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General Category => General Comments => Topic started by: Kasandra on June 03, 2020, 09:44:52 PM

Title: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: Kasandra on June 03, 2020, 09:44:52 PM
Jim Mattis:

Quote
In Union There Is Strength

I have watched this week’s unfolding events, angry and appalled.
The words “Equal Justice Under Law” are carved in the pediment of
the United States Supreme Court. This is precisely what protesters are
rightly demanding. It is a wholesome and unifying demand—one that
all of us should be able to get behind. We must not be distracted by a
small number of lawbreakers. The protests are defined by tens of
thousands of people of conscience who are insisting that we live up to
our values—our values as people and our values as a nation.
When I joined the military, some 50 years ago, I swore an oath to
support and defend the Constitution. Never did I dream that troops
taking that same oath would be ordered under any circumstance to
violate the Constitutional rights of their fellow citizens—much less to
provide a bizarre photo op for the elected commander-in-chief, with
military leadership standing alongside.

We must reject any thinking of our cities as a “battlespace” that
our uniformed military is called upon to “dominate.” At home, we
should use our military only when requested to do so, on very rare
occasions, by state governors. Militarizing our response, as we
witnessed in Washington, D.C., sets up a conflict—a false conflict—
between the military and civilian society. It erodes the moral ground
that ensures a trusted bond between men and women in uniform and
the society they are sworn to protect, and of which they themselves are
a part. Keeping public order rests with civilian state and local leaders
who best understand their communities and are answerable to them.
James Madison wrote in Federalist 14 that “America united with
a handful of troops, or without a single soldier, exhibits a more
forbidding posture to foreign ambition than America disunited, with a
hundred thousand veterans ready for combat.” We do not need to
militarize our response to protests. We need to unite around a common
purpose. And it starts by guaranteeing that all of us are equal before
the law.

Instructions given by the military departments to our troops
before the Normandy invasion reminded soldiers that “The Nazi
slogan for destroying us…was ‘Divide and Conquer.’ Our American
answer is ‘In Union there is Strength.’” We must summon that unity to
surmount this crisis—confident that we are better than our politics.
Donald Trump is the first president in my lifetime who does not
try to unite the American people—does not even pretend to try.
Instead he tries to divide us. We are witnessing the consequences of
three years of this deliberate effort. We are witnessing the
consequences of three years without mature leadership. We can unite
without him, drawing on the strengths inherent in our civil society.
This will not be easy, as the past few days have shown, but we owe it
to our fellow citizens; to past generations that bled to defend our
promise; and to our children.

We can come through this trying time stronger, and with a
renewed sense of purpose and respect for one another. The pandemic
has shown us that it is not only our troops who are willing to offer the
ultimate sacrifice for the safety of the community. Americans in
hospitals, grocery stores, post offices, and elsewhere have put their
lives on the line in order to serve their fellow citizens and their
country. We know that we are better than the abuse of executive
authority that we witnessed in Lafayette Square. We must reject and
hold accountable those in office who would make a mockery of our
Constitution. At the same time, we must remember Lincoln’s “better
angels,” and listen to them, as we work to unite.

Only by adopting a new path—which means, in truth, returning to
the original path of our founding ideals—will we again be a country
admired and respected at home and abroad.

James Mattis
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: TheDeamon on June 03, 2020, 11:30:19 PM
Sadly, the Democrats aren't a viable alternative. I'll take Trump over a Democrat controlled Federal Government.

Trump is disturbing, but the Dems are even worse in a lot more ways.

Sure the Dems aren't as overtly disturbing. But it isn't how they talk that's the problem. It's what they do when they're not talking.

Trump's biggest problem is he wants to seem like he's in the middle of everything.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: cherrypoptart on June 04, 2020, 12:17:27 AM
Mattis makes some good points but what happens when the police abandon their posts and the governors don't do anything either and just let chaos and anarchy rule while the cities burn? I wouldn't want to see our military attacking civilians but when the alternative is what we've seen with police stations themselves getting burned out and nothing being done about it then somebody has got to do something. If the local cops won't stop it, the mayors won't stop it, and the governors won't stop it then there is only one person left.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: Kasandra on June 04, 2020, 03:38:04 AM
Quote
Trump's biggest problem is he wants to seem like he's in the middle of everything.

It says a lot about each of us in how we respond to Mattis's and others comments.  That's his biggest problem?
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: Kasandra on June 04, 2020, 09:28:47 AM
Mattis makes some good points but what happens when the police abandon their posts and the governors don't do anything either and just let chaos and anarchy rule while the cities burn? I wouldn't want to see our military attacking civilians but when the alternative is what we've seen with police stations themselves getting burned out and nothing being done about it then somebody has got to do something. If the local cops won't stop it, the mayors won't stop it, and the governors won't stop it then there is only one person left.

It may sound good in theory, but the problem with that argument is that no retired or active military officer has spoken up to support Trump's suggestion of sending in the military.  Besides Mattis, senior officers who have already objected include Sec. Def. Mark Esper, Adm. Mike Mullen, Gen. Martin Dempsey, Gen. Michael Hayden, Gen. Tony Thomas, Gen. Wesley Clark, Gen. David Goldfein, Air Force chief master sergeant Kaleth Wright and Lt. Gen. Jay Silveria.   More can be expected to speak out.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: DonaldD on June 04, 2020, 10:08:30 AM
To play devil's advocate: would any active military person speak up for such a policy, even if they agreed with it?  It could be spun to look like that military person approves of or even encourages using the military against civilians, as opposed to being "reluctant but forced".
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: TheDeamon on June 04, 2020, 10:24:15 AM
To play devil's advocate: would any active military person speak up for such a policy, even if they agreed with it?  It could be spun to look like that military person approves of or even encourages using the military against civilians, as opposed to being "reluctant but forced".

Pretty much, the military leadership speaking up in support of Trump's idea is a move towards the military being perceived as political, and that's the last thing anyone should want to see.

The other reality in the mix, and this would be relevant for the Active Duty side vs the retired/prior service side is the intelligence information they have access to. If they have intel that does back up Trump's claim that they're dealing with a coordinated attempt to destabilize the nation, then they are contending with an insurrection, even if the public isn't fully cognizant of that fact.

And fighting an insurrection is a specific thing they are permitted to do, and probably should continue to be, especially if foreign parties are verifiably involved.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: TheDeamon on June 04, 2020, 10:28:52 AM
Quote
Trump's biggest problem is he wants to seem like he's in the middle of everything.

It says a lot about each of us in how we respond to Mattis's and others comments.  That's his biggest problem?

I wasn't responding to Mattis. I was responding to the problem with Trump. He wasn't to seem more important than he is, he wants to keep his name in lights, and he's extremely "tone deaf" on a number of issues. Nuance is utterly lost on the man, and that is the single biggest thing in play when Mattis complains about how Trump is "dividing" America.

While I agree with him that he is doing that. I disagree with him on it being deliberate on Trump's part. That Trump is also dealing with a hostile press which will find any and every means possible to twist anything he does into the most nefarious thing conceivable doesn't help when paired with his lack of nuance and lack of a self-filter.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: yossarian22c on June 04, 2020, 11:29:33 AM
Quote
Trump's biggest problem is he wants to seem like he's in the middle of everything.

It says a lot about each of us in how we respond to Mattis's and others comments.  That's his biggest problem?

Don't bother Kasandra. We all know "Trump is a good man," everyone who has ever met him says so. Those that didn't say so didn't really know the one true great philosopher king of modern america.  ::)
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: rightleft22 on June 04, 2020, 11:32:00 AM
Quote
Trump's biggest problem is he wants to seem like he's in the middle of everything.

It says a lot about each of us in how we respond to Mattis's and others comments.  That's his biggest problem?

I wasn't responding to Mattis. I was responding to the problem with Trump. He wasn't to seem more important than he is, he wants to keep his name in lights, and he's extremely "tone deaf" on a number of issues. Nuance is utterly lost on the man, and that is the single biggest thing in play when Mattis complains about how Trump is "dividing" America.

While I agree with him that he is doing that. I disagree with him on it being deliberate on Trump's part. That Trump is also dealing with a hostile press which will find any and every means possible to twist anything he does into the most nefarious thing conceivable doesn't help when paired with his lack of nuance and lack of a self-filter.

" He wasn't to seem more important than he is, he wants to keep his name in lights" Begs the question 'Why does he want to 'keep his name in lights' and dominate the narrative. I think its understandable that some think the reason his narcissism and wanting to appear more important or the most important.
There of course could be other explanations.

Its the true the press tends to view most of everything Trump says as 'nefarious' however his communication style makes that to easy. A Leader might take that into account and adjust. That in four years Trump continues to 'double down' begs the question if Trump find value - payoff - in being 'missunderstood'. His lack of nuance though poor leadership works for him
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: NobleHunter on June 04, 2020, 11:39:57 AM
Mattis makes some good points but what happens when the police abandon their posts and the governors don't do anything either and just let chaos and anarchy rule while the cities burn? I wouldn't want to see our military attacking civilians but when the alternative is what we've seen with police stations themselves getting burned out and nothing being done about it then somebody has got to do something. If the local cops won't stop it, the mayors won't stop it, and the governors won't stop it then there is only one person left.

If the cops abandoned their posts, the rioting would quickly subside. The cops are causing much of the violence, not restraining it.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: TheDeamon on June 04, 2020, 12:45:07 PM
If the cops abandoned their posts, the rioting would quickly subside. The cops are causing much of the violence, not restraining it.

 ::)

Cops abandoning their posts would enable further looting and rioting to go with it, as nobody would be around with the ability to effectively stop it....

Well, unless you wanted the Boogs to go "Rooftop Korea"(shooting at "looters" from the rooftop of the building being defended) on people at point that instead?
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: wmLambert on June 04, 2020, 12:45:46 PM
...If the cops abandoned their posts, the rioting would quickly subside. The cops are causing much of the violence, not restraining it.

After the Blue State governors let all the criminals out of prison right before this handy "incident" gave an excuse for rioting, why would putting even more handcuffs on police help? When those rioters arrested are let back out on the street, why do you expect the riots to "quickly subside?" The riots have nothing to do with George Floyd. It has to do with opportunity, and is surely organized.

Are you insinuating that those orchestrating the rioting and looting will stop because they have met their goals? Interesting.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: NobleHunter on June 04, 2020, 12:49:38 PM
I'm saying without the police those orchestrating the violence won't have their tools.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: Kasandra on June 04, 2020, 12:54:19 PM
...If the cops abandoned their posts, the rioting would quickly subside. The cops are causing much of the violence, not restraining it.

After the Blue State governors let all the criminals out of prison right before this handy "incident" gave an excuse for rioting, why would putting even more handcuffs on police help? When those rioters arrested are let back out on the street, why do you expect the riots to "quickly subside?" The riots have nothing to do with George Floyd. It has to do with opportunity, and is surely organized.

Are you insinuating that those orchestrating the rioting and looting will stop because they have met their goals? Interesting.

Bear in mind that red states released older and sicker inmates, but blue states decided to only release murderers who were serving life sentences without possibility of parole.  On the way out the gate each was given a handout explaining how and where to apply for membership in antifa.  Guns and bricks have been set aside for them in special "safe" houses.  I'm glad you're on this, as I never would have known all this otherwise.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: TheDeamon on June 04, 2020, 01:09:22 PM
I'm saying without the police those orchestrating the violence won't have their tools.

Which ones? The looters don't care if the police don't.

AntiFa(and others) trying to recreate visuals from the 1960's of the police engaging in riot control is another matter, but police did eventually get smarter on that. Establishing larger buffers between themselves and the protestors so that they were able to simply ignore the people throwing bricks/stones/other things in their direction.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: wmLambert on June 04, 2020, 01:24:15 PM
...On the way out the gate each was given a handout explaining how and where to apply for membership in antifa.  Guns and bricks have been set aside for them in special "safe" houses.  I'm glad you're on this, as I never would have known all this otherwise.
Actually, you're not far off. You need to understand what "cannon fodder" means. When the Democrats let criminals on the streets, they were available for rioting and looting, weren't they? The activists - who have admitted getting paid by Soros, are like the Iranian generals who sent the children loaded with explosives into the Iraqi lines. The generals didn't care if the children were blown up. It was the psychological burden they placed on the Iraqi's to shoot them before they got too close that they wanted. Cannon fodder. The Iranians screamed, "baby killers?" Just think about whose side you are on.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: Kasandra on June 04, 2020, 03:15:03 PM
...On the way out the gate each was given a handout explaining how and where to apply for membership in antifa.  Guns and bricks have been set aside for them in special "safe" houses.  I'm glad you're on this, as I never would have known all this otherwise.
Actually, you're not far off. You need to understand what "cannon fodder" means. When the Democrats let criminals on the streets, they were available for rioting and looting, weren't they? The activists - who have admitted getting paid by Soros, are like the Iranian generals who sent the children loaded with explosives into the Iraqi lines. The generals didn't care if the children were blown up. It was the psychological burden they placed on the Iraqi's to shoot them before they got too close that they wanted. Cannon fodder. The Iranians screamed, "baby killers?" Just think about whose side you are on.

I can't make anything too absurd that you won't buy into it, as long as in your mind it captures the hate you foster for "the left".  I'm going to take a break from you for a bit.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: wmLambert on June 04, 2020, 03:43:19 PM
...I can't make anything too absurd that you won't buy into it, as long as in your mind it captures the hate you foster for "the left".  I'm going to take a break from you for a bit.

No, you just can't admit being so wrong. You need a nemesis, I guess.

I do not hate the Left, if you read my essay on Political Dysfunction. you would know I appreciate that most Leftists honestly believe disinformation that drives their ideology. I went chapter and verse defining how and what they were presented, and how it was incorrect. Not evil - just incorrect.

However, holding onto lies when you know them to not be true may be evil. Every person has the responsibility to seek truth and fight disinformation. When you disinform, even though you think you are correct, you must accept the bounce back that may occur. I hope you can grow that much.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: LetterRip on June 08, 2020, 05:11:29 PM
Asymptomatic has five different meanings, which is why there is confusion.

There is 'paucisymptomatic' - people report not having symptoms even though they in fact have mild symptoms - 'it is just allergies', etc.  This is when people respond to questionaires and report not having symptoms.

There is 'presymptomatic' - this is having come in contact with someone and caught the virus, yet not having a viral load sufficient to cause noticable symptoms.

There is atypical presentation - not having the definitive symptom of a fever spike.

There are false positives - the person is 'asymptomatic' because they were never actually infected.

There is truely asymptomatic - a person who never develops clinical symptoms.

Most 'asymptomatic' individuals usually a false positive, paucisymptomatic, or presymptomatic, and most of the rest are atypical presentation, there is almost no truely asymptomatic.

Survey's will get 'asymptomatic' responses for paucisymptomatic and false positives.
Testing in hospitals will get presymptomatic, false positives, and atypical presentations.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: ScottF on June 08, 2020, 05:16:31 PM
Asymptomatic has five different meanings, which is why there is confusion.

There is 'paucisymptomatic' - people report not having symptoms even though they in fact have mild symptoms - 'it is just allergies', etc.  This is when people respond to questionaires and report not having symptoms.

There is 'presymptomatic' - this is having come in contact with someone and caught the virus, yet not having a viral load sufficient to cause noticable symptoms.

There is atypical presentation - not having the definitive symptom of a fever spike.

There are false positives - the person is 'asymptomatic' because they were never actually infected.

There is truely asymptomatic - a person who never develops clinical symptoms.

Most 'asymptomatic' individuals usually a false positive, paucisymptomatic, or presymptomatic, and most of the rest are atypical presentation, there is almost no truely asymptomatic.

Survey's will get 'asymptomatic' responses for paucisymptomatic and false positives.
Testing in hospitals will get presymptomatic, false positives, and atypical presentations.

Which meaning(s) do you think the WHO meant when they said that transmission from asymptomatic people was "very rare.”?
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: Kasandra on June 10, 2020, 07:56:28 PM
Trump speaks on behalf of failed confederate generals who fought (and lost) to defend slavery.  He won't change the names of the bases:

Quote
"These Monumental and very Powerful Bases have become part of a Great American Heritage, and a history of Winning, Victory, and Freedom. The United States of America trained and deployed our HEROES on these Hallowed Grounds, and won two World Wars," Trump tweeted. "Therefore, my Administration will not even consider the renaming of these Magnificent and Fabled Military Installations."

Trump did not address the issue of Confederate generals, but rather focused on the legacy of the facilities themselves, listing three bases in the South named for generals in the Confederate army.

"Our history as the Greatest Nation in the World will not be tampered with. Respect our Military!" he said.

He's defending the honor and memory of such notable American military leaders as:

* Lieut. General A.P. Hill - Killed during Third Battle of Petersburg

* General Robert E. Lee - Surrendered at Appomattox

* Major General George Pickett - Graduated last in his class at West Point, led Pickett's charge (bloody loss), fled to Canada to avoid prosecution for killing deserters

* General Braxton Bragg - Lost many battles, decommissioned by Jefferson Davis

* Lieut. General John Brown Gordon - Attorney, general (no military training, no major victories), politician, opposed Reconstruction

* Brigadier General Henry Benning - Fought to preserve slavery, no major war accomplishments

* Colonel Edmund Rucker - Participated in several battles, no major accomplishments

* General Pierre Gustave Toutant Beauregard - Defended Charleston, fell out with Jefferson Davis

* Lieut. General Leonidas Polk - No combat training, no major accomplishments, poor relationships with superiors

* General John Bell Hood - As general brave, aggressive, reckless, several major defeats

Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: Fenring on June 10, 2020, 07:57:39 PM
Which meaning(s) do you think the WHO meant when they said that transmission from asymptomatic people was "very rare.”?

Apparently when I brought that up it was worthy of ridicule. Maybe you'll do better...
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: TheDeamon on June 11, 2020, 12:59:49 AM
* Lieut. General A.P. Hill - Killed during Third Battle of Petersburg

* General Robert E. Lee - Surrendered at Appomattox

* Major General George Pickett - Graduated last in his class at West Point, led Pickett's charge (bloody loss), fled to Canada to avoid prosecution for killing deserters

* General Braxton Bragg - Lost many battles, decommissioned by Jefferson Davis

* Lieut. General John Brown Gordon - Attorney, general (no military training, no major victories), politician, opposed Reconstruction

* Brigadier General Henry Benning - Fought to preserve slavery, no major war accomplishments

* Colonel Edmund Rucker - Participated in several battles, no major accomplishments

* General Pierre Gustave Toutant Beauregard - Defended Charleston, fell out with Jefferson Davis

* Lieut. General Leonidas Polk - No combat training, no major accomplishments, poor relationships with superiors

* General John Bell Hood - As general brave, aggressive, reckless, several major defeats

Robert E. Lee is a more complicated story, and some of those generals played significant roles in the war of 1849, as Union Soldiers. Lee even gets to be noted as having run West Point for a few years during the 1850's and making several improvements to it while there.

As to the others, I'm a little more mixed on the matter. At the time it was "good politics" to "honor the local guys" and ignore the matter of which side they fought for during the Civil War. Enough time has past that the politics of "healing old wounds" with regards to "the side that lost" is no longer very relevant, and it is now about healing the wounds of Jim Crow laws and the other legacies of those men.

More generally though it isn't about just those guys, its about the general idea of judging past historical figures by present day standards, and more importantly the inherent issue to be had when people manage to "white wash history" and in the process of doing so, inadvertently creating conditions which could foster the same thing happening again. "Those who forget the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them" and erasing portions of the history that are inconvenient to modern sensibilities simply opens the door to those "inconvenient things" coming back to visit future generations because someone saw fit to erase that context from history.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: Kasandra on June 11, 2020, 06:35:45 AM
Quote
More generally though it isn't about just those guys, its about the general idea of judging past historical figures by present day standards, and more importantly the inherent issue to be had when people manage to "white wash history" and in the process of doing so, inadvertently creating conditions which could foster the same thing happening again. "Those who forget the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them" and erasing portions of the history that are inconvenient to modern sensibilities simply opens the door to those "inconvenient things" coming back to visit future generations because someone saw fit to erase that context from history.

Good points.  Trump made the mistake of equating the namesakes of the bases who dedicated their military service to preserving slavery with the honor of those based in them who served the entire country in times of national conflict.  Most of these generals didn't do much for their cause during the war and didn't give much back to the country after the War ended.  Their history is part of ours, and so is the shame.  Trump doesn't know what that feeling is.

The move to brown-wash history didn't start two weeks ago, but has accelerated.  More statues will fall down or be taken away and put behind closed doors.  Even NASCAR is banning confederate symbols from their tracks (we'll see how that goes). Nothing is driving the current protests and disruptions more than Trump himself, who is appealing to the worst instincts of his shrinking fan base and becoming the symbol of the outrage and may become its target. 

Many years ago I saw a cartoon of an award being presented to a very ugly woman at a beauty contest.  The presenter handed her a small trophy and said something like, "We recognize exceptional contestants no matter the direction their achievement takes."  I think it was aimed at Nixon.  Trump wants one.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: Kasandra on June 11, 2020, 11:09:21 AM
Now this (https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2020/06/11/pentagons-top-general-apologizes-appearing-alongside-trump-lafayette-square/?pwapi_token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.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.P3VYUEBmhxMiDkDwulL8qXoWdZ9Fl3HNdy9xytX-JDs&utm_campaign=wp_news_alert_revere&utm_medium=email&utm_source=alert&wpisrc=al_news__alert-politics--alert-national&wpmk=1) from Gen. Mark A. Milley.

