of us have 401Ks.  :'(

It will come back. It's like you have no historical awareness beyond the last few weeks.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDrake on March 13, 2020, 12:42:40 PM
And when the market was declining in the Obama years, were you saying "Don't worry, it will come back"?
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Crunch on March 13, 2020, 12:45:20 PM
Yes, I was. I kept investing in my 401k like normal knowing I was getting good deals and they would climb back up. Just like it always has.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: NobleHunter on March 13, 2020, 01:12:22 PM
Or if it doesn't, you've got bigger things to worry about.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDrake on March 13, 2020, 01:17:27 PM
Yes, I was. I kept investing in my 401k like normal knowing I was getting good deals and they would climb back up. Just like it always has.

I somehow doubt that was your narrative, even though it may have been your investment strategy.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Crunch on March 13, 2020, 02:29:05 PM
Yes, I was. I kept investing in my 401k like normal knowing I was getting good deals and they would climb back up. Just like it always has.

I somehow doubt that was your narrative, even though it may have been your investment strategy.

It's my narrative and strategy now and was during the housing bubble meltdown, 9/11, Y2K, dot com bust, all the way back to the time I learned about investing. This is a basic investment tip. Really, it is. I'm not inventing anything here. You want to pretend otherwise, knock yourself out, kid.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: DonaldD on March 13, 2020, 02:42:18 PM
A virus had the goal of tanking recent stock market gains in order to make Trump look bad... That's a very specific virus...
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Crunch on March 13, 2020, 03:07:44 PM
And, of course, you come in to make up something that nobody ever said.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: DonaldD on March 13, 2020, 03:48:19 PM
It's far more believable than this: "That is the goal here" where presumably you believe that the whole world, including China and Italy, were out to tank the stock markets by, you know, dying just so the stock market gains from the past 3 years could disappear and so Trump could lose a talking point.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Wayward Son on March 13, 2020, 04:43:00 PM
Quote
You will be OK. Might want to stop watching CNN and MSNBC for a while.

Sorry.  Don't like the taste of koolaide. ;)  :D

Quote
It will come back. It's like you have no historical awareness beyond the last few weeks.

Oh, I know it will come back, although depending on how bad it is, I might retire first.  :'(

But for people who aren't options traders--like the vast majority of us--this is not a good thing.  It would behoove Trump to remember that when he talks about stuff.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Crunch on March 13, 2020, 06:15:25 PM
Stock market closed up 2000 points. Why are you guys not posting about that?  LOL
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Crunch on March 13, 2020, 06:16:41 PM
It's far more believable than this: "That is the goal here" where presumably you believe that the whole world, including China and Italy, were out to tank the stock markets by, you know, dying just so the stock market gains from the past 3 years could disappear and so Trump could lose a talking point.

Respect for doubling down on making things up. It’s a bold strategy, let’s see how it plays out.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDeamon on March 13, 2020, 07:36:55 PM
Or if it doesn't, you've got bigger things to worry about.

We're dealing with an economic upset that is placing a lot of uncertainty in the market, something markets HATE with a passion.

We're not dealing with an apocalypse. essential services are not going to suddenly stop(although Hospitals may be swamped to the point of being ineffective), life is going to go on. As most of the people/skills modern society needs in order to function should be able to ride this out with only a few weeks off work at the worst, it should recover unless people use this as an excuse to start doing some genuinely stupid, and destructive, stuff.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: ScottF on March 14, 2020, 01:26:17 AM
As most of the people/skills modern society needs in order to function should be able to ride this out with only a few weeks off work at the worst, it should recover unless people use this as an excuse to start doing some genuinely stupid, and destructive, stuff.

I fear this is a more legitimate possibility than logic would dictate.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDeamon on March 14, 2020, 04:11:33 AM
As most of the people/skills modern society needs in order to function should be able to ride this out with only a few weeks off work at the worst, it should recover unless people use this as an excuse to start doing some genuinely stupid, and destructive, stuff.

I fear this is a more legitimate possibility than logic would dictate.

Sadly, there is a real chance of that. However, there is no reason why this should be any more disruptive economically than the Spanish Influenza outbreak at the end of WW1(Remember, "The roaring 20's" followed not long after that). But that doesn't prevent the masses involved in the market from taking irrational measures that sends things tottering off in another direction.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDrake on March 14, 2020, 05:16:55 PM
It's a totally different global economy than 100 years ago. They didn't have airplanes se se?
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDeamon on March 14, 2020, 06:32:00 PM
It's a totally different global economy than 100 years ago. They didn't have airplanes se se?

Most of the workforce then was under 65.
Most of the workforce now is under 65.

The flu from 100 years ago was fatal in significant numbers of people in ALL age groups.
Covid-19 is only fatal in significant numbers of people in the 50 and over demographic, and from the latest infographic I saw, you have to be in your 70's before the fatality rate exceeds 4%.

Even the worst doomsday prognostications about social collapse due to pandemic called for a double-digit mortality rate, primarily involving those in the labor force. But as that kind of number is only seen in the 80 and older demographic, I highly doubt society is going to suffer an economic (or other) collapse from this.

That said, the global economy has been disrupted significantly enough this is likely to throw us into a global recession at a minimum, but it shouldn't take years to recover from it.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDrake on March 16, 2020, 11:40:45 AM
"It's a very contagious virus. It's incredible. But it's something we have tremendous control of"
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: DonaldD on March 18, 2020, 12:53:52 AM
Quote
I've always known... This is a real... This is a pandemic. I felt it was a pandemic long before it was called a pandemic
🤣🤣🤣
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: DonaldD on March 25, 2020, 03:48:02 PM
Quote
Easter is a very special day for me… and I see it sorta in that timeline that I’m thinking about… And I say wouldn’t it be great to have all of the churches full? You know the churches aren’t allowed - essentially - to have much of a congregation there...
The man is either pure evil or too stupid to breathe.  The only question is whether (which?) religious leaders will facilitate the slaughter of their congregants as a result of this foolishness.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on March 25, 2020, 04:53:37 PM
Quote
Easter is a very special day for me… and I see it sorta in that timeline that I’m thinking about… And I say wouldn’t it be great to have all of the churches full? You know the churches aren’t allowed - essentially - to have much of a congregation there...
The man is either pure evil or too stupid to breathe.  The only question is whether (which?) religious leaders will facilitate the slaughter of their congregants as a result of this foolishness.

And how many lambs will willingly go to the slaughter?  Are any Democratic leaders calling for people to congregate or jump back into the work force or social life at the risk of killing themselves and possibly their loved ones?  What is it about Republicans that lets them think that makes sense?
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDrake on March 25, 2020, 05:23:57 PM
Quote
Easter is a very special day for me… and I see it sorta in that timeline that I’m thinking about… And I say wouldn’t it be great to have all of the churches full? You know the churches aren’t allowed - essentially - to have much of a congregation there...
The man is either pure evil or too stupid to breathe.  The only question is whether (which?) religious leaders will facilitate the slaughter of their congregants as a result of this foolishness.

And how many lambs will willingly go to the slaughter?  Are any Democratic leaders calling for people to congregate or jump back into the work force or social life at the risk of killing themselves and possibly their loved ones?  What is it about Republicans that lets them think that makes sense?

How many other republicans are doing this? Who are they?
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Wayward Son on March 25, 2020, 05:53:46 PM
Quote
How many other republicans are doing this? Who are they?

Dennis Prager and Glen Beck are spouting off about its better to risk lives than to let "the country fall." (https://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2020/03/25/never-ever-follow-the-recommendations-of-ghouls/)  Not to mention this article from The Federalist. (https://thefederalist.com/2020/03/23/is-social-distancing-saving-lives-or-ruining-them/)
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on March 25, 2020, 05:54:29 PM
Quote
How many other republicans are doing this? Who are they?

Other than Kudlow and Mnuchin, it's a collection of "other" and "unnamed" Republican lawmakers and officials (e.g., in OMB).  It seems that they don't want to be known for telling Trump they want that.  There are also conservative economists including Richard Epstein, Steven Moore and Art Laffer who are "lobbying" Trump to end the shutdown.

I think that this "idea" is going nowhere, and even if Trump does make some policy pronouncement in the next few weeks, few Governors will go along.  Idiots are always free to kill themselves, their families and people they don't know, because "Live free or die...Death isn't the worst of evils" applies to everyone around them, as well as themselves.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Wayward Son on March 25, 2020, 06:15:01 PM
Someone needs to remind Prager of what old George Patton said: "No dumb bastard ever won a war by going out and dying for his country. He won it by making some other dumb bastard die for his country.”

Expecting people to die for our economy makes just as much sense.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: DonaldD on March 25, 2020, 07:41:30 PM
I'm pretty Trump's premature strategy is pretty much predicated on expecting other people to die for his economy...
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: wmLambert on March 25, 2020, 10:30:05 PM
...Dennis Prager and Glen Beck are spouting off about its better to risk lives than to let "the country fall."

Perhaps the whole statements should be commented upon, not just a pejorative headline. What they both were talking about was the effect of long term economic disaster, and how many could be predicted to die from that, when less than 1% of Covid-19 patients do. Yes the onslaught now is bad, but it is not the only bad thing that can happen.

It's like the so-called journalist who asked Trump, "How many deaths are enough for you?" His reply was, "Any deaths are too many."
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDeamon on March 26, 2020, 12:03:20 AM
Quote
Easter is a very special day for me… and I see it sorta in that timeline that I’m thinking about… And I say wouldn’t it be great to have all of the churches full? You know the churches aren’t allowed - essentially - to have much of a congregation there...
The man is either pure evil or too stupid to breathe.  The only question is whether (which?) religious leaders will facilitate the slaughter of their congregants as a result of this foolishness.

And how many lambs will willingly go to the slaughter?  Are any Democratic leaders calling for people to congregate or jump back into the work force or social life at the risk of killing themselves and possibly their loved ones?  What is it about Republicans that lets them think that makes sense?

How many other republicans are doing this? Who are they?

Not the Republican Governor of Idaho, he put the state on lockdown for 21 days effective today. Which means we'll still be on "stay at home" for Easter.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDrake on March 26, 2020, 01:24:06 AM
Bill gravel, in charge of my Texas County, is republican. Stay at home through apr 13. Not talking about cutting everybody loose then either.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on March 26, 2020, 06:13:28 AM
Ron Johnson isn't too worried (https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/19/politics/ron-johnson-coronavirus/index.html):

Quote
"I'm not denying what a nasty disease COVID-19 can be, and how it's obviously devastating to somewhere between 1 and 3.4 percent of the population. But that means 97 to 99 percent will get through this and develop immunities and will be able to move beyond this. But we don't shut down our economy because tens of thousands of people die on the highways. It's a risk we accept so we can move about. We don't shut down our economies because tens of thousands of people die from the common flu...
"...getting coronavirus is not a death sentence except for maybe no more than 3.4 percent of our population (and) I think probably far less."

Quote
It's like the so-called journalist who asked Trump, "How many deaths are enough for you?" His reply was, "Any deaths are too many."

So, where do you draw the line for when it becomes "too many"?  In a year when 30,000,000 people in the US catch the flu, about 30,000 will die.  That's about 0.1%.  The lowest estimates I've seen predict about 20,000,000 people will catch COVID-19 with about 1% fatality rate.  That works out to an optimistic expectation that 200,000 people will die.  Is that too little, too much, or just about right?
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDeamon on March 26, 2020, 06:28:07 AM
For other comparisons(US numbers, as per wiki):
37,806 people died in automotive accidents in 2016.
47,173 suicides happened in 2017 (mostly with firearms)
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on March 26, 2020, 06:39:34 AM
Not sure where you're going with those numbers and why you picked them.  It's a well-known fact that people die.  Without seatbelts the death toll from car accidents would be much higher.  With stricter gun laws the suicide rate would be much lower.  About 657,000 die from heart disease each year and another 600,000 from cancer.  We don't have annual statistics for COVID-19 for the obvious reason, but if the most optimistic estimate is 200,000, where does that fit with the other causes/numbers?
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDrake on March 26, 2020, 10:33:36 AM
Are automotive deaths doubling every 2.5 days?
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: ScottF on March 26, 2020, 11:17:20 AM
Definitely not these days.

I think the larger question is the long term damage we're willing to absorb to mitigate the estimated/modeled deaths (e.g. 50% unemployment, financial collapse, etc.).
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: wmLambert on March 26, 2020, 11:21:18 AM
Are automotive deaths doubling every 2.5 days?

Covid-19 cases are increasing as more catch it, but the percentage of deaths stay the same. Once the number of cases hits a high point, it will decrease, but the mortality percentage will stay the same.

I've heard that people are creating anti-bodies after catching the virus and recovering, and that their anti-bodies can be used to inoculate others. The only way to stop the mortality rate is to stop the spread and better treat the disease.

Thank God Trump is on top of this and doing what is right.

Joe? Not so much.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: yossarian22c on March 26, 2020, 11:26:18 AM
Definitely not these days.

I think the larger question is the long term damage we're willing to absorb to mitigate the estimated/modeled deaths (e.g. 50% unemployment, financial collapse, etc.).

There's an economic cost to letting it ravage through the country too. Workplaces that have to close due to employees calling in sick.

Here's the thing. If the feds write big enough checks all of the economic damage is temporary. Unless you consider the national debt to be of great concern, in which case Trump was already doing a lousy job, so who cares about it now - this is the one time spending 2-3 trillion propping the economy up for 2-3 months works.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: DonaldD on March 26, 2020, 11:31:23 AM
For other comparisons(US numbers, as per wiki):
37,806 people died in automotive accidents in 2016.
47,173 suicides happened in 2017 (mostly with firearms)
Fox News (https://www.foxnews.com/transcript/coronavirus-qa-drs-cirillo-and-nampiaparampil-answer-viewers-questions-on-special-report): "FAUCI: I think that's a false equivalency to compare traffic accidents with -- I mean, that's totally way out, that's really a false equivalency."
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: DonaldD on March 26, 2020, 11:45:32 AM
I've heard that people are creating anti-bodies after catching the virus and recovering, and that their anti-bodies can be used to inoculate others.

History of Vaccines: Passive Immunization (https://www.historyofvaccines.org/content/articles/passive-immunization):
Quote
Advantages and Disadvantages of Passive Immunization

Vaccines typically need time (weeks or months) to produce protective immunity in an individual and may require several doses over a certain period of time to achieve optimum protection. Passive immunization, however, has an advantage in that it is quick acting, producing an immune response within hours or days, faster than a vaccine. Additionally, passive immunization can override a deficient immune system, which is especially helpful in someone who does not respond to immunization.

Antibodies, however, have certain disadvantages. First, antibodies can be difficult and costly to produce. Although new techniques can help produce antibodies in the laboratory, in most cases antibodies to infectious diseases must be harvested from the blood of hundreds or thousands of human donors. Or, they must be obtained from the blood of immune animals (as with antibodies that neutralize snake venoms). In the case of antibodies harvested from animals, serious allergic reactions can develop in the recipient. Another disadvantage is that many antibody treatments must be given via intravenous injection, which is a more time-consuming and potentially complicated procedure than the injection of a vaccine. Finally, the immunity conferred by passive immunization is short lived: it does not lead to the formation of long-lasting memory immune cells.
Passive immunization is not particularly useful until the population of willing, recovered plasma donors exceeds those needing treatment by a factor of between 100 and 1000.  And that is quite aside from the cost.

Quote
Thank God Trump is on top of this and doing what is right. \
This would be funny, if it wasn't so sad.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: ScottF on March 26, 2020, 11:54:28 AM
No matter who was in office, every move they made would be criticized. You may think Trump is uniquely making errors that are obvious to everyone but that's your bubble.

If it was [insert your most capable/favorite leader] there would be an equal avalanche of peanut gallery comments, giving point-by-point critique on all the mistakes, just not from you.

The Trump situation is unique with regard to the media's unwavering focus to undermine or misrepresent all of his moves, good, bad and neutral. Even though the vast number of those "moves" that have any substance are being prescribed by likely the same experts [most capable leader] would have leveraged.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on March 26, 2020, 11:58:35 AM
Quote
Thank God Trump is on top of this and doing what is right.

Joe? Not so much.

I'll probably kick myself for asking this when I see your answer, but what should Joe be doing?
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on March 26, 2020, 12:02:28 PM
Quote
The Trump situation is unique with regard to the media's unwavering focus to undermine or misrepresent all of his moves, good, bad and neutral. Even though the vast number of those "moves" that have any substance are being prescribed by likely the same experts [most capable leader] would have leveraged.

You mistake the press being skeptical and critical for having a bias.  This isn't a unique situation for that reason. If there's one thing that every President has agreed on, it's that the press made their lives miserable.  Get that, every President.  It is unique in that we have a President who fudges the truth wherever and whenever he feels like it and hates to be contradicted or challenged when he does it.  His bad reputation precedes him wherever he goes.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDeamon on March 26, 2020, 12:48:34 PM
I've heard that people are creating anti-bodies after catching the virus and recovering, and that their anti-bodies can be used to inoculate others. The only way to stop the mortality rate is to stop the spread and better treat the disease.

Not quite. The antibodies can be used to help others fight off an active infection. But it won't grant anything akin to a limited immunity. This methodology has been known and used for decades. It's also resource intensive and fairly expensive, which is why it doesn't generally see much use.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDeamon on March 26, 2020, 01:01:02 PM
For other comparisons(US numbers, as per wiki):
37,806 people died in automotive accidents in 2016.
47,173 suicides happened in 2017 (mostly with firearms)
Fox News (https://www.foxnews.com/transcript/coronavirus-qa-drs-cirillo-and-nampiaparampil-answer-viewers-questions-on-special-report): "FAUCI: I think that's a false equivalency to compare traffic accidents with -- I mean, that's totally way out, that's really a false equivalency."

Eh, not really. Particularly when you get into the detail that virtually all motor vehicle accidents are preventable. As they almost invariably are the result of poor choices on the part of at least one of the vehicle operators involved. A lot of them come down to the simple expedient of the driver was either driving too fast for conditions, or not paying proper attention to the road. (Or didn't properly inspect their vehicle prior to using it--didn't know their tire was flat, properly maintain it(bald tires on a wet road, brakes which they know should have been replaced long ago), etc)

Which is somewhat apt with regards to Covid19 and the large-scale effort to curb community spread currently underway. A LOT of the cases now being seen were entirely preventable, if people had heeded medical advice from a month ago.

And like automotive accidents, there is a certain bar that society has created where we basically shrug and go "couldn't be helped."

However, unlike automotive accidents, covid19 has potential to be worse than that by a couple orders of magnitude. Also outside of mutli-vehicle pileups, individuals making poor choices on the road rarely leads to exponential growth curves in regards to near-term consequences with regards to fatalities.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDeamon on March 26, 2020, 01:07:02 PM
No matter who was in office, every move they made would be criticized. You may think Trump is uniquely making errors that are obvious to everyone but that's your bubble.

If it was [insert your most capable/favorite leader] there would be an equal avalanche of peanut gallery comments, giving point-by-point critique on all the mistakes, just not from you.

Agreed. It's part of why I went on something of a rant about the national stockpile situation the other day. No matter who was president, that was going to be an issue which was going to crop up. Likewise, I have doubts Hillary would have shut down international travel any more quickly or effectively than Trump did.

There probably would have other differences along the margins, but I have doubts about the outcome being significantly different. Well, other than the Democrats would likely already be pushing for numerous permanent expansions of federal powers.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: DonaldD on March 26, 2020, 01:56:15 PM
Quote
Eh, not really. Particularly when you get into the detail that virtually all motor vehicle accidents are preventable.
This simply ignores reality.  So are deaths by lightning.  So are deaths by falls.  So are deaths associated to post-surgical infections for non-emergency surgeries.

Of course, we already avoid, statistically, many car deaths by enforcing air bags, seat belts, re-inforced frames, bumpers, training, traffic signs and lights, painted lines on the road, driving rules...
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Wayward Son on March 26, 2020, 02:17:54 PM
Definitely not these days.

I think the larger question is the long term damage we're willing to absorb to mitigate the estimated/modeled deaths (e.g. 50% unemployment, financial collapse, etc.).

There is also the physical damage to consider.  Some of those who survive the disease will no longer be 100%.  Scarring of lung tissue will occur in some people.

Not to mention time off to take care of sick children, parents, friends and relatives.

Do those who advocate just letting people catch it consider those implications, too?
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: LetterRip on March 26, 2020, 02:30:14 PM
No matter who was in office, every move they made would be criticized. You may think Trump is uniquely making errors that are obvious to everyone but that's your bubble.

If it was [insert your most capable/favorite leader] there would be an equal avalanche of peanut gallery comments, giving point-by-point critique on all the mistakes, just not from you.

Agreed. It's part of why I went on something of a rant about the national stockpile situation the other day. No matter who was president, that was going to be an issue which was going to crop up.

No it wasn't - any half competent administration would have followed the guide - one of the first steps is to check the stockpile and to make sure that there will be enough to meet demand.

Quote
Likewise, I have doubts Hillary would have shut down international travel any more quickly or effectively than Trump did.

Quite likely both more quickly and effectively.  When Fauci recommended it - she would have asked intelligent questions, she would have understood what was happening and why.

The science on this isn't too difficult and anyone reasonably intelligent can get the information to do the right thing.  Clinton is plenty intelligent enough.  Trump simply lacks even basic understanding of anything, he simply can't understand what the experts are saying and recommending even when extremely dumbed down.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: ScottF on March 26, 2020, 03:01:58 PM
No it wasn't - any half competent administration would have followed the guide - one of the first steps is to check the stockpile and to make sure that there will be enough to meet demand.

Quote
Likewise, I have doubts Hillary would have shut down international travel any more quickly or effectively than Trump did.

Quite likely both more quickly and effectively.  When Fauci recommended it - she would have asked intelligent questions, she would have understood what was happening and why.

Riiiight. Her intelligent fact-gathering and reaction speeds in times of crisis are the stuff of legend.

I'm 100% open to Trump having missed opportunities and made sub-optimal decisions. The fact that you think his decisions are a direct result of him not having the basic intelligence to understand what his experts say makes me feel...bad for you.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: yossarian22c on March 26, 2020, 03:11:30 PM
Riiiight. Her intelligent fact-gathering and reaction speeds in times of crisis are the stuff of legend.

I'm 100% open to Trump having missed opportunities and made sub-optimal decisions. The fact that you think his decisions are a direct result of him not having the basic intelligence to understand what his experts say makes me feel...bad for you.

There is little dispute to the fact that Hillary is intelligent. Many people exiting the Trump admin have commented on his lack of interest into delving into the issues. Maybe its lack of interest, attention span, or intelligence but I don't think anyone has ever confused Trump for a policy wonk.

Has Trump taken the time to understand the issues or does he simply spout off ideas, dates, and potential cures half cocked?

Trump has a certain kind of intelligence, but understanding epidemiology and predictive modeling doesn't seem to be in his wheel house. And he also doesn't seem to be the type of person to defer constantly to those who are experts. Its a dangerous combination.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: ScottF on March 26, 2020, 03:27:01 PM
I wasn't making on a comment on her overall intelligence, that would be silly and put me in the same boat as those who say Trump is "dumb".
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: ScottF on March 26, 2020, 03:32:55 PM
My life when pressured to discuss politics:


MARYSVILLE, OH—Local man Dennis Pavone is a middle-of-the-road conservative. He's not crazy about President Donald Trump yet finds himself constantly being forced to defend the man against ever more deranged attacks from both the left and the Never Trump right.

Pavone says he's always getting dragged into arguments where the accusations leveled against Trump are so outlandish that he's forced to take the president's side.

"OK, I'm really not a big Trump fan, so please stop making me defend him, you psychos," he wrote in a recent Twitter thread after a progressive accused Trump of forcing a couple to drink aquarium cleaner. "Seriously, how insane do you people have to be to make me side with Trump every time? I didn't even vote for him!"

Recent social media posts saying Trump will be responsible for millions of coronavirus deaths have only exacerbated Pavone's dilemma, as he's not a Trump guy but can't bring himself to be as unhinged as those who oppose Trump. The media's constant distorted reporting of everything Trump says and does also puts Pavone in "a real pickle," as he has to pick between condoning wild-eyed conspiracy theories about the president and begrudgingly supporting the man pretty often.

"Stop putting me in this position, guys!"

If this keeps up, Pavone says he may just resign himself to becoming a Trump supporter. "He's the worst option except for everyone else."

https://babylonbee.com/news/man-just-wishes-people-would-stop-making-him-defend-trump

Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: DonaldD on March 26, 2020, 04:02:44 PM
Quote
after a progressive accused Trump of forcing a couple to drink aquarium cleaner.
You can find somebody, somewhere on the internet that will say anything.

Of course, Trump didn't "force" anybody to do anything - but he did irresponsibly give misinformation about drugs that led people to pretty predictably act in unhealthy and dangerous ways (nobody is claiming the Nigerians who had chloroquine poisonings ingested aquarium cleaner, BTW).
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: LetterRip on March 26, 2020, 04:06:33 PM
I wasn't making on a comment on her overall intelligence, that would be silly and put me in the same boat as those who say Trump is "dumb".

A close relative is going through vascular dementia - he was 3-4 standard deviations above normal IQ (ie 145-160 IQ) in his 30's ,his IQ is around 70 now (68 years old) when he was tested 4 years ago.  He has extraordinary difficulty with basic reasoning and everyday tasks - and rapidly becomes angry and frustrated with even slight nuance, and frequently misunderstands even basic explanations.  Everything I've seen suggests that Trump is facing similar mental challenges.  It is one of the horrific ravages of aging.  I don't see how anyone can be oblivious to the signs of dementia that Trump is showing.

I think Biden is also showing strong signs of dementia - he doesn't seem as bad to me as Trump, but I've seen a lot less of him.  Sanders seems ok - but again I haven't had much exposure to his speaking, and Warren seems to be showing no signs.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDeamon on March 26, 2020, 04:51:20 PM
Quote
after a progressive accused Trump of forcing a couple to drink aquarium cleaner.
You can find somebody, somewhere on the internet that will say anything.

Of course, Trump didn't "force" anybody to do anything - but he did irresponsibly give misinformation about drugs that led people to pretty predictably act in unhealthy and dangerous ways (nobody is claiming the Nigerians who had chloroquine poisonings ingested aquarium cleaner, BTW).

LOL, you do realize he was quoting the BabylonBee?
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: DonaldD on March 26, 2020, 04:59:12 PM
Am I supposed to know  or care who "BabylonBee" is? Also, "after a progressive accused Trump of forcing a couple to drink aquarium cleaner." is not a quote, you understand...
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDeamon on March 26, 2020, 05:11:18 PM
They've been discussed on this forum in the past few months even.

They're a conservative version of the Onion. They're a satire site.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: wmLambert on March 26, 2020, 07:32:12 PM
...Everything I've seen suggests that Trump is facing similar mental challenges.  It is one of the horrific ravages of aging.  I don't see how anyone can be oblivious to the signs of dementia that Trump is showing.
You've seen something that points to dementia? Funny - Those who know him put him on an energy and cognitive level far above other pols they deal with. There are no signs of dementia with Trump - just insults and disinformation by jealous opponents. They wish they could do what he can.

Quote
...I think Biden is also showing strong signs of dementia - he doesn't seem as bad to me as Trump, but I've seen a lot less of him.  Sanders seems ok - but again I haven't had much exposure to his speaking, and Warren seems to be showing no signs.
You should stay out of the condemnation based on dementia bandwagon. It was Hillary who has come unhinged first, then Pelosi, and others, Mueller was an embarrassment. Bernie has more left in his tank than Biden does - but he is not up to being able to debate Trump. Wait until the first debate with Biden one-on-one against Trump if you want to cringe, and see the difference. Why do those on the Left use projection as their favorite rationalization?
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Seriati on March 27, 2020, 02:26:18 PM
Quote
The Trump situation is unique with regard to the media's unwavering focus to undermine or misrepresent all of his moves, good, bad and neutral. Even though the vast number of those "moves" that have any substance are being prescribed by likely the same experts [most capable leader] would have leveraged.

You mistake the press being skeptical and critical for having a bias.

No, actually you mistake a bias for honest skepticism.  You can see a difference if you pay honest attention.  Skepiticism and critical thought would have the press honestly report Trump's position, give fair weight to to considering the factors upon which Trump's decisions are based and then argue or explain why other factors - in that reporter's opinion - outweigh the factors Trump relied upon.

Bias on the other hand is apparent when the coverage is 95%+ critical, no matter what position Trump takes the articles are written to describe it as evil or wrong, positions are misstated, the rationales and reasoning upon which they are based are ignored or misrepresented - certainly not fairly considered or weighted.

I mean it's like the DNC Senators who released press statements opposing the Kavanaugh nomination with a fill in the blank for the nominee's name.  It's just bias.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on March 27, 2020, 02:32:15 PM
Quote
No, actually you mistake a bias for honest skepticism.

This is a dance routine, not a discussion.  You can't see Trump for what he is, but we've been here many times before about every political issue.  I'm not playing this one any more.  As the great philosopher, Crunch, once said, whatever.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: DonaldD on March 30, 2020, 10:09:39 AM
Quote
How do you go from [10,000] to 20,000 masks [prior to the pandemic] — to 300,000?  Something’s going on. And you ought to look into it as reporters. Where are the masks going? Are they going out the back door? … And we have that happening in numerous places.

I don’t think it’s hoarding,... I think maybe it’s worse than hoarding.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on March 30, 2020, 10:29:00 AM
He's right, it's worse than hoarding.  They are simply throwing them out after one, two or three uses!!!
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on March 30, 2020, 10:38:30 AM
They speak for Trump, so...

Quote
“Fox News tried to do their original playbook, which was dismiss it as a hoax, say that this is another partisan attempt by Democrats to hurt Donald Trump, and this was the case where they could not prevent reality,” Sherman said. “Fox News is a very powerful media organization, but it cannot stop people from dropping dead.”

Sherman added that his conversations with Fox insiders revealed “a real concern inside the network that their early downplaying of the coronavirus actually exposes Fox News to potential legal action by viewers who maybe were misled and actually have died from this.”
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: DonaldD on March 30, 2020, 10:40:59 AM
I'm pretty sure Fox News is safe from action taken by viewers that have died...
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on March 30, 2020, 10:55:36 AM
According to FOX they still vote, so why should that matter?
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: LetterRip on March 30, 2020, 11:28:26 AM
I'm pretty sure Fox News is safe from action taken by viewers that have died...

They aren't from the survivors of said individuals.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: DonaldD on March 30, 2020, 11:33:59 AM
Yes but
a) those were not the words used and
b) saying it that way is less funny (as in, not funny)
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDrake on April 21, 2020, 09:38:35 AM
I’ve had great “ratings” my whole life, there’s nothing unusual about that for me. The White House News Conference ratings are “through the roof”(Monday Night Football, Bachelor Finale , @nytimes) but I don’t care about that. I care about going around the Fake News to the PEOPLE!

