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General Category => General Comments => Topic started by: TheDrake on July 06, 2020, 08:29:41 PM

Title: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDrake on July 06, 2020, 08:29:41 PM
I'm seeing more and more "America, love it or leave it" messages in social media. You can love your country and criticize it all at the same time. I never see liberals suggest that conservatives leave if they don't like a policy or criticize a problem. OH, you're mad at Obama? Nobody suggested those people should just leave. Why do you think there's a tendency for people with a conservative viewpoint to tell people they don't agree with to just leave? Oh, you don't like the mainstream media, well just leave then! Doesn't happen.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on July 06, 2020, 08:52:31 PM
Based on what the media is doing, we're on the express train to some kind of Civil War once the November election results come out.

It'll hopefully remain political until the Election Results are being tabulated, but the narratives on both sides are already being rolled out so they can reject the results.

The current game being played is to see who can make the best claim (in November) on controlling the levers of Federal Power, but it's largely a shell game anyway. The "longer fuse" likely exists on the right in general, but other "on the right" are probably on a MUCH shorter one, and there will be a real risk that if the Dems win, the response to those short fused clowns is going to trigger a response from the rest.

Meanwhile, if a Trump win is announced, November and December are likely to be very long months to get through. Its going to get bad, quick, and its going to likely make what's been seen to date seem tame by comparison.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: Kasandra on July 07, 2020, 06:44:03 AM
If you watch FOX almost all you hear about is left-wing violence and anarchy, never anything these days about C19, never anything about legitimate social grievances.  They are stoking fears of left-wing revolt and may indeed be hoping that they can provoke a backlash of violence and counter-revolt by what you call short- and long-fuse right-wing viewers. Last night they featured an interview with the couple in the 11,000sf mansion who threatened to shoot mostly black marchers who walked down their street.  They will become heroes on FOX, and I expect to see them on the channel frequently alongside pictures of them holding their weapons.

There are rumbles among thoughtful people from both Parties who are afraid Trump will engineer an emergency requiring him to suspend or invalidate the November election so he can stay in office indefinitely.  He'll need help from Republicans in Congress and the Supreme Court, but some fear that if they don't go along with him that he will simply ignore them.  The leaders of the military are in his pocket now, so martial law is not a far-fetched possibility.

Personally, I don't believe that will happen.  I think he'll simply try to steal the election.  It wouldn't be as much fun as shooting black people and arresting Nancy Pelosi, but it's easier.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on July 07, 2020, 08:53:38 AM
The leaders of the military are in his pocket now, so martial law is not a far-fetched possibility.
Hmmm... I think your concern is getting a little Crunch-y here...

However, I do agree that Trump is fanning the flames of civil unrest, and seems to now be dependent on breaking apart the country in the hopes of getting re-elected.  His modus operandi is pretty clearly anathema to the country's well-being at this point - I can't really see any policy benefits to anybody that outweigh his actively demonizing all people who believe that black residents of the country are getting shafted, his inability to prioritize the safety of the country over whatever his issue is with Russia, or his inability to address threats to USA citizens, be it COVID-19, natural disasters, or really anything, where acknowledging the existence of the threat would make him somehow look weak.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: rightleft22 on July 07, 2020, 10:29:13 AM
I'm seeing more and more "America, love it or leave it" messages in social media. You can love your country and criticize it all at the same time. I never see liberals suggest that conservatives leave if they don't like a policy or criticize a problem. OH, you're mad at Obama? Nobody suggested those people should just leave. Why do you think there's a tendency for people with a conservative viewpoint to tell people they don't agree with to just leave? Oh, you don't like the mainstream media, well just leave then! Doesn't happen.

In general the reasons are within the definition of the labels of liberal and conservative. Conservatism a  commitment to traditional values and ideas with opposition to change or innovation. = want to change you don't belong.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: rightleft22 on July 07, 2020, 10:52:47 AM
Quote
In general the reasons are within the definition of the labels of liberal and conservative. Conservatism a  commitment to traditional values and ideas with opposition to change or innovation. = want to change you don't belong.

That said when people take the time to detach from such labels as being 'all or nothing' 'either or' they might see that they hold views some of which are conservative and some of which are liberal and most somewhere in between. Its the politicization and attachment of identity to one or two extreme views that creates the problems.

Really we are all quite stupid as I'm sure we will make the same mistakes made through out history and cut of our nose to spite our face.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on July 07, 2020, 12:59:40 PM
If you watch FOX almost all you hear about is left-wing violence and anarchy, never anything these days about C19, never anything about legitimate social grievances.  They are stoking fears of left-wing revolt and may indeed be hoping that they can provoke a backlash of violence and counter-revolt by what you call short- and long-fuse right-wing viewers.

Whether or not you agree with the "AntiFa" label being applied to the communist agitators who are openly operating all of this chaos, like the guy ranting about how the revolution is coming in DC. There clearly are mobilized pro-Communism groups actively working to carry out the work of destabilizing the country. Thankfully they're largely restricted to a handful of cities(chiefly Portland), but they're out there. And as a reminder, AntiFa historically has been the militant wing of the Communist Party. AntiFa in 1932 quite literally was the militant wing of the German Communist Party, of course, they weren't just Anti-Fascist, they were also anti-liberal. And there is rhetoric coming from members of their modern American counterpart which reflects that. (And ignores the matter of the European version of AntiFa that resumed operations in the 1950's and is still around)

The communists are out and about, the Liberal leaning media is stupidly going with "the enemy of my enemy(Trump) is my friend" for now and are likely to get a very nasty shock in the next few months. They don't want Biden to win, they want "the people's revolution," and they know a Trump victory is the best way to trigger one. Expect a concerted effort to raise up a third party candidate to siphon votes away from Biden to help Trump win to start "soon."

AntiFa in Portland is already encouraging people to vote Green instead of Democrat.

But by and large, I expect things are intended to be kept at a simmer until the November election is held. Although people are really good about running things off the rails, so things could get crazy well before then. Or as the military often says "No plan survives contact with the enemy."

The issue with this cycle is it is horribly broken in many ways, the major media outlets have completely lost their credibility, and don't even bother to do their properly. Rather than actually doing the research off primary sources they're often scribbling together reports based on 2nd, 3rd and even 4th hand reports and running a story to fit their favored narrative.

The Democrats are desperately trying to curry favor with the extreme left wing(which is no friend to them) in order to ensure they have turnout to win the election. While the Republican/Trump block is pretty solidly set at this point, if they're pro-Trump now, they're unlikely to budge at this point. Which just leaves a battle over the middle where a lot of people have to be utterly horrified at the choices being offered to them.

The "Easy call" is things go insane should Trump with the Electoral College again.

The more difficult call is what happens should the Democrats win, but that's one where they're currently making deals with the devil, and a consequence of that is they're likely to declare "a mandate for action" (Biden is now promising "Transformation") and doing things (to appease their extreme left-wing supporters) which is likely to move Republican Controlled states into essentially open rebellion against the new Federal Laws the Democrats try to enact, and we devolve into a very likely literal civil war 2.0 as state governments get directly involved in things.

Although it should be noted that certain state governments under a "Trump wins" scenario could go off the rails as well, California being the prime suspect.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: NobleHunter on July 07, 2020, 01:23:01 PM
I think you'll find that a President who presided over widespread rioting and a plague and did precious little to stop either is going to fare poorly in an election.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on July 07, 2020, 01:42:12 PM
Whether or not you agree with the "AntiFa" label being applied to the communist agitators who are openly operating all of this chaos
Really?  You believe not just some, or even much, nor even most, but "all" of this chaos is being perpetrated by "communist agitators", as opposed to, say, tens if not hundreds of thousands of black people who have had enough? You are still at the point of not believing black people when they tell you this explicitly, loudly and continuously?  I guess that makes it easier to ignore...
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on July 07, 2020, 01:45:29 PM
Whether or not you agree with the "AntiFa" label being applied to the communist agitators who are openly operating all of this chaos
Really?  You believe not just some, or even much, nor even most, but "all" of this chaos is being perpetrated by "communist agitators", as opposed to, say, tens if not hundreds of thousands of black people who have had enough? You are still at the point of not believing black people when they tell you this explicitly, loudly and continuously?  I guess that makes it easier to ignore...

Typo. should be "in all of this chaos"
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: rightleft22 on July 07, 2020, 02:13:40 PM
I think you'll find that a President who presided over widespread rioting and a plague and did precious little to stop either is going to fare poorly in an election.

I'm not so sure. If the death rate doesn't rise with the increase in cases of covid-19 he might wiggle his way out of his poor leadership (it wasn't leadership that many who voted for him and continue to support him care about) 
I might have added hospital being overwhelmed as being a determining factor but I don't thing Trumps core followers will care about that... unless at a individual level they are personally impacted
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: NobleHunter on July 07, 2020, 03:05:57 PM
I think the non-fatal effects of COVID will be pretty evident by November. It's not just fatalities but the other permanent consequences of being sick. I have faith the electorate will see the magnitude of Trump's failures and reject him.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: Kasandra on July 07, 2020, 03:24:55 PM
I think the non-fatal effects of COVID will be pretty evident by November. It's not just fatalities but the other permanent consequences of being sick. I have faith the electorate will see the magnitude of Trump's failures and reject him.

Not only the immediate and direct effects of the disease, but the economic malaise and the knock-in effects from the general anxiety of the population.  Some will look up and out beyond the US borders and will see how differently other countries have managed the pandemic.  There's every reason to expect that the US will have one of the highest, if not the highest, impact of any developed country in the world.  With about 85,000 additional deaths directly attributed to C19, the US will likely climb past 5 other countries to have the second highest death rate of any country in the world.  That simple statistic doesn't include the vast number of excess deaths that have already occurred here and the many thousands more that will happen by then.  It also doesn't include the long-term health impairments of people who recover from the disease, or the continuing severe economic impact all of us will suffer.

Gee, I'm not on message...nothing to see here...
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on July 07, 2020, 03:52:59 PM
I think you'll find that a President who presided over widespread rioting and a plague and did precious little to stop either is going to fare poorly in an election.

I'm not so sure. If the death rate doesn't rise with the increase in cases of covid-19 he might wiggle his way out of his poor leadership (it wasn't leadership that many who voted for him and continue to support him care about) 
I might have added hospital being overwhelmed as being a determining factor but I don't thing Trumps core followers will care about that... unless at a individual level they are personally impacted

Even hospitals being overwhelmed may not be too much of an issue as long the Federal Government has resources in place before people die to resource/bed shortages. "ICU's are full" hasn't been that bar since New York.

There also is the aspect where for a lot of Republicans and Libertarians even absent Trump support or lack thereof, will generally view Covid19 handling as primarily a state issue and in that respect, mishandling claims regarding reopening go against the various state governments, not Trump. Trump only factors in once the state is no longer to handle the situation and does or does not get federal medical help at that point.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on July 07, 2020, 04:01:08 PM
There are two aspects of the pandemic handling - regulations and communications.

Nobody expects Trump to have regulated the country out of the pandemic.  What he has done is communicated the country into a much worse situation, and Republicans and libertarians are not so dumb as to be unaware of that.  Similarly, they can see him lighting the fires of white supremacy and racism, and neither group is inherently supportive of the country's history of slavery or racism.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: Kasandra on July 07, 2020, 04:13:04 PM
I think you'll find that a President who presided over widespread rioting and a plague and did precious little to stop either is going to fare poorly in an election.

I'm not so sure. If the death rate doesn't rise with the increase in cases of covid-19 he might wiggle his way out of his poor leadership (it wasn't leadership that many who voted for him and continue to support him care about) 
I might have added hospital being overwhelmed as being a determining factor but I don't thing Trumps core followers will care about that... unless at a individual level they are personally impacted

Even hospitals being overwhelmed may not be too much of an issue as long the Federal Government has resources in place before people die to resource/bed shortages. "ICU's are full" hasn't been that bar since New York.

There also is the aspect where for a lot of Republicans and Libertarians even absent Trump support or lack thereof, will generally view Covid19 handling as primarily a state issue and in that respect, mishandling claims regarding reopening go against the various state governments, not Trump. Trump only factors in once the state is no longer to handle the situation and does or does not get federal medical help at that point.

If it's going to be a state-by-state issue he can kiss Texas and Florida goodbye.  Houston and the hospitals of the Rio Grande valley are at capacity and the latter may need to send new patients elsewhere.  Miami Dade is getting close to hospital capacity and both states are rolling back some of their "freedoms".  It's only going to get worse there and in many other states.  Texas is teetering on the blue edge, and if the coming wave hits "The Villages" in Florida hard, Republicans may lose the state for a generation. The combination of the suffering in those two states might cost them the White House for decades.  Unless, of course, Trump refuses to concede the election.

Have you noticed that almost all of the active threads on Ornery have collapsed into trying to figure out how giant the cluster*censored* for Trump has become?
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on July 07, 2020, 04:13:27 PM
Nobody expects Trump to have regulated the country out of the pandemic.  What he has done is communicated the country into a much worse situation, and Republicans and libertarians are not so dumb as to be unaware of that.  Similarly, they can see him lighting the fires of white supremacy and racism, and neither group is inherently supportive of the country's history of slavery or racism.

Problem is, you run into the BLM protests. Trump bloviating around wasn't the problem. Even the New York Times is starting to realize that was a major mistake.

The problem we have was public health officials condemning the reopening protests, then turning around to actively encourage participation in BLM protests, while simultaneously discouraging other activities.

I had one friend a month ago who noticed that in his areas gatherings of more than 10 people were not allowed, but protests of up to 100 people were. He promptly announced he was having a protest in his back yard and asked people to bring food.

Or more recently in Oregon there was a recent meme, which sadly I didn't research further at the time to verify, but it holds with what was being reported that day nationwide.

Their City Twitter feed announces a BLM protest to happen on the 4th of July and how they expect over 1,000 people to attend the protest.

A few hours later, the City Twitter account announces 4th of July Celebratory events have been canceled due to Covid19 and the danger of large gatherings.

The BLM Protest still happened though.

BLM is Magic, it somehow protects people from getting Covid19, but everything else involving large groups of people is dangerous and to be avoided.

And yet people wonder why others have decided it's all bulls*** now?
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: Kasandra on July 07, 2020, 04:16:09 PM
And weirdly, there is no evidence that the protests have caused a spike in cases anywhere, and certainly not as big an uptick as all of the beach and house parties, weddings and church services have.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on July 07, 2020, 04:18:29 PM
Is there any evidence that the protests caused a significant number of infections, significant as compared to all the other behaviours leading to the infection rates?  We should see huge spikes in the areas where the protests happened, and ongoing reductions in infection rates elsewhere.

Is that what we see?
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on July 07, 2020, 04:27:30 PM
For instance
Huge protests in those states, yet no increase in cases coincident with the protests... hmmm...
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on July 07, 2020, 04:44:40 PM
For instance
  • Illinois - lots of large protests.  Continuing decrease in cases.
  • Minnesota - new cases dropped to a plateau, then remained steady
  • New York - steady decrease
  • Pennsylvania - steady decrease, to a base level
Huge protests in those states, yet no increase in cases coincident with the protests... hmmm...

LA is seeing a huge spike in cases, and it's had some truly massive protests, and riots as well.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: rightleft22 on July 07, 2020, 04:59:20 PM
For instance
  • Illinois - lots of large protests.  Continuing decrease in cases.
  • Minnesota - new cases dropped to a plateau, then remained steady
  • New York - steady decrease
  • Pennsylvania - steady decrease, to a base level
Huge protests in those states, yet no increase in cases coincident with the protests... hmmm...

I noted that in much of the footage of the protests masks were prevent where as in the partying gatherings much more indoor activity and face to face interactions. 

My observations is that its close interactions + indoors = higher risk of infection.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: Kasandra on July 07, 2020, 05:00:35 PM
LA began reimposing restrictions before the protests even began.  And you have a big tell, where you like to insert "riots" into every discussion, as if rioting and violent protests are the root of every evil you see.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on July 07, 2020, 05:01:12 PM
LA is seeing a huge spike in cases, and it's had some truly massive protests, and riots as well.
So - some states with massive protests saw no spike in cases, while other states with massive protests saw a spike in cases.

What does that suggest to you?
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on July 07, 2020, 05:21:10 PM
If it helps, you can see a graph of California's new daily cases here (https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/usa/california/).

California's new case count had been rising steadily since March.  There is no sudden spike of cases 2 or 3 weeks after the protests began.  In fact, the new case graph how's a very steady upwards trend, with a slight increase in the new daily case rate about 4 weeks after the protests began, and that increase in rate was not dramatic.  So unless there was time travel involved, something else was going on in California.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on July 07, 2020, 07:50:22 PM
Uh, what? (Comparison, Fox News to PBS on the same rally event)

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/ilhan-omar-dismantle-americas-economy-political-system-oppression

Quote
The Minnesota Democrat said Tuesday that most conversations around police brutality and racial injustice do not go far enough in their call for change.

“We can’t stop at criminal justice reform or policing reform,” she said during an outdoor press conference. “We are not merely fighting to tear down the systems of oppression in the criminal justice system. We are fighting to tear down systems of oppression that exist in housing, in education, in health care, in employment, [and] in the air we breathe.”

Omar said it was time to “guarantee homes for all” due to racial disparities in homeownership. She said that homeownership rates are nearly twice as high for White families as they are for Black families.

She also promoted the Green New Deal “because we know that environmental racism is real.”

“As long as our economy and political systems prioritize profit without considering who is profiting, who is being shut out, we will perpetuate this inequality,” the progressive Squad member continued. “So we cannot stop at [the] criminal justice system. We must begin the work of dismantling the whole system of oppression wherever we find it.”

So what did PBS have to say about the press conference? They report it happened, and helpfully provide the 42 minute long video(the Fox News quotes happen in the first 5 minutes), and then report on something else instead:

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/watch-rep-ilhan-omar-holds-news-conference-on-systemic-racism-with-minnesota-leaders
Quote
Minnesota Rep. Ilhan Omar held a news conference on systemic racism, alongside other state leaders as Minneapolis continues to be a flashpoint in the nation’s reckoning on race.
Okay, reporting on that conference is done, now on to what the reporter wants to speak about instead:
Quote
Last month, several Minneapolis police officers resigned over a perceived lack of support during the height of the George Floyd protests that followed Floyd’s killing by Minneapolis police officers on May 25. The officers cited Mayor Jacob Frey’s decision to abandon the Third Precinct station on May 28. The building was set on fire by demonstrators that night.

The Minnesota Department of Human Rights launched a civil rights investigation into the city’s police department last month and the FBI is investigating whether police willfully deprived Floyd of his civil rights.

The department has faced decades of allegations of brutality and other discrimination against Black Americans and other minorities. A majority of City Council members support dismantling or defunding the department.

Omar told CNN’s “State of the Union” last month that the Minneapolis Police Department is suffering a crisis of credibility and needs to be dismantled. In the recent news conference, she expanded her criticism to the wider systemic racism rooted in American culture.

“We are not merely fighting to tear down the systems of oppression in the criminal justice system,” she said. “We are fighting to tear down systems of oppression that exist in housing, in education, in healthcare, in employment, in the air we breath.”
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDrake on July 07, 2020, 07:59:34 PM
Great news about the protests, I guess that means we can start opening all the outdoor ballparks then.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on July 07, 2020, 08:08:29 PM
TheDaemon, PBS quoted some of the very same bits that Fox quoted, although both provided different 'colour commentary', not surprisingly focusing on different context.  What exactly is your point? 
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on July 08, 2020, 01:05:03 AM
TheDaemon, PBS quoted some of the very same bits that Fox quoted, although both provided different 'colour commentary', not surprisingly focusing on different context.  What exactly is your point?

What part of:

Quote
Omar told CNN’s “State of the Union” last month that the Minneapolis Police Department is suffering a crisis of credibility and needs to be dismantled. In the recent news conference, she expanded her criticism to the wider systemic racism rooted in American culture.

“We are not merely fighting to tear down the systems of oppression in the criminal justice system,” she said. “We are fighting to tear down systems of oppression that exist in housing, in education, in healthcare, in employment, in the air we breath.”

Is a quote from her recent press conference? I agree the press conference echoed the earlier statement. But the reporter only said she held a press conference(one sentence allocated to that), then gave background from a month ago, and then gave a quote from a much earlier CNN interview.

Someone was being very lazy.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on July 08, 2020, 06:35:24 AM
You are misreading.

The context provided was Here, I'll highlight the important bits:

Uh, what? (Comparison, Fox News to PBS on the same rally event)

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/ilhan-omar-dismantle-americas-economy-political-system-oppression

Quote
The Minnesota Democrat said Tuesday that most conversations around police brutality and racial injustice do not go far enough in their call for change.

“We can’t stop at criminal justice reform or policing reform,” she said during an outdoor press conference. “We are not merely fighting to tear down the systems of oppression in the criminal justice system. We are fighting to tear down systems of oppression that exist in housing, in education, in health care, in employment, [and] in the air we breathe.”

Omar said it was time to “guarantee homes for all” due to racial disparities in homeownership. She said that homeownership rates are nearly twice as high for White families as they are for Black families.

She also promoted the Green New Deal “because we know that environmental racism is real.”

“As long as our economy and political systems prioritize profit without considering who is profiting, who is being shut out, we will perpetuate this inequality,” the progressive Squad member continued. “So we cannot stop at [the] criminal justice system. We must begin the work of dismantling the whole system of oppression wherever we find it.”

So what did PBS have to say about the press conference? They report it happened, and helpfully provide the 42 minute long video(the Fox News quotes happen in the first 5 minutes), and then report on something else instead:

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/watch-rep-ilhan-omar-holds-news-conference-on-systemic-racism-with-minnesota-leaders
Quote
Minnesota Rep. Ilhan Omar held a news conference on systemic racism, alongside other state leaders as Minneapolis continues to be a flashpoint in the nation’s reckoning on race.
Okay, reporting on that conference is done, now on to what the reporter wants to speak about instead:
Quote
Last month, several Minneapolis police officers resigned over a perceived lack of support during the height of the George Floyd protests that followed Floyd’s killing by Minneapolis police officers on May 25. The officers cited Mayor Jacob Frey’s decision to abandon the Third Precinct station on May 28. The building was set on fire by demonstrators that night.

The Minnesota Department of Human Rights launched a civil rights investigation into the city’s police department last month and the FBI is investigating whether police willfully deprived Floyd of his civil rights.

The department has faced decades of allegations of brutality and other discrimination against Black Americans and other minorities. A majority of City Council members support dismantling or defunding the department.

Omar told CNN’s “State of the Union” last month that the Minneapolis Police Department is suffering a crisis of credibility and needs to be dismantled. In the recent news conference, she expanded her criticism to the wider systemic racism rooted in American culture.

“We are not merely fighting to tear down the systems of oppression in the criminal justice system,” she said. “We are fighting to tear down systems of oppression that exist in housing, in education, in healthcare, in employment, in the air we breath.”

So, no - the quote is identical, and clearly labelled as coming from the recent press conference, not from CNN.

Sometimes (often) we see what we expect to see.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: Fenring on July 08, 2020, 11:04:24 AM
Have you noticed that almost all of the active threads on Ornery have collapsed into trying to figure out how giant the cluster*censored* for Trump has become?

Funny you should say that, as this is exactly the case also for MSM networks since 2016! Trump Trump Trump 24/7, and if another story rises cover it briefly then back to Trump. It's no coincidence.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: Fenring on July 08, 2020, 11:16:40 AM
Is there any evidence that the protests caused a significant number of infections, significant as compared to all the other behaviours leading to the infection rates?  We should see huge spikes in the areas where the protests happened, and ongoing reductions in infection rates elsewhere.

Is that what we see?

The issue isn't just whether the physical event of the protests caused a spike, although even if that was an issue it's a major blow to morale, because many people were being prevented from holding outdoor gatherings prior to that. How convenient that a post hoc justification of "oh outside is ok" came after they knew the protests would happen regardless of what they said. Heaven forbid public figures on the left should say of others on the left "we agree with their cause but these protest gathering are wrong". And I know why not - they would be torn to pieces.

But aside from this particular morale problem, there is a worse one, and one that stands aside from whether the protests directly caused an outbreak: the caused the entire public to lose faith in social distancing, which long-term may slow down progress or makes things worse, albeit not as a sudden spike. Don't you realize that the ability to convince people to stay at home and not go out was tenuous even at its best? Hearing about a mass protest crushes the ability of many people to take social distancing and isolation seriously. In my city the entire trend of social distancing was utterly shattered immediately after the start of the protests. One day people would walk on to the street to avoid walking near you (9/10 of them would, 1/10 never gave a crap), and then the next day, post-protest, literally no one is doing this anymore and the sentiment was "uh, I guess we're not doing this any more."

It's not just as simple as looking for a spike 2 weeks later. And if social distancing breaks down and that doesn't create a spike (as you're trying to show), then that serves as a significant refutation of the value of social distancing, numerically speaking, which further corrodes morale. And I'm not arguing that would shouldn't social distance (we should), but rather that it will cause people to think it's useless.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on July 08, 2020, 11:25:54 AM
How convenient that a post hoc justification of "oh outside is ok" came after they knew the protests would happen regardless of what they said.
People keep saying things like this, but it seems a pretty basic misunderstanding: the protests were definitely not a good thing for the spread of the virus, and almost certainly led to increases in cases.  But pretending that the large increases in daily new cases (much of which predated the protests) were primarily, or even substantially, a result of the protests as opposed to other dynamics is demonstrably wrong.  Pointing out this incorrect hypothesis should not be mistaken for a justification for the protests.  That's a complete straw man argument, at best; at worst, it's dishonest.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: Fenring on July 08, 2020, 11:32:30 AM
That's a complete straw man argument, at best; at worst, it's dishonest.

I would say that the straw man is to claim that what I just argued is that all new recorded cases are a result of the protests. What I argued is that in subtle ways when you corrode morale and belief in the procedures it leads to slackening of safety protocols, and that you will not be able to track this back to the protests in terms of an immediate spike. The effects may not have even been fully felt yet, and it is too chaotic a system to ever track it. All we have is common sense and what we see with our own eyes, and I *know* that universal slackening happened as a result of the protests. How this directly affects numbers we cannot be certain.

But I find it interesting that you quoted my pointing out of hypocrisy to then suggest that really there wasn't a serious spike. What on earth do those have to do with each other? That it was rank hypocrisy seems to me so self-evident that it's particularly striking to see anyone defending it. We both know that there was no general announcement or consensus that outdoor gathering was probably low-risk until after the protests, at which time it became politically expedient to say so rather than to have to put your head in the noose and announce that you had a problem with the protests. And I don't want to be funny about this - the people supporting the protest on social media would have utterly disowned anyone who had spoken against it on any grounds (including safety concerns).
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on July 08, 2020, 11:39:11 AM
If the "post-hoc" argument had nothing to do with the post of mine that you quoted, then you shouldn't have quoted those words from my post.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: Fenring on July 08, 2020, 11:59:39 AM
If the "post-hoc" argument had nothing to do with the post of mine that you quoted, then you shouldn't have quoted those words from my post.

I quoted that portion of your text, which I'll repeat here just to avoid potential confusion -

Quote
Is there any evidence that the protests caused a significant number of infections, significant as compared to all the other behaviours leading to the infection rates?  We should see huge spikes in the areas where the protests happened, and ongoing reductions in infection rates elsewhere.

Is that what we see?

- because it very much carries the connotation that the protests weren't really a significant health concern, despite some people trying to make it look like one. My point was that you don't know yet, and probably never will whether the protests caused a significant health problem long-term. All you have been looking for (reasonably, in a way) is the short-term or 2-week fallout, but that's only half the picture. The other half is how much people are going to take safety precautions seriously going forward, and for how long, until they get fed up. Even if the protests weren't the last straw they certainly added to the load. For many people, though, I actually do think they were the last straw, but for others the last straw could be something else later on. And there will be a last straw if people don't really believe their sacrifices are doing anything or being respected by their fellow citizens. The protests very much showed that health precautions are important unless something we care about more shows up. That's a super bad message to send. And you can't measure that now because it's psychological, but at the same time denying that this is relevant is foolish.

I find it interesting that I'm taking a position of pro-precautions and that people aren't taking it seriously enough, but because it might have the tinge of an anti-left position you're trying to refute my position on it anyhow. After all of your posts on global warming and the pandemic, I would have thought you'd be first in line to support any position of taking these public concerns seriously. I can't help but feel that somehow the protest movement is 'untouchable' and that it is making you reverse your usual position because it's higher on the priority list. If that is so (and it's not wrong, per se, to have priorities) then it only validates my point: people see someone else placing something higher than social distancing, and now the conclusion is obvious: when something important to me comes up I'll place that as a higher priority too.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: rightleft22 on July 08, 2020, 12:10:14 PM
Quote
because it very much carries the connotation that the protests weren't really a significant health concern, despite some people trying to make it look like one

I didn't read "Is that what we see?" as suggesting the connotation you noted. Maybe I'm missing something.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: Fenring on July 08, 2020, 12:13:48 PM
Quote
because it very much carries the connotation that the protests weren't really a significant health concern, despite some people trying to make it look like one

I didn't read "Is that what we see?" as suggesting the connotation you noted. Maybe I'm missing something.

Well it's the general tenor of an answer sounding like pushback on criticism, rather than something like "yes I am also worried that the protests were a problem but it's hard to know." Instead we get "have you seen any sign they were a problem?" which is not outright denial but a wishy washy way of saying that if no one can prove it was a problem then nothing to see here.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: wmLambert on July 08, 2020, 12:58:36 PM
...I do agree that Trump is fanning the flames of civil unrest, and seems to now be dependent on breaking apart the country in the hopes of getting re-elected.

You must not be following the news at all. Trump is the unifier. The old Obama regime and current Leftists and MSM are the dividers. It was Trump who corrected years of economic pain to minorities and actually did what he promised to help them. As the Leftists try to break apart the country, it is also them who act like Trump is the one doing it. Don't be part of the hypocrisy.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: rightleft22 on July 08, 2020, 01:00:29 PM
"Is this what we see" and "have you seen any sign they were a problem?" are different questions.

Any answer to the question on the impact of the protests on the infection rate would require access to contact tracing data. I suspect the US infection rate is making contact tracing difficult to determine the source of flareup's so we might not ever know.

Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: rightleft22 on July 08, 2020, 01:02:50 PM
...I do agree that Trump is fanning the flames of civil unrest, and seems to now be dependent on breaking apart the country in the hopes of getting re-elected.

You must not be following the news at all. Trump is the unifier. The old Obama regime and current Leftists and MSM are the dividers. It was Trump who corrected years of economic pain to minorities and actually did what he promised to help them. As the Leftists try to break apart the country, it is also them who act like Trump is the one doing it. Don't be part of the hypocrisy.

The great unifier...  wow..  I'm actually worried for you
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: wmLambert on July 08, 2020, 01:03:11 PM
...we get "have you seen any sign they were a problem?" which is not outright denial but a wishy washy way of saying that if no one can prove it was a problem then nothing to see here.

Correct in the main, but The question is whether the protests in general were staged by a frantic losing Leftist crowd who wanted to hurt the Trump economy at any cost. It still is the question.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: wmLambert on July 08, 2020, 01:07:09 PM
...The great unifier...  wow..  I'm actually worried for you

No, you're probably not. You are just offended that the almighty rush to paint everything Trump does as diametrically opposed to what he really did or said is questioned. You cannot deny the low unemployment numbers nor the improvement of all minorities under his first three years. You ridicule him for pointing out that Leftwing agitators tear down statues of abolitionists.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDrake on July 08, 2020, 01:33:55 PM
What on earth do low unemployment numbers have to do with unifying?

As for unifying, he's been brilliant at unifying the orange god worshippers against any policy, any dissent, any country, any entertainer that does not follow His will. They are united in their defense of anything and everything Trump says or does. The problem is he left the other 60% of the country and a good chunk of the rest of the world out of it.

Reagan was a unifier. He pulled together groups that are naturally opposed to each other in a broad coalition. He won his elections 489-49 and 525-13. He worked with a heavily Democratic house to pass important legislation.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: rightleft22 on July 08, 2020, 01:47:01 PM
...The great unifier...  wow..  I'm actually worried for you

No, you're probably not. You are just offended that the almighty rush to paint everything Trump does as diametrically opposed to what he really did or said is questioned. You cannot deny the low unemployment numbers nor the improvement of all minorities under his first three years. You ridicule him for pointing out that Leftwing agitators tear down statues of abolitionists.

It seems your ability to mind read needs work. I'm not offended and I do worry about any one that argues that Trump is the 'great unifier' and not seeing their own hypocrisy and projections.

I can understand why some people might support the Trump administrations policies but don't understand how anyone can defend the man methods as being unifying.
If Trump is 'the great unifier' the state of the union would indicate that he is failing badly.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: wmLambert on July 08, 2020, 01:51:01 PM
What on earth do low unemployment numbers have to do with unifying?

As for unifying, he's been brilliant at unifying the orange god worshippers against any policy, any dissent, any country, any entertainer that does not follow His will. They are united in their defense of anything and everything Trump says or does. The problem is he left the other 60% of the country and a good chunk of the rest of the world out of it.

Reagan was a unifier. He pulled together groups that are naturally opposed to each other in a broad coalition. He won his elections 489-49 and 525-13. He worked with a heavily Democratic house to pass important legislation.

No. Incorrect, non-logical statements that only appear likely. Reagan was attacked just like Trump. He went around the opposition press to answer his critics, and it took two full terms for the MSM to pick up on the fact that he WAS a unifier. I remember Bush 43 who truly was a bipartisan politician being sabotaged by the Democrat Party by withdrawing all their members from all the Bipartisan working groups he has set up, and had already delivered most of the Democrat planks that the Dems could never accomplish on their own. Only after Bush 43 gave them the Kennedy-led NCLB legislation and they realized they had no issues to run on, that they decided the new paradigm of hurting the nation to gain power by projecting their action onto Bush. 

Do you really need the benefits of lowest unemployment numbers ever for minorities to be spoon-fed to you? You cannot be that dishonest.

You defining the voting electorate as "orange god worshippers" defines you - not them. Why do you say thhat? Because the Leftwing MSM has said so, and in so doing torn apart the nation on purpose. That is on you - not on Trump.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: yossarian22c on July 08, 2020, 02:06:15 PM
...The great unifier...  wow..  I'm actually worried for you

No, you're probably not. You are just offended that the almighty rush to paint everything Trump does as diametrically opposed to what he really did or said is questioned. You cannot deny the low unemployment numbers nor the improvement of all minorities under his first three years. You ridicule him for pointing out that Leftwing agitators tear down statues of abolitionists.

Unemployment isn't low anymore. Trump doesn't unify, he attacks. He divides, he bullies. You can enjoy or admire that type of rhetoric as "strong" or somesuch but Trump as the great unifier is absurd.

Are you still convinced Trump is a good man and everyone who knows him says so?
The two recent books by Bolton and Trump's niece kind of put a lie to that. The man's own former NSC and his own family are writing books talking about how horrible and dangerous he is to the country. Support him or not but do it with your eyes open about who and what you're supporting.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on July 08, 2020, 02:17:40 PM
How convenient that a post hoc justification of "oh outside is ok" came after they knew the protests would happen regardless of what they said.
People keep saying things like this, but it seems a pretty basic misunderstanding: the protests were definitely not a good thing for the spread of the virus, and almost certainly led to increases in cases.  But pretending that the large increases in daily new cases (much of which predated the protests) were primarily, or even substantially, a result of the protests as opposed to other dynamics is demonstrably wrong.  Pointing out this incorrect hypothesis should not be mistaken for a justification for the protests.  That's a complete straw man argument, at best; at worst, it's dishonest.

To governors moved through opening phases too quickly. many of them were moving from phase to phase on a 2 week or less interval even though they knew that tests for infection often lag the infection by 2 weeks. I'm not going to deny they screwed up on their rush to reopen the bars and boost capacity at dine-in restaurants.

But they're still only one piece of the puzzle, as Fenring pointed out, even if the riots themselves didn't directly contribute, the blow it struck in regards to "social distancing" in general was massive and unmistakable.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: Fenring on July 08, 2020, 02:21:27 PM
...we get "have you seen any sign they were a problem?" which is not outright denial but a wishy washy way of saying that if no one can prove it was a problem then nothing to see here.

Correct in the main, but The question is whether the protests in general were staged by a frantic losing Leftist crowd who wanted to hurt the Trump economy at any cost. It still is the question.

Lol, thanks for the 'help'...
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on July 08, 2020, 02:22:32 PM
...I do agree that Trump is fanning the flames of civil unrest, and seems to now be dependent on breaking apart the country in the hopes of getting re-elected.

You must not be following the news at all. Trump is the unifier. The old Obama regime and current Leftists and MSM are the dividers. It was Trump who corrected years of economic pain to minorities and actually did what he promised to help them. As the Leftists try to break apart the country, it is also them who act like Trump is the one doing it. Don't be part of the hypocrisy.

Trump is doing an effective job of providing them with sound bites they're using to fan the flames. Otherwise they're just taking his remarks, ignoring them, and declaring he said something else entirely. (His speech at Mount Rushmore)
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: wmLambert on July 08, 2020, 02:33:35 PM
...rump is doing an effective job of providing them with sound bites they're using to fan the flames. Otherwise they're just taking his remarks, ignoring them, and declaring he said something else entirely. (His speech at Mount Rushmore)

There is no alternative when going around a complicit media to answer disinformation. Anything said can be paraphrased incorrectly, and if the MSM is no longer a professional pillar of society and won't vet itself, there is no reason to expect honesty in reporting.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: Wayward Son on July 08, 2020, 05:29:31 PM
Lambert, how can you seriously believe he is a unifier when his approval polls haven't budged from 40 percent the entire time he has been in office?  :o

Doesn't it follow that someone who unifies the country is actually popular in that country?  Wouldn't a unifier have less than half the country consistently disapprove of him?  Can you name another unifiers that was as unpopular as Trump??

The only thing he unifies is the polarities to their extremes.  Those who love him are more unified; those who hate him are even more unified.  But that is a far cry from someone who unifies everyone in the country together.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on July 08, 2020, 09:29:11 PM
Lambert, how can you seriously believe he is a unifier when his approval polls haven't budged from 40 percent the entire time he has been in office?  :o

When you have all but one major and a handful of smaller media/news outlets that are openly hostile towards him. It's really easy to see how even the best human being imaginable could have trouble breaking 50% approval.

And Ironically enough, for Christians their "best human imaginable" actually had a comparable problem. But that's as far as I care to go with that comparison as it fails on most other levels.

Quote
Doesn't it follow that someone who unifies the country is actually popular in that country?  Wouldn't a unifier have less than half the country consistently disapprove of him?  Can you name another unifiers that was as unpopular as Trump??

To be fair, if someone is only managing to reliably hold an approval rating in the low 50th percentile range, they're not "a Unifier." They're either a divider, or dealing with overtly hostile media coverage skewing perceptions across most of the media spectrum.
 
Quote
The only thing he unifies is the polarities to their extremes.  Those who love him are more unified; those who hate him are even more unified.  But that is a far cry from someone who unifies everyone in the country together.

Weird, I know the same claims were being made about Obama too, and his approval ratings spent most of its time under 50% from what I'm seeing according to Gallop. And most of the media loved him to the point of borderline worship, so he certainly wasn't dealing in a wide spectrum hostile press.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: wmLambert on July 09, 2020, 01:08:54 AM
...how can you seriously believe he is a unifier when his approval polls haven't budged from 40 percent the entire time he has been in office?

Since the MSM is almost 100% guilty of misrepresenting everything about him, any number above zero shows there are a few intelligent people out there who understand when they see disinformation.

You can't use polling which is skewed to prove very much, but you should be able to understand facts - and the metrics have proved how Trump has been good for minorities. Since the so-called disunity comes from those who want to stage a coup and take over from him, should anything they say be given credence?
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on July 09, 2020, 06:45:17 AM
... or maybe, along with all his other attempts to divide the country, his outreach to white supremacists and racists has put off the majority of those who believe that white supremacy and racism is really, really bad?
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: Fenring on July 09, 2020, 10:00:20 AM
... or maybe, along with all his other attempts to divide the country, his outreach to white supremacists and racists has put off the majority of those who believe that white supremacy and racism is really, really bad?

No one's opinion of him has changes one jot since his election, and there was zero inkling of any of what you say in his campaign unless you include the wall stuff. But the idea that people have been 'put off' because of alleged dog whistles to racists is misleading at best; most who hate him already did before he even became the Rep candidate.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on July 09, 2020, 10:02:38 AM
No one's opinion of him has changes one jot since his election, and there was zero inkling of any of what you say in his campaign unless you include the wall stuff. But the idea that people have been 'put off' because of alleged dog whistles to racists is misleading at best; most who hate him already did before he even became the Rep candidate.
Not true at all.  That's why polls show his approval and disapproval ratings going both up and down.  Sure, there are some whose opinions haven't changed, but many have.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on July 09, 2020, 10:11:22 AM
.. not to mention, he literally kicked off his candidacy with a racist screed against Mexicans, and continued doing so without pause (including with his comments about Mexican judges, etc, etc).

So you have to factor in that he initially baked into his approval ratings a certain amount of resistance to his racism.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDrake on July 09, 2020, 11:36:24 AM
To be a unifier, you have to make a concession and create compromise. Like give the Democrats or the Press some of what they want? Like DACA citizenship for wall money?
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on July 09, 2020, 04:03:39 PM
If the "post-hoc" argument had nothing to do with the post of mine that you quoted, then you shouldn't have quoted those words from my post.

I quoted that portion of your text, which I'll repeat here just to avoid potential confusion -

Quote
Is there any evidence that the protests caused a significant number of infections, significant as compared to all the other behaviours leading to the infection rates?  We should see huge spikes in the areas where the protests happened, and ongoing reductions in infection rates elsewhere.

Is that what we see?

- because it very much carries the connotation that the protests weren't really a significant health concern, despite some people trying to make it look like one.
No, it didn't carry that connotation.  I pointed out, initially, that those protests were a terrible idea from the perspective of the pandemic, but what you quoted was simply about the data analysis - the actual words were limited to pointing out that the actual data did not seem to support the argument, as put forward by TheDaemon, that the protests caused any significant increase in infections.

You do this all the time - inserting yourself into a discussion, while being completely unaware that your partisan blinders cause you to misread the actual written words.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: Fenring on July 09, 2020, 05:47:56 PM
Quote
- because it very much carries the connotation that the protests weren't really a significant health concern, despite some people trying to make it look like one.
No, it didn't carry that connotation.  I pointed out, initially, that those protests were a terrible idea from the perspective of the pandemic, but what you quoted was simply about the data analysis - the actual words were limited to pointing out that the actual data did not seem to support the argument, as put forward by TheDaemon, that the protests caused any significant increase in infections.

Yes, I know that your literal text said this. But I don't think I'm off base using my 'crystal ball' to intuit that if your remarks take the form of a rebuttal that you are opposed to TheDeamon's proposition (that BLM is 'magic' and is treated like it doesn't count re: COVID). When I read something like this -

Quote
Huge protests in those states, yet no increase in cases coincident with the protests... hmmm...

the requisite snark shows pretty clearly that you not only think objectively that there is no spike evident, but that in addition you find the idea silly that there was one. No, you did not outright say that, but if we're forbidden to draw fairly obvious conclusions from text then next to zero data can be extracted from anything anyone says. Language and communication don't actually work like that. It seems to me a motte and bailey approach to language to use insinuating words and punctuation but then withdraw to claiming you meant literally nothing more than was written. I'm not accusing you, btw, but rather objecting to the idea that reading between the lines is somehow bad form; it's actually a necessary component of language. We do not literally say everything we mean or think.