Quote
The Pentagon’s top general apologized on Thursday for his appearing alongside President Trump near the White House after authorities forcibly removing peaceful protesters from the area, saying that it “was a mistake that I have learned from."

Gen. Mark A. Milley, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, made the remarks in a prerecorded graduation speech to students at the National Defense University.

Milley advised the students that it is important to keep “a keen sense of situational awareness” and acknowledged his failure to do so on June 1, as he walked from Lafayette Square in combat fatigues alongside the president, Defense Secretary Mark T. Esper and other senior advisers.

“As many of you saw the results of the photograph of me in Lafayette Square last week, that sparked a national debate about the role of the military in civil society,” Milley said. “I should not have been there. My presence in that moment, and in that environment, created the perception of the military involved in domestic politics.”
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: Kasandra on June 13, 2020, 07:39:37 AM
The trickle is becoming a stream now.  Robert Gates yesterday (https://www.npr.org/2020/06/12/875380604/former-defense-secretary-gates-pushing-away-peaceful-protesters-was-a-bad-mistak):

Quote
Gates, who was secretary of defense from 2006 to 2011 under Presidents George W. Bush and Barack Obama, spoke with NPR about his new book, Exercise of Power: American Failures, Successes, and a New Path Forward in the Post-Cold War World.

In the conversation, he weighed in on Trump's response to the protest movement against racial injustice. He said it's time to change the names of Confederate bases. "There comes a moment when things become possible and people ought to seize a moment when it presents itself, and this is such a moment."

Gates reflected on former Defense Secretary Jim Mattis' statement of criticism of Trump's leadership, published on June 4, saying he agrees with Mattis: "It's hard to disagree that this president is a divider."

He continued: "I think that we are in a weaker position in the world today than we were three years ago."

Looking to November, Gates said "I think that what the country needs is somebody who will try to bring us together." He added that despite disagreements on foreign policy, presidential candidate and former Vice President Joe Biden is "a man of great integrity" and a "decent human being."
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: TheDeamon on June 13, 2020, 11:35:02 AM
The trickle is becoming a stream now.  Robert Gates yesterday (https://www.npr.org/2020/06/12/875380604/former-defense-secretary-gates-pushing-away-peaceful-protesters-was-a-bad-mistak):

The thing that bothers me more on this is the revision of history in regards to Obama.

Trump's the first President to seek to divide the people?

Obama intentionally split the population on a number of issues, and did it very deliberately using focus group tested phrasings and so on and so forth. Remember those "wedge issues" Obama's supporters were constantly talking about? What does a wedge do? Oh right, it divides.

The thing was, Obama was very slick about how he did it, and "he used the right words" in addition to being a black man, so he gets a free pass.

Meanwhile, Trump is very divisive, but most of his divisiveness seems to come from his being utterly tone-deaf, rather than any deliberate intention to so in large part. In some ways it makes Trump more dangerous as he doesn't think about what proverbial ant-hill he is about to kick over, while Obama's team analyzed the living daylights out that proverbial anthill before taking their own swing at it.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: Kasandra on June 13, 2020, 11:58:34 AM
Anything any President does occurs in the context of partisan politics.  Lyndon Johnson was bitterly opposed on the Clean Air Act, the Civil Rights Act, the Voting Rights Act, Immigration policy reform, social welfare programs and other things.  He once said that if he walked on water across the Potomac Republicans would dismiss the act and say he just didn't know how to swim.  As with Johnson, Obama's attempts to "divide the people" were overwhelmingly in support of larger objectives to benefit segments of society without diminishing others, rather than to divide and conquer, as Trump continually does.

Trump is more than "tone deaf".  He is impervious to reason and even moral behavior.  He gives lip service on rare occasions to things like racism but turns around instantly and claims that seeing the National Guard tear gas protesters was "a beautiful thing" and admires how a line of police pushed through crowds of lawful protesters like "a knife cutting butter." 

You have a persistent habit of announcing that you have deep concerns about Trump, but then turn around and tacitly support almost everything he does, this time while diminishing Obama in the process.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: DonaldD on June 13, 2020, 12:54:27 PM
YouTube: One man's take on what it means to support Trump, even despite your reservations (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8TUgopVjAU&fbclid=IwAR2rTpLeYToEdvfgEU7_3MnHLy6xxaOAjN5EbTArDZavhp-UtcZFDbewcLM)
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: wmLambert on June 13, 2020, 12:58:14 PM
...Trump is more than "tone deaf".  He is impervious to reason and even moral behavior.

When Mattis said, "We are witnessing the consequences of three years without mature leadership. We can unite without him..." He was doing what he just argued against. Trump is the Unifier - not the destroyer. That is a perfect example of Democrat projection. They could not stand Hillary losing, so immediately set up Operation Crossfire Hurricane and Razer to discredit him. That was not an attempt at unity. Almost every time he speaks it is a unifying speech - but not represented as such by the complicit media. He has to resort to alternate social media posting to bypass the MSM lack of professionalism.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: DonaldD on June 13, 2020, 01:19:14 PM
Trump is the Unifier - not the destroyer. That is a perfect example of Democrat projection.
Here's a assignment for the class; if that is a "perfect example" of Democrat projection (drink!!) then who is the Great Unifier actually unifying with - Republicans?  Is he unifying the 55% of the people who disapprove of him?
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: TheDeamon on June 13, 2020, 02:10:19 PM
You have a persistent habit of announcing that you have deep concerns about Trump, but then turn around and tacitly support almost everything he does, this time while diminishing Obama in the process.

We've had this discussion in the past.

Trump is the chintzy used car salesman trying to sell a lemon. While he does head up the executive branch, there are other checks and balances in place to keep him from being able to get too far "out of hand" as he's not sophisticated at all in what he tries to do.

The Democrats on the other hand, they're slime balls too, but they're the ultra-slick non-stick teflon type who are going to do far worse to you than getting you to sign the bottom line on buying a used car they know to be a lemon.

I'll take my chances with the used car salesman.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: Fenring on June 13, 2020, 04:24:05 PM
Trump is the Unifier - not the destroyer. That is a perfect example of Democrat projection.
Here's a assignment for the class; if that is a "perfect example" of Democrat projection (drink!!) then who is the Great Unifier actually unifying with - Republicans?  Is he unifying the 55% of the people who disapprove of him?

To be fair I think both posts are good examples of the partisan trench warfare that prevents any agreement on anything. As I've mentioned, the beauty of mudslinging is when both sides are correct; that way they can both feel like the other side is lying about their own guilt. Trump may well be a divider, but let's face it, the Democratic party clearly did set out to completely sabotage Trump's presidency from the moment Hillary lost. It was a scorched Earth initiative and took "not my President" to a new level. Trump may even be just as bad as they say, and yet they also sought to divide the country and undermine the due process. It's hard for either side to admit they're wrong when they know they're right. Turns out you can be right (about accusing the other side) and wrong (about your own integrity) at the same time. Funny how no one can agree on anything under the circumstances...
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: wmLambert on June 13, 2020, 06:57:47 PM
Trump is the Unifier - not the destroyer. That is a perfect example of Democrat projection.
Here's a assignment for the class; if that is a "perfect example" of Democrat projection (drink!!) then who is the Great Unifier actually unifying with - Republicans?  Is he unifying the 55% of the people who disapprove of him?

To be fair I think both posts are good examples of the partisan trench warfare that prevents any agreement on anything. As I've mentioned, the beauty of mudslinging is when both sides are correct; that way they can both feel like the other side is lying about their own guilt. Trump may well be a divider, but let's face it, the Democratic party clearly did set out to completely sabotage Trump's presidency from the moment Hillary lost. It was a scorched Earth initiative and took "not my President" to a new level. Trump may even be just as bad as they say, and yet they also sought to divide the country and undermine the due process. It's hard for either side to admit they're wrong when they know they're right. Turns out you can be right (about accusing the other side) and wrong (about your own integrity) at the same time. Funny how no one can agree on anything under the circumstances...

Sounds logical, but you are guilty of accepting disinformation and projection. It was never Trump who wanted to stop minorities from immigrating. He only wanted illegal aliens stopped. (From the same areas that Obama targeted.) Yet the democrats and Never-Trumpers accused him for wanting what he never said, and too many hapless idiot-morons believe it.

The call was made at Obama's level to attack the new administration, and the untrue charges of Trump being a Putin pawn was never true, but is still alleged. Likewise, all the unproved accusations against him were never true, and it is frustrating to see lies promoted as truth by a complicit media, that even when such charges are disproved, no retraction is made. The Democrat voting base believes it all.

It was Obama who put kids in cages, but the Democrats projected that onto Trump. It was Obama who worsened the Black/White discord, and Trump who lowered Black unemployment, made huge rarely covered policies to help insalubrious communities, and did a whole lot more than Obama ever did.

The projection is one way, but the definition of it means the Democrats will say it is the other side doing it.

You do a disservice by accepting the disinformation and then saying "both sides do It." Sorry, but you can't believe that.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: Aris Katsaris on June 15, 2020, 01:55:25 AM
It was Obama who put kids in cages, but the Democrats projected that onto Trump. It was Obama who worsened the Black/White discord, and Trump who lowered Black unemployment, made huge rarely covered policies to help insalubrious communities, and did a whole lot more than Obama ever did.

So if we examine an unambiguously white-racist or even neonazi forum, are you saying they'll have a negative opinion for Trump and a positive opinion for Obama and Biden?
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: Kasandra on June 15, 2020, 03:31:40 PM
And our nominee for the faint praise award goes to Robert Gates:

Quote
“Unlike his three predecessors, and I write about this in the book, at least he hasn’t started any new wars, and he has robustly funded the military. I supported his outreach to North Korea,” Gates told Chuck Todd.

“It hasn’t come to anything, but I thought that was a bold move and everything else had failed in the previous 25 years.”
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: TheDeamon on June 15, 2020, 03:34:08 PM
So if we examine an unambiguously white-racist or even neonazi forum, are you saying they'll have a negative opinion for Trump and a positive opinion for Obama and Biden?

Well, they did endorse Obama in 2008.

https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/news/a4719/racists-support-obama-061308/

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/white-supremacists-see-hope-in-obama-win/
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: TheDrake on June 15, 2020, 05:32:26 PM
Quote
In an informal Esquire survey, three out of four white supremacists prefer Obama, while McCain is the clear favorite among black nationalists. (Sure, our methodology suffered from an extraordinarily low sample size--limited to four white supremacists and one black nationalist--but just because it wouldn't fly with Gallup doesn't mean there ain't a kernel of truth in there.)

Powerful stuff. There's also a difference between endorsement and preference.

Quote
"The corporations are running things now, so it's not going to make much difference who's in there, but McCain would be much worse. He's a warmonger. He's a scary, scary person--more dangerous than Bush. Obama, according to his book, Dreams Of My Father, is a racist and I have no problem with black racists. I've got the quote right here: 'I found a solace in nursing a pervasive sense of grievance and animosity against my mother's white race.' The problem with Obama is he's being dishonest about his racial views. I'd respect him if he'd just come out and say, 'Yeah, I'm a black racist.' I don't hate black people. I just think it's in the best interest of the races to be separated as much as possible. See, I'm a leftist. I'm not a rightist. I hate the transnational corporations far more than any black person."

Quote
Obama may be a racist in a positive sense for his people--that will awaken a lot of the whites, knock some sense into them. They'll see that non-white Americans are allowed to be proud of who they are, to be racially conscious, to talk about their people or their community without being attacked as being racist.

Quote
Then, we have a black man, who loves his own kind, belongs to a Black-Nationalist religion, is married to a black women--when usually negroes who have 'made it' immediately land a white spouse as a kind of prize--that's the kind of negro that I can respect. Any time that a prominent person embraces their racial heritage in a positive manner, it's good for all racially minded folks.

So here, they like him because they see him as a way to get other white people to get angrier? It's not really endorsing him. Same goes for the CBS article.

Quote
They're not exactly rooting for Barack Obama, but prominent white supremacists anticipate a boost to their cause if he becomes the first black president. His election, they say, would trigger a backlash - whites rising up, a revolution of sorts - that they think is long overdue.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: TheDeamon on June 15, 2020, 05:37:48 PM
Quote
In an informal Esquire survey, three out of four white supremacists prefer Obama, while McCain is the clear favorite among black nationalists. (Sure, our methodology suffered from an extraordinarily low sample size--limited to four white supremacists and one black nationalist--but just because it wouldn't fly with Gallup doesn't mean there ain't a kernel of truth in there.)

Powerful stuff. There's also a difference between endorsement and preference.

Oh hey, then you can understand the position a lot of Conservatives and moderates are in with regards to Trump? (vs Biden)
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: DonaldD on June 15, 2020, 05:44:14 PM
Quote
In an informal Esquire survey, three out of four white supremacists prefer Obama, while McCain is the clear favorite among black nationalists. (Sure, our methodology suffered from an extraordinarily low sample size--limited to four white supremacists and one black nationalist--but just because it wouldn't fly with Gallup doesn't mean there ain't a kernel of truth in there.)

Powerful stuff. There's also a difference between endorsement and preference.

Oh hey, then you can understand the position a lot of Conservatives and moderates are in with regards to Trump? (vs Biden)
You mean... conservatives voting for Trump in order to trigger a backlash against... Republicans?  White folk? To trigger a black uprising?  i don't think the equivalency you are looking for is there...
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: TheDrake on June 15, 2020, 05:46:28 PM
Quote
In an informal Esquire survey, three out of four white supremacists prefer Obama, while McCain is the clear favorite among black nationalists. (Sure, our methodology suffered from an extraordinarily low sample size--limited to four white supremacists and one black nationalist--but just because it wouldn't fly with Gallup doesn't mean there ain't a kernel of truth in there.)

Powerful stuff. There's also a difference between endorsement and preference.

Oh hey, then you can understand the position a lot of Conservatives and moderates are in with regards to Trump? (vs Biden)

That's a little unclear to me. I know all about the lesser of evils argument for both of those guys. But Trump gets a full throated affirmation from that same group.

Quote
Don Black, the founder of Stormfront, which is far and away the most popular white supremacist site on the net, said his web traffic surges every time Donald Trump speaks, that radio listeners and callers have spiked, and that he's helping white supremacists build a movement that will last far beyond this campaign cycle.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: TheDeamon on June 15, 2020, 06:27:37 PM
Quote
Powerful stuff. There's also a difference between endorsement and preference.

Oh hey, then you can understand the position a lot of Conservatives and moderates are in with regards to Trump? (vs Biden)
You mean... conservatives voting for Trump in order to trigger a backlash against... Republicans?  White folk? To trigger a black uprising?  i don't think the equivalency you are looking for is there...

That's certainly one way to spin things.

I was commenting more in regards that when given a choice between Biden or Trump, they(conservatives) have a preference for Trump, but that isn't the same thing as an endorsement of Trump.

If he's able to distinguish between people being able to have a preference for an outcome vs an endorsement of it he should be able to figure that much out without it needing to be spelled out. But it seems both of you did, so communication failure on all sides?
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: Kasandra on June 19, 2020, 02:04:13 PM
Recently formed groups of current and former Republicans (https://www.newsweek.com/more-republicans-back-biden-unprecedented-rebuke-sitting-president-1511558) who have renounced the sitting President of their Party.

Quote
The latest super PAC of Republicans for Joe Biden, The Right Side PAC, includes short-lived former Trump communications director Anthony Scaramucci and launched Wednesday. Scaramucci told Newsweek he plans to go into swing states like Pennsylvania, Wisconsin and Michigan, in predominantly white areas that voted for Trump, to spread his message of why it's against their interest to continue to support him. The group will use digital, phone, and mail to reach voters and rely on major donors.
...
The creation of that PAC follows the new 45 Alumni for Biden PAC of former Bush administration officials that began this month. Former President George W. Bush will not support Trump, and his spokesman Freddy Ford told Newsweek he is also not involved in the PAC. But the group, which will fundraise for Biden, quickly gathered close to 200 supporters.
...
The fundraising efforts come on top of high-profile GOP defections, like former Secretary of State Colin Powell, who said June 7 that Trump "lies" and he will vote for Biden. Cindy McCain, the widow of former Senator John McCain, plans to support Biden but may not be public about it because of her son's political career, The New York Times reported.

Then there are the groups like The Lincoln Project, started by veterans of past Republican campaigns, which spent $1.4 million against Trump through March and raised another $1 million after the president attacked the group in May for their ad on his coronavirus response. Bill Kristol's Republican Voters Against Trump is also stocked by GOP operatives and is releasing searing ads against him, like one featuring Senator Lindsey Graham. The ad received widespread media coverage and attention on social media after showing Graham slamming Trump during the 2016 campaign and then lavishing praise on Biden.

Don't get me wrong. I'm sure some of them are fine people.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: TheDeamon on June 19, 2020, 04:30:46 PM
Never Trump rides again. I can sympathize, I don't intend to vote for Trump either. But I'm never going to endorse Biden.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: Kasandra on June 19, 2020, 04:33:44 PM
Never Trump rides again. I can sympathize, I don't intend to vote for Trump either. But I'm never going to endorse Biden.

Half a loaf is better than none :).
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: TheDrake on June 19, 2020, 04:39:50 PM
Never Trump rides again. I can sympathize, I don't intend to vote for Trump either. But I'm never going to endorse Biden.

Half a loaf is better than none :).

Just call me gluten free.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: Kasandra on June 19, 2020, 05:34:08 PM
On election day, you don't want to be caught sitting on your glutens.  The saying goes that this election is the most important one of your lifetime, and as is always the case, it's true.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: DonaldD on June 20, 2020, 03:30:24 PM
Not a huge surprise, and it likely changes nothing as regards actions on the ground, but Federal judge denies Trump administration's attempt to block release of Bolton's book (https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/20/politics/judge-john-bolton-book/index.html)
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: TheDrake on June 20, 2020, 09:17:38 PM
On election day, you don't want to be caught sitting on your glutens.  The saying goes that this election is the most important one of your lifetime, and as is always the case, it's true.

Democrats had the chance to put forward a progressive candidate with integrity, they blew it. Maybe four more years of Trump will be what they need to get it together.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: Wayward Son on June 22, 2020, 06:50:30 PM
TheDrake said:
Quote
Democrats had the chance to put forward a progressive candidate with integrity, they blew it. Maybe four more years of Trump will be what they need to get it together.

But can the country survive another four more years of Trump?

Consider how much damage he has done already.  The Justice Department under Barr is becoming a completely-controlled arm of the Presidency.  The FBI may well follow.  Who gets put into the Supreme Court when RBG retires/dies?  Already around 1/4 of judges are Trump appointees.  What happens when they are half or three-quarters?

And how many more environmental regulations are you willing to see undone?  How many voting rights removed?  How many immigrant families should be torn apart while the Democrats learn their lesson? How much additional CO2 will be released into the atmosphere?

And how about our international reputation?  How long with our allies wait while we dismiss them and cuddle up to despots?

Look over the list of what Donald Trump and his toadies have done over the last 3 1/2 years and ask yourself how much more they will do when Donald isn't even worried about re-election?  When he knows for certain that at least 34 Senators will ignore any crimes that he commits?  Imagine how bad it could be.

Is that really worth teaching the Democrats a lesson?

Look forward to the 2024 election to get a progressive candidate for President.  But right now, let's make sure there will be a 2024 election.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: TheDrake on June 22, 2020, 06:55:17 PM
People said a second Bush term would be the ruin of the country. People said a second Obama term would be the ruin of the country. People always say that crap, people always settle for the lesser of terrible choices. I'm done with that. A party can put up a person who is competent, has integrity, and has vision, or they can watch me not vote for their candidate. Period.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: Kasandra on June 23, 2020, 06:45:26 AM
People said a second Bush term would be the ruin of the country. People said a second Obama term would be the ruin of the country. People always say that crap, people always settle for the lesser of terrible choices. I'm done with that. A party can put up a person who is competent, has integrity, and has vision, or they can watch me not vote for their candidate. Period.

Odd to me that here you are going for the more pure solution.  I wonder how many people who voted for Nader in Florida in 2000 still insist they are proud of themselves.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: TheDrake on June 23, 2020, 04:18:31 PM
You assume Nader voters aren't proud of themselves? Why do you assume they regret not voting for an uninspiring man of modest accomplishments (Gore) versus a dynamic champion of justice (Nader)? Maybe instead you should be asking all the Gore voters if they regret not voting for Nader?
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: Kasandra on June 23, 2020, 04:50:33 PM
You assume Nader voters aren't proud of themselves? Why do you assume they regret not voting for an uninspiring man of modest accomplishments (Gore) versus a dynamic champion of justice (Nader)? Maybe instead you should be asking all the Gore voters if they regret not voting for Nader?

I'm sure many do, but the saying "perfect is the enemy of the good" comes to mind.  I've become more pragmatic in my voting habits, even if to some that might seem like choosing the lesser of evils.  Sometimes the evil, in this case Trump, is so great that the imperative to keep him from winning the election is itself a matter of principle - the greater good.  Ask yourself how many excess deaths have occurred due to his governance and inaction, and how many more excess deaths will there be if he continues in office for another 4 years?  How many more impeachable acts that harm the interests of the country will he commit and remain in office?  How much more dysfunction and harm will he do to Congressional right to oversee the Executive and to countless socially necessary programs and agencies?  How many lives will be harmed by his lack of any sort of moral compass that will deny people access to medical care?  Then ask whether those things would be as bad under the lesser Biden evil and whether it's worth making the practical rather than the purely principled choice.  Or vote for your great aunt Millie, because she's a truly wonderful person.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: TheDrake on June 24, 2020, 12:09:34 PM
Condescend all you want, but what matters isn't bad outcomes over the next 4 years. What matters is what happens over the next 400.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: Wayward Son on June 24, 2020, 12:33:17 PM
People said a second Bush term would be the ruin of the country. People said a second Obama term would be the ruin of the country. People always say that crap, people always settle for the lesser of terrible choices. I'm done with that. A party can put up a person who is competent, has integrity, and has vision, or they can watch me not vote for their candidate. Period.