Wtf are you talking about ratings?
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Seriati on April 21, 2020, 11:10:01 PM
They speak for Trump, so...

Quote
“Fox News tried to do their original playbook, which was dismiss it as a hoax, say that this is another partisan attempt by Democrats to hurt Donald Trump, and this was the case where they could not prevent reality,” Sherman said. “Fox News is a very powerful media organization, but it cannot stop people from dropping dead.”

Sherman added that his conversations with Fox insiders revealed “a real concern inside the network that their early downplaying of the coronavirus actually exposes Fox News to potential legal action by viewers who maybe were misled and actually have died from this.”

I find it fascinating that false statements made by the left media get imbedded so far into their adherents mentalities that they not only don't realize they are false they repeat them as if they themselves had verified the reality of the statements.

The most common source of the "claim" that Fox tried to "dismiss" the Coronavirus as a hoax is a trimmed video of Sean Hannity.  Even though its absolutely clear that Hannity spent a good chunk of the hour talking about the virus being a serious matter, that the left media was overplaying to cause panic.  This is line, as it's usually trimmed and played played, though sometimes it's just the last sentence by itself. "All right. So that's the point. I mean, scaring the living hell out of people and I see it again. It's like oh, let's let bludgeon Trump with this new hoax."
 
They then pretend that this clip is Hannity calling the virus a hoax, which in fact is not they case.  They ignore completely that the comment in context was calling the Left media's decision to cover the virus from the most panic provoking way possible a hoax.  It's literally imbedded in an hour long program that not only referred to the Coronavirus as a serious matter more than once but also gave out what was pretty much the medical prevention advice at the time.

For context, the quote was from the March 9th program, here's the transcript (which you could have found before you decided to repeat a lie). https://www.foxnews.com/transcript/rep-devin-nunes-we-need-fisa-to-protect-america-but-not-at-the-expense-of-our-liberty (https://www.foxnews.com/transcript/rep-devin-nunes-we-need-fisa-to-protect-america-but-not-at-the-expense-of-our-liberty).  Number of US deaths at the time?  Zero.  Infections?  According to our data now 647, but they wouldn't have known that at the time.

For context the fuller passage from a call with Doug Collins, who was self quarantining after the CPAC exposure.  You may recall, at that point, we still were hoping to be able to control the spread by sick people going into quarantine, largely because Chines  data on spread was still influential.  You'll note that nothing he says about the virus itself was false, or known to be untrue at the time( or maybe you won't, blinders and all):
Quote
HANNITY: But in all seriousness, I think we got to be very real with the American people. I don't like how we are scaring people unnecessarily. And that is that unless you have a comp -- an immune system that's compromised and you are older, and you have other underlying health issues, you are not going to die 99 percent from this virus, correct?

REP. DOUG COLLINS (R-GA) (via telephone): That's correct, Sean. It's good to be with you again.

HANNITY: All right. So that's the point. I mean, scaring the living hell out of people and I see it again. It's like oh, let's let bludgeon Trump with this new hoax.

COLLINS: Yes, and I think what we're looking at here, though, Sean, is something that the American people needed to talk about. It's what (INAUDIBLE) myself and others are following the guidelines that the administration has put out, and we're making sure that people know that just like coming in contact with someone doesn't necessarily mean you get it.

It's also just like coming up with the comments that you always had, you do the proper procedures. You wash your hands. You stay away from people if you're sick.

If you get sick, go to the doctor. The administration has done a wonderful job -- if you need a test, the Trump administration has made sure that doctors can give tests to those who need them.

I have not had a test. I'm passed the incubation period. But we're wanting (ph) to make sure that when people follow the rules, when they follow what is out there, there's no need for panic. There's no need for what we're seeing and there just needs to be a calm assertiveness that you do what is right and things will -- and this virus can be contained in a way it has. It's going to still continue to grow, but we are not going to see it in ways of fear.

And I think that's one of the reasons why I'm wanting, you know, to talk to you tonight and also say, look, I may be healthy. I'm going to be and I will be out of this in a few days.

This is after, by the way, Hannity expressly referred to the Coronavirus a serious issue multiple times.  I grant he was more optimistic than later events would prove out, but at the time he was conveying what we actually knew.  Generally low rates of significant problems in those under 60.  Effectively, at the time the flu (without a flue shot) was believed to be more dangerous to the under 50 crowd.

Heck the show opened up with this statement about the "hoax," which makes it much clearer.  Maybe ask yourself if the left media is really so stupid as to be confused about what was said.   You'll note they neer use this clip from the exact same show.

Quote
If you are over the mass hysteria, if you're over politicizing and weaponizing the coronavirus, you are not alone. That's why tonight, we are focused on two major stories. First, we're going to call out anyone and everyone who's using this virus as a political weapon against the president.

It's sick, it's sad, but predictable. I'm sure in the end, the mob and the media -- well, they will be advancing their new conspiracy theory and their newest hoax. Probably, they will come up with, hypothetically, I'm just guessing, wouldn't shock me, President Trump, Putin, mad scientists of Russia and Ukraine are manufacturing the coronavirus on purpose so they can hurt innocent children and kill grandma and grandpa, before they throw them over a cliff, before they feed them dog food.

Look, it is time, in all seriousness, for simple, fundamental truths to protect our fellow Americans. That means Democrats. That means Republicans, liberals, conservatives and libertarians and everybody in between. Viruses do not have a political identity.

So, tonight, we will separate cold hard truth from what is the mob's latest, manufactured, irresponsible, over-the-top rhetoric. Our medical A- team and Dr. Oz tonight will explain.

Again, you keep repeating lies, and somehow believe the other side is the one lying to you.  How many times does this have to be demonstrated before it makes an impact?
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: rightleft22 on April 22, 2020, 09:29:41 AM
Quote
Again, you keep repeating lies, and somehow believe the other side is the one lying to you.  How many times does this have to be demonstrated before it makes an impact?

It seems we are all being gas-lit. The point may be correct however the 'other side', with the same sense of correctness, authentically believe your the one repeating lies.
We have come to the point where the point is moot. The other does not believe the other is speaking in good faith. Such is the danger when leaders character no longer matter and media outlets become propaganda outlets. Their are no winners here. 
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDrake on April 22, 2020, 09:30:31 AM
The hoax is that the media was or is scaring people unnecessarily. It is very necessary to scare the living crap out of people with the absolute worst case scenario, because people don't take it seriously if you say, "It might be terrible or it might not be that bad." A large number of people will gravitate to the best case scenario. Why else do they get suckered into pyramid schemes and online gambling? This isn't something we can gamble on. The incubation lag is enough to get on an exponential increase that can barely be contained by the time you start identifying cases.

It's not like conservative media doesn't also present their worst case scenarios - like background checks leading to a police state.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: rightleft22 on April 22, 2020, 10:44:21 AM
Quote
the media was or is scaring people unnecessarily.

since new media has moved from a public trust to a business to make profit the hyperbole to catch the public eye is explained away
The solution would be to return to news reporting as a public trust any profit to be returned to the public  (not going to happen)
Or educate the viewer in discernment to see past the hyperbole and or not reward news outlets that betray public trust. Hold the outlets accountable financially for getting it wrong.

 
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Seriati on April 22, 2020, 10:49:55 AM
Quote
Again, you keep repeating lies, and somehow believe the other side is the one lying to you.  How many times does this have to be demonstrated before it makes an impact?

It seems we are all being gas-lit. The point may be correct however the 'other side', with the same sense of correctness, authentically believe your the one repeating lies.

I don't care what they believe, I care what they demonstrate.  It's observable fact that the left media spins every single issue to be "Trump did wrong."  It's racist to have a travel ban, it should be reported to the international criminal court that Trump didn't act sooner.

Or how about this lie reported by the media?  Trump knew about this in November (before the Chinese) based on secret intelligence agency report and the Whitehouse briefing.  Our "secret" source saw the report.  Report does not of course exist, nor is there any record of this briefing - even though there are records of all such briefings.

Quote
We have come to the point where the point is moot. The other does not believe the other is speaking in good faith. Such is the danger when leaders character no longer matter and media outlets become propaganda outlets. Their are no winners here.

I disagree.  Your response to me demonstrating that the left is spreading a deliberate and knowing lie for political convenience is to claim we all do it?

Them demonstrate it, and not just because you "believe" something someone on Fox said is wrong or that something someone on the left said has been misreported.  Show me that it's unfair to claim Schiff is a liar for repeatedly claiming their was evidence - not in the public record but that he'd seen - that Trump colluded with the Russians.  The evidence is out, that was a lie.  Show us where the left media treated Kavanaugh and Biden in the same manner.

Claiming we all do it is a lie.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Seriati on April 22, 2020, 11:01:29 AM
The hoax is that the media was or is scaring people unnecessarily. It is very necessary to scare the living crap out of people with the absolute worst case scenario, because people don't take it seriously if you say, "It might be terrible or it might not be that bad." A large number of people will gravitate to the best case scenario. Why else do they get suckered into pyramid schemes and online gambling? This isn't something we can gamble on. The incubation lag is enough to get on an exponential increase that can barely be contained by the time you start identifying cases.

TheDrake that is a completely reasonable argument.  You made it.  The left media could have made the argument that Hannity was wrong.

Instead, they make the argument that Hannity called the virus a hoax, which they know is a lie.  And if people not only don't have a problem with that but spread it they are spreading lies.

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It's not like conservative media doesn't also present their worst case scenarios - like background checks leading to a police state.

Again, it's a fair argument.  It's also a projection.  The equivalent to the media lie campaign would be if Fox pulled a clip of Rachel Maddow agreeing with that as follows.  Taking a clip that originally said, "There is no way that background checks lead to a police state." and playing only the bold part.

The difference is that Fox does not have any where near the MSM echo impact.  If Fox reveals a lie, dozens, even hundreds of Left media sources pretend the lie is still true, but if Fox did that to Maddow there'd be a thousand stories at the top of the search results showing it the next day.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDrake on April 22, 2020, 11:03:13 AM
BTW, out of context reporting of quotes is a staple of the right wing media, or have you not heard of Project Veritas and Obama's "you didn't build that"?
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Seriati on April 22, 2020, 11:07:59 AM
Or how about this one.  The New York Times, literally attributing a death to Fox News and including a quote in its story from the March 9 Fox show for a decision made on March 1st, and ignoring their own and all potential impacts from the left.

https://nypost.com/2020/04/20/no-ny-times-fox-news-didnt-kill-joe-joyce/ (https://nypost.com/2020/04/20/no-ny-times-fox-news-didnt-kill-joe-joyce/)

Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Seriati on April 22, 2020, 11:23:20 AM
BTW, out of context reporting of quotes is a staple of the right wing media, or have you not heard of Project Veritas and Obama's "you didn't build that"?

In what way was "you didn't build that" unfairly used out of context?  Here's the speech passage:

Quote
There are a lot of wealthy, successful Americans who agree with me — because they want to give something back. They know they didn’t — look, if you’ve been successful, you didn’t get there on your own. You didn’t get there on your own. I’m always struck by people who think, well, it must be because I was just so smart. There are a lot of smart people out there. It must be because I worked harder than everybody else. Let me tell you something — there are a whole bunch of hardworking people out there.

If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you’ve got a business — you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen. The Internet didn’t get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet.

The point is, is that when we succeed, we succeed because of our individual initiative, but also because we do things together. There are some things, just like fighting fires, we don’t do on our own. I mean, imagine if everybody had their own fire service. That would be a hard way to organize fighting fires.

So we say to ourselves, ever since the founding of this country, you know what, there are some things we do better together. That’s how we funded the GI Bill. That’s how we created the middle class. That’s how we built the Golden Gate Bridge or the Hoover Dam. That’s how we invented the Internet. That’s how we sent a man to the moon. We rise or fall together as one nation and as one people, and that’s the reason I’m running for President — because I still believe in that idea. You’re not on your own, we’re in this together.

He was agruing that we need higher taxes and he literally was telling those that build businesses that they owe that success to the group, not to their own hard work.  He conflates any hard work (as if working 70 hours a week digging a ditch - which I have done) is exactly the same thing as doing the same and throwing all you money into your own start up business - it's not.  He's literally putting the nicest polish on a nasty idea that its "right" to take from the haves to give to everyone else.

In no way is that clip misrepresenting the whole.  Yet there are literally multiple fact checks - at the very top of the search results followed by massive amounts of left spin pieces.  I followed through to the fact checks and they tried their best to imply it was misused (for context I looked at politifact on Trump's "fine people" quote which has been deliberately used to misrepresent his speech.  There they have no clear statement that it's misused, don't mention the left spin (in contrast most the Obama article is criticsm of specific campaign commercials that used the quote - but not describing why it was unfair), instead they have page after page of the transcript, without any commentary.

In other words, they focused on spin in favor of Obama and bury the lede on Trump without making a clear statement it was false.

You are free to take your own look and tell me if you find a different result.

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BTW, out of context reporting of quotes is a staple of the right wing media, or have you not heard of Project Veritas and Obama's "you didn't build that"?

So prove it about mainstream right media.  There's literally only a couple of such sources, cause we all know you're not looking to hold the Progressive extreme news sources to the same standard by implying they are part of the left media.

Project Veritas intrigues me.  They seem no less fair than a 60 minutes undercover report expose, yet they seem to cause some kind of trigger warning issue.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: DonaldD on April 22, 2020, 11:40:37 AM
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not to their own hard work
That isn't at all what Obama said.  You just quoted the complete passage, yet you still misrepresent what he stated.  This is a perfect example of what TheDrake was alluding to.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Seriati on April 22, 2020, 01:15:43 PM
Wow, I think the "adjustment" to make what I said 100% accurate instead of 95% accurate would be as follows:

"he literally was telling those that build businesses that they owe that success to the group, not just to their own hard work"

Though that actually gives him too much credit and is about the same amount "false" in his favor as what I originally said, since he literally said that "I’m always struck by people who think, well, it must be because I was just so smart. There are a lot of smart people out there. It must be because I worked harder than everybody else. Let me tell you something — there are a whole bunch of hardworking people out there."  And that certainly implies that my original comment is more correct, since he down plays hard work by ignoring the distinctions between what kinds of hard work can generate big success and what kinds can't, he ignores completely the personal risk involved because he want to attribute it to the group or some form of luck or chance (which is a dog whistle on the left).  Of course I did address that as well.

But I've now walked through this twice and all you've done is asserted your own opinion that I misrepresented him.  Show your work.  Show exactly what was a misrepresentation, using context to prove your claims.

The two examples I discussed were a both directly contradicted by the context.  Show that work.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDrake on April 22, 2020, 01:37:23 PM
Whether somebody took more risk than someone else doesn't bear on "who built that". If it were, then workers risking their health and their lives would be able to lay more claim to "who build that' than the guy who funded the project.

There is a lot of luck and chance in success, though it isn't the total reason in most cases. You were fortunate in the first place to be born where you are, when you are, and who your peers are. Its refuting this idea that just anybody in any circumstance can just be successful through pure will.

Was Zuckerberg that much more brilliant and hard working than everyone else? Or did he just happen to have access to a private academy, Harvard, and a supportive family? Obama wasn't trying to take away those kinds of achievements, just to put them in perspective that its not just personal choices and ability that are factors.

They absolutely owe their success to something other than their hard work, though the hard work is a necessary component that should be admired.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: yossarian22c on April 22, 2020, 01:56:44 PM
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If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you’ve got a business — you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen. The Internet didn’t get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet.

Its ambiguous grammar but watching live it was clear to me the "that" referred to the American system and infrastructure. Not their own business. But free country, if you chose to interpret the that as the person's business there is enough ambiguity in the phrasing and structure of the sentence you can make an argument. But by following up with the government helped create the internet infrastructure and then companies made money off it makes more sense if "that" means infrastructure and american system instead of business.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: fizz on April 22, 2020, 02:32:17 PM
Small personal example to reinforce what Obama said, things that by the way I share 100%.
I'm a moderately successful businessman in IT. While very very very far from being a billionaire, I founded an healthy company that feed about 50 employees and whose services are used by slightly more than a million users.
I did this without having a wealthy family or investors of any kind, all bootstrapped from scratch, and I for sure worked a lot for this: there were periods when I was pulling 80 hours working weeks for months at a time, even if now I'm a bit too old to pull that kinds of time, it's a rare week that i do only 40 hours, and until very recently I never knew the meaning of the word vacation.

But I still was able to do this only thanks to having a fully working society around me.

As a kid, I learned stuff by going to a state-paid public school.

At university, I was able to study without contracting any debt even if we were not rich because our universities are state-funded.
And I met my business partner at university. I met there also other people that funded IT and non-IT companies that were among our first customers, first suppliers, and partners in this or that venture. My university was not a very prestigious one, it was a small local one because I could not afford to move to a bigger city, so most of those people were small-time like me: of course, if I had been to a prestigious university, the kind of friends I would have made would have been different, and the business opportunities different too... that's after all the true premium of those ivy league unis, right?

I had all my life completely free healthcare: when I started my company, my family was on the brink of financial ruin due to some mistakes of my father... me and my family would not have been able to afford an health insurance, so I would have had the choice to either renounce starting the company, or risk it without... and if I had done that, when in those years I had to undergo emergency surgery, I would have either died, because I would have waited too much to go to the hospital for fear of the cost, or I would have been financially ruined.
Likely my mother too would have died in those years as she too needed some surgery.
In the period when we opened a branch of my company abroad, for a couple of years I lived in a country that uses an hybrid healthcare system: you're only covered if your employer or family pay for healthcare, even if the price is state-mandated. I still remember the anxiety I suddenly felt when I realized this, when I injured a foot before I had time to organize the company properly and give myself a formal paycheck and the related insurance.. for the first time I realized how privileged I had always been for my healthcare system.

Even in my work, everything I've built depends anyway on the work of many many people out there: in our software the use of open source software and platforms and products is massive: if we had to develop everything from scratch, we would not have gone anywhere.
Even if we had used only commercial tools, all algorithms, all the theory behind what we do, comes out of academic studies and research.
Like Newton said, "If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants.", all our science and technology and art and culture is based on derivative and cumulative work across the ages.

And anyway, all my 50 employees are trained and instructed and cared for by that same society, and I need them because there is no way I could do everything that's needed to run my company alone. Some of them are quite smarter than me, in many different ways, and have different strengths and competences that I need to make everything works.

I've been lucky to develop over the course of my early life a set of skills, interests and desires that led me down this road, and I've been lucky that events turned on right a sufficient amount of time. Sure, I had some talents and will, but if some things turned the wrong way, like they did for my father, I would have failed. There is still time for that, by the way... you never know what's going to happen. If thats going to happen, I'll be glad to know that I've a societal network that should guarantee to me that at least I will not have to worry for my health, or for those of my relatives.

So, even if when the time to pay taxes arrive the thing it's always a bit painful, still I'm glad to do it, because I live in a society, I'm not Robinson Crusoe on a desert island.

(I could also mention some of those infrastructure things like road to drive to work and to customers, a national power grid, water and sanitation, the postal system, the phone lines, internet, a judiciary system, health and quality standards that make sure food and consumer products are healthy and safe, and all those thousands of little details that make a working nation, but one would hope there would be no need for that...)

Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: DonaldD on April 22, 2020, 02:34:36 PM
You might be the smartest, hardest working and smartest working man in the world, Jeff Bezos, but without seed money, the roads network, banking systems, and the internet, Amazon doesn't exist
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Seriati on April 22, 2020, 04:00:18 PM
I see, so yoss it was clear to you real time that the reference was to not having built the infrastructure itself, though it seems  the other 3 that responded took it to mean that the person involved owed their success at business to something other than themselves.  Hardly seems like a clear case of misrepresentation then of what Obama said.

And fizz thanks for sharing that.  You made the cogent argument about the substance that underlies what Obama was arguing - though that's only one interpretation of the facts.  But the disscusion is about whether what he said was misrepresented. 

The problem here is that it's not an all or nothing proposition.  Obama's argument props up all or nothing thinking, that no one is SOLELY responsible for thier success therefore, they owe EVERYTHING back to society.  That's false as the proposition that someone's success is 100% their own and that they owe nothing to anyone else.  Obama's words imply (and have been used by the left) to pretend that any societal contribution to success is more important than the individual contribution.  So tell us Fizz, was it just your luck that had you running the company, did you take that chance from every empoyee you ever had and any one of themwould have been just a s capable and willing to do what you did, but for the fact that you received better sociatal support than every one of them?   Are you arguing that you weren't important to that success?  Did society benefit at all from your efforts that resulted in employeing 50 people and presumably providing services to hundreds more?  Was it not in societies self interest to make those investments in infrastructure that directly was repoid by you and hundresds of others that provide that society with jobs, services and products?

This debate does not answer whether taxes should be 95% of income - I assume fiz you think that would be too much - or whether you should be required to add 50 employees to your payrole without useful skills because they are entitled to a job; or whether they should be 5% and even basic infrastructure should be comercialzed.  Obligations are only what are agreed, despte Obama' implication that we all owe everything we have to the group.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: DonaldD on April 22, 2020, 04:11:47 PM
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Obama's argument props up all or nothing thinking, that no one is SOLELY responsible for thier success therefore, they owe EVERYTHING back to society
You really can't help yourself, can you? :D

You cannot admit that businesses thrive today because, well, society exists, because you think that means somebody, somewhere, will make the argument that those businesses should therefore be owned collectively, i.e., they owe EVERYTHING back to society.  This is the same type of reasoning that doesn't allow people to accept that human activities have led to the increases in atmospheric CO2 that are currently warming the planet, because that means that somebody, somewhere, will argue that all industry must be therefore shut down.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDrake on April 22, 2020, 04:13:44 PM
I don't know how you can possibly get "everything" out of his statements.

He said you didn't get there on your own, not that you got there by accident or that you owe the entirety of your success to the efforts of other people. If you boiled that down, it would come out something like "you owe a significant amount to others for your success."
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: rightleft22 on April 22, 2020, 04:29:07 PM
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Again, you keep repeating lies, and somehow believe the other side is the one lying to you.  How many times does this have to be demonstrated before it makes an impact?

It seems we are all being gas-lit. The point may be correct however the 'other side', with the same sense of correctness, authentically believe your the one repeating lies.

I don't care what they believe, I care what they demonstrate.  It's observable fact that the left media spins every single issue to be "Trump did wrong."  It's racist to have a travel ban, it should be reported to the international criminal court that Trump didn't act sooner.

Or how about this lie reported by the media?  Trump knew about this in November (before the Chinese) based on secret intelligence agency report and the Whitehouse briefing.  Our "secret" source saw the report.  Report does not of course exist, nor is there any record of this briefing - even though there are records of all such briefings.

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We have come to the point where the point is moot. The other does not believe the other is speaking in good faith. Such is the danger when leaders character no longer matter and media outlets become propaganda outlets. Their are no winners here.

I disagree.  Your response to me demonstrating that the left is spreading a deliberate and knowing lie for political convenience is to claim we all do it?

Them demonstrate it, and not just because you "believe" something someone on Fox said is wrong or that something someone on the left said has been misreported.  Show me that it's unfair to claim Schiff is a liar for repeatedly claiming their was evidence - not in the public record but that he'd seen - that Trump colluded with the Russians.  The evidence is out, that was a lie.  Show us where the left media treated Kavanaugh and Biden in the same manner.

Claiming we all do it is a lie.

"I don't care what they believe, I care what they demonstrate."  Likewise they don't care what you believe only what you can demonstrate and 'they' don't agree with what your demonstrating just as you don't agree with what they are demonstrating. Only you know with certainty that your right. You have demonstrated no more willingness to give the benefit of the doubt then those you argue with.

All the arguments you countered my statesmen with can an are made by those you disagree with - replacing the word left with the word right

"Show me that it's unfair to claim Schiff is a liar for repeatedly claiming their was evidence" Without being able to read his mind I don't know, however the evidence I saw points to their having been evidence - if that should have been impeachable - I don't know.

Show me its unfair to Claim the Trump is a liar repeatedly making claims that are not true and without evidence. And don't give me the because there is a sliver of truth in a statement that makes the statement if not true, true not a lie.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: fizz on April 22, 2020, 06:45:04 PM
...
 Obama's argument props up all or nothing thinking, that no one is SOLELY responsible for thier success therefore, they owe EVERYTHING back to society. 
...

You read that, I don't.

Quote
So tell us Fizz, was it just your luck that had you running the company, did you take that chance from every empoyee you ever had and any one of themwould have been just a s capable and willing to do what you did, but for the fact that you received better sociatal support than every one of them?   Are you arguing that you weren't important to that success?  Did society benefit at all from your efforts that resulted in employeing 50 people and presumably providing services to hundreds more?  Was it not in societies self interest to make those investments in infrastructure that directly was repoid by you and hundresds of others that provide that society with jobs, services and products?

In order:
1. of course it was not *just* the day-to-day luck that hallowed me to accomplish that, although it helped, but it was all luck that had me be a white (well, let's say native in the dominant ethnicity) heterosexual male, with an interest and skill in a field (I.T.) right at the moment when it was booming. My brother for example is a very skilled swordsman, but apart for giving him satisfactions in sports, this skill is quite hard to monetize, and is not helping him at all at finding a decent job that he likes.
But in other ages his skill could have been the more important one.
2. no, I'm arguing that, like Obama said in the very same quote you used, "we succeed because of our individual initiative, but also because we do things together", and "If (I was) successful, somebody along the line gave (me) some help", and believe me, plenty of people, even people I've never met and don't ever know I exists, had to help me getting were I got.
3. I like to think so
4. well, of course. This is exactly the argument behind an expansion of social services. You help people not only because it's the moral thing to do (and it is), but also because all in all it's in the best interest of society keeping an happy, healthy, educated and satisfied population. It's win-win. But if I then, after getting my benefits, did not pay taxes and "give back", society could not afford to do those things that were needed to bring me here in the first place and contribute these benefits to the society.

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This debate does not answer whether taxes should be 95% of income - I assume fiz you think that would be too much - or whether you should be required to add 50 employees to your payrole without useful skills because they are entitled to a job; or whether they should be 5% and even basic infrastructure should be comercialzed.

First of all, I didn't see in your quote anything talking about a flat 95% rate, or taking a 100% extra 'social hires'. If such a thing was proposed in the terms you wrote, it would be of course stupid, but before I believed somebody proposed such a thing, you should show me the proposal, it's not enough for you to infer this based on your intuition on the implications. It would be quite more the already quite higher taxes and social obligations we have in my country, that would make the average US businessman run away screaming (for example, with 50 employees we *do* have a mandatory social hire, one, and we simply  found jobs that the disabled woman could do <shrug>. And we do have an union inside, even if only a couple employee felt the need to go with them, as we are quite fair in our dealings, and a lot of small other things).

(I will not go in the argument about progressive taxation rates, how they work, the history of taxation rates in the US and abroad and the effect of lack of they had on economy over time because that's a vast off-topic).


Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: wmLambert on April 22, 2020, 08:12:04 PM
..."we succeed because of our individual initiative, but also because we do things together", and "If (I was) successful, somebody along the line gave (me) some help"

Obama was using a focus-group tested cliché to impugn successful professionals. He took the edge off the cliché by saying we are all part of the society that has created the shoulders to stand upon, but his subsequent speeches, as well as the complicit media take on his words make entrepreneurs and successful people a target. Why else even mention it?

As for "everybody does it," that was the Clinton-era defense against his bimbo eruption. Instead of offering remorse, he tried to drag the Founders, and all other Presidents into the mud with him to share his depravity.

I agree with Seriati that the Left passes on lies without vetting them, but I may blame them less than he does. They hold their disinformational beliefs honestly. They believe the lies, not because they are evil, but because that is how they were taught, and how the disinformation was reinforced. It takes courage and healthy logic to examine what one thinks is true data. For most of us, such actions occur piecemeal. One thing commonly believed becomes surprisingly provably incorrect, which causes us to look at other similar things. The more didinfprmation we uncover, the less we are inclined to wear blinders.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on April 22, 2020, 08:46:56 PM
I see stupid people...
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: yossarian22c on April 22, 2020, 11:38:08 PM
I see, so yoss it was clear to you real time that the reference was to not having built the infrastructure itself, though it seems  the other 3 that responded took it to mean that the person involved owed their success at business to something other than themselves.  Hardly seems like a clear case of misrepresentation then of what Obama said.

Fair enough, the right has been hammering that he meant business when he referred to "that." I think honest people can disagree what the that is supposed to refer to. Personally in context I find "that" is more likely to refer to the infrastructure and American system.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_8C6tG-eWw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_8C6tG-eWw)

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If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges, if you’ve got a business, you didn’t build that, somebody else made that happen. The Internet didn’t get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet.

Changing the punctuation changes the meaning there.

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On July 17, 2012, the Obama campaign stated that the statement was taken out of context, and that the phrase referred to "roads and bridges" from the previous sentence.[4][31] As the statement gained traction, the campaign ran new ads in multiple states (Virginia, North Carolina, Florida, Ohio, Iowa, and Nevada) where the President directly countered Romney's claims.[32][33] In the ad Obama says while looking directly at the camera:
Those ads taking my words about small business out of context? They're flat out wrong ... Of course Americans build their own businesses.

— President Barack Obama[32]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_didn%27t_build_that#Obama_campaign (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_didn%27t_build_that#Obama_campaign)

That's what Obama claims he meant as well. You can not believe him, politicians spin all the time. I know my personal bias is to give Obama the benefit of the doubt but I know I probably wouldn't do the same for Trump.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Wayward Son on April 23, 2020, 11:04:34 AM
"China has been working very hard to contain the Coronavirus. The United States greatly appreciates their efforts and transparency. It will all work out well. In particular, on behalf of the American People, I want to thank President Xi!"
Tweet from Donald Trump, January 24, 2020.

"Just had a long and very good conversation by phone with President Xi of China. He is strong, sharp and powerfully focused on leading the counterattack on the Coronavirus. He feels they are doing very well, even building hospitals in a matter of only days."
Tweet from Donald Trump, February 7, 2020.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Seriati on April 23, 2020, 02:51:18 PM
Fair enough, the right has been hammering that he meant business when he referred to "that." I think honest people can disagree what the that is supposed to refer to. Personally in context I find "that" is more likely to refer to the infrastructure and American system.

Yoss, I do want to thank you, I think you made a good faith effort to directly address the question.  I'm guessing, you would agree it's not as clear cut as it may have seemed at first.  I certainly agree that your interpretation is a reasonable one, just not that it's the only reasonable one. 

But I think this just emphasizes my point.  There's no good faith interpretation of the Fox story or the Trump example I gave.  The left media versions are directly contradicted by the context.

Do you find it telling, at all, that no one has tried to demonstrate with evidence that the left media "version" of those events is in fact a reasonable or really even a plausible interpretation?
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on April 24, 2020, 07:30:47 AM
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But I think this just emphasizes my point.  There's no good faith interpretation of the Fox story or the Trump example I gave.  The left media versions are directly contradicted by the context.