Here's another point, that has oft been brought up in one form or another:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_restricted_choice

Loosely stated it is a principle showing that the odds of someone having a holding in cards is reduced when they 'choose' not to play it on a card play, because they may have not played it because they chose to, and may not have because they could not. Thus failing to produce a card on a play has an increased chance that they lack that card than just 50/50. The principle holds for choosing to make statements; if you fail to produce a particular argument, there is a greater chance you don't hold it or believe it, as the reason for not stating it might alternatively be that one chose not to say it on this occasion, or that one doesn't believe it. When I see a consistent trend towards only arguments on one side the Law applies; the odds that the person actually believes it but chose not to remark on it is reduced. For instance in this occasion, why not just say to TheDeamon "yeah it was bad, but it may not have caused that much damage in hindsight". An easy opportunity to express at least partial agreement, but instead your wrote a somewhat snarky rebuttal; that doesn't sound to me like you partially agree. Is this an irrational conclusion?

Quote
You do this all the time - inserting yourself into a discussion, while being completely unaware that your partisan blinders cause you to misread the actual written words.

Yes, sorry for participating in a discussion on a discussion forum, next time I'll ask permission, and I'll be doubly sure to make sure I have no biases before posting. Sorry to be the outlier on Ornery in having a point of view...

/snark

That said, I think "partisan blinders" doesn't mean what you think it means. You are using it to mean "you disagree with me", whereas in fact it ought to mean I have a strict compliance with a particular partisan (conservative, I guess?) side. But hold on: if you check your own post history and mine, you will likely find that the cause of police brutality, violence, and mistreatment of people is a cause I've posted about probably 100 times more than you have. That might actually literally be accurate. I've started multiple threads about it, many of which were about black people being killed for no reason. They weren't BLM threads per se, but were about the issue they were protesting, which includes the need for vast police reform. I know this won't fit into your theory that all dissent from your POV is "partisan" but I'm sorry to tell you that your idea about my post is pretty absent in terms of accuracy. The side I'm taking about the protests screwing around with COVID morale is a pro-social distancing position. And yet I also am strongly in support of police reform, and largely agree with the object of the protests. But yeah, I object to one thing and I have "partisan blinders". You really need to dispense with the us vs them idea, man.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on July 09, 2020, 05:51:59 PM
As Kasandra was wont to point out - your crystal ball is broken, more often than not, and you are completely oblivious to this fact.

<shrug>
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: Fenring on July 09, 2020, 05:57:02 PM
As Kasandra was wont to point out - your crystal ball is broken, more often than not, and you are completely oblivious to this fact.

<shrug>

Then what explanation do you have - not that you owe one, but if you're willing to satisfy my curiosity - for offering snark in response to TheDeamon's comment about how people weren't allowed to gather in their own back yard but a gathering of 1,000 people was ok? If my crystal ball is broken then what purpose was there in offering a curt rebuttal rather than offering any point of agreement?

I won't even comment on your definition of partisan, since I'm probably further to the left than you are on many issues.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on July 09, 2020, 05:57:43 PM
If you prefer an example
Quote
the requisite snark shows pretty clearly that you not only think objectively that there is no spike evident, but that in addition you find the idea silly that there was one.
Incorrect assumption - the snark was directed to the certainty displayed in TheDaemon's conclusion, not only in the absence of evidence, but in the presence of refuting evidence.

If I were to point out every time you speculate on people's motives or assume their true thinking, it would be a full time job.  Kasandra tried it for a while, but it was exhausting just watching it - I have no interest in schooling you on your every post.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on July 09, 2020, 06:10:39 PM
I decided to go back and dig into the root of this particular dispute.

Or more recently in Oregon there was a recent meme, which sadly I didn't research further at the time to verify, but it holds with what was being reported that day nationwide.

Their City Twitter feed announces a BLM protest to happen on the 4th of July and how they expect over 1,000 people to attend the protest.

A few hours later, the City Twitter account announces 4th of July Celebratory events have been canceled due to Covid19 and the danger of large gatherings.

The BLM Protest still happened though.

BLM is Magic, it somehow protects people from getting Covid19, but everything else involving large groups of people is dangerous and to be avoided.

And yet people wonder why others have decided it's all bulls*** now?

Is there any evidence that the protests caused a significant number of infections, significant as compared to all the other behaviours leading to the infection rates?  We should see huge spikes in the areas where the protests happened, and ongoing reductions in infection rates elsewhere.

Is that what we see?

What I note now is an interesting deflection. I point out how a town canceled 4th of July Celebrations because large crowds are dangerous(due to Covid), even though the public portions of those celebrations would be outdoors.

Meanwhile, the outdoor BLM protest(just like the 4th of July event), which they also anticipated as being large, was allowed to proceed because it somehow wasn't a risk to spreading the disease?

And you retort by asking if there is evidence of disease spread from BLM protests.

Doesn't matter in that specific instance. Can you elucidate on what would be materially different about the (public) 4th of July observance in comparison to the BLM protest? As it is reasonable to assume that canceling the fireworks show and other related events probably did not stop people from having private gatherings anyway.

Which brings us back to "it's magic" as BLM protests are somehow capable of stopping Covid19 spread in ways that other public gatherings in the exact same kind of circumstances, are incapable of doing. At least as per that City's twitter feed.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on July 09, 2020, 07:42:42 PM
I decided to go back and dig into the root of this particular dispute.

Or more recently in Oregon there was a recent meme, which sadly I didn't research further at the time to verify, but it holds with what was being reported that day nationwide.

Interesting - you excised the portion of your post to which I was actually responding.

Here is the beginning of your post to which I was responding:

Nobody expects Trump to have regulated the country out of the pandemic.  What he has done is communicated the country into a much worse situation, and Republicans and libertarians are not so dumb as to be unaware of that.  Similarly, they can see him lighting the fires of white supremacy and racism, and neither group is inherently supportive of the country's history of slavery or racism.

Problem is, you run into the BLM protests. Trump bloviating around wasn't the problem. Even the New York Times is starting to realize that was a major mistake.

The problem we have was public health officials condemning the reopening protests, then turning around to actively encourage participation in BLM protests, while simultaneously discouraging other activities.

I had one friend a month ago who noticed that in his areas gatherings of more than 10 people were not allowed, but protests of up to 100 people were. He promptly announced he was having a protest in his back yard and asked people to bring food.

Or more recently in Oregon there was a recent meme, which sadly I didn't research further at the time to verify, but it holds with what was being reported that day nationwide.
...
Since you were responding to my post, where I blame Trump for "[communicating] the country into a much worse situation", I think it fair to expect that you claiming that "Trump bloviating around wasn't the problem" was a reference to my "much worse situation" characterization.  In which case your "you run into the BLM protests" statement clearly suggested you thought that the BLM protests were the problem.  Which problem?  Presumably, the problem to which you were responding in my quote, the much worse pandemic situation.

Now, if that is NOT what you meant, then I clearly misread you - did I? In which case, what did you mean by "[running] into the BLM protests", if not that they made the infection numbers, not just worse, but responsible for all of the excess infections in a way that Trump was not responsible by his mishandling of the pandemic?
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: Fenring on July 09, 2020, 08:11:44 PM
If you prefer an example
Quote
the requisite snark shows pretty clearly that you not only think objectively that there is no spike evident, but that in addition you find the idea silly that there was one.
Incorrect assumption - the snark was directed to the certainty displayed in TheDaemon's conclusion, not only in the absence of evidence, but in the presence of refuting evidence.

But TheDeamon wasn't in any obvious may making a numerical claim; he seems to me to have been saying that for all the talk of everything being Trump's fault, none of it is laid at the feet of the protests. Now he seems to go further and assign more blame to the protests than to Trump, which is an assessment that would be hard to calculate, never mind trying to refute it using only COVID spike numbers. You'd have to ask first 'made worse in what way'. I already argued an example of this, not sure if TheDeamon meant anything like that, but as the point I have to just assume someone read it and didn't have anything to say. But assuming that citing some immediate spike data somehow refutes the claim that the protests did damage is a specious rebuttal. Now it would be fine as an added on point, but as a rebuttal it doesn't really contradict anything TheDeamon said, other than to show that at least on that particular front the data is inconclusive in support his point. So taking a general point about how the hypocrisy of allowing a protest while denying lesser things, and the experts seesawing on the point, and having you attempt to answer that with some data that may or may not be on point, is what I was responding to. That he was so certain is obviously something I can understand you taking issue with, but if all you were trying to communicate was that he shouldn't be so certain that was a failure IMO.

Quote
If I were to point out every time you speculate on people's motives or assume their true thinking, it would be a full time job.  Kasandra tried it for a while, but it was exhausting just watching it - I have no interest in schooling you on your every post.

I do speculate on motives, yes, and specifically I try to zero in on what the real opinion of the poster is. I'm not quite as interested in points of debate refutation as I am in trying to figure out the real point of view behind the particular argument. To an extent I think our goal actually should be to come to understand that ideas, or mindset, of each other so that we can actually know what is being argued. The text on the screen is rather insufficient to be able to reply to anyone and have it be a real answer. Most often what you'll see is arguments about straw men when the real ideas are not on the table. It's easy to sometimes win an argument when you never even considered what the other person really thinks. You just set upon some text they write.

Now to the extent that 'motive speculation' is a no-no on the forum, I believe the meaning of that is we're not supposed to undermine someone's point by announcing why they wrote it; e.g.. "oh well that's a bad argument because you're just sore that the liberals are right." It's a sort of ad hominem with the purpose of avoiding a meeting of minds, and I don't do that. What I do try to do is to pin down why an argument was posed so that we can get past short blurbs of text and have a meeting of minds. It takes some risk to do that insofar as one can try to find the POV behind a comment, but you won't always be right. If personal POV's are off the table and only text is in bounds then it would actually limit discussion to the point of a puppet show. In reality most posts here do engage in motive analysis, as in trying to determine the person's political views, personality, and habits and so forth. These are germane IMO and no one complains. If you think I'm way off base in assigning a POV to a post of yours, sure, I might just be flat wrong, but maybe you should consider that you are flat wrong too...about your own post that is. You obviously know your POV, but one is not always aware of what one communicated in text writing. If I say your post came off as blatantly dismissive, maybe calling my comment 'blindly partisan' is itself the bad kind of motive speculation; ignoring an argument by assigning an epithet to the poster. Maybe, just maybe, I really did see what I saw and what you wrote wasn't representative of your POV.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on July 09, 2020, 09:19:36 PM
I do speculate on motives, yes, and specifically I try to zero in on what the real opinion of the poster is.
Yes, and you really shouldn't do so, not least because you are really, really bad at it. And more often than not, your misinterpretations and misrepresentations foul up the discussions. Like in this instance.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on July 10, 2020, 10:44:28 PM
Nobody expects Trump to have regulated the country out of the pandemic.  What he has done is communicated the country into a much worse situation, and Republicans and libertarians are not so dumb as to be unaware of that.  Similarly, they can see him lighting the fires of white supremacy and racism, and neither group is inherently supportive of the country's history of slavery or racism.

Problem is, you run into the BLM protests. Trump bloviating around wasn't the problem. Even the New York Times is starting to realize that was a major mistake.

The problem we have was public health officials condemning the reopening protests, then turning around to actively encourage participation in BLM protests, while simultaneously discouraging other activities.

I had one friend a month ago who noticed that in his areas gatherings of more than 10 people were not allowed, but protests of up to 100 people were. He promptly announced he was having a protest in his back yard and asked people to bring food.

Or more recently in Oregon there was a recent meme, which sadly I didn't research further at the time to verify, but it holds with what was being reported that day nationwide.
...
Since you were responding to my post, where I blame Trump for "[communicating] the country into a much worse situation", I think it fair to expect that you claiming that "Trump bloviating around wasn't the problem" was a reference to my "much worse situation" characterization.  In which case your "you run into the BLM protests" statement clearly suggested you thought that the BLM protests were the problem.  Which problem?  Presumably, the problem to which you were responding in my quote, the much worse pandemic situation.

Now, if that is NOT what you meant, then I clearly misread you - did I? In which case, what did you mean by "[running] into the BLM protests", if not that they made the infection numbers, not just worse, but responsible for all of the excess infections in a way that Trump was not responsible by his mishandling of the pandemic?

Trump confused the issue by his bloviating, he continues to confuse the issue. He certainly isn't helping, but the amount of harm he's be capable of it is was only him and some of his administration doing so is questionable. Sure it would have some kind of impact that would be difficult to quantify in any kind of meaningful way, but it would have been small.

The thing they "blew the doors down" and let the animals out of the barn and scattered everywhere were the public health officials who decided that BLM was more important than anything else. And then went about creating contradictory positions on things. Like the whole matter of being in a group of 10 or more people is dangerous and to be avoided. But being in a BLM protest with 1,000 people is okay.

It's unsafe to celebrate the fourth of July because even small social gatherings are dangerous because of covid, but BLM protests with hundreds of people are okay.

Most rational people are going to say "that does not make sense" and they did, and the covid numbers going up, and up, and up are a consequence of that.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on July 11, 2020, 06:49:26 AM
The thing they "blew the doors down" and let the animals out of the barn and scattered everywhere were the public health officials who decided that BLM was more important than anything else. And then went about creating contradictory positions on things. Like the whole matter of being in a group of 10 or more people is dangerous and to be avoided. But being in a BLM protest with 1,000 people is okay.
Who said that having thousands of people in a BLM protest would be "okay" from the perspective of that not likely leading to increased viral spread?  Anybody saying that would have been stupid.

Quote
Most rational people are going to say "that does not make sense" and they did, and the covid numbers going up, and up, and up are a consequence of that.

Huh.  You were shown data that disputed this assertion a few days ago:

For instance
  • Illinois - lots of large protests.  Continuing decrease in cases.
  • Minnesota - new cases dropped to a plateau, then remained steady
  • New York - steady decrease
  • Pennsylvania - steady decrease, to a base level
Huge protests in those states, yet no increase in cases coincident with the protests... hmmm...

LA is seeing a huge spike in cases, and it's had some truly massive protests, and riots as well.

LA is seeing a huge spike in cases, and it's had some truly massive protests, and riots as well.
So - some states with massive protests saw no spike in cases, while other states with massive protests saw a spike in cases.

What does that suggest to you?

If it helps, you can see a graph of California's new daily cases here (https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/usa/california/).

California's new case count had been rising steadily since March.  There is no sudden spike of cases 2 or 3 weeks after the protests began.  In fact, the new case graph how's a very steady upwards trend, with a slight increase in the new daily case rate about 4 weeks after the protests began, and that increase in rate was not dramatic.  So unless there was time travel involved, something else was going on in California.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on July 11, 2020, 02:16:59 PM
Donald, you're arguing against a point I'm not making.

I am not saying the protests themselves were a vector for the significant spread of Covid19 since the start of June.

I am saying how health officials have treated the BLM protests have resulted in people deciding to ignore them and just do their own thing instead. Which has resulted in the runaway spread of Covid19 in the United States.

So yes, the BLM protests are a cause for the spread that is being seen. But the protests do not seem to the be the vector through which it happened.

You can argue they weren't the vector for spread to your hearts content, you're trying to prove a point that isn't in much of a dispute. There were suspicions as early as mid-May that outdoor gatherings could be reasonably safe, and the BLM rallies appear to have validated that. (Remember Trump getting flack about using UV light internally? That was when there was a growing body of evidence saying outdoors in sunlight may not be much of a problem.. But health officials only gave their "blessing" for BLM at the end of May.)

But I'm not arguing about a spread vector, I'm arguing about what triggered people ignoring health guidelines on a massive scale and the resulting surge in cases.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDrake on July 11, 2020, 03:49:20 PM
I am saying how health officials have treated the BLM protests have resulted in people deciding to ignore them and just do their own thing instead. Which has resulted in the runaway spread of Covid19 in the United States.


BS. Everybody was already trying their hardest to repeal or ignore every health measure. It's not like the protests inspired them to question masks.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on July 11, 2020, 05:35:09 PM
Donald, you're arguing against a point I'm not making.

I am not saying the protests themselves were a vector for the significant spread of Covid19 since the start of June.

I am saying how health officials have treated the BLM protests have resulted in people deciding to ignore them and just do their own thing instead. Which has resulted in the runaway spread of Covid19 in the United States.

So yes, the BLM protests are a cause for the spread that is being seen. But the protests do not seem to the be the vector through which it happened.

You can argue they weren't the vector for spread to your hearts content, you're trying to prove a point that isn't in much of a dispute. There were suspicions as early as mid-May that outdoor gatherings could be reasonably safe, and the BLM rallies appear to have validated that. (Remember Trump getting flack about using UV light internally? That was when there was a growing body of evidence saying outdoors in sunlight may not be much of a problem.. But health officials only gave their "blessing" for BLM at the end of May.)

But I'm not arguing about a spread vector, I'm arguing about what triggered people ignoring health guidelines on a massive scale and the resulting surge in cases.

OK, but that is not how this reads:
Quote
It's unsafe to celebrate the fourth of July because even small social gatherings are dangerous because of covid, but BLM protests with hundreds of people are okay.

Most rational people are going to say "that does not make sense" and they did, and the covid numbers going up, and up, and up are a consequence of that.
What exactly did you mean by "that" if not BLM protests?
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on July 11, 2020, 05:55:30 PM
As for the runaway spread being the result of how experts were responding to the black lives matter protests, again you need a time machine to make that true, since the increases to the infection rates we're kicking up prior to the beginning of the black lives matter protests and again did not increase significantly following the protests - at least not in a perceptibly more rapid fashion.

So the theory that people are responding to the experts' responses to the black lives matter protest doesn't hold water either.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on July 11, 2020, 06:00:02 PM
In a related vein, here is an interesting article from the BBC about magical thinking and how 50% of those in the USA believe in at least one conspiracy theory: The accidental invention of the Illuminati conspiracy (https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20170809-the-accidental-invention-of-the-illuminati-conspiracy)
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on July 12, 2020, 02:50:39 PM
Donald, you're arguing against a point I'm not making.

I am not saying the protests themselves were a vector for the significant spread of Covid19 since the start of June.

I am saying how health officials have treated the BLM protests have resulted in people deciding to ignore them and just do their own thing instead. Which has resulted in the runaway spread of Covid19 in the United States.

So yes, the BLM protests are a cause for the spread that is being seen. But the protests do not seem to the be the vector through which it happened.

You can argue they weren't the vector for spread to your hearts content, you're trying to prove a point that isn't in much of a dispute. There were suspicions as early as mid-May that outdoor gatherings could be reasonably safe, and the BLM rallies appear to have validated that. (Remember Trump getting flack about using UV light internally? That was when there was a growing body of evidence saying outdoors in sunlight may not be much of a problem.. But health officials only gave their "blessing" for BLM at the end of May.)

But I'm not arguing about a spread vector, I'm arguing about what triggered people ignoring health guidelines on a massive scale and the resulting surge in cases.

OK, but that is not how this reads:
Quote
It's unsafe to celebrate the fourth of July because even small social gatherings are dangerous because of covid, but BLM protests with hundreds of people are okay.

Most rational people are going to say "that does not make sense" and they did, and the covid numbers going up, and up, and up are a consequence of that.
What exactly did you mean by "that" if not BLM protests?

It's saying the exact same thing, it just left a lot of it to implication, which you're obviously failing to grasp. How you're not seeing it demonstrates part of the major communication problems society is having right now.

Quote
I am saying how health officials have treated the BLM protests have resulted in people deciding to ignore them and just do their own thing instead. Which has resulted in the runaway spread of Covid19 in the United States.

So yes, the BLM protests are a cause for the spread that is being seen. But the protests do not seem to the be the vector through which it happened.

To which "It's unsafe to celebrate the Fourth of July (outdoors) because even small (outdoor) social gatherings are dangerous because of covid, but BLM protests with hundreds of people are okay." Should be an exceptionally easy comment to decipher.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on July 12, 2020, 10:15:12 PM
Let me repeat the second part of my response, which you seemed to have overlooked:

As for the runaway spread being the result of how experts were responding to the black lives matter protests, again you need a time machine to make that true, since the increases to the infection rates we're kicking up prior to the beginning of the black lives matter protests and again did not increase significantly following the protests - at least not in a perceptibly more rapid fashion.

So the theory that people are responding to the experts' responses to the black lives matter protest doesn't hold water either.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on July 12, 2020, 10:31:33 PM
Or, as the Darke so succinctly put it:

BS.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on July 17, 2020, 12:09:46 PM
ACLU re-tweets David Burbach:

 (https://twitter.com/ACLU/status/1284109211790712832)
Quote
ACLU
@ACLU

Usually when we see people in unmarked cars forcibly grab someone off the street we call it kidnapping — what is happening now in Portland should concern everyone in the US.

These actions are flat-out unconstitutional and will not go unanswered.
Quote
David Burbach
@dburbach

Oregon Public Broadcasting confirms tweets today that federal officers in camouflage but no agency identification or badges, driving unmarked non-government rental cars, are grabbing protestors off streets in Portland and not talking w local authorities
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on July 17, 2020, 02:14:03 PM
Well, when local government officials don't want to do anything about the current situation. The Feds have a limited range of options.

It should also be noted that in the context that I've seen of "the snatchings" taking place, it isn't completely out of line. Unusual yes, but within the realm of "probable cause" for detention, and anyone who believes you're given a reason for being taken into custody and mirandized before arrival at the station... You've been watching too much TV.

Edit to add: Typical context to my knowledge is person who is detained "matches a description" and the time frame/location also corresponds with "leaving the vicinity where violent protests have occurred which involved actions which are violations under Federal Law."

"Catch and release" by law enforcement without booking the individual also is not an alien practice in the US, it's quite common in major cities.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on July 17, 2020, 02:28:48 PM
I'm not sure that using masked, non-branded, unidentifiable armed people to apprehend citizens, and put them into unmarked vehicles, is a look that the government wants.  I also seriously doubt it is legal.

It's also interesting that the elected authorities in the area have not requested these interventions - neither the mayor nor the governor seem to want them there...  I understand that the states in the USA do not have the same power or autonomy that Canadian provinces have, but for some reason this seems inconsistent with what I've heard about US federalism.

Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on July 17, 2020, 02:35:19 PM
https://www.dhs.gov/news/2020/07/16/acting-secretary-wolf-condemns-rampant-long-lasting-violence-portland
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: Wayward Son on July 17, 2020, 02:46:41 PM
Meanwhile, Oregon state officials are pretty PO'd. (https://www.wweek.com/news/2020/07/16/oregon-gov-kate-brown-says-president-trump-is-invading-portland-as-an-election-stunt/)

Quote
"This political theater from President Trump has nothing to do with public safety," [Gove. Kate] Brown said. "The president is failing to lead this nation. Now he is deploying federal officers to patrol the streets of Portland in a blatant abuse of power by the federal government..."

"I told acting Secretary Wolf that the federal government should remove all federal officers from our streets," Brown said. "His response showed me he is on a mission to provoke confrontation for political purposes. He is putting both Oregonians and local law enforcement officers in harm's way. This, coming from the same president who used tear gas to clear out peaceful protesters in Washington, D.C., to engineer a photo opportunity..."

"Trump is looking for a confrontation in Oregon in the hopes of winning political points in Ohio or Iowa," she said...

"A peaceful protester in Portland was shot in the head by one of Donald Trump's secret police," [U.S. Senator Ron] Wyden wrote on Twitter. "Now Trump and Chad Wolf are weaponizing the DHS as their own occupying army to provoke violence on the streets of my hometown because they think it plays well with right-wing media..."

"Federal forces shot an unarmed protester in the face," [U.S. Senator Jeff] Merkley said. "These shadowy forces have been escalating, not preventing, violence. If Sec. Wolf is coming here to inflame the situation so the president can look like a tough guy, he should turn around and leave our city now."

But I guess Trump knows better than the most senior elected officials in the state, doesn't he? :)
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on July 17, 2020, 02:56:41 PM
But I guess Trump knows better than the most senior elected officials in the state, doesn't he? :)

Funny thing is it is only the state level officials who are speaking out. The City of Portland, and even the County officials have been "strangely quiet" on this front. Even their local news rag, which is calling the Federal Officers "an occupying army" have made observations on that front.

Seems the reality is local government is stuck between a rock and a hard place. They've hung their hat on AntiFa over the past several years. While "no proof" has been presented that it is AntiFa and affiliates constantly assaulting the Federal Buildings in Portland, the local gov knows acting against those groups will anger their AntiFa allies.

But by the same token, speaking against what the Federal Government is doing is likely to anger even more of their constituents who know the facts on the ground in the impacted neighborhoods.

Meanwhile, the state officials can keep yammering away about what the Feds are doing because they could give a #%&@ about the welfare or voting interests of people in those neighborhoods, they're playing to an audience in other highly liberal communities to the south of Portland and blissfully unaffected by what's going on there.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on July 17, 2020, 03:10:48 PM
Local (?) news KGW8 (https://www.kgw.com/article/news/local/protests/local-and-state-leaders-speak-out-about-federal-officer-severely-injuring-protester/283-6843803f-c8ec-4ac3-a812-1b0dabf735c3)

Quote
After putting out a written statement last night, Portland Mayor Ted Wheeler said on Monday, “I want to make it very clear so there's no confusion: the serious injuries sustained by Donavan Labella at the hands of a federal officer were unacceptable.”

The mayor said he wants federal troops out, but he doesn't have the authority to make them leave. But Wheeler took heat for first responding to the incident late Sunday, while his colleagues on city council reacted sooner and stronger.
“Well as to whether they're as strong or not, I think that's a judgement call,” said Wheeler. “But I made it crystal clear what happened in Portland the other night should not have happened.”
So, both the mayor and city council seem to want the federal troops out. And that was several days ago - at least as of Monday.

What did the governor have to say?
Quote
Oregon Gov. Kate Brown said the street violence, as she called it, has to stop to allow for systemic change to happen.
But she also said, “I don't believe that President Trump ordering troops to the streets in Portland is the solution to the challenges we're facing and I would ask Portlanders to not take the bait.”

“Trump's troops in Portland are definitely not the answer," she said. "As we saw, this only escalates the tension, and we need dialogue and de-escalation."
Clearly, she thinks the federal troops are a provocation and at least partly responsible for the escalating violence which is being perpetrated, as usual, by only a small subset of protesters.

But that is completely separate from the federal troops acting independently of any possible oversight by hiding their identities as well as their affiliations. There are reasons why police must be identifiable.  I can't imagine this is in question.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on July 17, 2020, 03:26:51 PM
If it wasn't for the Federal presence in Portland, they'd be down one Federal Courthouse, and one other Federal Building.

Of course, I guess the City of Portland and the state of Washington would be more than happy to see the Federal government spending a couple hundred million in their local area rebuilding those facilities.

How about we not let them get destroyed in the first place?

And my bad, the Mayor was silent up until what happened this past weekend. The Governor had been calling them an occupying army for some time now.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on July 17, 2020, 03:47:53 PM
It's weird that both the Governor and Mayor want federal buildings destroyed.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on July 17, 2020, 04:12:01 PM
It's weird that both the Governor and Mayor want federal buildings destroyed.

It is, isn't it? If they don't want the Feds to get involved in defending those buildings, why hasn't the local Police been doing so?
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on July 17, 2020, 04:34:32 PM
It's probably because they are evil geniuses, or maybe just evil.  You get that a lot with crazy leftists.  Plus, they hate the USA. And freedom
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDrake on July 17, 2020, 05:16:31 PM
A news google of federal courthouse portland - July 4th

article (https://www.opb.org/news/article/portland-police-less-lethal-munitions-protest-courthouse/)

Quote
Police broke up a group of several hundred protesters in downtown Portland overnight Thursday and into Friday morning. Crowd control munitions were used after protesters shot fireworks towards police, broke windows and set what appeared to be a small fire inside the federal courthouse, police said.

So I guess that doesn't count? Or its just not enough, and they should be gassing and clubbing everyone in sight over graffiti?

Meanwhile if the Feds want to defend the courthouse, that would be the job of the US Marshals, not some shadowy government agency picking up random people from the street who may or may not have been involved in any violent protest. Without any due process, it's kind of hard to know, isn't it?

Quote
“The U.S. Marshals are responsible for the protection of the federal judiciary, and we take that responsibility very seriously. While we do not discuss our specific security measures, we continuously review the security measures in place and take appropriate steps to provide additional protection when it is warranted,” said an official with the U.S. Marshals.

Their antifa pals are probably going to be pissed that they're being sent to jail.

Quote
Officials say 9 people have been criminally charged, one person is facing federal charges.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: Wayward Son on July 17, 2020, 06:04:31 PM
https://www.dhs.gov/news/2020/07/16/acting-secretary-wolf-condemns-rampant-long-lasting-violence-portland

Did anybody read this?  Wolf ends the statement with "a snapshot of the lawless destruction and violence of the past several weeks that Department of Homeland Security and its subcomponents of Immigration and Customs Enforcement, Customs and Border Protection, and Federal Protective Service have faced."

You know what most of that "lawless destruction and violence" is? 

Graffiti.

Quote
05/29/2020

Violent anarchists broke a front window at the Hatfield Courthouse.
Violent anarchists graffitied the Hatfield Courthouse.
Overall, the cost of damages on federal property done by the violent mob this first night was estimated at $5,000.
05/30/2020

Violent anarchists graffitied the BPA Building.
Violent anarchists graffitied the Hatfield Courthouse.
Violent anarchists graffitied the Edith Green-Wenell Wyatt Building.
Violent anarchists graffitied the Terry Schrunk Plaza.
Violent anarchists graffitied the 911 Federal Building.
Violent anarchists graffitied the Pioneer Courthouse.
Violent anarchists graffitied the Gus J. Solomon Courthouse.
06/01/2020

Violent anarchists graffitied the Hatfield Courthouse.
Violent anarchists graffitied Terry Schrunk Plaza.
Violent anarchists graffitied The Pioneer Courthouse.
Violent anarchists graffitied The Gus J Solomon Courthouse.
06/02/2020

Violent anarchists graffitied the U.S. Custom House....

7/01/2020

Violent anarchists graffitied new plywood covering the windows at the Hatfield Courthouse and ripped down plywood on the other side of the building.
A group of over 200 violent anarchists blocked access to the building and proceeded to launch aerial fireworks at federal property...

07/15/2020

Violent anarchists doxed members of federal law enforcement.
Violent anarchists attempted to damage the Hatfield Courthouse by throwing objects at it and spray painting it. Numerous fireworks were also lit.
Violent anarchists trespassed on federal property and destroyed a card reader at the Justice Center.

Notice they are all also "violent anarchists."  Apparently, painting graffiti is "violent."  Doxing is "violent."  Refusing to stay off federal property is "violent." Refusing to immediately comply with orders is "violent."

There are a couple of handfuls of actual violent acts cited.  But most of it wouldn't be considered "violent" in the usual sense--a direct physical threat to a person's body.

It is so heart-warming to see that our Department of Homeland Security--the agency tasked to defend our country against terrorists and such--are spending their precious time defending government buildings from taggers.  ;D  But, hey, we gotta keep our country safe from "violent anarchists."  ::)
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on July 17, 2020, 07:08:53 PM
I'm trying to figure out how they identified the perpetrators in each case as "anarchists"... Did they all have membership cards? Was the graffiti exclusively and consistently anarchist slogans and symbols?  Did the AFI (I'm calling this new arm of the federal government security apparatus the Armed Federal Incognitos) in each case listed make an "arrest" (nudge, nudge, wink, wink) and upon "interrogation" (nudge, nudge, wink, wink) did the "anarchists" confess their anarchism?

How much graffiti would it take to level a courthouse, TheDaemon? And I guess, from your silence on the topic, you are fine with masked, unnamed and untrackable agents of the federal government driving around, grabbing people and sticking them in unmarked vehicles, right?
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDrake on July 17, 2020, 07:10:38 PM
It's going to make for some great movies. Have you ever seen "In the Name of the Father"?
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: Fenring on July 17, 2020, 07:50:16 PM
I think the gist is that anyone who is is disorderly and non-compliant is by definition an anarchist, which in this case is likely a synonym for "disobedient troublemaker". I'd guess it's the same mentality certain police officers have in regard to citizens who do anything other than immediately and subserviently comply with commands.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on July 17, 2020, 07:59:36 PM
That's why this joke was funny...
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: Wayward Son on July 18, 2020, 12:07:15 PM
Here's an account of a couple that were taken in by these unidentified Federal officers in unmarked vehicles: (https://www.opb.org/news/article/federal-law-enforcement-unmarked-vehicles-portland-protesters/)

Quote
In the early hours of July 15, after a night spent protesting at the Multnomah County Justice Center and Mark O. Hatfield Federal Courthouse, Mark Pettibone and his friend Conner O’Shea decided to head home.

It had been a calm night compared to most protesting downtown. By 2 a.m. law enforcement hadn’t used any tear gas and, with only a few exceptions, both the Portland Police Bureau and federal law enforcement officers had stayed out of sight.

A block west of Chapman Square, Pettibone and O’Shea bumped into a group of people who warned them that people in camouflage were driving around the area in unmarked minivans grabbing people off the street.

“So that was terrifying to hear,” Pettibone said.

They had barely made it half a block when an unmarked minivan pulled up in front of them.

“I see guys in camo,” O’Shea said. “Four or five of them pop out, open the door and it was just like, ‘Oh *censored*. I don’t know who you are or what you want with us.’”

Federal law enforcement officers have been using unmarked vehicles to drive around downtown Portland and detain protesters since at least July 14. Personal accounts and multiple videos posted online show the officers driving up to people, detaining individuals with no explanation of why they are being arrested, and driving off...

But interviews conducted by OPB show officers are also detaining people on Portland streets who aren’t near federal property, nor is it clear that all of the people being arrested have engaged in criminal activity. Demonstrators like O’Shea and Pettibone said they think they were targeted by federal officers for simply wearing black clothing in the area of the demonstration.

O’Shea said he ran when he saw people wearing camouflage jump out of an unmarked vehicle. He said he hid when a second unmarked van pursued him.

Video shot by O’Shea and provided to OPB shows a dark screen as O’Shea narrates the scene. Metadata from the video confirms the time and place of the protesters’ account.

“Feds are driving around, grabbing people off the streets,” O’Shea said on the video. “I didn’t do anything *censored*ing wrong. I’m recording this. I had to let somebody know that this is what happens.”

Pettibone did not escape the federal officers.

“I am basically tossed into the van,” Pettibone said. “And I had my beanie pulled over my face so I couldn’t see and they held my hands over my head.”

Pettibone and O’Shea both said they couldn’t think of anything they might have done to end up targeted by law enforcement. They attend protests regularly but they said they aren’t “instigators.” They don’t spray paint buildings, shine laser pointers at officers or do anything else other than attend protests, which law enforcement have regularly deemed “unlawful assemblies.”

Blinded by his hat, in an unmarked minivan full of armed people dressed in camouflage and body armor who hadn’t identified themselves, Pettibone said he was driven around downtown before being unloaded inside a building. He wouldn’t learn until after his release that he had been inside the federal courthouse.
“It was basically a process of facing many walls and corners as they patted me down and took my picture and rummaged through my belongings,” Pettibone said. “One of them said, ‘This is a whole lot of nothing.’”

Pettibone said he was put into a cell. Soon after, two officers came in to read him his Miranda rights. They didn’t tell him why he was being arrested. He said they asked him if he wanted to waive his rights and answer some questions, but Pettibone declined and said he wanted a lawyer. The interview was terminated, and about 90 minutes later he was released. He said he did not receive any paperwork, citation or record of his arrest.

“I just happened to be wearing black on a sidewalk in downtown Portland at the time,” Pettibone said. “And that apparently is grounds for detaining me.”

Just imagine the government doing this at the next rally for Confederate statues.  Men in camouflage and body armor picking up anyone who looks like a neo-Nazi and tossing them in unmarked vans.  How well do you think that would go on before going downhill fast?  Before Hannity and company decry this as actions of a police state and call for the removal of the President?

We have know for a while that Trump is a bully.  Now he's instructed DHS to be bullies and thugs for him. And Republicans are just fine with that.  >:(
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on July 18, 2020, 03:50:13 PM
Here's an account of a couple that were taken in by these unidentified Federal officers in unmarked vehicles: (https://www.opb.org/news/article/federal-law-enforcement-unmarked-vehicles-portland-protesters/)

Quote
In the early hours of July 15, after a night spent protesting at the Multnomah County Justice Center and Mark O. Hatfield Federal Courthouse, Mark Pettibone and his friend Conner O’Shea decided to head home.

Totally not connected in any way to things happening at the protest location.

Quote
It had been a calm night compared to most protesting downtown. By 2 a.m. law enforcement hadn’t used any tear gas and, with only a few exceptions, both the Portland Police Bureau and federal law enforcement officers had stayed out of sight.

Interesting turn of phrase there for defining a "calm night" and conspicuously absent is mention of what the protesters were doing.

Problem with the previously linked DHS statement is it leaves some ambiguity if activities on the morning of the 15th are part of the 14th, or 15th... But in any case:
Quote
07/14/2020
Violent anarchists set a container of liquid on fire at the Terry Schrunk Plaza.
Violent anarchists jumped a fence and attempted to breach the Edith Green Federal Building.
Violent anarchists assaulted federal law enforcement officers with cans and other hard objects while they attempted to unblock the entrance of the Edith Green Federal Building.
07/15/2020
Violent anarchists doxed members of federal law enforcement.
Violent anarchists attempted to damage the Hatfield Courthouse by throwing objects at it and spray painting it. Numerous fireworks were also lit.
Violent anarchists trespassed on federal property and destroyed a card reader at the Justice Center.

Going by "law enforcement officers had stayed out of sight" we'll assume it was the second option. Events on the morning of the 15th are being described as happening on the 15th. In any case, neither night appears to actually conform to OPB's claim of "a calm night" unless you're wanting to twist things around "compared to most protesting downtown(in recent nights)."

So we have federal officials, who based on events of the prior night have decided that apprehending perpetrators on site is high risk and have now decided to try to track them until they leave the protest site and are in a venue where apprehension can be done safely for all involved.

Quote
A block west of Chapman Square, Pettibone and O’Shea bumped into a group of people who warned them that people in camouflage were driving around the area in unmarked minivans grabbing people off the street.
...
They had barely made it half a block when an unmarked minivan pulled up in front of them.

“I see guys in camo,” O’Shea said. “Four or five of them pop out, open the door and it was just like, ‘Oh *censored*. I don’t know who you are or what you want with us.’”

Also absent from the text description, but from reports regarding the video(which I admittedly haven't seen, but is also lacking in the article) indicate that the Uniforms were marked so they knew which agency was grabbing them, even if the people weren't wearing name tags.

Quote
Federal law enforcement officers have been using unmarked vehicles to drive around downtown Portland and detain protesters since at least July 14. Personal accounts and multiple videos posted online show the officers driving up to people, detaining individuals with no explanation of why they are being arrested, and driving off...

Yes, because cruising around in marked vehicles in an area where protesters have a history of swarming and destroying marked vehicles is a good idea.

Quote
But interviews conducted by OPB show officers are also detaining people on Portland streets who aren’t near federal property, nor is it clear that all of the people being arrested have engaged in criminal activity. Demonstrators like O’Shea and Pettibone said they think they were targeted by federal officers for simply wearing black clothing in the area of the demonstration.

More spin, and again, they've being exceedingly vague about the criteria they're using. What exactly constitutes "not near federal propetry" 3 blocks, 4 blocks, 1 mile? I also like how they've playing the "haven't engaged in criminal activity" while ignoring the matter that "They may have met the description of the people they were looking for at the time." You know, black beanies, black face mask, black shirt, black pants, right height, general build, etc... And having been tracked leaving the area where the crime occurred. It's like probable cause isn't a thing for law enforcement..

Quote
O’Shea said he ran when he saw people wearing camouflage jump out of an unmarked vehicle. He said he hid when a second unmarked van pursued him.

Because running from uniformed law enforcement is always a good way to establish your innocence.

Quote
Pettibone and O’Shea both said they couldn’t think of anything they might have done to end up targeted by law enforcement. They attend protests regularly but they said they aren’t “instigators.” They don’t spray paint buildings, shine laser pointers at officers or do anything else other than attend protests, which law enforcement have regularly deemed “unlawful assemblies.”

Yeah, "We've done nothing wrong except intentionally dress like the people who are doing something wrong, and routinely showing up on the nights where they're committing those crimes." And also ignore that whole matter of what was often happening to cause the protest to be deemed unlawful.

Quote
Blinded by his hat, in an unmarked minivan full of armed people dressed in camouflage and body armor who hadn’t identified themselves, Pettibone said he was driven around downtown before being unloaded inside a building. He wouldn’t learn until after his release that he had been inside the federal courthouse.

Except their body armor does identify their agency. But anyhow..
 
Quote
“It was basically a process of facing many walls and corners as they patted me down and took my picture and rummaged through my belongings,” Pettibone said. “One of them said, ‘This is a whole lot of nothing.’”

Probable cause. He himself admits he was in the area where a crime occurred(which the reported obfuscates), that he was dressed like the perpertrators, and was apprehended after leaving the protest site. But they did correctly identify him as having been a protester. I'd be upset about this if they were snatching people who were unconnected to the protests... But at roughly 2:30 AM and less than 2 blocks away, that's going to be hard to achieve I'd think.

Quote
Pettibone said he was put into a cell. Soon after, two officers came in to read him his Miranda rights. They didn’t tell him why he was being arrested. He said they asked him if he wanted to waive his rights and answer some questions, but Pettibone declined and said he wanted a lawyer. The interview was terminated, and about 90 minutes later he was released. He said he did not receive any paperwork, citation or record of his arrest.

Happens more often than many people would like to think, he was "a person of interest" and (correctly) identified as being non-cooperative, he was brough in, positively identified, evidence was examined, determined he wasn't the guy they were looking for, and let go.

But hey, at least he and the reporter are honest here:
Quote
“I just happened to be wearing black on a sidewalk in downtown Portland at the time,” Pettibone said. “And that apparently is grounds for detaining me.”

No @#$& maybe next time you decide to attend one of those protests, wear something that sets you apart from the lunatics trying to tear stuff down. Rather than dressing like decoy for them.

Just imagine the government doing this at the next rally for Confederate statues.  Men in camouflage and body armor picking up anyone who looks like a neo-Nazi and tossing them in unmarked vans.  How well do you think that would go on before going downhill fast?  Before Hannity and company decry this as actions of a police state and call for the removal of the President?

Depends, there are shades of nuance here that wildly skew things against the protester in this case.

How many neo-Nazi rallies involved property destruction of vandalism? Or attempts there-of? How many of them happen between the hours of 11PM and 2AM? how many of those rallies involve everyone wearing virtually identical clothing and face coverings?
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on July 18, 2020, 04:07:02 PM
Or to sum up that OPB article another way in Onion/BabylonBee satirical fashion:

Man picked up by police on roadside 1/4 mile away from Cross Burning on Friday night claims he is being profiled due to having been wearing white bedsheets with eyeholes at the time of his detention.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on July 18, 2020, 04:59:07 PM
I see you are still absolutely fine with masked, anonymous jackbooted stormtroopers picking up people and whisking them away in unmarked vehicles, TheDaemon.