Who cares what "people say?"  What do you say?

Do you say that another four years of Trump won't be that bad?  How many more immigrant families need to be torn apart before you think it is bad?  How many Trump toadies need to have their convictions dropped?  How many foreign countries need to be pressured into supporting a Presidential candidate?  How many peaceful protesters need to be tear gassed and pepper sprayed?  How many laws and norms have to spat upon?  How many times does the President need to tell everyone that YOU "hate our history, ... hate our values, and ... hate everything we prize as Americans?"

Do you truly believe that it won't be any worse in a second term?  That, without even worrying about re-election, he and his minions won't push things ever farther?  That greenhouse gases emissions won't increase?  That the military won't be used to quell protests?  (Trump already is cowering behind two walls around the White House.  How long will he stand for that?)  That young, far-right judges won't be seated in the Supreme Court, to stay there for another twenty, thirty, forty years?  You truly believe that things can't be worse than they are now, because others have been wrong in the past?

You really want to take that chance?

Biden was not elected because of some small cadre of Democratic conspirators.  He got the most votes in most states.  He is as far left as the Democratic party is willing to go right now.  Sure there could be someone better.  We may get him in the future.  But right now it's either Biden or Trump.  They will strongly influence the direction this country goes in for the next four years.  Do you really think it will be exactly the same direction?  Do you really think there is no discernable difference between those directions?  Do you really think these two men are interchangeable?  Do you really think there is no difference between those who are friendly to you and those who openly despise you and your values??

If you do, I don't think you really care about liberal values.  I don't think you really care about this country, as Trump says.  If you really believe that things will be just as bad if Biden or Trump is elected, then I really don't think you've thought it through or really care about the result.  If you're not willing to fight for what you believe, even so small a fight as to vote for someone who will move the country even in a miniscule way toward your ideal if only to help prevent the election of someone who will move it a large amount in the opposite direction, then you really don't have much belief.  You really don't think it matters that much.

Just remember--those who don't vote, don't count.  If the Democrats have your support in this next election and they win, they will listen to you if only to get your help in the next election.  If you don't vote, well, why should they listen to you, if listening to you may make them lose other votes and perhaps cost them the election?

Or would do you rather try to make Trump listen to you? :D
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: TheDrake on June 24, 2020, 01:15:25 PM
I always vote. I voted Johnson in 16. I voted against bad judges. I voted for Obama, because he had integrity. I will never vote for Biden. No matter what. He's a horrible person, and I am not okay with him.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: Kasandra on June 24, 2020, 01:37:48 PM
I always vote. I voted Johnson in 16. I voted against bad judges. I voted for Obama, because he had integrity. I will never vote for Biden. No matter what. He's a horrible person, and I am not okay with him.

Why?
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: DonaldD on June 24, 2020, 02:09:49 PM
Condescend all you want, but what matters isn't bad outcomes over the next 4 years. What matters is what happens over the next 400.
I think you strongly overestimate the effect of losing a single, or even a generarion-worth of elections.  All electoral lessons probably have a shelf life of less than a generation.  So choosing measurably bad results now in hopes of future long term electoral good is a losing strategy.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: TheDrake on June 24, 2020, 02:34:34 PM
Why not vote for Biden? Nepotism. Opposing busing. Groping women. No vision for healthcare. Massive support for police violence. Somehow managing to be less coherent than Trump. I wouldn't vote him in to a board position for my HOA, let alone running the country.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: Kasandra on June 24, 2020, 03:27:00 PM
Why not vote for Biden? Nepotism. Opposing busing. Groping women. No vision for healthcare. Massive support for police violence. Somehow managing to be less coherent than Trump. I wouldn't vote him in to a board position for my HOA, let alone running the country.

Aunt Millie it is.  For the rest of us, half a loaf.  FWIW, In a semi-recent interview Ralph Nader was asked if he had any regrets about 2000.  He didn't regret the votes he got, because like people said about Hillary, Gore should have run a better campaign.  OTOH, he does regret not running as a Democrat, as he wasn't running to win anyway, and hoped running as an independent might push Gore and the Democratic Party to more progressive positions.  Do you think he made the right choice?
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: Wayward Son on June 24, 2020, 04:05:54 PM
Why not vote for Biden? Nepotism. Opposing busing. Groping women. No vision for healthcare. Massive support for police violence. Somehow managing to be less coherent than Trump. I wouldn't vote him in to a board position for my HOA, let alone running the country.

Which of these is Biden actually worse than Trump?

More importantly, which of these issues would Trump actually be better at??  (Other than coherence, which I would argue is very debatable. :) )

If Biden doesn't win, it's going to be Trump.  You know it.  It's not a "who is best for the job" proposition.  It's a "which of these two is best for the job" proposition.

Which would be better to combat global warming?  Which would respect voting rights better?  Which would nominate Supreme Court justices that you'd like better?

You hate him?  Fine.  See who his Vice Presidential candidate is.  You might like her better, and she has a good shot of being President in 2024.

I'd like a better candidate than Biden, too.  But we can't always get what we want.  So we minimize the damage if nothing else.

You'll be in a better position to get a more liberal candidate in 2024 if Biden wins.  You will have a better chance of getting the programs you want enacted, if only partially, if Biden wins.  You stand no chance with Trump.

Seriously, if you wouldn't vote for him for a board position in your HOA, why the hell wouldn't you do everything you could to prevent Trump from taking that position??
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: Kasandra on June 24, 2020, 05:48:21 PM
A new poll from Nate Silver and NYTimes/Siena (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/24/us/politics/trump-biden-poll-nyt-upshot-siena-college.html).  They also published their methodology for people to validate or quibble over (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/23/upshot/poll-2020-election-method.html?campaign_id=9&emc=edit_nn_20200624&instance_id=19663&nl=the-morning&regi_id=869778&segment_id=31720&te=1&user_id=9e9f04c8f6e837007d83b32749ed41fd).

Quote
Joseph R. Biden Jr. has taken a commanding lead over President Trump in the 2020 race, building a wide advantage among women and nonwhite voters and making deep inroads with some traditionally Republican-leaning groups that have shifted away from Mr. Trump following his ineffective response to the coronavirus pandemic, according to a new national poll of registered voters by The New York Times and Siena College.

Mr. Biden is currently ahead of Mr. Trump by 14 percentage points, garnering 50 percent of the vote compared with 36 percent for Mr. Trump. That is among the most dismal showings of Mr. Trump’s presidency, and a sign that he is the clear underdog right now in his fight for a second term.

Mr. Trump has been an unpopular president for virtually his entire time in office. He has made few efforts since his election in 2016 to broaden his support beyond the right-wing base that vaulted him into office with only 46 percent of the popular vote and a modest victory in the Electoral College.

But among a striking cross-section of voters, the distaste for Mr. Trump has deepened as his administration failed to stop a deadly disease that crippled the economy and then as he responded to a wave of racial-justice protests with angry bluster and militaristic threats. The dominant picture that emerges from the poll is of a country ready to reject a president whom a strong majority of voters regard as failing the greatest tests confronting his administration.

Mr. Biden leads Mr. Trump by enormous margins with black and Hispanic voters, and women and young people appear on track to choose Mr. Biden by an even wider margin than they favored Hillary Clinton over Mr. Trump in 2016. But the former vice president has also drawn even with Mr. Trump among male voters, whites and people in middle age and older — groups that have typically been the backbones of Republican electoral success, including Mr. Trump’s in 2016.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: TheDeamon on June 24, 2020, 06:02:22 PM
I know anecdotally in my own family distaste for Trump is at an all time high, and some family members who voted for him in the past are considering not doing so again. But mostly it's over his blustery response over the rioting and protesting than anything else.

There are a few other factors in play at present, and the Democrats need to tread carefully, they don't have this in the bag by a longshot. Trump's strategy at this point is to be the law and order/security candidate and will allow the Democrats to terrorize themselves through things like the CHOP in the interim. He's betting on things like the CHOP are going to sour voters on the Democrats before November rolls around.

Another things in play right now is the whole "cancel culture" mindset being in full swing, and people may not trust "Joe Pollster" calling them on the phone, they may be suspicious of being Dox'd or otherwise targeted if they give "the wrong answers" to left-wing activists. So there may a significant number of people actively lying to the pollsters this time around.

Yes, there were claims of this in 2016 as well, but those polls still mostly fell within the margin of error so it's hard to know. But with how things have progressed since then, they have more reason to lie now than they did then. Especially among young, single women, and minority groups.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: Kasandra on June 24, 2020, 06:58:59 PM
Quote
Another things in play right now is the whole "cancel culture" mindset being in full swing, and people may not trust "Joe Pollster" calling them on the phone, they may be suspicious of being Dox'd or otherwise targeted if they give "the wrong answers" to left-wing activists. So there may a significant number of people actively lying to the pollsters this time around.

Some people do lie to pollsters, but not very many.  As Silver pointed out, most people who answer calls from pollsters and take the surveys feel a legitimate impulse to add to the public discussion.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: TheDeamon on June 24, 2020, 07:16:52 PM
Quote
Another things in play right now is the whole "cancel culture" mindset being in full swing, and people may not trust "Joe Pollster" calling them on the phone, they may be suspicious of being Dox'd or otherwise targeted if they give "the wrong answers" to left-wing activists. So there may a significant number of people actively lying to the pollsters this time around.

Some people do lie to pollsters, but not very many.  As Silver pointed out, most people who answer calls from pollsters and take the surveys feel a legitimate impulse to add to the public discussion.

Historically, I'd agree. This year, I'm not sure that can be relied on. We'll see on election night, or at some point between now and then.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: Kasandra on June 25, 2020, 04:14:02 AM
Quote
Historically, I'd agree. This year, I'm not sure that can be relied on. We'll see on election night, or at some point between now and then.

Trump has created an atmosphere that brings out the worst in people and eggs them on to be worse yet if they don't suffer any consequences.  So, people will lie to pollsters without feeling any shame or regret.  It's like a virus, nobody can see the lie so it's like it didn't happen.  How freeing is that?!  People who think like that won't mind if Trump encourages states to rig the election and wins because of it, because nobody will take any responsibility for it and Trump will blame Democrats for corruption.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: Kasandra on June 30, 2020, 07:39:30 AM
Crap, what's wrong with these people (https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/29/politics/trump-phone-calls-national-security-concerns/index.html)?!?  They spend time in the same room with Trump, and they just don't get it.

Quote
In hundreds of highly classified phone calls with foreign heads of state, President Donald Trump was so consistently unprepared for discussion of serious issues, so often outplayed in his conversations with powerful leaders like Russian President Vladimir Putin and Turkish President Recep Erdogan, and so abusive to leaders of America's principal allies, that the calls helped convince some senior US officials -- including his former secretaries of state and defense, two national security advisers and his longest-serving chief of staff -- that the President himself posed a danger to the national security of the United States, according to White House and intelligence officials intimately familiar with the contents of the conversations.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: TheDeamon on June 30, 2020, 11:17:02 AM
The problem with that claim is if it is true, I'd be expecting the 25th Amendment to be getting invoked regularly. And for former officials to be loudly and frequently talking about using it to get him out ASAP.

As far as I can recall, it's only been the Democrats who have actively calling for that. Certain former officials from Trump's own Administration(rather than inherited from Obama) do seem to be pushing for impeachment, but not for the cabinet to use the 25th Amendment. That tends to suggest certain claims should be taken with a very large grain of salt.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: TheDrake on June 30, 2020, 12:13:12 PM
You can be considered a threat to National Security without being unable to serve. Lots of Republicans thought Obama was a threat to National Security, think Iran deal.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: Kasandra on June 30, 2020, 01:39:21 PM
The problem with that claim is if it is true, I'd be expecting the 25th Amendment to be getting invoked regularly. And for former officials to be loudly and frequently talking about using it to get him out ASAP.

As far as I can recall, it's only been the Democrats who have actively calling for that. Certain former officials from Trump's own Administration(rather than inherited from Obama) do seem to be pushing for impeachment, but not for the cabinet to use the 25th Amendment. That tends to suggest certain claims should be taken with a very large grain of salt.

Can you name a Democrat in Congress who called for the 25th Amendment to be used?
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: TheDeamon on June 30, 2020, 02:10:52 PM
The problem with that claim is if it is true, I'd be expecting the 25th Amendment to be getting invoked regularly. And for former officials to be loudly and frequently talking about using it to get him out ASAP.

As far as I can recall, it's only been the Democrats who have actively calling for that. Certain former officials from Trump's own Administration(rather than inherited from Obama) do seem to be pushing for impeachment, but not for the cabinet to use the 25th Amendment. That tends to suggest certain claims should be taken with a very large grain of salt.

Can you name a Democrat in Congress who called for the 25th Amendment to be used?

I wasn't aware that being in Congress was a requirement for membership in the Democratic Party. CNN seemed to have no shortage of mostly Democratic talking heads wanting Trump's Cabinet to use the 25th Amendment during the first year of Trump's Presidency.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: Kasandra on June 30, 2020, 02:22:09 PM
Who cares what talking heads say, or would you be willing to label everyone who comes on FOX and conservative talk radio programs Republicans?  We could have a lot of fun talking about the bat*censored* crazy things they want to do to Nancy Pelosi and Adam Schiff.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: TheDeamon on June 30, 2020, 02:38:42 PM
Who cares what talking heads say, or would you be willing to label everyone who comes on FOX and conservative talk radio programs Republicans?  We could have a lot of fun talking about the bat*censored* crazy things they want to do to Nancy Pelosi and Adam Schiff.

If the talking head on Fox identifies as Republican, then they're correctly identified as such. Even if others might like to claim otherwise.

Likewise, it is only reasonable to call self-identified Democrats on CNN, and there are several,  what they identify as.

If you want to talk about the party members in government, just be clear to specify which part of the government you're referencing.

But as for Whacky, the Democrats have plenty of that between certain members of the California delegation, AOC and come of her fellow Freshmen in the House.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: Kasandra on June 30, 2020, 03:41:43 PM
Quote
If the talking head on Fox identifies as Republican, then they're correctly identified as such. Even if others might like to claim otherwise.

Likewise, it is only reasonable to call self-identified Democrats on CNN, and there are several,  what they identify as.

OK, now you've done it.  Name a Democrat on CNN who called for the 25th Amendment on that network. <starting my stop watch....now.>
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: TheDeamon on June 30, 2020, 03:44:32 PM
Quote
If the talking head on Fox identifies as Republican, then they're correctly identified as such. Even if others might like to claim otherwise.

Likewise, it is only reasonable to call self-identified Democrats on CNN, and there are several,  what they identify as.

OK, now you've done it.  Name a Democrat on CNN who called for the 25th Amendment on that network. <starting my stop watch....now.>

https://www.cnn.com/2018/09/06/politics/elizabeth-warren-25th-amendment/index.html

Quote
Elizabeth Warren: Time to use 25th Amendment to remove Trump from office

Even better, I found you a United States Senator, who is a Democrat, speaking on CNN about how the 25th Amendment should be invoked if certain claims are true.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: Kasandra on June 30, 2020, 04:27:41 PM
Quote
Even better, I found you a United States Senator, who is a Democrat, speaking on CNN about how the 25th Amendment should be invoked if certain claims are true.

You are aware she is referencing WH officials who apparently were talking about invoking the 25th Amendment to remove Trump from office.  She didn't come up with this because of her own objection to something he did.  So your big reveal is that senior officials in the WH were thinking about it, and that's why she raised it on air.  Maybe you should find out who they were and you should go after them.

Quote
"If senior administration officials think the President of the United States is not able to do his job, then they should invoke the 25th Amendment," Warren told CNN. "The Constitution provides for a procedure whenever the Vice President and senior officials think the President can't do his job. It does not provide that senior officials go around the President -- take documents off his desk, write anonymous op-eds ... Everyone of these officials have sworn to uphold the Constitution of the United States. It's time for them to do their job."

The hard-charging comments by the potential 2020 presidential candidate come in the wake of the stunning New York Times piece where an anonymous official raises deep concerns about the President
Quote
and contends there were some initial conversations to invoke the 25th Amendment to remove the President from office
. The White House has aggressively pushed back on the piece, calling the author a traitor and a coward.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: Wayward Son on July 01, 2020, 03:47:05 PM
Meanwhile, here's a nice YouTube video compellation of Fox News personalities speaking out against the President. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-cZG81-MPQ) :)
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: Kasandra on July 01, 2020, 04:43:21 PM
Un*censored*ingcredible :(
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: DonaldD on July 01, 2020, 07:59:08 PM
At some point, everybody needs to answer this question: how can you not be working to keep this man as far away from power as possible?

Trump's resistance led intel agencies to brief him less and less on Russia (https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/01/politics/trump-intel-briefings-russia/index.html)
Quote
The President has created an environment that dissuades, if not prohibits, the mentioning of any intelligence that isn't favorable to Russia
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: TheDeamon on July 01, 2020, 08:42:23 PM
You'd have to convince them that the cure isn't worse than the disease.

And in the case of what the left-wingers are pushing, many will take the disease instead. Quite literally in some cases.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: DonaldD on July 01, 2020, 09:04:25 PM
You've really got to work hard to convince yourself that Biden has done or displayed any propensity to do anything nearly equivalent to bribing foreign leaders to interfere in US elections, to have his actions described as obstruction of justice by a special prosecutor, and to direct subordinates to avoid any discussion, in his presence, of security threats emanating from the country's main antagonist over the past 80 years.  Or for that matter, his complete mishandling of the pandemic response, his support for white supremacists, his dog whistles to racists, and his antagonism (at best) towards minorities; his directionless foreign policy, his lack of support for human rights, internationally and domestically, wed with his pandering to dictators, and the resulting loss of respect and influence worldwide.  That's not even getting into the list of criminals that have been removed from his administration, the rampant nepotism, nor the long line of previously respected former members of his cabinet and administration who have come out to decry him as being incompetent, even unhinged.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: TheDeamon on July 01, 2020, 10:16:48 PM
The closest thing to overt interference in the US elections, which should be considered interference, is some of the accusations from Bolton, and even the ones I'm aware of from him are laughable.

"If you want me to be re-elected president, please make sure the economy of the US doing well while I'm up for election(2020)."

So asking other nations to help make sure the United States is doing well economically is now a bribe? The more laughable side of that is how unlikely it is that any government would go so far as to adversely harm their own economy in order to do so.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: DonaldD on July 01, 2020, 10:48:10 PM
You really have to squint to make it look the way you characterize, but then there's the 10 other things that, had they been done by Obama or Clinton, you would have found disqualifying.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: Kasandra on July 01, 2020, 11:14:12 PM
I can understand (barely) that someone can prefer Trump on the basis of his policies and stances on specific issues, but it boggles the mind that anyone would prefer him over any other possible candidate to sit in the Oval Office.  Except for a few twisted souls who think he never lies, is lovable and honest, almost everyone who has known him and spoken publicly about him has or can attest to his almost subhuman lack of character.  200 officials who served in the George Bush Administration just announced that they have formed the second PAC for the express purpose of helping Joe Biden, whose policies they mostly disagree with, beat Trump in the election.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: TheDeamon on July 02, 2020, 12:23:54 AM
You really have to squint to make it look the way you characterize, but then there's the 10 other things that, had they been done by Obama or Clinton, you would have found disqualifying.

As Donald Rumsfield once said, "You go to war with with the Army you have, not the one you wish you had."

I wish the Republican option was anybody but Trump, in normal circumstances it would be reason to vote him out.

But the Democratic Party is insane, and "boring Joe Biden" would have been re-assuring, except for the whole matter of it being questionable on if he'll be mentally competent for performing the job come January, never mind 4 years from now. Which means it would likely be his staff running things until such time that they decide to end the charade and let the VP take over. And I'm not going to play Russian Roulette as to who is likely to end up in his cabinet. I also don't trust what could possibly happen with a Democrat Controlled Executive Branch and a possibly Democrat Controlled House and Senate (although ostensibly those races should be able to run separably from the Presidential race, and quite likely will in this cycle as I think it's unlikely that either candidate is likely to have a substantial "coat tail effect" in this upcoming election, but we could be surprised.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: DonaldD on July 02, 2020, 05:44:34 AM
Trump has already proven himself to be mentally as well as morally incompetent, so it's weird to hang your hat on the risk of Biden's loss of competence.

The rest makes sense: support the team's guy, even if he's already proved himself to be willing to sell out the country for personal gain.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: Kasandra on July 02, 2020, 08:57:39 AM
The discussion is no longer about what is wrong with Trump.  We all know his very public record.  The question is becoming more and more what is wrong with those who support him.  It's not good enough to say he's a despicable person, but Democrats are worse, so I'll vote for him over pretty much any Democrat in the upcoming election.  If Trump is "the lesser of two evils" show the evils of picking Joe Biden that outweigh Trump's horrendous failings.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: DonaldD on July 02, 2020, 10:27:06 AM
But the Democratic Party is insane
And speaking of insane, QAnon sympathizers win congressional primaries (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jul/01/who-is-lauren-boebert-republican-primary-qanon-trump).  Oh wait, those were Republican primaries - my bad.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: TheDeamon on July 02, 2020, 10:56:56 AM
The rest makes sense: support the team's guy, even if he's already proved himself to be willing to sell out the country for personal gain.