Counter evidence always "just emphasizes" your point because you pick apart other's words to find the tasty morsels. But the fact that a misreading of Obama's words happens only among people who are politically (or viscerally) opposed to him doesn't increase the likelihood that he meant what you want it to mean instead of what he meant.  That you stoop to assign irrefutable meaning to the antecedent of the indefinite pronoun** "that" to prove your case only weakens it.  Or do you think I didn't mean that is true?  [Wait, what do you mean by "that"?]

** Your English usage lesson for the day: "An indefinite pronoun does not refer to any specific person, thing or amount. It is vague and "not definite"."  Its meaning is determined by the speaker/writer, not the listener/reader.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: DonaldD on April 24, 2020, 08:11:09 AM
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And then I see the disinfectant where it knocks it out in a minute. One minute.  And is there a way we can do something like that, by injection inside or almost a cleaning?
The man is a moron.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Crunch on April 24, 2020, 08:24:51 AM
Quote
And then I see the disinfectant where it knocks it out in a minute. One minute.  And is there a way we can do something like that, by injection inside or almost a cleaning?
The man is a moron.

Please google “healight”.


Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: DonaldD on April 24, 2020, 08:48:26 AM
a) He is a moron because he didn't learn from his last foray into promoting unproven treatments - sure, that was irresponsible.  Doubling down now is just stupid.
b) Look up the words "injection" and "inside" and try to figure out what that has to do with low level light therapy. 

Are you really suggesting that Trump was proposing, in that quote, injecting LEDs into people's bodies?  Because it is clear when he was talking about disinfectants, he was no longer talking about light therapy. At least, it was clear to any number of people and companies, such as Lysol's parent company, who put out a statement that their product was not meant to be injected.  Also, the study to which he referred did mention the use of bleach and isopropyl alcohol as disinfectants, and his wording, though mangled as usual, was at least pretty clear in distinguishing between the use of light and the use of "disinfectant" - especially considering the "one minute" bit, which was clearly referring to the disinfectant products, not light. 

BTW, any comment on the recent studies that show the use of hydroxychloroquine leading to higher mortality in COVID-19 patients in clinical settings?

Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Crunch on April 24, 2020, 08:57:21 AM
Dude, stop spreading fake news. Even internet fact checkers are blowing this lie out of the water.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Crunch on April 24, 2020, 08:58:05 AM
Quote
BTW, any comment on the recent studies that show the use of hydroxychloroquine leading to higher mortality in COVID-19 patients in clinical settings?


Please link the study.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: rightleft22 on April 24, 2020, 09:10:43 AM
Curious. Has anyone here, or know any one, that has sat through a full covid19 briefing by the President 
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Crunch on April 24, 2020, 09:24:12 AM
I sat through the first few completely. But daily 2 hour briefings were not something I could sustain so I catch them a couple of times a week now and not for the full briefing.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: DonaldD on April 24, 2020, 09:31:51 AM
So, what part is "fake news"?  The part about Lysol's parent company?
Quote
[Lysol Brand owner] Reckitt Benckiser, which also owns the brands Vanish and Cillit Bang, said its products should not be administered "through injection ingestion or any other route".
"Our disinfectant and hygiene products should only be used as intended and in line with usage guidelines. Please read the label and safety information," the company said in a statement.
 

If not that, let's look at Trump's actual words:
Quote
So, supposing we hit the body with a tremendous, whether it’s ultraviolet or just very powerful light, and I think you said that hasn’t been checked, but you’re going to test it… And then I said, supposing you brought the light inside of the body, which you can do either through the skin or in some other way. And I think you said you’re going to test that too.  Sounds interesting.

Right. And then I see the disinfectant.  It knocks it out in a minute - one minute. Something like that by injection inside or almost a cleaning.
It's pretty clear that Trump uses the phrase "And then I see the disinfectant" to introduce a separate topic from the light therapy... especially since the paper to which he alludes actually has a section discussing the use of different types of disinfecting agents separate from the section on light effects.

Saying "fake news" doesn't make your point - it just signals that you have turned off your brain already.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: DonaldD on April 24, 2020, 09:36:42 AM
Outcomes of hydroxychloroquine usage in United States veterans hospitalized with Covid-19 (https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.16.20065920v2)
Quote
CONCLUSIONS: In this study, we found no evidence that use of hydroxychloroquine, either with or without azithromycin, reduced the risk of mechanical ventilation in patients hospitalized with Covid-19. An association of increased overall mortality was identified in patients treated with hydroxychloroquine alone.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Crunch on April 24, 2020, 09:47:09 AM

Saying "fake news" doesn't make your point - it just signals that you have turned off your brain already.

It's fake news. Everyone knows it.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: DonaldD on April 24, 2020, 09:54:35 AM
So, you have no substantive response, not even a clarification of what you meant was "a lie" that was blown out of the water.

C'mon Crunch, have the courage of your convictions.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Crunch on April 24, 2020, 10:02:10 AM
Outcomes of hydroxychloroquine usage in United States veterans hospitalized with Covid-19 (https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.16.20065920v2)
Quote
CONCLUSIONS: In this study, we found no evidence that use of hydroxychloroquine, either with or without azithromycin, reduced the risk of mechanical ventilation in patients hospitalized with Covid-19. An association of increased overall mortality was identified in patients treated with hydroxychloroquine alone.

Right, let's take a look at that rather than the part you quote and want everyone to believe is the totality of the "study".

First off, let's set the baseline. Hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin are safe to use. They've been approved by the FDA - hydroxychloroquine in 1955 and azithromycin in 1988. As I've said many times, the use of hydroxychloroquine, zinc, and azithromycin may not turn out to be effective but, when used properly, is a safe treatment that's worth trying.

Now, what's missing from the mix in this "study"? Zinc. They do not say anything about using zinc so I assume it was not used. The treatment being touted is the combination of hydroxychloroquine, azithromycin, and zinc. If they did not use zinc, as it appears they did not, then this "study" is already full of *censored*.

They "study" was comprised of men ages 59-75 with a median over 65. Most, if not all, had comorbidities like congestive heart failure, chronic pulmonary disease, diabetes, liver disease, cancer, and HIV/AIDS. So, bottom line, the "study" selected what are absolutely the most high-risk patients and you and MSNBC are basing your accusations on that.  The "study" even calls out that the results they found would not reflect outcomes in women, younger people, or pediatric use.  Again, total crap.

So it's a "study" that preselected for the worst possible outcomes and then did not treat the patients with the medications believed to be necessary to address the symptoms of COVID-19. In other words, it does nothing but provides people like you a talking point to keep the fear going. It's a disgraceful form of fake news.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Crunch on April 24, 2020, 10:03:25 AM
So, you have no substantive response, not even a clarification of what you meant was "a lie" that was blown out of the water.

C'mon Crunch, have the courage of your convictions.

You can check it all over the web, many sources for it so I don't need to repeat it here just for you to ignore it. It's about like you telling everyone Trump said to drink fishtank cleaner, that level of fake news.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: DonaldD on April 24, 2020, 10:09:58 AM
I just transcribed the video of Trump's words.  You can listen to and read them here: BBC: Disinfectant firm issues warning (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52411706)

So, which part is "fake news"?  His words are there to listen to, Lysol's response is there as well. Instead of avoiding the issue and pointing to the inter webs, just address the evidence that is there for everyone, even you, to see.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Crunch on April 24, 2020, 10:36:22 AM
I just transcribed the video of Trump's words.  You can listen to and read them here: BBC: Disinfectant firm issues warning (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52411706)

So, which part is "fake news"?  His words are there to listen to, Lysol's response is there as well. Instead of avoiding the issue and pointing to the inter webs, just address the evidence that is there for everyone, even you, to see.

You just transcribed a section of the video, the section you wanted to clip out of context. That's a huge difference as everyone knows and it' one of those things you really should stop doing.

Let's get the full context.

Quote
Bill Bryan, Under Secretary for Science and Technology at DHS, said at the press briefing, “Our most striking observation to date is the powerful effect that solar light appears to have on killing the virus, both surfaces and in the air. We’ve seen a similar effect with both temperature and humidity as well, where increasing the temperature and humidity or both is generally less favorable to the virus.”

Bryan talked about the half-life of the coronavirus on surfaces like door handles and stainless steel surfaces, saying that when they “inject” UV rays into the mix along with high temperatures and increased humidity that the virus dies quickly.

“The virus does not survive as well in droplets of saliva, and that’s important because a lot of testing being done is not necessarily being done, number one, with the COVID-19 virus and number two, in saliva or respiratory fluids,” Bryan continued. “And thirdly, the virus dies the quickest in the presence of direct sunlight under these conditions.”

Bryan continued by noting that DHS also tested if certain types of disinfectant could kill the coronavirus.

“We’ve tested bleach, we’ve tested isopropyl alcohol on the virus, specifically in saliva or in respiratory fluids, and I can tell you that bleach will kill the virus in five minutes,” Bryan said. “Isopropyl alcohol will kill the virus in 30 seconds, and that’s with no manipulation, no rubbing. Just bring it on and leaving it go. You rub it and it goes away even faster.”

Bryan added, “We’re also looking at other disinfectants, specifically looking at the COVID-19 virus in saliva.”

Trump:

Quote
So, I’m going to ask Bill a question that probably some of you are thinking of if you’re totally into that world, which I find to be very interesting. So, supposing when we hit the body with a tremendous, whether it’s ultraviolet or just very powerful light, and I think you said that hasn’t been checked, but you’re going to test it. And then I said supposing you brought the light inside the body, which you can do either through the skin or in some other way. And I think you said you’re going to test that too. Sounds interesting. And then I see the disinfectant, where it knocks it out in a minute, one minute. And is there a way we can do something like that by injection inside or almost a cleaning? Because you see it gets in the lungs and it does a tremendous number on the lungs, so it’d be interesting to check that, so that you’re going to have to use medical doctors with, but it sounds interesting to me. So, we’ll see, but the whole concept of the light, the way it kills it in one minute. That’s pretty powerful.

So clearly Trump is asking the experts, is there something similar we can do to disinfecting a surface but do it on human beings (healight being an example of that).

But, if you like, please point me to the video where Trump looks into the camera and tells everyone to go get a syringe, fill it with household cleaners, and inject it into themselves. If you can't point to that section of the video, then this is just another lie.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on April 24, 2020, 10:44:32 AM
Quote
It's fake news. Everyone knows it.

Whenever Crunch (or WmLambert or Seriati) say this sort of thing, they're referring to a sliver of people who choose not to participate in any reasonable dialog.  In his world, that's everyone he listens to.  It's not a stretch for me to say that there is no light reaching inside his head, no matter how wide he opens his mouth to spew nonsense.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Crunch on April 24, 2020, 10:47:17 AM
Let's run it the other way:
Quote
Cristina Cuomo, who is not a medical doctor or licensed health professional of any kind, doubled down on her absurd assertion that taking a bleach bath could in any way help during the coronavirus.

On Thursday, Cuomo, who has taken a number of scientifically unproven but likely innocuous "treatments" for the coronavirus, wrote, "Both days, I added 1/2 cup of Clorox to my bathwater to combat the radiation and metals in my system and oxygenate it."

By the evening, she had stealth edited the section and somehow made it even more scientifically illiterate.

"We want to neutralize heavy metals because they slow-up the electromagnetic frequency of our cells, which is our energy field, and we need a good flow of energy," Cuomo wrote. "Clorox is sodium chloride--which is technically salt. There is no danger in doing this. It is a simple naturopathic treatment that has been used for over 75 years to oxygenate the cells."

(Fact check: Clorox absolutely is not just "technically salt," and medical professionals have advised not to use bleach on skin during the coronavirus as it corrupts the body's natural physical defenses and unnecessarily dries out the skin.)

So, CNN is telling people to bathe in bleach! You know, gotta slow-up the electromagnetic frequency of our cells and a good bleach bath is the way to do it.  CNN is the source, must be true.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Crunch on April 24, 2020, 10:48:34 AM
Quote
It's fake news. Everyone knows it.

Whenever Crunch (or WmLambert or Seriati) say this sort of thing, they're referring to a sliver of people who choose not to participate in any reasonable dialog.  In his world, that's everyone he listens to.  It's not a stretch for me to say that there is no light reaching inside his head, no matter how wide he opens his mouth to spew nonsense.

When ad hominems and are literally the only thing you offer, and that's the literal truth as I've never seen you do anything else, who's being reasonable and who's not?
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: yossarian22c on April 24, 2020, 11:14:31 AM
...
Quote
So, I’m going to ask Bill a question that probably some of you are thinking of if you’re totally into that world, which I find to be very interesting. So, supposing when we hit the body with a tremendous, whether it’s ultraviolet or just very powerful light, and I think you said that hasn’t been checked, but you’re going to test it. And then I said supposing you brought the light inside the body, which you can do either through the skin or in some other way. And I think you said you’re going to test that too. Sounds interesting. And then I see the disinfectant, where it knocks it out in a minute, one minute. And is there a way we can do something like that by injection inside or almost a cleaning? Because you see it gets in the lungs and it does a tremendous number on the lungs, so it’d be interesting to check that, so that you’re going to have to use medical doctors with, but it sounds interesting to me. So, we’ll see, but the whole concept of the light, the way it kills it in one minute. That’s pretty powerful.

So clearly Trump is asking the experts, is there something similar we can do to disinfecting a surface but do it on human beings (healight being an example of that).
...

Trump is asking a question a 6 year old would ask. The time for Trump to ask his speculative, idiotic, could this be a cure questions is in private. Asking leading questions, with statements like " it’d be interesting to check that" is irresponsible. Because checking the effect of disinfectants on the lungs is probably going to be fatal.

Also UV light is pretty worthless once the virus is inside your cells. UV works to decay the exposed virus it isn't going to do much to the virus that has taken up residence inside your cells.

UV can be used in ventilation systems and to decontaminate gear but isn't going to be useful for whatever plausible thing you are going to claim Trump meant.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on April 24, 2020, 11:30:47 AM
Quote
It's fake news. Everyone knows it.

Whenever Crunch (or WmLambert or Seriati) say this sort of thing, they're referring to a sliver of people who choose not to participate in any reasonable dialog.  In his world, that's everyone he listens to.  It's not a stretch for me to say that there is no light reaching inside his head, no matter how wide he opens his mouth to spew nonsense.

When ad hominems and are literally the only thing you offer, and that's the literal truth as I've never seen you do anything else, who's being reasonable and who's not?

Don't be upset, I'm not attacking you.  I'm just saying that next to WmLambert you have the worst case of TWS I've ever encountered.  Everyone knows it.  It's like a brain infection, so it's a disease or a condition, not you.  It's possible it could be cured by injections of light or disinfectant, and you would become normal.  I'm not saying those would work or wouldn't, but what could go wrong with trying?  Or just stick with one of the chloroquine remedies.  The FDA today issued a warning (https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2020/04/24/coronavirus-latest-news/?pwapi_token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJjb29raWVuYW1lIjoid3BfY3J0aWQiLCJpc3MiOiJDYXJ0YSIsImNvb2tpZXZhbHVlIjoiNWE3ZDllNjJhZGU0ZTI1N2NiYTgzYTQyIiwidGFnIjoid3BfbmV3c19hbGVydF9yZXZlcmUiLCJ1cmwiOiJodHRwczovL3d3dy53YXNoaW5ndG9ucG9zdC5jb20vd29ybGQvMjAyMC8wNC8yNC9jb3JvbmF2aXJ1cy1sYXRlc3QtbmV3cy8_d3Btaz0xJndwaXNyYz1hbF9uZXdzX19hbGVydC1oc2UtLWFsZXJ0LW5hdGlvbmFsJnV0bV9zb3VyY2U9YWxlcnQmdXRtX21lZGl1bT1lbWFpbCZ1dG1fY2FtcGFpZ249d3BfbmV3c19hbGVydF9yZXZlcmUifQ.c8PXyexq0TnSGgxFAen_GpXZSpfHnKEPEIli5RmMEN4&utm_campaign=wp_news_alert_revere&utm_medium=email&utm_source=alert&wpisrc=al_news__alert-hse--alert-national&wpmk=1) that it can cause death or other serious side effects, but again, what have you got to lose?
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDeamon on April 24, 2020, 12:31:16 PM
I see, so yoss it was clear to you real time that the reference was to not having built the infrastructure itself, though it seems  the other 3 that responded took it to mean that the person involved owed their success at business to something other than themselves.  Hardly seems like a clear case of misrepresentation then of what Obama said.

Fair enough, the right has been hammering that he meant business when he referred to "that." I think honest people can disagree what the that is supposed to refer to. Personally in context I find "that" is more likely to refer to the infrastructure and American system.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_8C6tG-eWw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_8C6tG-eWw)

Quote
If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges, if you’ve got a business, you didn’t build that, somebody else made that happen. The Internet didn’t get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet.

Changing the punctuation changes the meaning there.

Quote
On July 17, 2012, the Obama campaign stated that the statement was taken out of context, and that the phrase referred to "roads and bridges" from the previous sentence.[4][31] As the statement gained traction, the campaign ran new ads in multiple states (Virginia, North Carolina, Florida, Ohio, Iowa, and Nevada) where the President directly countered Romney's claims.[32][33] In the ad Obama says while looking directly at the camera:
Those ads taking my words about small business out of context? They're flat out wrong ... Of course Americans build their own businesses.

— President Barack Obama[32]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_didn%27t_build_that#Obama_campaign (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_didn%27t_build_that#Obama_campaign)

That's what Obama claims he meant as well. You can not believe him, politicians spin all the time. I know my personal bias is to give Obama the benefit of the doubt but I know I probably wouldn't do the same for Trump.

There were posts going over the "you didn't build that" comment by Obama back when it happened on here.

IIRC, I was game concede he was talking about infrastructure rather than the business itself. But even in regards to infrastructure, for a lot of major business ventures, they actually did build much of the immediate surrounding infrastructure needed to support their construction. Or in the latest version of businesses being wooed by various communities, they were offered considerable "incentive packages" where the taxpayer did in fact pay for it, but normally wouldn't have.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: ScottF on April 24, 2020, 12:35:18 PM
I liked this breakdown of Trump's latest comments:

"Trump did what he always does: he played a single-person game of telephone, in which somebody gave him information, he processed it, and it came out of his mouth in a completely different (and bizarre) way. That doesn't mean he was recommending actually injecting Clorox, people.

This is half the crazy stuff that exits his face: somebody said something mostly-reasonable, he interpreted in a bumper sticker fashion removed from the substance, and then the media ran with it as though he was making a serious policy suggestion.

And then they wonder why the stuff Trump says in pressers rarely becomes policy. Because it was never going to be policy! Every press conference is this, plus some media person trying to hold him to a literalist version of his bizarre off-the-cuff garbled reinterpretation."

You may despise Trump with the heat of a thousand suns, and think he should never do anyh of this, but it's a pretty accurate representation of the Trump-dishonest media loop.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: DonaldD on April 24, 2020, 12:35:46 PM
Your problem here, as seems to be your general rule, is you misinterpret something in the most ridiculous way possible, and then try to shoehorn your interpretation into somebody else's mouth verbatim.  It's inherently dishonest - basically, steroid-enhanced-grass-fed cyborg straw men arguments.

Quote
But, if you like, please point me to the video where Trump looks into the camera and tells everyone to go get a syringe, fill it with household cleaners, and inject it into themselves.
Who said he stated that?  What he did do was suggest, him being a really smart guy and all, that it would be good to investigate how injecting disinfectants like bleach and alcohol ("I can tell you that bleach will kill the virus in five minutes,” Bryan said. “Isopropyl alcohol will kill the virus in 30 seconds") into the human body might be used to combat the virus ("and is there a way we can do something like that by injection inside or almost a cleaning?")

The original point being, as you just inadvertently confirmed, is that Trump was pondering, publicly, that injecting disinfectants might be a good treatment for COVID-19
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: rightleft22 on April 24, 2020, 12:36:16 PM
Rightleft
Quote
Curious. Has anyone here, or know any one, that has sat through a full covid19 briefing by the President

Chrunch
Quote
I sat through the first few completely. But daily 2 hour briefings were not something I could sustain so I catch them a couple of times a week now and not for the full briefing.

For the last year I've actively avoid watching an Trump speak. For me his way of talking and communicating his thoughts is so horrific that I worry about TDS. By avoiding watching him talk I actually find it easier to focus on the policies the administration is engaged in.  I suspect that many people animosity toward Trump is triggered by the way he talks and rambles.

That said I don't know any other world leader giving 2+ hour briefings everyday most of which appears off the cuff ramblings. As I'm not watching that is just the impression so that could be unfair. I do wonder how many people actually do watch the whole thing other then reporters.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDeamon on April 24, 2020, 12:36:46 PM
The "study" was comprised of men ages 59-75 with a median over 65. Most, if not all, had comorbidities like congestive heart failure, chronic pulmonary disease, diabetes, liver disease, cancer, and HIV/AIDS. So, bottom line, the "study" selected what are absolutely the most high-risk patients and you and MSNBC are basing your accusations on that.  The "study" even calls out that the results they found would not reflect outcomes in women, younger people, or pediatric use.  Again, total crap.

Ah you're forgetting something else about that demographic, this is the Veteran's Administration we're talking about, and that age range corresponds to Vietnam War era veterans. So add in Agent Orange exposures, and a list of other "special risk factors" into the mix as well.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: wmLambert on April 24, 2020, 12:39:25 PM
...you have the worst case of TWS I've ever encountered.  Everyone knows it.  It's like a brain infection, so it's a disease or a condition, not you.

That Chinese test that you have referred to so many times was not a negative test, but an incomplete one. It was said to be unsuccessful only because there were too few subjects for valid metrics. The media here grabbed the summary report of the test and ran with it as a valid statement of drug potentiality, when nothing of the sort was ever intended.

As for the TWS insults, it is just a vapid attempt to nullify the provable Trump Derangement Syndrome that so many on the Left have that filters out facts and provable metrics. Stop with the "brain infection" already. The term you need to understand is "Psychological mechanism." These mechanisms are baked-in so to speak, but revolves around education and reinforcement. When that info is disinformational, any mammal will retain it if it is presented when the subject is in a plastic state and then reinforced.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: rightleft22 on April 24, 2020, 12:44:40 PM
Quote
The original point being, as you just inadvertently confirmed, is that Trump was pondering, publicly, that injecting disinfectants might be a good treatment for COVID-19

I watched the clip where he was 'spit balling' 'brainstorming' this idea.

He didn't specifically tell people to inject themselves with bleach so that point is moot however the real issue, IMO, is that this type of pondering is dangerous coming from a Presidential platform.  We can get cough up in the argument of what he really said or didn't say, but I see that as a distraction from the real issues which I suspect is the intent

Much of Trumps political power comes from not being able to pin him down on what he actually means when he says something. He is a master.  It's so distracting that we can't see the baby in the bathwater, we forget about the baby all together.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: ScottF on April 24, 2020, 12:48:55 PM
Quote
The original point being, as you just inadvertently confirmed, is that Trump was pondering, publicly, that injecting disinfectants might be a good treatment for COVID-19

I watched the clip where he was 'spit balling' 'brainstorming' this idea.

He didn't specifically tell people to inject themselves with bleach so that point is moot however the real issue, IMO, is that this type of pondering is dangerous coming from a Presidential platform.  We can get cough up in the argument of what he really said or didn't say, but I see that as a distraction from the real issues which I suspect is the intent

Much of Trumps political power comes from not being able to pin him down on what he actually means when he says something. He is a master.  It's so distracting that we can't see the baby in the bathwater, we forget about the baby all together.

And the media latches on to the madness like a terrier on a fatty bone. Instead of them asking probing questions about NY antibody test status, we get...this.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: wmLambert on April 24, 2020, 12:59:54 PM
Quote
The original point being, as you just inadvertently confirmed, is that Trump was pondering, publicly, that injecting disinfectants might be a good treatment for COVID-19

I watched the clip where he was 'spit balling' 'brainstorming' this idea.

He didn't specifically tell people to inject themselves with bleach so that point is moot however the real issue, IMO, is that this type of pondering is dangerous coming from a Presidential platform.  We can get cough up in the argument of what he really said or didn't say, but I see that as a distraction from the real issues which I suspect is the intent

Much of Trumps political power comes from not being able to pin him down on what he actually means when he says something. He is a master.  It's so distracting that we can't see the baby in the bathwater, we forget about the baby all together.

And the media latches on to the madness like a terrier on a fatty bone. Instead of them asking probing questions about NY antibody test status, we get...this.

Moreover; the Trump brainstorming is exactly that. Only the least gracious would deny answering in the way they should. Is there a way to use UV light and disinfectants safely? No, injections like drug fixes are stupid, but how about the Healight that Crunch mentioned? UV light does penetrate the skin, which is the largest organ of the body, and enters the metabolism that way. We introduce light into the body every time we use scopes during operations. Humidity was the other factor mentioned, and that is easily supplied to the lungs, just by breathing humid air. There is literally nothing mentally unfit at the questions Trump posed. Only an "ends justify the means" sort of person refuses to look at the questions and explore answers.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: rightleft22 on April 24, 2020, 02:06:31 PM
Quote
And the media latches on to the madness like a terrier on a fatty bone. Instead of them asking probing questions about NY antibody test status, we get...this.

Most definitely they focus on the wrong questions and IMO works to trumps advantage.

There is a valid debate to be had if pondering idea's on remedies should be made by a president in a official briefing. I'd rather he keep to prepared statements of fact. The question I would ask the president is if he thinks such pondering is helpful. After that the people get to decide.

And I would like to hear more about the antibody test status but not from a President.

I personally don't care if people believe if injecting themselves with bleach will help or not. I'm prepared to award Darwin awards.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: DonaldD on April 24, 2020, 02:34:59 PM
If in a business, somebody came into a meeting so unprepared, and started to ask the presenter something equivalent to whether injection of alcohol or chlorine might be helpful... that person wouldn't be long for the company.  While positing that mooting something a child could tell you is a bad idea is some kind of 3-dimensional chess move might be entertaining, the idea that Trump is using his stupidity as strategy really has no basis in reality.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDrake on April 24, 2020, 02:40:07 PM
A leader doesn't speculate about things in front of their customers. The ceo of Coca cola wouldn't do that, and that's just soda pop. They don't brainstorm in front of millions of people.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Aris Katsaris on April 24, 2020, 02:46:08 PM
Seriously why is the bloody president brainstorming at doctors, and publicly so during a press conference? (Same question as to why he'd been tweeting about specific potential medicines, still under testing)

This is like the Independence Day president going himself in a fighter jet to shoot down aliens -- except worse because at least that guy was supposed to have been once a fighter pilot. It's similarly *someone's* job to brainstorm specific medical solutions, but it's not Trump's.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: DonaldD on April 24, 2020, 03:00:58 PM
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Seriously why is the bloody president brainstorming at doctors, and publicly
This.

What if you were that doctor, and the president, who fires people for doing their jobs by disagreeing with him all the time, is put on the spot in front of millions of people?  How is this doctor supposed to respond to a possibly valid question, never mind the dumb-f#9k3ry that Trump was spewing? He's an administrator, the CEO of this hugely successful (sic) corporation, and he didn't get there by questioning the bookkeepers what columns they were updating, or telling the electricians which wire should be attached, or the plumber which o-ring to use.  Actually, he probably did get into the bookkeepers face, but that is another story...
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: rightleft22 on April 24, 2020, 03:25:38 PM
If in a business, somebody came into a meeting so unprepared, and started to ask the presenter something equivalent to whether injection of alcohol or chlorine might be helpful... that person wouldn't be long for the company.  While positing that mooting something a child could tell you is a bad idea is some kind of 3-dimensional chess move might be entertaining, the idea that Trump is using his stupidity as strategy really has no basis in reality.

The question as to if the President specifically suggest people start injecting them self with bleach (whatever) is moot - He didn't specifically say that. 
Arguing about what his comments suggested is moot its all subjective. Bad if you don't like him, don't care if you do like him. The argument on what he says but doesn't say isn't going to change anyone's mind about him.

Debating as if a president should be live pondering during a briefing is valid. I personally don't think so for many reasons. That is a argument that could change what people think.

I agree if the boss were to continue to come to meetings unprepared that company would fail, unless he had really really good people around him to counter. either way not a boss I would want to work for. That's opinion, some people might enjoy following such a leader as long as they keep getting paid. 

Quote
Trump is using his stupidity as strategy really has no basis in reality.
This I very much have to disagree with you.
It is a failure of the left is to think Trump is stupid (primary I think because of the way he communicates) And thinking him stupid most definitely works for him.
Time and Time again the press and the left get distracted on trivialities of his speech allowing Trump to continuously own the narrative.
Maybe he is a political unconscious savant however if you look at his career and read his book this form of communication, distraction and plain tiring out his opponents with his misdirection (almost all speech related), has been intentionally cultivated.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: DonaldD on April 24, 2020, 03:39:41 PM
Quote
The question as to if the President specifically suggest people start injecting them self with bleach (whatever) is moot - He didn't specifically say that. 
No, he didn't.  Why do you keep talking about it as if he had?

What he did do was ask whether injecting bleach or alcohol might be a good idea.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on April 24, 2020, 03:52:33 PM
Quote
As for the TWS insults, it is just a vapid attempt to nullify the provable Trump Derangement Syndrome that so many on the Left have that filters out facts and provable metrics.

You realize what you just did? :).  You used what you claim is provable TDS to deny that anyone can honestly claim that there is such a thing as TWS?  TWS is treatable.  Difficult, but treatable. 

Do. You. Understand. The. Words. That. Came. Out. Of. Your. Mouth????????????????
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on April 24, 2020, 03:59:54 PM
Quote
The original point being, as you just inadvertently confirmed, is that Trump was pondering, publicly, that injecting disinfectants might be a good treatment for COVID-19

I watched the clip where he was 'spit balling' 'brainstorming' this idea.

He didn't specifically tell people to inject themselves with bleach so that point is moot however the real issue, IMO, is that this type of pondering is dangerous coming from a Presidential platform.  We can get cough up in the argument of what he really said or didn't say, but I see that as a distraction from the real issues which I suspect is the intent

Much of Trumps political power comes from not being able to pin him down on what he actually means when he says something. He is a master.  It's so distracting that we can't see the baby in the bathwater, we forget about the baby all together.

And the media latches on to the madness like a terrier on a fatty bone. Instead of them asking probing questions about NY antibody test status, we get...this.

You miss the point that Trump's "briefings" are all and only about his ideas, his point of view, his admirers and his base.  Do you really think he has given any thought at all to what NY is actually doing or needs?  I won't bother to go back and dig up quotes where he attacks Cuomo for lying, overstating and otherwise misrepresenting the problems NY is having getting supplies and support from the federal government.  If you care (the "if" is important) you would already know those things or would go find them to satisfy yourself. 
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: rightleft22 on April 24, 2020, 04:12:04 PM
Quote
The question as to if the President specifically suggest people start injecting them self with bleach (whatever) is moot - He didn't specifically say that
No, he didn't.  Why do you keep talking about it as if he had?