As an aside, wearing black while protesting is not probable cause for anything.  It's weird that you don't care about constitutionally protected rights, TheDaemon. 
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on July 18, 2020, 05:27:14 PM
I see you are still absolutely fine with masked, anonymous jackbooted stormtroopers picking up people and whisking them away in unmarked vehicles, TheDaemon.

If it was random people, I'd have problems. Except it wasn't random:

Probable cause. He himself admits he was in the area where a crime occurred(which the reported obfuscates), that he was dressed like the perpertrators, and was apprehended after leaving the protest site. But they did correctly identify him as having been a protester. I'd be upset about this if they were snatching people who were unconnected to the protests... But at roughly 2:30 AM and less than 2 blocks away, that's going to be hard to achieve I'd think.

Quote
Pettibone said he was put into a cell. Soon after, two officers came in to read him his Miranda rights. They didn’t tell him why he was being arrested. He said they asked him if he wanted to waive his rights and answer some questions, but Pettibone declined and said he wanted a lawyer. The interview was terminated, and about 90 minutes later he was released. He said he did not receive any paperwork, citation or record of his arrest.

Happens more often than many people would like to think, he was "a person of interest" and (correctly) identified as being non-cooperative, he was brought in, positively identified, evidence was examined, determined he wasn't the guy they were looking for, and let go.

But hey, at least he and the reporter are honest here:
Quote
“I just happened to be wearing black on a sidewalk in downtown Portland at the time,” Pettibone said. “And that apparently is grounds for detaining me.”

No @#$& maybe next time you decide to attend one of those protests, wear something that sets you apart from the lunatics trying to tear stuff down. Rather than dressing like decoy for them.

As an aside, wearing black while protesting is not probable cause for anything.  It's weird that you don't care about constitutionally protected rights, TheDaemon.

It is probable cause when you match to description of the person who is either known or believed to have committed a crime, and you are in proximity of the crime scene. It becomes triply relevant when you also acknowledge you were in proximity to the crime scene at the time the crime occurred.

News flash: Identifying people in identical masks and clothing is hard.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on July 18, 2020, 05:32:17 PM
Or to sum up that OPB article another way in Onion/BabylonBee satirical fashion:

Man picked up by police on roadside 1/4 mile away from Cross Burning on Friday night claims he is being profiled due to having been wearing white bedsheets with eyeholes at the time of his detention.

To continue this exercise.

The Man admits that he has been present at the time numerous other cross burning events have occurred, and that he was dressed exactly like the other people who did assemble and burn the cross. But the man claims he did nothing wrong by being present while dressed like the other "peaceful protesters" who had gathered. He also additionally asserts it is a violation of his rights that law enforcement saw fit to profile white men running around wearing white sheets to obscure their clothing and identity.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on July 18, 2020, 05:55:37 PM
Here's one of the "snatch videos" from the 15th. Although this guy wasn't wearing a beanie, but was in a black helmet with face shield.

https://twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1283388065407533062

But on the flip side, here's what law enforcement had to deal with the night before, notice something about how that guy is dressed as compared to the self-described attire of the "poor victim" of federal snatchers on the 15th?
https://twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1283028708220186624
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on July 18, 2020, 06:12:38 PM
But on the flip side, here's what law enforcement had to deal with the night before, notice something about how that guy is dressed as compared to the self-described attire of the "poor victim" of federal snatchers on the 15th?
https://twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1283028708220186624

Correction, that evidently happened on the 11th, but the observation about "the uniform" for the agitators still stands.

If you dress like an agitator, and attend a venue where you know they'll be present, don't be surprised when you get treated like one.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on July 18, 2020, 07:04:11 PM
Protesting is not illegal - in fact, it is protected, in the constitution.  Dressing a certain way, especially in generic "black" is not probable cause.

Here's a hint - he was let go, without being charged (and according to what I read, without the stormtroopers having documented the arrest in any way whatsoever.)
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on July 18, 2020, 07:08:48 PM
http://archive.is/2jJ3J

PNW Youth Liberation Front (saved on 17 Jul 2020 16:10:57 UTC)
Quote
Dearrests work. Don't let the pigs snatch your friends.
We protect us.
Quote
(Portland Police @Portland Police)
Multiple warnings have been provided to vacate the street or be subject to arrest or force. At least one arrest has been made. Another arrest was attempted and others interfered and struggled with police to free the arrested subject.
(Can't seem to find the PPB twitter quote in question, lack of date stamps is frustrating. But considering the attention called to it, it probably was edited or deleted.)

Also informative:
https://twitter.com/PortlandPolice/status/1280245988347666432
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on July 18, 2020, 07:09:45 PM
Protesting is not illegal - in fact, it is protected, in the constitution.  Dressing a certain way, especially in generic "black" is not probable cause.

Here's a hint - he was let go, without being charged (and according to what I read, without the stormtroopers having documented the arrest in any way whatsoever.)

He says he was photographed(and presumably fingerprinted), so it was documented somewhere, he just wasn't given any information that would point him to where that documentation is.

Nice to know you'd defend a member of the KKK in full regalia for being arrested if he was apprehended in the vicinity of a cross burning.

I know I wouldn't, even though Klan Regalia isn't illegal either.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on July 18, 2020, 07:29:37 PM
I always thought that conservatives at least paid lip service to the constitution, to due process, and to the rule of law. I get that you have read that there were violent protesters, and that you (hopefully) believe that the violent protesters are in the majority.  But that is simply a function of the media you choose to believe.  Protesting loudly, and angrily, even if other people are being violent, is not probable cause.  Being in the same neighbourhood with hundreds of other people, doesn't somehow give carte blanche to even regular police - never mind completely anonymous, armed and masked thugs.

Seriously - this has nothing to do with whether someone wearing klan regalia is or is not legal.  I have no idea what the jurisprudence is on it, but I suspect that wearing a Klan hood is probably not considered probable cause.

And no, wearing black, in a crowd of other people wearing black, is in no way probable cause.  No more than being black is sufficient to provide probable cause.

But the bigger problem (aside from the whole lack of due process) is that the stormtroopers are completely untraceable, unidentifiable, armed, and unaccountable.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on July 18, 2020, 07:52:26 PM
I always thought that conservatives at least paid lip service to the constitution, to due process, and to the rule of law. I get that you have read that there were violent protesters, and that you (hopefully) believe that the violent protesters are in the majority.  But that is simply a function of the media you choose to believe.  Protesting loudly, and angrily, even if other people are being violent, is not probable cause.  Being in the same neighbourhood with hundreds of other people, doesn't somehow give carte blanche to even regular police - never mind completely anonymous, armed and masked thugs.

I think the violent/destructive protesters are a minority, probably fewer than 1 in 10. However of the remaining 9 in 10, another 2 of them are active co-conspirators in their activities. With the remaining 7 in 10 being a mix of the truly ignorant, the willfully ignorant, and the ones who know what's going on but decides to remain silent on it. (Remember "silence is violence?"  Those guys embody it.)

I believe in rule of law, and part of that rule of law in the United States include "probable cause" and everything reported about the circumstances of "these people" to date gives every indication that probable cause existed for their detention. You can split hairs over the specifics of how they were taken into custody, but I'm not seeing much of an issue with what I'm seeing right now.

Quote
Seriously - this has nothing to do with whether someone wearing klan regalia is or is not legal.  I have no idea what the jurisprudence is on it, but I suspect that wearing a Klan hood is probably not considered probable cause.

It's actually something I'd be halfway curious to see what Seratil has to chip in on this, if anything. But you are also ignoring the "other factors" that I was bringing into the mix: 1) They were present at the location the crime occurred. 2) They were dressed in the same manner as the offender. 3) They were apprehended while leaving the crime scene(specifics of how far they made it before being picked up not withstanding).

Again, I only see this as problematic if the people being picked up were either not present at the protest site, or had left the protest site before any criminal activity occurred.
 
Quote
And no, wearing black, in a crowd of other people wearing black, is in no way probable cause.  No more than being black is sufficient to provide probable cause.

It is if it makes you look like the guy who did commit a crime.

And unlike "being black" being used to pull someone over, being detained due to clothing choice is another matter entirely.

Quote
But the bigger problem (aside from the whole lack of due process) is that the stormtroopers are completely untraceable, unidentifiable, armed, and unaccountable.

Oh, I'm sure the leftist legal groups will be able to figure it out, it may take some discovery processes, but they'll get the information in time. Their cases also will likely go exactly nowhere even after they get that information. As the Federal Officers acted within previously recognized legal constraints even if the general public is unaware of them being as loose as they are.

But then again, I guess I need to remember we're talking 9th District Court here, so it might get somewhere, but SCotUS will likely toss it should the 9th try to make it go somewhere.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on July 18, 2020, 09:48:19 PM
I get it - conservatives don't actually care about the federal government acting in secret against citizens - so long as they are not the right citizens.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: Lloyd Perna on July 19, 2020, 06:58:39 AM
"Every precinct every town, burn the precinct to the ground"
https://twitter.com/IwriteOK/status/1284711244809637889?s=20 (https://twitter.com/IwriteOK/status/1284711244809637889?s=20)

Portland Police Association building set on fire.
https://twitter.com/GriffinMalone6/status/1284727455253553152 (https://twitter.com/GriffinMalone6/status/1284727455253553152)

If you are marching with this group, even if you don't yourself light something on fire or throw something at the police.  You are just as guilty as the ones that do.  You can't claim that you were just there to protest peacefully. And you shouldn't be surprised if you get arrested.



Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on July 19, 2020, 12:57:04 PM
If you are marching with this group, even if you don't yourself light something on fire or throw something at the police.  You are just as guilty as the ones that do.  You can't claim that you were just there to protest peacefully. And you shouldn't be surprised if you get arrested.

Pretty much my take on it, and where I was pointing towards with the klan comparisons.

If you're dressing like a member of AntiFa's "black bloc" while attending protests where vandalism and other acts of mayhem are being carried out by comparably dressed individuals, it is reasonable to not be shocked when you get caught up in a net looking for those people.

If I was a prosecutor, I'd probably be looking at "accessory" charges and maybe even investigate possible conspiracy charges although that has a higher bar to clear.

Much like the KKK had a "uniform" (their white robes/bed sheets) the Black Bloc has one too. Whether or not you want to agree on their being part of AntiFa or not is immaterial to all of the video evidence of such groups clearly operating at these types of protests.

Not every Klan member who attended a cross burning was party to either erecting, or igniting the cross. By the logic of the press with the current protests/riots, the Klansmen who simply "happened to be there" would be called "peaceful protesters" who just also happened to have the side effect of terrifying the people on whose land the flaming cross happened to be on. That certain klan members may have been throwing rocks, or otherwise trying to harm the building occupants is immaterial, they're meerly outliers, as most of those white garbed individuals were simply "making a peaceful political statement" which should not be confused with the violent acts of a minority of individuals.

Do note: I said above by the logic of the press with current events. I do NOT hold to those views, and feel that every "peaceful protester" who participated in such an event "in uniform" should have been charged as participants in the relevant crimes. And I'm all about equal application of the law, if you're admitting to routinely attending protests which has a known history of vandalism and violent acts attached to it, you're part of the problem, and should be charged accordingly as you're aiding and abetting the people carrying out those acts if you remain in the area once those things are known to have started happening.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on July 19, 2020, 03:13:45 PM
Someone I served with in the Navy brought this link up, although hilariously, he was trying to argue against what the Feds are doing.

A relevant quote from his link should be illuminating:

https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/arrest-vs-detention-how-tell-whether-you-ve-been-arrested-simply-detained.html
Quote
Although the extent to which officers restrain and intrude upon the suspect are key to the determination, there’s no bright line indicating the point at which a detention becomes an arrest. For instance, the use of handcuffs doesn’t automatically signal an arrest where there are concerns for officer or public safety.

In one case, officers handcuffed a suspect and placed him in the back of a squad car while they searched a house he had just visited. The appeals court held that their actions didn’t turn the detention into an arrest because they needed to avoid an escape attempt and to take precautions against potential violence. The court also found that it made sense to take the suspect back to the house because they knew that the search they were about to begin could implicate him. (United States v. Bullock, 632 F.3d 1004 (7th Cir. 2011).)

Seems very relevant to the situation in Portland, doesn't it?
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on July 19, 2020, 05:50:27 PM
If you are marching with this group, even if you don't yourself light something on fire or throw something at the police.  You are just as guilty as the ones that do.  You can't claim that you were just there to protest peacefully. And you shouldn't be surprised if you get arrested.
Except Pettibone wasn't walking with a group of people, never mind people setting things on fire.

Oh, and Here's a video of the stormtroopers beating on clearly marked medics standing over a body. Yes, parts of what they were wearing was black, so that's alright, then.

 (https://twitter.com/stoggrd/status/1282432033533210625)
I think the violent/destructive protesters are a minority, probably fewer than 1 in 10. However of the remaining 9 in 10, another 2 of them are active co-conspirators in their activities. With the remaining 7 in 10 being a mix of the truly ignorant, the willfully ignorant, and the ones who know what's going on but decides to remain silent on it. (Remember "silence is violence?"  Those guys embody it.)
And just where did you pull these statistics out of?
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on July 19, 2020, 07:27:53 PM
If you are marching with this group, even if you don't yourself light something on fire or throw something at the police.  You are just as guilty as the ones that do.  You can't claim that you were just there to protest peacefully. And you shouldn't be surprised if you get arrested.
Except Pettibone wasn't walking with a group of people, never mind people setting things on fire.

Except for when he was earlier that same morning. Or have you forgot the part where Pettibone himself said he had been at the protest until just after 2AM?
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on July 19, 2020, 07:46:41 PM
Oh, and Here's a video of the stormtroopers beating on clearly marked medics standing over a body. Yes, parts of what they were wearing was black, so that's alright, then. (https://twitter.com/stoggrd/status/1282432033533210625)

"Medics" who were doing exactly what besides standing over the guy? Your other issue is they were what? Guys with Red Electrical tape applied to their shirts and backpacks in a cross configuration, and had likely little more than basic first aid training? They are not part of any recognized aide organization, so they're SOL.

Further complicating things, and not in their favor is the matter that these guys are very good at, and very mindful of this thing called optics, and sadly the police aren't being very clever about countering it just yet. These clowns can also be found running around outfits that clearly mark them as being press as well, in the hopes that the drive-by media will see their (agitator) guy get attacked by the police in the hopes that they'll report on how they're going for reporters.

Selective editing, careful framing of situations, and otherwise playing on low intensity insurgency tactics to create exactly the response you are providing them. Is also very common, or did you just go with the meme-tastic response to the link I provided earlier where the Portland Police Bureau verified that they had seen every tactic outlined in the alleged "Hong Kong Protest primer" that someone shared with them, where leftists starting memes about how maybe the Portland Police are the baddies if they're experiencing the same thing as the Hong Kong police... While they completely ignore what the info graphic detailed. (I'll have to follow this up with another post and break the infographic down I guess)

Quote
I think the violent/destructive protesters are a minority, probably fewer than 1 in 10. However of the remaining 9 in 10, another 2 of them are active co-conspirators in their activities. With the remaining 7 in 10 being a mix of the truly ignorant, the willfully ignorant, and the ones who know what's going on but decides to remain silent on it. (Remember "silence is violence?"  Those guys embody it.)
And just where did you pull these statistics out of?

Because that's what the tactics of low intensity conflict would dictate for getting your agitators in and out with minimal numbers being caught(at least until you start going full-on crackdown like China did in Hong Kong). For every person who is doing something illegal, you need at least 2 other people present to provide active (but indirect) support to help ensure that they have a reasonable chance of getting away. Although the dynamics CAN shift if you have a large group present, as you only need 1 person on lookout "per direction of concern" rather than 1 lookout for every bad actor, so the scaling is a bit wonky.

And by "low-intensity conflict" in this case, it's at a lower level than anything the Military would normally call it. I guess another way you could frame it is "high intensity civil disruption" as they're being very careful about not crossing any line where the media is going to be unable to obfuscate or ignore what they're doing and instead fixate on the police.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on July 19, 2020, 08:07:25 PM
"Medics" who were doing exactly what besides standing over the guy? Your other issue is they were what? Guys with Red Electrical tape applied to their shirts and backpacks in a cross configuration, and had likely little more than basic first aid training? They are not part of any recognized aide organization, so they're SOL.
Not been to many demonstrations, or seen much coverage of demonstrations, have you?  Most demonstrations of this size are attended to by a cadre of volunteer medics.  Or did you think the federal stormtroopers were not just kidnapping protesters but are also providing medical assistance?

I still see you cannot just come out and say that anonymous, masked, unidentifiable and uncontrolled stormtroopers going around, beating up people and throwing them into unmarked vehicles is a bad thing.  What's wrong with having the name of the service to which they are associated plainly visible, vehicles plainly marked with identifying information including the name of the service, and having their faces visible for identification?

As an aside, it's not the police that are going around masked, unmarked, and unbadged.  It's the federal stormtroopers.

Quote
Because that's what the tactics of low intensity conflict would dictate for getting your agitators in and out with minimal numbers being caught(at least until you start going full-on crackdown like China did in Hong Kong).
Got it.  The proof of your conspiracy is simply your assumption that a conspiracy exists, in the way that you imagine it exists.  And because you have proven it to yourself, that excuses the government ignoring the constitution.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on July 19, 2020, 08:25:25 PM
Also informative:
https://twitter.com/PortlandPolice/status/1280245988347666432
Roles:
Quote
Peaceful Protester - Protesters who don't want to fight, but join hand-in-hand with frontliners, sometimes using their phones to film police aggression

Which is where the meme warriors fixate on "police aggression" and
/end rationality
as they then take that as a tacit admission of the Police admitting they're being aggressive. But you really need to take this in total. And IMO any "peaceful protester" in such a group, be they in Hong Kong, or Portland, who finds themselves in such a formation as this infographic details, needs to get out and do so quickly. By remaining, they're only "peaceful" by technicality. In all reality, I'd be calling them either "human shields" or "accomplices."

But that's a digression, let us continue.

Quote
Frontliner - Protesters who use umbrellas to guard against projectiles and cameras, while keeping hands free for when help is needed.
Shield Soldier - Frontliners who use wood boards, swim boards, or signs to form a first line of defense.
Nothing particularly nefarious just yet, I'd actually be mostly okay with a protest group with these guys present.

Quote
Designers - Protest supporters who make inspiring graphics, helpful infographics, or banners for protests.

Harmless enough, they're not a problem. So long as they're not "expressing themselves" on property that doesn't belong to them, or doing so on property they have permission to do so on.

Quote
Flag Bearer - uses signs or a phone to signal to protesters when police are advancing or attacking
Cop watch - Protest supporters who use phones to record violent police and document police tactics and weaponry
Within the context of Hong Kong, I could see this as very valid, but it moves into borderline nefarious when applied within the US. Police here in the US don't normally attack, they respond and they normally advertise their approach very clearly in advance anyway.

And the "cop watch" needing to "document tactics" is another gigantic concern. What kind of "peaceful protester" in the US need to be concerned with developing tactics or counter-tactics to respond to police actions in regards to protests in the US? Peaceful protesters don't. Agitators certainly do though, and they're expecting a violent police response because they're going to do everything they can to create such a response. But that's another set of roles.

But speaking of police tactics..
Quote
Online Comms - Online protesters who use social media apps like Signal and Telegram to report on police strategies and provide protesters with real-time updates.

In Hong Kong this makes a degree of sense, but in the United States?

Quote
Medic - protest supporters who are able to treat injuries or have materials to treat teargas exposure.

This one is borderline too, I can be down with treating injuries and other issues that invariably crop up with any kind of group activity with lots of people moving around. But treating tear gas exposure? That's moving into very different territory, especially in the US.

More concerning is the injuries that they're likely thinking about probably are not trips, strains, sprains, or fatigue issues. They're instead likely talking about injuries incurred after having a physical confrontation with police.

Quote
Barricader - protesters who build barricades out of found objects at strategic positions to block oncoming police and traffic that trails protesters.

....If this is going on at a "peaceful protest" you're attending, are you sure you're actually at a peaceful protest?

But now to the "fun ones" if the above wasn't exciting enough for you.

Quote
Fire Squads - protesters who use water and traffic cones to suppress and extinguish teargas canisters
Interesting...
Quote
Fire Mage - Protesters who come prepared to set fire to barricades and throw flammable projectiles.
I think we can say we're safely outside the scope of "peaceful protest" at this stage
Quote
Light Mage - protesters who use laser pointers to obstruct surveillance cameras, drones, and police visors.
What kind of peaceful protest needs that in the United States?
Quote
Range Soldiers - protesters who throw bottles, umbrellas, and trash to stop police from advancing.
Once again, well outside the bounds of peaceful protest, almost like they're seeking to provoke "a violent response" which will, of course, draw in those poor innocent "peaceful protesters" and allow people to scream about how the police are tyrants.

https://twitter.com/PortlandPolice/status/1283177811151208448
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on July 19, 2020, 09:00:48 PM
At this point, I have to take it as a given that you are fine with armed, masked, anonymous stormtroopers, serving the federal government.  Also, you are good with the federal government sending in these anonymous troops in the face of opposition by a state's elected government.  Oregon has ways of changing their government if the populace so desires.  Having federal stormtroopers dropped in isn't one of those ways.  Having federal stormtroopers provoking violent responses is also not how it is done.  I would like to say that i am truly surprised that conservatives are not just anti-rule-of-law, but anti-states-rights, but over and over, it seems like conservatives are all about the ends justifies the means, now.

Also, quoting "Hong Kong" tactics is quite literally not evidence that Pettibone, as just one example, was not simply rounded up by the Stasi for exercising his constitutional rights (even ignoring the lack of due process, of course).  Neither does it excuse the stormtroopers' tactics of beating people who are quite literally standing still and talking.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on July 19, 2020, 09:08:19 PM
BTW, does that work the other way?  If any of those masked, anonymous stormtroopers assaulted anybody, does that mean the rest of them should have immediately disbanded so as not to be guilty by association?
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on July 20, 2020, 12:26:22 AM
Let's venue change for a moment. how about Chicago, at a Columbus statue being protected by the Chicago PD.

https://twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1284581737725665282

Here we have peaceful protestors marching around the statue while Black Bloc members going full ham on performing Frontliner and Range Soldier roles against the officers trying to provoke a response. A Fire Mage even demonstrates their presence as well.

No Federal Police escalating things in Chicago from any reports I've heard about....
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on July 20, 2020, 12:58:56 AM
https://twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1284735095748820992

Fire Mages and Barricader's work on tandem before setting fire to the Portland Police Union Hall

---------------

https://twitter.com/FromKalen/status/1284748402224279553

"Light Mages" blinding a security camera at the Portland Federal Courthouse, plus someone taking shots at it with a pellet gun.
-------

https://twitter.com/FromKalen/status/1284736458566164481

"Fire Mages" using fireworks to try to provoke a response from DHS Agents.

--------
https://twitter.com/FromKalen/status/1284392900529278976

"Light mages" using green lasers and strobe light to blind cameras and any officers present as protesters advance on the Portland IRS Building.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDrake on July 20, 2020, 01:11:29 AM
Long thread, I know I only skimmed it. But if there is probable cause, I think the normal thing to do is to say "we have a warrant for your arrest" or "someone matching your description" or words of some kind. Not just grabbing somebody and throwing them in a van, and also where is the arrest or detention record documenting the probable cause?

Meanwhile certain conservatives think they should be able to walk around carrying rifles and not even be questioned. Isn't that more probable cause than attire?
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on July 20, 2020, 10:48:12 AM
Long thread, I know I only skimmed it. But if there is probable cause, I think the normal thing to do is to say "we have a warrant for your arrest" or "someone matching your description" or words of some kind. Not just grabbing somebody and throwing them in a van, and also where is the arrest or detention record documenting the probable cause?

Probable cause detention/arrest is a very different process than "I have a warrant" although the warrant also involves a probable cause aspect. Warrants are a more formalized form of the process, and typically involve investigation activities days/weeks/months or even years after either the crime occurred or evidence came to light, rather than minutes or hours after.

In order to have an arrest warrant, you need to know what the name of the person is. In the situation with the Portland protests, unless the LEO's are dealing with one of their "frequent flyers" that they interact with enough to be able to identify by sight. That means catching the person on site, or upon their leaving the area(and becoming "safe to detain") so they can identify the person by name.

Quote
Meanwhile certain conservatives think they should be able to walk around carrying rifles and not even be questioned. Isn't that more probable cause than attire?

Only if there were shootings taking place in the area the person was in at the time they were carrying and those shootings were reasonably believed to involve that kind of fire arm.

Remember, the argument here is:
1) A (Federal) Crime occurred. (If there is no crime, there is no probable cause for suspicion of committing a crime)
2) Someone matching the "general description" of the person who committed the crime was detained, after leaving the area where the crime occurred.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on July 20, 2020, 11:10:54 AM
At this point, I have to take it as a given that you are fine with armed, masked, anonymous stormtroopers, serving the federal government.  Also, you are good with the federal government sending in these anonymous troops in the face of opposition by a state's elected government.  Oregon has ways of changing their government if the populace so desires.  Having federal stormtroopers dropped in isn't one of those ways.  Having federal stormtroopers provoking violent responses is also not how it is done.  I would like to say that i am truly surprised that conservatives are not just anti-rule-of-law, but anti-states-rights, but over and over, it seems like conservatives are all about the ends justifies the means, now.

Okay, let us rewind the clock a bit. Take your pick, we can go back to the late 1950's and 1960's and talk about "Federal Stormtroopers" coming into the deep south to clean out system abuse of minority populations.

Or we can go into the 1970's and 1980's and the "Federal Stormtroopers" coming into New York City and some other areas to clean out Mafia corruption of the local law enforcement system.

Quote
Also, quoting "Hong Kong" tactics is quite literally not evidence that Pettibone, as just one example, was not simply rounded up by the Stasi for exercising his constitutional rights (even ignoring the lack of due process, of course).

And again, you're running a circular argument here. Pettibone said he was present at the Courthouse Protests. He further also admitted to being dressed like a member of the Black Bloc(although neither he, nor the reporter phrased it that way).

Both the Portland Police and the Federal Government claim acts of vandalism occurred at the Federal Courthouse. Destruction of Government Property is a crime under United States Code, which means the Federal Government can claim jurisdiction over the case, so Federal Agents can make arrests in the course of investigating such crimes.

Yes, Authoritarians and Tyrants are naturally going to criminalize destroying their stuff, but normal functional civil societies criminalize destruction of civil property as well.

As it was, he met the description (dressed like a member of the Black Block), he had the opportunity(he was where the vandalism happened), and quite possibly had the means to carry it out(although he probably would have ditched those tools). Presence at the very late night protest would also be a general indicator of having motive, given nobody who has attended these events over multiple nights(as he admitted to) is going to be able to claim ignorance as to what's going on at those "peaceful protests." So seems to me like a pretty strong probable cause case for being detained and searched.

Quote
Neither does it excuse the stormtroopers' tactics of beating people who are quite literally standing still and talking.

There's likely to be a far larger context surrounding what was going on there than those video clips demonstrate. Like probably the 5+ minutes prior to that where the Portland Police are using loud speakers announce they've declared the assembly to be unlawful due to fires being set, fire escapes to the Federal Building being blocked, etc and ordering them to vacate the area or be removed by force and/or arrested.

Yup, that "peaceful protester" was "just standing there" 6 minutes after being told by Police he needs to leave of be arrested.

Wailing on the guy isn't justified, but by the same token, at least with one of the news videos that was shown, there is an incongruity present. If the officer took a shot at the back of the knee of someone with a riot baton and the guy is still standing after being hit.... He wasn't being hit very hard. He'd have to be getting barely touched for that matter. It doesn't take much of a hit to the back of the knee to knock someone to the ground, and either that "innocent protester" is a world class boxer/MMA fighter, or he was getting "love taps" from that officer.

The officer was probably trying to scare the guy into moving on, rather than arresting him or escalating things further.

Sadly for that officer, a camera was rolling and the optics are horrible.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDrake on July 20, 2020, 11:16:39 AM
People are detained all the time because they match a description near a crime. They are interviewed on the street to determine whether they were actually involved, ID taken for potential later follow up, searched. The interviewing officers are identifiable as to what law enforcement agency they report to, people are not wordlessly taken into custody.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on July 20, 2020, 11:29:01 AM
People are detained all the time because they match a description near a crime. They are interviewed on the street to determine whether they were actually involved, ID taken for potential later follow up, searched. The interviewing officers are identifiable as to what law enforcement agency they report to, people are not wordlessly taken into custody.
This.

Also - this: Navy vet beaten by stormtroopers. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_2Lkb3h77Y)There isn't even a question of arresting him.  He's just standing there talking, and they start beating him, in the end breaking his hand and likely requiring surgery. It does bring up a few questionsAs an aside, why do you consider graffiti to be an affront to society, more so than the physical assault of a human being?  There was also the report of a fire leading to $5000 damage.  I can guarantee you that the surgery resulting from this assault will come up to far more than a $5000 bill, not to mention the pain and suffering whose costs cannot readily be factored in.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDrake on July 20, 2020, 11:36:46 AM
Aren't these pretty much the tactics that were being used in Hong Kong to stop anarchist protesters?
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: yossarian22c on July 20, 2020, 11:41:56 AM
Aren't these pretty much the tactics that were being used in Hong Kong to stop anarchist protesters?

Its a bit of a derail but I wouldn't classify most of the protesters in Hong Kong as anarchist. They are protesting their gradual descent into the authoritarian Chinese state.

And if these are the tactics the Chinese used are you saying its a good thing we're copying them? Because
there are few places I would rather* live than that authoritarian big brother nightmare.

*Edit, rather not live. China is the only country currently with concentration camps. Not a place I want to live or want my government to emulate.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on July 20, 2020, 11:50:41 AM
Its a bit of a derail but I wouldn't classify most of the protesters in Hong Kong as anarchist.

I'm pretty sure that the use of the word "anarchist" was ironic, given that we recently saw a document characterizing all protesters as, essentially, "violent anarchists" (Graffiti?  Violent anarchist. Disobeying stormtroopers?  Violent anarchist.  Walking dog without proof of vaccines?  Violent anarchist.)
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on July 20, 2020, 02:46:25 PM
People are detained all the time because they match a description near a crime. They are interviewed on the street to determine whether they were actually involved, ID taken for potential later follow up, searched. The interviewing officers are identifiable as to what law enforcement agency they report to, people are not wordlessly taken into custody.

They are interviewed on the street "where safety allows."

Given the tendencies of the Portland protesters, if they tried the interview the person in the street at that time, nothing productive would come of it. And in all probability put the officers at greater risk the longer they remained there.

If you believe differently, I think there are some very fine bridges for sale in some rather dubious locations.

Edit to add timeline of a prospective scenario where they went for a "interview in the street" option instead:

Less than 5 seconds in: Heckling from "concerned bystanders" starts.
3 minutes in: Officers are now surrounded by at least a dozen "concerned citizens, many of which are heckling the officers and encouraging the person they're trying to question to "tell them nothing."
Within 5 minutes: Physical Agitators arrive on site to escalate the situation and "de-arrest" the person they're questioning.

Brilliant investigatory approach there. You accomplished exactly nothing.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDrake on July 20, 2020, 03:20:44 PM
People are detained all the time because they match a description near a crime. They are interviewed on the street to determine whether they were actually involved, ID taken for potential later follow up, searched. The interviewing officers are identifiable as to what law enforcement agency they report to, people are not wordlessly taken into custody.

They are interviewed on the street "where safety allows."

Given the tendencies of the Portland protesters, if they tried the interview the person in the street at that time, nothing productive would come of it. And in all probability put the officers at greater risk the longer they remained there.

If you believe differently, I think there are some very fine bridges for sale in some rather dubious locations.

Edit to add timeline of a prospective scenario where they went for a "interview in the street" option instead:

Less than 5 seconds in: Heckling from "concerned bystanders" starts.
3 minutes in: Officers are now surrounded by at least a dozen "concerned citizens, many of which are heckling the officers and encouraging the person they're trying to question to "tell them nothing."
Within 5 minutes: Physical Agitators arrive on site to escalate the situation and "de-arrest" the person they're questioning.

Brilliant investigatory approach there. You accomplished exactly nothing.

So you haven't seen the videos of black people being detained in the street surrounded by an angry crowd. Interesting.

Quote
He was detained and searched. One man asked him if he had any weapons; he did not. They drove him to the federal courthouse and placed him in a holding cell, he said. Two officers eventually returned to read his Miranda rights and ask if he would waive those rights to answer a few questions; he did not.

Almost as suddenly as they had grabbed him off the street, the men let him go. The federal officers who snatched him off the street as he was walking home from a peaceful protest did not tell him why he had been detained or provide him any record of an arrest, he told The Post. As far as he knows, he has not been charged with any crimes. And, Pettibone said, he did not know who detained him.

Does that sound like a normal interaction between a suspect and law enforcement? Is it normal to detain someone and not tell them why they were being held?
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: Wayward Son on July 20, 2020, 04:26:50 PM
Quote
Okay, let us rewind the clock a bit. Take your pick, we can go back to the late 1950's and 1960's and talk about "Federal Stormtroopers" coming into the deep south to clean out system abuse of minority populations.

You know, Deamon, it really takes a lot of chutzpah to compare this action to civil rights abuses in the 60's, even in passing.

Back then, the local and state governments were beating, arresting, and worse to prevent people from protesting, and the Federal government came in to stop the government from doing it.

Today, the local governments are NOT beating, arresting, and worse to the Federal government's satisfaction, and so the Feds are coming in to do it instead, IN SPITE of the local and state government's protests.

They are not the same thing.  In fact, they are the opposite thing.  The local governments in the 60s were a bunch of bullies and thugs who thought they could beat the people into submission.  Today, it's the Feds who are the bullies and thugs.  You are using the actions that were meant to protect people from government bullies and thugs to justify the actions of government bullies and thugs.

Takes a lot of chutzpah...
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: Wayward Son on July 20, 2020, 05:07:51 PM
Quote
If you are marching with this group, even if you don't yourself light something on fire or throw something at the police.  You are just as guilty as the ones that do.  You can't claim that you were just there to protest peacefully.

Tell me, did you believe this during the Charlottesville Unite the Right rally?  When protestors came with clubs and shields and were beating other protestors?  When one of the protestors ran down a thirty-year-old woman in cold blood and hitting many more?  When Vanguard America's leaders lamely said that he was not a member and that "The shields seen do not denote membership" as they were "freely handed out to anyone in attendance," did you believe that they should have been held accountable, too?

I suppose you believe that every one of those people who came to protest the removal of the statues of Confederate generals were just as guilty as James Field and others.  That they all should have been arrested for assault and battery, murder and attempted murder.

After all, if you were marching with people who beat others up, you can't claim you were there to protest peacefully, no matter what you actually did.  So you believe the President really was lying through his teeth when he said there were "fine people on both sides," and really was standing with the racists and murderer.  Because by your reasoning, they were all as guilty as those who actually committed the violence, and should all be treated as such.

Personally I believe that people should be held accountable for their own actions, not the actions of others.  That some of the people came there just to peacefully protest, not to cause trouble, like the many church groups that were there.  But it appear that you disagree.

So, did you only recently realize what a bunch of criminals all those protestors at the Unite the Right rally really were, or is this something you always believed? ;)
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on July 20, 2020, 11:21:48 PM
Oh look, violent anarchist Moms (https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/20/us/wall-of-moms-portland-protest-trnd/index.html).
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on July 20, 2020, 11:42:52 PM
Oh look, violent anarchist Moms (https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/20/us/wall-of-moms-portland-protest-trnd/index.html).

Who left as soon as things turned violent. Also, nobody actually vetted the claim that they were actually in fact mothers. They said they were, and that was good enough for the MSM.

https://www.portlandoregon.gov/police/news/read.cfm?id=251010&ec=1&ch=twitter
Quote
On Sunday, July 20, 2020, people gathered in front of the Mark O. Hatfield Federal Courthouse in downtown Portland. Hundreds of people stood blocking SW 3rd Avenue while dozens of others tampered with the fence around the courthouse.

At about 9:40 p.m. people in the crowd breached the fence enough to allow access to the area fenced off. The crowd chanted and pulled at the fence for about ninety minutes. At about 11:20 p.m. federal law enforcement came out of the courthouse for a few minutes and attempted to repair the fence, then went back inside.

At about 11:35 p.m. people began climbing the fence and at about 11:43 p.m. people pulled down the fence allowing access to the area in front of the courthouse. Dozens of people with shields, helmets, gas masks, umbrellas, bats, and hockey sticks approached the doors of the courthouse. Federal law enforcement came out of the courthouse at about 11:50 p.m. and dispersed the crowd.

Over the next two hours hundreds of people wandered around downtown Portland many regrouping on SW 3rd Avenue in front of the courthouse, in the adjacent parks and around the Justice Center. At 1:31 a.m. a person climbed onto the northwest corner of the Justice Center to tamper with a security camera. At 1:34 a.m. people lit a fire within the portico in front of the federal courthouse. Others gathered around the fire adding wood and other debris to make it larger.

At 1:42 a.m. federal law enforcement came out of the courthouse, dispersed the crowd and extinguished the fire.

Portland Police were not present during any of the activity described. Portland Police did not engage with any crowds and did not deploy any CS gas.

Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on July 21, 2020, 06:42:00 AM
All those words, and not a single description of violence...even the stormtroopers seemed to have taken the night off.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: Lloyd Perna on July 21, 2020, 07:22:38 AM
Would you like some video?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoOIjI7u9jM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoOIjI7u9jM)
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on July 21, 2020, 10:22:30 AM
More violent anarchists (https://twitter.com/adjordan/status/1285450557340020738).

And here is the "wall of Moms" group marching before they got tear gassed (https://twitter.com/UnderAGraySky/status/1285240406058209286).

I am shocked that these people don't understand that by associating with other protesters, they are part of a violent conspiracy against the government.

Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: fizz on July 21, 2020, 11:50:18 AM
This (https://twitter.com/DonovanFarley/status/1284410621283328000) looks (https://twitter.com/DonovanFarley/status/1284411412672999425/photo/1) very violent. (Warning: NSFW)
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on July 21, 2020, 12:09:02 PM
And here is the "wall of Moms" group marching before they got tear gassed (https://twitter.com/UnderAGraySky/status/1285240406058209286).

I am shocked that these people don't understand that by associating with other protesters, they are part of a violent conspiracy against the government.

https://twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1285601432276803585

Bottom left corner of the shot, watch as one of those "moms" helpfully hands off a chunk of concrete to a protester who subsequently attempts to throw it.

Here's another "mom" trying to break through the fiberboard protecting the windows on the Federal Building:

https://twitter.com/selfdeclaredref/status/1285494543069204480
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on July 21, 2020, 12:12:26 PM
Also:
https://twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1285478456050855937

https://twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1285554323187879937
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: Lloyd Perna on July 21, 2020, 12:34:01 PM
Don't worry TheDeamon,  They just want to talk.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on July 21, 2020, 01:19:59 PM
Also:
https://twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1285478456050855937

https://twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1285554323187879937
Hmmm... is your point that some protesters are damaging property, and that there are even some protesters who are being violent?

I hope that wasn't a surprise...
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on July 21, 2020, 05:37:32 PM
https://www.portlandoregon.gov/police/news/read.cfm?id=251013

Quote
On July 20, 2020 large groups of people gathered in downtown Portland in Chapman Square Park and Lownsdale Square Park and in Waterfront Park near the Salmon Springs Fountain. At about 9:00 p.m. the crowds converged on SW 3rd Avenue outside the Justice Center and gave speeches. Cars, motorcycles and bicycles blocked streets around the crowd.

At about 10:15 p.m. the crowd walked through downtown streets eventually returning to the area of the Federal Courthouse around 11:30 p.m. The crowd grew and people began spray painting the Justice Center and Federal Courthouse. People tampered with and climbed on the gate leading under the Justice Center and pounded on plywood on the exterior of the building. They behaved similarly at the Federal Courthouse.

Several hundred people concentrated on the west side of the Federal Courthouse and dozens of them pounded on and began breaking the plywood covering the west side of the building. People were using hammers, crowbars and other pry tools. Many people could be seen carrying bats and shields, people wore helmets and gas masks. At about 12:45 a.m. on July 21, 2020, people broke through the plywood outside the courthouse and started pounding windows with metal objects, breaking at least one window. Hundreds of people were packed tightly in the portico on the west side of the courthouse pushing toward the entrance.

At about 12:38 a.m. federal law enforcement began dispersing the crowd using a variety of munitions. Many people in the crowd threw rocks, bottles, and other projectiles at the federal officers. People scattered into the surrounding blocks over the next twenty minutes. At one point a group of about seventy five people holding shields lined up across SW Main west of SW 3rd. They moved slowly toward the middle of the intersection but eventually broke up.

By 1:30 a.m. there were a few dozen people back on the courthouse portico throwing glass and plastic bottles, wood, pieces of metal, rocks and other debris at the building. People also lit fires in garbage cans, and near a tree by the courthouse.

At about 2:24 a.m. people lit a fire near a door on the SW Salmon Street side of the courthouse. Federal law enforcement put it out. At 2:29 a.m. people poured an accelerant on the plywood over the door on the front of the courthouse and ignited it. Federal officers dispersed the crowd using various munitions.

At 2:45 a.m. several dozen people blocked off SW Salmon Street at SW 5th Avenue with fencing and an assortment of other material stolen from nearby properties. People continued to light fires downtown including a fire on the awning and side of a building, at SW 4th Avenue and SW Yamhill Street, which required Portland Fire & Rescue to respond. At about 3:00 a.m. another fire was burning in the middle of the sidewalk north side of the County Courthouse, which required Portland Fire & Rescue response. Before they arrived people continually added flammable material to it causing it to grow and burn against the building. Portland Police responded to provide security for firefighters.

While Portland Police Officers were in the area of the County Courthouse a person threw a glass bottle at them, then fled.

At about 3:07 a.m. a caller reported that people had broken into a jewelry store in the 500 Block of SW 3rd Avenue. Portland Police responded and found the windows broken out and could see that valuables had been removed. Officers searched the area for the suspects. A vehicle fled the scene as officers investigated.

A caller reported that windows at City Hall were broken out.

Portland Police Bureau officers did not deploy CS gas and made no arrests.

Peaceful Protesters.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on July 21, 2020, 06:03:44 PM
You think those are peaceful protesters?  That's weird - maybe that's why you are OK with stormtroopers picking up random protesters without evidence of them having committed crimes.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: Lloyd Perna on July 21, 2020, 06:17:23 PM
How exactly do you know what evidence of crimes they might or might not have?  Please provide citations. I do not believe that the people they are picking up are random in any way.  As usual, you attribute the worst motives possible to anyone who doesn't agree with your politics.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on July 21, 2020, 07:18:41 PM
Well, the evidence is that they let many go without any charges being laid, and only hours later :) ... and of course, the other people that they simply assaulted without even arresting them - just used them as punching bags, without even a pretence of evidence of a crime.