This is part of your problem regarding "sell out the country" and loss of international standing:

You're going to have a hard sell on getting Republicans to believe that a presumed return to Obama-era policies under Biden would be a verifiable improvement over what Trump is doing now. This also ignores the matter of it being odd to call Trump the "sell out" when it is the Clinton Foundation that has been documented to have received hundreds of millions of dollars from Russia and China over the years, but the Democrats were fine with that.

And Trump being "an international threat" is a non-factor for most Americans, when their bigger concern is the domestic threat the Democrats seem to want to turn the Federal Government into. They'll take international corruption over more domestic nanny state.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: DonaldD on July 02, 2020, 11:02:53 AM
It's funny how, when Dems have been at the wheel, the economy has recovered quite well.

Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: DonaldD on July 02, 2020, 11:07:46 AM
Which is all quite beside the point - it seems like you are just fine with Trump turning a blind eye to Russian bounties on US military personnel, his culpability in facilitating the spread of COVID-19 and the resulting deaths and economic fallout, his fanning the fires of ethnic divisions, etc, etc, etc.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: Kasandra on July 02, 2020, 01:54:21 PM
Quote
And Trump being "an international threat" is a non-factor for most Americans, when their bigger concern is the domestic threat the Democrats seem to want to turn the Federal Government into. They'll take international corruption over more domestic nanny state.

Countries all across Europe did the "nanny state" thing with C19 and their infection, hospitalization and death rates have fallen sharply in every one of them.  You should exclude Sweden, since they only partially nannied themselves and their C19 statistics are worse than those other countries.

I truly don't understand why people feel so strongly about their so-called individual freedoms that they think not getting vaccinated and dying as a result is somehow a badge of honor.  That applies to people who not only won't wear masks but yell at and even attack others who do.  In this case, you may die, but your honor will be even greater if you kill other people in the process.  That's not resisting the "nanny state", it's sheer anti-social insanity.

Republicans should rebrand themselves as the Darwin Party, but not because they buy into the socialist-democrat evolution hoax.  If God wanted us to live past tomorrow he would have given us brains, but instead he gave us chimps as grandparents.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: Kasandra on July 03, 2020, 03:46:32 AM
Former European Council President Donald Tusk wants Joe Biden to be the next U.S. president.

Tusk took to Twitter (https://twitter.com/donaldtuskEPP/status/1278618085977710594?s=20) on Thursday and said

Quote
"I’ve always believed in the Republican ideals and greatness of America:as an anti-Communist from “Solidarność”, Polish Prime Minister and as EU President. Reagan was my hero. And I got to know
@realDonaldTrump really well. These are the reasons why I pray for @JoeBiden’s success."
...
During a speech (https://www.politico.eu/article/donald-tusk-hits-back-at-us-president-donald-trump-united-nations/) to the U.N. General Assembly in September last year, Tusk said, without mentioning Trump by name: "To protect the truth, it is not enough to accuse others of promoting fake news. Frankly speaking, it would be enough to simply stop lying."
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: Wayward Son on July 12, 2020, 12:00:55 AM
“Unprecedented, historic corruption: an American president commutes the sentence of a person convicted by a jury of lying to shield that very president.” Mitt Romney

Quote
“While I understand the frustration with the badly flawed Russia-collusion investigation, in my view, commuting Roger Stone’s sentence is a mistake,” Toomey said. “He was duly convicted of lying to Congress, witness tampering, and obstruction a congressional investigation conducted by a Republican-led committee.”

Toomey also noted that Attorney General William Barr earlier this week called the prosecution of Stone “righteous” and said his prison sentence of three years and four months was “fair.” (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/newslocalpolitics/historic-corruption-2-republican-senators-denounce-trumps-commutation-of-stone/ar-BB16CMy8?li=BBnb7Kz)
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: Wayward Son on July 13, 2020, 12:23:06 PM
Former Republican Representative, Senator and Secretary of Defense William Cohen:  Trump is "taking us down the road to tyranny." (https://www.facebook.com/groups/OpenDiscussionOnChange/permalink/1356932561162962/)
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: Wayward Son on July 17, 2020, 10:19:22 AM
How about Maryland Governor Larry Hogan, who wrote an op-ed subtitled: "I'm a GOP governor. Why didn't Trump help my state with coronavirus testing?" (https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2020/07/16/larry-hogan-trump-coronavirus/)  (Hint: Trump is only interested in things he can claim credit for.)
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: DonaldD on July 17, 2020, 10:59:32 AM
Fox News' (?!?) Neil Cavuto Just Broke Into Trump's Speech to Correct Trump's Lies About Obama's Economy  (https://secondnexus.com/neil-cavuto-fact-checks-trump)

Quote
Trump credited himself with a low pre-pandemic unemployment rate and claimed the economic and banking regulations instituted by President Barack Obama had catastrophic effects.

That's when Neil Cavuto of Fox News cut into the President's speech to give the network's viewers something they may not be used to: a fact check.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: Wayward Son on July 20, 2020, 10:11:10 AM
Senator Ben Sasse, Republican, Nebraska: (https://politicalwire.com/2020/07/20/quote-of-the-day-2626/)
"I want more briefings but, more importantly, I want the whole White House to start acting like a team on a mission to tackle a real problem. Navarro’s Larry, Moe and Curly junior-high slap fight this week is yet another way to undermine public confidence that these guys grasp that tens of thousands of Americans have died and tens of millions are out of work."
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: TheDeamon on July 20, 2020, 10:35:55 AM
Senator Ben Sasse, Republican, Nebraska: (https://politicalwire.com/2020/07/20/quote-of-the-day-2626/)
"I want more briefings but, more importantly, I want the whole White House to start acting like a team on a mission to tackle a real problem. Navarro’s Larry, Moe and Curly junior-high slap fight this week is yet another way to undermine public confidence that these guys grasp that tens of thousands of Americans have died and tens of millions are out of work."

It's the argument Trump should be making, but won't because the Democrats will have a field day with parts of it.

We're at a cross-roads on what to do, the Economic Argument, paired with those actuarial tables, makes a strong argument for keeping things open to the maximum extent possible.

The Public Health Argument makes a strong case for much of the country's population centers going back into lockdown, which will do significant harm to the economy.

Meanwhile, the political side of it is a complete and total mess at this stage, as the tin-foil hat crowd is running rampant.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: DonaldD on July 20, 2020, 11:12:46 AM
So you are saying if Trump said the following, you think the Democrats would make political hay...?
i don't see how the Democrats could possibly get more political mileage out of that, than out of what already comes out of his mouth every day - especially since NOT making these points will unfortunately lead to many people ignoring or even contesting the efforts to get the pandemic under control, leading to more infections and deaths closer to the date of the election.

What's better, getting a few "I told you so"s from a few disgruntled Democrats in July, or hundreds of daily deaths and 10,000 new daily infections in November?

Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: Wayward Son on July 29, 2020, 10:45:19 AM
Stuart Stevens, Republican Political Consultant, Senior Strategist for Mitt Romney's Presidential campaign: (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/29/opinion/trump-republican-party-racism.html)

Quote
I spent decades working to elect Republicans, including Mr. Romney and four other presidential candidates, and I am here to bear reluctant witness that Mr. Trump didn’t hijack the Republican Party. He is the logical conclusion of what the party became over the past 50 or so years, a natural product of the seeds of race-baiting, self-deception and anger that now dominate it. Hold Donald Trump up to a mirror and that bulging, scowling orange face is today’s Republican Party.

I saw the warning signs but ignored them and chose to believe what I wanted to believe: The party wasn’t just a white grievance party; there was still a big tent; the others guys were worse. Many of us in the party saw this dark side and told ourselves it was a recessive gene. We were wrong. It turned out to be the dominant gene.

What is most telling is that the Republican Party actively embraced, supported, defended and now enthusiastically identifies with a man who eagerly exploits the nation’s racial tensions. In our system, political parties should serve a circuit breaker function. The Republican Party never pulled the switch...

How did this happen? How do you abandon deeply held beliefs about character, personal responsibility, foreign policy and the national debt in a matter of months? You don’t. The obvious answer is those beliefs weren’t deeply held. What others and I thought were bedrock values turned out to be mere marketing slogans easily replaced. I feel like the guy working for Bernie Madoff who thought they were actually beating the market.

Mr. Trump has served a useful purpose by exposing the deep flaws of a major American political party. Like a heavy truck driven over a bridge on the edge of failure, he has made it impossible to ignore the long-developing fault lines of the Republican Party. A party rooted in decency and values does not embrace the anger that Mr. Trump peddles as patriotism.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: msquared on July 29, 2020, 11:11:43 AM
I agree with that. Who is the real RINO?  Me or the Trumpites?
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: Wayward Son on August 23, 2020, 11:00:16 AM
Quote
One exchange was recorded after Barry heard her her brother talk about separating migrant children from their parents at the border.

Said Barry: “All he wants to do is appeal to his base. He has no principles. None. None. And his base, I mean my God, if you were a religious person, you want to help people. Not do this.”

She continued: “His g*d****ed tweet and lying, oh my God. I’m talking too freely, but you know. The change of stories. The lack of preparation. The lying. Holy sh*t.”

At one point Barry said to her niece: “It’s the phoniness of it all. It’s the phoniness and this cruelty. Donald is cruel.”

President Trump’s sister, Maryanne Trump Barry, recorded without  her knowledge. (https://politicalwire.com/2020/08/22/trumps-sister-recorded-saying-trump-has-no-principles/)
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: wmLambert on August 23, 2020, 11:41:09 AM
...A party rooted in decency and values does not embrace the anger that Mr. Trump peddles as patriotism.
[/quote]

This is the root of the anti-Trump push. Trump responds to anger, he doesn't create it. He is not racist, but they say he is. How would you respond? Trump constantly talks about how great the county is, and how great our future can be. Nothing dark. That darkness is entirely from the Left. Trump also does not feed into anger. He is always conciliatory, but refuses to accept pure disinformation presented as fake news. When that happens, he calls them out. The liars on the other side project that as anger. It is not. When a reporter on the Left lies repeatedly and knows he is lying, Trump will point out that reporter's personal bias and give that person a self-evident description or name that is so appropriate it sticks with the miscreant. Just desserts. Not dark. Not cruel. Just effective.

Kamala Harris says that what comes out of Trump's mouth is meant to distract. No. What she did against Kavanaugh was meant to distract. What Trump does is let in the sunlight and expose the corruption of his detractors. The stink comes from their own reaction to the sun. Then projection: "It's not me - it's him exposing me that's the problem!"
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: wmLambert on August 23, 2020, 11:41:33 AM
...A party rooted in decency and values does not embrace the anger that Mr. Trump peddles as patriotism.

This is the root of the anti-Trump push. Trump responds to anger, he doesn't create it. He is not racist, but they say he is. How would you respond? Trump constantly talks about how great the county is, and how great our future can be. Nothing dark. That darkness is entirely from the Left. Trump also does not feed into anger. He is always conciliatory, but refuses to accept pure disinformation presented as fake news. When that happens, he calls them out. The liars on the other side project that as anger. It is not. When a reporter on the Left lies repeatedly and knows he is lying, Trump will point out that reporter's personal bias and give that person a self-evident description or name that is so appropriate it sticks with the miscreant. Just desserts. Not dark. Not cruel. Just effective.

Kamala Harris says that what comes out of Trump's mouth is meant to distract. No. What she did against Kavanaugh was meant to distract. What Trump does is let in the sunlight and expose the corruption of his detractors. The stink comes from their own reaction to the sun. Then projection: "It's not me - it's him exposing me that's the problem!"
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: wmLambert on August 23, 2020, 11:50:19 AM
So, Ed Rendell, former Dem Governor and curreent head DNC says Trump is almost as old as Biden, but in most worst shape. Really? Trump's medical exams come back glowing, and Biden's are hidden. Biden's senility shows up when he loses his train of thought and can't remember things. His morality has always shown up in his consistent plagiarism.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: NobleHunter on August 23, 2020, 12:39:34 PM
Trump's morality comes up in his consistent inability to stay faithful to his wives.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: wmLambert on August 23, 2020, 07:46:51 PM
Trump's morality comes up in his consistent inability to stay faithful to his wives.

Wrong again. His former wives all support him and call him a "good man." You are exiled from the "Me Too Movement."
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: NobleHunter on August 23, 2020, 07:48:13 PM
So he didn't cheat on all of his wives? If they forgive him that speaks to their character, not his.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: yossarian22c on August 24, 2020, 09:04:51 AM
Trump's morality comes up in his consistent inability to stay faithful to his wives.

Wrong again. His former wives all support him and call him a "good man." You are exiled from the "Me Too Movement."

His first wife called him a rapist until she signed a divorce settlement and NDA. Is Trump a "good man" or is she just contractually obligated to say that?
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: msquared on August 24, 2020, 09:34:25 AM
And we all know how much Trump loves his NDA's.  I wonder if all of his kids have signed one?
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: Wayward Son on August 24, 2020, 10:40:59 AM
Trump's morality comes up in his consistent inability to stay faithful to his wives.

Wrong again. His former wives all support him and call him a "good man." You are exiled from the "Me Too Movement."

Perhaps you should review his sexual exploits, Lambert.  How Marla Maples bragged that Donald gave her "The Best Sex I Ever Had!" (https://www.newsweek.com/how-many-times-trump-cheated-wives-780550) when she was his mistress.  How he bragged to a People reporter how he had three other girlfriends a the time.  How he bragged how great his life was while he was cheating with Marla. (https://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/trump-cheating-ivana-marla-beautiful-1994-article-1.2822695) How Karen McDougal was paid $150,000 by a good friend of Trump's for a story about their affair that was never printed.  How Stormy Daniels was $130,000 to keep quiet about their sex.  How he walked into the Miss Teen America's dressing room while the children were changing.  How 19 women have accused him of sexual harassment.

Need I go on? ;)

But, I guess, since he's a man, and he's rich, and they all throw themselves at him and let you do anything, even grab them by the p**sy, it's OK.  I mean, you wouldn't mind if your minister did these things, would you?  It's only human nature.  Any guy would do it if he could.  Heck, even you would do it given the opportunity, right?

And since neither of his ex-wives complain, why should we?  It's none of our business.  He's only the President of the United States of America.  He only represents you to the world.

He's just as moral as you are, isn't he? ;)
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: Wayward Son on August 24, 2020, 10:45:22 AM
Getting back to the subject, a few GOP ex-congressmen have come out for Biden (https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/513327-jeff-flake-dozens-of-former-gop-congressman-launching-republicans-for-biden).

Sen. Jeff Flake (R-Ariz.)
Sens. John Warner (R-Va.)
Gordon Humphrey (R-N.H.)
Rep. Charlie Dent (R-Pa.)
Rep. Steve Bartlett (R-Texas)
Tom Coleman (R-Mo.)
Bob Inglis (R-S.C.)
Chris Shays (R-Conn.)
Alan Steelman (R-Texas)
Jim Walsh (R-N.Y.)

It's starting to look like the GOP consists solely of RINOs. :)
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: DonaldD on August 24, 2020, 11:40:51 PM
Former chairman of the Republican National Committee Michael Steele is joining the Lincoln Project (https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/24/politics/michael-steele-lincoln-project/index.html).


Quote
Former chairman of the Republican National Committee Michael Steele is joining the Lincoln Project, a group of Republicans working to prevent President Donald Trump's re-election.

"I get my role as a former national chairman. I get it, but I'm an American. I get my role as a former party leader. I'm still an American," Steele told Wallace, adding, "And these things matter to me more than aligning myself with a party that has clearly decided it would rather be sycophantic than principled."

Let's repeat that - the former Chairman of the RNC supports the election of Joe Biden.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: Fenring on August 25, 2020, 08:10:27 AM
Not sure why that comes as a surprise, since in 2016 the entire RNC was fighting against Trump getting elected. That anyone in the party ever supported him was only a fallback position due to lack of choice once he had won.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: DonaldD on August 25, 2020, 08:41:12 AM
There is a huge difference between opposing Trump as a candidate, opposing him getting elected during the general election, and actively supporting the opposing party's candidates in the general election.  I would argue that the number of Republicans in the latter two groups was vanishingly small in 2016.

Or can you point to other situations where so many high ranking members of one party actively campaigned for the other party's candidate?  Especially members of that party who, within the current term, had been hired by the candidate that they now oppose?
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: rightleft22 on August 25, 2020, 09:25:20 AM
Not sure why that comes as a surprise, since in 2016 the entire RNC was fighting against Trump getting elected. That anyone in the party ever supported him was only a fallback position due to lack of choice once he had won.

Begs the question of integrity.
I can't help wonder how Trump became the best the GOP could do, Trump as a Leader, and Trump as what he represents with regards to conservatism? I wonder if many of those who 'just fell in line' due to lack of choice or whatever have lost sight of the future they hope to work towards. I can't help but wonder if the GOP has lost sight of who and what they are. It is no surprise to me that something like Qanon is starting to take hold in the GOP when its leaderships act's so irresponsibly in their response to such movements.

I don't recognize this new conservatism of the GOP
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: msquared on August 25, 2020, 09:54:23 AM
Neither do I or many of my conservative relatives who are disgusted with what Trump has done to the GOP.  The Party has left me and become the Party of Trump.  I would call him the RINO now.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: TheDrake on August 25, 2020, 10:22:20 AM
Not sure why that comes as a surprise, since in 2016 the entire RNC was fighting against Trump getting elected. That anyone in the party ever supported him was only a fallback position due to lack of choice once he had won.

Except I don't remember Steele endorsing Hillary. There's definitely a change here, though it is debatable how much or how important. They mostly fell in line as soon as Trump won the nomination, not the general. Of course, I think a lot of that was due to a belief that they could control and coach him - letting him be figurehead and getting their policies enacted. Also a fear of "lib" judges.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: TheDeamon on August 25, 2020, 10:34:38 AM
Neither do I or many of my conservative relatives who are disgusted with what Trump has done to the GOP.  The Party has left me and become the Party of Trump.  I would call him the RINO now.

Eh, I'm remembering 2014 and Mitch McConnell in particular talking about destroying the Tea Party. Where even he was talking about "Scorched earth" against his own side. So in a number of respects, I'm inclined to suspect this is a continuation of a fight that has been ongoing within the GOP since 2010.... Which incidentally was when Michael Steele was party chair, and while he "naturally" backed the Tea Party back then... I doubt any of the Republicans of the time thought it was going to last as long as it did.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: rightleft22 on August 25, 2020, 10:40:59 AM
Neither do I or many of my conservative relatives who are disgusted with what Trump has done to the GOP.  The Party has left me and become the Party of Trump.  I would call him the RINO now.

Eh, I'm remembering 2014 and Mitch McConnell in particular talking about destroying the Tea Party. Where even he was talking about "Scorched earth" against his own side. So in a number of respects, I'm inclined to suspect this is a continuation of a fight that has been ongoing within the GOP since 2010.

I remember hearing something about that as well and if true I can only conclude that Mcconnell has failed and that the tea party has become even more embedded. How else could you explain tea party part 2 - Qanon?

To be fair I also don't recolonize the new far left as being liberal - The difference being the debate between the various factions within the DNC is still ongoing and visible.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: DonaldD on August 25, 2020, 10:46:15 AM
Trump's Republican/conservative bona fides:
The question is actually why more Republicans aren't yet actively campaigning against him.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: TheDeamon on August 25, 2020, 10:56:29 AM
Neither do I or many of my conservative relatives who are disgusted with what Trump has done to the GOP.  The Party has left me and become the Party of Trump.  I would call him the RINO now.

Eh, I'm remembering 2014 and Mitch McConnell in particular talking about destroying the Tea Party. Where even he was talking about "Scorched earth" against his own side. So in a number of respects, I'm inclined to suspect this is a continuation of a fight that has been ongoing within the GOP since 2010.

I remember hearing something about that as well and if true I can only conclude that Mcconnell has failed and that the tea party has become even more embedded. How else could you explain tea party part 2 - Qanon?

You should, a lot of us in 2016 said that Trump's becoming the Republican Presidential nominee in 2016 was a direct consequence of what the Republicans did in 2014, it was in essence, "the Tea Party's revenge" even as they had multiple legitimate "Tea Party candidates" in the race at the time, enough of them were simply so enraged with the GOP at that point that they threw their support behind the least politically palatable option on the table at the time--Donald Trump.

https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2014/politics/hamby-midterms/

Quote
After two straight election cycles in which Republicans fumbled winnable Senate races by nominating flawed conservative candidates, McConnell vowed early this year to beat back tea party-backed candidates and their supporters wherever they surfaced.

"I think we are going to crush them everywhere," he said in March.

The test that mattered most would take place in his own backyard.

It should also be noted that the Democrats should beware of the consequences they're bringing down upon themselves after their own actions this year. I think they're going to have a reckoning of their own with their political base in the years to come.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: yossarian22c on August 25, 2020, 11:18:30 AM
It should also be noted that the Democrats should beware of the consequences they're bringing down upon themselves after their own actions this year. I think they're going to have a reckoning of their own with their political base in the years to come.

Potentially. Depends on if they get through more voting and primary method reforms put in. Democrats are somewhat shielded from the extreme base in California with the open primary, top two general. In the most liberal districts you end up with D vs. D in the general and then the more extreme candidate loses. In other places the situation is different.

I think the QANON republican candidate in GA shows we need to be pushing for reforms that have a moderating influence on the candidates nation wide. In some ways you may not get to vote for someone who agrees completely with you but if I were in a conservative state I would rather be able to vote for Susan Collins over Ted Cruz vs just casting a vote against Cruz and having him represent me anyway. Just like conservatives in the North East would probably rather have reps like Joe Manchin instead of AOC.