What he did do was ask whether injecting bleach or alcohol might be a good idea.

I think you misread what I wrote and prove my point (or I just suck at communicating myself).
Trump didn't tell people to inject themselves, Trump did ponder if injecting bleach or alcohol could work.  I would very much care if he said the first but don't care to spend time taking about the second unless its a debate on if such pondering should be pondered on a presidential briefing Live. The distraction is the stupid debate and to what did intend to say about bleach and were missing the point by not talking about the real stuff like the antibody test status.

Science is boring better tv reality show drama.

If we don't all start to figure this out and stop spending so much time on arguments that are distracting from the real issues then I don't know how we get through this.

Trump is not going to change how he talk. If you hate it you hate it, if your ok with it your ok with it. Nothing is going to change anyone's mind so lets try laying off of the absurd agreements that have more to do about proving how right we are about interpreting what Trump "really" meant. Their is no need to speculate, infer, read between the lines, or spin it. 


Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: rightleft22 on April 24, 2020, 04:25:06 PM
Quote
You miss the point that Trump's "briefings" are all and only about his ideas, his point of view, his admirers and his base.  Do you really think he has given any thought at all to what NY is actually doing or needs?  I won't bother to go back and dig up quotes where he attacks Cuomo for lying, overstating and otherwise misrepresenting the problems NY is having getting supplies and support from the federal government.  If you care (the "if" is important) you would already know those things or would go find them to satisfy yourself.


I haven't missed the point with Trumps briefings - is why I don't watch them.

We can't read Trumps mind so any debate on the matter of what he cares about or intends always falls into to realm of speculation and bias (almost always blurred by his horrific communication style) My point was that these arguments or pointless and tend to miss the real issues that lay under them. They don't change anyone mind and only work to Trumps favor.

I personally agree with you that if Trump cares he only cares about himself, his base and winning. I think he is a horrible leader that has surrounding himself with yes men.  (I might have changed my mind if Trump had found a safe way to end the lock down 15 Apr - but he didn't even present a plan - at least not when he first talk about that time line) 
That's opinion, and I doubt very much any facts or arguments I put forth is going to change anyone mind.  So I won't

If someone wants to talk about actually policies and stuff I might be interested, I'm not interested in the diversions that never go anywhere.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on April 24, 2020, 04:35:49 PM
Unfortunately, in this case there isn't much difference between the messenger and the message.  Further, there's not enough daylight between the message he delivers in his daily fundraisers and what he directs his government to do.  Remember, he had to be argued into accepting that the coronavirus wasn't going away in February, argued into extending the lockdown beyond the end of March, argued out of telling protesters to liberate their states against the directives of their Governors, and apparently constantly has to be argued out of spitballing quack remedies that will actually cause far more harm than good.  IMO, that's why we can't just sit back and discuss the dry statistics (which I'll point out I often do, as well....)
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: rightleft22 on April 24, 2020, 04:47:06 PM
Unfortunately, in this case there isn't much difference between the messenger and the message.  Further, there's not enough daylight between the message he delivers in his daily fundraisers and what he directs his government to do.  Remember, he has to be argued into accepting that the coronavirus wasn't going away in February, argued into extending the lockdown beyond the end of March, argued out of telling protesters to liberate their states against the directives of their Governors, and apparently constantly has to be argued out of spitballing quack remedies that will actually cause far more harm than good.  IMO, that's why we can't just sit back and discuss the dry statistics (which I'll point out often do, as well....

I agree we can't just sit back however playing the game where he makes the rules isn't working. If were going to talk about what Trump says we have to quote it exactly and not infer intention or meaning. When ever someone deviates and starts to imply intent etc they lose.

Trump says exactly what he says and it should be address as such. It is possible that someone listening to Trump injects themselves with bleach but that does not mean that is what he said and going back an forth on it is pointless. 

Personally I don't understand why anyone finds it acceptable that his briefings devolve into 'spit balling' ramblings. I have no idea how that qualifies as good Leadership and would reject it out right from any leader regardless of party. But that me

I wonder what would happen if the majority of media outlets stopped covering them... or didn't focus on the stupidest thing he said that day.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Seriati on April 24, 2020, 04:55:04 PM
Quote
But I think this just emphasizes my point.  There's no good faith interpretation of the Fox story or the Trump example I gave.  The left media versions are directly contradicted by the context.

Counter evidence always "just emphasizes" your point because you pick apart other's words to find the tasty morsels. But the fact that a misreading of Obama's words happens only among people who are politically (or viscerally) opposed to him doesn't increase the likelihood that he meant what you want it to mean instead of what he meant.

What counter evidence?  3 out of 4 that responded appealed to the substantive truth of the idea that the business founder didn't build that business and their own opinion as to that's true.  Seems like if 75% of the defenders of the passage seem to think it says - even if they say it doesn't - it's hardly a misunderstanding of the right.

Even for yoss, who actually addressed the question, the primary evidence was his personal reaction based on hearing the speech and not anything clear in the text.  That's totally legitimate evidence, yet, again when it comes to Trump there's a 100% discount of what those who hear what he says real time understand it to mean.

I mean this latest controversy is beyond stupid.  His words were dumb and his speculation was dumb, but the media interpretation of them?  Beyond a lie.  No one that listened to him and his repeated qualifications took away a message that you should inject bleach into your body, yet that's exact the story the media ran.  We all know that they are 100% hoping beyond hope that someone -say a CNN watcher - goes out and injects bleach into their body so they can run yet another story about how Trump killed someone.

Fact is, if any reporter in that room thought that's what Trump said, they have too poor of a comprehension of English to be a reporter.

I get the focus on the literal - it's a way to feed your delusions - but the intent was clear.  He was speculating about directly attacking the virus. Killing  it mechanically.  That's not the typical way we treat most diseases.  Normally, we try to stimulate the body to fight them off - vaccines trigger our immune systems to fight a disease they don't attack the disease directly.

But this isn't as stupid an idea as you think it is.  What exact do you think radiation treatment does to cancer cells?  It physically destroys them.  It's an extreme procedure with large consequences.  But we use multiple other methods of direct treatments as well, chemotherapy, dialysis, some topical medications, even surgery are all methods of doing so.  Heck we use sunlight or even UV rays to treat some conditions. 

So yes the idea of injecting bleach is functional stupidity, but the idea that using agents that kill the virus rather that provoking your body to do so is not.

Outcomes of hydroxychloroquine usage in United States veterans hospitalized with Covid-19 (https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.16.20065920v2)
Quote
CONCLUSIONS: In this study, we found no evidence that use of hydroxychloroquine, either with or without azithromycin, reduced the risk of mechanical ventilation in patients hospitalized with Covid-19. An association of increased overall mortality was identified in patients treated with hydroxychloroquine alone.

This one fascinates me as well.  I'm not expert on this, but the readings I have done indicate that the possible positive impact of hydroxychloroquine would be most effective the earlier the treatment occurs and that starting treatment after substantial physical damage had been done to the lungs is pretty much never going to have a material impact.  Lung damage occurs after massive replication by the virus, and hydroxychloroquine's impact would be on slowing replication.

So if your inflection is on an exponential curve, hydroxychloroquine can pull you out of the exponential part allowing your body to fight off the infection.  However, if you've already been infected to the point that your body is overwhelmed it can't magically heal your lungs and return your strength to help your body fight off the overwhelming amount of virus in your system.  Effectively, your body's resources are being used to stay alive.

That's why zinc is referred to as well, it has a known property on inhibiting viral growth and there may be an interaction between the two where one facilitates the other's entry into cells where the virus would otherwise operate.

if that is the case, then the creation in the US of trials exclusively of the very ill, those dying and those on ventilators will never show this benefit.  Whereas, trials that involved people exposed to the virus and showing only light symptoms would.  However, it's not remotely clear at this point how common the virus really is.  With some of those estimates implying a substantial chunk of the populace has already been infected with the no symptoms version.  If that in turn is true, then hydroxychloroquine, even if it is effective, would probably only be called for in people who have been repeatedly exposed, exposed to severe cases, or are at risk for being first responders.

I am very troubled by the very real possibility that the FDA's institutional unwillingness and inability to adapt, and all the roadblocks they have put on forwarding possible treatments would in a case like this result in missing or severely delaying getting results on something that could be effective.  I thought for example the "whistle blower" that just testified on this was emblematic of this problem, he sounded very martyred as he explained how he prevented trials from being conducted on anyone but the dying.  If that's the case, he may literally end up being responsible for tens of thousands of unnecessary deaths.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Seriati on April 24, 2020, 04:57:54 PM
Unfortunately, in this case there isn't much difference between the messenger and the message.  Further, there's not enough daylight between the message he delivers in his daily fundraisers and what he directs his government to do.  Remember, he had to be argued into accepting that the coronavirus wasn't going away in February, argued into extending the lockdown beyond the end of March, argued out of telling protesters to liberate their states against the directives of their Governors, and apparently constantly has to be argued out of spitballing quack remedies that will actually cause far more harm than good.  IMO, that's why we can't just sit back and discuss the dry statistics (which I'll point out I often do, as well....)

How would I "remember" your delusions.  Or can you demonstrate any such reality - other than in left media where they set up a strawman about what Trump is going to do, then claim he was talked out of the stupid idea that only ever existed in the left media, when Trump does not in fact do what they said he was going to.

You can't talk about statistics, or even about reality, because it's not what the media is feeding you and you won't reengage the critical thinking.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: rightleft22 on April 24, 2020, 05:06:54 PM
Quote
I get the focus on the literal - it's a way to feed your delusions - but the intent was clear.  He was speculating about directly attacking the virus. Killing

Is obviously wasn't clear as many view the intent differently.

In both yours and their cases you had to imply intent precisely because it wasn't clear.
Wouldn't is be nice I Trump actually clarified his pondering with "directly attacking the virus directly" but he doesn't talk that way so we are left with the window to infer intent.

Now if you want to talk about if such rambling and pondering belong in a Briefing by a president and is good leadership. Please make your argument
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Seriati on April 24, 2020, 05:29:33 PM
You mean rightleft22 like how Trump repeatedly directed his questions about bring the light into the body to the doctors?  Or how he said things like wouldn't it be nice?  Or how it was absolutely 100% clear he was speculating and asking the doctors whether they could find a way to use these techniques that work on surfaces to attack the virus in the body?

Or did you only read the one little snippet?  Honestly, it can be painful to listen to everything Trump says.  But no one rationale listens to him and believes that every word is somehow literal.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: rightleft22 on April 24, 2020, 05:37:30 PM
You mean rightleft22 like how Trump repeatedly directed his questions about bring the light into the body to the doctors?  Or how he said things like wouldn't it be nice?  Or how it was absolutely 100% clear he was speculating and asking the doctors whether they could find a way to use these techniques that work on surfaces to attack the virus in the body?

Or did you only read the one little snippet?  Honestly, it can be painful to listen to everything Trump says.  But no one rationale listens to him and believes that every word is somehow literal.

I agree it can be painful to listen to everything trump says. The problem is that rational people wanting to understand Trump are stuck because some things he says are literal and some are not (most are not traditionally presidential) and telling the difference is difficult and to often a distraction to real issues. His method of comunication always leave a window open to misinterpretation. (My view is that that is intentional as well as a attribute of a poor leader and communicator)

You still have not addressed the real issue here: Should a President be pondering/rambling/spit balling during a briefing to the people? Is that good leadership? Is it helpful
And 2 + hours everyday. Everyday! WTF
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: rightleft22 on April 24, 2020, 05:48:48 PM
I'll be off line for the weekend.
Everyone have a good one
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: DonaldD on April 24, 2020, 05:58:38 PM
oops!  Sorry, I guess I was wrong - Trump wasn't serious with his question about injecting disinfectant as a means of curing/treating COVID-19. From The Washington Post (https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/04/24/disinfectant-injection-coronavirus-trump/):
Quote
The question, which Trump offered unprompted, immediately spurred doctors, lawmakers and the makers of Lysol to respond with incredulity and warnings against injecting or otherwise ingesting disinfectants, which are highly toxic.
When asked Friday during a bill signing in the Oval Office to expand upon this, Trump said it was not intended as a serious suggestion.
“I was asking a question sarcastically to reporters like you just to see what would happen,” Trump said.
So...  he said the question was just as a trap for reporters, which is a much, much a better thing to do while putatively providing information and leadership to the country concerning an epidemic killing tens of thousands of people in the country than thinking that injecting rubbing alcohol into people might cure them of a disease...
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: wmLambert on April 24, 2020, 06:15:12 PM
Quote
The original point being, as you just inadvertently confirmed, is that Trump was pondering, publicly, that injecting disinfectants might be a good treatment for COVID-19

I watched the clip where he was 'spit balling' 'brainstorming' this idea.

He didn't specifically tell people to inject themselves with bleach so that point is moot however the real issue, IMO, is that this type of pondering is dangerous coming from a Presidential platform.  We can get cough up in the argument of what he really said or didn't say, but I see that as a distraction from the real issues which I suspect is the intent

Much of Trumps political power comes from not being able to pin him down on what he actually means when he says something. He is a master.  It's so distracting that we can't see the baby in the bathwater, we forget about the baby all together.

I wish I had you in a classroom studying group problem solving. You have an erroneous understanding of how such things are done.

To facilitate creative group problem solving, the best leaders set aside a "no negatives" period when everyone throws out ideas, wild or not, and let them gestate. After all these ideas are out in the mix, the group can go back and tear them apart, trying to vet what may be workable and advisable, and what is not. In this manner, the ideas become a product of the group, and not "owned by the original contributor, who clings to an idea out of personal investment, rather than the content of the ideas, themselves." After the ideas are whittled down, another round of positive-only refinements are applied, then the vetting, again. This process is the smartest and most endorsed process for solving such problems. Trump does this routinely, but the media, and those who then endorse their pejorative inputs are the true stupid people.

Creative group problem solving is much harder than just "brainstorming." Doing it correctly creates solutions to problems much faster and effectively than any other method. A person can lead this kind of discussion without alluding to some formal sort of "Robert's Rules of Order." Trump is good at getting the best out of others, and then using their contributions as a group product, and not claiming personal ownership, himself, of the group product.

Trump is good at getting groups to work together and find solutions to things that others just pay lip service to, and never come up with anything positive. He is also good at selecting good group members who can contribute in the arena under discussion. I think this is one reason he is so disdainful of Fake News reporters who are only negative and never positive. Instead of covering the news, they are purposefully blocking the process of solving problems. I don't know if Trump is aware of the formal training of this process, but he certainly uses it and has used it over his whole career. His autobiographies, wherein he describes his methods and problem solving defines how he operates, and how he judges the efficacy of the ideas that he foments.

Quote
When ad hominems [[sic] and] are literally the only thing you offer, and that's the literal truth as I've never seen you do anything else, who's being reasonable and who's not?

Problem solving a la Trump is not "ad Hominem." That is more strawman mis-interpretation of how he operates. One assigns ideas to an opposing viewpoint only if one wants to discredit the proposer, not the idea, itself. If an idea is valid, who offers it is not an issue.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: DonaldD on April 24, 2020, 06:47:28 PM
You're absolutely adorable!
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: cherrypoptart on April 24, 2020, 06:54:45 PM
I had thought something along the lines of Trump, some kind of way to get cleansing agents into the body to kill the virus. I don't know if it would work or not but we have the ancient example of workers at copper smelters being mostly immune from passing plagues. Was it because they were touching the copper all the time and that was like constantly washing their hands? Or was it because copper atoms were in the air being breathed in and got in their food as well?

Now as with most things beneficial there is certainly harm that could come from copper in this way too. But I wonder what would happen if you took some dire case coronavirus sufferers to a copper smelter. Would it help them any? Would the workers get infected or would the copper kill the virus before it could get to them? If it did work would there be a way to aerosolize atoms of copper? Are there safe levels for it?

Maybe it would do nothing at all. Maybe they'd get copper poisoning. I have no idea but I can appreciate the lines along which Trump was thinking. It's good to think out of the box sometimes like wmLambert is saying. Most of the time it's rubbish but sometimes even the rubbish can lead to a spark of inspiration that results in progress.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Wayward Son on April 24, 2020, 07:24:22 PM
I liked this breakdown of Trump's latest comments:

"Trump did what he always does: he played a single-person game of telephone, in which somebody gave him information, he processed it, and it came out of his mouth in a completely different (and bizarre) way. That doesn't mean he was recommending actually injecting Clorox, people.

This is half the crazy stuff that exits his face: somebody said something mostly-reasonable, he interpreted in a bumper sticker fashion removed from the substance..."

This demonstrates what is wrong with Republicans and the Republican Party these days.

Seriati quotes a guy who basically states that President Donald Trump cannot properly process information, and comes out with "crazy stuff" after hearing something.  That Trump really, truly does not understand what he heard and the implications of it.  And Seriati is fine with that.  He (and the person he quoted) blames the media for making a big deal out of the fact that the President of the United States doesn't understand the substance of what he heard.

If Obama had said anything similar, Republicans would have been slavering at the mouth in outrage.

But you guys have become so corrupted, so inured to the outrageousness of this man, that you don't even realize how utterly incompetent he is.  You don't even realize when you admit it.  You blame everyone else--the media, Liberals, TDS, Never-Trumpers--and not the man who is actually responsible for the BS that comes out of Donald's mouth.  You would rather pretend that someone else is to blame.

This entire thread was started so you could confront, unspun and uninterpreted, the actual words of Donald Trump himself, and see how often they are incorrect, illogical, untrue, and out-and-out lies.  But you don't look at those words, do you?  You always look somewhere else, at someone else, to either explain away the words, or blame someone else for him looking bad.

This is what the party of Personal Responsibility has become.  A party looking for anyone else to blame.

This is what the party of Reason and Logic has become.  A party that ignores what is plain and obvious to even the most casual observer.

This is what the Grand Old Party has become.  Trump's apologists.

I don't expect you guys to hear what I'm saying.  You don't have the ears for it anymore.  You are holding on so tightly to Trump that you refuse to even consider that he is a terrible President, a terrible leader, and a terrible person who never should have gotten this job in the first place.  You have become so blinded by partisanship that you can't see reality anymore.

But just do one thing, if you can.  Do this one thing every time Trump says something.

Just image how you would feel if Barak Obama has said precisely the same thing.

And consider why that might feel a bit different than what you feel about Trump.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: cherrypoptart on April 24, 2020, 07:58:45 PM
But I thought intentions were what counted...

Trump's intentions here are good. They aren't even racist. Black people are suffering the most. If there was some way to get a treatment that people could just inhale that would be perfect. He's not talking about people actually using bleach. Just something like it. Sure it may come to nothing and may not be possible with today's technology but there is nothing wrong with brainstorming. He's just saying what he's thinking. Wishful thinking here to be sure but that's not a crime. It doesn't mean he's incompetent. It's just more like science fiction at this point, where like in The Last Ship they invented a cure that could be spread person to person like the virus itself.

Bringing Obama into it, it wasn't that we didn't think he was competent. It wasn't that he didn't know exactly what he was doing. It was that he was and he did. He was competent and he knew exactly what he was doing. It was just the wrong thing. Obamacare. DACA. NASA. Churches not being able to select their own clergy. The NLRB recess appointment the Supreme Court overruled him on 9-0. I mean you look at how many unanimous Supreme Court rulings you had against Obama and compare that to Trump's record in the Supreme Court where not only is he not getting overruled unanimously but as far as I can see in the headlines most rulings are going in his favor.

Now that's not to say that I find Trump's coronavirus response competent. I don't. He and the CDC really dropped the ball on this at just about every turn. There are valid criticisms there. But this extemporaneous talking that he has a habit of doing isn't a problem. If it reveals that he doesn't understand things then maybe that's a good thing. If he just kept quiet and nodded and no one ever knew wouldn't that be worse?

Just looked up the tidbit about unanimous Supreme Court decisions against Obama to make sure I was right and  found that sure enough I was with even Justice Elena Kagan decrying Obama's chutzpah.

https://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/political_commentary/commentary_by_michael_barone/supreme_court_slaps_down_the_obama_administration
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: LetterRip on April 24, 2020, 08:39:26 PM
Now he is claiming it was sarcasm.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Aris Katsaris on April 24, 2020, 08:40:19 PM
But I thought intentions were what counted...

Trump's intentions here are good. They aren't even racist. Black people are suffering the most. If there was some way to get a treatment that people could just inhale that would be perfect. He's not talking about people actually using bleach. Just something like it. Sure it may come to nothing and may not be possible with today's technology but there is nothing wrong with brainstorming. He's just saying what he's thinking. Wishful thinking here to be sure but that's not a crime. It doesn't mean he's incompetent.

Isn't he now claiming that he was being sarcastic with his suggestion?
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: wmLambert on April 24, 2020, 08:49:22 PM
...you guys have become so corrupted, so inured to the outrageousness of this man, that you don't even realize how utterly incompetent he is.  You don't even realize when you admit it.  You blame everyone else--the media, Liberals, TDS, Never-Trumpers--and not the man who is actually responsible for the BS that comes out of Donald's mouth.  You would rather pretend that someone else is to blame.

No, you are projecting the never-ending attacks on Trump into a conspiracy to confront disinformation when the attacks are disproved. Trump is not racist, yet the Never-Trumpers start with that as a given. It is a lie, yet it is accepted as truth. Those with this anti-Trump mindset really need to stop the straw-man attacks. There is enough cleaning to do in their own stables to keep them busy addressing what they can fix. He is also not incompetent or prone to spewing BS. However; those who claim he is responsible for the pejorative paraphrasing and media disinformation that is pushed out to the public in his name should apologize.

If one compares the ceaseless attacks on Trump with Schiff (for example) the evidence is clear who is being one-sided. Look at Biden and his latest bimbo eruption. Zero coverage in the MSM. Maybe Michael Avenatti should explain how this is possible.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Aris Katsaris on April 24, 2020, 09:39:10 PM
Quote
Trump is not racist, yet the Never-Trumpers start with that as a given. It is a lie, yet it is accepted as truth.

Even if you think the accusation false, it's not a "lie". People accusing Trump of being a racist generally do indeed believe him a racist.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Seriati on April 24, 2020, 09:55:35 PM
Seriati quotes a guy who basically states that President Donald Trump cannot properly process information, and comes out with "crazy stuff" after hearing something.  That Trump really, truly does not understand what he heard and the implications of it.  And Seriati is fine with that.  He (and the person he quoted) blames the media for making a big deal out of the fact that the President of the United States doesn't understand the substance of what he heard.

ScottF and I are not the same person.

My argument on Trump has an echo of the argument I made on Bush and on the way I've described various friends who are prolific story tellers over the years.  With Trump any one that listens to him can tell he rambles, but any person of normal intellect that listens to him can also tell what he means.  There's zero question that anyone of average intellect that listen's to an entire 2 hour press event where he takes more than an hour of questions understands exactly what he thinks the answers are. Yet, supposedly smart media figures not only get the wrong answer, they conspire with each other to make sure the wrong answer is broadly distributed to a whole heck of a lot of people, free from contradictions, that will not themselves listen to the whole press conference.

So let's take a straw  poll, did you listen to the press conference?  And if so, did you believe that Trump recommended that you inject yourself with cleaning products.

I honestly don't believe there's anyone for whom the first answer is yes, and the second answer is also yes, who has a functional IQ.  So why did the media try to convince you - successfully I might add - that this is what occurred?

What does it say about your own critical reasoning if you believe that is exactly what Trump said?  What does it say that you continue to rely on media reports that you must know for a fact are either misrepresenting what was obviously meant, or written by people with below functional IQs?

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If Obama had said anything similar, Republicans would have been slavering at the mouth in outrage.

Well, Obama's a different kind of speaker.  He didn't say nearly as much off the cuff.  My criticisms of Obama was not that he mispoke, but rather that he used his gifts to convince people of false concepts, or even outright lied.

Quote
But you guys have become so corrupted, so inured to the outrageousness of this man, that you don't even realize how utterly incompetent he is.  You don't even realize when you admit it.  You blame everyone else--the media, Liberals, TDS, Never-Trumpers--and not the man who is actually responsible for the BS that comes out of Donald's mouth.  You would rather pretend that someone else is to blame.

Or, like I said, as a person of reasonable intellect and experience with more talking with more than one other person in life, I'm just aware that when Trump speaks he's speaking in a direction, with an intent to get the idea across but not weighing every word or phrase for the exact meaning. 

It's really not that outrageous, and it's not nearly as outrageous as using any phrase you can find out of context to create a strawman argument about what he actually meant or intends.

It is TDS, you don't hold anyone else to the same standard.  Shciff for example has lied over and over and not only do you not care, you approve.

Quote
This entire thread was started so you could confront, unspun and uninterpreted, the actual words of Donald Trump himself, and see how often they are incorrect, illogical, untrue, and out-and-out lies.  But you don't look at those words, do you?  You always look somewhere else, at someone else, to either explain away the words, or blame someone else for him looking bad.

No, I look at why we get Trump's words unfiltered so often.  It's literally because there's no other way.  If the media were just honest and actually fairly reported his positions and didn't try to misrepresent him for damage at every turn, we woulnd't need to hear from him so often.

What has been the most interesting thing about the COVID updates, is the number of people who are not political who've been watching them and telling me they had no idea how far the media was going to try and create false stories.  The media's problem is that unless they get to use clips out of context people get to hear the actual position rather than the lie about the position they want you to hear.

Really, take a pick, do you want the media to accurately relay his positions?  Or are you really defending cherry picking individual statements to create false versions of this position?

It's really that simply.  From your repeated outrage, and projection onto me and others, it's clear you want the lies.

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This is what the party of Personal Responsibility has become.  A party looking for anyone else to blame.

I want to hold the media responsible for their personal decisions to create false stories and misrepresentations for what they perceive to be "the good" of the country (which is literally just DNC partisan advantage) rather than doing their job.  For me, with Trump actions speak louder than the words he uses to describe them.

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This is what the party of Reason and Logic has become.  A party that ignores what is plain and obvious to even the most casual observer.

I find that when people call things "plain and obvious" or "clear" what they really mean is that they believe them strongly on an unexamined and unexaminable basis. 
Quote
I don't expect you guys to hear what I'm saying.  You don't have the ears for it anymore.  You are holding on so tightly to Trump that you refuse to even consider that he is a terrible President, a terrible leader, and a terrible person who never should have gotten this job in the first place.  You have become so blinded by partisanship that you can't see reality anymore.

See that's nonsense, I have considered it, and we both know that you have NEVER considered the inverse.   You've never considered that he's actually a pretty good President that's challenged alot of policies that were flawed (with fair success, but not a perfect record of always identifying a flawed policy), that he's been an effective President and exactly what we've needed at various stages of his term - he's great at removing regulatory overreach, at job creation and even on the economy in general and he's exactly the President we needed for the COVID 19 crisis to break the administrative state roadblocks. 

He's fine leader, but he's never going to be accepted by the Democrats as a leader.  Their reaction (and yours) is unthinking.

As far as being a terrible person, opinions can vary, but I don't recall anyone making such claims on a basis where they almost can breath over the years, and he's been a very public figure for more than 40 years.  I mean is it the adultry?  You don't seem to hate Clinton and he's adulterer (and credible rape claims against him were buried).  Is it the insults?  Those are bad, but you're oddly silent when the left hurls insults at him or really at really at every Republican.

Should he have been President?  Pretty sure I pointed out real time that neither Trump nor Clinton should have been candidates.  But I'm glad he's been the President.  Other than his lack of the "gravitas" he's been exactly what we've needed.

Quote
But just do one thing, if you can.  Do this one thing every time Trump says something.

Just image how you would feel if Barak Obama has said precisely the same thing.

And consider why that might feel a bit different than what you feel about Trump.

I can't count how many times I've said on this board that Obama is one of the most gifted orators that we've ever had as President.  If he sounded like Trump I'd think he was ill, but that's a silly argument.  Like I said, anyone of average intelligence can understand that the way Trump speaks is a style and understand the meaning of what he says.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: DonaldD on April 24, 2020, 11:02:30 PM
Now he is claiming it was sarcasm.
Yes, it's been quite the week for Trump throwing people under the bus: first, it was Georgia Republican Governor Brian Kemp, initially supporting him in his drive to open the state up for business, then, to mix metaphors, pulling the rug out from under his feet as the governor announced plans to open a bunch of industries, even though the state had not yet federal guidelines.

Then, in the past 24 hours, he threw a bunch of true believers under the bus after they didn't get the memo in time, instead defending his idiocy as reasonable, only for him to pull his now infamous "just kidding" move that stands in for him admitting mistakes... it seems that pretty much the whole world, with the exception of those poor true believers, were ridiculing him as less insightful (albeit quite inciteful) than an 8-year-old, and that seems to have been enough for his ego to kick in...
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: cherrypoptart on April 24, 2020, 11:13:27 PM
Yes he said now it was sarcasm and I'm going to say he's not being accurate on the sarcasm bit. Maybe he was searching for the right word to indicate he wasn't being totally serious but instead extemporaneous and it didn't come out sounding very intelligent as can happen when you are just freewheeling your thoughts into words. But does his idea have any merit at all?

A lot of us are getting our internet right now via fiberoptic cable. So those are light pulses going through a cable. And a cable is like a tube. When they intubate to let patients breathe they are sticking a tube down into your body. So instead of an air tube maybe make it a light tube with the virus killing light and you shine that down into the body obviously starting with the throat. See if maybe that kills the virus without killing you first. Like chemo. Then you use nanotubes that are only microns in diameter and you thread those down into the lungs and shine it there. See if that helps. Always check with your doctor first. Maybe for something like this also talk to your astrologist. You want to check your stars because they have a lot of exactly the same kind of light we are talking about here, the kind that can kill viruses.

Okay now see that is sarcasm. It'd be funny though if that could actually work.

Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: wmLambert on April 24, 2020, 11:17:18 PM
...Bringing Obama into it, it wasn't that we didn't think he was competent. It wasn't that he didn't know exactly what he was doing. It was that he was and he did. He was competent and he knew exactly what he was doing. It was just the wrong thing. Obamacare. DACA. NASA. Churches not being able to select their own clergy. The NLRB recess appointment the Supreme Court overruled him on 9-0. I mean you look at how many unanimous Supreme Court rulings you had against Obama and compare that to Trump's record in the Supreme Court where not only is he not getting overruled unanimously but as far as I can see in the headlines most rulings are going in his favor.

Trump has followed the old Rockefeller advice to "surround himself with his betters." Obama had no friends or acquaintances he could appoint to advisory positions. He knew Bill Ayers and Bernardine Dohrn, and a dozen other radicals who couldn't go through the approval process, so he picked up almost the whole Bill Clinton staff and put them back into power. His own people were appointed as Czars without needing approval, so yes, he did know what he was doing.

Quote
Now that's not to say that I find Trump's coronavirus response competent. I don't. He and the CDC really dropped the ball on this at just about every turn. There are valid criticisms there. But this extemporaneous talking that he has a habit of doing isn't a problem. If it reveals that he doesn't understand things then maybe that's a good thing. If he just kept quiet and nodded and no one ever knew wouldn't that be worse?