All the while, you know, without being identifiable in any way, masked, without even a designation of what arm of the military or state to which they belong.

I continue to be bemused that conservatives are so adamant that the federal government should be able to use completely unaccountable, anonymous forces against the citizenry.  But then, conservatives used to pretend to care about deficits, and about not confirming judges in an election year, too...
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on July 21, 2020, 07:50:51 PM
Political processes have political solutions.

As to a lot of the rest. Have you considered the possibility that a number of us had a pretty good grasp of what Federal Powers and legal capabilities the Federal government already has, and that is perhaps a big reason why we keep jumping up and down screaming "please don't!" When Democrats start talking about introducing federal powers complete with new federal enforcement capabilities?

Funny how the Democrats are all about expanding Federal Enforcement capabilities, until they decide that Federal Enforcement activities happen to impact one of their favored groups, or can be used to make Republicans look bad.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDrake on July 21, 2020, 08:21:02 PM
Political processes have political solutions.

As to a lot of the rest. Have you considered the possibility that a number of us had a pretty good grasp of what Federal Powers and legal capabilities the Federal government already has, and that is perhaps a big reason why we keep jumping up and down screaming "please don't!" When Democrats start talking about introducing federal powers complete with new federal enforcement capabilities?

Funny how the Democrats are all about expanding Federal Enforcement capabilities, until they decide that Federal Enforcement activities happen to impact one of their favored groups, or can be used to make Republicans look bad.

Got an example? I don't doubt they exist, I just can't think of such a case. I mean, adding an additional federal law and enforcement of that law by the same agencies that enforce similar laws isn't the same thing as what we're talking about here. Though many conservatives consider it an expansion of federal power. So additional gun regulations, for example, wouldn't apply because we already have gun regulations and a federal agency responsible for it.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: Lloyd Perna on July 21, 2020, 08:22:49 PM
Well, the evidence is that they let many go without any charges being laid, and only hours later :) ... and of course, the other people that they simply assaulted without even arresting them - just used them as punching bags, without even a pretence of evidence of a crime.

All the while, you know, without being identifiable in any way, masked, without even a designation of what arm of the military or state to which they belong.

I continue to be bemused that conservatives are so adamant that the federal government should be able to use completely unaccountable, anonymous forces against the citizenry.  But then, conservatives used to pretend to care about deficits, and about not confirming judges in an election year, too...

Ok, you admit you have no actual knowledge about why these people were detained, what they were suspected of doing, what charges have been or may be in the future brought against any of them.  Basically your problem seems to be that you find these guys scary and they are trying to punish your political allies for the crimes they have committed and you don't like it.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on July 22, 2020, 11:58:25 AM
Last night looks to have been rather eventful in Portland. Broken windows at the Federal Building, and attempted arson of a government building among other things going by Twitter. Portland Police haven't posted their police log version of things, but given that all of what happened involved the feds, they may now be under pressure from their Mayor to not report on that stuff... Or there simply is that much to report on that it's taking longer than usual to compile, after their Mayor banned on-site Federal co-ordinators with the PPB, so the information flow is being hampered.

Edit: It's missing from the index for their news feed on their own site, but could find it via twitter:

https://www.portlandoregon.gov/police/news/read.cfm?id=251017
Quote
On July 21, 2020, several groups of people gathered throughout Portland to include Revolution Hall, City Hall, and Lownsdale and Chapman Squares. The groups marched and rallied for several hours. Around 9 p.m., most of the groups converged on Southwest 3rd Avenue outside the Justice Center and the Federal Courthouse. During this time, the large group of a couple thousand people blocked Southwest 3rd Avenue, danced, and made speeches.

Around 10:15 p.m., members of the group were spotted bringing plywood to the Justice Center. At 10:40 p.m., members of the group started to kick the front doors of Central Precinct while others dragged a large metal fence to the west side of the Federal Courthouse. At 11 p.m., several group members kicked and pounded on plywood attached to the west exterior glass doors of the Federal Courthouse. The people who kicked and pounded on the plywood were using hammers, crowbars and other pry tools. These people carried bats and shields as well as wore helmets and gas masks. Soon after, at 11:05 p.m., the group breeched the west side doors of the Federal Courthouse.

Such a moving display of "peaceful protest."

Quote
At 11:12 p.m., Federal Law Enforcement began dispersing the crowd using crowd control munitions.

Those jerks.  ::)

Quote
The group moved westbound on Southwest Main Street, but soon after, the group returned back to Southwest 3rd Avenue. When the group returned to Southwest 3rd Avenue and Southwest Main Street, they aggressively ran towards the portico on the west side of the Federal Courthouse. At 11:25 p.m., Federal Law Enforcement once again dispersed the crowd.

Around 12:30 a.m., group members once again converged on the west side of the Federal Courthouse. This time, the group set a fire outside the west side doors located on the portico. Federal Law Enforcement exited the building and began to disperse the crowd.

At 12:45 a.m., the group collected fences and road barricades and began advancing on the Federal Courthouse using pieces of the fence as a shield. When people reached the portico on the west side of the Federal Courthouse they began stacking up pieces of the fence and barricades, which created a hazard to those who needed to exit the building.

Around 1:00 a.m., some people associated with the group opened a fire hydrant at Southwest 3rd Avenue and Southwest Taylor Street and added soap to the water causing a hazard downtown. Some other people downtown set several small fires while other people vandalized and spray painted both city, federal, and private property. At 1:27 a.m., another fire was lit outside an exit door on the south side of the Federal Courthouse and the group successfully tore off a large piece of plywood protecting some glass doors on the west side of the building. At 1:45 a.m., Federal Police Officers once again were forced to disperse the crowd west from the building. During the dispersal, a large fire was started in the middle of Lownsdale Square.

Over the next several hours, Federal Police Officers continued to disperse the crowd westbound and the group slowly dissipated.

Portland Police were not present during any of the activity described. Portland Police did not engage with any crowds and did not deploy any CS gas. No arrests were made by Portland Police.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on July 23, 2020, 10:49:51 AM
In keeping with the Feds coming out on past nights to put out fires near the Federal building, Portland's Mayor winds up on the receiving end of Federal crowd dispersal efforts once they do decide to go out and douse the large fire just outside their building(and inside of their security perimeter). An overhead shot of the fire in question can be found at the top of the following article:

https://katu.com/news/local/tear-gas-deployed-mayor-ted-wheeler-in-the-middle-fire-outside-federal-courthouse

Quote
PORTLAND, Ore. — A pile of debris burned outside the federal courthouse late Wednesday night as Portland Mayor Ted Wheeler attended a nearby protest.

Tear gas was deployed at around that time and fireworks exploded near the courthouse and the Justice Center.

A KATU crew who was near the mayor when the tear gas was deployed said it was likely Wheeler got caught in the gas.

And there is news footage of the dear leader Mayor of Portland being right next to that fire as well...

But it wasn't very cozy for the Mayor when it came to the protesters either:

Quote
While many protesters were against Wheeler and said so, the crowded was largely accepting of his presence. But nearing midnight, the crowd turned on him. A reporter for the New York Times tweeted video of protesters swearing at the mayor as he entered a building with bodyguards struggling to keep protesters at bay.

Or for a more in depth look at parts of the incident:
https://katu.com/news/local/portland-mayor-ted-wheeler-experiences-federal-officers-tear-gas-at-protest
Quote
PORTLAND, Ore. — Mayor Ted Wheeler stood alongside protesters Wednesday night as federal officers unleashed tear gas on the crowd.

Portland Police Bureau said they declared the protest a riot at around 12:30 a.m.

Before that, they said Wheeler addressed the crowd outside the Justice Center at around 9:15 p.m. before he walked with them to the federal courthouse and stood with demonstrators at the fence.

Soon after, police say people in the group began throwing flares and other incendiaries over the fence on the west side of the federal courthouse and started a large fire.

Some people in the crowd breeched the fence while others kicked and shook it, police said. This resulted in federal officers coming out of the federal courthouse and using munitions to disperse the crowd.

Wheeler was likely hit with tear gas at around 11:15 p.m. KATU spoke to Wheeler before he reached the fence. We asked if he is still in communication with Acting Secretary of Homeland Security Chad Wolf and he said no. He said there's no more room for negotiation and the federal officers need to leave the city.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on July 23, 2020, 11:09:58 AM
Summary of events as per the Portland Police:
https://www.portlandoregon.gov/police/news/read.cfm?id=251017
Quote
On July 21, 2020, several groups of people gathered throughout Portland to include Revolution Hall, City Hall, and Lownsdale and Chapman Squares. The groups marched and rallied for several hours. Around 9 p.m., most of the groups converged on Southwest 3rd Avenue outside the Justice Center and the Federal Courthouse. During this time, the large group of a couple thousand people blocked Southwest 3rd Avenue, danced, and made speeches.

Around 10:15 p.m., members of the group were spotted bringing plywood to the Justice Center. At 10:40 p.m., members of the group started to kick the front doors of Central Precinct while others dragged a large metal fence to the west side of the Federal Courthouse. At 11 p.m., several group members kicked and pounded on plywood attached to the west exterior glass doors of the Federal Courthouse. The people who kicked and pounded on the plywood were using hammers, crowbars and other pry tools. These people carried bats and shields as well as wore helmets and gas masks. Soon after, at 11:05 p.m., the group breeched the west side doors of the Federal Courthouse.

At 11:12 p.m., Federal Law Enforcement began dispersing the crowd using crowd control munitions. The group moved westbound on Southwest Main Street, but soon after, the group returned back to Southwest 3rd Avenue. When the group returned to Southwest 3rd Avenue and Southwest Main Street, they aggressively ran towards the portico on the west side of the Federal Courthouse. At 11:25 p.m., Federal Law Enforcement once again dispersed the crowd.

At this point the Mayor departs the crowd shortly after midnight, now with the mayor no longer being available as an outlet...

Quote
Around 12:30 a.m., group members once again converged on the west side of the Federal Courthouse. This time, the group set a fire outside the west side doors located on the portico. Federal Law Enforcement exited the building and began to disperse the crowd.

At 12:45 a.m., the group collected fences and road barricades and began advancing on the Federal Courthouse using pieces of the fence as a shield. When people reached the portico on the west side of the Federal Courthouse they began stacking up pieces of the fence and barricades, which created a hazard to those who needed to exit the building.

Around 1:00 a.m., some people associated with the group opened a fire hydrant at Southwest 3rd Avenue and Southwest Taylor Street and added soap to the water causing a hazard downtown. Some other people downtown set several small fires while other people vandalized and spray painted both city, federal, and private property. At 1:27 a.m., another fire was lit outside an exit door on the south side of the Federal Courthouse and the group successfully tore off a large piece of plywood protecting some glass doors on the west side of the building. At 1:45 a.m., Federal Police Officers once again were forced to disperse the crowd west from the building. During the dispersal, a large fire was started in the middle of Lownsdale Square.

Over the next several hours, Federal Police Officers continued to disperse the crowd westbound and the group slowly dissipated.

Portland Police were not present during any of the activity described. Portland Police did not engage with any crowds and did not deploy any CS gas. No arrests were made by Portland Police.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDrake on July 23, 2020, 11:29:46 AM
Deamon, I think we know where you stand, maybe we don't need 9 updates daily on how evil the violent anarchist protesters are, and how bad they need to be smacked in the head with batons. 2nd amendment types (not you) talk about how important it is to be able to violently oppose an oppressive government. Maybe this is that.

Want them to stop being violent? Address their concerns! Make real reform! Crackdowns never work in the end when enough people oppose the government.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on July 23, 2020, 11:30:58 AM
For a hearing test, very faint given all of the near field sound("f--- Ted Wheeler" and "Ted how're you getting the feds out?") there is an announcement of "You are on Federal property..." (and if you look to the left in the background, you can see light being cast by a fire)

https://twitter.com/ByMikeBaker/status/1286183509543931904

Feds come out, and to add confusion to the scene, it appears that protesters are adding their own fireworks into the mix.
https://twitter.com/ByMikeBaker/status/1286183952697266176

If you follow the thread, you can see him eventually get gassed.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on July 23, 2020, 11:34:06 AM
So in summary - some people opened a fire hydrant (and added soap!!!) graffiti was committed, a few fires were lit, and some plywood was torn off.

And the feds gassed the mayor and police commissioner of Portland.  They did not, as of last reporting, throw him into an unmarked van.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on July 23, 2020, 11:40:36 AM
Deamon, I think we know where you stand, maybe we don't need 9 updates daily on how evil the violent anarchist protesters are, and how bad they need to be smacked in the head with batons. 2nd amendment types (not you) talk about how important it is to be able to violently oppose an oppressive government. Maybe this is that.

Want them to stop being violent? Address their concerns! Make real reform! Crackdowns never work in the end when enough people oppose the government.

If they had concerns which were either coherent, or realistic, there'd be something to work with. What they want is neither realistic, or coherent.

The Federal Government will not withdraw from the state of Oregon so long as Oregon remains part of the United States. And as local and state leaders don't seem to be pushing for secession(as there is no local support for that), there isn't much to work with there. So, that's an unrealistic request.

Which just leaves "Defund the police" which for many of those protesters actually means abolish the police, which isn't even a Federal Issue with regards to local law enforcement, and we're at another unrealistic and incoherent request. Protesting at a Federal Building for the abolition of the Local PD is quite pointless?

I guess you could claim there is a "police brutality" argument to be made with their crowd control methods, but again, we've got a coherency and image problem here.

The feds only come out when they either barricade fire exits, or set large fires in locations that are problematic for the federal building. If they're goal is to protest and to seek peaceful resolution of the situation, perhaps abandoning certain tactics would be a good first step on the part of the protesters.

It certainly would do them wonders in winning sympathy, if not support, over from people on the law and order side of things. But as it stands, they're not being peaceful. They're also not being non-destructive.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on July 23, 2020, 12:00:09 PM
So in summary - some people opened a fire hydrant (and added soap!!!) graffiti was committed, a few fires were lit, and some plywood was torn off.

Don't forget trespass, protesters entered a secured area without authorization.

This is also the second night(consecutive) where they've being doing the soapy fire hydrant thing. Thing to remember here is the earlier:

Quote
Flag Bearer - uses signs or a phone to signal to protesters when police are advancing or attacking
Cop watch - Protest supporters who use phones to record violent police and document police tactics and weaponry
Within the context of Hong Kong, I could see this as very valid, but it moves into borderline nefarious when applied within the US. Police here in the US don't normally attack, they respond and they normally advertise their approach very clearly in advance anyway.

And the "cop watch" needing to "document tactics" is another gigantic concern. What kind of "peaceful protester" in the US need to be concerned with developing tactics or counter-tactics to respond to police actions in regards to protests in the US? Peaceful protesters don't. Agitators certainly do though, and they're expecting a violent police response because they're going to do everything they can to create such a response. But that's another set of roles.

But speaking of police tactics..
Quote
Online Comms - Online protesters who use social media apps like Signal and Telegram to report on police strategies and provide protesters with real-time updates.

In Hong Kong this makes a degree of sense, but in the United States?

A fire hydrant isn't concerning, multiple fire hydrants becomes another matter. Chances are the soapy fire hydrant is a trial balloon to see what kind of response they're getting from it. It has potential to start escalating sooner rather than later. Agitators have potential to accomplish more mayhem regarding fires if they can deprive the municipal water system of sufficient water pressure for use as a fire main. Granted, that's going to take a LOT of hydrants assuming a minimum 16 inch main supplying the area. But it is possible.

The other aspect about the soap is it creates potential slip and fall hazards. Which is the more immediately useful thing for the protesters. If they open up the hydrants and "soap" most of the escape routes from an area, it creates all kinds of opportunity to "bad optics" when the Feds try to disperse a crowd which then has to slow down to contend with the slip and fall hazard.

And the feds gassed the mayor and police commissioner of Portland.  They did not, as of last reporting, throw him into an unmarked van.

Did they have reason to suspect him, or someone dressed like him, to have been direct party to either acts of destruction of federal property, or attacks on a federal officer? If not, they had no reason to do so, besides which, aside from that one night, there doesn't seem to be any new reports about such events taking place.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on July 23, 2020, 12:00:17 PM
What's "funny" is that the presence of the stormtroopers actually reinvigorated the protests in general, but the most especially the more radical protesters prone to illegal activities.

Having them leave would improve the situation, but what is the chance that the stormtroopers will be told to leave, even if it would improve the "security" situation?
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on July 23, 2020, 12:03:24 PM
At this stage, the only way this ends is they allow one or both of the federal buildings to be burned out.

The City of Portland trying to resolve it for over a month did nothing. The feds are only 3 weeks into their own presence, and the mis-step they made which energized things in a big way was the roadside snatchings.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDrake on July 23, 2020, 12:22:24 PM
Deamon, I think we know where you stand, maybe we don't need 9 updates daily on how evil the violent anarchist protesters are, and how bad they need to be smacked in the head with batons. 2nd amendment types (not you) talk about how important it is to be able to violently oppose an oppressive government. Maybe this is that.

Want them to stop being violent? Address their concerns! Make real reform! Crackdowns never work in the end when enough people oppose the government.

If they had concerns which were either coherent, or realistic, there'd be something to work with. What they want is neither realistic, or coherent.

The Federal Government will not withdraw from the state of Oregon so long as Oregon remains part of the United States. And as local and state leaders don't seem to be pushing for secession(as there is no local support for that), there isn't much to work with there. So, that's an unrealistic request.

Which just leaves "Defund the police" which for many of those protesters actually means abolish the police, which isn't even a Federal Issue with regards to local law enforcement, and we're at another unrealistic and incoherent request. Protesting at a Federal Building for the abolition of the Local PD is quite pointless?

I guess you could claim there is a "police brutality" argument to be made with their crowd control methods, but again, we've got a coherency and image problem here.

The feds only come out when they either barricade fire exits, or set large fires in locations that are problematic for the federal building. If they're goal is to protest and to seek peaceful resolution of the situation, perhaps abandoning certain tactics would be a good first step on the part of the protesters.

It certainly would do them wonders in winning sympathy, if not support, over from people on the law and order side of things. But as it stands, they're not being peaceful. They're also not being non-destructive.

Well, here's the problem after repeated incidents of unarmed people being shot, people running away getting shot, people getting choked, tazed and beaten, with plenty of polite objections and more peaceful protests, nothing happened. Kaepernick took a knee and was reviled for it by nearly everyone in power, and accomplishing nothing. So don't you think perhaps they are going to their last resort, just as the Sons of Liberty did when they started tarring and feathering government officials?
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: Lloyd Perna on July 23, 2020, 01:36:13 PM
https://twitter.com/BonnieSilkman/status/1286170974606389249 (https://twitter.com/BonnieSilkman/status/1286170974606389249)

Their demands have been made.

Does anyone actually believe ANY of those are going to happen?
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on July 23, 2020, 01:42:40 PM
https://www.cato.org/blog/poll-62-americans-say-they-have-political-views-theyre-afraid-share

Quote
A new Cato Institute/​YouGov national survey of 2,000 Americans finds that 62% of Americans say the political climate these days prevents them from saying things they believe because others might find them offensive. This is up from 2017 when 58% agreed with this statement. Majorities of Democrats (52%), independents (59%) and Republicans (77%) all agree they have political opinions they are afraid to share.­­

Strong liberals stand out, however, as the only political group who feel they can express themselves: 58% of staunch liberals feel they can say what they believe.

Of note in general, every category reported an increase over the 2017 numbers.
Strong liberals saw the biggest jump, from 30% reporting the need to self-censor to 42% now, a 12 point jump.
Liberals(45% to 53%), Moderates(57% to 64%), and conservatives(70% to 77% all saw 7 point jumps.

Strong conservatives oddly saw the smallest increase, but that is hardly re-assuring, as they moved from 76% to 77% which means Strong Conservatives are on par with normal Conservatives on feeling the need to self-censor.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on July 23, 2020, 01:44:14 PM
https://twitter.com/BonnieSilkman/status/1286170974606389249 (https://twitter.com/BonnieSilkman/status/1286170974606389249)

Their demands have been made.
  • Defund the Portland Police Bureau (PPB) by at least 50% and “reinvest into the communities, especially the black community.”
  • Free all protesters from jail
  • Get federal law enforcement officers out of Portlandl
  • Force Wheeler to resign

Does anyone actually believe ANY of those are going to happen?

And how do you know that she(or the people running the projector) actually speaks for the collective on this? Remember, "AntiFa isn't an organization" so as such, there is no group organizing what their demands actually are.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: Lloyd Perna on July 23, 2020, 01:53:50 PM
This list was being projected on the Justice Center by protesters while Mayor Wheeler was addressing the crowd.  Looks like a BLM logo on it?  How does anyone know they "speak for the collective"?  Isn't that part of the problem with the idea of just giving them what they want? 

I think the vast majority of them have no idea what they want, they just want to be considered "Woke" by their peers which enables extremists to use them for their own ends.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on July 23, 2020, 02:00:59 PM
The "Light Mages" now have at least three LEO victims.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/portland-riots-federal-officers-blinded-lasers-fireworks-doxed

Quote
“When officers responded to put out these fires, glass bottles were thrown and lasers – which can cause permanent blindness – were shined in their eyes,” Cline said. “We have three officers who currently have eye injuries and they may not recover sight in those eyes from those laser attacks.”

The FPS has purchased anti-laser glasses that federal officers are now wearing to prevent eye injuries.

Federal officers responded by deploying pepper balls and tear gas. Cline said officers observed one individual taking pictures of a water intake system to the Edith Green Federal Building, which is also under FPS protection. Earlier in the evening Monday night, a Twitter user said “So we can shut off the water to the buildings the feds are staying in to make it a nightmare for them.”

Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDrake on July 23, 2020, 02:11:27 PM
The "Light Mages" now have at least three LEO victims.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/portland-riots-federal-officers-blinded-lasers-fireworks-doxed

Quote
“When officers responded to put out these fires, glass bottles were thrown and lasers – which can cause permanent blindness – were shined in their eyes,” Cline said. “We have three officers who currently have eye injuries and they may not recover sight in those eyes from those laser attacks.”

The FPS has purchased anti-laser glasses that federal officers are now wearing to prevent eye injuries.

Federal officers responded by deploying pepper balls and tear gas. Cline said officers observed one individual taking pictures of a water intake system to the Edith Green Federal Building, which is also under FPS protection. Earlier in the evening Monday night, a Twitter user said “So we can shut off the water to the buildings the feds are staying in to make it a nightmare for them.”

Well, maybe they should stop beating on people and expecting them not to fight back.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: yossarian22c on July 24, 2020, 09:45:31 AM
https://www.npr.org/sections/live-updates-protests-for-racial-justice/2020/07/23/894953202/order-temporarily-blocks-feds-from-targeting-press-and-legal-observers-in-portla (https://www.npr.org/sections/live-updates-protests-for-racial-justice/2020/07/23/894953202/order-temporarily-blocks-feds-from-targeting-press-and-legal-observers-in-portla)

Quote
A federal judge has temporarily blocked federal law enforcement officers deployed to Portland, Ore., from targeting journalists and legal observers at the protests against police violence and racial injustice that have intensified in recent days.
...
The order details several examples of journalists, identifiable by press passes, clothing and gear, being fired upon, pepper sprayed and hit with batons by federal agents. They described being shot with pepper balls and what are identified as "less lethal munitions."

In one instance, Noah Berger, a photojournalist of 25 years on assignment for the Associated Press, describes being attacked repeatedly by federal agents with batons and pepper spray, even as he was clearly not participating in the protest and, in a later incident, leaving the area.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on July 24, 2020, 10:54:20 AM
Quote
In one instance, Noah Berger, a photojournalist of 25 years on assignment for the Associated Press, describes being attacked repeatedly by federal agents with batons and pepper spray, even as he was clearly not participating in the protest and, in a later incident, leaving the area.

Funny thing about this one, they're appealing to authority by citing Noah Berger's "25 years of experience" but ignore the more im iportant question:

How much experience does Noah Berger have in providing coverage in areas where civil strife and conflict is actively ongoing? And by "Civil strife" I mean riots, or civil wars?

It is my understanding, through reporting from a person who did cover civil unrest in person in Egypt, Ukraine, and a number of other locations, the major media outlets typically have a class(which he'd gone through) which those outlets required before sending them over seas into "hot zones." A requirement that many news outlets have likely been ignoring when it comes to events here in the US.... Especially if they've been buying into the whole hogwash reporting that's been going on about the protests in Portland being peaceful.

One of those things that class would teach a reporter is there are two places you do NOT want to be when violence is considered likely.
1) With the protesters. (You'll get hit with crowd control munitions)
or
2) In the immediate vicinity of the police. (You'll get hit with what the protesters are throwing at the police)

You either setup "well back" from the front lines of which-ever side you're reporting from. (Admittedly, getting behind the Federal Police lines is not possible in this case, as they're holing up inside buildings) Or you find somewhere that is perpendicular to the "protest line" and the "police line" and provide your coverage from there.

If you setup in the crowd, and the crowd gets violent, don't be shocked when you get hit with riot controls.

When they're using crowd control munitions, they're not going to be able to read/vet "your press credentials" from 20+ feet away, and anything they're likely to be able to see from 20+ feet away is also able to be faked, so watch out, and AntiFa has already demonstrated a willingness to either impersonate the press, or assert they are a member of the press even as they're being anything but a "neutral observer" like the press is allegedly supposed to be.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: yossarian22c on July 24, 2020, 12:21:56 PM
Quote
In one instance, Noah Berger, a photojournalist of 25 years on assignment for the Associated Press, describes being attacked repeatedly by federal agents with batons and pepper spray, even as he was clearly not participating in the protest and, in a later incident, leaving the area.
...
One of those things that class would teach a reporter is there are two places you do NOT want to be when violence is considered likely.
1) With the protesters. (You'll get hit with crowd control munitions)
or
2) In the immediate vicinity of the police. (You'll get hit with what the protesters are throwing at the police)
...

There were other antidotes as well.

Quote
The order also detailed the story of photojournalist Jungho Kim, who has covered protests in California and Hong Kong and has experience "distinguishing himself from a protester." Kim was recording protesters on the scene when federal agents pushed them away from the area.

"He was around 30 feet away from federal agents, standing still, taking pictures, with no one around him," reads the order. "He asserts that suddenly and without warning, he was shot in the chest just below his heart with a less lethal munition. Because he was wearing a ballistic vest, he was uninjured. He also witnessed, and photographed, federal agents firing munitions into a group of press and legal observers."

Trump didn't send in the Feds to deescalate. Trump needs violence from these protests to scare people into voting for him.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on July 25, 2020, 02:29:08 PM
https://www.npr.org/sections/live-updates-protests-for-racial-justice/2020/07/24/895285174/judge-denies-oregons-request-for-restraining-order-against-federal-officers

Quote
Mosman noted that the state presented only two examples as evidence, despite painting a picture in its complaint of "numerous protesters being seized from the streets of Portland by unidentified agents."

He also said that the state did not present evidence of any official orders or policies behind the seizures, nor any evidence that they are in widespread use.

Mosman noted that it is not unusual for people involved in major protests to allege that police crossed a "constitutional line" in their interactions with protesters, and for some of those people to file lawsuits seeking money damages and injunctive relief.

"There is a well-established body of law paving the way for such lawsuits to move forward in federal court," he wrote. "This is not such a lawsuit."

And to correct the record on the "unidentified federal agents" line from a week ago?

They're not.

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/07/unidentified-federal-agents-detaining-protesters-in-portland.html

Oddly enough, that "NZ39" on the guy's shoulder in the headline image? That's his badge number.
The insignia below that identifies the unit he is attached to.

Which isn't to mention the whole "POLICE" markings on the front and back of his tactical uniform.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on July 26, 2020, 10:05:01 AM
https://twitter.com/PortlandPolice/status/1287251924421505027

Quote
PPB has seen a number of people purporting to be “media” or “press” who are not in recent weeks. This is concerning and takes away from legitimate media efforts.

And as a catch up on the other summaries:
Morning of July 24:
https://www.portlandoregon.gov/police/news/read.cfm?id=251024

Morning of July 25:
https://www.portlandoregon.gov/police/news/read.cfm?id=251027
New highlight as the Feds had a more effective fence in place:
Quote
At 10:58 p.m. people began shaking the fence surrounding the Federal Courthouse. Others shot fireworks over the fence. Federal law enforcement gave announcements over a public address system. At about 11:04 p.m. federal law enforcement came out in front of the Federal Courthouse and attempted to disperse the crowd using various munitions.

Many in the crowd had gas masks, shields, leaf blowers, power tools, fireworks and lasers. Hundreds of people remained along the fence attempting to pull or push it over. Some attempted to cut the fence with power tools. People shot fireworks and threw objects over the fence at federal law enforcement. This activity went on at varying levels of intensity for over three hours.

There are other videos showing people working on the fence with welding equipment trying to cut their way through it.

Morning of July 26:
https://www.portlandoregon.gov/police/news/read.cfm?id=251030

Quote
A group of about two hundred gathered outside the Portland Police Association offices in north Portland. They blocked N. Lombard Avenue for about an hour. They used cars and trucks to block adjacent streets. People from this group pulled sections of a chain link fence across N. Lombard Ave. Portland Police gave public address announcements to clear the street to allow traffic through. Because of the fencing and crowd blocking the street, Portland Fire & Rescue had to reroute emergency vehicles responding to a residential fire nearby. Slowly this group broke up and walked out of the neighborhood.
And the escalation of efforts to defeat the perimeter fence continued, the protesters won:
Quote
The largest group gathered on SW 3rd Avenue outside the federal courthouse and the Justice Center and the nearby parks and streets. There were thousands gathered. Throughout the night some people in this crowd spent their time shaking the fence around the building, throwing rocks, bottles, and assorted debris over the fence, shining lasers through the fence, firing explosive fireworks into the area blocked by the fence, and using power tools to try to cut through the fence. People wore gas masks, carried shields, hockey sticks, leaf blowers, flags, and umbrellas specifically to thwart police in crowd dispersal or attempt to conceal criminal acts. People against the fence sprayed unknown liquids through it toward the courthouse. People tied rope to the fence and attempted to pull it down.

This activity continued as thousands remained outside along SW 3rd Avenue for hours.
At about 1:03 a.m. people in the crowd attached a chain to the fence and with many people pulling managed to pull a section of it down. People began lighting fires along SW 3rd Avenue. People climbed over the fence to get close to the federal courthouse. People continued to launch mortar style fireworks at ground level that were exploding near others.

But something else returned to the menu for the Portland Police last night:
Quote
Portland Police declared a riot based on the conduct of people in the crowd and gave repeated warnings that anyone who remained may be subject to arrest or citation and may be subject to force including impact weapons or tear gas.
In previous weeks that was typically a warning that the Federal Agents might use tear gas...
Quote
During that time people threw bottles, paint balloons, and other debris at Portland Police officers. People shot mortar style fireworks as Portland Police officers from ground level and from parking garages. Portland Police used munitions, including CS gas.

/gasp

Quote
Portland Police disengaged from the crowds at about 2:25 a.m. to see if people would keep leaving the closed area. Over the next hour, the groups mostly dissipated. Several arrests were made during the dispersal. This release will be updated as information becomes available.

 ??? ::)
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: LetterRip on July 26, 2020, 12:21:18 PM
PPB doesn't determine who 'press' are, the Constitution and SC rulings do.  Bloggers are legally press/journalists and enjoy both their protections and privileges https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2014/01/us-court-bloggers-are-journalists/283225/

Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on July 26, 2020, 01:46:49 PM
PPB doesn't determine who 'press' are, the Constitution and SC rulings do.  Bloggers are legally press/journalists and enjoy both their protections and privileges https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2014/01/us-court-bloggers-are-journalists/283225/

So anyone with a twitter, facebook, or twitch account that either "blogs" or streams from the protest is now a member of the press corps?

You just set the bar so low that anyone with a smartphone in hand should be considered part of the press.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: LetterRip on July 26, 2020, 03:05:10 PM
So anyone with a twitter, facebook, or twitch account that either "blogs" or streams from the protest is now a member of the press corps?

No, if they post cat pics, recipes, etc. probably not. If they are describing and reporting on the protests - probably yes.

Quote
You just set the bar so low that anyone with a smartphone in hand should be considered part of the press.

The courts set the bar.  I don't see how it could be set any other way though.  Some reporting by unpaid volunteers is vastly superior to commercial reporting. I'd probably be ok with requirements reasonable efforts at fact checking etc.  Of course those same would apply to all news sources.

If the blogger or vlogger breaks the law they will be prosecuted like any other criminal just as any other press
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: Fenring on July 26, 2020, 04:06:01 PM
LR, if that argument holds water then it also nullifies any relevance to mentioning "press members" being detained or harassed. If anyone is press then it means nothing.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on July 26, 2020, 10:59:36 PM
LR, if that argument holds water then it also nullifies any relevance to mentioning "press members" being detained or harassed. If anyone is press then it means nothing.

And creates all kinds of fun when the person in question puts away the phone to start doing some property destruction and/or violence of their own before pulling their phone out again to resume "reporting."

They're press, you can't touch them, right?

Portland Police has observed people doing that already.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: NobleHunter on July 27, 2020, 09:27:29 AM
If there's no independent verification, then the more accurate phrasing is "Portland Police claims to have observed people doing that."
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDrake on July 27, 2020, 10:58:15 AM
I think I get it, Deamon. Smash them all. The ones throwing bottles, setting fires, standing near them, dressing like them, standing a block away, trying to stop them, etc. If anyone takes any violent actions then it is open season on anyone and everyone to get tossed into vans, even if they are medics or members of the unambiguous press. Is that about right?
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on July 27, 2020, 01:42:11 PM
If there's no independent verification, then the more accurate phrasing is "Portland Police claims to have observed people doing that."

There has been, you just had one such example of that in this very thread. Protesters are dressing as press in an attempt to avoid being on the receiving end of police actions.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: NobleHunter on July 27, 2020, 01:51:51 PM
https://twitter.com/PortlandPolice/status/1287251924421505027

Quote
PPB has seen a number of people purporting to be “media” or “press” who are not in recent weeks. This is concerning and takes away from legitimate media efforts.

That's not the same as " the person in question puts away the phone to start doing some property destruction and/or violence of their own before pulling their phone out again to resume 'reporting.'"
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on July 27, 2020, 08:28:27 PM
https://twitter.com/wokal_distance/status/1287688790400614400
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: NobleHunter on July 27, 2020, 08:47:40 PM
https://twitter.com/wokal_distance/status/1287688790400614400

I wonder what this guy's opinion on the Hong Kong protests were. Or are organized protests only good when foreigners do them?
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: wmLambert on July 27, 2020, 09:31:16 PM
What a wasted thread. No one argues for sanity - only for personal interests and how they can spin activists rioting and looting and make it into an accusation against Trump. There are no John Lennons and Yoko Onos urging peace against war - only mealy-mouthed pretense that it is all about racial justice, and in the process stopping all the betterment in racial relations that has been ongoing.

...But that's the strategy. They can't regain political power when the other side does all the right things, so they do the best they can to sabotage and make things look bad.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: Wayward Son on July 28, 2020, 11:23:56 AM
I'm sorry if showing Navy veterans being beaten with a club for asking a question, or 14-year-old girls being piled on by helmeted thugs (https://twitter.com/pcbrynn/status/1287745837393641473?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1287745837393641473%7Ctwgr%5E&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Ffreethoughtblogs.com%2Fpharyngula%2F) is just us trying to "make things look bad."  (I loved how that one officer tried to step on her hand while looking around, just to help restrain her.) For most people, they make things look bad without explanation.

Now here's a question to contemplate:  how could Trump threaten to send almost 70% of the DHS officers to cities to quell riots?  How could the normal tasks at DHS be performed with so many personnel diverted from their regular jobs?

Macus Ranum has a simple solution: (https://freethoughtblogs.com/stderr/2020/07/26/oooo-that-smell-cant-you-smell-that-smell/)  many (if not most) of these guys may be hired mercenaries--aka "Blackwater."

Makes sense.  Hire extra law enforcement personnel to cover the short-term increase.  Who cares if they are not trained police officers.  They are fighting criminals, after all.  If a few laws are unintentionally (or intentionally due to special circumstances) broken, who cares?  Order must be preserved.  Protests must be quelled.  Rights are secondary.

So when you look at these videos of people being beaten-up and hauled into unmarked vans, remember that you may not be seeing actual police officers holding the "thin blue line."  They very well may be hired mercenaries, similar to those who kept order in so well in countries like Iraq and Afghanistan.  Just think: your sons and daughter may soon be treated as well as we treated the Iraqis and Afghanistan.  Just warms your heart, doesn't it? 

Or something down around your gut...
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on July 28, 2020, 12:00:46 PM
I'm sorry if showing Navy veterans being beaten with a club for asking a question, or 14-year-old girls being piled on by helmeted thugs (https://twitter.com/pcbrynn/status/1287745837393641473?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1287745837393641473%7Ctwgr%5E&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Ffreethoughtblogs.com%2Fpharyngula%2F) is just us trying to "make things look bad."  (I loved how that one officer tried to step on her hand while looking around, just to help restrain her.) For most people, they make things look bad without explanation.

As a Navy veteran, nothing about having served renders a person immune from being stupid.

Standing around to peacefully "Ask a question" after having just heard multiple orders over several minutes to disperse and vacate the area due to the assembly being declared "unlawful"(a riot) isn't very bright. And his Navy training, if he bothered to remember any of it, should have told him that hanging around was not a good idea. Then again, I guess he could have been a pit snipe, in which case he probably never received that portion of force protection training, as he'd never be standing any of those types of security watches. Although he should have received the training on "situational awareness" all the same as that would have applied to personal liberty excursions off the ship in foreign ports, and the pit snipes did get that training....
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: yossarian22c on July 28, 2020, 12:06:29 PM
I'm sorry if showing Navy veterans being beaten with a club for asking a question, or 14-year-old girls being piled on by helmeted thugs (https://twitter.com/pcbrynn/status/1287745837393641473?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1287745837393641473%7Ctwgr%5E&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Ffreethoughtblogs.com%2Fpharyngula%2F) is just us trying to "make things look bad."  (I loved how that one officer tried to step on her hand while looking around, just to help restrain her.) For most people, they make things look bad without explanation.

As a Navy veteran, nothing about having served renders a person immune from being stupid.

Standing around to peacefully "Ask a question" after having just heard multiple orders over several minutes to disperse and vacate the area due to the assembly being declared "unlawful"(a riot) isn't very bright. And his Navy training, if he bothered to remember any of it, should have told him that hanging around was not a good idea. Then again, I guess he could have been a pit snipe, in which case he probably never received that portion of force protection training, as he'd never be standing any of those types of security watches. Although he should have received the training on "situational awareness" all the same as that would have applied to personal liberty excursions off the ship in foreign ports, and the pit snipes did get that training....

So the appropriate response for one man standing around after being asked to leave is to break his hand instead of arrest him?
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on July 28, 2020, 12:20:44 PM
So the appropriate response for one man standing around after being asked to leave is to break his hand instead of arrest him?

Breaking his hand was a disproportionate response, and not appropriate.

His having his hand broken however, does not retroactively make his own behavior appropriate either.

Both sides were in the wrong on that one.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on July 28, 2020, 12:31:13 PM
So, because men in camouflage assaulted a man in plain sight, and other men wearing camouflage did nothing to stop the attackers, all camouflage-wearing men in the area should then have immediately dispersed and gone home, so as not to be confused for the attackers - or risk immediate arrest, and detention in unmarked vehicles, correct?
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: Wayward Son on July 28, 2020, 12:34:13 PM
No one, I think, is arguing that either side are "saints."  The rioters definitely need to be quelled.  The destruction and violence by some of the protesters must be addressed and stopped.

But the response has not been appropriate.  Police have been overreacting, if not outright being thugs.  And while I do not condone lawlessness on the part of the rioters, I am not responsible for it.  We have even seen some protesters trying to quell the rioters themselves.  (See, for example, the link to the guy who was ready to attack police with a hammer from earlier in this thread.  Did everyone notice the woman who was there who tried to pull the guy away from the door before the police burst out?  Compare that to the police who walked over the 70-yr-old man bleeding from his ear...)  The actions of some do not condemn everyone.

However, we are all partially responsible for the actions of the police.  They are our legal representatives.  They are acting on our behalf, with our authorization.  If they act in a lawless fashion, we are responsible to put an end to it.

Condemning the actions of the rioters is a given.  That is why we have police.  But we must not excuse lawless or inappropriate actions of the police just because  there are actions by the "other side" that are wrong.  Two wrongs don't make a right, you don't have to ignore the law to uphold it, and we have some control and responsibility for the actions of the police.

Remember, taking responsibility for the actions of the police is what these protests are all about.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on July 28, 2020, 12:39:02 PM
It really isn't a stretch to think that this is exactly the response that Trump wanted when sending in the stormtroopers - violent video that can be used to rile up his base against protesters and especially against BLM which is becoming more and more popular with the general population, video which Trump is now using in campaign spots.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: wmLambert on July 28, 2020, 12:39:33 PM
As we all know, but a few here try to explain away, The Left is responsible for the attacks in all the Democrat-run cities, and they are funded by George Soros and other sponsors of anti-American activists - the rioters and looters. In proof of that see https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2020/07/breaking-exclusive-early-july-blm-contributions-moved-tides-center-george-soros-linked-entity/. Black Lives Matter is not about George Floyd or racial justice, it is about taking down the President by sabotaging the economy, the same way that The Wuhan Flu is being used.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on July 28, 2020, 12:41:48 PM
Whenever you say something like "As we all know", you generally follow that opening with something that most people know to be untrue... your consistency is commendable.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: Wayward Son on July 28, 2020, 12:50:47 PM
The main problem, wm, is that the most obvious anti-American activities going on right now are from Trump, sending in unidentified para-military troops to beat and arrest people in unmarked vans, in spite of the pointed objections of the local mayors and governors--actions that seem far more natural in a dictatorship than in a democracy.

And while conspiracy theories about BLM and the Trump Virus seem natural, the dead bodies from both are proof that they aren't some manufactured crises.  They are very few people that will give their lives to make Trump look bad.  (He does that so well himself. :) )
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: wmLambert on July 28, 2020, 01:10:42 PM
Whenever you say something like "As we all know", you generally follow that opening with something that most people know to be untrue... your consistency is commendable.

I also use the term "Projection" because it is appropriate for the issue. You make the mistake of using "Laughter by Intimidation" (A debate fallacy) to pretend you stand upon a font of all-knowledge and everyone agrees with you, and everyone else is to be ridiculed. I use the term "As we all know" to point out the fact that your Leftists opinions are not believed even by the people you pretend believe them so fervently. They know the opposite of what they decry, don't they? No one thinks George Floyd or racial justice iis the reason for the protests. The Democrats were honing their swords on the sidelines waiting for something they could jump on to use as a weapon against Trump. Trump - not the police. When Floyd resisted arrest and threw himself on the ground, a small, timid, and untrained police officer kneeled on his neck and killed him. That was the catalyst they needed. The Soros-sponsored activists appeared and overran the drummed-up protests, and the Democrats had their issue. No one on your side believe what you are preaching. The protests are counter-productive and have set back decades of civil Rights improvements by the Justice system. If left to your party, we would still be back in Jim Crow times.