I don't know if the California system is the best, but I really believe we need to look at eliminating/reducing the influence of primaries and the primary electorate. Approval voting, ranked choice voting and open primaries are all ways to reduce having the 25% of the most die hard base (those that show up at primaries for each side) dominate the political landscape for everyone.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: Wayward Son on September 03, 2020, 10:20:02 AM
I think we can add former Michigan governor Rick Snyder (https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2020/09/03/rick-snyder-why-im-voting-joe-biden-even-republican-column/5696508002/) to the list.

Quote
President Trump’s answer to people who oppose or disagree with them is to be verbally abusive. In other words, he is a bully.

A great leader treats people with respect even when they present different opinions...

In addition, President Trump lacks a moral compass. He ignores the truth.

Facts and science matter. Good decisions should be based on facts and supported by sound scientific theory whenever possible.

President Trump also has demonstrated that he does not fully appreciate public policy matters, including public health, the economy and foreign relations, nor does he seem to want to learn.

While we have had a strong economy during his term, it reminds me of the old expression that it is better to be lucky than smart. Some regulatory reforms have been helpful. But his tax reform was a failure. It didn’t have real long-term value, enriched large corporations and violated the basic principles of good tax reform to be simple, fair, and efficient. In the foreign policy area, there have been some good agreements, but overall, our nation is no longer respected as a leader on world affairs.

You know you're in trouble when your friends talk about you like this. :)
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: yossarian22c on September 03, 2020, 10:39:10 AM
You know you're in trouble when your friends talk about you like this. :)

You misspoke, Rick isn't Trump's friend. Two reasons:

1) Speaking out against Trump isn't "loyal" and that's a requirement for being near Trump.
2) But more importantly Trump doesn't have friends.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: TheDrake on September 03, 2020, 10:52:41 AM
Doesn't seem like Rick's PAC is doing anything for Biden, even though he managed to plug it in the article denouncing Trump.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: Wayward Son on September 03, 2020, 07:00:07 PM
And then we have the DHS assistant secretary of counterterrorism and threat prevention Elizabeth Neumann, a lifelong Republican who quit her position after over two years working for the Trump Administration.

Quote
Neumann saw the diffuse nature of right-wing extremist violence as a particular challenge. "It was hard for the counterterrorism community to put their finger on it, in large part because the movement is more of a movement than a group or an organization," she says.

That lack of official group cohesion reminded Neumann of the threat posed by the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria (ISIS). She watched domestic extremists use the same tactics as the terrorist group.

"They borrowed from ISIS's playbook and they learned how to radicalize people online," she says...

But unlike the urgent interagency response to ISIS, Neumann says there was no clear effort to combat violent extremists on the right.

"If you had a very clear voice at the top, from the president, from other senior leaders in the Republican Party, denouncing this and warning conservatives — warning Republicans — that these groups are trying to recruit you based on things that might sound like a typical conservative belief, but behind it is this insidious, ugly, evil thing, if we had more clear voices talking about it — it would somewhat inoculate people from that recruitment and that radicalization," she says. "But instead, we have the opposite effect. We have the president not only pretty much refusing to condemn, but throwing fuel on the fire, creating opportunities for more recruitment through his rhetoric..."

She says they had already been working on a strategy to combat domestic extremism for a year and a half before the El Paso shooting, and they presented it at the White House...

The White House seemed to support the strategy — but under one condition.

"They just asked for it to be couched in terms of 'preventing violence' and not 'domestic terrorism.' And my sense was they were doing that pragmatically," she says. "They seem to understand that for whatever reason, if we use the term 'domestic terrorism' or we talk about the white supremacist language, that seems to derail things at the White House."

When Trump finally started using the term "domestic extremism" himself in the summer of 2020, it was in reference to the violence and looting that occurred during the protests across the country against police brutality targeting Black Americans, which the president attributed to "antifa." For Neumann, this was an obvious red herring. She says that the numbers don't bear out the idea that left-wing violence is as much of a problem as right-wing violence, and arrests during the summer's protests demonstrate that.

"If you look at the people that have been arrested for that, by and large, I mean, it's the boogaloo movement or it's an association with QAnon. It's the right side of the spectrum. It is not antifa." She's unequivocal about this: "The threat of domestic terrorism is not from antifa. It is from these right-wing movements..."

She's also concerned that people who served as "guardrails" around the president have left the administration. Those "adults in the room," she says, took the heat from the White House in order to allow people like her to keep carrying out their work. This fear is what prompted her to speak publicly, while many other senior administration officials have declined to do so.

"I am really concerned that in a second term, he will not have the ability to make wise decisions because there are no officials surrounding him anymore that have the experience and the gravitas to be able to tell him, 'No, you cannot do this, this is illegal.' Or: 'If you do this, it is likely that this other nation-state will respond in a drastic way that will lead us to war.' That's what's at stake here," she says.

Interesting interview, well worth checking out.

The Administration's response?  "This sounds more like a case of this former disgruntled employee being ineffective at their job..."  Of course, what else would you expect them to say? :)
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: cherrypoptart on September 05, 2020, 11:38:11 PM
The thread title says "speak out about Trump", not "speak out against Trump", so I think this qualifies.

Trump has bin Laden's support, the support of bin Laden's niece anyway.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/osama-bin-laden-niece-claims-152632251.html

"Ms bin Ladin, who lives in Switzerland, said she’s always been “an American by heart” and would be putting her support behind Mr Trump for the 2020 presidential election.

In the interview, she called the upcoming election the most important in a generation.

“I have been a supporter of President Trump since he announced he was running in the early days in 2015. I have watched from afar and I admire this man’s resolve,” she said. “He must be reelected ... It’s vital for the future of not only America, but western civilization as a whole.”

“You look at all the terrorist attacks that have happened in Europe over the past 19 years. They have completely shaken us to the core ... [Radical Islam] has completely infiltrated our society,” Ms bin Ladin added. “In the US it’s very worrying that the left has aligned itself completely with the people who share that ideology.”

Ms bin Ladin has been an outspoken supporter of Mr Trump, at a time when the president has faced criticism from European countries."

Fascinating...
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: DonaldD on September 06, 2020, 09:47:46 AM
It's not so surprising - she had spent years supporting her mother, a Swiss national, divorcing bin Laden's half-brother. That probably gives one a pretty unique outlook on violent Islam and its relationship with the USA - so much so that she seems to be a QAnon follower.  It's almost predictable that she's not exactly rational.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: wmLambert on September 07, 2020, 03:21:04 PM
I think we can add former Michigan governor Rick Snyder (https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2020/09/03/rick-snyder-why-im-voting-joe-biden-even-republican-column/5696508002/) to the list.

Quote
President Trump’s answer to people who oppose or disagree with them is to be verbally abusive. In other words, he is a bully.

A great leader treats people with respect even when they present different opinions...

In addition, President Trump lacks a moral compass. He ignores the truth.

Facts and science matter. Good decisions should be based on facts and supported by sound scientific theory whenever possible.

President Trump also has demonstrated that he does not fully appreciate public policy matters, including public health, the economy and foreign relations, nor does he seem to want to learn.

While we have had a strong economy during his term, it reminds me of the old expression that it is better to be lucky than smart. Some regulatory reforms have been helpful. But his tax reform was a failure. It didn’t have real long-term value, enriched large corporations and violated the basic principles of good tax reform to be simple, fair, and efficient. In the foreign policy area, there have been some good agreements, but overall, our nation is no longer respected as a leader on world affairs.

You know you're in trouble when your friends talk about you like this. :)

Actually not. The downside to Trump in 2016 was his lack of history, and the fear that his long-term friendship with the Left would result in his not following his election promises. Once he proved that he was true to his pledges, his popularity was cemented in gold. Ric Snyder (my former givernor) was barely GOP and much more connected to the swamp.

Never-Trumpers, in general, are those who owe their wealth and power to managing the system. When the populism Trump espoused stopped their little money-grubbing, they would stand behind Hitler to get their power back. The real GOP does not miss them, and actually sees their distance as a plus.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: Wayward Son on September 07, 2020, 07:58:39 PM
Quote
The real GOP does not miss them, and actually sees their distance as a plus.

The question is, though, that once you've gotten rid of all these "non-real" GOP leaders and those that respect them, will you have enough of a GOP left to win the election--or an election? ;)
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: wmLambert on September 07, 2020, 09:59:14 PM
Quote
The real GOP does not miss them, and actually sees their distance as a plus.

The question is, though, that once you've gotten rid of all these "non-real" GOP leaders and those that respect them, will you have enough of a GOP left to win the election--or an election? ;)

Sure looks like it. In general, Trump supporters are solid and deep. They recognize the panic from the Never-Trumpers and Dems, who are dependent upon their penetration of the system, and that they see Trump supporters as a menace to their power. The swamp consists of both Democrats and Never-Trumpers, and they are not supporters to count on.

Who would want to? Trump's metrics before Coronavirus defined him as the most successful President of all time, right after Obama breaking every record as the vey worst in history. Those two facts are the motivators of Pelosi's and Schumer's intransigence. They see the next Trump term as the end of all their aspirations. The clock is running out and if ever the end justifies the means, it is now.

Five years from now, Trump will leave office with the judiciary firmly in Constitutional hands, and a legacy of success the Left can never rationalize away. They see the end of their party's long run of being in charge with their ability to sabotage the economy to hurt their opposition. If the educational system can be repaired from the John Dewey designed ravages, we may regain the greatness the Founders envisioned, but was taken away from us.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: yossarian22c on September 08, 2020, 08:25:57 AM
And now it's Michael Cohen.

https://www.npr.org/2020/09/07/910550523/trump-fired-a-faux-bama-michael-cohen-alleges-in-tell-all-memoir (https://www.npr.org/2020/09/07/910550523/trump-fired-a-faux-bama-michael-cohen-alleges-in-tell-all-memoir)

Quote
Over Disloyal's 400-plus pages, Cohen rips through accounts of dozens of incidents, ranging from Trump allegedly cheating mom-and-pop vendors for services rendered at Trump properties to incidents of the president making racist remarks to his own involvement in trying to make a deal for a Trump Tower in Moscow.
...
According to Cohen, Trump told his former lawyer that Black and Latino voters were "too stupid" to vote for him, and said that any country run by Black leaders was a "sh**hole." On another occasion, after the death of South African President Nelson Mandela, Cohen says that Trump told him that apartheid-era South Africa had been "beautiful," and that Mandela had "f***** the whole country up."

Cohen also goes in deep on what he describes as the president's idolization of Russian President Vladimir Putin, whom Cohen says Trump reveres because of his immense personal wealth and his immersive control of his country. "An entire society and civilization bent to the will of a single man was how Trump viewed the ideal historical form of government," Cohen writes. "With him as the man in charge, of course."
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: rightleft22 on September 08, 2020, 11:42:23 AM
Quote
Cohen rips through accounts of dozens of incidents, ranging from Trump allegedly cheating mom-and-pop vendors for services rendered at Trump properties to incidents

This was well known long before Trump decided to become a politician. For reasons I don't understand during his complain his supporters seemed to think that made him a 'good' business man at the same time arguing that they could Trust Trump to be loyal to them.  Odd contradiction in my opinion.

Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: yossarian22c on September 08, 2020, 12:00:39 PM
Quote
Cohen rips through accounts of dozens of incidents, ranging from Trump allegedly cheating mom-and-pop vendors for services rendered at Trump properties to incidents

This was well known long before Trump decided to become a politician. For reasons I don't understand during his complain his supporters seemed to think that made him a 'good' business man at the same time arguing that they could Trust Trump to be loyal to them.  Odd contradiction in my opinion.

A lot of things are known about Trump but then are denied at times. Just like the reports of Trump calling fallen or captured soldiers losers and suckers, he said pretty much the same thing about McCain during the campaign. People on this board have somehow twisted that to mean that Trump respects the military more and it makes him the greatest CIC. The cult of Trump is scary. I put odds of him winning the second term at slightly better than 538, so at about 40%. If he wins I put the odds at better than 50% he going to go Putin style and start rearranging things to hold onto power longer, past the two term limit. If he wins this time, the Republican party that hasn't already bought him completely either will or disappear. So it will be the Trump party and the opposition party, the only thing that would remain to be seen is if our institutions and rule of law can hold on for 4 more years of Trump to prevent him from becoming a Putin like ruler in America. 
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: yossarian22c on September 09, 2020, 07:54:43 AM
https://www.npr.org/2020/09/09/910992023/justice-dept-intervenes-to-take-over-trumps-defense-in-defamation-lawsuit (https://www.npr.org/2020/09/09/910992023/justice-dept-intervenes-to-take-over-trumps-defense-in-defamation-lawsuit)

Quote
The U.S. Justice Dept. Tuesday moved to assume responsibility for defending President Trump in a defamation lawsuit brought by a woman who says Trump raped her in the 1990s.

E. Jean Carroll filed suit in New York state court last year after Trump, answering reporters' questions, denied knowing her and accused her of lying.
...
In an unusual five-page filing in U.S. District Court for the Southern District of New York, the Justice Dept. argued that Trump's remarks were made in the performance of his official duties as president and that therefore government attorneys should assume Trump's defense from his private lawyers.

The filing asked the court to designate the United States, rather than Trump, as the defendant in Carroll's defamation suit and to move the case from state to federal court. Federal officials are generally immune from charges of defamation. If the DoJ's filing is successful it would effectively bring Carroll's case to an end.

Calling women liars is now part of his official duties and justice is becoming his private law firm. Nothing wrong with this at all  ::).
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: Wayward Son on September 09, 2020, 04:50:52 PM
As Electoral Vote.com quipped on September 9, 2020, under the header "The Justice Department Confirms It Is Indeed Trump's Personal Legal Team:" (https://electoral-vote.com/#item-2)

Quote
The DoJ's justification for this is that when Trump made the allegedly defamatory statements, he was acting in his official capacity as President of the United States. Riiiight. If so, that would mean "E. Jean Carroll is a liar" and "E. Jean Carroll is not Donald Trump's 'type'" are the official policy of the United States government.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: rightleft22 on September 09, 2020, 05:03:20 PM
https://www.npr.org/2020/09/09/910992023/justice-dept-intervenes-to-take-over-trumps-defense-in-defamation-lawsuit (https://www.npr.org/2020/09/09/910992023/justice-dept-intervenes-to-take-over-trumps-defense-in-defamation-lawsuit)

Quote
The U.S. Justice Dept. Tuesday moved to assume responsibility for defending President Trump in a defamation lawsuit brought by a woman who says Trump raped her in the 1990s.

E. Jean Carroll filed suit in New York state court last year after Trump, answering reporters' questions, denied knowing her and accused her of lying.
...
In an unusual five-page filing in U.S. District Court for the Southern District of New York, the Justice Dept. argued that Trump's remarks were made in the performance of his official duties as president and that therefore government attorneys should assume Trump's defense from his private lawyers.

The filing asked the court to designate the United States, rather than Trump, as the defendant in Carroll's defamation suit and to move the case from state to federal court. Federal officials are generally immune from charges of defamation. If the DoJ's filing is successful it would effectively bring Carroll's case to an end.

Calling women liars is now part of his official duties and justice is becoming his private law firm. Nothing wrong with this at all  ::).

Waiting to see how Trump followers spin this.  Will the real conservatives please stand up
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: TheDeamon on September 09, 2020, 10:30:03 PM
Waiting to see how Trump followers spin this.  Will the real conservatives please stand up

Well, if it's good enough for members of Congress in the past, it should be good enough for Trump to use as well?

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/09/08/trump-defamation-lawsuit-jean-carroll-410504

Quote
Tuohey did not elaborate, but another filing by DOJ lawyers pointed to five cases where defamation suits against federal officials have been handled as suits against the government.

“Numerous courts have recognized that elected officials act within the scope of their office or employment when speaking with the press, including with respect to personal matters, and have therefore approved the substitution of the United States in defamation actions,” the Justice Department attorneys wrote.

They cited a suit filed last year alleging that Sen. Elizabeth Warren (D-Mass.) and Rep. Debra Haaland (D-N.M.) libeled students from a Catholic high school in Kentucky who got into a confrontation with a Native American activist at the Lincoln Memorial. The Cincinnati-based 6th Circuit Court of Appeals ruled last week that a judge was correct to shut down the case.

That suit involved no allegations of personal misconduct by Warren or Haaland, but Justice Department attorneys also pointed to a 2006 D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals decision that accepted arguments from lawyers for former Rep. Cass Ballenger (R-N.C.) that a press interview he gave about his separation from his wife was within the scope of his official duties.

Pretty bad when Politico is more balanced in its reporting than NPR.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: TheDrake on September 10, 2020, 10:38:32 AM
Waiting to see how Trump followers spin this.  Will the real conservatives please stand up

Well, if it's good enough for members of Congress in the past, it should be good enough for Trump to use as well?

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/09/08/trump-defamation-lawsuit-jean-carroll-410504

Quote
Tuohey did not elaborate, but another filing by DOJ lawyers pointed to five cases where defamation suits against federal officials have been handled as suits against the government.

“Numerous courts have recognized that elected officials act within the scope of their office or employment when speaking with the press, including with respect to personal matters, and have therefore approved the substitution of the United States in defamation actions,” the Justice Department attorneys wrote.

They cited a suit filed last year alleging that Sen. Elizabeth Warren (D-Mass.) and Rep. Debra Haaland (D-N.M.) libeled students from a Catholic high school in Kentucky who got into a confrontation with a Native American activist at the Lincoln Memorial. The Cincinnati-based 6th Circuit Court of Appeals ruled last week that a judge was correct to shut down the case.

That suit involved no allegations of personal misconduct by Warren or Haaland, but Justice Department attorneys also pointed to a 2006 D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals decision that accepted arguments from lawyers for former Rep. Cass Ballenger (R-N.C.) that a press interview he gave about his separation from his wife was within the scope of his official duties.

Pretty bad when Politico is more balanced in its reporting than NPR.

Two wrongs always make a right! You want to complain about those people doing that, be my guest. I'll be happy to entertain the possibility. But there is a big difference between Warren making a political statement, and Trump making a statement about something that happened before he was ever in public office.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: yossarian22c on September 10, 2020, 11:00:29 AM
Now it's a whistle blower from DHS.

Quote
A Department of Homeland Security official said in a whistleblower complaint that the head of DHS told him to stop reporting on the Russian threat to the U.S. election because it "made President Trump look bad."

https://www.npr.org/2020/09/09/911188416/whistleblower-alleges-dhs-tried-to-alter-intelligence-to-match-trumps-claims (https://www.npr.org/2020/09/09/911188416/whistleblower-alleges-dhs-tried-to-alter-intelligence-to-match-trumps-claims)

Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: TheDeamon on September 10, 2020, 11:30:08 AM
Two wrongs always make a right! You want to complain about those people doing that, be my guest. I'll be happy to entertain the possibility. But there is a big difference between Warren making a political statement, and Trump making a statement about something that happened before he was ever in public office.

Ah, but the suit being brought against Trump involves the statement he made while in office, during a press conference as PotUS.

So there is a large helping of recursion going on in regards to that.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: DonaldD on September 10, 2020, 11:44:23 AM
former CIA Director John Brennan tweets (https://twitter.com/JohnBrennan/status/1303763999817977858):

Quote
John O. Brennan
@JohnBrennan

In his comments to Bob Woodward, Donald Trump reveals what an absolute abomination he is.

If he had a conscience or a soul, he would resign.

Tragically for us, he has neither.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: Wayward Son on September 10, 2020, 11:50:55 AM
Quote
Pretty bad when Politico is more balanced in its reporting than NPR.

Sometimes there is a fine line between official business and personal business.  I won't argue about the cases you cited, but I do ask whether you feel that this case is not over that line.

Would you have been comfortable if President Clinton had the Department of Justice defending him in the Monica Lewenski case?  The incidents for that occurred while he was in office and in the White House itself, which is arguably far more justified than Donald's case.

And if you truly believe Donald's case is far away from the line, where would you draw it?  When Donald lied to the banks (or to the IRS) about the value of his properties?  When he refused to pay contractors for work they had done for him?  Should the Trump University case have been handled by Bill Barr?  Or are you of the opinion that the Presidency is the law, and any accusations for past or present misdeeds are attacks against our country and democracy itself?

I think it is fairly clear that his conflict with E. Jean Carroll is purely a personal matter, not one that involves our country.  And he should handle it personally, not using the resources of the United States government, resources that you and I pay for.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: DonaldD on September 10, 2020, 11:57:39 AM
... and resources that E. Jean Carroll pays for as well...

Personally, I don't have a strong opinion about this case.  It is, however, just so typical that Barr, Trump's personal lawyer, would direct the justice department to defend Trump that even innocuous actions must now be second-guessed.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: TheDeamon on September 10, 2020, 12:14:56 PM
Quote
Pretty bad when Politico is more balanced in its reporting than NPR.

Sometimes there is a fine line between official business and personal business.  I won't argue about the cases you cited, but I do ask whether you feel that this case is not over that line.

I think it's tacky, in bad taste, and a long list of other things. But it is legally permissible, so completely up Trump's alley to do.

Don't like it? Get the relevant laws changed.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: rightleft22 on September 10, 2020, 12:23:03 PM
Quote
Pretty bad when Politico is more balanced in its reporting than NPR.

Sometimes there is a fine line between official business and personal business.  I won't argue about the cases you cited, but I do ask whether you feel that this case is not over that line.

I think it's tacky, in bad taste, and a long list of other things. But it is legally permissible, so completely up Trump's alley to do.