Trump loves to praise his advisors and advance their ideas and advice. That doesn't make him a narcissist. I just saw a montage of one MSM "big name" after another flat-out lie about Trump, with no regard for truth. One cannot use them to besmirch Trump. His advisors all say he has been spot-on and say he has been great. Why continue the attacks? The so-called "valid criticisms" are nothing of the sort.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: cherrypoptart on April 24, 2020, 11:26:03 PM
I should qualify what I mean when I say the Trump response to the coronavirus was not competent. Okay now to me I saw this coming but I could have been wrong. It turns out I wasn't. Just looking at what happened in China made it obvious that this was something unlike anything we had ever seen before and the usual measures would be insufficient. And now for the disclaimer. It wasn't just Trump or the CDC or the NIH who dropped the ball. It wasn't just yes men because the same thing happened at the World Health Organization. And they are hardly Trump supporters. Just about everyone in charge of everything got it wrong on this one. The only ones who were right were the chicken littles who screamed that the sky was falling and it's hard to take them seriously when nothing like this has ever happened before. Maybe the closest thing is the Spanish Flu pandemic and this is even different from that. The measures taken by Trump and the WHO and the advice given may have been adequate for the Spanish Flu but this thing is completely new and totally different.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: wmLambert on April 24, 2020, 11:35:21 PM
...The measures taken by Trump and the WHO and the advice given may have been adequate for the Spanish Flu but this thing is completely new and totally different.

Have you been actually following this? Everything you just said is nonsense. Firstly, not Trump and the WHO, but Trump and the CDC. The WHO lied and abetted the Chinese. Trump is the guy who put cross-hairs on the WHO, for which the USA is the primary sponsor. Maybe playing hardball will improve their efforts.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: cherrypoptart on April 25, 2020, 12:05:59 AM
I'm not sure how it's nonsense. Everyone in charge underestimated how deadly and contagious the virus is. They kept travel going long after it should have been halted. The quarantines were insufficient. The CDC testing criteria was absurd. If some of the people who had no travel links to China had been tested earlier we would have known a lot more than we did. It's almost as if they didn't want to know.  By only testing people with China travel contacts it ensured we would remain in the dark as to how widespread it was. And we're still in the dark on that even now because of that. You test someone who had travel contacts to China and they have it and what have you learned? Nothing. Best just to assume they have it if they have symptoms and quarantine them and give them treatment as needed. But you test someone in some other city with no contacts and if they have it that tells you something you didn't know before. We could have caught the community spread much earlier. Then we have the whole mask issue and all the health care professionals catching it and dying. That is not just on the WHO. That's on us too. That's not being prepared. That's a direct result of wearing rose colored glasses and assuming the most optimistic possibilities instead of playing it safe and preparing for the worst.

But as to your point about the WHO being incompetent or worse in bed with China, on that we agree. The mistake we made was to rely on them for anything. The mistake the states made was to rely on the federal government and the CDC. What we learned is that people who are supposed to protect us either can't or just for whatever reasons didn't.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: wmLambert on April 25, 2020, 04:29:13 PM
...The mistake we made was to rely on them for anything. The mistake the states made was to rely on the federal government and the CDC. What we learned is that people who are supposed to protect us either can't or just for whatever reasons didn't.

Again, nothing you said makes any sense. Who have you been listening to? Trump stopped travel when Pelosi was having hug-ins in China Town. WHO was endorsing China's lies, and Democrats swallowed the lies, hook, line, and sucker. Trump threw on the restrictions when the rest said not to. Now you claim he was wrong? Trump ramped up production of ventilators and Protective Equipment, and we have never run short. Just what is your problem?
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on April 25, 2020, 04:32:27 PM
Sigh, you're not really adorable, you're a psychofant.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: wmLambert on April 25, 2020, 07:48:01 PM
Sigh, you're not really adorable, you're a psychofant.

The term is Sycophant, and you are using it wrong, anyway. The CDC used bad models because the modelers had bad information with bad metrics. New info is coming in now showing the actual rate of those who have contracted it without even knowing they ever had it, puts the morbidity rate at tenths of a percent - less than the winter flu.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDeamon on April 25, 2020, 10:20:57 PM
If in a business, somebody came into a meeting so unprepared, and started to ask the presenter something equivalent to whether injection of alcohol or chlorine might be helpful... that person wouldn't be long for the company.  While positing that mooting something a child could tell you is a bad idea is some kind of 3-dimensional chess move might be entertaining, the idea that Trump is using his stupidity as strategy really has no basis in reality.

The "strategery" on that one was the media trying to put the most negative spin they possibly can on what he said, which in turn gives him more ammo to use against them going forward.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDeamon on April 25, 2020, 10:28:46 PM
Trump didn't tell people to inject themselves, Trump did ponder if injecting bleach or alcohol could work.  I would very much care if he said the first but don't care to spend time taking about the second unless its a debate on if such pondering should be pondered on a presidential briefing Live. The distraction is the stupid debate and to what did intend to say about bleach and were missing the point by not talking about the real stuff like the antibody test status.

In the context of what he said, as dumb as it was, it's fully on par with Star Trek: Discovery's "It's like Sonar in Space!" quote.

He mentioned a proverbial treatment("something like that"-bleach and UV light) which could achieve the same thing in the human body.

Nothing about his statement indicates he seriously thought injecting someone with bleach was a good idea.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: DonaldD on April 25, 2020, 11:07:22 PM
Quote
The "strategery" on that one was the media trying to put the most negative spin they possibly can
The media didn't need to put any spin on what he said.  Anybody listening, who then replayed it in slow-mo, would come to the conclusion that Trump mooted injecting disinfectant into humans as a possible cure that should be investigated.

He did not tell people to inject themselves, nor even did he promise that it would actually work - but he did suggest that time and effort be expended investigating whether injecting bleach or rubbing alcohol into human bodies might be beneficial ... as opposed to being immediately fatal.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on April 26, 2020, 07:09:40 AM
Sigh, you're not really adorable, you're a psychofant.

The term is Sycophant, and you are using it wrong, anyway. The CDC used bad models because the modelers had bad information with bad metrics. New info is coming in now showing the actual rate of those who have contracted it without even knowing they ever had it, puts the morbidity rate at tenths of a percent - less than the winter flu.

I know the word.  I made this one up (yay, me!) to point out that you have a certain twist of mind that forces you to reflexively say things to make Trump look like he wants to be seen.  It has even taken over whatever math skills that you may have once had, since the death rate from the flu is "rated" at 0.1% (one-tenth of one percent), so if the COVID19 rate turns out to be "tenths of a percent" (0.2% - 0.9999...%), that would be, uh, more, not less.  You can verify this on a calculator, or just ask someone you trust whether what I'm saying is "left math" or just "math".

BTW, the most hopeful model put the projected fatality total in the range of 60,000 - 100,000 through at least the end of July.  We're on a path to exceed the lower bound by next week, 3 months earlier than the prediction estimated.  My guess is that the total will be between 80,000 - 100,000, but could go higher, maybe far higher, depending on how quickly and how well states relax the "social" constraints.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: cherrypoptart on April 26, 2020, 07:19:54 AM
The key words in the Trump quote are "something like that".

I didn't get the sense that he was suggesting injecting bleach into someone. He's talking about something new that hasn't been invented yet. I hope anyway...

"A question that probably some of you are thinking of if you’re totally into that world, which I find to be very interesting. So, supposedly we hit the body with a tremendous, whether it’s ultraviolet or just very powerful light, and I think you said that hasn’t been checked, but you’re going to test it. And then I said supposing you brought the light inside the body, which you can do either through the skin or in some other way. (To Bryan) And I think you said you’re going to test that, too. Sounds interesting, right?"

"And then I see the disinfectant, where it knocks it out in one minute. And is there a way we can do something like that, by injection inside or almost a cleaning, because you see it gets in the lungs and it does a tremendous number on the lungs, so it’d be interesting to check that, so that you’re going to have to use medical doctors with, but it sounds interesting to me. So, we’ll see, but the whole concept of the light, the way it kills it in one minute. That’s pretty powerful."

It's like someone suggesting you could maybe stop tornadoes by electrically powering the wind turbines so they spin fast enough to counteract the wind of a tornado, just of course being careful that you direct them properly so the winds cancel out instead of multiplying each other and making the tornado even stronger. And then you could use the same principle with the offshore wind farms to stop hurricanes. I mean yeah it's pretty stupid but whatever; just brainstorming. If someone said something like that should they have to worry about a person taking a Chinese silk folding fan with a dragon design on it and running at a tornado or into the middle of a hurricane like a jousting Don Quixote trying to wave the fan furiously enough to create enough wind to stop the storms? It's all just absurd but not anything to get terribly worked up about.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on April 26, 2020, 07:25:03 AM
Quote
The key words in the Trump quote are "something like that".

I didn't get the sense that he was suggesting injecting bleach into someone. He's talking about something new that hasn't been invented yet. I hope anyway...

Again, that is a (very) hopeful interpretation.  But if that's all he was saying, why have disinfectant manufacturers rushed out warnings not to ingest their products?  Why have doctors made PSAs to make sure people know that disinfectants are poisons (and used as embalmers)?  Why has the NYC Health Department had a surge of calls from people who have had exposure "specifically about exposure to Lysol, 10 cases specifically about bleach and 11 cases about exposures to other household cleaners"?
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: cherrypoptart on April 26, 2020, 07:29:06 AM
There are some really dumb people out there. Maybe the tide pod eaters were ahead of their time.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: DonaldD on April 26, 2020, 08:47:30 AM
The existence of stupid people is not news - it is exactly why Lysol et al rushed to make it clear that injecting, and even ingesting, disinfectant products is a really bad, dangerous idea, and it is one more reason why the president suggesting it might be a useful thing to study in public, broadcast live to millions of americans was exceptionally stupid as well. It's not the only reason, mind you - this was multivariate stupid on the president's part.  It was graduate studies level stupid.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: LetterRip on April 26, 2020, 11:04:29 AM
IQ approximates a Bell Curve - 160 million Americans have IQs under 100, 82 million have IQs under 90,  33 million IQs under 80, and 8 million have IQ's under 70.  It isn't clear what the threshold would be that would result in oversimplifying the message and thinking it would be a good idea to drink disinfectant, but there are huge numbers of people that that probably is the case.  Definitely the under 70's, probably the under 80's, and quite likely many of the under 90's.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on April 26, 2020, 11:31:13 AM
To put the same thing a little differently, the comedian George Carlin once said that the average American is pretty stupid, which means that half of us are dumber than that.  I'm always hoping that the average IQ will rise, but this isn't the way to get there.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: DonaldD on April 26, 2020, 11:41:52 AM
By definition, the average IQ will never rise :)
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDeamon on April 26, 2020, 12:03:09 PM
By definition, the average IQ will never rise :)

Exactly, by definition, the Average IQ can never go above(or below) 100.  8)
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on April 26, 2020, 12:03:59 PM
Pedants! [ok, you're right...WAIT!  Who says 100 is the average?  On a test 100 is a perfect score.  Let's raise it to 105 and see what happens!]
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDrake on April 26, 2020, 12:21:10 PM
Just brainstorming... Lol. If that's a brainstorm it's not even a light drizzle.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDeamon on April 26, 2020, 12:32:49 PM
Just brainstorming... Lol. If that's a brainstorm it's not even a light drizzle.

It's a case study in Management styles that are effective in one setting may not be appropriate, or particularly effective, in others.

I do think this is legitimately a style/preference issue, certainly not one I'd expect to see happen involving a PotUS, but can certainly see Trump doing it.

On the business and administrative end, I think Trump is probably reasonably effective, albeit significantly hindered by how his personal style clashes with the establishment in Washington.

On the leadership during a crises side of the spectrum, he's leaving a lot on the table and much to be desired. None of his prior experience can be leveraged to help him handle this situation in a "Presidential" manner, and as Trump is very much a person of habit, we end up with more of the Keystone Cops/Three Stooges as a consequence.

But on the other hand, he's also helping solidify his base politically, anybody who was reasonably impartial or slightly favorable towards Trump prior to all of this is likely to be more solidly in his corner now. But it comes at a cost, as those who didn't like Trump in the first place are even more polarized in the other direction. But the 2020 election calculus is about his ability to get his supporters out the vote, and making sure the people who don't like him either split their vote, or don't bother to show up to vote for Biden at this point.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDrake on April 26, 2020, 12:52:51 PM
This isn't a style issue. It's like the executive chef musing that maybe they should put sauerkraut on a souffle in front of customers and food critics.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: wmLambert on April 26, 2020, 06:42:45 PM
...It's a case study in Management styles that are effective in one setting may not be appropriate, or particularly effective, in others.

I do think this is legitimately a style/preference issue, certainly not one I'd expect to see happen involving a PotUS, but can certainly see Trump doing it.

On the business and administrative end, I think Trump is probably reasonably effective, albeit significantly hindered by how his personal style clashes with the establishment in Washington.

The analysis is on creative group problem solving - not on business and administrative problem solving - which is normally the antithesis of creativity. When Trump restates the ideas put forward by his advisors, the media could help by playing by the creativity hopefulness in which the ideas are created - instead, they put the kibosh and anything and everything, which stultifies any creativity. IOW, they are working against solving any problems.

Here's an example of correct journalistic reportage: "The President mentioned the effectiveness of UV light and disinfectants today, hoping for scientific tests and research that can use them safely. Is this realistic? We'll need to see what the doctors and scientists come up with. Trump is certainly encouraging them to look hard."

There is no need to pretend he was asking for people to poison themselves If they thought that, then the proper reaction would be say not so, when reporting it.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: LetterRip on April 26, 2020, 07:15:11 PM
This isn't a style issue. It's like the executive chef musing that maybe they should put sauerkraut on a souffle in front of customers and food critics.

More like the business partner that provided the money but has no knowledge of cooking.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Aris Katsaris on April 26, 2020, 07:52:03 PM
Here's an example of correct journalistic reportage: "The President mentioned the effectiveness of UV light and disinfectants today, hoping for scientific tests and research that can use them safely. Is this realistic? We'll need to see what the doctors and scientists come up with. Trump is certainly encouraging them to look hard."

Actually that's not correct journalistic reportage, it's missing the bit where he suggests researching putting them inside the human body, not just "generic effectiveness" (we know about their effectiveness on e.g. disinfecting surfaces).

The commentary of "Is this realistic?" and "We'll need to see what the doctors and scientists come up with" is also hardly 'correct journalistic reportage'.

Such a reportage would be like reporting on flat-earthers with "Are flat-earthers correct? We'll have to see what response the experts come up with."
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: DonaldD on April 26, 2020, 10:54:35 PM

Here's an example of correct journalistic reportage: "The President mentioned the effectiveness of UV light and disinfectants today, hoping for scientific tests and research that can use them safely. Is this realistic? We'll need to see what the doctors and scientists come up with. Trump is certainly encouraging them to look hard."
As Aris mentioned, it would be reporting malpractice not to point out that, although the presentation discusses the effectiveness of disinfectants on surfaces, the president misunderstood the presentation and thought it was discussing the effectiveness of disinfectants as medicine, specifically disinfectants as medicine that could be injected into the human body.  Whether the media also need to point out just how unprepared the president had to have been to make this suggestion is another possible topic of reportage.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDrake on April 27, 2020, 12:24:20 PM
It's really just another example of Trump believing he's the smartest guy in the room. He knows more about ISIS than generals, remember? It's easy to understand that he also thinks he knows more about medicine than the doctors, and that his narcissism has him believing that his off the cuff comment could lead doctors to investigate something no virologist has thought of yet.

He also knows more than anyone else about trade, visas, renewable energy, taxes, money, infrastructure, technology, drones, construction, and... Cory Booker.

Trump knows everything (https://www.countable.us/articles/18643-trump-says-knows-anybody)
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Fenring on April 27, 2020, 12:29:45 PM
To put the same thing a little differently, the comedian George Carlin once said that the average American is pretty stupid, which means that half of us are dumber than that.  I'm always hoping that the average IQ will rise, but this isn't the way to get there.

Not true! If dumb people inject themselves fatally the average intelligence of 100 IQ will indeed rise :)

On the other hand, it would also mean that everyone's numerical IQ would go down...
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: yossarian22c on April 27, 2020, 01:32:56 PM
Quote
What is the purpose of having White House News Conferences when the Lamestream Media asks nothing but hostile questions, & then refuses to report the truth or facts accurately. They get record ratings, & the American people get nothing but Fake News. Not worth the time & effort!

"Record ratings," but not worth his effort to show up and talk with the American people.  ::)

Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: yossarian22c on April 27, 2020, 01:44:49 PM
The analysis is on creative group problem solving - not on business and administrative problem solving - which is normally the antithesis of creativity. When Trump restates the ideas put forward by his advisors, the media could help by playing by the creativity hopefulness in which the ideas are created - instead, they put the kibosh and anything and everything, which stultifies any creativity. IOW, they are working against solving any problems.

In this best case interpretation of what Trump was saying would you agree that it is stupid to do it during a press conference. CEO's don't have brainstorming sessions during interviews, press briefings, or during investor meetings. Brainstorming sessions are done in private and the best results are then made public. Please stop defending this idiot statement at an idiotic time. Trump isn't even defending it anymore, he called it sarcastic, which is wasn't, then canceled all news briefings so he doesn't have to answer questions from the press anymore.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on April 27, 2020, 02:40:20 PM
To put the same thing a little differently, the comedian George Carlin once said that the average American is pretty stupid, which means that half of us are dumber than that.  I'm always hoping that the average IQ will rise, but this isn't the way to get there.

Not true! If dumb people inject themselves fatally the average intelligence of 100 IQ will indeed rise :)

On the other hand, it would also mean that everyone's numerical IQ would go down...

You're saying if dumb people inject disinfectant or swallow lightbulbs and die, the rest of us only get smarter until they recalibrate the test scores, because that's what regression to the mean is all about, I guess.  That's too bad, because I was hoping I would be able to balance my checkbook before that happens.  Isn't there some other test I could take instead?
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Fenring on April 27, 2020, 03:24:17 PM
You're saying if dumb people inject disinfectant or swallow lightbulbs and die, the rest of us only get smarter until they recalibrate the test scores, because that's what regression to the mean is all about, I guess.

I mean that the species would be smarter on average, and yes, that the median changing would mean that everyone's current IQ score would have to recalibrated lower than it currently is. Imagine Mensa members being kicked out because too many stupid people died :)
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: wmLambert on April 27, 2020, 07:30:04 PM
The analysis is on creative group problem solving - not on business and administrative problem solving - which is normally the antithesis of creativity. When Trump restates the ideas put forward by his advisors, the media could help by playing by the creativity hopefulness in which the ideas are created - instead, they put the kibosh and anything and everything, which stultifies any creativity. IOW, they are working against solving any problems.

In this best case interpretation of what Trump was saying would you agree that it is stupid to do it during a press conference. CEO's don't have brainstorming sessions during interviews, press briefings, or during investor meetings. Brainstorming sessions are done in private and the best results are then made public. Please stop defending this idiot statement at an idiotic time. Trump isn't even defending it anymore, he called it sarcastic, which is wasn't, then canceled all news briefings so he doesn't have to answer questions from the press anymore.

Actually, you are incorrect. Trump is addressing more than just the public, he is also addressing myriads of researchers and smart people who are looking in and hoping for something to help them in their work. It's just the way it is. Presidents use the bully pulpit to motivate and encourage, not just to disseminate metrics. When a researcher says something in abstruse ways, a good host will make sure that info is made understandable. Too many posters here have the idea that he says things off the cuff that are unwarranted, but in reality, he rarely moves away from what his advisers have stated - he just makes it more understandable, then the MSM tries to confuse things, working against him.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: NobleHunter on April 27, 2020, 07:35:05 PM
If that's true, then he's doing a terrible job of it. Because I'd wager most research did not feel motivated and encouraged by his blathering about light and disinfection.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: DonaldD on April 27, 2020, 08:34:48 PM
Trump is addressing more than just the public, he is also addressing myriads of researchers and smart people who are looking in and hoping for something to help them in their work.
Trust me, not a single researcher or smart person is looking to Trump for medical research ideas. 
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: yossarian22c on April 28, 2020, 12:54:00 PM
The analysis is on creative group problem solving - not on business and administrative problem solving - which is normally the antithesis of creativity. When Trump restates the ideas put forward by his advisors, the media could help by playing by the creativity hopefulness in which the ideas are created - instead, they put the kibosh and anything and everything, which stultifies any creativity. IOW, they are working against solving any problems.

In this best case interpretation of what Trump was saying would you agree that it is stupid to do it during a press conference. CEO's don't have brainstorming sessions during interviews, press briefings, or during investor meetings. Brainstorming sessions are done in private and the best results are then made public. Please stop defending this idiot statement at an idiotic time. Trump isn't even defending it anymore, he called it sarcastic, which is wasn't, then canceled all news briefings so he doesn't have to answer questions from the press anymore.

Actually, you are incorrect. Trump is addressing more than just the public, he is also addressing myriads of researchers and smart people who are looking in and hoping for something to help them in their work. It's just the way it is. Presidents use the bully pulpit to motivate and encourage, not just to disseminate metrics. When a researcher says something in abstruse ways, a good host will make sure that info is made understandable. Too many posters here have the idea that he says things off the cuff that are unwarranted, but in reality, he rarely moves away from what his advisers have stated - he just makes it more understandable, then the MSM tries to confuse things, working against him.

Trump says he was asking a sarcastic question to reporters (absolutely a blatant lie if you watch the video).

So do you think Trump is a liar about saying its sarcasm or was he sarcastically speaking to medial researchers by presenting ideas like a 6 year old?

"Why can't we inject disinfectant into the body" is a reasonable idea from a kindergartner but is absolute nonsense from a "stable genius."

Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on April 28, 2020, 01:45:03 PM
Quote
So do you think Trump is a liar about saying its sarcasm or was he sarcastically speaking to medial researchers by presenting ideas like a 6 year old?

"Why can't we inject disinfectant into the body" is a reasonable idea from a kindergartner but is absolute nonsense from a "stable genius."

Why can't it be both?  He lied when he said it was sarcasm and he tossed it off with the same level of confidence and worldly insight that any 6 year old could probably muster.  I have to point out yet again that in a contest to see who is the real stable genius, Mr. Ed is still way out ahead on points.  However, if the two of them could find a way to work together in the White House, that would definitely be a ratings winner.  To which as we always say, Neigh, neigh!
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: ScottF on April 28, 2020, 04:29:46 PM
A publicly-traded biotech company called Aytu BioScience has been developing a device to test "internally Applied Ultraviolet Light as a Novel Approach for Effective and Safe Anti-Microbial Treatment". The device is called Healight and in (very) early dev. stage. A paper from Cedars-Sinai Medical Center writes that "these findings suggest that UVA therapy can potentially provide a safe and effective novel approach to antimicrobial treatment via phototherapy on internal organs". Kind of like, oh I dunno - light inside the body?

No definitive results yet, not FDA approved, nobody claiming it will ever work. But it's EXACTLY in line with Trump's adhoc statement of "...[bringing] the light inside the body, which you can do either through the skin or in some other way”.

Here's where it gets more interesting. Youtube removed the Atyu Bioscience company video highlighting the proof of concept device the day after Trump's quotes made headlines. It was removed for "violating community standards".

So a publicly-traded biotech company has a video on youtube clearly stating that they're in early proof of concept stage for a device, created based on an abstract from Cedars-Sinai Medical Center paper, that is investigating exactly the kind of device Trump talked about.

Trump gets pilloried by the wisest among us at the very idea that such a thing could exist.

"Hurka-durka  - idiot Trump wants us all to swallow lightbulbs or stick lamps up our butts, hurka-durka stupid Trump(tm)!"

Then people start discovering that it turns out that such a thing is being researched and potentially developed, as evidenced by a legit company video on Youtube. Youtube quickly removes video which prior to Trump mention was ok but now violates terms.

This is the simulation winking at us.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: rightleft22 on April 28, 2020, 05:03:26 PM
I've heard about light treatment a while ago and as for the 'bleach' pondering Trump was basically describing a chemo like treatment.

The issue was if such pondering belong in the briefing, if it was helpful, and how that information was communicated - Trump was making a joke, setting a trap, wasn't speaking literally... so intention has to be implied which is going to involve bias.

Is such communication style presidential and good for the country? - Does it make America great. 
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: DonaldD on April 28, 2020, 05:10:50 PM
Trump gets pilloried by the wisest among us at the very idea that such a thing could exist.
No - Trump got pilloried because he suggested injecting disinfectant into human bodies.  Those were separate topics.

"And then I see the disinfectant.  It knocks it out in a minute - one minute. Something like that by injection inside or almost a cleaning."
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: ScottF on April 28, 2020, 05:24:25 PM
They are separate areas of derision. He was also hammered for suggesting "internal light" options.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: ScottF on April 28, 2020, 05:27:34 PM
I've heard about light treatment a while ago and as for the 'bleach' pondering Trump was basically describing a chemo like treatment.

The issue was if such pondering belong in the briefing, if it was helpful, and how that information was communicated - Trump was making a joke, setting a trap, wasn't speaking literally... so intention has to be implied which is going to involve bias.

Is such communication style presidential and good for the country? - Does it make America great.

See this I agree with. I think it's stupid of him to "brainstorm" in real time as part of a press conference. Like, really stupid. If it seems like I'm defending that vs calling out reactions to it, I've done a poor job.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Aris Katsaris on April 28, 2020, 05:32:14 PM
A publicly-traded biotech company called Aytu BioScience has been developing a device to test "internally Applied Ultraviolet Light as a Novel Approach for Effective and Safe Anti-Microbial Treatment". The device is called Healight and in (very) early dev. stage. A paper from Cedars-Sinai Medical Center writes that "these findings suggest that UVA therapy can potentially provide a safe and effective novel approach to antimicrobial treatment via phototherapy on internal organs". Kind of like, oh I dunno - light inside the body?

No definitive results yet, not FDA approved, nobody claiming it will ever work. But it's EXACTLY in line with Trump's adhoc statement of "...[bringing] the light inside the body, which you can do either through the skin or in some other way”.

Here's where it gets more interesting. Youtube removed the Atyu Bioscience company video highlighting the proof of concept device the day after Trump's quotes made headlines. It was removed for "violating community standards".

So a publicly-traded biotech company has a video on youtube clearly stating that they're in early proof of concept stage for a device, created based on an abstract from Cedars-Sinai Medical Center paper, that is investigating exactly the kind of device Trump talked about.

Trump gets pilloried by the wisest among us at the very idea that such a thing could exist.

"Hurka-durka  - idiot Trump wants us all to swallow lightbulbs or stick lamps up our butts, hurka-durka stupid Trump(tm)!"

Then people start discovering that it turns out that such a thing is being researched and potentially developed, as evidenced by a legit company video on Youtube. Youtube quickly removes video which prior to Trump mention was ok but now violates terms.

This is the simulation winking at us.

Also are you sure causality isn't reversed in much of what you describe?

Some guy has a ultraviolet-ray untested treatment they are perhaps researching (if it's not just a scam). Trump is told about it, and supports such research, because POPULARITY for him, if it works, he is now the saviour of humanity -- and nobody gives a *censored* if it doesn't work. And investors perhaps flock to that possibly-scam research, right? So big-win for the guy who 'informed' Trump of it.

Trump wasn't the first person on the planet to suggest hydroxychloroquine too. We didn't bash Trump for doing so because hydroxychloroquine wasn't a real thing, as you seem to be thinking. We are bashing him because either way it's not the job of the president to be brainstorming in public about yet untested treatments.

That his latest suggestion involved researching into injecting disinfectants (and incidentally also UV light, another generic disinfectant who will destroy lots of things, not just the things we want destroyed), is just the cherry on top.

Yes, Trump, congratulations, even in the case that your idea isn't completely moronic (as the bleach thing was), it's just completely useless and ONLY counterproductive instead: you've instead ensured that people will be invested POLITICALLY in whether that particular research bears fruit or not. In either direction. If the guys researching this were legit, they're now thinking "*censored*, now everyone will be associating my research with Trump. It'll drive away anyone properly educated." instead. But if they weren't legit they'll be happy, because the money of morons are as good as the money of intelligent people, and they don't actually need researchers, just people to scam.

But my guess is that Trump can't be content with supporting medical science in general, he must name himself specific treatments, so that they can hopefully contribute to his personal glory.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Wayward Son on April 28, 2020, 06:43:56 PM
"When will all of the 'reporters' who have received Noble Prizes for their work on Russia, Russia, Russia, only to have been proven totally wrong (and, in fact, it was the other side who committed the crimes) be turning back their cherished 'Nobles' so that they can be given to the REAL REPORTERS & JOURNALISTS who got it right."

Deleted tweet of our Very Sane Genius President, Donald Trump--a "genius" who doesn't know the difference between the Nobel Prize and a Noble Prize. :)  And didn't realize that there is no Nobel Prize for journalism.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on April 28, 2020, 06:45:26 PM
He was being socrastic.  He do that a lot.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: wmLambert on April 28, 2020, 07:04:42 PM
...I think it's stupid of him to "brainstorm" in real time as part of a press conference. Like, really stupid. If it seems like I'm defending that vs calling out reactions to it, I've done a poor job.

In actuality, a disinfectant does not need to be toxic to target specific things. Trump did not say to drink Lysol or bleach. Healight has been mentioned in multiple posts in multiple threads. I mentioned that we use light internally during many operations already. Using UV light would not be a stretch.

Just for you know-it-alls who don't know any better, a chemical that destroys vegetative forms of harmful microorganisms does not have to destroy healthy tissue. If you want it to, then what kind of morality do you champion? You want Trump to look stupid, so you create a straw man to ridicule.

Also, Trump was not brainstorming. He was leading a discussion of medical advisors to answer questions from a largely hostile group of Leftwing activists posing as journalists. One of the things mentioned with sunlight being a disinfectant and humid air helping. We ingest humid air all the time. Every CPAP machine has a water reservoir to provide humid air internally. Isn't penicillin a disinfectant? I guess we just rub that externally on the body, neh?

Oh wait. Activists with an agenda want to redefine whatever Trump says in whatever ludicrous way they can get away with. They did that by telling us the idiots who drank fish-tank cleaner did it because Trump told them to.

I don't particularly care for the "sarcasm" excuse. That was what Schiff did when he lied about the Ukraine phone call. I don't think it was the proper term for what Trump did, when he asked his advisers if there is some way to use the light, humidity, and disinfectant internally. He wasn't addressing the media at the time. He had turned to the doctors and addressed them directly.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Aris Katsaris on April 28, 2020, 07:19:41 PM
Moreover; the Trump brainstorming is exactly that. Only the least gracious would deny answering in the way they should. Is there a way to use UV light and disinfectants safely? No, injections like drug fixes are stupid, but how about the Healight that Crunch mentioned?