The link I gave you shows how BLM falls under the Soros umbrella. There is no refutation of that on your part, nor any consideration. other than knee-jerk insult and intimidation. But that is your role, isn't it? I wonder how many here are posting under false pretenses and sticking together even when they know they are on the wrong side. You can't all be so blind and coherent in your posts without having the intelligence to know better. The religious fervor of your beliefs are to be admired - but you should be smart enough to question them.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on July 28, 2020, 01:16:37 PM
Remember, taking responsibility for the actions of the police is what these protests are all about.

sorry, but the Portland protests, especially the ones that continue past about 10:00PM, are not about BLM or taking responsibility.

They're about psychological warfare and provoking police response to their criminal behavior in the hopes that they'll get the occasion to catch an officer responding in an inappropriate manner so they can then use that footage generate propaganda to perpetuate their cause and potentially gain more converts to their cause. (respond properly 99 times out of 100, they won't remember the 99, everybody will fixate on the 1; and that 1 event is all the agitators need)

Now it currently is "mutually beneficial" to the two extremes, but the protesters are gambling the sympathetic and complicit media will spin things in their favor. But sadly for them, the Media's habit of distortion and lies where it concerns a sitting president who has his own distortion and lies problem is highly unlikely to result in their desired outcome.

People need to stop providing aid and cover for these operatives, otherwise we will be seeing some flavor of civil war sooner rather than later.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDrake on July 28, 2020, 01:32:19 PM
wmLambert, you become a bigger caricature of yourself with every new post. From the preposterous statement that no one thinks protests are about racial justice, to the fact that in addition to your wild charac terization of the Floyd incident itself, to the concept that segregation would return with Democrats in power.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: wmLambert on July 28, 2020, 01:36:02 PM
The main problem, wm, is that the most obvious anti-American activities going on right now are from Trump, sending in unidentified para-military troops to beat and arrest people in unmarked vans, in spite of the pointed objections of the local mayors and governors--actions that seem far more natural in a dictatorship than in a democracy.

And while conspiracy theories about BLM and the Trump Virus seem natural, the dead bodies from both are proof that they aren't some manufactured crises.  They are very few people that will give their lives to make Trump look bad.  (He does that so well himself. :) )

Total nonsense. No obvious anti-American actions from Trump at all. The objections from Mayors and Councils who allow the unrest are just CYA. Trump's record on Coronavirus is great. Why does the Left condemn his laudatory record? Oh wait - could it be to destroy the economy and affect the election? Of course it is.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on July 28, 2020, 02:04:59 PM
sorry, but the Portland protests, especially the ones that continue past about 10:00PM, are not about BLM or taking responsibility.

They're about psychological warfare and provoking police response to their criminal behavior in the hopes that they'll get the occasion to catch an officer responding in an inappropriate manner so they can then use that footage generate propaganda to perpetuate their cause and potentially gain more converts to their cause. (respond properly 99 times out of 100, they won't remember the 99, everybody will fixate on the 1; and that 1 event is all the agitators need)
Yes, they are 🙂. However, the media you trust only present those bits that reinforce your predispositions.

There is no question whatsoever that some protesters are there only to provoke, some even violently, and many others are there in response to the stormtroopers that have been deployed (and some of the anti-stormtrooper protesters are also acting provocatively.)

But the vast majority of protesters are non-violent, even after 10:00pm, and yes, some non-violent protesters are also hoping for and even expecting overreactions and violence by the stormtroopers
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: yossarian22c on July 28, 2020, 02:07:41 PM
Trump's record on Coronavirus is great. Why does the Left condemn his laudatory record?

1) 4.3 Million confirmed infections.
2) 148,000 confirmed dead.
3) Increasing rate of infection in over 1/2 of the country.
4) Trump downplayed the pandemic early on.
5) Trump touted hydroxicloroquin.
6) Trump discouraged mask usage (which is being shown to be the most effective while being the least disruptive control measure).

I could go on but all of the reasons would wash over you or somehow be spun into how great Trump actually is.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on July 28, 2020, 02:12:04 PM
When Floyd resisted arrest and threw himself on the ground, a small, timid, and untrained police officer kneeled on his neck and killed him.
It's things like this that make people wonder whether you are actually a parody of a right-wing true believer.  I admit, the rest of that post is almost as questionable, but this is probably the most over-the-top bit.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: wmLambert on July 28, 2020, 02:13:02 PM
wmLambert, you become a bigger caricature of yourself with every new post. From the preposterous statement that no one thinks protests are about racial justice, to the fact that in addition to your wild charac terization of the Floyd incident itself, to the concept that segregation would return with Democrats in power.

Still using "Laughter by Intimidation"? You are wrong and know it, but can't admit it. The AntiFa rioters are not there to honor George Floyd. They are only there to attack Trump. They are the same as the KKK who were the military arm of the Democrat Party. Same MO - same masters.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on July 28, 2020, 02:43:17 PM
Unless Trump is a fascist, the anti-fascists aren't there to attack him even metaphorically.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDrake on July 28, 2020, 02:52:32 PM
wmLambert, you become a bigger caricature of yourself with every new post. From the preposterous statement that no one thinks protests are about racial justice, to the fact that in addition to your wild charac terization of the Floyd incident itself, to the concept that segregation would return with Democrats in power.

Still using "Laughter by Intimidation"? You are wrong and know it, but can't admit it. The AntiFa rioters are not there to honor George Floyd. They are only there to attack Trump. They are the same as the KKK who were the military arm of the Democrat Party. Same MO - same masters.

And they are all antifa rioters, right? "No one" in the crowd is after racial justice, they're just out to get Trump and using this as an excuse.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on July 28, 2020, 02:55:37 PM
Still using "Laughter by Intimidation"? You are wrong and know it, but can't admit it. The AntiFa rioters are not there to honor George Floyd. They are only there to attack Trump. They are the same as the KKK who were the military arm of the Democrat Party. Same MO - same masters.

Pretty safe bet the clowns that come out after 10PM are AntiFa, although proving it is another matter. It isn't like they carry membership cards around.

And if you've bothered to pay attention to the History of AntiFa, they were anti-Fascist and anti-Liberal. AntiFa was a communist group in 1932/33, and the reconstituted AntiFa in europe from the 1950's on has continued to remain a communist front group. There is no reason to believe that AntiFa's "core" in the United States is anything but Communist in its nature and backers.

The Democrats are backing them as they share overlapping goals and assume "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" with these guys, but plenty of the protesters on the streets of Portland have made it clear the Democrats are next on their list, you poke into the right corners of the web with regards to AntiFa and they're not shy about the sentiment there either. They've even already reportedly started going after the homes of (nominally Democratic) city council members in Seattle. The intimidation and enforced compliance with AntiFa is coming for those who live in the areas where they have significant presence.

In that respect, AntiFa has a lot in common with the early incarnations of the KKK. AntiFa is going to run anybody they consider a threat out of the areas they think they control, killing people is probably on the table, but getting them to run away is preferable. Law enforcement, especially federal is at the top of that list of things they want gone, followed by local law enforcement, and then the heads of local government, who won't be able to get any effective(or sympathetic) police protection if they've de-fanged their local police already.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on July 28, 2020, 02:56:52 PM
And they are all antifa rioters, right? "No one" in the crowd is after racial justice, they're just out to get Trump and using this as an excuse.

Anyone who is protesting after 10PM in Portland that thinks they're protesting for BLM while doing nothing to stop the thugs next to them is being "a useful idiot." End of story.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: rightleft22 on July 28, 2020, 03:26:39 PM
And they are all antifa rioters, right? "No one" in the crowd is after racial justice, they're just out to get Trump and using this as an excuse.

Anyone who is protesting after 10PM in Portland that thinks they're protesting for BLM while doing nothing to stop the thugs next to them is being "a useful idiot." End of story.

Sadly that's true, and unfortunately those who oppose racial change, or change of any sort, only need one bad example to undo the work of the many.
Funny sad that the same people will use the bad apple excuses to also justify the keeping to the status quo and avoid talk of change.

Just as it takes 99 positive 'at a boys' to overcome a single negative 'you suck', change is a object at rest difficult to get moving. Of course that is the fear, once change is placed in motion how do you stop it, best to keep it at rest.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on July 28, 2020, 03:29:45 PM
In that respect, AntiFa has a lot in common with the early incarnations of the KKK.
The Godwin is strong in this thread... aside from the fact that Antifa in North America is a belief system and not an organization, the KKK came from a position of power - government officials, law enforcement officers, and yes, farmers and shopkeepers too - whereas the Antifa bogeyman is made up of non-organized underemployed and dispossessed people primarily.

As for the attempt to tar the Democratic Party with supporting Antifa?  From Pelosi to Bernie Sanders (OK, he may not actually belong to the Democratic Party) they have denounced Antifa violent tactics.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on July 28, 2020, 04:10:35 PM
As for the attempt to tar the Democratic Party with supporting Antifa?  From Pelosi to Bernie Sanders (OK, he may not actually belong to the Democratic Party) they have denounced Antifa violent tactics.

Minnesota AG prior to becoming the AG:

https://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2018/01/04/keith-ellison-antifa/

(Portland Mayor) Wheeler getting BBC attention regarding AntiFa, although he wasn't explicitly supporting them then either:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-48849035

We could also get into the Democrat Governor condemning Trump, not the protesters, or the Oregon (Democrat) AG filing a suit against the Federal Government on behalf of the (AntiFa) protesters which has been dismissed by the judge?
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on July 28, 2020, 04:32:55 PM
Also speaking of that suit that the Oregon AG brought and had dismissed due to lack of standing?

BLM and the "Wall of Moms" among others have decided they do have standing, and are filing their own suit in Federal Court now.

https://thehill.com/regulation/court-battles/509257-wall-of-moms-black-lives-matter-sue-trump-admin-over-portland

So I guess those guys with blow torches, power tools, crow bars, and hammers at those protests aren't AntiFa after all, they're actually Black Lives Matter.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: Wayward Son on July 28, 2020, 04:35:28 PM
Meanwhile, some white supremists (https://www.startribune.com/police-umbrella-man-was-a-white-supremacist-trying-to-incite-george-floyd-rioting/571932272/) apparently have been instigating violence (https://www.wsls.com/news/virginia/2020/07/27/police-richmond-riots-instigated-by-white-supremacists-disguised-as-black-lives-matter/) while pretending to be Antifa, just to make things a little more interesting.  ::)
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on July 28, 2020, 04:55:33 PM
Funny thing is AntiFa and BLM protesters themselves are amazingly racist, even without the more typical white supremacist groups running around.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on July 28, 2020, 05:10:09 PM
As for the attempt to tar the Democratic Party with supporting Antifa?  From Pelosi to Bernie Sanders (OK, he may not actually belong to the Democratic Party) they have denounced Antifa violent tactics.

Minnesota AG prior to becoming the AG:

https://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2018/01/04/keith-ellison-antifa/

(Portland Mayor) Wheeler getting BBC attention regarding AntiFa, although he wasn't explicitly supporting them then either:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-48849035

We could also get into the Democrat Governor condemning Trump, not the protesters, or the Oregon (Democrat) AG filing a suit against the Federal Government on behalf of the (AntiFa) protesters which has been dismissed by the judge?
I made a statement that the Democrats have denounced Antifa violent tactics, and you respond with... somebody holding up a book about antifascism, and a link to an article where the mayor is not quoted as supporting Antifa violent tactics, but for not sufficiently supporting the police...

As for your continued conflation of "Antifa" with "all protesters"  - guess what?  At probably every protest for the past 15 years, there have been anarchist or black-block or equivalent agitators.  The vast majority of protesters, however, are not associated with them.  You seem to want to equate all people exercising their first amendment rights to the small number of violent agitators.  Why?
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on July 28, 2020, 05:13:52 PM
Funny thing is AntiFa and BLM protesters themselves are amazingly racist, even without the more typical white supremacist groups running around.
This is a generalization that is impossible to support, especially since you think all of the protesters, in the thousands and sometimes tens of thousands, are all Antifa.  Did you take a survey?  Did that survey show even a significant minority of protesters are racist?

That statement is as mouth breathy as those put forth by left-wing radicals who decry all Republicans as racists.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDrake on July 28, 2020, 05:17:27 PM
Funny thing is AntiFa and BLM protesters themselves are amazingly racist, even without the more typical white supremacist groups running around.

Since AntiFa is overwhelmingly white, and BLM a greater proportion of black people, are they being racist on each other? I don't recall any clashes between AntiFa and BLM.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on July 28, 2020, 05:19:49 PM
Funny thing is AntiFa and BLM protesters themselves are amazingly racist, even without the more typical white supremacist groups running around.
This is a generalization that is impossible to support, especially since you think all of the protesters, in the thousands and sometimes tens of thousands, are all Antifa.  Did you take a survey?  Did that survey show even a significant minority of protesters are racist?

That statement is as mouth breathy as those put forth by left-wing radicals who decry all Republicans as racists.

False equivalence.
Portland is Known to have a large AntiFa presence, as the Proud Boys vs AntiFa fights in recent years demonstrated.

"Large AntiFa presence" does not mean everyone present at a protest in Portland is AntiFa, but it does mean that depending on the issue, AntiFa is going to be present in numbers.

As to the anti-racist protesters being racist? Look at how they frequently treat minorities who disagrees with them. They get called every racially loaded term in the book. That isn't even touching on the black LEOs.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on July 28, 2020, 05:34:47 PM
Funny thing is AntiFa and BLM protesters themselves are amazingly racist, even without the more typical white supremacist groups running around.
This is a generalization that is impossible to support, especially since you think all of the protesters, in the thousands and sometimes tens of thousands, are all Antifa.  Did you take a survey?  Did that survey show even a significant minority of protesters are racist?

That statement is as mouth breathy as those put forth by left-wing radicals who decry all Republicans as racists.

False equivalence.
Portland is Known to have a large AntiFa presence, as the Proud Boys vs AntiFa fights in recent years demonstrated.

"Large AntiFa presence" does not mean everyone present at a protest in Portland is AntiFa, but it does mean that depending on the issue, AntiFa is going to be present in numbers.

As to the anti-racist protesters being racist? Look at how they frequently treat minorities who disagrees with them. They get called every racially loaded term in the book. That isn't even touching on the black LEOs.
Making generalizations about things based on your social media feed and preferred media is an exercise in confirmation bias.  You are so sure that Antifa is in Portland, and before that at every other protest, and in numbers more significant than non-Antifa protesters... and all this certainty based on images that have been curated for you specifically to provoke exactly this reaction.

You cannot believe Antifa is not a huge problem exactly because you believe Antifa is a huge problem.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on July 29, 2020, 01:15:33 AM
Portland is Known to have a large AntiFa presence, as the Proud Boys vs AntiFa fights in recent years demonstrated.

"Large AntiFa presence" does not mean everyone present at a protest in Portland is AntiFa, but it does mean that depending on the issue, AntiFa is going to be present in numbers.

As to the anti-racist protesters being racist? Look at how they frequently treat minorities who disagrees with them. They get called every racially loaded term in the book. That isn't even touching on the black LEOs.
Making generalizations about things based on your social media feed and preferred media is an exercise in confirmation bias.  You are so sure that Antifa is in Portland, and before that at every other protest, and in numbers more significant than non-Antifa protesters... and all this certainty based on images that have been curated for you specifically to provoke exactly this reaction.

You cannot believe Antifa is not a huge problem exactly because you believe Antifa is a huge problem.

Here's your problem with regards to Portland. Only a year ago, AntiFa was literally brawling with the ProudBoys in the streets of Portland, in large numbers no less. AntiFa "won" those fights as well, the Proud Boys packed up and left.

If AntiFa isn't behind what's going on in Portland right now, then where did they go?
You're telling me a group that was vibrant and thriving for several years under the Trump presidency just spontaneously disintegrated in the past year because of what? Covid19?

As AntiFa doesn't seem to be fighting these Portland rioters in the streets this time around, it is logical to conclude the rioters in the streets of Portland are AntiFa.

Or are you claiming that the BBC report I linked to earlier in regards to Mayor Wheeler, which is from 2019, somehow wasn't actually talking about AntiFa being present in Portland?
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: rightleft22 on July 29, 2020, 09:47:12 AM
Quote
As AntiFa doesn't seem to be fighting these Portland rioters in the streets this time around, it is logical to conclude the rioters in the streets of Portland are AntiFa.

Portland Librarians don't seem to be fighting theses Portland rioters, its logical to conclude the rioters in the streets of Portland are Librarians.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on July 29, 2020, 10:53:51 AM
Quote
As AntiFa doesn't seem to be fighting these Portland rioters in the streets this time around, it is logical to conclude the rioters in the streets of Portland are AntiFa.

Portland Librarians don't seem to be fighting theses Portland rioters, its logical to conclude the rioters in the streets of Portland are Librarians.

I was unaware that the Librarian Association of Portland has had a recent history of violent street confrontations with those they oppose. Could you provide some evidence to back up that claim?

I stand by the reasoning that since Portland AntiFa has both the history, and outlook of physical confrontation of those they disagree with. That the only reasonable conclusion can be one of three things is going on at the Federal buildings in Portland where it concerns AntiFa:
1) It is AntiFa attacking the Federal Buildings.
2) AntiFa agrees with attacking with the Federal Buildings. (In which case, see #1)
3) AntiFa no longer exists in Portland. (I don't believe that)
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDrake on July 29, 2020, 11:14:40 AM
Of course people who identify as Antifa (or more accurately black bloc) are involved and all for it. It is highly unclear if all or most of people attacking federal buildings identify as such, and also highly unclear if all or most of the people merely in the vicinity identify as such. Or that Antifa is in any way organizing and leading any protests or other actions. Anarchists aren't really very big on organizing and leadership.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: rightleft22 on July 29, 2020, 12:18:22 PM
Quote
As AntiFa doesn't seem to be fighting these Portland rioters in the streets this time around, it is logical to conclude the rioters in the streets of Portland are AntiFa.

Portland Librarians don't seem to be fighting theses Portland rioters, its logical to conclude the rioters in the streets of Portland are Librarians.

I was unaware that the Librarian Association of Portland has had a recent history of violent street confrontations with those they oppose. Could you provide some evidence to back up that claim?

I stand by the reasoning that since Portland AntiFa has both the history, and outlook of physical confrontation of those they disagree with. That the only reasonable conclusion can be one of three things is going on at the Federal buildings in Portland where it concerns AntiFa:
1) It is AntiFa attacking the Federal Buildings.
2) AntiFa agrees with attacking with the Federal Buildings. (In which case, see #1)
3) AntiFa no longer exists in Portland. (I don't believe that)

I find the reasoning weak. 
I guess its possible but it seems to me that the AntiFa label is being used as a bogyman distraction so unless you have clear facts on AntiFa membership and actions I'm not convinced by your reasoning.  I admit I know nothing about Antifa

I also don't think we should be using the label to distract from the very real issues and concerns behind the protest. Of course such distractions have work quite well in the past and I suspect they will work now in order to keep the status quo.

Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on July 29, 2020, 04:24:09 PM
I guess its possible but it seems to me that the AntiFa label is being used as a bogyman distraction so unless you have clear facts on AntiFa membership and actions I'm not convinced by your reasoning.  I admit I know nothing about Antifa

That it's been getting attention in here since 2016, that's not fully our fault. Coverage of AntiFa activities in Portland was largely constrained to either local press or right-wing media, with it sometimes getting national/international attention as seen with the BBC report in 2019. At this point, if you're oblivious about AntiFa it's because you prefer to be, and no amount of evidence any of us present you is likely to be worth the effort. So you're on your own.

Quote
I also don't think we should be using the label to distract from the very real issues and concerns behind the protest. Of course such distractions have work quite well in the past and I suspect they will work now in order to keep the status quo.

The presumes a false choice dichotomy. It's almost as if you believe Criminal Justice and Law Enforcement Reform is incapable of running on a different track than condemning the rioters in Portland and elsewhere. I reject that premise completely.

I can condemn the people trying to destroy/damage the Federal Building in Portland while working towards police reforms. Although it's pointless during an election year on the Federal Level as while the Republicans would love to make reforms happen, the Dems won't meet them halfway as they don't want to "give Trump that victory" so the only "compromise" they'll accept are poison pill offerings to the Republicans.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: Wayward Son on July 29, 2020, 05:18:58 PM
It's not so much we are ignoring AntiFa, but rather don't look at it the way you do.

AntiFa is a loosely knit "organization" (if you can even call it that) of people who decide to man the frontline against Fascists.  There is no membership, no leadership (AFAIK), nothing beyond people who call each other up and decide to dress in black.  Their only distinguishing factors are their dress (which isn't that distinct) and their pledge to fight fascists.

Compare this to simple rioters, looters and guys who just like to burn things. :)

When the right-wing media says that AntiFa is causing the trouble, how do you know it is AntiFa, rather than some random troublemakers?  In fact, from what I understand of them, unless they determined that Federal buildings are Fascist, they would not target them at all.  It seems to be that right-wing media is using them as a boogey-man to get people scared that there is some grand conspiracy to overthrow the U.S. government with these kids, doubtlessly with the boogey-man George Soros behind it all!

The only reason AntiFa has come to our attention is because they are the only ones who will meet the violence from the Right head-on.  Which scares the Right.

So unless your evidence shows a grand structure to this "organization," follows the money (assuming there is any), and provides the documents that are sent to the shock-troops, you're right, no amount of evidence will convince us.  Because it isn't really evidence. :)
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: rightleft22 on July 29, 2020, 05:21:06 PM
I guess its possible but it seems to me that the AntiFa label is being used as a bogyman distraction so unless you have clear facts on AntiFa membership and actions I'm not convinced by your reasoning.  I admit I know nothing about Antifa

That it's been getting attention in here since 2016, that's not fully our fault. Coverage of AntiFa activities in Portland was largely constrained to either local press or right-wing media, with it sometimes getting national/international attention as seen with the BBC report in 2019. At this point, if you're oblivious about AntiFa it's because you prefer to be, and no amount of evidence any of us present you is likely to be worth the effort. So you're on your own.

Quote
I also don't think we should be using the label to distract from the very real issues and concerns behind the protest. Of course such distractions have work quite well in the past and I suspect they will work now in order to keep the status quo.

The presumes a false choice dichotomy. It's almost as if you believe Criminal Justice and Law Enforcement Reform is incapable of running on a different track than condemning the rioters in Portland and elsewhere. I reject that premise completely.

I can condemn the people trying to destroy/damage the Federal Building in Portland while working towards police reforms. Although it's pointless during an election year on the Federal Level as while the Republicans would love to make reforms happen, the Dems won't meet them halfway as they don't want to "give Trump that victory" so the only "compromise" they'll accept are poison pill offerings to the Republicans.

I agree its a false choice dichotomy yet history has shown that when it comes to such protests the tactic of distracting by focus on the 'law breakers' works to maintaining the status quo.

As for "the Republicans would love to make reforms happen" I see no evidence of that.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on July 29, 2020, 05:26:11 PM
As for "the Republicans would love to make reforms happen" I see no evidence of that.

The Senate passed a bill, the House rejected it as it didn't have their poison pills and of course because "it didn't go far enough" so I guess the perfect is the enemy of the good?
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: Wayward Son on July 29, 2020, 06:00:09 PM
The perfect is the enemy of the good.  So is the inadequate, the band-aid and the token. :)
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on July 30, 2020, 12:14:07 PM
https://www.oregonlive.com/news/2020/07/portlands-wall-of-moms-crumbles-amid-online-allegations-by-former-partner-dont-shoot-pdx.html

Quote
Portland Wall of Moms, a group formed in recent weeks and quickly recognized as a staple of nightly downtown protests, was accused publicly Wednesday of “anti-Blackness” by leaders of an existing, Black-led community group.

Wall of Moms, whose members said they aimed to support and protect other Black Lives Matter protesters near the fence in front of the federal courthouse, announced Friday that its white leadership had rescinded their positions to allow women of color to be in charge. New leaders announced Friday include Teressa Raiford, executive director of Don’t Shoot Portland, Demetria Hester and Danialle James.

But less than a week later, Don’t Shoot Portland took to Instagram to urge people against supporting the Wall of Moms, saying that it was no longer working with the moms group.

“The lies are finally clear and we are sad but ultimately not surprised that anti-Blackness showed its ugly head,” read the post published on Wednesday by Don’t Shoot Portland, a local Black Lives Matter and mutual aid group founded in 2014.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on August 01, 2020, 02:23:14 PM
US Attorney's office in Portland just filed charges against a anti-fa"white supremacist" protester for throwing an explosive incendiary device at the Federal Building on the 28th of July.

https://thepostmillennial.com/antifa-militant-whose-grandma-bought-him-riot-vest-has-been-charged-with-arson

Although the actual press release is amusing enough:
https://www.justice.gov/usao-or/pr/portland-man-charged-july-28-2020-arson-mark-o-hatfield-us-courthouse
Quote
ATF investigators reviewed social media posts from the night of the explosion and located videos of the incendiary object being thrown. The individual depicted throwing the object, later identified to be Agard-Berryhill, was a young, Caucasian male wearing a green colored vest, camouflage pants, and a mask. Investigators observed the person in other protest-related videos posted online wearing the same vest and attempting to hold a shield in front of a naked woman.

Investigators also found a post on Twitter depicting a product review for the vest. The review included a photo of a person wearing the vest who matched the description of the person seen throwing the explosive device. The review states “I got this [vest] for my grandson who’s a protestor [sic] downtown, he uses it every night and says its [sic] does the job.” Investigators later found the same photo on a Facebook page and, using law enforcement databases, were able to positively identify Agard-Berryhill.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on August 02, 2020, 11:05:30 AM
So on Thursday night the Oregon State Police were announced as taking over (public facing) security of the Federal Buildings, and people were told the Feds were leaving(not quite correct, but close enough).

This resulted in many of the people who were turning out to protest "Trump's police" didn't turn up Thursday night. The greatly reduced crowd turnout resulted in lack of sufficient cover for the agitators to do much, it was further mitigate by several of the protesters who did turn up on Thursday and Friday nights also helped "police their own" which was much easier without the huge crowds present.

But that wasn't the end of it.

The agitators simply changed venues.

https://www.portlandoregon.gov/police/news/read.cfm?id=251060
Quote
Meanwhile, a group of about two hundred marched from Laurelhurst Park, blocking traffic lanes, to the Penumbra Kelly Building, 4735 East Burnside Street. The group stood blocking East Burnside Street, shined bright lights at Portland Police officers standing outside the building, directed lasers at the officers and eventually began throwing glass bottles at them. Vehicles blocked East Burnside Street from Northeast 47th Avenue to Northeast 50th Avenue.

A person in the crowd threw a glass jar or bottle filled with paint, which struck a Portland Police officer in the head. The officer was not injured.

Portland Police provided public address announcements directing people to remain off of the property of the Penumbra Kelly Building and to move away to the west. As people continued to throw glass bottles and other objects Portland Police declared that the assembly blocking East Burnside was unlawful and directed people to disperse.

Portland Police dispersed the crowd, directing it west. People continued to throw glass and plastic bottles at police. People with "press" written on their outer garments repeatedly threw objects at officers. Portland Police continued moving the crowd to the west and south.
Near East Burnside and Southeast 44th Avenue a person moved a car slowly in front of police, interfering with their attempts to safely move people out of the road. To remove the hazard the car presented, Portland Police deflated its tires and passed it by. Upon reaching Southeast 41st Avenue and Southeast Pine Street, Portland Police disengaged and returned to the Penumbra Kelly Building. Portland Police took people into custody during this dispersal. Max Van Briesen, 31, of Portland, was booked into the Multnomah County Detention Center on charges of Assaulting a Public Safety Officer, Interfering with a Police Officer, and Disorderly Conduct in the Second Degree. Freedom Moreno, 34, of Portland, was charged with Interfering with a Police Officer, Disorderly Conduct in the Second Degree, Resist Arrest, and Harassment.

A large portion of the crowd marched blocking city streets and circled back toward the Penumbra Kelly Building. Portland Police met the crowd near Southeast 50th near East Burnside and directed it south all the way to Southeast Belmont Street. Again people with "press" written on their outer garments were among those throwing objects at police. Portland Police disengaged from the crowd near Southeast Belmont Street and Southeast 48th Avenue. The crowd did not return to the Penumbra Kelly Building. There was no use of CS gas.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDrake on August 02, 2020, 12:55:56 PM
You seem to be using this article to demonstrate the violent nature of protests, while ignoring the second part of the article, which in the headline is "But Second March Peaceful".
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on August 02, 2020, 01:36:48 PM
You seem to be using this article to demonstrate the violent nature of protests, while ignoring the second part of the article, which in the headline is "But Second March Peaceful".

Second march was at the Federal Building which (presumably) had enough law enforcement presence to present a "hard target" so the agitators moved on to "soft targets" instead. The hard target remained peaceful because the agitators shifted to the soft one, as they otherwise lacked the numbers to be able to "blend in" with the otherwise "peaceful protesters" at the Federal Building.

I'm pretty sure I explicitly said in an earlier post that if the peaceful protesters disassociated with the agitators, the Federal Building attacks would stop.
Exactly that has happened.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDrake on August 02, 2020, 10:29:54 PM
You seem to be using this article to demonstrate the violent nature of protests, while ignoring the second part of the article, which in the headline is "But Second March Peaceful".

Second march was at the Federal Building which (presumably) had enough law enforcement presence to present a "hard target" so the agitators moved on to "soft targets" instead. The hard target remained peaceful because the agitators shifted to the soft one, as they otherwise lacked the numbers to be able to "blend in" with the otherwise "peaceful protesters" at the Federal Building.

I'm pretty sure I explicitly said in an earlier post that if the peaceful protesters disassociated with the agitators, the Federal Building attacks would stop.
Exactly that has happened.

Attribute it to whatever you want, the point is that you quoted all of the article except for this.

Quote
Back downtown, just after midnight, the majority of the crowd that had gathered outside the federal courthouse embarked on a march through Downtown and the Pearl District. The large group shrunk during the nearly two hour walk. When it returned to Southwest 3rd Avenue, the crowd consisted of about 100 people who slowly drifted off into the city over the next hour.
The march was peaceful and Portland Police did not interact with the crowd of people downtown.

To me that seems at least a little misleading as you assemble your narrative. Nothing in here supports your theory that they just went in search of a soft target. There was no alternate target to assault.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on August 02, 2020, 10:38:21 PM
The majority of the demonstrators cannot be peaceful.  If they seem to be, they are only "peaceful protesters".
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: yossarian22c on August 03, 2020, 10:54:37 AM
You seem to be using this article to demonstrate the violent nature of protests, while ignoring the second part of the article, which in the headline is "But Second March Peaceful".

Second march was at the Federal Building which (presumably) had enough law enforcement presence to present a "hard target" so the agitators moved on to "soft targets" instead. The hard target remained peaceful because the agitators shifted to the soft one, as they otherwise lacked the numbers to be able to "blend in" with the otherwise "peaceful protesters" at the Federal Building.

I'm pretty sure I explicitly said in an earlier post that if the peaceful protesters disassociated with the agitators, the Federal Building attacks would stop.
Exactly that has happened.

Except this whole time you've been saying if the Feds left the building and parts of the city would burn and turn into a mad max hellscape. Okay, I made up the last parts but you clearly said this only ended with either the protesters being crushed or the federal building burning. But the federal police force left and nothing happened. The protesters stayed peaceful, I guess you are crediting the local police for stepping up?

It seems more likely that we see now what the federal police were there for, to inflame tensions so Trump could point to liberal Portland and try to scare the crap out of people about how horrible it would be. Instead when his boys packed up and went home things calmed back down to the level before they arrived.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on August 03, 2020, 11:53:58 AM
Except this whole time you've been saying if the Feds left the building and parts of the city would burn and turn into a mad max hellscape. Okay, I made up the last parts but you clearly said this only ended with either the protesters being crushed or the federal building burning. But the federal police force left and nothing happened. The protesters stayed peaceful, I guess you are crediting the local police for stepping up?

I guess I'm going to have to go dig through the back posts. But first it should be pointed out that even in the reports about the agreement for the withdrawal of federal agents said they were NOT leaving immediately, as their departure was contingent on "the security of the Federal Building being demonstrated" (absent their needing to become involved.)

But as to "being crushed of the federal building burning." I'm pretty sure my statement was a bit more nuanced than that, although I could see how certain people might have favored that option. One of the points I also frequently made in all of this was the "peaceful protesters" turning up in very large numbers was providing aid and support for the more violent ones by virtue of simply being there. "Crushing the (violent) protesters" always had two options that I'm pretty sure I covered and you're conveniently ignoring.
1) The truly peaceful protesters stop showing up in large numbers. (The violent protesters lose the very large crowd to hide in--that happened on Thursday and Friday night, after the "withdrawal" was announced)
2) The peaceful protesters police their own ranks and stop the more violent protesters from doing anything to provoke a police response against the crowd. (This also happened on Thursday and Friday night in Portland)

Quote
It seems more likely that we see now what the federal police were there for, to inflame tensions so Trump could point to liberal Portland and try to scare the crap out of people about how horrible it would be. Instead when his boys packed up and went home things calmed back down to the level before they arrived.

The changing of the (public) guard for the Federal Buildings was only a symbolic contributor to the rapid deescalation in Portland. For the vast majority of Joe Public protester, the announcement that the Feds were leaving was mission accomplished, and allowed for Item #1 to take place, which in turn allowed those that remained to accomplish item #2.

It wasn't the Federal Agents causing the situation in the way you're wanting to cast it. The agents were doing nothing to directly incite the responses that were being seen. The best case you can make is that their presence was inciting violence. And if anyone has a problem with a LEO simply being present in a public space, especially one they're charged with protecting, there are larger problems that need addressed, and it isn't the LEO.

I will agree there were major optics problems that the Feds were contending with, especially after the middle of the month. Which helped to considerably swell the size of the crowds, but again, they weren't instigating what was going on, but responding the reality of the situation they were in. The escalations which happened were entirely on the people mixed within the ranks of the protesters.

And I'm not entirely convinced the Federal Building in Portland is out of danger just yet. We'll see in another month.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on August 03, 2020, 12:28:54 PM
The best case you can make is that their presence was inciting violence. And if anyone has a problem with a LEO simply being present in a public space, especially one they're charged with protecting, there are larger problems that need addressed, and it isn't the LEO.
Yes, this is exactly what people have pointed out - the introduction of the stormtroopers predictably escalated tensions, and the completely predictable actions/reactions on both sides fed into each other.

Knowing that introducing the stormtroopers would escalate tensions and the resulting conflicts is on the administration.  Responsibility for any particular instances of violence in on each protester or stormtrooper. Whether human nature is such that people should automatically respect police authority, and that any resulting lack of respect is something that can be "addressed" is an interesting question, but quite separate from the actions of the administration leading to escalating violence.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: Fenring on August 03, 2020, 12:41:38 PM
Whether human nature is such that people should automatically respect police authority, and that any resulting lack of respect is something that can be "addressed" is an interesting question, but quite separate from the actions of the administration leading to escalating violence.

This is a peculiar point. While I can see the logic of your side of it - that avoiding provocative actions is a good thing - it's very hard to get away from the fact that it being provocative is a problem. It may be Trump's fault that he sent federal officers, but it's not his fault that the presence of federal officers would cause violence. That shouldn't really be true, should it? Especially since this was originally supposedly about corruption and racism in local PD. If I'm having a temper tantrum in public and an officer tries to get me to calm down and clear the street, sure, that may escalate my tantrum if I don't want to be interfered with, and sure, he could just leave me alone. But then again, I'm the one having the tantrum and in the position of being so easily riled up, and I'm doing so in public and disturbing others. Maybe I'm even having a tantrum for a very good reason, but that doesn't somehow excuse if I mouth off at a police officer or throw stuff at him. None of my personal BS - however justified or right - gives me carte blanche to attack an officer, nor does it somehow make it his fault if he takes steps to get me to settle down.

I find the logic bizarre that Trump could be said to be inciting violence by sending in officers to defend against mob actions. Maybe the mob is totally right, but that has nothing to do with the fact that he's not the one who made them a mob in the first place. Their propensity to escalate just because someone they don't like is in the area is their own issue, not that of the rest of society.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: wmLambert on August 03, 2020, 12:57:29 PM
...1) The truly peaceful protesters stop showing up in large numbers. (The violent protesters lose the very large crowd to hide in--that happened on Thursday and Friday night, after the "withdrawal" was announced)
2) The peaceful protesters police their own ranks and stop the more violent protesters from doing anything to provoke a police response against the crowd. (This also happened on Thursday and Friday night in Portland)

One of the reason education has failed us is in teaching both history and logic. During the Vietnam era, when Cronkite lied about our embassies being overrun in the Tet Offensive, it alerted General Giap to the idea that he didn't need to fight soldiers - all he needed to do was use the US Media to carry water. That brought about the codification of guerillas only in front of the camera. As soon as the Klieg lights go off, the agitators go and hide behind their mothers' aprons. AntiFa is not just a loosely amalgamated group, they are the recipients of this new paradigm. Anyone can create a flash mob via internet and a simple request for idiot morons to gather. These people can be lured to a place for one purpose but be used for another. They seem too stupid to realize they are being used.

I, and others, focus on those few agitators who start the problems, but many here in this forum seem to focus on the idiot morons giving cover to the activists. The activists are probably loosely affiliated and often paid for their efforts. the larger percentage who give them cover are largely irrelevant. We know Soros has bragged about supporting the activists to the tune of several billion dollars, and the AntiFa "protestors" have also bragged about getting tattoos with their "Soros money." The same protestors have shown up at any demonstration anywhere in the country. The guy dressed in AntiFa black today in Washington, was also in Central Park as an Occupy Wall Street leader. We saw this happening way back during the 70's with Hubert Humphrey. Same people doing their worst.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on August 03, 2020, 02:20:18 PM
It may be Trump's fault that he sent federal officers, but it's not his fault that the presence of federal officers would cause violence.
If I knew that my otherwise completely innocent action would likely lead to violence, then of course I would be at least partly responsible for the resulting violence. This isn't really up for debate, is it?  And if I planned on benefitting from the triggering of the violence that I knew would likely be the result, that makes it worse, although is itself a separate issue.

That doesn't mean the perpetrators of the violence are not themselves responsible for their own acts; of course they are.  But that doesn't magically absolve the president of his own bad actions.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: Fenring on August 03, 2020, 02:29:29 PM
That doesn't mean the perpetrators of the violence are not themselves responsible for their own acts; of course they are.  But that doesn't magically absolve the president of his own bad actions.

That really depends on your confidence in that fact that Trump sent them knowing it would cause problems, and even because it would cause problems. That's a lot of bad faith, which may or may not be warranted (I find it difficult to make any determination about that).

But going back to a previous point:

Quote
If I knew that my otherwise completely innocent action would likely lead to violence, then of course I would be at least partly responsible for the resulting violence.

I think this is a bad universal rule of thumb. If, for instance, I want to walk down the street to the post office to mail a letter, and there's a mob of people who hate the mail system, and you tell me that if I walk to the post office it will rile them up, I do not think there is any world in which I am *responsible* in any way for them throwing bottles if I decide to go anyhow. If I get hurt you might say "I told you so", and if I complain you might say "you were warned", but you can't say "you have to take responsibility for them getting violent". In that context, I do not. Even if I'm stirring the pot and I go to the post office just to test them they have complete responsibility for being in that state of mind and being willing to throw bottles at the post office.

It reminds me of the Ali G and Borat skits, where during the course of an 'interview' someone who say or do something bad. Some might argue that Baron Cohen was inciting these acts and statements, but I would argue that all he did was give them rope to hang themselves; their antics betrayed their own issues and he was just a catalyst to expose it. He was no more responsible than I was for watching the show. That they would say these things at all was 100% on them, and I have a difficult time seeing it differently for violent protesters. You can argue that any number of actions would 'set them off' and I'm sorry, but whatever sets them off is really their hang-up. Even if Trump is an idiot for sending the officers that really is a different matter from the fact that the mere presence of certain humans would make these protesters violent. That should not be a thing.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: Wayward Son on August 03, 2020, 02:44:37 PM

That really depends on your confidence in that fact that Trump sent them knowing it would cause problems, and even because it would cause problems. That's a lot of bad faith, which may or may not be warranted (I find it difficult to make any determination about that).


The thing is, Fenring, if Trump didn't expect the Federal officers riling things up, then what was the purpose of sending them when he did?

From all reports that I had heard, the protests and crimes were deescalating before the Federal officers showed up.  Sure, there was graffiti and broken windows, but it costs a lot less to fix those than pay for all those officers. :)  If there was little violence to quell, what do you think Trump expected to see when he sent in the troops?  A faster de-escalation?  :)

No, the only reasonable expectation was a re-escalation of the protests, maybe helped by a few questionable arrests of people off the street.  That's the kind of flashy result that Trump likes.  He isn't the kind of President that does things quietly, in the background, with the full consensus of local mayors and governors.  He is the Reality Show President. ;)

In this instance, he knew what he was doing and what he expected to happen.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: Fenring on August 03, 2020, 02:54:17 PM
Quote
No, the only reasonable expectation was a re-escalation of the protests, maybe helped by a few questionable arrests of people off the street.

WS, that is not only not the only reasonable explanation, but it's not consistent with Trump's playbook. Other explanations could be (a) executive overreaction, (b) error about how to resolve the issue, (c) trying to look tough, (d) making a statement to R voters that order will be maintained. These are all more plausible and probable than your explanation, which while still possible is sort of up there with Obama faking his birth certificate. Sure, it's possible, even something someone might do, but is defaulting to a worst case scenario interpretation seemingly arbitrarily. The options I just offered are pretty typical sorts of political reasons, and all would account for it, and none require the motive of deliberately agitating protesters. You may be right, but I think it's very unlikely. Only if you think of Trump as Cobra Commander or something would you expect that any action he takes can surely be chalked up as some kind of criminal scheme.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on August 03, 2020, 03:19:15 PM
If, for instance, I want to walk down the street to the post office to mail a letter, and there's a mob of people who hate the mail system, and you tell me that if I walk to the post office it will rile them up, I do not think there is any world in which I am *responsible* in any way for them throwing bottles if I decide to go anyhow.
If you see the angry mod, and think that by walking to the post office at that time there is a significantly increased chance of triggering an escalation that might lead to people getting hurt, or a building getting torched, then yes, you would be absolutely responsible for the resulting violence if it were to escalate.  Those are foreseeable results of actions you chose to take.

Does that mean the anti-post-office protester who proceeds to go postal is not themselves responsible for their own actions?  Of course not.

Would you be held legally responsible?  Possibly, but not necessarily.  Clearly, the president sending shock troops into an area ostensibly to safeguard some buildings provides him with legal coverage; but that is not the same as the moral responsibility he bears for stirring the pot and the predictable escalations.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: Fenring on August 03, 2020, 03:28:16 PM
If you see the angry mod, and think that by walking to the post office at that time there is a significantly increased chance of triggering an escalation that might lead to people getting hurt, or a building getting torched, then yes, you would be absolutely responsible for the resulting violence if it were to escalate.