Don't like it? Get the relevant laws changed.

It smells. Using tax dollars to defend a president in a suit dealing with a issue that allegedly occurred before he was elected but because he said something about it while president can be defended by the DOJ should have the GOP up in arms. Or would have had for any other President.  Maybe not illegal but a bad precedent one with at troubling slippery slope
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: NobleHunter on September 10, 2020, 12:28:09 PM
Change the laws how? I'm not sure Congress has the power to decide was is and is not the President's business.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: LetterRip on September 10, 2020, 12:28:33 PM
I think it's tacky, in bad taste, and a long list of other things. But it is legally permissible, so completely up Trump's alley to do.

I don't think it is legally permissible.  The relevant law is only for their government speech, not private speech.  His statements as a private citizen are not to be defended by the government lawyers.

Found a good article that discusses how courts have interpreted the Westfall Act, there apparently is some precendent.

https://www.reuters.com/article/legal-us-otc-carroll/can-trump-rape-accuser-block-doj-takeover-of-defamation-suit-idUSKBN2603C3

I'm curious if the case can/will be remanded to the State Court after removal to Federal court.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: TheDeamon on September 10, 2020, 12:51:45 PM
Change the laws how? I'm not sure Congress has the power to decide was is and is not the President's business.

This is made possible by an interpretation of the Westfall Act. In that respect, they just amend the Westfall Act to better specify what circumstances can or cannot be applied with regard to the Westfall Act.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: Wayward Son on September 10, 2020, 01:45:34 PM
Quote
Don't like it? Get the relevant laws changed.

How do you do that when Trump would just veto any such law, and at least a third of the Senate are such toadies they would never disagree with him? ;)

That's why we need him voted out of office (along with as many of his toadies as we can).
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: DonaldD on September 17, 2020, 06:28:38 PM
Pence's former lead coronavirus task force aide slams Trump and endorses Biden (https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/17/politics/former-pence-aide-coronvirus-task-force-slams-trump/index.html).  Or, with your wml filter turned up to 11, "disgruntled ex employee and snowflake turns traitor."

Quote
Olivia Troye, who was a homeland security adviser to Pence and his lead staffer on the White House's coronavirus task force, charged in the two-minute video that Trump failed to protect the American public because he only cared about himself and getting reelected. Troye's criticism is particularly striking because of her role working on the coronavirus task force, which Pence leads.

"Towards the middle of February, we knew it wasn't a matter of if Covid would become a big pandemic here, it was a matter of when," said Troye, who left the White House in late July. "But the President didn't want to hear that, because his biggest concern was that we were in an election year, and how was this going to affect what he considered to be his record of success?"

Tens of thousands dead because he wanted to improve his 'look' for the election.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: DonaldD on September 17, 2020, 11:02:44 PM
Has there ever been another president with either as many indicted or convicted members of his hand picked team or as many former administration members who not only no longer support the sitting president's re-election, but who actively oppose his re-election?

The current president owns the record for both, yet his supporters still unquestioningly follow him, even though an unprecedented number of his co-workers are publicly stating that he is not just completely incapable, but also immoral, evil and unworthy of the position.  His own hires are stating that.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: Wayward Son on September 23, 2020, 11:30:47 AM
Add John McCain's widow, Cindy McCain, to the list. (https://twitter.com/cindymccain/status/1308552702134087680)

Quote
My husband John lived by a code: country first. We are Republicans, yes, but Americans foremost. There's only one candidate in this race who stands up for our values as a nation, and that is @JoeBiden. ...

Joe and I don't always agree on the issues, and I know he and John certainly had some passionate arguments, but he is a good and honest man. He will lead us with dignity.

At one time, John McCain was the Republican presidential nominee, the highest honor a party can give a member.  I'm sure it wasn't easy for his widow to endorse a Democrat for President.

OTOH, maybe it wasn't that hard. ;)
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: yossarian22c on September 24, 2020, 01:29:41 PM
https://www.npr.org/2020/09/24/916184218/nearly-500-national-security-experts-endorse-biden-for-president (https://www.npr.org/2020/09/24/916184218/nearly-500-national-security-experts-endorse-biden-for-president)

Quote
Nearly 500 national security experts – both civilians and former senior uniformed officers — have endorsed Joe Biden for president, saying the "current president" is not up to "the enormous responsibilities of his office."

Addressed to "Our Fellow Citizens," the 489 national security experts include 22 four-star officers. The letter never mentions President Trump by name.

Among those signing the letter is retired Air Force Gen. Paul Selva, who stepped down last year as vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs, the Pentagon's No. 2 officer.

Trump had a similar letter signed by about 200 military leaders last month. But none were quite as high ranking as a former vice chair of the joint chiefs under Obama.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: Wayward Son on September 24, 2020, 02:04:49 PM
The letter never mentions Trump by name, (https://www.nationalsecurityleaders4biden.com/) but it does say:

Quote
The next president will inherit a nation – and a world – in turmoil. The current President has demonstrated he is not equal to the enormous responsibilities of his office; he cannot rise to meet challenges large or small. Thanks to his disdainful attitude and his failures, our allies no longer trust or respect us, and our enemies no longer fear us. Climate change continues unabated, as does North Korea’s nuclear program. The president has ceded influence to a Russian adversary who puts bounties on the heads of American military personnel, and his trade war against China has only harmed America’s farmers and manufacturers. The next president will have to address those challenges while struggling with an economy in a deep recession and a pandemic that has already claimed more than 200,000 of our fellow citizens. America, with 4% of the world’s population suffers with 25% of the world’s COVID-19 cases. Only FDR and Abraham Lincoln came into office facing more monumental crises than the next president.
(Emphasis mine.)

Pretty strong stuff for a former Joint Chief to sign on to.  :o
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: wmLambert on September 24, 2020, 06:59:40 PM
The letter never mentions Trump by name, (https://www.nationalsecurityleaders4biden.com/) but it does say:

Quote
The next president will inherit a nation – and a world – in turmoil. The current President has demonstrated he is not equal to the enormous responsibilities of his office; he cannot rise to meet challenges large or small. Thanks to his disdainful attitude and his failures, our allies no longer trust or respect us, and our enemies no longer fear us. Climate change continues unabated, as does North Korea’s nuclear program. The president has ceded influence to a Russian adversary who puts bounties on the heads of American military personnel, and his trade war against China has only harmed America’s farmers and manufacturers. The next president will have to address those challenges while struggling with an economy in a deep recession and a pandemic that has already claimed more than 200,000 of our fellow citizens. America, with 4% of the world’s population suffers with 25% of the world’s COVID-19 cases. Only FDR and Abraham Lincoln came into office facing more monumental crises than the next president.
(Emphasis mine.)

Pretty strong stuff for a former Joint Chief to sign on to.  :o

...And everything incorrect and disinformational. The whole idea of Trump failing as President is sheer projection. It is the elites in the Swamp, including bureaucrats in uniform, who don't like the old ways getting fixed.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: Wayward Son on September 24, 2020, 07:06:35 PM
In your humble opinion.

But have you ever worked with Trump?

Have you ever been responsible for national security?

Have you ever dealt with Russia as an adversary?

Have you done any of those things in the past 3.75 years?

Assuming you haven't, what are you basing your assessment on?  What makes you think you can judge and dismiss the opinions of almost 500 service members?  What makes you think you can know, or even give an opinion on, the thought process of these service members?

Their opinions are based on experience, knowledge and service to our country.  What are your opinions based on? :)
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: wmLambert on September 24, 2020, 09:39:36 PM
In your humble opinion.
...But have you ever worked with Trump?
...Have you ever been responsible for national security?
...Have you ever dealt with Russia as an adversary?
...Have you done any of those things in the past 3.75 years?
...Assuming you haven't, what are you basing your assessment on?  What makes you think you can judge and dismiss the opinions of almost 500 service members?  What makes you think you can know, or even give an opinion on, the thought process of these service members?
...Their opinions are based on experience, knowledge and service to our country.  What are your opinions based on? :)

...Have you followed Biden in office for 47 years?
...Did idiot morons believe the lies about Trump calling military dead, losers and suckers?
...Trump is the first President since Reagan to treat Russia as an adversary.
...Have we watched Biden in the last 47 years? Everything Trump has done has been good.
...The military adores Trump. A few Swamp-bred military politicos will sign anything for a seat at the table. We can judge these few by what they have aligned themselves with in the past. There are enough malcontents in any group who can be searched out and made into something they are not. Why do you sneer at anyone holding opinions that are beyond your ability to understand? Why the rampant hypocrisy and sneering?
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: TheDeamon on September 25, 2020, 01:13:17 PM
The letter never mentions Trump by name, (https://www.nationalsecurityleaders4biden.com/) but it does say:

Quote
The next president will inherit a nation – and a world – in turmoil. The current President has demonstrated he is not equal to the enormous responsibilities of his office; he cannot rise to meet challenges large or small. Thanks to his disdainful attitude and his failures, our allies no longer trust or respect us, and our enemies no longer fear us. Climate change continues unabated, as does North Korea’s nuclear program. The president has ceded influence to a Russian adversary who puts bounties on the heads of American military personnel, and his trade war against China has only harmed America’s farmers and manufacturers. The next president will have to address those challenges while struggling with an economy in a deep recession and a pandemic that has already claimed more than 200,000 of our fellow citizens. America, with 4% of the world’s population suffers with 25% of the world’s COVID-19 cases. Only FDR and Abraham Lincoln came into office facing more monumental crises than the next president.
(Emphasis mine.)

Pretty strong stuff for a former Joint Chief to sign on to.  :o

One retired in 2012, so no first-hand experience to be had there.

The other resigned in 2017 and ran for office as a Democrat that same year, so that one can't claim to be non-partisan. Which just leaves the vice-chair of the Joint Chiefs who stepped down last year. And playing the odds, good chance that Selva was a Democrat prior to 2016. While the military likes to talk about being non-political, the advancement of Flag-level officers involves input for White House appointees, so from 2009 to 2017 there was likely a (minor) selection bias towards flag officers that agreed with the Democrat in office at the time. Much like there was one towards conservatives from 2001 to 2009, or Democrats from 1993 to 2001, or Conservatives from 1981 to 1993.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: oldbrian on September 25, 2020, 01:54:00 PM
TheDeamon:
I believe you yourself described Pres Trump as a 'raging dumpster fire'.

But every single person who speaks against him must be politically biased?  Every single one?  No room for conscience or honesty?
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: TheDeamon on September 25, 2020, 02:42:30 PM
TheDeamon:
I believe you yourself described Pres Trump as a 'raging dumpster fire'.

But every single person who speaks against him must be politically biased?  Every single one?  No room for conscience or honesty?

Dumpster Fires are dumpster fires, so long as they're left to themselves and kept away from other things, it's not a significant problem. It also should be noted that things can run on concurrent tracks. Plenty of people have personal lives that are complete and total train wrecks but their professional life is largely unaffected by it.

So just because Trump has dumpster fires burning in the first and second ring of his three ring circus doesn't mean that the third ring had nothing of value happening in it.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: DonaldD on September 25, 2020, 04:29:02 PM
Dumpster Fires are dumpster fires, so long as they're left to themselves and kept away from other things, it's not a significant problem.
It's pretty difficult to keep the president away from the presidency - unless you mean to vote him out of that position as well...
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: TheDeamon on September 25, 2020, 04:30:38 PM
Dumpster Fires are dumpster fires, so long as they're left to themselves and kept away from other things, it's not a significant problem.
It's pretty difficult to keep the president away from the presidency - unless you mean to vote him out of that position as well...

Dumpster fires are unappealing, but sometimes they're better than the alternative.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: DonaldD on September 25, 2020, 04:55:04 PM
An unprecedented number of former members of this administration disagree with you in this case.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: DonaldD on September 28, 2020, 09:51:20 AM
The New York Times has just kicked off its exposé on Trump's tax returns with the following article: The President Taxes (https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/09/27/us/donald-trump-taxes.html)

They also state they have a number of follow up articles to be released in the next several weeks.

Highlights include:
Michael Cohen can hardly contain his glee. (https://twitter.com/MichaelCohen212/status/1310346564582477824)

Quote
Everything I have stated about @potus @realDonaldTrump has been proven100% #TRUE! On page 94 of my #1 book #Disloyal @nytbestsellers_, #Trump showed me a 10 million dollar #IRS “refund” check and exclaimed, “Can you believe how *censored*ing stupid the IRS is?”...they are so stupid!”
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: TheDrake on September 28, 2020, 01:12:52 PM
And Trump supporters will admire him for being clever and sticking it to the government, especially the IRS, which is stealing everyone's money - except for the part that pays for prisons, courts, law enforcement and the military.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: NobleHunter on September 28, 2020, 01:25:37 PM
It's easy to avoid paying taxes when you're losing money hand over fist.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: TheDeamon on September 28, 2020, 03:07:37 PM
It's easy to avoid paying taxes when you're losing money hand over fist.

It's easy to avoid paying taxes when most of your income doesn't come through wages or salaries.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: NobleHunter on September 28, 2020, 03:22:15 PM
It's easy to avoid paying taxes when most of your income doesn't come through wages or salaries.

It's easy to pay lower taxes when not earning wages or a salary. Paying nothing, as Trump often did, requires either losing money or giving it away. He did not give away notable amounts of money. At least some of the assets that he "gave away" appear to have questionable value.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: TheDeamon on September 28, 2020, 05:32:53 PM
It's easy to avoid paying taxes when most of your income doesn't come through wages or salaries.

It's easy to pay lower taxes when not earning wages or a salary. Paying nothing, as Trump often did, requires either losing money or giving it away. He did not give away notable amounts of money. At least some of the assets that he "gave away" appear to have questionable value.

Or taking a lot of depreciation on assets, which would be very easy to do for a real estate firm that boasts of having "only the best"(latest) available.

But that only addresses his company, not personal income. Hard to tell what's going on with personal income with only leaked summaries of indeterminate reliability.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: DonaldD on September 28, 2020, 06:06:24 PM
If only there was a way to know the details of a president's or a candidate's tax history...
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: DonaldD on September 28, 2020, 06:22:01 PM
To put it another way - Trump personally is on the hook to pay back more than 300 million dollars in the next 4 years, to parties unknown.

That may or may not be a security issue, but it certainly begs people to question an open-ended perception of conflict of interest.

Isn't that the kind of information that the electorate really should know before handing over the keys to the country?
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: wmLambert on September 28, 2020, 07:39:21 PM
The New York Times has just kicked off its exposé on Trump's tax returns with the following article: The President Taxes (https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/09/27/us/donald-trump-taxes.html)

They also state they have a number of follow up articles to be released in the next several weeks.

Highlights include:
  • Starting in 2000, Trump paid no income taxes whatsoever in 10 of 15 years.
  • In 2016 and in 2017, Trump paid just 750$ in taxes.
  • Trump wrote off $70,000 for hair expenses during his run on the Apprentice
  • Trump is fighting the IRS, arguing that losses incurred should have led to a $73,000,000 refund...
  • Trump has $300,000,000 in loans coming due in the next 3 years...and the list goes on
Michael Cohen can hardly contain his glee. (https://twitter.com/MichaelCohen212/status/1310346564582477824)

Quote
Everything I have stated about @potus @realDonaldTrump has been proven100% #TRUE! On page 94 of my #1 book #Disloyal @nytbestsellers_, #Trump showed me a 10 million dollar #IRS “refund” check and exclaimed, “Can you believe how *censored*ing stupid the IRS is?”...they are so stupid!”

Quite a load of BS. Does anyone understand that tax loopholes were ostensibly created to benefit the country, not tax payers? For instance, When AOC lost the thousands of jobs in her district for blocking the incentives for Amazon, that was a loophole she blocked. Amazon backed away from the deal and went elsewhere.

Trump's business was put in the hands of his experienced kids. He has accepted a salary for four years, but donated all the money to charities with 100% tax write-offs. Does that make him a target?

BTW, Joe Biden was a committee leader or VP during the last 47 years passing all those loopholes unto law. So don't blame the target, blame the shooter.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: msquared on September 28, 2020, 07:46:26 PM
I am not concerned about the low level of payments the past few years.  What about the possible 79 million dollar fraudulent refund?  Or the fact that he tells us he is a great business man but has lost so much money has has not had to pay taxes for the 10 of the past 15 years?  It would be interesting to know how much he paid in those other 5 years. I know in real estate you can have years in which you have huge losses on sales of properties, but also huge gains.  He has run several casinos into bankruptcy, so his business skills can be called into question, since they customers are literally throwing money at you.

Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: msquared on September 28, 2020, 07:48:17 PM
Also, I am not bothered by the write off for the hair cut stuff.  It seems high but prices in NY are out of this world and his hair probably needs a whole lot of work. I expect that writing something like that off is fairly common in Hollywood as well.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: NobleHunter on September 28, 2020, 08:27:09 PM
I am not concerned about the low level of payments the past few years.  What about the possible 79 million dollar fraudulent refund?  Or the fact that he tells us he is a great business man but has lost so much money has has not had to pay taxes for the 10 of the past 15 years?  It would be interesting to know how much he paid in those other 5 years. I know in real estate you can have years in which you have huge losses on sales of properties, but also huge gains.  He has run several casinos into bankruptcy, so his business skills can be called into question, since they customers are literally throwing money at you.

From what I understand, his losses in business and real estate were used to zero out his profits from his the Apprentice and other forms of celebrity. He hasn't much money from his business at all.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: wmLambert on September 28, 2020, 09:58:00 PM
...From what I understand, his losses in business and real estate were used to zero out his profits from his the Apprentice and other forms of celebrity. He hasn't much money from his business at all.

Is that what you felt about Obama making a fortune from his two autobiographies that many suspect was ghost-written for him by Bill Ayres?

No, Trump is not as rich as George Soros or Bill Gates. But he has been a successful builder. That Obama/Democrat sabotage of the economy at the end of Bush 43's term is probably what ruined some of his projects and inspired him to run for office. I saw what happened in Vegas because of Schumer illegally and untruthfully posting a letter saying IndyMac had gone bankrupt (which it hadn't). It made Dubai World and other investors back out of projects which caused all the Casino Owners to stop all their projects. Tens of thousands of workers were let go, as Obama was telling people to have "Staycations" and killed tourism. McCarron Airport cut half their flights into Vegas, and no one could pay their mortgages or rent, so the real estate market tanked nationwide. I was estimating on several casino projects for Boyd Gaming and MGM, which all closed overnight. Only City Center kept building, because the CM got his investment money upfront. I had one son working at Echelon which was the main closure that burst the bubble, and one son working at City Center. What happened shouldn't have happened; Schumer's letter was the catalyst, and Obama's words killed tourism everywhere.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: TheDeamon on September 28, 2020, 10:08:44 PM
He has run several casinos into bankruptcy, so his business skills can be called into question, since they customers are literally throwing money at you.

You do realize it wasn't just his Casinos that were failing during that time frame? Casinos do fail, and more importantly, Casino operators who want to be associated with quality are more likely to shut down an operation rather than downsize/minimize the offerings within the venue. They don't want to be known as a *censored*hole operation, or have such an operation be in a position to possibly impinge on their branding elsewhere.

But yes, if you're content to run a 1 star hotel/casino operation, it's very hard to run one of those into the ground... But that isn't the Trump brand.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: DonaldD on September 28, 2020, 10:10:50 PM
Donald Trump's company pays "consulting fees" to daughter Ivanka's consulting firm (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8780973/Ivanka-Trump-appears-paid-consulting-fees-Trump-executive.html), while she was an executive in the same Trump organization, and while  managing the hotel deals for which the consulting fees were paid.

This might actually be provably fraudulent activity - there are no reasons to pay Ivanka consultation fees on a project for which she is already the managing employee within the Trump Organization.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: TheDeamon on September 28, 2020, 10:37:20 PM
Also something else potentially relevant to Trump's company and himself:
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/l/losscarryforward.asp

Quote
The Tax Cuts and Jobs Act (TCJA) removed the 2-year carryback provision, extended the 20-year carryforward provision out indefinitely, and limited carryforwards to 80% of net income in any future year.

So in 2016, 20 years previous would have been 1996, about the time Trump was having a number of his bankruptcies.

Those operating losses being reported on his taxes may very well be hold-overs from the 1990's. So while according to the Tax code, thanks to loss-carry-over, his company is losing money, it is quite possible that his business has been quite profitable for over a decade.

This also isn't to mention that If had a string of bad years in the 1990's and he was still claiming loss-carry-forward on that in say, 2008/2009, then he may have been profitable between 1999 and 2007 but his taxes would show losses due to the 1990's. 2008-2011 would still be claiming operating losses from the 1990's, and it has only been in the past few years where he has been starting to make claims against the economic crash that happened in 2008.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: yossarian22c on September 29, 2020, 01:42:12 PM
Also, I am not bothered by the write off for the hair cut stuff.  It seems high but prices in NY are out of this world and his hair probably needs a whole lot of work. I expect that writing something like that off is fairly common in Hollywood as well.

Except that they aren't.

https://www.npr.org/2020/09/28/917810562/dont-deduct-that-haircut-just-yet-tax-court-has-rejected-such-claims (https://www.npr.org/2020/09/28/917810562/dont-deduct-that-haircut-just-yet-tax-court-has-rejected-such-claims)

Quote
The U.S. Tax Court has repeatedly ruled that the costs of maintaining an appealing appearance are not deductible, even for public personalities. In a 2011 case, the court ruled against a television news anchor who wanted to claim deductions for the costs of maintaining her personal appearance.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: DonaldD on September 29, 2020, 02:06:59 PM
Donald Trump's company pays "consulting fees" to daughter Ivanka's consulting firm (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8780973/Ivanka-Trump-appears-paid-consulting-fees-Trump-executive.html), while she was an executive in the same Trump organization, and while  managing the hotel deals for which the consulting fees were paid.