Also, Trump was not brainstorming. He was leading a discussion of medical advisors to answer questions from a largely hostile group of Leftwing activists posing as journalists.

So was Trump brainstorming or wasn't he?

Just for you know-it-alls who don't know any better, a chemical that destroys vegetative forms of harmful microorganisms does not have to destroy healthy tissue.

So if we're not talking bleach (or similar), we're going back to he's merely suggesting to doctors that perhaps they ought inject some completely unspecified stuff to patients, that'll make them better.

Because doctors and researchers had never thought of anything like the concept of injecting people with stuff to make them better, and they needed Trump to tell them to look into this.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: rightleft22 on April 28, 2020, 07:32:07 PM
Quote
I don't particularly care for the "sarcasm" excuse. That was what Schiff did when he lied about the Ukraine phone call. I don't think it was the proper term for what Trump did, when he asked his advisers if there is some way to use the light, humidity, and disinfectant internally. He wasn't addressing the media at the time. He had turned to the doctors and addressed them directly.

I read your post and just don't know if I should laugh or cry

As a apologist, your the best - He wasn't addressing the media in the media briefing... Just two people shooting the breeze during a briefing naively unaware others were listing who might take whats said seriously and at face value.

Personally I don't think such incidences are accidental, If not the President may have issues remembering where he is and who hes talking to, learning from past communication 'misunderstandings', doesn't care enough to do better., has no clue as to the details of the issues he's talking about... Or maybe hes just is naive. Non of which are great attributes of a good leader, or even good enough leader. We should want better
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDrake on April 28, 2020, 07:37:44 PM
Quote
One of the things mentioned with sunlight being a disinfectant and humid air helping. We ingest humid air all the time.

Trump didn't say ingest. He said inject. They have very different meanings. A diabetic can't swallow insulin, and you wouldn't want to inject penicillin. I'd give Trump a pass for having a slip of the tongue, but Trump "knows words" and he has "the best words".
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: NobleHunter on April 28, 2020, 09:28:05 PM
In actuality, a disinfectant does not need to be toxic to target specific things. Trump did not say to drink Lysol or bleach. Healight has been mentioned in multiple posts in multiple threads. I mentioned that we use light internally during many operations already. Using UV light would not be a stretch.

Just for you know-it-alls who don't know any better, a chemical that destroys vegetative forms of harmful microorganisms does not have to destroy healthy tissue. If you want it to, then what kind of morality do you champion? You want Trump to look stupid, so you create a straw man to ridicule.

You know, none of this makes Trump sound any better. Your "defense" makes it sound like Trump is too stupid or ignorant to know about anti-virals. Which would be a much less confusing way to talk about something that "disinfects" only the virus.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: DonaldD on April 29, 2020, 11:52:25 AM
They are separate areas of derision. He was also hammered for suggesting "internal light" options.
He was primarily hammered for his 'ideas' about injecting poison. You don't see a lot of LED memes out there, but the Chlorox and Lysol memes are everywhere.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: wmLambert on April 29, 2020, 12:04:35 PM
...Your "defense" makes it sound like Trump is too stupid or ignorant to know about anti-virals. Which would be a much less confusing way to talk about something that "disinfects" only the virus.

No, the only stupidity shown here is assuming the doctors he was asking the question to, know that the report which said "disinfectants" can kill the virus has any use.  No one assumes anti-virals is the end-all and be-all. Sunlight is anti-viral in affect, neh? The report also said humidity helps. Why even bring up anti-virals as if naming them is a dagger in  President Trump's back?
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: NobleHunter on April 29, 2020, 12:07:07 PM
Because something that kills the virus without unduly harming the rest of the body is called an anti-viral.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDeamon on April 29, 2020, 12:12:18 PM
I don't particularly care for the "sarcasm" excuse. That was what Schiff did when he lied about the Ukraine phone call. I don't think it was the proper term for what Trump did, when he asked his advisers if there is some way to use the light, humidity, and disinfectant internally. He wasn't addressing the media at the time. He had turned to the doctors and addressed them directly.

The better word to use likely would have been "I was speaking rhetorically" on that matter, but that's a 5 dollar word and outside his reach.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on April 29, 2020, 02:16:01 PM
It wasn't sarcasm.  Better if he had said he was indulging in persiflage.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Wayward Son on April 29, 2020, 05:56:18 PM
The bottom line is that even the question about disinfectants used within the body shows Trump's level of ignorance.  He obviously has no idea how disinfectants like alcohol kill bacteria and viruses (or he would have known how stupid that question was), and he has so little faith and belief in medical professionals (or such an overinflated ego) that he thinks he can come up with an obvious idea that none of them had considered.

It just demonstrates that the man if an utter fool.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: cherrypoptart on April 29, 2020, 10:42:11 PM
"Better if he had said he was indulging in persiflage."

Good word. Perhaps another concern is that he apparently doesn't understand the meaning of the word sarcasm.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on April 30, 2020, 07:47:06 AM
"Better if he had said he was indulging in persiflage."

Good word. Perhaps another concern is that he apparently doesn't understand the meaning of the word sarcasm.

:) That's why I used it.  He has all the best words, like a dictionary does.  But if you never open the dictionary you might not know what they mean.  I'm not sure he knows what the word "inject" means, either.  Is he thinking that you could use a 3D inject printer with disinfectant ink?
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on May 04, 2020, 09:49:48 PM
Looks like the Washington prediction has been removed from the CDC website a day after they changed their high end prediction of fatalities from 74K to 134K.  Also, the CDC has disavowed an internal study draft that projects that the daily fatality rate will more than double by June 1.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Seriati on May 05, 2020, 09:25:17 AM
I really don't understand why the "predictions" keep changing.  As I understand it nothing we are currently doing is actively working to reduce the total number of infections long term.  The expectation is that eventually the majority of people in the country will catch the virus and the only benefit of destroying the economy through lockdowns is that maybe we won't have too many serious cases in any one location for it's hospitals to manage.  While it's not clear that hospitals can do much to help the serious cases, it is clear that not treating the moderate cases will increase fatalities.

Wouldn't it be better to alter the lockdowns to lock down everyone high risk and force as much of the low risk population as possible into close proximity?  Unless we're talking a cure - which may or may not even be possible - isn't that the best approach?  To get the maximum number of the population least likely to need hospital care infected as rapidly as possible, thus ensuring maximum herd exposure on the shortest time scale with the lowest number of deaths?
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on May 05, 2020, 09:37:57 AM
Quote
I really don't understand why the "predictions" keep changing.

Then you have a problem.  Models product outcomes based on data informed by assumptions that are then tested.  Change the assumptions and you'll change the outcomes.  Why say "predictions" instead of predictions?

Quote
Wouldn't it be better to alter the lockdowns to lock down everyone high risk and force as much of the low risk population as possible into close proximity?

Your plan is to weed out the high risk people and weak people in lower risk categories.  That's very noble of you.  I bet one infected grandchild could wipe out a big portion of a nursing home.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: DonaldD on May 05, 2020, 09:46:31 AM
The recent changes in the modelled projections were based on loosening suppression restrictions, as well as based on updates to actual cases and deaths (previous projections were for deaths this past week to have been averaging around 1000/day and dropping, as opposed to the actuals of between 1500 and 2000 per day.)
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Seriati on May 05, 2020, 09:57:32 AM
Again Kasandra, you seem to be answering questions made up in your own mind.

My understanding is that absent a cure, the expectation is that most of the population is going to be infected.  The point of everything we are doing is to spread that infection out, NOT to reduce the total amount of infections.  If I'm wrong on that then confront that issue directly.

DonaldD, if my understanding is correct, the total deaths won't change absent hospital capacity being overwhelmed.  How rapidly they occur will change.  Is the model time limited on its projection?
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on May 05, 2020, 10:13:13 AM
Think harder.  Are you suggesting that the original model projecting 2,000,000 deaths if nothing was done to mitigate the pandemic is still correct, that 2,000,000 will still die, and is in agreement with predicted outcomes from all other models?
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: DonaldD on May 05, 2020, 10:15:19 AM
The model of which I am aware (that showed 60k then was adjusted up to 72K) shows deaths up until August 4 - however, it also projected that deaths would drop to zero by July.  I think that was based on idealized behaviours country-wide, and the projected drop off in cases and deaths seemed more aggressive than was recently experienced in other countries.  I think there was a challenge between modelling idealized behaviours mathematically and the complexities of the real world... and as i mentioned, it did not take into account the changing strategies, where loosening restrictions would occur well above the model's trigger values.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: yossarian22c on May 05, 2020, 10:22:28 AM
My understanding is that absent a cure, the expectation is that most of the population is going to be infected.  The point of everything we are doing is to spread that infection out, NOT to reduce the total amount of infections.  If I'm wrong on that then confront that issue directly.

No that doesn't have to be the case. We are trying to reduce the total number of infections. If we get the number of infections in a given area down low enough to control with contract tracing and expanded testing then we can control the disease without herd immunity. But that also probably means we aren't going back to mass events and lots of airline travel until a vaccine arrives.

When Buffet is dumping an entire sector (airlines) I think it means that he isn't expecting airline equity to have any value. They are all going bankrupt, capacity is way too high for the next year.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: DonaldD on May 05, 2020, 10:22:44 AM
Yup - just checked - the model (https://covid19.healthdata.org/united-states-of-america) has now been updated with the past week's historical numbers, and the trend no longer shows a steep drop of deaths down to zero by the end of June.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: ScottF on May 05, 2020, 10:22:48 AM
Think harder.  Are you suggesting that the original model projecting 2,000,000 deaths if nothing was done to mitigate the pandemic is still correct, that 2,000,000 will still die, and is in agreement with predicted outcomes from all other models?

I think you're conflating original death predictions (regardless of scenario) with overall infection expectations. I believe Seriati is asking if some people believe we should be trying to prevent overall infections as a permanent objective vs staggering inevitable infections ie the original curve-flattening mantra.

Personally, I don't think many people believe the former, or at least they're not saying it out loud.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: DonaldD on May 05, 2020, 10:27:49 AM
My understanding is that absent a cure, the expectation is that most of the population is going to be infected.
Not necessarily - if we can get the infection load low enough, and if we can get the R0 below the level of exponential growth with relaxed suppression methods, then we will likely have bought enough time for a vaccine to be developed, and probably also to have better treatments available.

Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: ScottF on May 05, 2020, 10:53:41 AM
What has the average overall infection rate of seasonal flu been the past few years? Seems to me the high end of that number would be the best-case for the lower range of covid infection %.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: DonaldD on May 05, 2020, 10:59:36 AM
That's certainly a rule of thumb, but the numbers are not really comparable. We don't normally lock down public places and have people isolate themselves annually... To take it to the extreme, if everybody self-isolated perfectly, COVID-19 would disappear within weeks and would not approach normal seasonal flu rates of infection.  The effectiveness of current isolation measures have a direct effect on those numbers, and that effectiveness is a pretty large unknown at this point.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on May 05, 2020, 11:24:12 AM
Until we have an effective vaccine that will moot the different model projections and strategies, the disease will continue to move through the population.  If it moves more slowly (due to restrictions and protections) and the death rate declines due to more effective treatments, the death total won't climb as quickly and won't reach as high. It's pretty simple math.  Since most of the models assume we can't prevent deaths more effectively than we do now and can't prevent people from being infected, they will generally arrive at similar death totals, but at different points in time.

But, having said that, I think that deaths will decline in the most high risk venues as we get smarter about preventing those people from coming in contact with people who are already infected.  As sad and tragic as it feels, not allowing visitors into nursing homes, and significantly scaling back unprotected production facilities like meat packing plants should be stringently enforced.  We can't stop stupid behaviors, though, so I expect the infection (and therefore death) rate to climb in less densely populated areas of the country while it declines in urban areas that have been hard hit but are continuing the commercial and social venue restrictions and enforcing self-protections.  Here is one projection for new cases of NYC vs. the rest of the country (https://ibb.co/RTHCVSX).
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: DonaldD on May 05, 2020, 11:34:35 AM
Also something to note - the virus/pandemic models do not take into account any societal effects, be they resulting health outcomes from depression or isolation or unemployment, or from delayed treatments and loss of access to hospitals, or from health providers becoming overworked and less effective...
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: yossarian22c on May 05, 2020, 11:39:07 AM
If you are really resigned to everyone being infected then you could advocate for challenge trials of vaccines. Challenge vaccine trials would take the various vaccine proposals that have gotten through phase 1 testing and test a large number of people then a couple weeks later deliberately expose them to the virus and see who gets sick. NPR had an ethicist on the other day who advocated that people should be allowed to volunteer for those types of studies so that we can potentially move the vaccine timeline from 12-18 months down to 2-4 months.

Its extreme but a utilitarian argument would say it is likely to save lives in the long run even if some of the volunteers died.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: yossarian22c on May 05, 2020, 11:47:04 AM
Personally I am not opposed to allowing people to volunteer for a challenge vaccine trial. In a study of 2-4 thousand otherwise healthy adults we would expect 4-10 deaths if the vaccine weren't effective at all. But following phase 1 trials we should be able to test to see if people were producing anti-bodies to the virus and control the initial viral load (keep it small). Adding those final two factors there would be people likely to become ill but it is very possible that you could run the trial without fatalities and save a lot of lives in the long run. It goes against the last 40-50 years of medical ethics to run trials like that on humans but this is an extreme case.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on May 05, 2020, 11:55:02 AM
You're making the hopeful assumption that a vaccine candidate in that sort of challenge trial wouldn't be ineffective or produce its own harmful effects.  That's not a safe assumption, so it's possible that the number of infections (with its own R factor) and deaths would be much higher.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: yossarian22c on May 05, 2020, 12:08:25 PM
You're making the hopeful assumption that a vaccine candidate in that sort of challenge trial wouldn't be ineffective or produce its own harmful effects.  That's not a safe assumption, so it's possible that the number of infections (with its own R factor) and deaths would be much higher.

This would be post phase 1 trials, where vaccines are tested for safety and harmful side effects. Also given that we are knowingly infecting people they would be quarantined for 3 weeks following the intentional exposure to the virus.

It is entirely possible the vaccine would be completely ineffective. However, as I am viewing the current political climate it looks like we don't have the political will to shut down long enough to get the number of new infections low enough to control with contact tracing and enhanced testing. Given that it looks like we're on a path as a society to allow people to more or less be randomly infected I don't see a good reason to avoid exposure for scientific and societal gains. If I thought we had a chance to get down to chinese levels of new infections per day I would be much more hesitant to advocate for early human trials but I don't want that kind of totalitarian government response. Also, the protesters have made it very clear the only way to have a shut down that effective would be through extreme government authority. So given the political realities I see allowing vaccines that successfully pass phase 1 and whose participants have produced coronavirus anti-bodies to be rushed into a larger human trial with deliberate exposure to the virus.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: DonaldD on May 05, 2020, 02:02:27 PM
OK, so Pompeo is not Trump, but he seems to be channelling Trump (https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/week-transcript-20-mike-pompeo-gov-mike-dewine/story?id=70478442)
Quote
RADDATZ: Do you believe it was manmade or genetically modified?

POMPEO: Look, the best experts so far seem to think it was manmade. I have no reason to disbelieve that at this point.

RADDATZ: Your -- your Office of the DNI says the consensus, the scientific consensus was not manmade or genetically modified.

POMPEO: That's right. I -- I -- I agree with that. Yes. I've -- I've seen their analysis. I've seen the summary that you saw that was released publicly. I have no reason to doubt that that is accurate at this point.

RADDATZ: OK, so just to be clear, you do not think it was manmade or genetically modified?

POMPEO: I've seen what the intelligence community has said. I have no reason to believe that they've got it wrong.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: yossarian22c on May 05, 2020, 02:29:11 PM
Trump's response to why Fauci can't testify before the house.

Quote
Because the House is a set up. The House is a bunch of Trump haters. They put every Trump hater on the committee, the same old stuff.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on May 05, 2020, 03:10:00 PM
Hannah Arendt tried to draw a line between what she saw as evil and the banality of evil.  Those with the intent to do harm could be called evil, but those who were following orders without particular personal animosity toward their victims demonstrated the banal aspect of doing evil.  Some who work for Trump or follow his orders do it enthusiastically and believe as he does.  A few here might fall into that category.  But most who carry out their orders are functionaries or bureaucrats simply doing their jobs.  The vast majority of civil servants and military workers whose actions harm sometimes a great number of people are in the latter category, even though they are likely well aware of the death and suffering they directly and indirectly cause. 

I don't know which category to put Pompeo into, even though carries out and follows the twists and turns of Trump's policy objectives and goals with gusto.  I tend to think he has higher aspirations for office once Trump leaves, which might put him in a separate category from either of those two, perhaps as a "House of Cards" kind of player, where power is all he really believes in. 
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: DonaldD on May 06, 2020, 08:06:37 AM
Sigh.  Trump lies again: CNN sends cease and desist letter to Trump campaign (https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/may/5/cnn-sends-cease-and-desist-letter-to-trump-campaig/)
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: rightleft22 on May 06, 2020, 09:20:33 AM
Trump's response to why Fauci can't testify before the house.

Quote
Because the House is a set up. The House is a bunch of Trump haters. They put every Trump hater on the committee, the same old stuff.

Good thing Trump is a republican can you imagine the reaction otherwise.   
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: ScottF on May 06, 2020, 10:33:25 AM
Trump (or his spokespeople) should take the Rachel Maddow approach every time he's accused of lying. Maddow is being sued in a defamation case for making false statements.

I couldn't care less about the case, but her attorney's primary strategy seems to be that she was clearly offering up her “own unique expression” of her views to capture what she saw as the “ridiculous” nature of the undisputed facts.

“Her comment, therefore, is a quintessential statement ‘of rhetorical hyperbole, incapable of being proved true or false,’”

If she wins the case, it's kind of a get out of jail free card for anything you feel like saying. Trump's people should just copy/paste that every time he says something stupid. It's rhetorical hyperbole, incapable of being proved true or false.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: DonaldD on May 06, 2020, 10:43:08 AM
Yes, of course it's fine that Trump lies as a general rule, because Rachel Maddow is getting sued.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on May 06, 2020, 10:48:30 AM
You don't think that's Trump's MO?  He has called the entire Democratic Party the "Party of Hate", which is only one among 1000's of absurd hyperbolic insults he has tossed off from his perch in the bullying pulpit.  Do you think that Rachel Maddow is more deserving of being sued than him?
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: yossarian22c on May 06, 2020, 10:53:51 AM
Trump (or his spokespeople) should take the Rachel Maddow approach every time he's accused of lying. Maddow is being sued in a defamation case for making false statements.
...
If she wins the case, it's kind of a get out of jail free card for anything you feel like saying. Trump's people should just copy/paste that every time he says something stupid. It's rhetorical hyperbole, incapable of being proved true or false.

How is this different from how they respond now? If anything this feels like Maddow (or her lawyer) taking a page out of Trump's book. Truthful hyperbole; rhetorical hyperbole; two sides of the same coin.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Seriati on May 06, 2020, 01:28:05 PM
Think harder.  Are you suggesting that the original model projecting 2,000,000 deaths if nothing was done to mitigate the pandemic is still correct, that 2,000,000 will still die, and is in agreement with predicted outcomes from all other models?

Nothing I said would plausibly lead to your statement.  The projections for doing nothing assume a catastrophic rate of infection across all populations including the vulnerable.  They assume the medical infrastructure becomes overwhelmed almost immediately at that effectively moderate cases that would respond to medical intervention largely go untreated.  Effectively, the death toll is much higher than it had to be.

That said, and I think people got this in later comments, if our only defense it going to be herd immunity then the right question is whether we are going too slowly and exposing the herd in a manner that makes little sense.  This why I asked about increasing the low risk population's exposure, but only to a point that the medical system can handle the cases.  Given their lower incidence of severe consequences a large part of the population could catch and resolve COVID in a relatively short order if we could protect the high risk during this time.

Contact tracing seems like more of a pie in the sky than a vaccine.  That's the same plan that the CDC was running at the time of the travel ban, and this disease's ability to spread through asymptomatic carriers makes it very unlikely that contact tracing without extreme permanent social distancing controls could ever work.  For those who seem to want a permanent lock-down with Governors ruling by decree it's become the new gold standard.  I mean think it through, to work, you'd have to empower the government to test literally everyone for the virus and order retesting at will, to track the movements and contacts of every citizen at all times, and to literally prohibit any gathering of people that isn't monitored or controllable by the government.  Where exactly is Anti-fa when their reason supposed for existence is actually threatening?
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: DonaldD on May 06, 2020, 01:36:33 PM
The projections for doing nothing assume a catastrophic rate of infection across all populations including the vulnerable.  They assume the medical infrastructure becomes overwhelmed almost immediately at that effectively moderate cases that would respond to medical intervention largely go untreated.  Effectively, the death toll is much higher than it had to be.
This is untrue.  The Imperial College paper/models (https://www.imperial.ac.uk/media/imperial-college/medicine/sph/ide/gida-fellowships/Imperial-College-COVID19-NPI-modelling-16-03-2020.pdf) specifically excludes the knock-on effects of the infections: "In total, in an unmitigated epidemic, we would predict approximately 510,000 deaths in GB and 2.2 million in the US, not accounting for the potential negative effects of health systems being overwhelmed on mortality."
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: ScottF on May 06, 2020, 01:40:57 PM
Ugh, I doubt it was your intent, but that clarification makes those numbers appear even less credible.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: DonaldD on May 06, 2020, 01:49:19 PM
Why - just because the numbers are big, and you don't want to believe large, modelled mortality numbers?

Look, the worst case number was never going to happen - the paper was very clear about this.  Even absent government actions, people faced with rising numbers of affected during a pandemic will change their behaviours unilaterally.  That very particular worst-case number was purely a mathematical construct.  You really don't need to spend effort arguing against it.

But given your adamant resistance, where is your mathematical analysis showing why the 2.2M number is overstated?
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDrake on May 06, 2020, 01:56:00 PM
What makes them not credible to you, Scott? Alternate projections from other sources? I can visualize this  very easily looking at NYC as a model. If the NY Knicks and Islanders were still playing, concerts happening, restaurants and bars packed, what would NYC contribution be alone considering they already had 25k deaths with extreme measures. A do nothing model also assumes people are freely visiting nursing homes, nobody is wearing masks, etc. Other major urban centers would have followed this path, probably not as accelerated but still happening. Considering that one person in a restaurant was shown to infect nine people, how long would it really take to infect most of the population of an urban area with public transit operating at maximum?
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on May 06, 2020, 02:56:36 PM
Quote
Nothing I said would plausibly lead to your statement.

It's clear that nothing you ever say leads to my statements.  SAD!
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: ScottF on May 06, 2020, 03:47:53 PM
What makes them not credible to you, Scott? Alternate projections from other sources? I can visualize this  very easily looking at NYC as a model.

That's part of the credibility issue. NY had more deaths than 41 other states combined - using that as a model for the entire country isn't realistic. But I'm not super invested in circling back around on model validity, as DonaldD stated, the "do nothing" model was never going to be a reality anyway.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Seriati on May 06, 2020, 05:23:36 PM
Actually, it's both a fair point and moderately absurd DonaldD.  I should not have have assumed that the numbers posed as the death toll if we do nothing were rationally calculated.  So they assumed catastrophic rates of transmission, but no impact for overwhelmed medical systems.  That means the model is garbage, and was largely based on an unknown (the actual death rate, which especially early on was based on misinformation).

In reality there are 3 groups of death connected to COVID-19:
I see no reasonable way that our social distancing is impacting group one.  They are going to die at some point if we don't arrive at real treatment option.

Group two, however, is have their lives saved by a system that stretches the infection out.  That ensures that medical resources will be available when they catch it, to allow them to receive the medical treatment that saves their lives, but isn't available in if the medical systems get overwhelmed.

Group three are the lives traded to save group two lives.  These are people that die because of suicide, or because of lock down related issues, or because of deferred medical care that was deemed unnecessary.  They are also the people that were in China, if the rumors are to be believed, that were locked into their homes healthy to let a Totalitarian government stop the spread of a virus.  If you were being fair, this also includes all the knock on people that are harmed because their economic livliehood or jobs disappear and the negative consequences that passes on included increases in suicides, crimes and abuse.

Absent a game changer in treatment, if I understand it correctly, the doctors don't seem to believe that social distancing changes the ultimate infection penetration materially only the length over which it occurs (same number of infections in 2 years versus 2 months).  In other words, they believe at some point say 80m people will catch it either way.  If that's true then Group 1 deaths are fixed absent a game changer in treatment.  Group 2 and Group 3 deaths are avoidable but reciprocal.  Imposing too little containment lowers Group 3 consequences but risks Group 2 deaths (and makes it look like people are dying at a greater rate because of the speed).  Excessive containment on the other hand increases Group 3 consequences but DOES NOT change Group 2 deaths over "ideal" containment.  Effectively, the lock down should be calculated to keep the hospitals busy, and if at any time they are not, we are causing more Group 3 harm for no additional Group 2 benefit.

Excessive lockdowns that make it "appear" that the death rate is slowing down by stretching Group 1 deaths are just fake, they are an "appearance" of slower Covid deaths with a very heavy Group 3 cost.  But coincidentally, they make the local politician look better because they are held accountable for the COVID deaths but not the Group 3 deaths (except when they fudge the accounting to count any "extra" deaths as COVID deaths).

So if the projections are showing changes in deaths that are unrelated to advances in treatment at a time when hospitals are not overwhelmed, they can only be showing - in my view - stretching results from time shifting.   Anyway that's the the thought.  A downwards change appearing in a model, without a treatment change is evidence that the government is delaying herd immunity inefficiently (it does not represent ANY lives actually saved).

Absent a real plan there's no way to change the Group 1 deaths  Herd immunity could get us there if it were developed while protecting the most at risk population, which is going to be the largest chunk from which Group one cases come.  Maybe even Group two cases.  Wiki implies you can see herd benefits starting at 40% infection, but that it probably needs to get to 80-95%.  I've never seen any account that implies a significant part of the population is high risk.

I got sparked thinking about this when I was reading a NYT piece that effectively said we shouldn't expect to see a vaccine for decades.  We will probably develop better treatment that can mitigate more cases more rapidly, but practically speaking, "beating" this almost certainly means wide spread infection by those not at high risk to starve the virus of hosts in which to propagate.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: DonaldD on May 06, 2020, 05:39:40 PM
Quote
So they assumed catastrophic rates of transmission
No.  All you need to do is read the paper.  Why don't you just read the paper?  The 2.2M was based on a perfectly reasonable R0 of 2.4.

And unless you include a vaccine as 'treatment', then your analysis that the same number of people would eventually get infected and die is incorrect.  Once you get an effective vaccine, you can get the herd immunity in place in months.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: ScottF on May 06, 2020, 05:43:38 PM
How are you defining "effective" re: vaccine? The current flu vaccine appears to be about ~40% effective overall.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: DonaldD on May 06, 2020, 06:10:08 PM
Seasonal flu vaccines are predictive - we guess which influenza strains in the northern hemisphere will be most active in the next season based on what is active in the southern hemisphere, include those strains, and then hope.  And vice versa for the southern hemisphere flu season.

In this case, we know which virus is being targeted. Any vaccine will not be perfect, might not even be possible, and might be ineffective based on how much the novel coronavirus mutates over a period of time, but it is not the same level of guess-work.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDrake on May 06, 2020, 06:30:58 PM
Seriati, I don't mind your analysis, it has a lot of merit. Have you seen any estimates of what group 3 costs would look like? Either way, an exponential growth of cases of doing nothing clearly ends in disaster. How many people land in group 3 because we aren't having mass events like sports? Versus not opening bars, or not opening hair salons?

There's also an economic cost of having 2 million people die over 2 years versus two months, as this level of infection rate is going to send a significant number of people home anyway. As well as the psychological cost for Group 4 - the number of people who suicide, enter into substance abuse, or become unable to perform work because they lost 4 family members in a month.

Buying time is about identifying treatment strategies as well as other strategies. Now at least some areas can start playing with those knobs and having to back off if they start going exponential.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on May 06, 2020, 07:56:33 PM
Quote
In reality there are 3 groups of death connected to COVID-19:
First, those who catch it and die in spite of effective medical treatment;
Second, those who catch it and for whom effective medical treatment would have kept them alive; and
Third, those who die because of the consequences of the methods we use to fight the infection.

You're finessing a 4th group, which are those who die from co-morbidities for which there are no effective treatments, and a 5th group who die without having been tested for the virus.  Those two groups largely go into the "excess deaths" category, which could be a vast number of people who as yet are largely uncounted.  Whereas official statistics count about 72,000 COVID deaths, the real number might be as much as 100,000 or even more.  And then there is a 6th group, which are people who recover from the disease and are impaired, requiring additional medical attention for extended periods of time, possibly the rest of their lives.  A whole 'nother discussion should be had about whether and how those people will contribute to society by working or drain society by absorbing health care costs.

Quote
These are people that die because of suicide

Suicides are also related to many non-virus causes, including overwhelming depression due to changes in their lives.  I know one 24 year old who suffered from neurological depression and committed suicide for exactly that reason.  We will very likley see a surge in suicides in coming months and years that can be traced back to job and personal changes in circumstances.

Quote
So if the projections are showing changes in deaths that are unrelated to advances in treatment at a time when hospitals are not overwhelmed, they can only be showing - in my view - stretching results from time shifting.

You assume that deaths deferred cannot be prevented because present circumstances don't have effective treatments.  I think the opposite is just as likely, if not moreso.  Yes, it might be decades before a vaccine is developed, but that is an extremely pessimistic outlier perspective, perhaps as unlikely as the opposite optimistic estimate of an effective vaccine being available by the end of this year.

But remember that there is still no vaccine for AIDS, and yet the death rate has dropped from over 90% to practically 0.  We don't know what we don't know, but the assumptions you are making that fit the model you are using don't fit other models that would work out better.  So, as opposed to models as you seem to be, you've come up with one of your own that you prefer over those others.

However, if you (and Crunch, among others) think we should just get to herd immunity as fast as possible, I would encourage you to decide which risk group you fall into. If it's the low risk group, do society a service in this pandemic war and find someone who has the disease and give them a big hug.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: ScottF on May 06, 2020, 08:00:20 PM
Seasonal flu vaccines are predictive - we guess which influenza strains in the northern hemisphere will be most active in the next season based on what is active in the southern hemisphere, include those strains, and then hope.  And vice versa for the southern hemisphere flu season.

In this case, we know which virus is being targeted. Any vaccine will not be perfect, might not even be possible, and might be ineffective based on how much the novel coronavirus mutates over a period of time, but it is not the same level of guess-work.

Fair enough, are you then saying that "effective" in your previous context is undefinable? I have a tough time reconciling opinions that posit "once we have an effective vaccine" with "might not even be possible" simultaneously.