I believe your position hinges on this point, ok. I'd like to know if you'd make precisely the same argument for a woman walking past an angry protest at an abortion clinic. If she walks past the protest and they start being violent, she is absolutely responsible for the resulting violence, right?
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on August 03, 2020, 03:30:14 PM
The best case you can make is that their presence was inciting violence. And if anyone has a problem with a LEO simply being present in a public space, especially one they're charged with protecting, there are larger problems that need addressed, and it isn't the LEO.
Yes, this is exactly what people have pointed out - the introduction of the stormtroopers predictably escalated tensions, and the completely predictable actions/reactions on both sides fed into each other.

Knowing that introducing the stormtroopers would escalate tensions and the resulting conflicts is on the administration.  Responsibility for any particular instances of violence in on each protester or stormtrooper. Whether human nature is such that people should automatically respect police authority, and that any resulting lack of respect is something that can be "addressed" is an interesting question, but quite separate from the actions of the administration leading to escalating violence.

The "Federal Stormtroopers" didn't turn up until those "peaceful protesters" had broken into the federal building, after several nights of attempts being foiled by the Portland Police, and started causing property damage inside the building.

So you're saying Federal agents turning up to protect Federal Buildings from being set on fire, something which had already happened, would cause things to escalate to people trying to burn down the Federal Building... Something they were already doing?
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on August 03, 2020, 03:37:17 PM
From all reports that I had heard, the protests and crimes were deescalating before the Federal officers showed up.  Sure, there was graffiti and broken windows, but it costs a lot less to fix those than pay for all those officers. :)  If there was little violence to quell, what do you think Trump expected to see when he sent in the troops?  A faster de-escalation?  :)

No, the only reasonable expectation was a re-escalation of the protests, maybe helped by a few questionable arrests of people off the street.  That's the kind of flashy result that Trump likes.  He isn't the kind of President that does things quietly, in the background, with the full consensus of local mayors and governors.  He is the Reality Show President. ;)

Things were not de-escalating. The Federal building had been broken into and had fires set in it the night before the Feds turned up.

That isn't a de-escalation, and further,it demonstrated the Portland Police appeared to be unable to defend the location on their own, so Federal Officers were sent to better protect the building.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on August 03, 2020, 03:48:17 PM
Quote
No, the only reasonable expectation was a re-escalation of the protests, maybe helped by a few questionable arrests of people off the street.

WS, that is not only not the only reasonable explanation, but it's not consistent with Trump's playbook. Other explanations could be (a) executive overreaction, (b) error about how to resolve the issue, (c) trying to look tough, (d) making a statement to R voters that order will be maintained. These are all more plausible and probable than your explanation, which while still possible is sort of up there with Obama faking his birth certificate. Sure, it's possible, even something someone might do, but is defaulting to a worst case scenario interpretation seemingly arbitrarily. The options I just offered are pretty typical sorts of political reasons, and all would account for it, and none require the motive of deliberately agitating protesters. You may be right, but I think it's very unlikely. Only if you think of Trump as Cobra Commander or something would you expect that any action he takes can surely be chalked up as some kind of criminal scheme.

Which isn't to mention the absolute furor that would have erupted among Republicans if Trump "stood aside and did nothing" after the Federal Building had already been breached previously and the protesters managed to drive off the PPB while causing far more significant damage to the Federal Building as a consequence.

Anyone who thinks "The Federal Response was an over-reach" in response to "small fires" being set in the federal building. Imagine what the response would have been if they'd managed to burn out one or more floors of the building instead?

Also consider how Republicans would have been responding to Trump "having allowed this to happen" after it was "made clear the Portland Police couldn't adequately protect the building."

The "Storm Troopers" weren't there to stir the pot. The Federal Police were sent in to prevent Trump from looking bad by having a Federal Building destroyed or significantly damaged under his watch. Fenring's option D is probably the closest one to the truth.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on August 03, 2020, 03:50:42 PM
If, for instance, I want to walk down the street to the post office to mail a letter, and there's a mob of people who hate the mail system, and you tell me that if I walk to the post office it will rile them up, I do not think there is any world in which I am *responsible* in any way for them throwing bottles if I decide to go anyhow.
If you see the angry mod, and think that by walking to the post office at that time there is a significantly increased chance of triggering an escalation that might lead to people getting hurt, or a building getting torched, then yes, you would be absolutely responsible for the resulting violence if it were to escalate.  Those are foreseeable results of actions you chose to take.

Funny that you seem to be using almost the completely inverted argument many of us have been making about the "Peaceful protesters" showing up to a protest during a time frame where they knew mayhem and violence was very likely to occur... And "a reasonable person" should be able to realize that by being there as "a peaceful protester" they're helping provide cover for said mayhem makers.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on August 03, 2020, 04:00:03 PM
If you see the angry mod, and think that by walking to the post office at that time there is a significantly increased chance of triggering an escalation that might lead to people getting hurt, or a building getting torched, then yes, you would be absolutely responsible for the resulting violence if it were to escalate.

I believe your position hinges on this point, ok. I'd like to know if you'd make precisely the same argument for a woman walking past an angry protest at an abortion clinic. If she walks past the protest and they start being violent, she is absolutely responsible for the resulting violence, right?
If a person going to, say, an abortion clinic, thought that the likely result of their action would be an escalation of violence by a mob of people present, or the likely torching of the clinic, and they chose to undertake that action, then yes.  This is self evident. 

Of course, in this hypothetical, the person has to have that expectation. Given that thousands of people have crossed past abortion clinic protesters without triggering explosive violence makes it a tough argument to make, since if thousands of other people do it safely, the likelihood of me triggering such a reaction is slim.

Whereas sending masked, unidentifiable stormtroopers into large protests where there is already friction is a pretty well known commodity.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: Wayward Son on August 03, 2020, 07:04:52 PM
The best case you can make is that their presence was inciting violence. And if anyone has a problem with a LEO simply being present in a public space, especially one they're charged with protecting, there are larger problems that need addressed, and it isn't the LEO.
Yes, this is exactly what people have pointed out - the introduction of the stormtroopers predictably escalated tensions, and the completely predictable actions/reactions on both sides fed into each other.

Knowing that introducing the stormtroopers would escalate tensions and the resulting conflicts is on the administration.  Responsibility for any particular instances of violence in on each protester or stormtrooper. Whether human nature is such that people should automatically respect police authority, and that any resulting lack of respect is something that can be "addressed" is an interesting question, but quite separate from the actions of the administration leading to escalating violence.

The "Federal Stormtroopers" didn't turn up until those "peaceful protesters" had broken into the federal building, after several nights of attempts being foiled by the Portland Police, and started causing property damage inside the building.

So you're saying Federal agents turning up to protect Federal Buildings from being set on fire, something which had already happened, would cause things to escalate to people trying to burn down the Federal Building... Something they were already doing?

OK.  What day was it when the protesters broke into the Federal building, which building was it, and what damage did they do to it?  I'm curious to review the timeline of this.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: Fenring on August 03, 2020, 11:02:06 PM
If a person going to, say, an abortion clinic, thought that the likely result of their action would be an escalation of violence by a mob of people present, or the likely torching of the clinic, and they chose to undertake that action, then yes.  This is self evident. 

No, this isn't quite the parallel. Rather, you'd have to agree that if you thought that a person going to an abortion clinic would likely result in an escalation of violence by a mob of people present, and they did so, that you would come to the determination that they are responsible for the violence. That's the limit of what I said in my previous post; but if we're going to go by the full parallel then we might also ask you to agree that you'd be asserting that a woman going to an abortion clinic under those conditions probably did so to escalate the protest. The reason this is the accurate parallel is because we cannot assume her intentions or knowledge in advance any more than we can about Trump. Sure, the most likely reason for a Federal official to send in officers during a violent protest is to establish order, but it's possible that it was done with malice aforethought; just like we could probably assume that a woman going to an abortion clinic is going there to get an abortion, but it's possible she's going there to incite a reaction. You sure you want to be the one to accuse her of malice aforethought when walking into an abortion clinic? I find it very hard to believe you would come to that as your first hypothesis in that situation.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDrake on August 03, 2020, 11:55:02 PM
Passive opposition is a lot different than active opposition. Using pepper spray on people is different than trying to walk past someone to get to a clinic. Especially in a public atmosphere of making statements about how you're going to clear the streets. I think a more appropriate analogy is going to somebody's conservative speech with the intention of blocking their path and interfering with them, which is often called out as provoking violence.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on August 04, 2020, 12:21:54 AM
The "Federal Stormtroopers" didn't turn up until those "peaceful protesters" had broken into the federal building, after several nights of attempts being foiled by the Portland Police, and started causing property damage inside the building.

So you're saying Federal agents turning up to protect Federal Buildings from being set on fire, something which had already happened, would cause things to escalate to people trying to burn down the Federal Building... Something they were already doing?

OK.  What day was it when the protesters broke into the Federal building, which building was it, and what damage did they do to it?  I'm curious to review the timeline of this.

https://www.dhs.gov/news/2020/07/16/acting-secretary-wolf-condemns-rampant-long-lasting-violence-portland

Gives a biased overview of things up to mid-July.

highlights from the Federal perspective(I'm ignoring damage to fencing surrounding federal facilities, which can also be defined as damage to Government Property/Trespass, likewise ignoring graffiti claims):
Quote
06/08/2020
Violent anarchists broke a window at the Hatfield Courthouse while pelting the building with objects.
...
06/10/2020
...
Violent anarchists attempted to remove wooden barriers from a window on the Hatfield Courthouse.
...
06/13/2020
Violent anarchists destroyed the card reader at the Hatfield Courthouse by ripping it off its mount.
Violent anarchists destroyed the fence at the Hatfield Courthouse.
Violent anarchists threw metal pipes at the Hatfield Courthouse, causing Portland Police to issue a disbursal warning for unlawful assembly.
...
06/25/2020
Violent anarchists vandalized an FPS camera at the Hatfield Courthouse. (FPS = Federal Protective Service)
...
06/30/2020
Violent anarchists ripped down plywood covering the windows at the Edith Green-Wenell Wyatt Building, before breaking the windows.
...
7/01/2020
Violent anarchists graffitied new plywood covering the windows at the Hatfield Courthouse and ripped down plywood on the other side of the building.
...
07/02/2020
Violent anarchists broke a front window to the Hatfield Courthouse and attempted to enter the building.
Violent anarchists refused orders to vacate the Hatfield Courthouse area, and instead launched fireworks and threw objects at officers, while attempting to cause eye damage with lasers. One explosive firework was shot into the courthouse.
FPS law enforcement officers were forced to utilized crowd control measures for safety.
07/03/2020
After ongoing riots around the Hatfield Courthouse, crowds were dispersed only to make a return later into the night.
Violent Anarchists broke the front window of the Hatfield U.S. Courthouse and shot fireworks into the building.
Violent anarchists firebombed the building. Federal law enforcement extinguished the fire.

Up to this point it has only been FPS and the Portland Police defending the building. At this point "The Federal Storm Troopers" are brought in.

Quote
07/04/2020
Around 1,000 violent anarchists spray painted, threw rocks, and shot fireworks (including mortar style fireworks) at the Hatfield Courthouse. They also destroyed a security camera at the facility.
A CBP team supporting FPS at the courthouse arrested suspects from the graffiti and camera vandalism incidents.
The mob continued to throw rocks and paint-filled balloons, while attempting to breach the doors.
Teams were forced to utilize crowd control measures for safety.
Multiple individuals were seen carrying rifles, including the driver of a vehicle who attempted to strike a Portland Police Bureau officer with his car in front of the Hatfield Courthouse.

Portland Police version of some of these events:
The night of July 2nd:
https://www.portlandoregon.gov/police/news/read.cfm?id=250945
Quote
Around 11:42 p.m., Federal officers inside the courthouse came outside to protect the integrity of their building. While federal officers were outside, demonstrators began launching projectiles at the officers with sling shots. These projectiles included large rocks, full cans, and bottles. Demonstrators also threw lit commercial grade fireworks, which landed inside the broken glass doors of the federal courthouse. Simultaneously, demonstrators began setting a fire nearby on Southwest Main Street.

The sound truck made an admonishment telling demonstrators that they must cease the criminal activity of throwing projectiles and fireworks. Demonstrators were also warned if they did not cease the illegal actions and back away from the building, they would be subject to use of force, to include crowd control munitions. Even though the demonstrators were given several warnings by the sound truck, their criminal actions continued.

To protect the life and safety of personnel both inside and outside of the Federal Court House, at 11:52 p.m., a riot was declared. The sound truck admonished the crowd letting demonstrators know a riot had been declared. Demonstrators were told they needed to leave the area to the south and west immediately. If demonstrators did not leave the area, they were subject to tear gas and crowd control munitions. The sound truck gave this admonishment several times, however, demonstrators continued to stay in the area.

Officers began dispersing the crowd in an effort to move them from the immediate area. During this lawful action, the demonstrators were very hostile and violent towards officers. An open pocket knife was thrown at an officer, coming within inches from striking them. Demonstrators continued to throw large rocks and full cans, as well as shot off commercial grade fireworks towards officers. During this time, several arrests were made. Once demonstrators were at Southwest 6th Avenue and Southwest Main Street, officers disengaged the crowd.

Around 12:46 a.m., demonstrators returned to the west side of the federal courthouse. Once again, demonstrators were warned by the sound truck that the riot declaration was still in effect and they needed to leave the area. At this time, demonstrators started launching mortars towards the federal courthouse and a fire erupted inside of the building where the glass doors had been broken.

Because of this immediate life safety issue, officers once again began to disperse the crowd. As they dispersed the crowd, demonstrators continued to throw rocks, cans, and commercial grade fireworks and mortars towards officers. Because of the violent nature of the demonstrators while officers cleared the area, crowd control munitions were used and several arrests were made. As officers began to disengage the crowd at Southwest Main Street and Southwest Broadway Avenue, commercial grade fireworks were once again thrown at officers.

Several demonstrators trickled back in to the Lownsdale and Chapman Park but eventually dispersed over the next several hours.

No CS gas was used by Portland Police Bureau officers during this event.


The night of July 3rd, morning of July 4th:
https://www.portlandoregon.gov/police/news/read.cfm?id=250947
Quote
Around 12:53 a.m., a few of the demonstrators began throwing rocks at the Federal Courthouse building. Some of these rocks broke windows. At around 1:30 a.m., some demonstrators began shooting the commercial grade fireworks towards the Justice Center. Many demonstrators were carrying makeshift shields and sticks.
...

In on-going efforts to de-escalate the situation, PPB members stayed away from the demonstrators, as there was not an identified life safety risk.

At about 4 a.m., the Federal courthouse was attacked. A riot was declared and efforts were made to get the crowd to disperse, including numerous warnings to leave the area or be subject to arrest or force.

PPB did not deploy CS gas at any point during the overnight demonstrations.

Also for reference they "burned the elk" on the night of July 1st.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on August 04, 2020, 12:41:45 AM
July 4th/morning of the 5th, as I forgot that in the previous:
https://www.portlandoregon.gov/police/news/read.cfm?id=250952
Quote
At 10:48 p.m., demonstrators continued launching fireworks and projectiles at the Federal Courthouse. Because of this, several windows were broken and fireworks and projectiles entered the Federal Courthouse building.

To protect the life and safety of personnel both inside and outside of the Federal Court House, just after 11 p.m., a riot was declared. Officers began dispersing the crowd moving demonstrators from the closed area of Southwest Broadway to Southwest 1st Avenue, Southwest Columbia to Southwest Yamhill Street.

As officers dispersed the crowd, demonstrators threw bricks, mortars, M-80s, and other flammables towards them. To defend themselves from serious injury, officers used crowd control munitions and tear gas at this time. Lasers were directed at Officer's eyes, which is unlawful.
Despite having moved from the closed area, demonstrators began to trickle back to Southwest 3rd Avenue, starting a large bonfire in the middle of Southwest 3rd Avenue and Southwest Main Street 1 a.m.

During the dispersal, numerous business windows were shattered by members of the crowd. Officers made several arrests, including one at Southwest Main Street and Broadway where a male fought with officers. Officers were able to get him in custody and recovered an illegally possessed loaded firearm and a knife.

Between 1 and 2 a.m., some individuals launched fireworks, smoke bombs, and mortars at and near the Federal Courthouse. Crowd control munitions were deployed in the area.

The crowd continued to remain in the area and engage in riotous behaviors involving fireworks, lit fires, smashing windows, and targeting officers with dangerous projectiles. The closure area was extended to I-405 and Southwest 1 Avenue and Columbia to Burnside Streets.

Several Officers sustained injuries throughout the night, mostly due to mortars and fireworks thrown at them by members of the crowd, which exploded on or near them.

Most of the crowd was dispersed by 4:30 a.m.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: Fenring on August 04, 2020, 01:15:05 AM
Passive opposition is a lot different than active opposition. Using pepper spray on people is different than trying to walk past someone to get to a clinic. Especially in a public atmosphere of making statements about how you're going to clear the streets. I think a more appropriate analogy is going to somebody's conservative speech with the intention of blocking their path and interfering with them, which is often called out as provoking violence.

Obviously no analogy will map on a strictly 1-to-1 basis. If you want to quibble I could remind you that from the perspective of the abortion protester the woman effectively has announced that she's there to do violence (to the fetus). And I could quibble more that the point made earlier in the thread isn't that the protesters reacted violently to any actual offensive action taken by federal agents, but rather than the actual fact of them arriving was enough to incite violence.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on August 04, 2020, 01:26:44 AM
And I could quibble more that the point made earlier in the thread isn't that the protesters reacted violently to any actual offensive action taken by federal agents, but rather than the actual fact of them arriving was enough to incite violence.

The "funny thing" is the closest that came to "offensive action" were the street grabs. Everything else was defensive. Don't want to be gassed or hit with other crowd control munitions? Don't attack/threaten the Federal Building, or anywhere near the vicinity of anyone who is.

Even worse for the counter-claim on this.  The protester activities before the CBP officers turned up was essentially the same as their behavior after. And it's very odd that the protester behavior "took it up to 11" on the very same night that CBP turned up to assist FPS. That doesn't strike me as a response to CBP turning up, it seems more like they escalated expecting the same response as the night before, only found a stronger counter-response than they expected.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on August 04, 2020, 06:16:30 AM
No, this isn't quite the parallel. Rather, you'd have to agree that if you thought that a person going to an abortion clinic would likely result in an escalation of violence by a mob of people present, and they did so, that you would come to the determination that they are responsible for the violence.
Not what I said at all.  It doesn't matter what 'you' think 'their' expectation was, it matters what 'their' expectation was.

'You' can certainly have a belief about what their expectation was.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: Fenring on August 04, 2020, 01:43:18 PM
No, this isn't quite the parallel. Rather, you'd have to agree that if you thought that a person going to an abortion clinic would likely result in an escalation of violence by a mob of people present, and they did so, that you would come to the determination that they are responsible for the violence.
Not what I said at all.  It doesn't matter what 'you' think 'their' expectation was, it matters what 'their' expectation was.

'You' can certainly have a belief about what their expectation was.

You can guess, but stating as a fact what their expectation was is off the table. I like speculating as much as the next guy, but you cannot submit a statement of someone else's intent as anything more than just that. You want to believe that Trump sent in officers just to create a backlash, go right ahead - so long as (along the lines of my analogy) you think it's equally reasonable to conclude that a woman going to an abortion clinic past protesters is doing it just to rile them up. My point is that I don't think your logic would track into cases of an opposite political alignment, and it is my speculation that Trump gets his own special analysis involving assuming the worst motives that would not be applied to other cases.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on August 04, 2020, 04:28:09 PM
"Peaceful protesting" continues in Portland:
https://www.portlandoregon.gov/police/news/read.cfm?id=251067

Quote
On Monday, August 3, 2020, multiple events took place. At about 9:00p.m., vehicles were used by protesters to block traffic in downtown Portland around Lownsdale Square park. However, the gathering was mostly peaceful and PPB did not interact with the crowd other than two previously released incidents. See other releases for further information on those.

...

Over the course of hours, some members of the group began throwing objects at officers and flashing laser pointers, bright flashlights, and strobe lights in the officers' eyes. Officers instructed people to stay off the property. The same instructions were made via a loudspeaker and over PPB's Twitter account.

At about 11:30p.m., members of the crowd entered the Kelly Building property. Officers made an arrest. The officers making the arrests had numerous items thrown at them.

At 11:46p.m., due to criminal activity, the gathering was declared an unlawful assembly. After numerous instructions via loudspeaker, officers moved the crowd to the east. During the dispersal, the officers had paint balloons and other objects thrown at them. One officer was punched. Another was injured in the arm by a protester swinging a stick or baton. Another arrest was made. After moving the crowd several blocks, officers deployed inert smoke to allow officers to safely disengage.


https://www.portlandoregon.gov/police/news/read.cfm?id=251066
Quote
On Monday, August 3, 2020 at about 10:00p.m., Portland Police received a report of a suspect pointing a handgun at people in the area of Southwest 4th Avenue and Southwest Taylor Street. Oregon State Police were in the area and attempted to arrest the suspect. A hostile crowd surrounded the law enforcement officers, so they requested help from the nearest crowd control unit. Oregon State Police Mobile Response Team (MRT) responded and secured the area to allow the investigators to safely make the arrest. As soon as the suspect was transported away from the scene, the MRT began to disengage. Objects were thrown at the MRT members, including one glass object that struck a Trooper in the head and shattered. Munitions were deployed to defend the retreating MRT unit. Three Troopers suffered minor injuries during the event.

A suspect, a juvenile male, was detained and a realistic looking replica firearm, metal knuckles, and a knife were seized as evidence (photos). The investigation is continuing.

https://www.portlandoregon.gov/police/news/read.cfm?id=251065
Quote
Officers have determined that the stabbing took place in Lownsdale Square park when an adult female suspect entered the park taking photos and/or video. An argument ensued between the female and other people in the park. During the argument, the female produced a knife and stabbed another female in the chest. The victim is being treated at a hospital and her injuries appear to be non-life threatening.
...
During the initial response, officers encountered a hostile crowd and additional police resources were summoned to try to conduct an investigation. Officers initially located the knife used in the stabbing, however as the officers were trying to secure a crime scene someone picked it up and ran off with it. Officers were unable to safely conduct an investigation due to the hostile crowd, and supervisors made the decision to disengage. As the knife is evidence, it should be returned to police custody.

But hey, at least the Federal Storm Troopers aren't getting involved in Portland anymore.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on August 04, 2020, 04:45:35 PM
July 22nd:
https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1290418202820788224
People removing plywood over a window, the horror!:
https://twitter.com/USAO_OR/status/1290418202820788224/photo/1

7 minutes later, the window has a hole in it now, and someone is doing something:
https://twitter.com/USAO_OR/status/1290418202820788224/photo/2

90 seconds later, federal agents are coming out the broken window in pursuit, as a fire appears to burn inside the room?
https://twitter.com/USAO_OR/status/1290418202820788224/photo/3

https://www.justice.gov/usao-or/pr/portland-man-charged-assaulting-deputy-us-marshal-explosive-device-during-courthouse
Quote
PORTLAND, Ore.—U.S. Attorney Billy J. Williams announced today that Isaiah Jason Maza, Jr., 18, of Portland, has been charged by criminal complaint with assaulting a federal officer with a dangerous weapon and willfully damaging government property during protests at the Mark O. Hatfield U.S. Courthouse on July 22, 2020.

According to court documents, in the early morning hours of July 22, 2020, a group of individuals gathered in an exterior entryway of the Hatfield Federal Courthouse. Several members of the group, including Maza, began removing plywood attached to the front of the building to protect its damaged glass façade. After the group successfully removed the plywood sheeting, Maza made multiple attempts to kick in the window, struck it with a metal object, and repeatedly pounded on it with what appeared to be a hammer.

Shortly thereafter, a number of people successfully removed the entire wooden structure protecting the courthouse entryway and an unknown individual broke one of the windows. After this breach, Maza walked toward the building carrying a cylindrical object. Maza then appeared to light a fuse connected to the object and place it inside the broken window. A short time later, the object exploded in close proximity to law enforcement officers exiting the building through the broken window. A deputy U.S. Marshal sustained injuries to both his legs as a result of the blast.

and putting the lie to the claim that the Feds were gone by Thursday:
Quote
On July 31, 2020, deputy U.S. Marshals spotted Maza less than one block from the courthouse. Maza ran from the deputy marshals who pursued him several blocks by foot before catching and arresting him.

Sounds like "the snatchers" were still running around in the 31st.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDrake on August 04, 2020, 04:50:44 PM
Wow the first 14 posts of this nature failed to make your point, but adding this one more just convinced everyone! Nice Job!
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on August 04, 2020, 05:27:09 PM
Wow the first 14 posts of this nature failed to make your point, but adding this one more just convinced everyone! Nice Job!

The July 22nd incident they just shed light on demonstrates "the power of optics" very well however.

The only people among the protesters who "knew what happened" could likely be counted on one hand.

Meanwhile, for everyone else, they just saw some protesters tearing down plywood and damaging a glass window that was likely going to be replaced anyway. "Funny ha ha!"

What they didn't see was the explosive device being placed inside the Federal Building. And thus everyone else can claim the police response was "disproportionate and inappropriate" for the situation they were aware of because they were unable to see what triggered the response.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on August 04, 2020, 05:40:26 PM
Found this while browsing back looking for the Mayor's "brave appearance" at the protest. Decided to link to those images from twitter in the context of the PPB report from that evening.
Last night looks to have been rather eventful in Portland. Broken windows at the Federal Building, and attempted arson of a government building among other things going by Twitter. Portland Police haven't posted their police log version of things, but given that all of what happened involved the feds, they may now be under pressure from their Mayor to not report on that stuff... Or there simply is that much to report on that it's taking longer than usual to compile, after their Mayor banned on-site Federal co-ordinators with the PPB, so the information flow is being hampered.

Edit: It's missing from the index for their news feed on their own site, but could find it via twitter:

https://www.portlandoregon.gov/police/news/read.cfm?id=251017
Quote
...
Around 1:00 a.m., some people associated with the group opened a fire hydrant at Southwest 3rd Avenue and Southwest Taylor Street and added soap to the water causing a hazard downtown. Some other people downtown set several small fires while other people vandalized and spray painted both city, federal, and private property. At 1:27 a.m., another fire was lit outside an exit door on the south side of the Federal Courthouse and the group successfully tore off a large piece of plywood protecting some glass doors on the west side of the building.
TimeStamp 01:37:55
https://twitter.com/USAO_OR/status/1290418202820788224/photo/1
TimeStamp 01:44:53
https://twitter.com/USAO_OR/status/1290418202820788224/photo/2
Quote
Quote
At 1:45 a.m., Federal Police Officers once again were forced to disperse the crowd west from the building. During the dispersal, a large fire was started in the middle of Lownsdale Square.
TimeStamp 01:46:12
https://twitter.com/USAO_OR/status/1290418202820788224/photo/3

And looking back on that, looks like I also double posted the police report of that night, I'll have to go find the July 22nd/23rd report now to account for the Mayor's visit, as I incorrectly attributed the previous night to "his night" on the scene.

edit: Correct police report for events from the night of his visit:
https://www.portlandoregon.gov/police/news/read.cfm?id=251022
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: Wayward Son on August 04, 2020, 06:36:28 PM
Quote
Up to this point it has only been FPS and the Portland Police defending the building. At this point "The Federal Storm Troopers" are brought in.

So up until July 3 or so, the violence consisted of graffiti, broken windows and damaged fences, from what I can see.

And according to this site (https://gunsandamerica.org/story/20/07/20/50-days-of-portland-protests-pdx-timeline/), Federal Officers confronted the crowds on July 1.  So they were already there on July 3.

So as far as I can see, the "Federal agents turning up to protect Federal Buildings from being set on fire" (which seems to have happened with fireworks on July 4, if I read this correctly--what a surprise! ;) ), actually had not happened until AFTER they showed up.  Which means the Federal agents were not a reaction to up-ticking violence, but most likely vice-versa.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDrake on August 05, 2020, 12:16:52 AM
Wow the first 14 posts of this nature failed to make your point, but adding this one more just convinced everyone! Nice Job!

The July 22nd incident they just shed light on demonstrates "the power of optics" very well however.

The only people among the protesters who "knew what happened" could likely be counted on one hand.

Meanwhile, for everyone else, they just saw some protesters tearing down plywood and damaging a glass window that was likely going to be replaced anyway. "Funny ha ha!"

What they didn't see was the explosive device being placed inside the Federal Building. And thus everyone else can claim the police response was "disproportionate and inappropriate" for the situation they were aware of because they were unable to see what triggered the response.

Your commitment to collective punishment is strong. It reminds me of Israel running roughshod over noncombatants in Gaza because they won't overwhelm the terrorists and stop them from firing rockets. Could that truck marked with ambulance markings have terrorists in it? Maybe. But you still don't blow it up with a drone. In large part because of "optics". Are those equivalent? Not at all. Lethal force is different than less than lethal options. But it is still a reckless disregard and makes you look like crap, and it is on the same spectrum. Is it 100% fair? No, it isn't. But if you want to take the moral high ground, you accept the tactical disadvantage and live with it. What's the best thing to do? Address the problems that have peaceful protesters in the street, you take away the human shields for people who really just want revolution against the state. Oregon tried to fake it, and leave loopholes for cops to keep doing what they've been doing all along. It was transparent and infuriating to those demanding real reform.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on August 05, 2020, 03:31:57 AM
Quote
Up to this point it has only been FPS and the Portland Police defending the building. At this point "The Federal Storm Troopers" are brought in.

So up until July 3 or so, the violence consisted of graffiti, broken windows and damaged fences, from what I can see.

And according to this site (https://gunsandamerica.org/story/20/07/20/50-days-of-portland-protests-pdx-timeline/), Federal Officers confronted the crowds on July 1.  So they were already there on July 3.

First off, the Federal Protective Service are the guys that are normally charged with protecting Federal Buildings. It has an organizational history going back to 1790, they're only a year younger than the US Marshall's service, although they've gone through multiple name changes over the years as they moved between various administrative departments. Without regard to who PotUS is, absent a presidential directive directing otherwise, what the FPS did up to that point is very likely to have happened without regard to who PotUS is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Protective_Service_(United_States)

This also is where timeline confusion comes into play. Is July 1 talking about the night of June 30/July 1, or the night of July 1/July 2?

And I love how that article leads with the peaceful protesters starting July by gathering around the Elk Statue. The very same statue they burned that very same evening and damaged its base badly enough that Portland removed the statue the next morning out of concerns it might fall on someone(that and it needed cleaning/restoration after being vandalized and burned anyway).

Quote
7/01/2020
Violent anarchists graffitied new plywood covering the windows at the Hatfield Courthouse and ripped down plywood on the other side of the building.
...
07/02/2020
Violent anarchists broke a front window to the Hatfield Courthouse and attempted to enter the building.
Violent anarchists refused orders to vacate the Hatfield Courthouse area, and instead launched fireworks and threw objects at officers, while attempting to cause eye damage with lasers. One explosive firework was shot into the courthouse.
FPS law enforcement officers were forced to utilized crowd control measures for safety.

Based on the Portland Police reports, the 07/03 report from this summary(not quoted here) would be for the morniing of the third, not the evening. So the 07/02 entry is the morning of the 2nd, and the 07/01 entry is the morning of the first.

So for the FPS their first "significant confrontation" with the crowd was the morning of the 2nd, as reported by DHS. Sadly the PPB doesn't have a police report covering that night to corroborate. But from the DHS version, the officers didn't do anything until someone started to forcibly enter the building, and again when someone started shooting fireworks into their building. Which would match up with:

Quote
Then federal law enforcement officers began appearing at the daily protests.

At first, activists viewed the agents as a minor nuisance compared to officers from the Portland Police Bureau, who for many nights before had used impact munitions and tear gas to drive demonstrators away from the building that houses the county jail and out of downtown Portland."

Because they only came out when the building they were defending was being attacked, rather than simply being defaced. And as per the DHS version of things, the building didn't start getting attacked in earnest until the morning of July 2nd.

Then on July 3rd, as per DHS:
Quote
Violent Anarchists broke the front window of the Hatfield U.S. Courthouse and shot fireworks into the building.
Violent anarchists firebombed the building. Federal law enforcement extinguished the fire.
So again, the building was attacked, not just vandalized. So again, as per their SOP, they came out to respond to the attack. But that's now two nights in a row that FPS came out... And you did notice the entry about "Firebombed" on the 3rd? The PPD also reflected that with this from the night of the 2nd/morning of the 3rd:
https://www.portlandoregon.gov/police/news/read.cfm?id=250945
Quote
Around 12:46 a.m., demonstrators returned to the west side of the federal courthouse. Once again, demonstrators were warned by the sound truck that the riot declaration was still in effect and they needed to leave the area. At this time, demonstrators started launching mortars towards the federal courthouse and a fire erupted inside of the building where the glass doors had been broken.

Because of this immediate life safety issue, officers once again began to disperse the crowd. As they dispersed the crowd, demonstrators continued to throw rocks, cans, and commercial grade fireworks and mortars towards officers. Because of the violent nature of the demonstrators while officers cleared the area, crowd control munitions were used and several arrests were made.

So as far as I can see, the "Federal agents turning up to protect Federal Buildings from being set on fire" (which seems to have happened with fireworks on July 4, if I read this correctly--what a surprise! ;) ), actually had not happened until AFTER they showed up.  Which means the Federal agents were not a reaction to up-ticking violence, but most likely vice-versa.

So CBP forces turning up to support the FPS agents on the 4th somehow magically made the fire on the 3rd not happen, and also retroactively made the breach on the 2nd and the fireworks being shot into the building not happen on that night as well?

But getting back to your linked article:
Quote
But by July 4, that mission shifted as federal officers cleared demonstrators blocks away from federal property. Over the next two weeks, their tactics became increasingly aggressive.

Well, more manpower being available means more aggressive tactics are available as you are capable of being able to do more(you can "counterattack" and defend at the same time), and one of the best defensive actions you can take is move the crowd far enough away that they cannot endanger the building further... By lauching more fireworks into windows they just broke. And again, of course, those Federal agents only came out and did so after somebody attacked the Federal Building... odd that. But that does make for three nights in a row where Federal Agents have come out to disrupt crowds... That happened to attack Federal property rather than simply spray paint it.

Don't believe me? Even the PPB says the Federal Building was being attacked on the morning of the 4th, I've already quoted them on this matter. So I'll just give you the link.
https://www.portlandoregon.gov/police/news/read.cfm?id=250947

On the night of July 4, morning of July 5th, another attack with unsurprising Federal response:
https://www.portlandoregon.gov/police/news/read.cfm?id=250952
Quote
At 10:48 p.m., demonstrators continued launching fireworks and projectiles at the Federal Courthouse. Because of this, several windows were broken and fireworks and projectiles entered the Federal Courthouse building.
...
Between 1 and 2 a.m., some individuals launched fireworks, smoke bombs, and mortars at and near the Federal Courthouse. Crowd control munitions were deployed in the area.

The crowd continued to remain in the area and engage in riotous behaviors involving fireworks, lit fires, smashing windows, and targeting officers with dangerous projectiles.

So nightly attacks on the Federal building, with corresponding nightly responses, odd how that works. Do we really need to rehash this or do you want to ignore the matter that the Feds were responding to escalations rather than doing escalating?

And looking at the twitter feed for the PPB, it seems to be mostly peaceful around the federal building atm, but they're trying to wreck the Portland Police Association building again, they've declared a riot.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on August 05, 2020, 03:37:44 AM
Your commitment to collective punishment is strong. It reminds me of Israel running roughshod over noncombatants in Gaza because they won't overwhelm the terrorists and stop them from firing rockets. Could that truck marked with ambulance markings have terrorists in it? Maybe. But you still don't blow it up with a drone. In large part because of "optics". Are those equivalent? Not at all. Lethal force is different than less than lethal options. But it is still a reckless disregard and makes you look like crap, and it is on the same spectrum. Is it 100% fair? No, it isn't. But if you want to take the moral high ground, you accept the tactical disadvantage and live with it. What's the best thing to do? Address the problems that have peaceful protesters in the street, you take away the human shields for people who really just want revolution against the state. Oregon tried to fake it, and leave loopholes for cops to keep doing what they've been doing all along. It was transparent and infuriating to those demanding real reform.

How is telling people that an assembly has become a public safety risk and that for that reason they must relocate a punnishment?

The "punishment" you're talking about is when the Crowd Control Munitions were employed, which pretty consistently came with 5+ minutes work of advanced warnings in most cases.

You have a 1st amendment right to protest, but you do not have a 1st amendment right to endanger public safety. And when you start disobeying lawful orders from a LEO, well, I'm not going to be very sympathetic about what happens next if it is happening in the context of other parties being violent towards those same LEOs.

Even for the Non-violent old-school protesters, being arrested and/or detained was a badge of honor, although that isn't supposed to involve you getting arrested alongside a guy that was throwing rocks or launching explosives at said officers.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on August 06, 2020, 11:51:39 AM
"Peaceful" Portland protesters find a Portland woman outside her house wearing a Nazi armband. Shine bright lights and laser pointers into her eyes while also physically confronting her. Not going to support her, but it's pretty ironic that the same people who take issue with "federal snatchers" don't see a problem with this:

https://twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1291322964512837633

Of course, that only happened after the Portland Police removed them from the vicinity of their East Precinct building, where those "protesters" set a fire at the entry door to the building.

https://twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1291316396236963842

Night of August 5/morning of August 6
https://www.portlandoregon.gov/police/news/read.cfm?id=261071
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on August 06, 2020, 12:21:56 PM
https://twitter.com/DailyCaller/status/1290739667357376531

timestamp 1:09

113 out of 277 injuries sustained by DHS Personnel in Portland have been eye injuries.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDrake on August 06, 2020, 12:22:50 PM
The people with the laser pointers were obviously not peaceful protesters. How many people were shining laser pointers? How many got physical with her? This is at the heart of the appropriate phrase "mostly peaceful protesters". The video on NY Post shows about 6-7 people confronting her. We don't see whether they are alone, or if they broke off from 500 people marching and singing. I don't know why you think that anyone is making the argument that protesters in Portland are 100% nonviolent.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: Fenring on August 06, 2020, 12:32:24 PM
The people with the laser pointers were obviously not peaceful protesters. How many people were shining laser pointers? How many got physical with her? This is at the heart of the appropriate phrase "mostly peaceful protesters". The video on NY Post shows about 6-7 people confronting her. We don't see whether they are alone, or if they broke off from 500 people marching and singing. I don't know why you think that anyone is making the argument that protesters in Portland are 100% nonviolent.

I think TheDeamon's point is something to the tune of people here accusing Trump of escalating a peaceful protest into being violent, whereas his point is that it was already violent to an extent which according to him hasn't appreciably changed as a result of DHS presence. I don't have a factual thing to add to any of this, other than it sounds super-fishy to me to argue that it's Trump's fault that some violence has ensued. I don't know, I guess it's possible, but somehow it doesn't ring true.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on August 06, 2020, 12:35:34 PM
The people with the laser pointers were obviously not peaceful protesters. How many people were shining laser pointers? How many got physical with her?

At the 23 second mark, I could count 4 different laser pointers being directed towards her vicinity. Of course, video being what it is, and their tendency to shift them around quickly, it could be after images. There definitely were at least three pointers in use just based on the angles and some other factors I was seeing in the mix. (One of the people with a laser is either short, or was inside a car)

Quote
This is at the heart of the appropriate phrase "mostly peaceful protesters". The video on NY Post shows about 6-7 people confronting her. We don't see whether they are alone, or if they broke off from 500 people marching and singing. I don't know why you think that anyone is making the argument that protesters in Portland are 100% nonviolent.

At least with the twitter video, there is enough sound present that doesn't seem to line up with what's happening at the door to suggest that a second group was gathered on/along the street but otherwise staying on public right-of-ways, but as I haven't seen video of that crowd, can't begin to even guess. Presumably there are at least 4, the cameraperson, and the ones with the laser pointers.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on August 06, 2020, 12:41:51 PM
The people with the laser pointers were obviously not peaceful protesters. How many people were shining laser pointers? How many got physical with her? This is at the heart of the appropriate phrase "mostly peaceful protesters". The video on NY Post shows about 6-7 people confronting her. We don't see whether they are alone, or if they broke off from 500 people marching and singing. I don't know why you think that anyone is making the argument that protesters in Portland are 100% nonviolent.

I think TheDeamon's point is something to the tune of people here accusing Trump of escalating a peaceful protest into being violent, whereas his point is that it was already violent to an extent which according to him hasn't appreciably changed as a result of DHS presence. I don't have a factual thing to add to any of this, other than it sounds super-fishy to me to argue that it's Trump's fault that some violence has ensued. I don't know, I guess it's possible, but somehow it doesn't ring true.

Pretty much this.

These protests have a "violent core" attached to it that have been from present from the start, and the presence of the Feds simply provided them a target to focus their attention on, rather actually escalate the violence in and of themselves.

That "violent core" wants a police response. Which should be plainly obvious now that once command of the Federal Building's security was given to the state, the protesters started targeting the Portland Police Department and their union/association buildings and once again resuming the practice of "gradual escalation" over the course of the night until the Police come in to clear them out.

So they can then try to get footage of "police brutality" to try to get more people to rally to their cause.

The Portland protests aren't about Black Lives Matter, and never really have been, although many of its participants like to think they were. The Portland Protests are all about waging psychological warfare.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: Wayward Son on August 06, 2020, 01:18:17 PM
Quote
These protests have a "violent core" attached to it that have been from present from the start, and the presence of the Feds simply provided them a target to focus their attention on, rather actually escalate the violence in and of themselves...

The Portland protests aren't about Black Lives Matter, and never really have been, although many of its participants like to think they were. The Portland Protests are all about waging psychological warfare.

This exemplifies what is pissing us off, Deamon.

First you talk about the "violent core," which by implication is a minority of the protesters.  (If it were a majority, it wouldn't be a "core" now, would it? ;) )

Then you make a blanket statement that "the Portland protests aren't about..." based on what this core minority does.

This is what we mean when we say that you are blaming the entire protest on the actions of a minority.  Suddenly the intentions of everyone outside of the "violent core" is subsumed by this "core."

Have you ever considered that the protests are really all about Black Lives Matters and justice for all Americans, not just the ones that look right, and it is this "violent core" that is exploiting it to wage their psychological warfare against the will of the majority? ;)
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on August 06, 2020, 01:46:40 PM
I think TheDeamon's point is something to the tune of people here accusing Trump of escalating a peaceful protest into being violent
I don't think anybody here is making that argument.  Few if any of the protests have been completely devoid of any violence.  It is almost impossible nowadays to have a peaceful protest not get co-opted by fringe violent groups.  That doesn't make the primarily peaceful protests violent.  It makes them simply visible.

Trump's actions, however, have been to pour kerosene on a camp fire.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: rightleft22 on August 06, 2020, 01:57:43 PM
Quote
These protests have a "violent core" attached to it that have been from present from the start, and the presence of the Feds simply provided them a target to focus their attention on, rather actually escalate the violence in and of themselves...

The Portland protests aren't about Black Lives Matter, and never really have been, although many of its participants like to think they were. The Portland Protests are all about waging psychological warfare.

This exemplifies what is pissing us off, Deamon.

First you talk about the "violent core," which by implication is a minority of the protesters.  (If it were a majority, it wouldn't be a "core" now, would it? ;) )

Then you make a blanket statement that "the Portland protests aren't about..." based on what this core minority does.