This might actually be provably fraudulent activity - there are no reasons to pay Ivanka consultation fees on a project for which she is already the managing employee within the Trump Organization.
More about this: in the time frame covered by the NYT article, Trump claimed deductions on about $25,000,000 in consulting fees.  The NYT was able link this one particular claim to Ivanka because the numbers on her White House declaration matched: but it is likely that much if not most or all of that $25,000,000 in unspecified fees went to his children in order to reduce his tax burden.

Sure, $747,622 in fraudulent tax deductions is more than enough to put normal people in jail for years, but $25,000,000 might almost be enough to get even Trump and his children in trouble with the courts.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: rightleft22 on September 29, 2020, 02:50:38 PM
I don't think Trump followers or the Trump Republican party cares about Trumps taxes. Its clear that values, morality, character don't matter. And one wonders about the rule of law unless the new rule of law is whatever Trump decides it is. He is the great decider after all.

In 2008 everyone knew the Trump was in trouble and that the only thing that saved him was his Brand which is all smoke and mirrors.
We all knew that all of Trumps deals were questionable.
We all knew that he was hiding something by hiding his tax records. I would have said ashamed vice hiding but Trump does not feel shame.

The reality is that nothing Trump did or does matters to his followers and if that means undermining their own values well they never matter that much either.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: yossarian22c on September 29, 2020, 02:56:18 PM
No, Trump is not as rich as George Soros or Bill Gates. But he has been a successful builder. That Obama/Democrat sabotage of the economy at the end of Bush 43's term is probably what ruined some of his projects and inspired him to run for office. I saw what happened in Vegas because of Schumer illegally and untruthfully posting a letter saying IndyMac had gone bankrupt (which it hadn't). It made Dubai World and other investors back out of projects which caused all the Casino Owners to stop all their projects. Tens of thousands of workers were let go, as Obama was telling people to have "Staycations" and killed tourism. McCarron Airport cut half their flights into Vegas, and no one could pay their mortgages or rent, so the real estate market tanked nationwide. I was estimating on several casino projects for Boyd Gaming and MGM, which all closed overnight. Only City Center kept building, because the CM got his investment money upfront. I had one son working at Echelon which was the main closure that burst the bubble, and one son working at City Center. What happened shouldn't have happened; Schumer's letter was the catalyst, and Obama's words killed tourism everywhere.

It amazes me that you think one letter from Schumer (just a NY senator at the time) and a staycation line from Obama (senator and presidential candidate) were enough to cause a giant global financial crisis. The root of the crisis 2 year arm mortgages, negative amortizing mortgages, and massive CDS's that could magnify the impact of any default or loss. I get you've calcified that causal chain in your mind. But if a politician spouting off about trouble with some company or another was enough to not just sink that one company but the entire world economy then Trump would have caused multiple recessions already.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: TheDeamon on September 29, 2020, 03:12:15 PM
Also, I am not bothered by the write off for the hair cut stuff.  It seems high but prices in NY are out of this world and his hair probably needs a whole lot of work. I expect that writing something like that off is fairly common in Hollywood as well.

Except that they aren't.

https://www.npr.org/2020/09/28/917810562/dont-deduct-that-haircut-just-yet-tax-court-has-rejected-such-claims (https://www.npr.org/2020/09/28/917810562/dont-deduct-that-haircut-just-yet-tax-court-has-rejected-such-claims)

Quote
The U.S. Tax Court has repeatedly ruled that the costs of maintaining an appealing appearance are not deductible, even for public personalities. In a 2011 case, the court ruled against a television news anchor who wanted to claim deductions for the costs of maintaining her personal appearance.

Uh, this is going to fall under "it depends on how you categorize it" for the purpose of deduction.

Hair and makeup are acknowledged "business expenses" for Hollywood productions, which The Apprentice would fall under, and that was the thing under which those haircuts were deducted under.

Now if you're "Joe Businessman" and try to write-off that haircut you had done just before attending a board meeting.. That probably isn't to fly.

But making "hair and makeup" not a deductible expense for Hollywood? Prepare for screaming.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: DonaldD on September 29, 2020, 03:15:21 PM
But if a politician spouting off about trouble with some company or another was enough to not just sink that one company but the entire world economy then Trump would have caused multiple recessions already.
I think you misunderestimate the president: he would have caused the Sun to go nova at least once already.  And here's the kicker: Sol just doesn't have sufficient mass to go nova.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: msquared on September 29, 2020, 03:18:34 PM
From what I have read on the haircuts, these were in addition to the hair cuts he got for show, which the production company can write off, or at least the salary of the person who does the work.  This is looking more likely to be an issue for him, although on the small side.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: wmLambert on September 29, 2020, 04:27:42 PM
Quote
...The U.S. Tax Court has repeatedly ruled that the costs of maintaining an appealing appearance are not deductible, even for public personalities. In a 2011 case, the court ruled against a television news anchor who wanted to claim deductions for the costs of maintaining her personal appearance.

Very slickly put. In reality, all necessary equipment, clothes, and uniforms needed for one's work is deductible, they just have to be separate from one's personal stuff. An "appealing appearance" is not in the description, but other things are. For instance if a green room make-up artist is paid for sprucing up that news anchor, then that appealing appearance is created by the company and carried in the company books. If that make-up artist makes $70K, then I'm sure the MSM would pretend that was a tax write-off for "doing Trump's hair." No big deal.

...you think one letter from Schumer (just a NY senator at the time) and a staycation line from Obama (senator and presidential candidate) were enough to cause a giant global financial crisis. The root of the crisis 2 year arm mortgages, negative amortizing mortgages, and massive CDS's that could magnify the impact of any default or loss.

Yes. I was there dealing with the Casino owners. They had their funding pulled. The reason they were given were the Obama "Staycation" and attacks on tourism, and Schumer's letter. Your "root" of the crisis was merely the result of construction workers not having long-term employment, but well-paid wages based on today's projects. When that shuts off with no new projects in the offing, those mortgages and leases were walked away from. The market took a 50% hit. I looked at million-dollar homes on sale for half-price, with no buyers. It spread all over the nation. Sneer if you like, but Obama and Schumer owned that bubble burst.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: yossarian22c on October 01, 2020, 10:24:30 AM
https://www.npr.org/2020/09/30/918928313/trump-senior-adviser-brad-parscale-steps-away-from-campaign-after-police-inciden (https://www.npr.org/2020/09/30/918928313/trump-senior-adviser-brad-parscale-steps-away-from-campaign-after-police-inciden)

Quote
Brad Parscale, the former campaign manager and longtime digital strategist to President Trump, has stepped away from his role in the president's re-election effort, campaign communications director Tim Murtaugh confirms to NPR. Last weekend, Parscale was involved in an incident with police that saw him involuntarily hospitalized.
...
Over the weekend, Parscale was involuntarily hospitalized after his wife, Candice, called police concerned that Parscale was attempting to harm himself.

According to the police report from that incident, Candice had bruises on both arms from "a few days ago, during a physical altercation with Bradley, which she did not report."

Nothing but the "best" people around Trump.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: yossarian22c on October 01, 2020, 12:32:59 PM
We may have covered her before but this is a nice summation.
https://www.npr.org/2020/09/30/918333059/trump-often-gives-complete-opposite-of-health-experts-advice-former-staffer-says (https://www.npr.org/2020/09/30/918333059/trump-often-gives-complete-opposite-of-health-experts-advice-former-staffer-says)
Quote
"They brief him. They tell him the facts. They're telling him the truth. They're telling him things that need to be done," Troye said in an interview with NPR's Ari Shapiro. "And it is a very frustrating environment to work in, when you know that the message that is going to be relayed is counter to what you just told him."

Troye, who worked for Vice President Mike Pence for two years as a special adviser for homeland security and counterterrorism issues, says the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention often faced two challenges: coping with a massive coronavirus outbreak in the U.S., and navigating political interference as the agency sought to protect the American people.
...
Troye describes herself as a lifelong Republican, but she says she will vote for Democratic candidate Joe Biden this fall, citing what she calls a critical moment in U.S. history.

"I think it's country over party right now for me, and what I've seen in the past two years of my tenure in the White House has been upsetting," she says. "I think that we need to get to a point where we steer our country back to a sense of normalcy, a sense of who we have been in the past."

Trump, she said, "will not lead us in that direction."



How many people leaving his administration saying he isn't fit for office does it take to convince people that he isn't fit for office.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: DonaldD on October 01, 2020, 01:32:25 PM
You know the response to this charge: she's just a disgruntled never-Trumper, upset that he is draining the swamp.  Other admins didn't have to worry about this because they weren't draining the swamp, and the career criminals in the bureaucracy were kept happy and fed.

It immunizes the thinker from otherwise dealing with the critical mass of defectors.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: Aris Katsaris on October 02, 2020, 11:24:21 PM
...Did idiot morons believe the lies about Trump calling military dead, losers and suckers?

What exactly makes you think they're lies? I suppose *perhaps* they are, but what exactly makes you so sure of it? Do you think it would be against Trump's character to say such things?

Quote
...Trump is the first President since Reagan to treat Russia as an adversary.

Trump wanted to veto Montenegro's entry into NATO, a thing which Russia also dearly wanted.
Trump wanted to have Russia rejoin the G7

As far as I can remember there's not a single thing Trump has done during his entire term in office which even mildly displeased Russia.

So, what exactly do you have in mind when you say that Trump treats it as an adversary?
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: noel c. on October 03, 2020, 02:41:44 AM
Aris,

“Possession of marijuana is a felony offense, right?“

To my knowledge, “recreational” amounts are legal in most states. It is like firearms laws; check state laws carefully before going on interstate vacations.

“I mean you say ‘felons’ and some people may be thinking that ‘felons’ means murderers and rapists -- rather than guys who had weed on them.“

That is the general idea. Financial crimes might also be included.

“12% of US adults smoke marijuana. So that's at least 12% of US adults that should be disenfranchised, according to you.“

No, look into current U.S. laws, by state.

“(of course, in reality you're only really in danger of being charged with the crime of possessing marijuana if you're non-white)“

Under federal law, if you start hauling bales, or cultivating in distribution quantities, expect felony charges regardless of ethnicity.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: DonaldD on October 04, 2020, 10:58:05 PM
Walter Reed attending physician slams Trump motorcade photo op: "The irresponsibility is astounding" (https://www.cnn.com/politics/live-news/trump-covid-19-updates-sunday/h_7b959216e252d00d3ee6b306c0585a32)

Quote
A non-military attending physician at Walter Reed National Medical Center harshly criticized President Trump’s motorcade photo op as something which could endanger lives of Secret Service agents who accompanied him in his SUV.


“Every single person in the vehicle during that completely unnecessary Presidential 'drive-by' just now has to be quarantined for 14 days. They might get sick. They may die. For political theater. Commanded by Trump to put their lives at risk for theater. This is insanity,” Dr. James Phillips tweeted (https://twitter.com/DrPhillipsMD/status/1312867868028141568).

That Presidential SUV is not only bulletproof, but hermetically sealed against chemical attack. The risk of COVID19 transmission inside is as high as it gets outside of medical procedures. The irresponsibility is astounding. My thoughts are with the Secret Service forced to play.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: DonaldD on October 05, 2020, 09:07:47 AM
Secret Service agents aren't happy either:

Quote
"That should never have happened," one current Secret Service agent who works on the presidential and first family detail said after Trump's drive-by, adding that those agents who went along for the ride would now be required to quarantine.
"I mean, I wouldn't want to be around them," the agent said, expressing a view that multiple people at the Secret Service also voiced in the wake of Sunday's appearance. "The frustration with how we're treated when it comes to decisions on this illness goes back before this though. We're not disposable."

Another veteran Secret Service agent also expressed deep dismay at the Walter Reed ride, though was sympathetic for those around the President given the difficulty in pushing back on the commander-in-chief.
"You can't say no," the agent said.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: yossarian22c on October 09, 2020, 10:50:43 AM
It's the New England Journal of Medicine's turn to speak out against Trump.

Quote
The Trump administration has "taken a crisis and turned it into a tragedy" in its response to the COVID-19 pandemic, The New England Journal of Medicine says in a scathing editorial that essentially calls on American voters to throw the president out of office.

It is the first time the prestigious medical journal has taken a stance on a U.S. presidential election since it was founded in 1812.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: msquared on October 09, 2020, 10:59:03 AM
Just proves how deep the deep state goes. They will stop at nothing to get someone to bad mouth Trump. Also what do they know about science? <sarcasm>
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: TheDeamon on October 10, 2020, 02:39:22 PM
Quote
"They brief him. They tell him the facts. They're telling him the truth. They're telling him things that need to be done," Troye said in an interview with NPR's Ari Shapiro. "And it is a very frustrating environment to work in, when you know that the message that is going to be relayed is counter to what you just told him."

Troye, who worked for Vice President Mike Pence for two years as a special adviser for homeland security and counterterrorism issues, says the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention often faced two challenges: coping with a massive coronavirus outbreak in the U.S., and navigating political interference as the agency sought to protect the American people.
...
Troye describes herself as a lifelong Republican, but she says she will vote for Democratic candidate Joe Biden this fall, citing what she calls a critical moment in U.S. history.

"I think it's country over party right now for me, and what I've seen in the past two years of my tenure in the White House has been upsetting," she says. "I think that we need to get to a point where we steer our country back to a sense of normalcy, a sense of who we have been in the past."

Trump, she said, "will not lead us in that direction."

How many people leaving his administration saying he isn't fit for office does it take to convince people that he isn't fit for office.

How many times can it also be described as a difference in opinion on which things to prioritize?

Saving lives from covid, or saving lives from economic disruption as a consequence of huge segments of the economy being shutdown?

The Health Officials concerned about Covid are only part of the equation.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: DonaldD on October 10, 2020, 10:52:11 PM
Not sure how this was missed - maybe there is just such an avalanche of former Trump administration officials, Republican Governors, party heads, and Congress people speaking against Trump now that it is impossible to keep track of them all:  Tom Ridge, former PA governor and first Secretary of DHS endorses Biden; 'time to put country over party' (https://www.poconorecord.com/story/news/politics/elections/2020/09/28/tom-ridge-endorses-biden-time-to-put-country-over-party/114155308/).

Quote
Erie native Tom Ridge, a former Republican governor of Pennsylvania and first U.S. secretary of Homeland Security, plans to vote for Trump's Democratic opponent, former Vice President Joe Biden, he announced on social media Sunday morning.

This also will be the first time Ridge has ever voted Democratic in a U.S. presidential election, he told The Philadelphia Inquirer in an opinion column.

"It's time to put country over party. It's time to dismiss Donald Trump," he posted on Twitter (https://twitter.com/GovRidge/status/1310160412197953542?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1310160412197953542%7Ctwgr%5Eshare_3&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.poconorecord.com%2Fstory%2Fnews%2Fpolitics%2Felections%2F2020%2F09%2F28%2Ftom-ridge-endorses-biden-time-to-put-country-over-party%2F114155308%2F).

There has never been another president running for re-election where so many of his own party, and even his own hires, are telling the country not to vote for the leader of their own party.  At some point, it should become impossible to disbelieve all of them.

Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: cherrypoptart on October 11, 2020, 06:54:56 AM
Well the Taliban just spoke out about Trump and he got their ringing endorsement.

https://www.jpost.com/us-elections/the-taliban-officially-endorse-trumps-reelection-bid-645292

I wonder what Biden's plan on Afghanistan is. It seems like at least back in the day he and Trump agreed on more than they didn't.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/22/us/politics/trump-joe-biden-afghanistan.html

https://news.yahoo.com/trump-biden-afghanistan-policy-090007515.html

To judge from his campaign website, Biden’s approach to Afghanistan has changed little since he argued for the CT-lite option in 2009. “Biden will end the forever wars in Afghanistan and the Middle East, which have cost us untold blood and treasure,” reads the brief reference to Afghanistan on the website. “As he has long argued, Biden will bring the vast majority of our troops home from Afghanistan and narrowly focus our mission on Al-Qaeda and ISIS.”

Trump says much the same thing. “We are ending the era of endless wars,” he told cadets graduating from the U.S. Military Academy at West Point, N.Y., in June. “It is not the duty of U.S. troops to solve ancient conflicts in faraway lands that many people have never even heard of.”

It's nice when people can agree on something.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: Wayward Son on October 12, 2020, 05:26:46 PM
And now Nature magazine (https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02800-9) speaks out about how Trump has damaged science in our nation.  :o
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: DonaldD on October 15, 2020, 10:36:27 PM
Republican Senator Ben Sasse:

"I don’t think the way he has led through COVID has been reasonable, or responsible, or right.”
...
“The way [Trump] kisses dictators’ butts.  I mean, the way he ignores that the Uyghurs are in literal concentration camps in Xinjiang right now.  He hasn’t lifted a finger on behalf of the Hong Kongers;
...
It isn’t just that he fails to lead our allies, it’s that the United States now regularly sells out our allies under his leadership.”

“The way he treats women and spends like a drunken sailor”
...
“He mocks evangelicals behind closed doors. His family treats the presidency like a business opportunity."

“He’s flirted with White supremacists.”

Ouch... but tell us what you really think, Senator Sasse…

It certainly sounds like Sasse believes that Trump has become a liability to his electoral chances... could the Republicans' fear of Trump be waning?
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: DonaldD on October 15, 2020, 10:44:01 PM
To follow up on that: McConnell is denying Trump a win on relief funds prior to the election.  Sasse is suddenly pretending that deficits matter, where they haven't for the past 4 years.

It certainly sounds like the Republicans have accepted they are going to lose the presidency at least, and are now retrenching to starve the Democrats of funding for their priorities.  Don't be surprised if suddenly more and more Republicans rediscover their fiscal austerity bona fides.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: DonaldD on October 15, 2020, 11:41:07 PM
Quote
You're the president of the United States - you're not somebody's crazy uncle

Well, technically...
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: Wayward Son on October 17, 2020, 06:37:42 PM
Let's not forget 1000 former CDC officials (https://deadstate.org/over-1000-former-cdc-officials-sign-open-letter-condemning-trumps-response-to-covid/) and Rudy Giuliani's daughter Caroline (https://www.vanityfair.com/style/2020/10/rudy-giulianis-daughter-on-voting-for-biden).
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: wmLambert on October 17, 2020, 10:15:39 PM
What is said here is typical of the defeated MSM and their apologists. I like how Ted Cruz responded to Chris Cuomo's incessant non-interview insults. He said the Left was mad because Trump had broken them.

Quote
...Cuomo, whose older brother is New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo, told Cruz that it “troubles” him to “watch guys like you stand by and stroke your beard like a wise man instead of telling the president to get on it” about the novel coronavirus, which has killed more than 207,000 people in the U.S.

“Chris, how about tell your brother to get on it?” Cruz, 49, replied, referring to how Gov. Cuomo handled the virus in New York state, where more than 32,000 people have died.

Cruz also referenced the governor's controversial decision to allow some coronavirus patients to return to nursing homes, though he has insisted “there were no preventable deaths.”

“My brother will stand for his own record,” Chris, 50, shot back during Wednesday's segment. “Why don’t you talk to the president the way you talk to my brother, Ted? You afraid of him? You think he’ll smack you down at home?”

“Oh yeah, I’m terrified of the Cuomos. You guys are really tough,” Cruz said, shaking his hands in the air, apparently misunderstanding the retort.

“Not the Cuomos, I’m talking about the president,” Chris said, before bringing up how Donald Trump, 74, repeatedly insulted Cruz's family during the 2016 presidential campaign when both men were vying for the Republican nomination.

“I’m talking about the president — the one who called you a liar, the one who said your wife was ugly,” Chris told Cruz. “That guy.”

"You want to insult me. You're perfectly fine to scream and yell," Cruz said later before Chris cut him off: "Oh, but you don't?"

"I'm not yelling at you," Chris had said. "I'm raising my voice to match your own, because you want to play games and people are dying."

"You don't want to discuss the substance," Cruz said.

Go to Comcast TV and push the blue button, and say: "Rudy Giuliani's Common Sense on YouTube episode 78"

There is no Russian smear campaign against Biden, It is all documented and the Piper will get paid on this one. He is refusing to give an answer, and it will cost him. The Post released a news story and Social Media is blocking it. Interesting?
 
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: Wayward Son on October 18, 2020, 09:22:21 AM
Yeah, Chris was being unfair to Ted.  What did he expect?  The entire Republican party kowtows to Trump.  The entire party won't say a bad word about him, because they know he'll attack him and turn a mob against him.  Just look that this shameful display, where his followers chant "LOCK HER UP" about Governor Whitman (https://twitter.com/Acyn/status/1317577844835319809?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1317589850527322112%7Ctwgr%5Eshare_3%2Ccontainerclick_1&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fthehill.com%2Fhomenews%2Fcampaign%2F521563-crowd-chants-lock-her-up-about-whitmer-at-michigan-trump-rally), a woman who the Trump's own FBI says was threatened with kidnapping or worse for trying to save people's lives?  Have you ever seen a more shameful display in your life?

The entire Republican party has handed over their values, their morals, their entire ideology to his adulterer, liar, con-man and braggart.  Why would Chris expect Ted to have any more integrity than ever single Republican voter in this nation?

It certainly wasn't fair.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: TheDeamon on October 18, 2020, 10:44:31 AM
You do realize that Governor Whitman in Michigan has gone full-on Andrew Jackson at this stage? "The Court has had it's ruling, now they can try to enforce it."