I know the former was in response to herd immunity viability. What's your personal take on re-opening vs waiting?
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: DonaldD on May 06, 2020, 08:09:21 PM
People are going to die.  There is no way to avoid this.  Hopefully, we will have done 2 things: reduced R0 to substantially below 1.0, and also reduced the infection load in the population so the linear increase in cases has a lower base value.

If we can relax suppression actions while keeping both requirements met, then we should do so.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: ScottF on May 06, 2020, 08:11:58 PM
People are going to die.  There is no way to avoid this.  Hopefully, we will have done 2 things: reduced R0 to substantially below 1.0, and also reduced the infection load in the population so the linear increase in cases has a lower base value.

If we can relax suppression actions while keeping both requirements met, then we should do so.

That feels a bit cagey. Should Oregon re-open now or wait until July, per the governor? I'm not claiming my answer is the perfect one (now) but I'm stating it plainly.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: ScottF on May 06, 2020, 08:12:41 PM
Suicides are also related to many non-virus causes, including overwhelming depression due to changes in their lives.  I know one 24 year old who suffered from neurological depression and committed suicide for exactly that reason.  We will very likley see a surge in suicides in coming months and years that can be traced back to job and personal changes in circumstances.
Mostly correct but it doesn't necessarily have a months/years tail. LA County has seen a 9X increase in crisis line calls since the lockdown, statistically 20% of which are suicide-related.
Quote
However, if you (and Crunch, among others) think we should just get to herd immunity as fast as possible, I would encourage you to decide which risk group you fall into. If it's the low risk group, do society a service in this pandemic war and find someone who has the disease and give them a big hug.
Ugh. Some times you have interesting things to say and sometimes you can't help yourself. I suppose we're all subject to the same reflexes, I think it's a dopamine thing.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: DonaldD on May 06, 2020, 08:38:39 PM
That feels a bit cagey. Should Oregon re-open now or wait until July, per the governor? I'm not claiming my answer is the perfect one (now) but I'm stating it plainly.
What are you talking about?  This is basically the prescribed strategy for relaxing the suppression rules: on a regional or even a community by community basis, relax certain rules that are likely to have limited risk, and preferably most benefit.  Measure. Then either reinstate some portion of those rules, maintain them as is, or relax more rules.  Repeat.

Whereas the term "re-open" is meaningless, unless you mean remove all measures currently in place, in which case, you'll be back to March all over again by the end of May, and will likely set back neighbouring regions as well.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Seriati on May 06, 2020, 09:08:47 PM
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So they assumed catastrophic rates of transmission
No.  All you need to do is read the paper.  Why don't you just read the paper?  The 2.2M was based on a perfectly reasonable R0 of 2.4.

A rate of 2.4 is on the high end of what is believed to have been the transmission rate of the 1918 flu pandemic (which is speculation because it wasn't measured) that killed 50 million people.  Under their base case they assume an 81% infection rate throughout the entire US population (within less than 6 months), with peak deaths occurring in the US by June.  That's roughly 300 million infected.  Why would you dispute that this was a catastrophic transmission rate?

The projections for doing nothing assume a catastrophic rate of infection across all populations including the vulnerable.  They assume the medical infrastructure becomes overwhelmed almost immediately at that effectively moderate cases that would respond to medical intervention largely go untreated.  Effectively, the death toll is much higher than it had to be.
This is untrue.  The Imperial College paper/models (https://www.imperial.ac.uk/media/imperial-college/medicine/sph/ide/gida-fellowships/Imperial-College-COVID19-NPI-modelling-16-03-2020.pdf) specifically excludes the knock-on effects of the infections: "In total, in an unmitigated epidemic, we would predict approximately 510,000 deaths in GB and 2.2 million in the US, not accounting for the potential negative effects of health systems being overwhelmed on mortality."

The authors of the paper discussed in great detail the issue that medical capacity would be overwhelmed leading to unnecessary deaths.  You are correct they did not "add" a special increase to the charts for the capacity constraints.  However, at the time of their calculation the largest data sources were China (whose data is suspect) and Italy, where in fact the real time situation was the death rate with an overwhelmed hospital capacity.

They assumed a rough 0.66% death rate among among those infected, which when you run by their assumed 81% infection rate in the US works out to their 2 million estimate.  The measures they went through don't show any change in the total death count other than be reducing the infection rate.

Did you understand their recommendations on that?  They recommended suppression of the virus, to try to push the infection rate below 1, and they pretty much indicated that any less stringent mitigation would not materially impact the death toll but rather delay it - which is exactly what I said above.

A lot of their assumptions around controlling the virus have not played out as true.  Transmission may be higher than they believed, infection periods longer, they certainly didn't get right the level of lock-downs and closures that would occur and they rather erroneously believed there was no reason to cancel mass gatherings because the risk of infection during them would be too low.  That said, it looks like a pretty good bit of work.

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And unless you include a vaccine as 'treatment', then your analysis that the same number of people would eventually get infected and die is incorrect.  Once you get an effective vaccine, you can get the herd immunity in place in months.

I mentioned vaccine multiple times.  It's not "my analysis" as you refer, it's what the doctors are telling you if you read their work.  Even the study you cited doesn't rely on medical treatment other than a vaccine or natural herd immunity.  That's why they advocated trying to suppress the disease with isolation, as "mitigation" would not materially reduce the death rate and doing nothing would in fact overwhelm hospital capacity and increase deaths.

If we get a treatment that changes the death rate off of that 0.65% THAT is a game changer, or if we get a medical treatment (like a vaccine) that can push that rate of transmission below 1 THAT is a game changer.  Best case on the latter is quoted as 18 months, though if you consider we've been fighting AIDs for near 40 years and still don't have an HIV vaccine and that real time to develop a novel viral vaccine could be decades it seems far more likely that just as with AIDs we're far more likley to mitigate the death rate in the near future.

If we can't change the death rate, and the vaccine is not a near future event, our ONLY options are extreme isolation until all carriers die off or herd immunity.  In that circumstance, we absolutely should be maximizing exposure of low risk individuals to build herd immunity as rapidly as possible.  Which by the way, is almost literally one of the cases the authors of your study tested with their extreme social distancing of individuals 70 plus as a way to control the potential death rate.  In fact, cutting exposure in that group by half would almost certainly lower that  0.66% rate.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on May 06, 2020, 09:20:15 PM
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Ugh. Some times you have interesting things to say and sometimes you can't help yourself. I suppose we're all subject to the same reflexes, I think it's a dopamine thing.

Seriati's position is that low risk people are the path to herd immunity.  Increased deaths will happen in the meantime, as they are happening in Sweden, for example, but that's the price we have to pay.  The "path" is for those people to get infected and recover with individual immunity.  The sooner they do that, the sooner we'll get there.  The question to be answered is who is going to take that step on the path.  Sound better?
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: DonaldD on May 06, 2020, 11:29:44 PM
A vaccine is, by definition, not a treatment. 

Regardless, your whole argument seemed to be that delaying the infections would have no material effect on the eventual death count - but of course, with increasingly effective treatments and/or a vaccine, delaying infections would have a significant effect on the eventual death count.  Ignore that if that allows you to pretend you have a valid point.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDeamon on May 06, 2020, 11:31:55 PM
Think harder.  Are you suggesting that the original model projecting 2,000,000 deaths if nothing was done to mitigate the pandemic is still correct, that 2,000,000 will still die, and is in agreement with predicted outcomes from all other models?

I never dug too deep into the 2 million dead number myself, I also thought it was a bit low for a 1% mortality rate among a population of 330 million -- which would net 3.3 million. Assuming a 0.5% mortality rate in a scenario where Hospitals are not overwhelmed, you're still looking at half that number, 1.65 million people dead. If the mortality is 0.25% instead, and nearly the entire population ends up infected, you're still looking at 875 thousand dead before it is over.

But part of the models that were being shown in March were showing where tens of thousands were dying due to their inability to be sent to the ICU because that capacity (for ventilation/ECMU) had already been greatly exceeded. We still haven't conclusively sorted out treatment options just yet, but we DO now also know we have another Covid19 problem floating around for a small percentile of infected children in the form Kawasaki Disease as at least a short-term side-effect, there may be other longer term impacts yet to be identified.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDeamon on May 06, 2020, 11:35:44 PM
What has the average overall infection rate of seasonal flu been the past few years? Seems to me the high end of that number would be the best-case for the lower range of covid infection %.

Going to disagree, the Flu has (Somewhat) effect vaccine programs helping limit its ability to spread, as well as lingering degrees of herd immunity for those who have encountered comparable strains in the semi-recent past(for them personally). Covid19 has no such herd immunity to help limit its ability to spread, only social distancing and isolation works for it at present.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Seriati on May 07, 2020, 12:26:19 AM
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Ugh. Some times you have interesting things to say and sometimes you can't help yourself. I suppose we're all subject to the same reflexes, I think it's a dopamine thing.

Seriati's position is that low risk people are the path to herd immunity.  Increased deaths will happen in the meantime, as they are happening in Sweden, for example, but that's the price we have to pay.

Close.  My position is rooted in it being the price will will pay.  It's not a consequence of our choice, rather it's the inevitable result of any choice we could make (other than extreme isolation). 

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The "path" is for those people to get infected and recover with individual immunity.  The sooner they do that, the sooner we'll get there.  The question to be answered is who is going to take that step on the path.  Sound better?

The point of our mitigation efforts is to maintain adequate medical reserve capacity.  Ergo if we have unused capacity and a bill that we still have to pay, we are going too slow.  If we hit the top of the capacity we went too fast.

The point of my approach is to move that 81% of the population as fast as possible through the infection with the minimum amount of deaths.  Effectively, if we could isolate the elderly and high risk completely, for whom the death rate is over 10%, and let everyone for whom the death rate is say 0.05% or lower out of containment to mingle, then the death rate of infections wouldn't end up being the blended 0.66% but instead something much much lower.  By doing that we can keep the hospitals from being overwhelmed while achieving the maximum rate of getting herd coverage.  Once we get herd coverage that will in fact lower the total deaths.  We will ultimately have suppressed the death totals because we'll never pay the 0.66% rate.  The vulnerable wont be exposed to an 81% penetration at all which means the blended average will be much lower and the total deaths much lower.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: ScottF on May 07, 2020, 02:22:23 AM
That feels a bit cagey. Should Oregon re-open now or wait until July, per the governor? I'm not claiming my answer is the perfect one (now) but I'm stating it plainly.
What are you talking about?  This is basically the prescribed strategy for relaxing the suppression rules: on a regional or even a community by community basis, relax certain rules that are likely to have limited risk, and preferably most benefit.  Measure. Then either reinstate some portion of those rules, maintain them as is, or relax more rules.  Repeat.

Whereas the term "re-open" is meaningless, unless you mean remove all measures currently in place, in which case, you'll be back to March all over again by the end of May, and will likely set back neighbouring regions as well.

What is the current R0 value for Oregon? I’m using a Oregon arbitrarily but if, as you say, it's a key metric to determine lockdown policies, surely we should know where it stands in order to make appropriate decisions for regions and states? I can find tests, cases, fatalities and hospital stats but that R-naught data seems hard to come by.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on May 07, 2020, 07:02:03 AM
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The point of my approach is to move that 81% of the population as fast as possible through the infection with the minimum amount of deaths.  Effectively, if we could isolate the elderly and high risk completely, for whom the death rate is over 10%, and let everyone for whom the death rate is say 0.05% or lower out of containment to mingle, then the death rate of infections wouldn't end up being the blended 0.66% but instead something much much lower.  By doing that we can keep the hospitals from being overwhelmed while achieving the maximum rate of getting herd coverage.  Once we get herd coverage that will in fact lower the total deaths.  We will ultimately have suppressed the death totals because we'll never pay the 0.66% rate.  The vulnerable wont be exposed to an 81% penetration at all which means the blended average will be much lower and the total deaths much lower.

I would call your approach faux modeling, since you only have assumptions, but no data or methodology.  In other words, you can assert this simple, straightforward and safe path to the end of the pandemic without fear of contradiction, since there is nothing to contradict.  If you want this to be more credible, lay out the specifics for how to isolate "the elderly and high risk completely", where the number 0.66% comes from, likewise for 81%.  I call what you propose the "kill you now, kill me later" plan. 

Note for the record that Sweden has the 7th highest fatality rate (https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/?utm_campaign=homeAdvegas1?#countries) from (known cases of) coronavirus out of over a 100 countries reporting more than 1000 confirmed cases.  That number only rises with each new death, and never falls even if people stop dying from the disease.  The US is 9th on that list (up from 10th yesterday), and our fatality rate is climbing much faster than Sweden's and many other countries, even as the fatality rate in the so-called "epicenter cities" in the US are seeing their rates decline.

Your model fails to account for unique real-world aspects of this virus.  For instance, some experts are expecting an even bigger wave of infections and deaths next fall and winter.  That won't happen if we reach herd immunity before then, but they essentially don't believe that we will achieve that saturation effect.  The virus is also mutating in ways suggesting altered strains may have a different infection mechanism.

There are many other things to consider that your simplistic approach fails to account for.  OTOH, yours is a good story with a happy ending, exactly what everyone is hoping for.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: DonaldD on May 07, 2020, 08:28:06 AM
What is the current R0 value for Oregon? I’m using a Oregon arbitrarily but if, as you say, it's a key metric to determine lockdown policies, surely we should know where it stands in order to make appropriate decisions for regions and states? I can find tests, cases, fatalities and hospital stats but that R-naught data seems hard to come by.
We have to use proxies, since we aren't testing adequately, or cannot be testing adequately just yet.

A consistent downward trend in newly reported cases and daily deaths over a couple of week period would be a good secondary set of measures.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: DonaldD on May 07, 2020, 08:45:50 AM
Interestingly, New York City is now trending downwards in newly reported cases per day, whereas the rest of the country is trending upwards: The New York Times (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/05/us/coronavirus-deaths-cases-united-states.html). Obviously, there are pockets in the country also trending downwards, and others trending upwards.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on May 07, 2020, 10:05:56 AM
A further observation about vaccines and immunity.  Because the disease is so new, there is no established immunity lifetime for COVID-19 (SARS-CoV-2). The common cold caused by a coronavirus (HCV-229) has an immunity lifetime of about 6 months, SARS (SARS-CoV) 24 months and MERS (MERS-CoV) 34 months.  If no vaccine is generally available in the time period corresponding to COVID-19's immunity lifetime, people who got sick from it and recovered will be just as vulnerable as they were when the virus first appeared 4-6 months ago.

In other words, discussion about aiming to get everybody immune to the virus in order to promulgate public political or economic policy is premature and should not be used for that purpose.  This remains a public health crisis, and should not be dealt with as a political one.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Seriati on May 08, 2020, 12:20:06 PM
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The point of my approach is to move that 81% of the population as fast as possible through the infection with the minimum amount of deaths.  Effectively, if we could isolate the elderly and high risk completely, for whom the death rate is over 10%, and let everyone for whom the death rate is say 0.05% or lower out of containment to mingle, then the death rate of infections wouldn't end up being the blended 0.66% but instead something much much lower.  By doing that we can keep the hospitals from being overwhelmed while achieving the maximum rate of getting herd coverage.  Once we get herd coverage that will in fact lower the total deaths.  We will ultimately have suppressed the death totals because we'll never pay the 0.66% rate.  The vulnerable wont be exposed to an 81% penetration at all which means the blended average will be much lower and the total deaths much lower.

I would call your approach faux modeling, since you only have assumptions, but no data or methodology.  In other words, you can assert this simple, straightforward and safe path to the end of the pandemic without fear of contradiction, since there is nothing to contradict.  If you want this to be more credible, lay out the specifics for how to isolate "the elderly and high risk completely", where the number 0.66% comes from, likewise for 81%.  I call what you propose the "kill you now, kill me later" plan.

The 81% and  0.66% both come from the study to which DonaldD links, so not my data or assumptions at all.  But I was happy to work with them given the study was being cited somehow as a response to what I said.

After that, it's been widely reported that the death rate is directly linked to age, and that assumption was included in the study as well, and to the prevalence of certain existing conditions.  It's not a mystery who is in the high risk population or really what the death rate is in those populations (subject of course to a lack of accurate recording and compilation of that data).  The infection rate is not well known, and data to determine it precisely doesn't exist, though I wouldn't be surprised if epidemiologists couldn't make a reasonable approximation.

Based on the above, none of which is anything I made up, I suggested what seems to be one of only 2 possible answers (which again, was also the conclusion of the authors of the study).  The first, which was what the authors originally proposed was isolation to the point of driving the rate of infection below 1, and maintaining that isolation until the disease dies out.  You could read the assumptions they made on how they modelled the different scenarios yourself, but I'll save you some effort they both over and under assumed things, which was totally reasonable for a project from 2 months back.  Unless I misread the current US lock-down procedures are in many ways far more strict than those they assumed with higher rates of compliance.  It does not appear that we've driven the rate below 1 as a nation, though that may vary regionally.

The alternative approach was ALWAYs some form of hitting that 81% infection spread either on an "unmanaged" basis or on a mitigated basis.  Not doing anything would by definition - as described in that study - overwhelm hospital capacity very quickly, but also lead to a tall and narrow bell curve.  Using mitigation efforts that slow the rate of infection but that don't reduce it below zero, were always about keeping that hospital capacity available to mitigate the unnecessary deaths.  My original question and proposal was directly tied to what I understood to be the more current thinking (two months after the study) that we were not capable of driving the rate of infection below 1 - which I specifically asked others to confirm.  If R can not go below 1 consistent with restrictions we can impose or accept imposing, then extinguishment is literally off the table.

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Your model fails to account for unique real-world aspects of this virus.  For instance, some experts are expecting an even bigger wave of infections and deaths next fall and winter.  That won't happen if we reach herd immunity before then, but they essentially don't believe that we will achieve that saturation effect.  The virus is also mutating in ways suggesting altered strains may have a different infection mechanism.

I'm not sure how you get this take away.  Mitigation without extinguishment is what causes the result you are describing, slowing but not stopping the spread both lowers the peak of the infection bell curve but also makes it far wider.  That extra width is what creates the risk of reinfection and allows the virus to circulate for a long enough period of time to effectively mutate.

In fact, your later point, restated below, actually demonstrates that to be effective AT ALL herd immunity may need to be developed in a very short time window. 

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A further observation about vaccines and immunity.  Because the disease is so new, there is no established immunity lifetime for COVID-19 (SARS-CoV-2). The common cold caused by a coronavirus (HCV-229) has an immunity lifetime of about 6 months, SARS (SARS-CoV) 24 months and MERS (MERS-CoV) 34 months.  If no vaccine is generally available in the time period corresponding to COVID-19's immunity lifetime, people who got sick from it and recovered will be just as vulnerable as they were when the virus first appeared 4-6 months ago.


So again, quite literally, you've put forward additional data that supports my argument.  If we can't extinguish the virus, and no cure is over the horizon, we should be doing everything we reasonably can to maximize the rate of herd immunity to try and get inside the lowest limit of that potential viral immunity (which you describe as 6 months).

You do understand that the entire point of herd immunity is that the rate of infection will always drop below 1 because there are no longer enough potential hosts exposed to maintain the life of the virus.  Even the most virulent plague will die out if it has no new hosts.

A non-extinguishment lock-down that stretches the infection bell curve past the point where the initial recovered carriers have immunity will literally ensure that more people die in this pandemic than would have if we all got infected at once (pretending we have medical capacity - which is exactly how the study authors came up with their 2 million number, rather than the 3, 4, 5 million? more that would die if the hospitals become overwhelmed).   

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There are many other things to consider that your simplistic approach fails to account for.  OTOH, yours is a good story with a happy ending, exactly what everyone is hoping for.

Are there though?  I'm failing to see any basis upon which you can hang a disagreement with what I suggest. 

There are a ton of unknowns, and any approach could turn out wrong.  It's completely possible that if we mitigate for a year, even if it allows for extended mutations and reinfections that the treatment options will be to the point where while we can't prevent infection we can largely eliminate it as a serious infection.  Or maybe we won't be there.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: DonaldD on May 09, 2020, 10:51:52 AM
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She's a wonderful young woman, Katie, she tested very good for a long period of time, and then all of the sudden today she tested positive. She hasn't come into contact with me. She's spent some time with the vice president. This is why the whole concept of tests aren't necessarily great. The tests are perfect, but something can happen between a test where it's good and then something happens and all of the sudden. She was tested very recently and tested negative, and then today I guess for some reason she tested positive.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on May 09, 2020, 11:51:28 AM
I think his concern is that he sees a connection between being tested and being infected.  I won't blame the test at this point, but it certainly sounds there might at a minimum be some sort of quantum connection.  Has Trump been studying Schrödinger?
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDeamon on May 09, 2020, 12:34:30 PM
I think his concern is that he sees a connection between being tested and being infected.  I won't blame the test at this point, but it certainly sounds there might at a minimum be some sort of quantum connection.  Has Trump been studying Schrödinger?

His method of speech is annoying, but I think you'd find the point he was trying to make is that Covid19 testing is great and all, but your (negative) test results are only as good as the last person you came in contact with.

His press Secretary handled it fairly well in her response to the question about testing everybody in the US. That it wouldn't simply be a test them once and be done with it thing. It would need to be done again, and again, and again.

What she also didn't address is that at present testing capacities, it would probably take a significant portion of a year to test everyone in the country once.

We can even "math it out."

There are 525,600 minutes in a year according to Google.

So the "5 minute test" (which is only 5 minutes for a positive result, but can take up to 15 for a negative one) could be performed up to 105,120 times per year if each test completed in 5 minutes.

There are over 330 million people in the USA. Which means we'd need ‭3,140 testing machines running 24/7 for a year to process everybody once, if everyone came back positive within 5 minutes.

I have vague memories of their saying there were 9,000 of those units available. So in keeping with a 10% positive rate, you're really talking about the "average test" taking somewhere around 14 minutes. Which is 2.8 times longer than the initial calculation was for so you really need 8,790 testing machines running 24/7 to test 330 Americans in a year just once.

Good news is you can double the number of testing machines and halve the time, and each doubling would subsequently halve the time again, and so on and so forth, but that assumes your testing reagent supply can keep up. Those testing machines also aren't the only game in town for getting results, so there is additional capacity to be found, even if it isn't quite so fast.

But you're probably being overly optimistic if you believe we have the logistical capacity to test every American for Covid-19 within a 3 month time frame, never mind daily over the course of a couple weeks which is what would be needed in order to achieve (theoretical) eradication. I say theoretical as you still have people entering the country by various means, some capable of being controlled, others not(Border security anyone?). Which provides the means for the virus to be re-introduced into the country, at which point you get to go through the process all over again.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on May 09, 2020, 12:47:35 PM
Other than being a fun exercise to calculate all that, it isn't terribly persuasive or even meaningful.  Remember that everyone around Trump and Pence is being tested EVERY DAY.  That's how they found out the valet and the press secretary are infected.  What would have been the result if they weren't tested?  If the tests are not all that helpful, why do they bother?  The answer, as they say, is plain as day.

We need to ramp up testing by orders of magnitude, but I won't amuse myself by trying to calculate out how many tests are needed and how often they should be given.  Other more informed medical and scientific experts are arguing for that.  But don't forget that Trump also said this about testing:

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“We can’t let our guard down. We’re going to see our case numbers go up if we do.”

Wait, my mistake, that was the director of the Hawaii Health Department.  Here's what Trump said:

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“In a way, by doing all of this testing, we make ourselves look bad.”

That's what he really meant, not that it's impractical.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: DonaldD on May 09, 2020, 03:02:32 PM
His method of speech is annoying, but I think you'd find the point he was trying to make is that Covid19 testing is great and all, but your (negative) test results are only as good as the last person you came in contact with.
Sure, you can take anybody's words, then ignore them in the entirety, then imbue the remaining void with any meaning you like. If that helps you sleep. I suppose there is something to the idea of having the country run by a version of Chance, the gardener; unfortunately, this version is crass and prone to illegal activities.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDrake on May 09, 2020, 03:19:38 PM
He's constantly taking data about the virus as a competition vs other countries. He didn't want to tally the cruise ship cases because it would make him look bad. He likes to boast that we're testing more than anybody, when a per capita treatment shows anything but.

As far as how many tests, I'm going to assume that if it were physically impossible to test at the rates suggested by doctors, the "openers" would be screaming about that.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: D.W. on May 09, 2020, 05:46:04 PM
Saying his speech is just annoying is quite generous.  To me it came across as one who doesn't even understand how infection works.  As if he's thinking, "Well damn, she's a bright girl and she always aces that test... I wonder what went wrong this time?"  It was another in a long line of statements where, were it anyone else, I'd ask, "Did he REALLY just say that?"

TheDrake, HE is being tested an awful lot, as are those around him.  To him, that means that "we" are doing great at testing.  :P
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: DonaldD on May 11, 2020, 11:45:13 AM
I’m just waiting for wmLambert to claim that Trump saved two million people from dying of COVID-19 (https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2020/05/09/full_interview_trump_talks_to_fox_friends_about_flynn_russia_probe_nixon_coronavirus__more.html)...
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We were the envy of the world and then they came in and they explained it, and they said, sir, you have to turn it off. We have to close the country. And I said, say it again. They said, sir, you have to close the country. Nobody ever heard of a thing like this but they were right because if I didn’t we would have lost two million, two and a half million, maybe more than that people, and we’ll be at 100,000, 110,000, higher -- the lower level of what was projected if we did the shutdown, but still you're talking about -- I say two Yankee stadiums of people.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Seriati on May 11, 2020, 12:15:25 PM
Other than being a fun exercise to calculate all that, it isn't terribly persuasive or even meaningful.  Remember that everyone around Trump and Pence is being tested EVERY DAY.  That's how they found out the valet and the press secretary are infected.  What would have been the result if they weren't tested?  If the tests are not all that helpful, why do they bother?  The answer, as they say, is plain as day.

If the answer is "plain as day" if you have a tiny little group of the uninfected and expend a very large amount of resources monitoring it.   Contact tracing works if you have an uninfected population and you can track the new entrants and everyone that they interact with. For a small group that's easy to do.  For a large group?  Not see easy.  I seem to recall that contact tracing was exactly the approach the CDC tried to run with in the early days of the virus, and that Trump talked about and that some people *cough* criticized him for on his claims about the low spread.

The problem is it's virtually impossible to manage this at the scale of a whole country with a disease that has such a high rate of assymptomatic carriers.  We could for example manage it for a critical factory and limit the spread at the factory (but not, for example, if the workers decided to get together for a BBQ picnic on their own).  But to manage it on even a city level?  Other than for the most isolated of cities, it's going to be impossible.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on May 11, 2020, 12:31:33 PM
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The problem is it's virtually impossible to manage this at the scale of a whole country with a disease that has such a high rate of assymptomatic (sic) carriers.

I'm confused (or maybe we both are).  Are you arguing that we can't test everybody every day?  Or that the only places we should be testing are where we know people are densely concentrated indoors without adequate protection?  Or that testing is a waste of time?  Or something different?
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Seriati on May 11, 2020, 02:45:05 PM
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The problem is it's virtually impossible to manage this at the scale of a whole country with a disease that has such a high rate of assymptomatic (sic) carriers.

I'm confused (or maybe we both are).  Are you arguing that we can't test everybody every day?

It's clear we can't.  Not now, not for some time, maybe not ever.

Quote
Or that the only places we should be testing are where we know people are densely concentrated indoors without adequate protection?  Or that testing is a waste of time?  Or something different?

Only that the idea of repeated testing and monitoring of people at all times that it would take to stop the spread of Coronavirus after it's already spread in a population this large isn't going to work.  You can test everyone in a limited group with tight access controls (which is exactly what the White House is).  But to test everyone in the whole population and every legal or illegal immigrant or tourist?  We've never even tried to do it before.  Flu tests are generally not carried out even on the ill, let alone on the healthy.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: ScottF on May 11, 2020, 03:28:06 PM
This has been my confusion around those who vehemently repeat "testing" as some kind of scalable solution. The only way this works at scale is if we invent a magical covid tester that works like a metal detector. People walk through, it beeps and blinks (positive!) or it doesn't (move along).

I could see something like that actually existing in 5-10 years but until then, just saying the words "more testing" over and over again is not persuasive.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: rightleft22 on May 11, 2020, 03:36:26 PM
Quote
Only that the idea of repeated testing and monitoring of people at all times that it would take to stop the spread of Coronavirus after it's already spread in a population this large isn't going to work.  You can test everyone in a limited group with tight access controls (which is exactly what the White House is).  But to test everyone in the whole population and every legal or illegal immigrant or tourist?  We've never even tried to do it before.  Flu tests are generally not carried out even on the ill, let alone on the healthy.

FYI I actually agree with much of your analysis but have a question on the notion your notion of testing having to be everyone to make a difference.
 
My understanding of the intention of testing with regards to the science of epidemiology isn't to test everyone but test enough people so that a city, state, country can determine the infection rate, track and prepare?
"According to the World Health Organization if more than 10% of the tests given are coming back positive then not enough testing is being done" Suggesting that in order to understand and get a handle on where the virus is and how its spreading X number of tests of required.

For example New Mexico completes 3,072 tests per day with 5.4% coming back positive. Being lower then 10% New Mexico is good to start reopening. While continuing the testing and monitoring the number the State has better information as to how to handle that opening and better deploy resources. (I suspect who and where you test is important factor as well)

This would not be the same intention as testing for the WhiteHouse where 0% infected is the requirement.

I think part of the communication problem is that where used to taking in data in 280 character chunks and drawing instant conclusions, where as the science of the numbers requires knowledge of statistics, probabilities and epidemiology.

The whole idea of probability is madding to the social media age, we demand certainty and simplicity.

 
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: rightleft22 on May 11, 2020, 03:42:30 PM
Quote
just saying the words "more testing" over and over again is not persuasive.

I agree you must add context to the testing. There is a mistaken notion that the purpose of testing requires everyone to be tested.
Testing isn't a cure, nor as Seriati points out can it keep you 'safe'.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on May 11, 2020, 04:36:27 PM
Seriati, is it fair to assume that you don't think you should be tested?  If not, is it also fair to assume that you don't think it's necessary for others you interact with to be tested?  Do you follow self-protection and social distancing guidelines?  Do you think they're necessary?
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: rightleft22 on May 11, 2020, 05:13:15 PM
Seriati, is it fair to assume that you don't think you should be tested?  If not, is it also fair to assume that you don't think it's necessary for others you interact with to be tested?  Do you follow self-protection and social distancing guidelines?  Do you think they're necessary?

I think you may be missing Seriati point. If your arguing that we can only open up only when everyone can be tested everyday, Seriati is correct that isn't going to happen.
100% clearance isn't actually the purpose of testing.

The purpose of the lock down, social distancing guidelines and hand washing etc was to create space. Those methods were never going to end the virus. (unless lock down ment 100% of the population stays isolated for 21 days the virus might, might, die away, but that's everyone including essential workers. )

In the space of the lock down hospitals were to gear up, PPE manufacturing scaled up, and a search for treatment options. Testing is the only way to track where the virus is and how it is moving so 100% testing is not required. As the numbers and movement of the virus is tracked the idea is to deploy resources as required in order to keep the hospitals from being overwhelmed.  When this information is known and understood we can start to open up in a intelligent manner. 