This is what we mean when we say that you are blaming the entire protest on the actions of a minority.  Suddenly the intentions of everyone outside of the "violent core" is subsumed by this "core."

Have you ever considered that the protests are really all about Black Lives Matters and justice for all Americans, not just the ones that look right, and it is this "violent core" that is exploiting it to wage their psychological warfare against the will of the majority? ;)

I would add that we have tendency to define a group based on the actions of a few or make the bad apple argument. Which way be decide to defend or define a group tells us more about ourselves then the group or issue.

Take those who lean toward the 'Law and Order' argument. Often in this case the protesters are defined by the actions of the few while the police are left off the hook and not being defined by the "few bad apples". (I've done this many times myself without realizing the contradiction in my arguments)


Ibram X makes a pretty good argument that when it comes to race Blacks are more often defined by the actions of a individuals which may be at the heart of a lot of racist policies.  Need to defend a policy that discriminates? Define the group by the actions of a few individuals.  Its a interesting observations. In this context the The Portland protests discussions are very much about race issues.


Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDrake on August 06, 2020, 02:01:37 PM
That's got to be the most successful destabilization campaign in history, and all perpetrated by twenty year olds who work in fast food and retail. The CIA must be jealous.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: Fenring on August 06, 2020, 03:12:46 PM
Have you ever considered that the protests are really all about Black Lives Matters and justice for all Americans, not just the ones that look right, and it is this "violent core" that is exploiting it to wage their psychological warfare against the will of the majority? ;)

This wasn't addressed to me, but it's a good case in point for why the country is going through a rough patch. It's not because there's a protest; sometimes things need to be protested, that's good. It's because right now each side needs to prove how evil the other side is, on any topic and using any example. In the case of a protest the left needs to keep showing how it proves how bad Trump is and how the right is supporting an authoritarian government; and the right needs to keep showing how it proves how much of a menace the [radical] left is and how all they really want is destruction. Nevermind how everyone can learn from it, or agree on the problems to solve, no - it needs to just be another call to arms against the other side, with the incident of the protest itself just being yet another signpost of what's wrong with the evil ones.

That is why the country is going through a rough patch. Not because there are some bad people out there among good-intentioned others, but because a growing majority want to hate each other rather than heal and grow. It's what happens in war-torn African countries, and it's sad and scary to see happening in North America. Even the Canadians are on board the hate train on one side or the other, although probably more on the side of the American left.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on August 06, 2020, 03:24:16 PM
That's got to be the most successful destabilization campaign in history, and all perpetrated by twenty year olds who work in fast food and retail. The CIA must be jealous.

Plenty of 30 and 40-somethings getting arrested alongside them.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on August 06, 2020, 03:59:51 PM
Quote
These protests have a "violent core" attached to it that have been from present from the start, and the presence of the Feds simply provided them a target to focus their attention on, rather actually escalate the violence in and of themselves...

The Portland protests aren't about Black Lives Matter, and never really have been, although many of its participants like to think they were. The Portland Protests are all about waging psychological warfare.

This exemplifies what is pissing us off, Deamon.

First you talk about the "violent core," which by implication is a minority of the protesters.  (If it were a majority, it wouldn't be a "core" now, would it? ;) )

Then you make a blanket statement that "the Portland protests aren't about..." based on what this core minority does.

This is what we mean when we say that you are blaming the entire protest on the actions of a minority.  Suddenly the intentions of everyone outside of the "violent core" is subsumed by this "core."

Have you ever considered that the protests are really all about Black Lives Matters and justice for all Americans, not just the ones that look right, and it is this "violent core" that is exploiting it to wage their psychological warfare against the will of the majority? ;)

 ::)

I'm sure the sudden increase in protesters after the reports about "federal stormtroopers" and "secret police" operating in Portland were entirely in response to people being concerned about Police unjustly profiling and killing black men while in custody, and had nothing to do with a psychological operation that had been running in the city for the 6 weeks prior to that. I mean, that totally explains why all of those people suddenly returned to the woodwork after "the federal issue" had been resolved by the Governor agreeing to send in the state police.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DJQuag on August 07, 2020, 03:30:24 AM
As a mostly lurker have to say that the whole hearted support of beating the living *censored* out of people for being in a general area around others who allegedly did bad things is not something I expected out of you Daemon.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDrake on August 07, 2020, 02:01:37 PM
Tiananmen square was an unlawful assembly also. Hong kong had people breaking security cameras and throwing bottles. Northern Ireland had bombs placed in pubs. Boston had people breaking into private houses and TAR AND FEATHERING public officials.

In the end:

Crackdowns never quell the violence, no matter how justified you might think they are.
Only true lasting systemic change does. That can come violently or it can come peacefully.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: wmLambert on August 07, 2020, 02:08:56 PM
The problem is not Covid-19 nor George Floyd. It is all about the election and history. In 2006, 2008, 2016, 2018, and now, the Democrats purposefully sabotaged the economy. Vote-scamming has always been their game plan, They were frantic to do anything they could to savage Trump. Trump's metrics before the Coronavirus rated him as the greatest President of all time, and his reelection was guaranteed. Their attempt at a coup failed, and it looks lake many of them will go to prison for lying and illegal spying. The Coronavirus to them was a Godsend, because they jumped on it with both feet. When Trump was stopping entry to block the disease vector, Pelosi was in China Town hugging people and calling him racist. As soon as the disease penetrated, she said he hadn't done enough. A 180° degree flip, both aimed at denigrating Trump. Sabotaging the economy was the goal - never just health concerns. Slowing down emergency funding to offset the shut down by adding poison pill add-ons was only designed to make things worse.

The media has been slow to look at the metrics coming from Sweded. They decided the best way to treat the Pandemic was to protect the most endangered, and allowing the young with no co-morbidity to build herd immunity. There was a spike in March and April when the senior centers were most affected, but the trend is indisputable. Although this is the right way to go, and to revitalize the economy by opening everything while protecting those with co-morbidity factors, will not be allowed by the Dems until after the election.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fadamaltmejd.se%2Fcovid%2F&psig=AOvVaw3t_ZFWnSJbNoSK_KDLsjIx&ust=1596906965916000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CAIQjRxqFwoTCLiogJvMiesCFQAAAAAdAAAAABAD
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDrake on August 07, 2020, 02:19:44 PM
Sweded?

wmL posts are so entertaining, and even more so if you read them as if Gilbert Gottfried was reading them.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDrake on August 07, 2020, 02:26:10 PM
FYI, 25% of America is in the risk category for age, chronic health, etc. It's not like you can just sequester 75 million people from the others. Particularly because as soon as your employer "opens up", your risk category gets you fired if you stay home.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: wmLambert on August 07, 2020, 03:05:19 PM
FYI, 25% of America is in the risk category for age, chronic health, etc. It's not like you can just sequester 75 million people from the others. Particularly because as soon as your employer "opens up", your risk category gets you fired if you stay home.

FYI? 25% is a made-up number. 25% of the population may get sick from other issues - but how many have co-morbidity and may die of other causes which will be attributed to Covid-19 for the money and Democrat message it might bring? Sweden allowed the young to get exposed to Covid, just like families used to have measles and mumps parties to get past the threats while kids are young and able to become immune. Protecting the endangered makes sense, and is a lot easier than slowing the young from getting past it and extending the contagion.

Look at the chart from the link I posted. What do you disagree with?
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on August 07, 2020, 03:47:21 PM
Yes, 25% was hand-waving, but not the way you think.

Obesity is considered a risk factor for negative COVID-19 outcomes (https://hub.jhu.edu/2020/06/01/david-kass-obesity-covid-19/). The obesity rate in the USA? 36%

Age above 60 years old is also considered a risk factor for negative COVID-19 outcomes (https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/need-extra-precautions/older-adults.html).  People above 60 years old make up about 20% of the population in the USA.

About 10% of the population has diabetes. 

Hypertension? More than 30%

Sure there is overlap, maybe significant, but no amount of overlap will get you under 35%.

Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDrake on August 07, 2020, 03:48:12 PM
What, your double redirect link to a static chart graphic with no context or sources? Love it.

Quote
What is the current situation?
COVID-19 risk in Sweden is high. CDC recommends travelers avoid all nonessential international travel to Sweden. Some examples of essential travel may include traveling for humanitarian aid work, medical reasons, or family emergencies. Older adults, people of any age with certain underlying medical conditions, and others at increased risk for severe illness should consider postponing all travel, including essential travel, to Sweden.

If you get sick in Sweden and need medical care, resources may be limited. Plan ahead and learn more about Getting Health Care Abroad.

If you get sick with COVID-19 (or test positive for COVID-19, even if you have no symptoms) while abroad, you may be isolated or not be permitted to return to the United States until you have recovered fully from your illness. If you get exposed to a person with COVID-19 while abroad, you may be quarantined or not be permitted to return to the United States until 14 days after your last exposure.

cdc.gov

Quote
share to facebook
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A woman wearing a protective mask and giving the thumbs up sign in front of the flag of Sweden
Despite never implementing a full-scale lockdown, Sweden has managed to flatten its curve, prompting its health leadership to claim victory -- but others question the cost of the strategy, as the country has a far higher death toll than its Scandinavian neighbors.

In late July, Sweden's 7-day moving average of new cases was about 200, down from a peak of around 1,140 in mid-June. Its daily death totals have been in the single digits for two weeks, well below its mid-April peak of 115 deaths in a single day.


However, on a per-capita basis, Sweden far outpaces its Scandinavian neighbors in COVID deaths, with 567 deaths per million people compared with Denmark's 106 deaths per million, Finland's 59 deaths per million, and Norway's 47 deaths per million. The Swedish figure is closer to Italy's 581 deaths per million.

While the positive trends have led Anders Tegnell, PhD, chief epidemiologist at the Swedish Public Health Agency and architect of Sweden's coronavirus strategy, to state that the "Swedish strategy is working," others have criticized the approach, including two dozen Swedish academics who published a recent USA Today editorial.

"In Sweden, the strategy has led to death, grief, and suffering," they wrote. "On top of that, there are no indications that the Swedish economy has fared better than in many other countries. At the moment, we have set an example for the rest of the world on how not to deal with a deadly infectious disease."

How Did Sweden Flatten Its Curve Without a Lockdown? (https://www.medpagetoday.com/infectiousdisease/covid19/87812)

Quote
"Swedes in general have changed their behavior to a great extent during the pandemic and the practice of social distancing as well as physical distancing in public places and at work has been widespread," said Maria Furberg, MD, PhD, an infectious diseases expert at Umea University Hospital in northeastern Sweden.

"During the months of March to early June, all shops were practically empty, people stopped dining with friends, and families stopped seeing even their closest relatives," Furberg told MedPage Today. "A lock-down could not have been more effective. Handwashing, excessive use of hand sanitizers, and staying home at the first sign of a cold became the new normal very quickly."


Mozhu Ding, PhD, an epidemiologist at the famed Karolinska Institute, said the decline is "likely to be a combination of measures taken by individuals, businesses and a widespread information campaign launched by the government."

"Even without a strict lockdown order, many businesses allowed employees to work from home, and universities are offering distance courses to the students," Ding told MedPage Today. "Individuals are also taking personal hygiene more seriously, as items like hand sanitizers and single-use gloves are often sold out in pharmacies and grocery stores."

There is no indication that the Swedes held contamination parties that I could find. They acted responsibly on their own.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDrake on August 07, 2020, 03:51:01 PM
Yes, 25% was hand-waving, but not the way you think.

Obesity is considered a risk factor for negative COVID-19 outcomes (https://hub.jhu.edu/2020/06/01/david-kass-obesity-covid-19/). The obesity rate in the USA? 36%

Age above 60 years old is also considered a risk factor for negative COVID-19 outcomes (https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/need-extra-precautions/older-adults.html).  People above 60 years old make up about 20% of the population in the USA.

About 10% of the population has diabetes. 

Hypertension? More than 30%

Sure there is overlap, maybe significant, but no amount of overlap will get you under 35%.

Also this.

Quote
More than 25 million Americans have asthma. This is 7.7 percent of adults and 8.4 percent of children.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: wmLambert on August 07, 2020, 05:57:40 PM
What you're deliberately missing is that the Swedes addressed the threat to the endangered - not everyone. They also allowed voluntary measures, and not use of Gestapo tactics. They also didn't let hardened criminals out of prison or ignore protecting those in nursing homes. NY is panicking because people have learned they can work from a distance, which means they don't have to live in the city and pay the exorbitant taxes and high rents. The mayor wants to outlaw workers from the hinterlands, the opposite of what he filed a lawsuit  against earlier. So much hypocrisy.

You know that as soon as the election is over, the Dems will suddenly allow people to return to work. However; that may depend upon them winning so they can claim the good results. If not, they may continue to drag their feet.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDrake on August 07, 2020, 06:03:45 PM
What you're deliberately missing is that the Swedes addressed the threat to the endangered - not everyone. They also allowed voluntary measures, and not use of Gestapo tactics. They also didn't let hardened criminals out of prison or ignore protecting those in nursing homes. NY is panicking because people have learned they can work from a distance, which means they don't have to live in the city and pay the exorbitant taxes and high rents. The mayor wants to outlaw workers from the hinterlands, the opposite of what he filed a lawsuit  against earlier. So much hypocrisy.

You know that as soon as the election is over, the Dems will suddenly allow people to return to work. However; that may depend upon them winning so they can claim the good results. If not, they may continue to drag their feet.

I'm sure it will fit your narrative neatly when Democrats win and people return to work, but it will be because of a vaccine, not some nefarious plot.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: wmLambert on August 07, 2020, 06:53:33 PM
,,,I'm sure it will fit your narrative neatly when Democrats win and people return to work, but it will be because of a vaccine, not some nefarious plot.

Th only narrative is the Democrat one that the economy must be destroyed before the election to blame on Trump. How can you not see that? If they were anticipating a vaccine coming to the rescue, then they would ballyhoo it now. Instead, they play it down, and their only statements are how Trump has done a bad job of corralling Covid, neh?

Timing is what proves the plot. When Obama took office, everything he did wrong, he blamed on Bush, even though it was the Democrat House majority that tried to wreck the economy under Bush. Obama hurt the economy worse and worse until the GOP gained the House, then when they brought the economy back it was him and not them. Trump did great, but when the Dems gained the House, they started doing the same thing and fought every step to help. Obama claimed it was his successes that let Trump do all the good he did, but never used the word good in the same sentence with Trump. The sad truth is that it was Trump undoing the Obama Executive Orders that did the most good. Destroying the Obama legacy did the most  good. Obama claims everything was his idea, except getting rid of his ideas is what saved the economy. Same timing now. Trump creates new ways to get vaccines, and it is not mentioned - but if they win in November they will claim all the success.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on August 07, 2020, 07:44:43 PM
As a mostly lurker have to say that the whole hearted support of beating the living *censored* out of people for being in a general area around others who allegedly did bad things is not something I expected out of you Daemon.

I guess I need to go digging. There was a certain street preacher who had an unpleasant encounter with those "peaceful protesters" about a month ago. He's chained himself to a traffic light pole prior to their arrival. Never saw the footage of him getting taken off the pole, but they subsequently knocked him unconscious. then carried him into a side-alley where one of the women involved asked if she could kick his face in.

But yeah, it was only the Feds who were out of control. I've already commented on that Navy Veteran, I think there is more to the story than what the press has covered and I'm withholding judgement until the IG report comes back on that.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on August 07, 2020, 07:57:19 PM
Also missed this one yesterday:
https://www.kptv.com/news/mayor-wheeler-on-rioters-setting-fire-at-portland-police-building-you-are-attempting-to-commit/article_8e01541e-d839-11ea-8736-4b746b521476.html
Quote
Mayor Ted Wheeler had strong words for rioters who blocked exits and started a fire at the Portland Police Bureau’s East Precinct building.

“When you commit arson with an accelerant in an attempt to burn down a building that is occupied by people who you have intentionally trapped inside, you are not demonstrating, you are attempting to commit murder,” Wheeler said during an online press conference Thursday.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDrake on August 07, 2020, 08:20:48 PM
As a mostly lurker have to say that the whole hearted support of beating the living *censored* out of people for being in a general area around others who allegedly did bad things is not something I expected out of you Daemon.

I guess I need to go digging. There was a certain street preacher who had an unpleasant encounter with those "peaceful protesters" about a month ago. He's chained himself to a traffic light pole prior to their arrival. Never saw the footage of him getting taken off the pole, but they subsequently knocked him unconscious. then carried him into a side-alley where one of the women involved asked if she could kick his face in.

But yeah, it was only the Feds who were out of control. I've already commented on that Navy Veteran, I think there is more to the story than what the press has covered and I'm withholding judgement until the IG report comes back on that.

What more do you need? Even if he had been committing arson five minutes before hand and the cops watched him do it, it doesn't justify corporal punishment. And if he committed a crime, why wasn't he arrested?
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DJQuag on August 07, 2020, 08:54:27 PM
As a mostly lurker have to say that the whole hearted support of beating the living *censored* out of people for being in a general area around others who allegedly did bad things is not something I expected out of you Daemon.

I guess I need to go digging. There was a certain street preacher who had an unpleasant encounter with those "peaceful protesters" about a month ago. He's chained himself to a traffic light pole prior to their arrival. Never saw the footage of him getting taken off the pole, but they subsequently knocked him unconscious. then carried him into a side-alley where one of the women involved asked if she could kick his face in.

But yeah, it was only the Feds who were out of control. I've already commented on that Navy Veteran, I think there is more to the story than what the press has covered and I'm withholding judgement until the IG report comes back on that.

I'm sure you've got links to back up your narrative.

All I'm saying is that as someone who normally doesn't post but does watch the threads that you chose this hill to die on surprised me. Like, you're *invested* or at least acting like it and I don't get why.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on August 10, 2020, 01:37:13 PM
https://www.fox6now.com/news/wauwatosas-mayor-to-meet-with-police-chief-discuss-how-to-keep-officer-joseph-mensah-safe
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDrake on August 10, 2020, 04:02:26 PM
https://www.fox6now.com/news/wauwatosas-mayor-to-meet-with-police-chief-discuss-how-to-keep-officer-joseph-mensah-safe

That's not good, but it is result of the erosion of trust in police.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on August 11, 2020, 10:38:53 AM
Seattle's City Council just cut their police budget, despite wide spread community outcry NOT to do so, their (Black and female) Police Chief has resigned in protest. And the rioting continues in Seattle.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDrake on August 11, 2020, 02:19:36 PM
Seattle's City Council just cut their police budget, despite wide spread community outcry NOT to do so, their (Black and female) Police Chief has resigned in protest. And the rioting continues in Seattle.

Quote
Budget measures approved Monday will trim about $3 million of the department’s $400 million annual budget this year.

A less than 1% cut! How terrifying! It's going to be a lawless city now! Of course this happened just two years ago.

Quote
SPD’s budget will increase by 9.7% to $363 million.

I think they'll manage.

Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on August 16, 2020, 06:59:52 PM
Have been busy with other things, checked back on things and it appears to have escalated a lot in the past few days.

But there was this gem as well:

https://www.oregonlive.com/crime/2020/08/state-police-pull-troopers-out-of-portland-return-troopers-to-regular-assignments.html

Quote
Oregon State Police on Thursday pulled out the approximately 100 troopers helping both federal officers and Portland police in responding to nightly protests in the city that have often ended in confrontations with demonstrators and arrests.

State police committed to two weeks “and that two weeks ended today,” said spokesman Capt. Timothy R. Fox.

“We’re in a county that’s not going to prosecute this criminal behavior,” Fox added.

It was a pointed reference to Tuesday’s announcement by new Multnomah County District Attorney Mike Schmidt that his office won’t pursue many of the charges against demonstrators, including disorderly conduct, interfering with a police officer and even riot in some circumstances.

They embedded a link to report from Tuesday about that, it can be found here:

https://www.oregonlive.com/crime/2020/08/hundreds-of-portland-protesters-will-see-their-criminal-cases-dropped-as-da-announces-plan-to-recognize-the-right-to-speak.html

So it seems the only agencies that can get the violent protesters off the street for the duration are now the Federal Agents protecting the federal buildings, as those charges are going through the US Attorney's office and the county prosecutor can't do anything to stop that.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDrake on August 17, 2020, 12:03:55 AM
Misrepresentation Deamon? From your own article:

Quote
“What we’re doing is recognizing that the right to speak and have your voice heard is extremely important,” Schmidt said. “If you’re out there committing violence, you’re damaging property, those cases are going to be prosecuted. If you’re a person who is out there demonstrating and you get caught up in the melee, those are the kinds of cases that we’re talking about.”

So no, they aren't giving a free pass to the people actually committing criminal acts.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on August 17, 2020, 12:51:43 AM
Misrepresentation Deamon? From your own article:

Quote
“What we’re doing is recognizing that the right to speak and have your voice heard is extremely important,” Schmidt said. “If you’re out there committing violence, you’re damaging property, those cases are going to be prosecuted. If you’re a person who is out there demonstrating and you get caught up in the melee, those are the kinds of cases that we’re talking about.”

So no, they aren't giving a free pass to the people actually committing criminal acts.

Bu more selective yourself?

ALSO from that article:
Quote
The office also won’t prosecute people on a riot accusation alone. Prosecutors will proceed with a riot case only if it includes an accompanying allegation of specific property damage or use of force, he said.

...

About 550 cases have been referred to the District Attorney’s Office for prosecution since May 29 after people began to rally against police violence and systemic racism in the wake of the May 25 death of George Floyd, a Black man who died after a white Minneapolis police officer knelt on his neck for more than eight minutes.

Of those cases, about 140 have been for felony crimes, including assault, arson, riot and theft. Of the felonies, prosecutors are pursuing charges in about 45 of the cases, with the rest either dropped or under review as prosecutors seek more information from police, said Nathan Vasquez, a senior deputy district attorney.

But I think the Oregon State Police spokesman in the initial(later) article sums it up well:
Quote
“The Oregon State Police is continually reassessing our resources and the needs of our partner agencies and at this time we are inclined to move those resources back to counties where prosecution of criminal conduct is still a priority,” he said.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDrake on August 17, 2020, 01:38:58 AM
Ok, but maybe, just maybe, lots of cases were referred that fell into that category of people who can't actually be proved to be involved? As you state, 140 cases were referred. 45 are being pursued. Maybe the other 95 were spurious and not clearly linked with evidence? I admit, we the public may not be able to objectively evaluate that. But 1/3 of cases are still more than no cases.

Of course the state police want every single thing they report to get charged. It isn't exactly unusual for a DA to not pursue a poorly founded case, is it?
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: yossarian22c on August 26, 2020, 01:16:47 PM
Armed protesters commit vandalism and destruction of government property and the officers don't arrest anyone.

Quote
protesters, some of them armed, shoved their way past state troopers
...
the confrontation with state troopers, which resulted in the shattering of a glass door
...
State Police personnel determined they could not have made arrests on the spot without elevating the potential for violence

https://www.npr.org/2020/08/25/905785548/unmasked-protesters-push-past-police-into-idaho-lawmakers-session (https://www.npr.org/2020/08/25/905785548/unmasked-protesters-push-past-police-into-idaho-lawmakers-session)

Whoops, not the Portland lawless mob. We can all relax, these are right wing protesters with guns storming a state legislature. Nothing to worry about.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDrake on August 26, 2020, 01:55:16 PM
Armed protesters commit vandalism and destruction of government property and the officers don't arrest anyone.

Quote
protesters, some of them armed, shoved their way past state troopers
...
the confrontation with state troopers, which resulted in the shattering of a glass door
...
State Police personnel determined they could not have made arrests on the spot without elevating the potential for violence

https://www.npr.org/2020/08/25/905785548/unmasked-protesters-push-past-police-into-idaho-lawmakers-session (https://www.npr.org/2020/08/25/905785548/unmasked-protesters-push-past-police-into-idaho-lawmakers-session)

Whoops, not the Portland lawless mob. We can all relax, these are right wing protesters with guns storming a state legislature. Nothing to worry about.

Not obeying police orders?!! BLAM BLAM BLAM! Wait, no? Oh, you say they were white guys?
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: Lloyd Perna on August 26, 2020, 02:27:09 PM
Fake news.  I just watched the video. This is what a peaceful protest is supposed to look like. They didn't force their way in, They waited peacefully at the entrance until they were let past.  On what grounds do you think they should have been arrested?
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on August 26, 2020, 02:41:27 PM
Armed protesters commit vandalism and destruction of government property and the officers don't arrest anyone.

Quote
protesters, some of them armed, shoved their way past state troopers
...
the confrontation with state troopers, which resulted in the shattering of a glass door
...
State Police personnel determined they could not have made arrests on the spot without elevating the potential for violence

https://www.npr.org/2020/08/25/905785548/unmasked-protesters-push-past-police-into-idaho-lawmakers-session (https://www.npr.org/2020/08/25/905785548/unmasked-protesters-push-past-police-into-idaho-lawmakers-session)

Whoops, not the Portland lawless mob. We can all relax, these are right wing protesters with guns storming a state legislature. Nothing to worry about.

Apples and oranges, but let us look at the perfidity of these guys.

Quote
But after the confrontation with state troopers, which resulted in the shattering of a glass door, Republican House Speaker Scott Bedke relented and allowed protesters to fill every seat.

I'd be all for determining if the property destruction was intentional and pressing charges against the vandal in question. Assuming it can be demonstrated as intended.

Quote
The response stands in stark contrast to 2014 when dozens of advocates pressuring lawmakers to pass LGBTQ protections were arrested for standing silently in a hallway, blocking access to the Idaho Senate chamber.

"Public Safety" becomes part of the consideration here, actual peaceful protesters don't pose a safety risk when confronted by law enforcement. People should remember also that for peaceful protesters getting arrested for civil disobedience is a badge of honor.

It's not fair, and sucks in a lot of ways, but it is the way the world works. As the Portland protesters and now many others are now demonstrating.

Quote
On Monday, an Idaho State Police spokeswoman, Lynn Hightower, said she wasn't aware of any pending charges against protesters. The following day she released a statement saying that "Idaho State Police personnel determined they could not have made arrests on the spot without elevating the potential for violence," and that an investigation was ongoing into any criminal behavior "that may have occurred.

Sounds great to me.

Quote
Protesters later made their way into committee rooms, defaced paper signs meant to leave one empty seat between those in the audience and laughed at one Democratic state lawmaker who refused to participate in the hearing because of the lack of social distancing.

The horror!

Also coming back to:
Whoops, not the Portland lawless mob. We can all relax, these are right wing protesters with guns storming a state legislature. Nothing to worry about.

https://www.idahostatesman.com/news/politics-government/politics-columns-blogs/politics-blog/article83142507.html

Quote
Security in the Capitol is generally unobtrusive — there are no metal detectors, for example, and visitors have unrestricted access to public areas even on weekends. In line with Idaho’s pro-gun thinking, weapons are not banned in the building. They were for 12 years, initially under a 1996 executive order by Gov. Phil Batt that was twice renewed by his successor, Dirk Kempthorne.

But in 2008, lawmakers passed a law that only the Legislature could regulate firearms in Idaho. Later that year, Gov. Butch Otter allowed the Statehouse weapons ban to expire. It was unclear, his office said at the time, whether the governor could restrict firearms given the new law.

Being armed in Idaho's State Capital building is legal?

Whoops, not the Portland lawless mob. We can all relax, these are right wing protesters with guns storming a state legislature. Nothing to worry about.

Not obeying police orders?!! BLAM BLAM BLAM! Wait, no? Oh, you say they were white guys?

Proportionate response comes into play, the officers had no reason to believe an imminent threat to life was present, and likely lacked non-lethal options in sufficient quantities to otherwise address the issue. Being armed in the capital building is legal and does not in and of itself demonstrate a threat in the context of that building.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDrake on August 26, 2020, 04:22:09 PM
But they were disobedient! Unarmed people who are disobedient are shot in the street, never mind about entering government property. These guys were told "you cannot enter this chamber" and they refused to follow orders. Then they were resisting as the door didn't break itself. The Republican speaker encouraged this disorder by letting them do whatever they wanted and withdrawing the cops.

Tell me you think that it would go down the same way if they were wearing BLM shirts leaving every other detail identical.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on August 26, 2020, 04:48:42 PM
But they were disobedient! Unarmed people who are disobedient are shot in the street, never mind about entering government property. These guys were told "you cannot enter this chamber" and they refused to follow orders. Then they were resisting as the door didn't break itself. The Republican speaker encouraged this disorder by letting them do whatever they wanted and withdrawing the cops.

Tell me you think that it would go down the same way if they were wearing BLM shirts leaving every other detail identical.

If it was BLM they would have been setting fires and threatening the police officers while hurling epithets at the police.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDrake on August 26, 2020, 05:00:52 PM
Oh, I forgot. Everyone sporting a BLM t-shirt is a violent Antifa terrorist.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on August 26, 2020, 05:13:22 PM
Some of the Antifa terrorists shot people yesterday Kenosha
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDrake on August 26, 2020, 05:19:50 PM
Antifa is off track. I didn't say what if they formed a black bloc and tried to rush in to the government building with fireworks, bicycle locks, and molotov cocktails.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: Wayward Son on August 26, 2020, 06:32:23 PM
Some of the Antifa terrorists shot people yesterday Kenosha

What makes you think it was Antifa?

Apparently a militia group called for armed protesters to show up last night. (https://mashable.com/article/kenosha-militia-shooting-protest-facebook/)  What makes you think it wasn't one of them?
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDrake on August 26, 2020, 06:50:44 PM
Some of the Antifa terrorists shot people yesterday Kenosha

What makes you think it was Antifa?

Apparently a militia group called for armed protesters to show up last night. (https://mashable.com/article/kenosha-militia-shooting-protest-facebook/)  What makes you think it wasn't one of them?

I think that's what Donald intended, to present another reversal, but it was a little cryptic for me. I had to look up the story - which actually doesn't specify who that individual was or why he was there. It does appear that the vigilantes are being given a free pass to be on the streets after curfew.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: Mynnion on August 26, 2020, 06:55:42 PM
The individual was a 17 year old white male who appears to have been part of a group from outside Kenosha that came to town to protect it.  There are sources stating he was a wannabe police officer but that may just be hearsay.  He was certainly not associated with Antifa.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on August 26, 2020, 07:48:39 PM
Apparently, I omitted the [/sarc] tag...
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on August 26, 2020, 08:08:19 PM
Some of the Antifa terrorists shot people yesterday Kenosha

The Kenosha "shooter" last night was militia.

Haven't seen the video, don't know the circumstance on the first guy getting shot in the head but that caused the guy to start running from the scene.

A skateboarder ran him down/knocked him over and (reportedly) looked to about to hit the guy with the skateboard when the militia member shot at the skateboarder, which resulted in a shot through the chest(possibly even the heart) killing the skateboarder.

Which set the stage for the third guy getting shot in the arm when he drew a gun on the militia guy.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: Mynnion on August 26, 2020, 10:28:04 PM
Information is still vague on the first shooting however I was disgusted by the account on Fox that failed to mention the first shooting and only mentioned that he was being chased.  They didn't out and out say it was self-defense but leaving out the fact that he was being chased after he had shot someone makes it sound that way.  If the first attack hadn't occurred an argument of fear for his life might be made.  Hopefully Fox will do a better job moving forward.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on August 27, 2020, 01:00:29 PM
Information is still vague on the first shooting however I was disgusted by the account on Fox that failed to mention the first shooting and only mentioned that he was being chased.  They didn't out and out say it was self-defense but leaving out the fact that he was being chased after he had shot someone makes it sound that way.  If the first attack hadn't occurred an argument of fear for his life might be made.  Hopefully Fox will do a better job moving forward.

More information has come forward on that front, it appears that the shooter was trying to disengage with the first "victim" prior to shooting him. Victim #1 was chasing and verbally harassing the shooter prior to shots being fired, he even threw what looks to be a molotov cocktail at his eventual killer. The shooter then turned around and opened fire, ultimately killing the first guy. After which, according to recent reporting, it seems the world had one less registered sex offender/pedophile in the world.

Victim #2 has previously been covered,  but he also has a rap sheet, including battery and repeated instances of domestic abuse.

Victim #3(the only one to survive) also has a criminal record, by some reporting he is not legally allowed to posses a firearm, and now it seems he's not going to have much function in one of his arms going forward.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDrake on August 27, 2020, 01:14:40 PM
Victim #2 has previously been covered,  but he also has a rap sheet, including battery and repeated instances of domestic abuse.

What on God's green earth does that have to do with anything?
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on August 27, 2020, 01:26:28 PM
Victim #2 has previously been covered,  but he also has a rap sheet, including battery and repeated instances of domestic abuse.

What on God's green earth does that have to do with anything?

Nothing much, although it'll certainly help the shooter in making a self-defense case in front of a jury. His victims aren't very sympathetic characters, and that's likely to make the jury less inclined to seek justice on their behalf.

I also find it interesting that during a "protest" that was about Police Misconduct, 3 people get shot at this evident, and all three of them have Police Records of their own.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on August 28, 2020, 09:46:47 AM
Some of the Antifa terrorists shot people yesterday Kenosha

The Kenosha "shooter" last night was militia.

Haven't seen the video, don't know the circumstance on the first guy getting shot in the head but that caused the guy to start running from the scene.

A skateboarder ran him down/knocked him over and (reportedly) looked to about to hit the guy with the skateboard when the militia member shot at the skateboarder, which resulted in a shot through the chest(possibly even the heart) killing the skateboarder.

Which set the stage for the third guy getting shot in the arm when he drew a gun on the militia guy.
After watching the video - little if any of this is true.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: rightleft22 on August 28, 2020, 10:16:40 AM
What is the truth about Kyle Rittenhouse?

That he is a 17 year old boy
That he belonged to a 'militia'' that had no businesses to be on the streets very much responsible for creating what they fear.
That the police once again showed poor judgment is condoning the 'militia' presence. Had the militia been black that would not have been the case.

What is the truth is the America is loosing its mind

Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on August 28, 2020, 10:30:14 AM
Some of the Antifa terrorists shot people yesterday Kenosha

The Kenosha "shooter" last night was militia.

Haven't seen the video, don't know the circumstance on the first guy getting shot in the head but that caused the guy to start running from the scene.

A skateboarder ran him down/knocked him over and (reportedly) looked to about to hit the guy with the skateboard when the militia member shot at the skateboarder, which resulted in a shot through the chest(possibly even the heart) killing the skateboarder.

Which set the stage for the third guy getting shot in the arm when he drew a gun on the militia guy.
After watching the video - little if any of this is true.

Evidently the New York Times had a group of people going over livestream feeds from the night in question to see what happened. Even the New York Times people concluded he has a strong self-defense claim on all three shootings.

https://twitter.com/trbrtc/status/1298839097923063809

Quote
A teenager faces charges in shootings that left 2 people dead in Kenosha, WI. The @nytimes Visual Investigations team reviewed hours of livestreams to track 17-year-old Kyle Rittenhouse’s movements during and leading up to the shootings.

---
In the hours before the shooting incident, @KristanTHarris, @RichieMcGinniss and @ElijahSchaffer all interviewed Rittenhouse, who said he was protecting a local vehicle dealership together with several other armed men. He also offers medical assistance to protesters.
---
Rittenhouse is around that area in most of the footage we reviewed. About 15 minutes before the first shooting, police drive past Rittenhouse, and thank the group he’s with. “We appreciate you guys, we really do,” they broadcast through the speakers of their armored vehicles.
---
Rittenhouse walks up to a police vehicle with his rifle slung and talks with officers. One tosses a water bottle to the armed men, as seen in
@KristanTHarris's livestream.
---
Rittenhouse eventually leaves the dealership (https://t.co/udrONTtQEY?amp=1 (https://t.co/udrONTtQEY?amp=1)) and is barred by the police from returning, as seen
@Ruptly footage, six minutes before the shooting:https://t.co/bxzrk75jk8?amp=1 (https://t.co/bxzrk75jk8?amp=1)
---
To better understand what happened next, we synchronized 6 livestreams, which revealed that there were two separate shooting incidents, about one and a half minutes apart, involving multiple gunmen.
--- https://twitter.com/trbrtc/status/1298840777251008512
At 23:19, Rittenhouse is seen in this YouTube livestream. He's being chased into a parking lot. While he is being pursued, an unknown gunman fires the first shot into the air.
Also present in that video they highlight one of his pursuers had a handgun, also not mentioned here, the guy who wound up being shot is one of the pursuers, and is seen throwing what appears in other videos to be a Molotov cocktail which lands next to his feet, but thankfully for him, the bottle didn't break and explode into flames.

But continuing the thread..
Quote
Rittenhouse turns toward the sound of the gunfire as another pursuer lunges toward him. He then fires four times with his assault rifle, and appears to shoot the man in the head.
--- https://twitter.com/trbrtc/status/1298841139810893824
The muzzle flash of the first shot by the unknown gunman and the smoke rising from the handgun can be seen in this video capturing the first shooting from a different angle.
---
It’s unclear why Rittenhouse was being chased or why he was in the area of this car dealership about four blocks away from the one he claimed to be protecting. We do know vehicles in this lot were damaged minutes before the first shooting.
--- https://twitter.com/trbrtc/status/1298841820802297856
The initial shot and Rittenhouse’s four subsequent discharges of his AR-15-style weapon are followed by three more shots in the parking lot — we don’t know who fired them. Rittenhouse seems to make a phone call and then flees the scene.
--- https://twitter.com/trbrtc/status/1298842098163216384
While fleeing from the scene, Rittenhouse is again chased by several people. He trips and falls to the ground and fires four shots as three people rush him. One person appears to be hit in the chest, while another, who is carrying a handgun, is hit in the arm.
Incomplete description, but close, he is hit in the head by one protester whose own momentum causes him to keep moving across the street and away from Rittenhouse. Shortly after being hit in the head, Rittenhouse stumbles to the ground, at which point the second guy gets on top of Rittenhouse, where the video the NYTimes is using does NOT have a good angle, but it looks like Victim #2 is either hitting Rittenhouse with a skateboard, or is trying to use the skateboard to provide leverage for holding Rittenhouse down.

Rittenhouse rolls over with rifle in hand and fires up into the victim #2's stomach, and then fires again at the oncoming man with the handgun drawn.

In any case, this is a shades of grey situation, and Rittenhouse does seem to have a valid "in fear for my life" defense in this scenario, that video makes it clear that he was being pursued by a (justifiably) angry mob, and had every reason to fear what they might try... Considering one member of that mob had recently just tried to set him on fire with a molotov cocktail.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on August 28, 2020, 10:46:59 AM
Rittenhouse rolls over with rifle in hand and fires up into the victim #2's stomach, and then fires again at the oncoming man with the handgun drawn.
Look, there is no question that Rittenhouse was in a sh!tload of trouble by the time he was being chased, and very likely was fearing for his life.  But the third victim was simply not carrying a handgun. If you look at one video, and stop it just before he is shot, there is something 'funny' about his hand, and this is somehow characterized as a drawn handgun. We see what we expect to see.

But after Grosskreutz, the third victim, is shot in the arm (nearly severing it according to some reporting, but clearly, very seriously injured) he clearly grabs the injured arm with his other hand - the one supposedly holding the drawn gun - yet nowhere is that gun in evidence - he doesn't drop it, he isn't holding it between his hand and his arm, it's just gone. And honestly, after being shot in the arm and reflexively grabbing the injured limb, do you really think that hand would continue holding onto the gun while also clutching the injury?

Also, from when he had his hands in the air, empty, and when he supposedly points the gun at the shooter, his hands never do anything that could be conceivably interpreted as "drawing" the weapon - they don't even approach his body.

So we have a gun that miraculously appears in his hand from nowhere, then mysteriously disappears once he is shot.  Granted, videos are difficult to unpack sometimes, so I might have missed something, but it is not obvious if so.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: rightleft22 on August 28, 2020, 11:07:57 AM
Quote
Rittenhouse does seem to have a valid "in fear for my life"

Rittenhouse should never have been allowed to be in the situation. 

He and his 'brothers' are responsible in if not actual creating the conditions exasperating them to which they might 'gear for their lives"
By defending Rittenhouse in this way a segment of the population is supporting the idea handing over of policing to such 'militias' and this is not the DNC making the streets unsafe its the GOP
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on August 28, 2020, 11:20:10 AM
Quote
Rittenhouse does seem to have a valid "in fear for my life"

Rittenhouse should never have been allowed to be in the situation. 

He and his 'brothers' are responsible in if not actual creating the conditions exasperating them to which they might 'gear for their lives"
By defending Rittenhouse in this way a segment of the population is supporting the idea handing over of policing to such 'militias' and this is not the DNC making the streets unsafe its the GOP

Shades of grey. What happened with Rittenhouse is an example of why you allow law enforcement to do their jobs and protect private property, so that the private citizens don't attempt to do so in their stead. This also holds for the two guys who were subsequently shot while attempting to detain Rittenhouse during his run for the police line. What they should have done is followed him until he reached the police and made sure he was arrested. Instead they decided they wanted to make the police come for him... And probably rough him up more than a little in the interim.

When those enforcement actions shift from trained personnel to Joe Citizen, things will trend towards getting worse exponentially more quickly.

As some of my more conservative associates on Facebook posted back when "Defund the police" first started trending. "In a place without police, most crimes will come with a more immediate death penalty." And Rittenhouse just demonstrated the validity of that statement. Just like the Seattle CHAZ/CHOP did as well.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: rightleft22 on August 28, 2020, 12:47:16 PM
Quote
When those enforcement actions shift from trained personnel to Joe Citizen, things will trend towards getting worse exponentially more quickly.

As some of my more conservative associates on Facebook posted back when "Defund the police" first started trending. "In a place without police, most crimes will come with a more immediate death penalty." And Rittenhouse just demonstrated the validity of that statement. Just like the Seattle CHAZ/CHOP did as well.

And who is responsible for allowing the police enforcement to shift to Joe Citizen in this case. If I were to buy into what I heard in the RNC convention I might pick up a gun as well. Disgusting.

Your equating "Defund the police" = No police - is not what the majority of the people want with regards to addressing police issues mean when they use the term 'defund the police' Of course that dons't suit the "Law and order' narrative. But anyone who thinks "Defending the police" would = no police is a fool.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: wmLambert on August 28, 2020, 09:41:52 PM
...And who is responsible for allowing the police enforcement to shift to Joe Citizen in this case. If I were to buy into what I heard in the RNC convention I might pick up a gun as well. Disgusting.

Disgusting that you blame Trump for citizens arming themselves when the police are not allowed to protect them, because of Democrats and activists who want to defund the police, and Dem Mayors who order the police not to do their jobs. When I worked at the Criminal Justice 5nstitute, I learned that police do not stop crimes as they are committed. They come after the fact with clipboards to take notes. They tell citizens that it has always been the citizen's responsibility to protect themselves. The threshold laws usually limit self-protection to one's household, but when attacks begin to occur in the streets, of course self-protection must be extended.