I know Jackson was a Democrat and all, but he isn't exactly one most people want to see get emulated.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: DonaldD on October 19, 2020, 09:01:32 AM
Speaking of Whitmer...

Quote
You know, it's incredibly disturbing that the President of the United States, 10 days after a plot to kidnap, put me on trial and execute me, 10 days after that was uncovered, the President is at it again and inspiring and incentivizing and inciting this kind of domestic terrorism.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: wmLambert on October 19, 2020, 12:55:58 PM
Yeah, Chris was being unfair to Ted.  What did he expect?  The entire Republican party kowtows to Trump.  The entire party won't say a bad word about him, because they know he'll attack him and turn a mob against him.  Just look that this shameful display, where his followers chant "LOCK HER UP" about Governor Whitman (https://twitter.com/Acyn/status/1317577844835319809?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1317589850527322112%7Ctwgr%5Eshare_3%2Ccontainerclick_1&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fthehill.com%2Fhomenews%2Fcampaign%2F521563-crowd-chants-lock-her-up-about-whitmer-at-michigan-trump-rally), a woman who the Trump's own FBI says was threatened with kidnapping or worse for trying to save people's lives?  Have you ever seen a more shameful display in your life?

The entire Republican party has handed over their values, their morals, their entire ideology to his adulterer, liar, con-man and braggart.  Why would Chris expect Ted to have any more integrity than ever single Republican voter in this nation?

It certainly wasn't fair.

The Republican Party does not kow tow to Trump. That would be the Democrat Party that kow tows to Pelosi and Biden. Since Trump is a good, decent man that the Left has tried unsuccessfully to defame for four years, their values, morals, ideology, and integrity are in the propwer place, gthank you.

As for Whitmer, she lost the court case that said she illegally acted the Gestapo to close down Michigan the way she did. She violated the law, hence the "Lock her up!" chant. Hillary started that meme, you know, when she committed felony after felony, and the Obama Justice Department looked the other way to let her skate. Now, every time the Left commits a crime, we expect them to somehow be allowed to get away with it. We expect the same thing with Biden over the Hunter laptop. Which side are you on?
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: wmLambert on October 19, 2020, 01:31:57 PM
As for Fauci, he is right that he is not allowed total MSM access. All members of Trump's advisors and staff clear when they are speaking so as not to conflict when Trump is speaking. That is just good business practice and good common sense. Fauci has appeared everywhere and almost at anytime with no censorship. I don't think his appearances have been minimized. He is still primarily a Hillary supporter.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: TheDrake on October 19, 2020, 02:24:29 PM
You do realize that Governor Whitman in Michigan has gone full-on Andrew Jackson at this stage? "The Court has had it's ruling, now they can try to enforce it."

I know Jackson was a Democrat and all, but he isn't exactly one most people want to see get emulated.

That's not the exact quote. Quotation marks matter. It also isn't terribly clear that the quote is from Jackson and not Whitmer (which is also not Whitman, which is a former Governor of New Jersey.

As for the situation, the health department under an entirely different authority than an executive order which was the matter before the court. The statute involved in the ruling won't apply to the new rules. It may quite likely face its own entirely different legal challenges. That is quite a different situation from Jackson and Georgia's decision to ignore the court ruling.

Quote
“The department is acting under a different law, enacted in response to the Spanish flu epidemic of 1918 and meant to deal with exactly the circumstance we are facing. We are acting under a specific authority granted by the Michigan Legislature to save lives in this very circumstance of a pandemic,” Gordon said.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: Wayward Son on October 19, 2020, 04:15:01 PM
Quote
The Republican Party does not kow tow to Trump.

Really?  Why don't you quote the Republican Party platform for this year?  Come on, it won't take long.  I can summarize it in one line: "Whatever Trump wants it to be."  ;D

Isn't it amazing that the party that 25% of Americans belong to is in 100% in agreement with Trump on...everything! They don't even need to spell out what they believe anymore.  It's just Trump.  Republicans believe in Trump!  If you don't believe in Trump, you're not a Republican.  If Trump doesn't believe in white supremacy, then Republicans don't believe in it either.  If he does, then Republicans do, too.  If Trump doesn't believe the deficit is growing too large, neither does the Republican Party.  If he does believe it is, then Republicans do, too!  The Republican Party believes in evolution, just like Trump does.  It believes in supporting our troops like Trump does.  It believes in cutting Social Security and eliminating protection for pre-existing conditions just like Trump does.  Caging children and separating them from their parents is part of the Republican platform.  Protecting the environment is exactly what Trump wants.  And their plan for replacing the ACA is exactly Trump's plan! 

Tell me, Lambert, how does a party, whose members are the more intelligent then most Americans, who are more independent than most Americans, who are the more independent thinkers of the country, how does that party end up being in total lockstep with a man who can't even think of any white supremacist organizations off the top of his head after living in this country his entire life?  A man who can't remember knowing a woman he slept with and paid $130,000 to keep quiet about it?  A man who had a private investigator find proof that Obama wasn't an American citizen and then suddenly discovered he was wrong?  A man who passes on idiotic conspiracy theories?  How did this man epitomize the Republican Party?

Now tell me again how the Republican Party isn't kowtowing to Trump, unlike those horrible Democrats who kowtow to Biden.  ;D

Quote
Now, every time the Left commits a crime, we expect them to somehow be allowed to get away with it. We expect the same thing with Biden over the Hunter laptop.

I'm on the side of truth and justice.  And from what I've seen so far, "Hunter's laptop" is another Conservative lie.  Apparently, it isn't ever a good forgery. (https://eddiekrassenstein.medium.com/alleged-hunter-biden-email-from-giuliani-appears-forged-2d55b08140cc)  This is just another  faux scandal like Obama's birth certificate or the whole Benghazi B.S.  (Four years Republicans have been in control--two years in total control of the Presidency and Congress.  And in all that time they never got around to charging Hillary with any of those horrible felonies.  Why is that?  Is it because Republicans are impotent clowns who can't punish criminals?  Is it because they are so stupid that they don't know how to charge criminal with crimes?  Or is it because they never had enough evidence to actually charge anyone with anything, and they just like repeating an obvious lie that Hillary, et al, are all criminals?)(I vote for the last explanation. :) )

This I can say, though.  The Left has a better chance of being charged and convicted of crimes under a Democratic Administration than under your Republican clowns.  ;D  After all, at least Democrats have been trying to charge people for crimes!  ;D
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: wmLambert on October 19, 2020, 10:16:25 PM
On election day, you don't want to be caught sitting on your glutens.  The saying goes that this election is the most important one of your lifetime, and as is always the case, it's true.

Democrats had the chance to put forward a progressive candidate with integrity, they blew it. Maybe four more years of Trump will be what they need to get it together.

Perhaps it is not Biden who is in play, but Pelosi. Get rid of the Democrat majority in the House, with a pro-Trump leader (unlike Ryan) and Trump may create a successful nation that the Democrats can never overthrow.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: TheDeamon on October 19, 2020, 10:41:19 PM
The Corporate GOP was the biggest thing holding the Republican party back from doing anything previously, now it's Trump's mouth. But if they're given a chance, I have no doubt the Corporatists will find ways to screw things up further, considering they're still in Washington for the most part.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: DonaldD on October 20, 2020, 07:20:00 PM
Retired Navy Adm. William McRaven, the former head of US Special Operations Command who oversaw both the successful raid that killed Osama bin Laden and the capture of Saddam Hussein:

Quote
Obviously, you know, as a senior retired military officer, these are challenging times, and there’s a little bit of an unwritten rule that senior officers don’t come out and endorse a candidate.  However, I felt that the direction of the country was heading in such a bad direction that we needed new leadership and that Joe Biden will be a much, much better leader than Donald Trump.

The one thing I know about leadership, Jake, is that if you are going to lead in challenging times, you have to build alliances; you have to build coalitions; you have to have friends and allies. And we’ve got a lot of challenges ahead of us: we’ve got a rising China; we’ve got an aggressive Russia; we’ve got North Korea with ICBMs that may be nuclear-tipped soon. And of course we’ve got the second wave of the pandemic.

You cannot confront those challenges unless you have alliances.  And this president has proven that he doesn’t want alliances domestically, and he doesn’t want alliances internationally.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: TheDeamon on October 20, 2020, 07:31:25 PM
He's actually been doing a fairly decent job internationally.

As to the domestic side of things? It isn't so much that he doesn't want alliances with the Dems, it's that the Dems have been very clear they don't want to give Trump any wins to brag about unless they're able to burry it with other things in the news cycle.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: DonaldD on October 20, 2020, 08:21:38 PM
Internationally... we'll just have to agree to disagree, unless the goal is to blow up international treaties with allies, reduce the country's stature, facilitate, even encourage, Iran's nuclear ambitions not to mention that complete mess he made with China and North Korea.  Let's not even start on Russia.

His only bright spot were the two recent Israel/Arab peace deals.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: TheDeamon on October 20, 2020, 09:32:23 PM
Holding allies accountable to agreements they made previously is not "blowing up international treaties" that's pointing out the other side is not holding up their side of the deal.

The WHO is a quagmire, most of the UN in general is a quagmire, but its a reflection of the world we live in where most countries are hopelessly corrupt, self-serving, and barely even pretending to care about democratic systems.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: TheDrake on October 21, 2020, 09:59:42 AM
You can hold allies accountable without destroying the relationships with personal attacks and belligerence. As far as I can tell, the only countries with improved relationships are Israel, Brazil, UK, and Russia.

Meanwhile, not holding Saudi Arabia accountable for killing a journalist, which seems a lot more important than how much of your GDP is being spent on defense.

Interesting to call other countries self-serving when that's the definition of Trump's foreign policy - what's in it for the US?

Also interesting to say Trump isn't blowing up international treaties, considering he's withdrawn the US from multiple treaties the US made. What about holding our side of those deals up? You can say those were bad treaties and they deserved to be blown up, but they were blown up.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: oldbrian on October 21, 2020, 10:34:12 AM
Although, there is a difference between not holding to your side of the deal while staying in the agreement; and telling your partner that you want out, and won't hold to your side anymore.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: rightleft22 on October 21, 2020, 10:40:40 AM
Holding allies accountable to agreements they made previously is not "blowing up international treaties" that's pointing out the other side is not holding up their side of the deal.

The WHO is a quagmire, most of the UN in general is a quagmire, but its a reflection of the world we live in where most countries are hopelessly corrupt, self-serving, and barely even pretending to care about democratic systems.

John Oliver did a interesting piece on the the WHO. WHO has its problems but it also had done a lot of good work. And the US has us worked through the WHO to do some good work as well. It is unlikely that the US could have completed that work on its own (Trump claim) as many countries don't trust the US.

Its unfortunate that a nuanced relationship as it concerns WHO is overly simplified to all or nothing and that Trump needs something to blame for his own lack of leadership
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: DonaldD on October 25, 2020, 07:20:17 PM
It's impressive the number of editorial boards that have rarely if ever backed a candidate before, but who are now either encouraging voters to oppose Trump's re-election (I see you Science, The Lancet, and the New England Journal of Medicine) or have gone so far as to actually endorse Biden (Scientific American and Nature).

In that vein... The New Hampshire Union Leader, a conservative-leaning Newspaper that has not supported a Democratic presidential candidate in over 100 years, has come out and endorsed Joe Biden for President. (https://www.unionleader.com/opinion/editorials/our-choice-is-joe-biden/article_e2053388-cc66-59f4-9e7f-8e01a1ea11df.html?utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&utm_campaign=user-share&stream=top)
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: DonaldD on October 25, 2020, 07:57:31 PM
From the Twitter feed of the American Medical Association (https://twitter.com/AmerMedicalAssn/status/1320472544982519808):

Quote
AMA @AmerMedicalAssn

Let’s be clear, physicians are not inflating the number of #COVID19 patients. spr.ly/6008G7ex0 (https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2771761)

"At a time when physicians and other health care professionals are providing care to a record number of COVID-19 patients amidst a third wave, there is misinformation about how patients are counted.  Let’s be clear physicians are not inflating the number of COVID-19 patients.  Research published in JAMA and in CDC reports indicate the US had significantly more deaths in 2020 than in previous years (excess deaths). Physicians and patients are making remarkable sacrifices and we continue urging all to wear a mask, physical distance and wash your hands to reduce suffering, illness and death."

And by "there is misinformation", what they mean is "Trump is lying to you."
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: wmLambert on October 25, 2020, 10:07:25 PM
Talking about "lying to you," Breitbart fact-checked the Obama rally for Biden.

Quote from: Breitbart
President Barack Obama delivered a speech in Florida on behalf of Joe Biden’s presidential campaign on Saturday, in the course of which he stated at least nineteen false claims about President Donald Trump and his record.

1. “He doesn’t have a plan” for coronavirus. Obama cited the presidential debate on Thursday. However, the president did, in fact, specifically mention Operation Warp Speed, his plan to develop and distribute a coronavirus vaccine quickly.

2. Trump couldn’t answer Leslie Stahl of 60 Minutes when she asked, “What’s your priority in your second term?” In fact, Trump answered her: “The priority now is to get back to normal, get back to where we were, to have the economy rage and be great with jobs and everybody be happy. And that’s where we’re going and that’s where we’re heading.”

3. “He doesn’t even acknowledge that there’s a problem” (i.e. coronavirus).  This is obviously not true, and provably so. Trump even talked about coronavirus in his State of the Union address, which Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-CA) ripped in two.

4. Trump said “if you put some bleach in you, that might clean things up.” Trump never said that. He mentioned new, experimental technologies in UV light, and also specifically said he was not talking about putting bleach inside anyone.

5. “America created 1.5 million more jobs in the last year of the Obama-Biden administration than in the first three years of the Trump-Pence administration.” Obama seems to be saying that more jobs were created in 2016 than in 2017, 2018, and 2019 combined, which is demonstrably untrue. New revisions earlier this year indicated that slightly more jobs were created in 2016 than in any particular subsequent year. However, seasonally adjusted data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics show that more people were employed in each of the first three years of Trump’s presidency than in Obama’s last. In addition, Trump faced a different task. It is arguably easier to add jobs in the early stages of a recovery than it is to add jobs during a recovery already eight years old. The Obama-Biden recovery was the slowest since the Second World War.

6. Black unemployment went down, but “not because Donald Trump did anything.” It is possible to credit several Trump policies with lowering black unemployment, especially immigration enforcement. A 2007 paper by the National Bureau of Economic Research noted: “immigration has more far-reaching consequences than merely depressing wages and lowering employment rates of low-skilled African-American males: its effects also appear to push some would-be workers into crime and, later, into prison.” Trump’s focus on domestic manufacturing capacity also arguably played a role.

7. “The only people truly better off than they were four years ago are the billionaires who got Trump tax cuts.” A Gallup poll recently found that 56% of registered voters said they were better off than they were four years ago, which is a record high. (That’s a lot of billionaires.) In fact, a majority of Americans received a tax cut from Trump’s 2017 tax law.

8. “He barely pays income taxes.” In fact, Trump pays tens of millions of dollars in taxes, despite losses in some years.

9. Trump has “secret Chinese bank accounts.” The Trump hotel chain used a legal bank account to pay taxes in China when it made licensing deals. It is not a personal account and the account has reportedly been inactive for five years.

10. “His first year in the White House he only paid $750 in federal income tax.” Trump paid over seven million dollars in taxes in 2017, but used a tax credit from an earlier year to pay it. Also, he donated his entire salary to the government.

11. Trump has no plan “when it comes to preexisting conditions.” The president has constantly promised to provide health insurance for people with pre-existing conditions; he issued an executive order laying out his plan in September.

12. Trump “drove up costs” under Obamacare. Actually, Obamacare premiums have been falling under Trump.

13. Trump said: “We hope the Supreme Court takes your health insurance away.” Trump never said that. He said he hoped the Supreme Court would end Obamacare (“I hope that they end it”), noting his desire to replace it with a better plan.

14. Trump is “MIA” when “Russia puts bounties on the heads of our brave soldiers in Afghanistan.” The Pentagon said that there was never “corroborating evidence” of a supposed Russian program to pay bounties for killing U.S. soldiers.

15. “Joe Biden would never call the men and women of our military suckers and losers.” Neither would Trump, because it never happened. Biden did call U.S. troops “stupid bastards,” however. (He claimed that he had been joking.)

16. Trump asked if we could “nuke hurricanes.” Even Snopes.com regards this claim as “unproven.” Obama also claimed that Trump had suggested selling Puerto Rico, which even the source for that claim says was never seriously considered.

17. Trump “cannot call out or even criticize white supremacists.” This divisive, false claim is also easily disproven.

18. Trump “threatens people with jail for just criticizing him.” This does not appear to have ever happened. Trump did threaten a reporter with prison time — after he defied instructions not to photograph a classified letter from Jim Kong-un. It was the Obama administration, that tried to prosecute journalist James Risen of the New York Times, and which jailed an obscure filmmaker after it blamed an obscure anti-Islamic YouTube video for the Benghazi terror attack in September 2012.

19. The EPA is “giving polluters free reign to dump unlimited poison into our air and water.” Demonstrably untrue. Obama delivered several other attacks on members of Trump’s Cabinet in the same vein (“declared war on workers” etc.).
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: cherrypoptart on October 26, 2020, 07:51:22 PM
Just watched a movie called Steel Rain 2 which had a depiction of the President that I would classify as speaking out about Trump. It wasn't entirely flattering but perhaps it was to an extent accurate if a bit hyperbolic but it was definitely amusing. Perhaps it offers some insight into how Trump is perceived by some people internationally and in South Korea.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: wmLambert on October 26, 2020, 10:57:44 PM
Just watched a movie called Steel Rain 2 which had a depiction of the President that I would classify as speaking out about Trump. It wasn't entirely flattering but perhaps it was to an extent accurate if a bit hyperbolic but it was definitely amusing. Perhaps it offers some insight into how Trump is perceived by some people internationally and in South Korea.

The portrayal of the US President by some short actor didn't look or act at all like Trump. the beard and black hair were kind of a giveaway. But if you want a North Korean film to shape your knowledge base, then go right ahead.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: DonaldD on October 27, 2020, 08:46:00 PM
Trump appointee Ronald Sanders resigns instead of being a party to Trump's attempts to politicize the whole federal civil service.

Quote
On its surface, the President's Executive Order purports to serve a legitimate and laudable purpose ... that is, to hold career Federal employees 'more accountable' for their performance. However, it is clear that its stated purpose notwithstanding, the Executive Order is nothing more than a smokescreen for what is clearly an attempt to require the political loyalty of those who advise the President, or failing that, to enable their removal with little if any due process.

...

[The order] seeks to make loyalty to (the President) the litmus test for many thousands of career civil servants, and that is something I cannot be part of.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: kidv on October 28, 2020, 03:27:23 AM

Since Trump is a good, decent man that the Left has tried unsuccessfully to defame for four years, their values, morals, ideology, and integrity are in the propwer place, gthank you.


Mr. Lambert, if I'm not mistaken you're a functional elder in your church?  I know different branches have different adherence to biblical standards.  Does your sect view adultery as a serious transgression, or is sexual misconduct not a big deal? 

Without contradicting your support of Trump's political accomplishments, which may support your religious goals, I'm puzzled by a declaration of Trump as a good, decent man.  Most people who believe Trump's actions support their religious goals don't appear to attempt to defend Trump's personal failings as those of a righteous man.  cf. Christian Science Monitor. et. al.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: kidv on October 28, 2020, 11:13:53 AM
https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2019/december-web-only/trump-should-be-removed-from-office.html (https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2019/december-web-only/trump-should-be-removed-from-office.html)

Sorry I was thinking of Christianity Today, not Christian Science Monitor above.
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: DonaldD on November 01, 2020, 09:09:13 AM
Overheard at a Trump rally in Pennsylvania: "Say what you will about the Biden socially-distanced car rallies... at least his supporters have a ride home."
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: DonaldD on November 07, 2020, 06:19:24 PM
Yup, we read 'em all - from the Ayrshire Daily News (https://www.ayrshiredailynews.co.uk/post/south-ayrshire-golf-club-owner-loses-2020-presidential-election):

Quote
South Ayrshire Golf club owner loses 2020 presidential election

Donald Trump, a South Ayrshire golf club owner has lost the 2020 presidential election to Joe Biden, after running again to be re-elected for a second presidential term.

Gotta love the Scots.

Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: DonaldD on November 09, 2020, 10:54:25 AM
Quote
“It began, as all good 2020 capers do, with a tweet from the president of the United States. It ended with his personal lawyer in the parking lot of a landscaping company, struggling to be heard over a man in his underpants shouting about George Soros....”
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: msquared on November 09, 2020, 10:55:53 AM
Will Melania trade silence for money in the divorce?
Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: yossarian22c on November 10, 2020, 09:41:45 AM
Quote
Richard Pilger, head of the DOJ's election crimes branch, stepped down from that role in protest over Barr's memo. He announced the departure to colleagues this evening:

Title: Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
Post by: DonaldD on November 14, 2020, 06:30:13 PM
So much winning... Trump loses another case in Federal court: Federal judge says new DACA rules are invalid (https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/14/politics/federal-judge-daca-rules-chad-wolf/index.html)

Quote
Chad Wolf was not legally serving as acting Homeland Security secretary when he signed rules limiting DACA applications and renewals, and those rules are now invalid, a federal judge ruled Saturday.

Wolf in July issued a memo saying that new applications for DACA, the Obama-era program that shields certain undocumented immigrants from deportation, would not be accepted and renewals would be limited to one year instead of two amid an ongoing review.