It would be great if we could stop anyone from getting infected but we missed that boat. The next best thing we can do is to insure that those that would survive with hospitalization have that opportunity while doing our best to protect the most vulnerable. Imagine what we could do if just some of the money the government is currently spending went to develop process and means to protect the vulnerable. Here testing could help but again it won't be 100%.

The reality is that a prolong lock-down isn't sustainable. If the lockdown goes on to long it will result in pain and suffering that in combination with covid19 could be...

Testing has many roles to play and how it is deployed will depend on the data that is the initial intention of testing as it has to do with epidemiology. Its important to remember that epidemiology is more about controlling then cure

   
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on May 11, 2020, 05:40:39 PM
No one is arguing that everyone has to be tested before anybody can open up.  That's a strawman argument meant, I presume, to deprecate the need for testing.  Almost every Governor who has weighed in agrees that we need far more testing that is being done now, as well as additional measures to protect people and trace contacts from those who become sick.

It's not a big stretch in my mind to wonder if people who don't see a need for widespread testing think the whole pandemic thing is being overblown.  That's why I often ask people who seem to be heading in that direction whether they are protecting themselves.  And if they are, when would they try to get themselves or their loved ones tested.  In the absence of testing and tracing, the town I live in (and the state) have mandated strict stay-at-home guidelines.  The choice without testing is whether to ignore the infection and disease and go about your business, or protect yourself and your family from possible infection, hospitalization and death.

The patently hypocritical argument is to insist that widespread testing is not needed and still do everything to protect yourself, as for instance, Trump is doing.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: ScottF on May 11, 2020, 06:31:36 PM
Almost every Governor who has weighed in agrees that we need far more testing that is being done now, as well as additional measures to protect people and trace contacts from those who become sick.

I've seen/heard this as well. The problem is it's meaningless. What percentage of people should be tested? How often? You're agreeing that population-scale testing isn't realistic, so what is? 10%, 20%? By when?

I don't have those answers, but I'll go on record too: I think we need more testing and I don't care who knows it!

Using unknowables as parameters for next-steps is as meaningful as a fart in the wind.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDrake on May 11, 2020, 07:07:34 PM
Well, the targets are out there already. Harvard Global Health Institute suggests 900K tests per day currently (previously they had said 500k-600k). But these estimates depend on how many active cases are out there.

They also suggest that if you are seeing 10% or fewer positives, you are probably testing enough in that community. Currently nine states are meeting that requirement. These are designed to be minimums.

Looking at Texas (since I live there), currently at 61/100k, target is 94/100k. This isn't some unobtanium. The worst state is NJ, they would need 1100/100K or 1% of the population daily. The current mark? 77. So they would have to increase testing by over 10x. OR wait until their infection rates go down to make fewer tests viable.

state by state calculator and chart (https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/05/07/851610771/u-s-coronavirus-testing-still-falls-short-hows-your-state-doing)

Other proponents do have some pie in the sky ideas, like an NYU paper that said the US needs to test every resident every two weeks to stop the pandemic - but that's a different goal than maintaining R<=1.

Of course all that testing doesn't do you much good if you can't track and quarantine people who came in contact with those who tested positive.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDrake on May 11, 2020, 07:14:17 PM
I'll tack on one more requirement. Enough testing should be available so that people who are showing symptoms can ***** get one.

Quote
For the past two weeks, Nathan Tetreault of Lillian, Ala., has suffered through likely COVID-19 symptoms: dry cough, fever, waking up in the middle of the night struggling to breathe.

"I don't know if I have it. However, chances are pretty darn likely," Tetreault says.

Doctors wouldn't test him last week because he didn't meet the required criteria early on: He's not someone who's over 65 and showing symptoms, and he hasn't traveled outside the U.S. or come into contact with anyone he knows of who has tested positive.

"The scariest thing is not getting answers, not knowing what's gonna happen when you call the doctor and they're just like, 'Yeah, you're on your own,' " he says.

Tetreault is now feeling better. He's supposed to go back to his job at a supermarket. But he's worried he could be infectious. He says if he knew he was positive, he could ask for more time off.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDeamon on May 11, 2020, 09:12:38 PM
I'll tack on one more requirement. Enough testing should be available so that people who are showing symptoms can ***** get one.

The problem here is the symptom list is so large at this point it has ceased to have any real meaning. As I can point back to my post from the other day where in a sample size of nearly 10,000 Idahoans who believed they have had a Covid19 infection, less than 2% of them tested positive for the antibodies.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDrake on May 11, 2020, 09:16:30 PM
I'll tack on one more requirement. Enough testing should be available so that people who are showing symptoms can ***** get one.

The problem here is the symptom list is so large at this point it has ceased to have any real meaning. As I can point back to my post from the other day where in a sample size of nearly 10,000 Idahoans who believed they have had a Covid19 infection, less than 2% of them tested positive for the antibodies.

Fine, stick to the major ones. Like the guy in the anecdote who woke up having trouble breathing and running a fever. I'm not suggesting that necessarily everyone who has a cough should get tested - but if it is preventing them from going back to work or in reverse if they should not go back to work?
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDeamon on May 11, 2020, 09:22:45 PM
Fine, stick to the major ones. Like the guy in the anecdote who woke up having trouble breathing and running a fever. I'm not suggesting that necessarily everyone who has a cough should get tested - but if it is preventing them from going back to work or in reverse if they should not go back to work?

Some of that one should fall on the Employer, and keep in mind I also posted very early on into this that My Brother was sent home from work in Early March because he had a cough, he and his family later developed Covid19 like symptoms, but their symptoms were mild. So we're reasonably certain they've probably had it, but cannot be sure, as he was unable to be tested--because it was during March. But for him at the time, the instructions were "either get tested and verified as Covid19-negative (which he was never able to do), or come back in about 3 weeks--or a week after symptoms end, whichever is longer."

So I can appreciate how frustrating that can be for employees and employers alike. But the testing capacity simply doesn't exist for every employer to be capable of testing any employee they think might have a Covid19 infection. There are simply far too many people, and not enough capacity.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: ScottF on May 12, 2020, 01:01:23 AM
I'll tack on one more requirement. Enough testing should be available so that people who are showing symptoms can ***** get one.

The problem here is the symptom list is so large at this point it has ceased to have any real meaning. As I can point back to my post from the other day where in a sample size of nearly 10,000 Idahoans who believed they have had a Covid19 infection, less than 2% of them tested positive for the antibodies.

Fine, stick to the major ones. Like the guy in the anecdote who woke up having trouble breathing and running a fever. I'm not suggesting that necessarily everyone who has a cough should get tested - but if it is preventing them from going back to work or in reverse if they should not go back to work?

I think tests for symptomatic people (although to TheDeamon's point everyone who catches a cold is probably going to want a test) is fine.

But what about all the asymptomatic people? Would the plan be to make random testing mandatory? Kind of like a draft, where if you’re number is called you need to report to the clinic for testing?
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: ScottF on May 12, 2020, 01:13:18 AM
TheDrake I went to the link you provided. Maybe I’m missing something, but it seems incredibly naive.

“To make their state-by-state estimates, the Harvard Global Health Institute group started from a model of future case counts. It calculated how much testing would be needed for a state to test all infected people and any close contacts they may have exposed to the virus. (The simulation estimates testing 10 contacts on average.)

"Testing is outbreak control 101, because what testing lets you do is figure out who's infected and who's not," Jha says. "And that lets you separate out the infected people from the noninfected people and bring the disease under control."

This approach is how communities can prevent outbreaks from flaring up. First, test all symptomatic people, then reach out to their close contacts and test them, and finally ask those who are infected or exposed to isolate themselves.

Test all asymptomatic people, then their close contacts? Wait what?.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: ScottF on May 12, 2020, 01:29:05 AM
The worst state is NJ, they would need 1100/100K or 1% of the population daily. The current mark? 77. So they would have to increase testing by over 10x. OR wait until their infection rates go down to make fewer tests viable.

And yet they’re shutting down testing centers in NJ. Not because lack of test kits - there’s plenty of them - but because nobody is showing up. They literally can’t give them away.

http://newjersey.news12.com/story/42113331/ocean-county-coronavirus-testing-center-scales-back-hours-due-to-lack-of-people-getting-tested#.XroQFOVzucI.twitter
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDeamon on May 12, 2020, 01:29:20 AM
This approach is how communities can prevent outbreaks from flaring up. First, test all symptomatic people, then reach out to their close contacts and test them, and finally ask those who are infected or exposed to isolate themselves.

Test all asymptomatic people, then their close contacts? Wait what?.

There is no "A" in front of their use of the word, symptomatic, not asymptomatic.

Of course, the only way you're going to find the asymptomatic person is by testing them, but "hopefully" they'll be a known contact of someone who was symptomatic. But there is guarantee of that being that case, and heaven forbid you have a case of asymptomatic spread to another asymptomatic person who then spreads it, worse if it manages to jump a few more times that way. Which is still back to "hope someone in the chain shows symptoms and can get tested, which will lead to ferreting out the rest of them"
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: ScottF on May 12, 2020, 01:34:17 AM
Crap - reading fail on my part, thanks. Meanwhile, more testing sites closing. Lots of tests available, no demand.

https://week.com/2020/05/11/mclean-county-covid-19-testing-site-to-close-this-week-due-to-shrinking-demand/
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: cherrypoptart on May 12, 2020, 02:47:38 AM
They still have conditions on who qualifies to get tested. If they have so much extra testing capacity and are closing sites due to limited demand they should consider opening the testing up to anyone who wants one and then also let them be tested anonymously. I mean they are in a car so you could run the plates to find out who they are but these are extra tests on people who now don't qualify to be tested at all so if any of them happen to pop positive that is just bonus information. Why anonymously? That may be the only way some people will want to do it. At least you'll now there is a case and you can give them a handout on voluntary quarantining and mask wearing. But this would be someone who was just walking around maybe spreading it anyway so at least they'll know and hopefully will do the right thing.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on May 12, 2020, 06:07:08 AM
The worst state is NJ, they would need 1100/100K or 1% of the population daily. The current mark? 77. So they would have to increase testing by over 10x. OR wait until their infection rates go down to make fewer tests viable.

And yet they’re shutting down testing centers in NJ. Not because lack of test kits - there’s plenty of them - but because nobody is showing up. They literally can’t give them away.

http://newjersey.news12.com/story/42113331/ocean-county-coronavirus-testing-center-scales-back-hours-due-to-lack-of-people-getting-tested#.XroQFOVzucI.twitter

NJ only allows tests of people who are symptomatic or suspected due to comorbidities.  If the state allowed anyone to be tested the positive test result rate would drop significantly.

Quote
Statewide, the number of people who tested positive for COVID-19 has reached 137,085. In the meantime, New Jersey has not allowed certain testing areas to swab asymptomatic individuals who want to rule out they could be contagious. It is unknown if the change has impacted the rate of positives to negatives. At this time, the positive results equate to 38.7% of the total number of tests.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDrake on May 12, 2020, 08:54:16 AM
Crap - reading fail on my part, thanks. Meanwhile, more testing sites closing. Lots of tests available, no demand.

https://week.com/2020/05/11/mclean-county-covid-19-testing-site-to-close-this-week-due-to-shrinking-demand/

Wonder why it's closing.

In McLean County, people can be tested if they are a first responder, a medical professional, someone at high risk of contracting the virus, or have been in contact with a confirmed positive COVID-19 case.

So you can apparently have a cough, a fever, and a wheeze and not qualify? Wouldn't want to do more testing, might make their numbers look bad.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: oldbrian on May 12, 2020, 09:06:48 AM
And yet, just last night at the press conference the president guarunteed that if you want a test, you can get a test.

The PR people and doctors tried to walk that back, but he then repeated at the end that anybody can get tested if they want to, because we have all of this extra capacity going to waste.

"If you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor."   -  conservatives launched a ****storm
"If you want to get tested, you can get tested."        -  conservatives defend and 'explain what he really meant'

 
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Aris Katsaris on May 12, 2020, 09:34:45 AM
Are these tests free, or do you have to pay for them, and if so how much?
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on May 12, 2020, 09:47:25 AM
Are these tests free, or do you have to pay for them, and if so how much?

In nearly all cases (or maybe all) the test is fully covered by insurance or the government.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: ScottF on May 12, 2020, 10:02:10 AM
Crap - reading fail on my part, thanks. Meanwhile, more testing sites closing. Lots of tests available, no demand.

https://week.com/2020/05/11/mclean-county-covid-19-testing-site-to-close-this-week-due-to-shrinking-demand/

Wonder why it's closing.

In McLean County, people can be tested if they are a first responder, a medical professional, someone at high risk of contracting the virus, or have been in contact with a confirmed positive COVID-19 case.

So you can apparently have a cough, a fever, and a wheeze and not qualify? Wouldn't want to do more testing, might make their numbers look bad.

Nope, they changed  the criteria over a month ago to anyone who thinks they have symptoms, aka anyone. Still nobody is showing.

https://week.com/2020/04/09/mclean-county-covid-19-testing-site-loosens-testing-restrictions/
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDrake on May 12, 2020, 10:08:43 AM
Well my quote comes from your original article, may 11. Your second link is from April 9. I don't really care to dig in to the intricasies of McLean county beyond that.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: ScottF on May 12, 2020, 10:50:35 AM
Well my quote comes from your original article, may 11. Your second link is from April 9. I don't really care to dig in to the intricasies of McLean county beyond that.

Not expecting you to. Yeah the original link incorrectly says that only certain people can get tested, turns out that's false.

There's a really weird phenomenon going on, I think almost entirely a result of social media. People seem to want to propagate news/issues that fit the fear narrative, even when the real world conspires against it. I remember talking to a colleague about how, while Seattle had a hotspot that was almost entirely within a single nursing home, it looked like in general the state was relatively mild re: covid outbreaks and deaths. Her reply was "oh no, just you wait. I have a friend who's in the medical field - and it's going to get waaay worse." That was mid-March. I think there are people who go in that direction because they think they're helping everyone "stays vigilant", but most are motivated by something else. Not entirely sure what.

Case in point and still related to testing availability.  A guy on twitter names Sam Ghail, MD tweets out this morning:

"Hi, ER Doc here.

We STILL do NOT have enough COVID tests for our symptomatic patients let alone to test everyone who wants one."

It's retweeted 13.5K times and has 45K likes. Turns out he's in Kentucky, which has plenty of testing capacity including drive-up testing sites at Krogers with little to no wait. They still aren't up to snuff according to the volume testing arguably needed for reopening, but the idea that symptomatic people can't get tested is bullsh*t.

Most of the thousands of his replies are either "thanks for keeping us informed doc!" or some kind of slam on Trump because sick people can't get tested. We're a weird, weird, species.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on May 12, 2020, 11:14:10 AM
Luckily nobody on this forum does that.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: ScottF on May 12, 2020, 11:19:17 AM
The issue isn't weird psychological motivations, we had those since our knuckles were still dragging. The problem is now we can instantly manifest and amplify those thoughts across the world. Very dangerous.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on May 12, 2020, 11:26:33 AM
Does citing a CDC study about the lack of efficacy of masks and the flu and your view that masks aren't worth using against coronavirus fit the narrative?
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: ScottF on May 12, 2020, 11:34:43 AM
Does citing a CDC study about the lack of efficacy of masks and the flu and your view that masks aren't worth using against coronavirus fit the narrative?

Which narrative?
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Kasandra on May 12, 2020, 11:48:04 AM
Does citing a CDC study about the lack of efficacy of masks and the flu and your view that masks aren't worth using against coronavirus fit the narrative?

Which narrative?

Quote
There's a really weird phenomenon going on, I think almost entirely a result of social media. People seem to want to propagate news/issues that fit the fear narrative, even when the real world conspires against it.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: ScottF on May 12, 2020, 11:58:35 AM
No, not necessarily. I'm not sure what potential motivation could be behind the CDC article if any. If anything it seems counter to everything they've said post-march and I'm kind of surprised they released it. I'm also looking at a bunch of other papers that seem to contradict what that CDC article says.

It looks like there's a lot of research indicating that masks can stop some of the airborne transport (and hence viral load within it). And that's for the flu. That seems like common sense, but also makes the article I quotes even more strange in that they didn't actually impact overall the flu infection rate. The studies are different, most look purely at particle movement and mechanical blockage but not necessarily macro efficacy re: transmission. I'm going to keep looking.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: rightleft22 on May 12, 2020, 12:01:47 PM
If the masks are used correctly and your concerned your asymptomatic your probably keeping people around you safe. Sick or not sick your also probably making people around you feel less anxious which may be reason enough to put one on.

My observations are that most people aren't using masks correctly as they are constantly touching them, pulling them down and then putting them back on. If they do come into contact with a virus a mask might make them more vulnerable - less alert.  So Its not surprise that wearing masks has little influence on infection.

And don't get me started on gloves.

Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDrake on May 12, 2020, 12:44:18 PM
Well my quote comes from your original article, may 11. Your second link is from April 9. I don't really care to dig in to the intricasies of McLean county beyond that.

Not expecting you to. Yeah the original link incorrectly says that only certain people can get tested, turns out that's false.

There's a really weird phenomenon going on, I think almost entirely a result of social media. People seem to want to propagate news/issues that fit the fear narrative, even when the real world conspires against it. I remember talking to a colleague about how, while Seattle had a hotspot that was almost entirely within a single nursing home, it looked like in general the state was relatively mild re: covid outbreaks and deaths. Her reply was "oh no, just you wait. I have a friend who's in the medical field - and it's going to get waaay worse." That was mid-March. I think there are people who go in that direction because they think they're helping everyone "stays vigilant", but most are motivated by something else. Not entirely sure what.

Case in point and still related to testing availability.  A guy on twitter names Sam Ghail, MD tweets out this morning:

"Hi, ER Doc here.

We STILL do NOT have enough COVID tests for our symptomatic patients let alone to test everyone who wants one."

It's retweeted 13.5K times and has 45K likes. Turns out he's in Kentucky, which has plenty of testing capacity including drive-up testing sites at Krogers with little to no wait. They still aren't up to snuff according to the volume testing arguably needed for reopening, but the idea that symptomatic people can't get tested is bullsh*t.

What is it that you assume? That the doctor is deliberately lying for political reasons? So are all the other individuals and medical professionals who claim they have symptoms and can't get tested? Including anecdotes already listed here?

Shoes come in pairs. If you are seeing an agenda to increase concern, I see an agenda to decrease concern. Every piece of news that suggests that the virus just isn't that bad seems to get thrown around with equal abandon. Each "camp" is going to say that they are "telling it how it is" and that the other people are blind to what's going on.

If I post that Germany is now at R=1.1, am I fear mongering? Promoting a narrative? Well, I guess I am. My narrative is "watch out", just like I would say to someone swimming a little too far off shore. You don't have to get out of the water, but maybe you need to swim back in a little closer.

1.1 sounds pretty close to 1.0, but what it really means is nearly quadrupling cases in two weeks time. But there I go fear mongering again.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: ScottF on May 12, 2020, 01:44:50 PM
What is it that you assume? That the doctor is deliberately lying for political reasons?

It's unclear. There are amazing people sharing valuable information and there are also mentally ill people providing emotionally charged disinformation.

Like the early video of a nurse, distraught, crying and claiming that America was doomed - it was viewed over 8 million times and promoted by CBS before it was discovered it was she was mentally ill and her "story" was nonsense.

Or the chairman of the NYC health committee posting as fact that they were going to start digging mass body graves in Central Park, even going to lengths to describe how many caskets would be in a row. Obviously it never happened but apparently he thought it was directionally the right message to make sure everyone keeps the "appropriate" level of concern.

I'm not saying all negative posts are the result of some kind underlying psychosis, just that I believe that phenomenon exists.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: rightleft22 on May 12, 2020, 02:13:16 PM
Fear more often then not is False Evidence Appearing Real and it takes a great deal of self awareness and discernment skills to deal with all the information that comes at us.

There is a psychosis of fear to much of the way information is spread. We are programmed to pay attention to danger and in the moment react to a tiger jumping out at us in the same way as a virus jumping out at us. Reacting to the trigger in the moment is a good survival ability. Reacting to a virus in the same way we react to a tiger jumping out at us not so helpful. Dealing with a virus requires a response not a reaction. One might train for both events so that ones response happens at the spread of a reaction but the training to face a tiger is going to be very different then the training to face a virus.

For the majority of people who do not train so the body/mind reacts to the threat of the tiger and virus in the same way.

Other then trolls most people that re-posting information that scares aren't doing to reinforce a narrative although current partisan poultices will determine which echo chambers the information originate from. Why making the virus a partisan political issue is a disaster, the virus is a health issue and should be addressed that way. Instead we move back to the false choices of All or nothing - Lock it down forever or Let it fly. There is of course allot of options between All and Nothing but it requires us to take a step back and stop blindly reacting. 
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: TheDrake on May 12, 2020, 02:22:54 PM
I hope I've been relatively even in my advocacy. I clearly know we can't lock down forever. I also know we don't need anybody piling into a soccer stadium any time soon. Or a beach. You can live without swimming and cheering. Some rules I think are silly and inconsistent - like not allowing hair salons to open even if customers have appointed times only, full disinfecting of areas between customers, and avoiding any adjacent stations.

Utah opened up their bars and demanded strict distancing rules, including no seat changes and limited capacity. Within minutes of opening, social media had pictures of people piling all over each other. This is not Norway, clearly. So to the extent that I advocate closer to the "nothing" side, its that I have no confidence in people to avoid the "let it fly" scenario in practice.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: DonaldD on May 19, 2020, 11:34:16 AM
Fox News: Neil Cavuto (https://www.foxnews.com/media/neil-cavuto-reacts-trump-taking-hydroxychloroquine-coronavirus)
Quote
President Trump: I’m taking it – hydroxychloroquine. I think it's good. I've heard a lot good stories. And if it's not good, I'll tell you right [now], I'm not going to get hurt by it.

Quote
Cavuto: The president has insisted that [hydroxychloroquine] has enormous benefits for patients either trying to prevent or [who] already have COVID-19. The fact of the matter is, though, when the president said, 'What have you got to lose?' In a number of studies [of] those certainly vulnerable, the population have one thing to lose, their lives.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Fenring on May 19, 2020, 11:41:00 AM
DonalD,

Quote
In a number of studies [of] those certainly vulnerable, the population have one thing to lose, their lives.

Is that quote supposed to mean that taking hydrochloroquine could kill you? Because that's what your arrangement of quotes makes it sound like.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: DonaldD on May 19, 2020, 11:43:14 AM
If you don't trust the quote, you could listen to the video (at the link) or read the transcript (at the link).

Just click on the hyperlink - it should open a new tab on your browser.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: yossarian22c on May 19, 2020, 11:46:12 AM
DonalD,

Quote
In a number of studies [of] those certainly vulnerable, the population have one thing to lose, their lives.

Is that quote supposed to mean that taking hydrochloroquine could kill you? Because that's what your arrangement of quotes makes it sound like.

The NIH and FDA halted studies of hydrochloroquine because of increased risk of having a heart attack while showing no efficacy in treating covid 19. So while the increased risk is small, its like betting where there is no outcome in which you win. You take a risk, but there is no corresponding upside. If the white house doctor actually prescribed this for him he's a piss poor doctor and just another Trump "yes" man.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: wmLambert on May 19, 2020, 11:46:57 AM
The one thing that Trump has always said, is that one must work with one's doctor to evaluate whether to use it or not. His medical experts repeat the same point.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: ScottF on May 19, 2020, 11:51:48 AM
Per the CDC website:

"Hydroxychloroquine can be prescribed to adults and children of all ages. It can also be safely taken by pregnant women and nursing mothers. "

This is in the context of Malaria treatment but is referring to prophylactic use which would indicate they feel it's safe for virtually anyone to take.

I'm not a doctor but, COVID-19 efficacy aside, I think I'll assume the CDC guidance is accurate.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: ScottF on May 19, 2020, 11:55:37 AM
It shouldn't really need to be said, but all medications carry potentially negative side effects, so the definition of a "safe" medication always has that asterisk.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: Crunch on May 19, 2020, 11:56:11 AM
DonalD,

Quote
In a number of studies [of] those certainly vulnerable, the population have one thing to lose, their lives.

Is that quote supposed to mean that taking hydrochloroquine could kill you? Because that's what your arrangement of quotes makes it sound like.

The NIH and FDA halted studies of hydrochloroquine because of increased risk of having a heart attack while showing no efficacy in treating covid 19. So while the increased risk is small, its like betting where there is no outcome in which you win. You take a risk, but there is no corresponding upside. If the white house doctor actually prescribed this for him he's a piss poor doctor and just another Trump "yes" man.

People taking HCQ over the last 70 years for a variety of issues must be shocked at how close to death they are!

Quote
In a letter to Gov. Doug Ducey of Arizona, the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons (AAPS) presents a frequently updated table of studies that report results of treating COVID-19 with the anti-malaria drugs chloroquine (CQ) and hydroxychloroquine (HCQ, Plaquenil®).

To date, the total number of reported patients treated with HCQ, with or without zinc and the widely used antibiotic azithromycin, is 2,333, writes AAPS, in observational data from China, France, South Korea, Algeria, and the U.S. Of these, 2,137 or 91.6 percent improved clinically. There were 63 deaths, all but 11 in a single retrospective report from the Veterans Administration where the patients were severely ill.

The antiviral properties of these drugs have been studied since 2003. Particularly when combined with zinc, they hinder viral entry into cells and inhibit replication. They may also prevent overreaction by the immune system, which causes the cytokine storm responsible for much of the damage in severe cases, explains AAPS. HCQ is often very helpful in treating autoimmune diseases such as lupus and rheumatoid arthritis.

Additional benefits shown in some studies, AAPS states, is to decrease the number of days when a patient is contagious, reduce the need for ventilators, and shorten the time to clinical recovery.

Peer-reviewed studies published from January through April 20, 2020, provide clear and convincing evidence that HCQ may be beneficial in COVID-19, especially when used early, states AAPS.

So, the science is only valid when it agrees with you conclusion. Right? The AAPS, 100% made up of Trump "yes men", that about it?

Dude, is orange man so bad you're willing to dismiss a potential treatment and let people die? Christ, some of you guys are really off your rockers on this.

HCQ with Zinc might work, there's conflicting evidence so we can't be sure. One thing we can be sure of is, when properly prescribed and used, it's safe. We have literally 7+ decades of data to show this. Pretending otherwise is the worst sort of fear-mongering. You ought to be ashamed of it.

Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: DonaldD on May 19, 2020, 12:00:29 PM
From Trump's letter threatening permanent US withdrawal from the WHO:
Quote
The World Health Organization consistently ignored credible reports of the virus spreading in Wuhan in early December 2019 or even earlier, including reports from the Lancet medical journal
Richard Horton, The Lancet's editor-in-chief:
Quote
Dear President Trump — You cite The Lancet in your attack on WHO. Please let me correct the record. The Lancet did not publish any report in early December, 2019, about a virus spreading in Wuhan.

The first reports we published were from Chinese scientists on Jan 24, 2020.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: ScottF on May 19, 2020, 12:03:24 PM
I'm currently taking vitamin D3 supplements because of strong data linking COVID-19 symptom severity with vitamin D deficiencies. Turns out about 70% of the US population is vitamin D deficient anyway, so feels like a win-win for me. But wait...

Possible side effects of vitamin D include irregular heartbeat and heart attack, kidney stones (which could lead to critical health issues), bone pain, and other bad outcomes. In light of how we're now viewing upside vs downside, I may need to reconsider whether taking these supplements is prudent.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: yossarian22c on May 19, 2020, 12:14:15 PM
So, the science is only valid when it agrees with you conclusion. Right? The AAPS, 100% made up of Trump "yes men", that about it?

Dude, is orange man so bad you're willing to dismiss a potential treatment and let people die? Christ, some of you guys are really off your rockers on this.

HCQ with Zinc might work, there's conflicting evidence so we can't be sure. One thing we can be sure of is, when properly prescribed and used, it's safe. We have literally 7+ decades of data to show this. Pretending otherwise is the worst sort of fear-mongering. You ought to be ashamed of it.

April 28th is almost a month ago and before the NIH and FDA halted their studies because of increased heart attack risk while showing no treatment benefits.

Also the AAPS despite its name is mostly a political organization.

From wikipedia:
Quote
The Association of American Physicians and Surgeons (AAPS) is a politically conservative non-profit association founded in 1943. It is opposed to the Affordable Care Act and other forms of universal health insurance. The group was reported to have about 4,000 members in 2005, and 5,000 in 2014. The executive director is Jane Orient, an internist and a member of the Oregon Institute of Science and Medicine. AAPS also publishes the Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons (formerly known as the Medical Sentinel).

The association is generally recognized as politically conservative or ultra-conservative, and its publication advocates a range of scientifically discredited hypotheses, including the belief that HIV does not cause AIDS, that being gay reduces life expectancy, that there is a link between abortion and breast cancer, and that there is a causal relationship between vaccines and autism.

I'm not off my rocker, I never opposed scientific studies of any of the drugs. But continuing to push malaria drugs after the FDA found no benefit and increased risk of heart attack is crazy. At this point we can be about as sure as we can be that HCQ doesn't produce a measurable improvement in outcomes for covid-19 patients. Remdisaver did get support by showing a 30% reduced hospitalization time and a 3% reduction in death. HCQ couldn't even show any level of efficacy and a measurable increase in cardiac arrests in patients.
Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: yossarian22c on May 19, 2020, 12:24:08 PM
I'm currently taking vitamin D3 supplements because of strong data linking COVID-19 symptom severity with vitamin D deficiencies. Turns out about 70% of the US population is vitamin D deficient anyway, so feels like a win-win for me. But wait...

Possible side effects of vitamin D include irregular heartbeat and heart attack, kidney stones (which could lead to critical health issues), bone pain, and other bad outcomes. In light of how we're now viewing upside vs downside, I may need to reconsider whether taking these supplements is prudent.

There is research recommending it. So I would agree it seems prudent, I take a vitamin d supplement for other reasons already. I try to avoid the mega-doses, anything much over the recommended daily intake, as those are most likely to have the side effects.

When the FDA recommends people not take vitamin d because its side effects outweigh any benefits then maybe we should reevaluate. Why is this it controversial position to follow the FDA recommendations on a medication following a study of 2 to 3 thousand people?

Title: Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
Post by: ScottF on May 19, 2020, 12:29:40 PM
Why is this it controversial position to follow the FDA recommendations on a medication following a study of 2 to 3 thousand people?

It’s not controversial at all. Just like taking a drug who's efficacy is still being debated but has well documented low risk shouldn’t be controversial either.

I know you feel HCQ's efficacy ship has sailed but I’m not certain it has. There is too much conflicting data and variations in the current study methods to be conclusive yet. <