Good training by groups like the NRA teach limits to self-protection with weapons. Any activist who attacks anyone brandishing a gun deserves his participation in the Darwin Awards.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on August 29, 2020, 04:56:53 PM
Quote
--- https://twitter.com/trbrtc/status/1298842098163216384
While fleeing from the scene, Rittenhouse is again chased by several people. He trips and falls to the ground and fires four shots as three people rush him. One person appears to be hit in the chest, while another, who is carrying a handgun, is hit in the arm.
Incomplete description, but close, he is hit in the head by one protester whose own momentum causes him to keep moving across the street and away from Rittenhouse. Shortly after being hit in the head, Rittenhouse stumbles to the ground, at which point the second guy gets on top of Rittenhouse, where the video the NYTimes is using does NOT have a good angle, but it looks like Victim #2 is either hitting Rittenhouse with a skateboard, or is trying to use the skateboard to provide leverage for holding Rittenhouse down.

Rittenhouse rolls over with rifle in hand and fires up into the victim #2's stomach, and then fires again at the oncoming man with the handgun drawn.

On a subsequent rewatch, you CAN see the skateboard, but it happens so fast, and the angle is such it is easy to miss.

I also missed a detail, Rittenhouse was hit in the head by the guy that then continued running past, he stumbles to the ground, where a second guy comes running across the top of him in an apparent effort to kick him while on the ground(timestamp 0:19) while Victim# is following up right behind the kicker, where for a couple of frames Victim#2 can been holding the skateboard with two hands apparently poised to strike with the board when hecomes tangled with Rittenhouse's legs and fumbles the board, where this photo (from the other side of the street) was then taken while Victim#2 was stumbling and the board hits Rittenhouse in the head:
https://twitter.com/mjs_DC/status/1298984879200190464/photo/1

At timestamp 0:21 on the chosen clip from the NYTimes, you can see Victim#2 drop the skateboard where it lands flatface down on the pavement before he picks it up again, where a split second later Rittenhouse opens fire and (fatally) shoots him. The guy in white pants who is seen rolling next to Rittenhouse in the above photo is the guy who (attempted to) kicked him.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on August 29, 2020, 09:07:10 PM
Quote
--- https://twitter.com/trbrtc/status/1298842098163216384
While fleeing from the scene, Rittenhouse is again chased by several people. He trips and falls to the ground and fires four shots as three people rush him. One person appears to be hit in the chest, while another, who is carrying a handgun, is hit in the arm.
Incomplete description, but close, he is hit in the head by one protester whose own momentum causes him to keep moving across the street and away from Rittenhouse. Shortly after being hit in the head, Rittenhouse stumbles to the ground, at which point the second guy gets on top of Rittenhouse, where the video the NYTimes is using does NOT have a good angle, but it looks like Victim #2 is either hitting Rittenhouse with a skateboard, or is trying to use the skateboard to provide leverage for holding Rittenhouse down.

Rittenhouse rolls over with rifle in hand and fires up into the victim #2's stomach, and then fires again at the oncoming man with the handgun drawn.
On a subsequent rewatch, you CAN see the skateboard, but it happens so fast, and the angle is such it is easy to miss.

I also missed a detail, Rittenhouse was hit in the head by the guy that then continued running past, he stumbles to the ground, where a second guy comes running across the top of him in an apparent effort to kick him while on the ground(timestamp 0:19) while Victim# is following up right behind the kicker, where for a couple of frames Victim#2 can been holding the skateboard with two hands apparently poised to strike with the board when hecomes tangled with Rittenhouse's legs and fumbles the board, where this photo (from the other side of the street) was then taken while Victim#2 was stumbling and the board hits Rittenhouse in the head:
https://twitter.com/mjs_DC/status/1298984879200190464/photo/1

At timestamp 0:21 on the chosen clip from the NYTimes, you can see Victim#2 drop the skateboard where it lands flatface down on the pavement before he picks it up again, where a split second later Rittenhouse opens fire and (fatally) shoots him. The guy in white pants who is seen rolling next to Rittenhouse in the above photo is the guy who (attempted to) kicked him.
Not sure what you are trying to argue, TheDaemon... a gunman was seen shooting somebody in the head, and he was still holding the gun and running away. You seem to be suggesting that the unarmed people who were attempting to disarm the gunman are somehow guilty of something.

Query me this - if the gunman was Muslim, and a crowd of unarmed people attempted to disarm the Muslim shooter, would you be pointing out how it looks like one of those people tried to hit him with a skateboard? Or what if he was a member of Antifa?
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on August 30, 2020, 03:15:57 AM
Not sure what you are trying to argue, TheDaemon... a gunman was seen shooting somebody in the head, and he was still holding the gun and running away. You seem to be suggesting that the unarmed people who were attempting to disarm the gunman are somehow guilty of something.

Query me this - if the gunman was Muslim, and a crowd of unarmed people attempted to disarm the Muslim shooter, would you be pointing out how it looks like one of those people tried to hit him with a skateboard? Or what if he was a member of Antifa?

Your response validates the "nightmare scenario" for "good guy with a gun" where a shooting happens, good guy brings out his gun and "handles" the shooter, just in time for others to decide he is the bad guy.

In the instance of the first shooting, Rittenhouse was not the first person to shoot, and as the New York Times outlined, the guy who was shot as a consequence of Rittenhouse's response, happened be in a direct line between Rittenhouse and where the muzzleflash from the first shots being fired could clearly be seen. That victim #1 had also just tried to set Rittenhouse on fire made his demise that much less tragic, and clearly self-defense. However, everyone else present is operating in "fog of war" and most of them don't know that, and have no way of knowing that.

That said, there are claims of earlier footage where Victim #1 and Vicitim #2 were threatening Rittenhouse prior to their ultimately fatal confrontations(I've only heard it talked about, haven't seen it, and haven't seriously tried to find it as of yet), and the chase that was witnessed prior to the first shooting was a consequence of Rittenhouse having put out a fire they'd just set.

But in any case after exercising his legal right to self-defense, he's now on the wrong side of an angry mob, which as you correctly point out, mostly believes he wasn't acting in self-defense. Which causes things to escalate, fatally.

This is one of those messy legal situation where both sides were mostly "in the right" with regards to the law. Rittenhouse was legally authorized to used deadly force, as from his point of view, he was in imminent danger of either serious bodily harm, or even death.

While many (but not all) members of the crowd were also legally authorized to try to detain him on suspicion of having just committed murder. (the ones who had reason to believe he had acted in self-defense would be in the situation of either being legally compelled to stay out of it and stand as a witness, or help protect Rittenhouse; if they attacked him, they were likely engaging in criminal conduct, as that would have been an unlawful detention at that point; kind of like the situation with Ahmaud Arbery only without the racial aspect, and the gun possession flipped)
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on September 01, 2020, 05:16:34 PM
Victim #2 has previously been covered,  but he also has a rap sheet, including battery and repeated instances of domestic abuse.

Victim #3(the only one to survive) also has a criminal record, by some reporting he is not legally allowed to posses a firearm, and now it seems he's not going to have much function in one of his arms going forward.
I'm just going to leave this up in case anybody wants to update it.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on September 01, 2020, 08:56:41 PM
Victim #2 has previously been covered,  but he also has a rap sheet, including battery and repeated instances of domestic abuse.

Victim #3(the only one to survive) also has a criminal record, by some reporting he is not legally allowed to posses a firearm, and now it seems he's not going to have much function in one of his arms going forward.
I'm just going to leave this up in case anybody wants to update it.

https://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/ny-kenosha-victims-identified-as-anthony-huber-joseph-rosenbaum-20200827-zvrsv7fpqfftlmjyrtjrmg5wwa-story.html

Quote
Online arrest records show Huber was arrested several times on battery, drugs and other charges. Rosenbaum had an open criminal case on battery, disorderly conduct and domestic abuse charges, according to the Wisconsin Circuit Court website. His previous record could not immediately be confirmed.
Huber being the skateboarder, so the second one shot. Rosenbaum was the first one to be shot.

Also Rosenbaum earlier in the same night he was shot:
https://twitter.com/Julio_Rosas11/status/1298474730966659072

17 second mark, about 35 second, and again around 55 seconds, at 1:05 he's challenging the militia to "shoot me nigga"

It does not seem that Rittenhouse was around for that encounter.

Doing some more digging on the 3rd Victim, I'm currently unable to support the claims I'd heard about him having a record. but:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8674391/Third-injured-Kenosha-shooting-victim-social-justice-activist.html
Quote
Gaige Grosskreutz, 26, from West Allis, 40 miles north of Kenosha, was left in a serious condition after being shot by 17-year-old Kyle Rittenhouse amid protests in the city on Tuesday night.

Compared to Rittenhouse who traveled less than 20 miles.. (Oh right, he crossed a state line, that changes everything)

https://www.theblaze.com/news/armed-leftist-kenosha-shooting-regrets

Quote
Grosskreutz is a member of a social justice group, the People's Revolution Movement of Milwaukee,

Such a nice friendly group name, and he was armed too.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on September 01, 2020, 10:24:22 PM
I see you haven't looked at all into Rittenhouse yet...
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on September 01, 2020, 11:44:09 PM
I see you haven't looked at all into Rittenhouse yet...

Oh, you mean the protester who has been at it for 90 days/nights and his attempted character assassination? I did find that one, but it doesn't match up with the video evidence, or anything else for that matter. It looks more like sloppy journalism, given the same reporter talked to "a business owner in Kenosha" who knew all three victims well(remember one of them was from Milwaukee, 40 miles away) and thought they were great people.

So basically that report is barely worth using as toilet paper. The journalist found someone who wanted to get their hits in on Rittenhouse, and didn't care to check further, they heard what they wanted too--Rittenhouse was a bad person, the victims were "good people." And they're covered for liability, as they're merely reporting what somebody told them.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDrake on September 02, 2020, 12:53:47 AM
We really don't know a lot about any of these people, or what they are like today. Nor does any of their background really matter, what matters were those 60 minutes. You could be a racist klan member and still be justified in self defense, and you can be a wife beating pedophile POS and still be an innocent victim.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on September 02, 2020, 07:08:26 AM
We really don't know a lot about any of these people, or what they are like today. Nor does any of their background really matter, what matters were those 60 minutes. You could be a racist klan member and still be justified in self defense, and you can be a wife beating pedophile POS and still be an innocent victim.

QFT

Just as in every case, the apologist machine goes into overdrive with the character assassination of victims who do not meet one's political criteria or objectives, where that background is completely irrelevant to the crimes committed against them, or to their actions during those crimes.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on September 02, 2020, 07:11:32 AM
I see you haven't looked at all into Rittenhouse yet...

Oh, you mean the protester who has been at it for 90 days/nights and his attempted character assassination? I did find that one, but it doesn't match up with the video evidence, or anything else for that matter.
I have no idea to whom you are referring.  But it sounds like you've put some effort into being cynical of his claims.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on September 02, 2020, 11:10:14 AM
We really don't know a lot about any of these people, or what they are like today. Nor does any of their background really matter, what matters were those 60 minutes. You could be a racist klan member and still be justified in self defense, and you can be a wife beating pedophile POS and still be an innocent victim.

Last I checked, chasing someone across a parking lot(Victim #1) does not qualify as self-defense. Now being chased across a parking lot(Rittenhouse) and opening fire in response to someone firing gunshots within 100 feet of you, and someone(Victim #1) grabbing for your gun when you do turn around to assess the situation...
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDrake on September 02, 2020, 11:20:22 AM
I'm not at all convinced right now with the timeline and actions taken. Apparently somebody other than Rittenhouse fired a weapon. Did he fire it AT him? Assuming he did, it is still grossly irresponsible to return fire without checking background, let alone foreground. I can't find any corroboration for your claim that somebody tried to throw a gasoline bomb at Rittenhouse. And none of it explains what he was doing out there, and whether or not he was deliberately provoking the mob - as opposed to the stated idea that he was "defending property".
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on September 02, 2020, 11:31:44 AM
I'm not at all convinced right now with the timeline and actions taken. Apparently somebody other than Rittenhouse fired a weapon. Did he fire it AT him? Assuming he did, it is still grossly irresponsible to return fire without checking background, let alone foreground. I can't find any corroboration for your claim that somebody tried to throw a gasoline bomb at Rittenhouse. And none of it explains what he was doing out there, and whether or not he was deliberately provoking the mob - as opposed to the stated idea that he was "defending property".

Dude, honestly. Look at the New York Times article. Unless you're saying the videos are deep fakes and the NYTimes was unable to detect it, that happened. The New York Times reported on it, and they're hardly sympathetic to Trump supporters. If they say it happened, and even provide the video evidence to support it, it happened that way. It even happens to be a continuous clip with regards to the first shooting.

Edit: the link, again since you clearly haven't bothered to follow it in the other threads.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/27/us/kyle-rittenhouse-kenosha-shooting-video.html

It should also be noted that they have some video footage of him being interviewed earlier that night.

The guy is a boyscout for all intents and purposes, regardless of if he literally is one or not. Maybe more than a bit overconfident in the ability of the gun to protect him, which did land him in trouble later than night, but  that doesn't make him someone that out looking to shoot people.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on September 02, 2020, 11:43:21 AM
Okay, they only had a still image of the first shooting.

https://static01.nyt.com/images/2020/08/26/video/26vid-kenosha-muzzle3/26vid-kenosha-muzzle3-superJumbo.jpg?quality=90&auto=webp

Here is the video they took the still image from:

https://twitter.com/trbrtc/status/1298841139810893824

okay, twitter for some reason won't let me direct link to that post.

They have two video in that thread which show the first shooting.

The one they took the still from is described as "The muzzle flash of the first shot by the unknown gunman and the smoke rising from the handgun can be seen in this video capturing the first shooting from a different angle."

The other video is described as "At 23:19, Rittenhouse is seen in this YouTube livestream. He's being chased into a parking lot. While he is being pursued, an unknown gunman fires the first shot into the air." and in that one, you can see victim #1 throw what looks to be a molotov cocktail at Rittenhouse, although subsequent reporting seems to indicate it wasn't one in reality. It still was a bottle with a flaming piece of cloth attached.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: rightleft22 on September 02, 2020, 11:52:45 AM
Quote
The guy is a boyscout for all intents and purposes, regardless of if he literally is one or not. Maybe more than a bit overconfident in the ability of the gun to protect him, which did land him in trouble later than night, but  that doesn't make him someone that out looking to shoot people.

A 17 year old boy had not business being being where he was, boy-scout or not. He was out after the curfew and has some responsibility of if not creating the conditions where he felt his life was at risk, part of the problem. 
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on September 02, 2020, 12:54:38 PM
The guy is a boyscout for all intents and purposes, regardless of if he literally is one or not.

And here is video of (reportedly) the boyscout jumping a girl from behind and wailing on her with his fists: Videos reportedly show Kyle Rittenhouse involved in fight, punching female last month in Kenosha (https://www.kenoshanews.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/watch-now-videos-reportedly-show-kyle-rittenhouse-involved-in-fight-punching-female-last-month-in/article_0befa437-e16d-54e6-b18a-0a70f3363f36.html).
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on September 02, 2020, 01:24:13 PM
The guy is a boyscout for all intents and purposes, regardless of if he literally is one or not.

And here is video of (reportedly) the boyscout jumping a girl from behind and wailing on her with his fists: Videos reportedly show Kyle Rittenhouse involved in fight, punching female last month in Kenosha (https://www.kenoshanews.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/watch-now-videos-reportedly-show-kyle-rittenhouse-involved-in-fight-punching-female-last-month-in/article_0befa437-e16d-54e6-b18a-0a70f3363f36.html).

Let's see, from that report, and reflected in the video:
Quote
Moments later, the argument escalates as the teen identified as Rittenhouse and another male begin exchanging words with the female in sweatpants. Seconds after that, the female in sweatpants starts scuffling with a third female.

Rittenhouse then appears to land several punches on the female in sweatpants as another male nearby tries unsuccessfully to hold Rittenhouse back.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say female #3 in that report is a friend of his, and when female #2 physically attacked #3, it was game on for him, in defense of #3.

Not a great character reference for Kyle if that is him in the video. But it isn't particularly damning either. He didn't escalate the fight into being physical, but once it did become physical he did intervene. The intervention leaves a lot to be desired, but it doesn't paint him as one to start trouble.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDrake on September 02, 2020, 01:25:09 PM
Okay, they only had a still image of the first shooting.

https://static01.nyt.com/images/2020/08/26/video/26vid-kenosha-muzzle3/26vid-kenosha-muzzle3-superJumbo.jpg?quality=90&auto=webp

Here is the video they took the still image from:

https://twitter.com/trbrtc/status/1298841139810893824

okay, twitter for some reason won't let me direct link to that post.

They have two video in that thread which show the first shooting.

The one they took the still from is described as "The muzzle flash of the first shot by the unknown gunman and the smoke rising from the handgun can be seen in this video capturing the first shooting from a different angle."

The other video is described as "At 23:19, Rittenhouse is seen in this YouTube livestream. He's being chased into a parking lot. While he is being pursued, an unknown gunman fires the first shot into the air." and in that one, you can see victim #1 throw what looks to be a molotov cocktail at Rittenhouse, although subsequent reporting seems to indicate it wasn't one in reality. It still was a bottle with a flaming piece of cloth attached.

Maybe you didn't read it all either. I did.

Quote
He eventually leaves the dealership and is barred by the police from returning.

At this point, he's not protecting anything. Did he walk toward the mob, get caught up in the mob, surrounded by the mob? I have no idea. The picture does show him near a dealership, possibly the same one. If police were barring him from returning, where are they? Why is he still in the area? I don't know. And we obviously don't know what, if any, interaction he had with the guy who lunged at him. Did he threaten him? Taunt him? We'll never know because he shot that guy in the head.

Quote
While Mr. Rittenhouse is being pursued by the group, an unknown gunman fires into the air, though it’s unclear why. The weapon’s muzzle flash appears in footage filmed at the scene.

So he was NOT being fired upon and had no reason to return fire by this account. I am giving Rittenhouse some benefit of the doubt that the Times report might be inaccurate.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on September 02, 2020, 01:39:07 PM
Maybe you didn't read it all either. I did.

Quote
He eventually leaves the dealership and is barred by the police from returning.

At this point, he's not protecting anything. Did he walk toward the mob, get caught up in the mob, surrounded by the mob? I have no idea. The picture does show him near a dealership, possibly the same one. If police were barring him from returning, where are they? Why is he still in the area? I don't know. And we obviously don't know what, if any, interaction he had with the guy who lunged at him. Did he threaten him? Taunt him? We'll never know because he shot that guy in the head.

According to someone claiming to be part of his defense team, Kyle was there to help a property owner protect two locations. So presumably he was blocked from returning after checking/running an errand to the other location.

Now supposition from there is that as with most people when being told no on something that they're not ready to give up, he probably didn't take no for an answer and sought a way around the police cordon, which likely set the stage for what followed

Quote
Quote
While Mr. Rittenhouse is being pursued by the group, an unknown gunman fires into the air, though it’s unclear why. The weapon’s muzzle flash appears in footage filmed at the scene.

So he was NOT being fired upon and had no reason to return fire by this account. I am giving Rittenhouse some benefit of the doubt that the Times report might be inaccurate.

Rittenhouse was running away at the time the shot was fired behind him. We know it was a shot in the air from the video. He didn't, which is why he turned, to see what just happened behind him. At which point victim #1 lunges for his gun, and Rittenhouse opens fire.

but going back to:

Quote
I don't know. And we obviously don't know what, if any, interaction he had with the guy who lunged at him. Did he threaten him? Taunt him? We'll never know because he shot that guy in the head.

Based on the other video circulating around involving victim #1 earlier that same night, it is far more likely that Rittenhouse was the one being threatened, taunted, and insulted. In either case, for the purpose of a self-defense case for Rittenhouse, it doesn't matter if he had been yelling "yo mamma" insults at victim #1 prior to the chase across the parking lot. All that matters is that Kyle felt he was in danger. Grabbing for his gun made lethal force legally permissible, shots fired immediately beforehand also further bolsters his defense case.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDrake on September 02, 2020, 02:33:09 PM
So when a guy with a knife is running away from the cops, they are perfectly justified in blasting away. But when citizens chase a guy with a rifle running away who just shot someone in the head, they are wrong to do so?

I haven't seen any report that he was at these properties at the request of the owner. Nor is there anything in the times article about anyone throwing an incendiary device, that I can see.

Legally, most anything Rittenhouse said would not make a difference. Unless he made a threat to start shooting people. Morally it makes a hell of a lot of difference, it is the difference between a mob setting upon him unprovoked and him pushing someone to their breaking point.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDrake on September 02, 2020, 03:20:53 PM
BTW, I tracked down your #molotov inaccuracy.

Quote
The belief that it was, or was not a Molotov cocktail was why on August 26, the hashtag #Molotov started trending on Twitter, along with an increase in the number of comments on posts and the sharing of images related to plastic bags. Some Twitter users who cross-referenced the videos discovered that in videos shot from other angles, the object the victim threw appeared to be a plastic bag. In addition to the item clearly not on fire and appearing to be bag-shaped from other angles, a plastic bag is visible on scene after the fact, in the same location the object landed. The victim was also filmed carrying a plastic bag with some items in it moments before the shooting took place, which appeared to be the same plastic bag at the scene of the shooting. In the time since, other outlets, including ABC News, have confirmed that the object in the video was indeed a plastic bag.

Attacked with a deadly shopping bag!
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: yossarian22c on September 02, 2020, 03:38:51 PM
BTW, I tracked down your #molotov inaccuracy.

Quote
The belief that it was, or was not a Molotov cocktail was why on August 26, the hashtag #Molotov started trending on Twitter, along with an increase in the number of comments on posts and the sharing of images related to plastic bags. Some Twitter users who cross-referenced the videos discovered that in videos shot from other angles, the object the victim threw appeared to be a plastic bag. In addition to the item clearly not on fire and appearing to be bag-shaped from other angles, a plastic bag is visible on scene after the fact, in the same location the object landed. The victim was also filmed carrying a plastic bag with some items in it moments before the shooting took place, which appeared to be the same plastic bag at the scene of the shooting. In the time since, other outlets, including ABC News, have confirmed that the object in the video was indeed a plastic bag.

Attacked with a deadly shopping bag!

Does it change your opinion if the bag was filled with rocks? Or bleach? What about a metal water bottle?

Don't throw crap at people, particularly not scared kids carrying a gun. I think this situation, particularly after the first shot in a fog of war type situation is one where the stand your ground type laws have basically legalized dueling. Whoever survives was acting in self-defense. So I think Rittenhouse either gets convicted of murdering the first guy or goes free.

But let me be clear. DO NOT send untrained armed 17 year olds out to "patrol the streets" or "protect property" or what ever they claim he was doing out there. Its dangerous for everyone involved and even if he doesn't end up spending a lot of time in prison this kid has to live with killing two people and being infamous. His life is ruined (to what degree the courts will determine) and two people are unnecessarily dead.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDrake on September 02, 2020, 03:52:24 PM
No doubt it was foolish and unwise for him to be there, and just as foolish and unwise for someone to throw things at people whether they are obviously armed or not. But what it wasn't was a molotov cocktail, which I think all would agree is far more threatening.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on September 02, 2020, 04:56:00 PM
I'm going to go out on a limb and say female #3 in that report is a friend of his, and when female #2 physically attacked #3, it was game on for him, in defense of #3.

Not a great character reference for Kyle if that is him in the video. But it isn't particularly damning either. He didn't escalate the fight into being physical, but once it did become physical he did intervene. The intervention leaves a lot to be desired, but it doesn't paint him as one to start trouble.
It sounds like you didn't watch the video at all, yet you are really bending over backwards to give Rittenhouse the benefit of the doubt.  Punching a girl from behind is defensible (not trying to restrain the girl, but wailing away) and shooting someone in the head was OK because - molotov cocktail.  Shooting the skateboarder who was trying to wrest the long gun away from Rittenhouse was OK because he feared for his life.  These are the benefits of the doubt not given to Blake, or the people that Rittenhouse shot.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDrake on September 02, 2020, 05:44:30 PM
To whom it may concern, the verb is "whale" not "wail". Wailing away would mean he was bawling his eyes out.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on September 02, 2020, 06:37:01 PM
So when a guy with a knife is running away from the cops, they are perfectly justified in blasting away. But when citizens chase a guy with a rifle running away who just shot someone in the head, they are wrong to do so?

"Citizen's arrest" is a very legally grey area. Most jurisdictions strongly advise people NOT to do so, report it to the police and let them do so. It is even more strongly encouraged when doing so may place the citizen in a dangerous situation.

Kyle had only shot one person at the time they tried to take him down when persons 2 and 3 were shot. He was not an "immediate threat" to anyone, until he demonstrated differently, engaging him was quite literally taking your own life into his hands. Remember: In wisconsin, and a number of other states, the only group where the right to self-defense does not apply is when it regards to Law Enforcement, and any military forces engaged in that role.

You have the right to defend yourself against a citizen's arrest in Wisconsin. So once again it does not matter what Kyle did previously, you don't confront such a person yourself. Leave it to law enforcement.

The "correct solution" which would have backing in law, would have been to tail him until he reached the police line and make sure the police knew he was "the shooter" so they could detain him. Which is ultimately what they tried to do after he shot two more people.

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I haven't seen any report that he was at these properties at the request of the owner. Nor is there anything in the times article about anyone throwing an incendiary device, that I can see.
Okay, they only had a still image of the first shooting.

https://static01.nyt.com/images/2020/08/26/video/26vid-kenosha-muzzle3/26vid-kenosha-muzzle3-superJumbo.jpg?quality=90&auto=webp

Here is the video they took the still image from:

https://twitter.com/trbrtc/status/1298841139810893824

okay, twitter for some reason won't let me direct link to that post.

They have two video in that thread which show the first shooting.

The one they took the still from is described as "The muzzle flash of the first shot by the unknown gunman and the smoke rising from the handgun can be seen in this video capturing the first shooting from a different angle."

The other video is described as "At 23:19, Rittenhouse is seen in this YouTube livestream. He's being chased into a parking lot. While he is being pursued, an unknown gunman fires the first shot into the air." and in that one, you can see victim #1 throw what looks to be a molotov cocktail at Rittenhouse, although subsequent reporting seems to indicate it wasn't one in reality. It still was a bottle with a flaming piece of cloth attached.

To help you out, timestamp for the windup of the throw is 0:07 on the video, it doesn't help that at that moment a bicyclists head obstructs part of the view, but you can see him "winding up" to throw just before the view is obstructed, you can even see something glowing to the right if the cyclist's head. At the 0:08 second point, I'm currently looking at a freeze-frame of a dark object with what looks to be a fire trail following behind it heading for Rittenhouse. Victim #1 is still behind the head of the cyclist at that moment.

Nice to know about the shopping bag, but based on what that video shows, something certainly was on fire, plastic bags don't glow like that. All the subsequent reporting demonstrates is whatever was burning had burned away to ash and hadn't burned the bag. (Or option 2: Someone tampered with the crime scene before law enforcement arrived. Attention would have been on either Kyle or the shooter, not the stuff that the victim has left scattered around the area.)
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDrake on September 02, 2020, 08:01:45 PM
I don't see any of what you're describing in that video. It doesn't help that YouTube doesn't exactly let you go frame by frame and adjust the contrast and deblur. Everything is backlit by bright floodlights. If only they had a Galaxy S20 we might have been able to see something. I've looked at the footage from other angles also, I'll try to find a link (most of that is blocked on this computer).
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on September 03, 2020, 11:33:52 AM
I'm going to go out on a limb and say female #3 in that report is a friend of his, and when female #2 physically attacked #3, it was game on for him, in defense of #3.

Not a great character reference for Kyle if that is him in the video. But it isn't particularly damning either. He didn't escalate the fight into being physical, but once it did become physical he did intervene. The intervention leaves a lot to be desired, but it doesn't paint him as one to start trouble.
It sounds like you didn't watch the video at all, yet you are really bending over backwards to give Rittenhouse the benefit of the doubt.  Punching a girl from behind is defensible (not trying to restrain the girl, but wailing away) and shooting someone in the head was OK because - molotov cocktail.  Shooting the skateboarder who was trying to wrest the long gun away from Rittenhouse was OK because he feared for his life.  These are the benefits of the doubt not given to Blake, or the people that Rittenhouse shot.

I watched the video, and what I saw matched up with what the reporter wrote, which you snipped in your quote back of my post wondering if I watched the video?
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Moments later, the argument escalates as the teen identified as Rittenhouse and another male begin exchanging words with the female in sweatpants. Seconds after that, the female in sweatpants starts scuffling with a third female.

Rittenhouse then appears to land several punches on the female in sweatpants as another male nearby tries unsuccessfully to hold Rittenhouse back.

So in the video (which is briefly obstructed by a passing car) you see the girl in sweatpants shove the third girl just before the car blocks the view. Once the car ceases to block the view, you see Kyle going after the girl in sweats. Kyle did not initiate the physical conflict, the girl in sweats did when she started a catfight with the third girl. Which is why I'd suspect Kyle was "white-knighting" for Girl #3 in that instance, as she'd just been physically attacked.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on September 03, 2020, 12:32:57 PM
It's academic which of the two girls started the physical altercation (nice sexist "catfight" reference, BTW) but regardless, Rittenhouse attacked the girl in plaid/sweats from behind, punching her freely while she had her back to him.  This we used to call a 'Pearl Harbour' and was considered cowardly and reprehensible. He didn't attempt to restrain plaid/sweats girl.  He didn't try to get between them.  He jumped her from behind and punched her repeatedly.

It's been a long time since I was in boy scouts; have things changed that drastically?  Funny how, if this had been a video of Huber or Grosskreutz, I suspect your position would differ.

And even though it matters not which of the girls started the fight, your very particular visual filters somehow missed the other girl walking away, then returning to the girl in plaid/sweatpants (who was standing her ground) before herself initiating the physical altercation with the plaid/sweats girl.

I didn't bring this up to prove that Rittenhouse is particularly violent, or that this reflects in any way on his actions on the night he killed two people, but rather for the predictable way you would respond to the video.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: rightleft22 on September 03, 2020, 01:26:47 PM
It takes a certain mental gymnastics of blaming the victim in order to justify our bias.

Rittenhouse had not businesses being out after curfew with a gun, arguably looking for trouble which his actions insured he would find. Anyone arguing Rittenhouse justifications for the homicide is missing the point or attempting to confuse the real issue behind why a 17 year old boy was engaged in the activity in the first place. 

Unless our "law and order' leaders call that out they are asking for such incidences to be repeated


Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on September 03, 2020, 08:48:26 PM
It takes a certain mental gymnastics of blaming the victim in order to justify our bias.

Rittenhouse had not businesses being out after curfew with a gun, arguably looking for trouble which his actions insured he would find. Anyone arguing Rittenhouse justifications for the homicide is missing the point or attempting to confuse the real issue behind why a 17 year old boy was engaged in the activity in the first place. 

Unless our "law and order' leaders call that out they are asking for such incidences to be repeated

The 8PM Curfew applied to everyone, not just people under 18. So by your logic of "he had no business being out after curfew" then "his victims had no business being out after curfew" as well.

Extinguishing an act or arson is not criminal. It may be provocative with respect to the arsonist(s)(which victim #1 may have been one of), but that just establishes the arsonist as a criminal, not the guy who put out the fire. It may place the guy with the fire extinguisher up for a Darwin Award, but not criminal.

Being chased nearly 3 blocks before turning around after a gunshot and opening fire on the guy grabbing for his gun also does not demonstrate criminal intent on the part of Rittenhouse. You call it "victim blaming" only because Rittenhouse isn't the one who was killed, in that encounter everything points to Rittenhouse being the real victim(albeit a stupid one, the police were literally less than a hundred feet away from where the chase presumably started).

Being stupid isn't a crime.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on September 03, 2020, 09:25:03 PM
Oh, and the video of the fire being put out. The service station in question is three blocks north of where the first shooting happened, and about a black and a half away from where the second and third shootings happened.

There is another Facebook livestream that showed someone that looked like Kyle carrying a fire extinguisher and running towards where the dumpster was, which would strongly suggest he was the one who put out the fire.

Also, for the really eagle eyed person, someone dressed like victim #1 appears to be one of the guys working around the dumpster.

https://twitter.com/livesmattershow/status/1299058504813035520

Edit: And twitter messing with direct links strikes again. Second video is the fire being put out. First video is the same service station earlier that night, with Rosenbaum egging on militia members to shoot him.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDrake on September 03, 2020, 10:23:19 PM
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black and a half

Freudian slip?
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on September 03, 2020, 10:42:01 PM
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black and a half

Freudian slip?

Well, I could comment on the Kyle Rittenhouse shootings involve a Hispanic being chased by white guys, with two dead and one injured before it was over; and the white guys were ostensibly protesting for better treatment of minorities.

But then we'll probably devolve into "white Hispanics being white, not Hispanic" much like what happened with George Zimmerman.

Although his day in court also saw him acquitted. Don't be surprised when this case goes nowhere. I'd be shocked if Kyle spends a day in Prison for this.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: rightleft22 on September 04, 2020, 09:23:59 AM
It takes a certain mental gymnastics of blaming the victim in order to justify our bias.

Rittenhouse had not businesses being out after curfew with a gun, arguably looking for trouble which his actions insured he would find. Anyone arguing Rittenhouse justifications for the homicide is missing the point or attempting to confuse the real issue behind why a 17 year old boy was engaged in the activity in the first place. 

Unless our "law and order' leaders call that out they are asking for such incidences to be repeated

The 8PM Curfew applied to everyone, not just people under 18. So by your logic of "he had no business being out after curfew" then "his victims had no business being out after curfew" as well.

Extinguishing an act or arson is not criminal. It may be provocative with respect to the arsonist(s)(which victim #1 may have been one of), but that just establishes the arsonist as a criminal, not the guy who put out the fire. It may place the guy with the fire extinguisher up for a Darwin Award, but not criminal.

Being chased nearly 3 blocks before turning around after a gunshot and opening fire on the guy grabbing for his gun also does not demonstrate criminal intent on the part of Rittenhouse. You call it "victim blaming" only because Rittenhouse isn't the one who was killed, in that encounter everything points to Rittenhouse being the real victim(albeit a stupid one, the police were literally less than a hundred feet away from where the chase presumably started).

Being stupid isn't a crime.

Of course the curfew applied to everyone. And it was interesting how the Chief of Police used that argument to blame the victims while saying nothing about the militia that were out to play.

The curfew is point that the police did once again show that they responded differently to situations depending on who you were. But that is a minor point with regards to Rittenhouse.

Rittenhouse as a armed 17 year old boy had no business being were he was or doing what he was doing period.  You can try to justify how he handled the situation he found himself but him getting into that situation is the problem. A Problem most definitely wasn't representing "Law and Order'.  By ignoring the issue of Rittenhouse being where he was and doing what he was as part of a militia what signal is being sent with regards to Law and Order your man says hes all about?  Just more hypocrisy.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on September 04, 2020, 12:34:01 PM
Rittenhouse as a armed 17 year old boy had no business being were he was or doing what he was doing period.  You can try to justify how he handled the situation he found himself but him getting into that situation is the problem. A Problem most definitely wasn't representing "Law and Order'.  By ignoring the issue of Rittenhouse being where he was and doing what he was as part of a militia what signal is being sent with regards to Law and Order your man says hes all about?  Just more hypocrisy.

We're going to have to agree to disagree on this as it seems partisan blinders are in full force on this issue.

Of course the bigger issue is that the proverbial gulf on this one is large enough that it has very ominous indicators for what might start happening all too soon.

Nobody in their right mind should want to see that happen, but righteous indignation at the concept of people acting to protect private property, which is the entire purpose of having laws, is somehow a criminal act has reached utterly insane levels.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on September 04, 2020, 12:59:29 PM
but righteous indignation at the concept of people acting to protect private property, which is the entire purpose of having laws, is somehow a criminal act has reached utterly insane levels.
"the entire purpose of having laws" - no more so than protecting lives, yet those people out there "protecting the lives" of black people by protesting are considered to be criminals, and those people having killed people "protecting" black lives while "protecting" private property are considered heroes.

As an aside, the destruction of private property is not yet a capital offence, even in the USA, and nobody has yet given self appointed Judge Dredds carte blanche to arrest, try, convict, sentence and execute those who destroy private property.

And why is that?  Because pretty soon, you'll have Judge Dredds on all sides walking around and executing the law as they see fit.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on September 04, 2020, 01:27:51 PM
but righteous indignation at the concept of people acting to protect private property, which is the entire purpose of having laws, is somehow a criminal act has reached utterly insane levels.
"the entire purpose of having laws" - no more so than protecting lives, yet those people out there "protecting the lives" of black people by protesting are considered to be criminals, and those people having killed people "protecting" black lives while "protecting" private property are considered heroes.

By protecting private property, you protect lives. Of course, living in  a post-industrial society, we don't appreciate scarcity in the same way as they did 200 years ago.. Or even 100 years ago for that matter. In the post-industrial setting "property is easy to replace"(insurance, government assistance) up to a point, so it is easier to prioritize lives over property.

But that doesn't change the reality that the post-industrial world still rests firmly on the foundations of the pre-industrial one. It still requires private property to be protected, and for that private property to be able to perform its purpose. Sure a business owner may still have "private property" even after that rioter burned their business to the ground, but in the interim while they go through insurance and government hurdles to try to rebuild, they are out of an income, and their employees are too. The people they served in the community are no longer able to receive that service from a location convenient to them. (And that the riots are mainly hitting impoverished neighborhoods within limited mobility makes it that much more perverse)

YOU may just see a building that can be replaced. But for the people who live there, that was their in job, that was the difference between a 5 minute walk and an hour+ transferring between various buses to get where they're going. It is damage to their community and neighborhood that may not heal in their lifetime, South-Central LA still had neighborhoods recovering from the Rodney King riots before BLM came rolling through.

I'll begrudge the property owners their right to protect their property, even if it means some thugs end up dead. If you either think burning down your own neighborhood, or worse, somebody else's neighborhood is going to improve the prospects of that neighborhood, you don't deserve to be part of society. And if you cannot be dissuaded by non-lethal means, then lethal is certainly on the table. You are messing with lives there, and not just the lives of the business owner, or the people there defending it.

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As an aside, the destruction of private property is not yet a capital offence, even in the USA, and nobody has yet given self appointed Judge Dredds carte blanche to arrest, try, convict, sentence and execute those who destroy private property.

They wouldn't have carte-blanche, they'd be subject to review for their actions. Nobody has made claims otherwise? So why are you asserting a position nobody is claiming? However, having their actions reviewed by LEO's and maybe even the courts, is not the same thing as being sent to prison for their acts. Which is what you're probably truly talking about.

News Flash: Self-Defense/Defense of Others enables crimes that would not otherwise see a capital punishment effectively become capital crimes at the moment the offense is taking place, and only in that moment.

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And why is that?  Because pretty soon, you'll have Judge Dredds on all sides walking around and executing the law as they see fit.

It doesn't work the way you think it does.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on September 04, 2020, 01:49:49 PM
It doesn't work the way you think it does.
Of course not - no country has ever devolved into civil war... If you think only one side of any conflict is going to bear and use arms (in a country where there are more firearms than people, and a perception that using firearms is somehow righteous) and the other is going to perpetually avoid doing so, even when those arms start getting used... it doesn't work the way you think it does.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on September 04, 2020, 02:10:52 PM
Based on what the media is doing, we're on the express train to some kind of Civil War once the November election results come out.

It'll hopefully remain political until the Election Results are being tabulated, but the narratives on both sides are already being rolled out so they can reject the results.

The current game being played is to see who can make the best claim (in November) on controlling the levers of Federal Power, but it's largely a shell game anyway. The "longer fuse" likely exists on the right in general, but other "on the right" are probably on a MUCH shorter one, and there will be a real risk that if the Dems win, the response to those short fused clowns is going to trigger a response from the rest.

Meanwhile, if a Trump win is announced, November and December are likely to be very long months to get through. Its going to get bad, quick, and its going to likely make what's been seen to date seem tame by comparison.

If you watch FOX almost all you hear about is left-wing violence and anarchy, never anything these days about C19, never anything about legitimate social grievances.  They are stoking fears of left-wing revolt and may indeed be hoping that they can provoke a backlash of violence and counter-revolt by what you call short- and long-fuse right-wing viewers.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2020/09/03/trump-stay-in-office/
^^^ Not a right wing media outlet
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We wanted to know: What’s the worst thing that could happen to our country during the presidential election? President Trump has broken countless norms and ignored countless laws during his time in office, and while my colleagues and I at the Transition Integrity Project didn’t want to lie awake at night contemplating the ways the American experiment could fail, we realized that identifying the most serious risks to our democracy might be the best way to avert a November disaster. So we built a series of war games, sought out some of the most accomplished (Never-Trump) Republicans, Democrats, civil servants, media experts, pollsters and strategists around, and asked them to imagine what they’d do in a range of election and transition scenarios.

A landslide for Joe Biden resulted in a relatively orderly transfer of power. Every other scenario we looked at involved street-level violence and political crisis.

This is basically a recycling of a report they did on the same wargame and reported(elsewhere) back in July.

Weird how it seems the only peaceful transition scenario they came up with is the one where Biden wins...

Somebody's statement didn't age well.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on September 04, 2020, 03:12:05 PM
Also in other news, the Lacey, Washington resident who shot and killed a Trump supporter "in self defense" in Portland, Oregon was killed after initiating a gunfight with Police who had arrived to serve an arrest warrant against him.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: cherrypoptart on September 04, 2020, 11:49:16 PM
Police have been killing black people for a long time. They were doing it during the Obama administration too. Mostly criminals of course, but sometimes mistakes are made. The point is this has been happening for a long time. While Obama was in office we didn't have all of these protests. We also didn't have #metoo. So what changed? What finally set these people off and made them blow up with rage? The same thing in both cases. Trump. The underlying issues and problems have been there all along but it wasn't a big deal, well it wasn't as big of a deal as it is now anyway, for only one reason. Trump wasn't in office.

In other words, this is all political and specifically politically targeted against Trump. The grievances are real but the current level of outrage is contrived.

If Hillary had won and especially if the Democrats controlled Congress and we had the same video of Floyd and the exact same other police incidents, all of these protests, the burning, the looting, the violence, wouldn't be happening.

Of course the police should be careful and professional. But understanding this is all an anti-Trump putsch makes taking these people seriously extremely challenging. Just looked up putsch to make sure I got it right: a violent attempt to overthrow a government. Close enough.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on September 05, 2020, 12:09:11 AM
Of course the police should be careful and professional. But understanding this is all an anti-Trump putsch makes taking these people seriously extremely challenging. Just looked up putsch to make sure I got it right: a violent attempt to overthrow a government. Close enough.

Thing is, for a lot of these protesters, it probably is not an anti-Trump push, it's anti-United States, but we'll only see that put to the test should Biden win the election, and they continue to riot and burn. Of course, at that point the press probably won't be providing cover for them at least a year or so... So we'll see.

Most likely the narrative would be the post election rioters would be billed as "enraged Trump supporters" who just so happen to be rioting in predominately left-leaning cities, and where the people who keep getting arrested seem to have arrest record histories tied to protests in the area going back months...
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: cherrypoptart on September 05, 2020, 12:17:33 AM
Absolutely the press is providing fuel and oxygen for the fire. During the Obama years they covered the stories with a gentle touch and give them just passing air time if they cover them at all. When there were negative stories of just about any kind they would make sure to keep Obama's name out of it at all costs whereas they do just the opposite now and work Trump's name into anything and everything that on which they can put any kind of negative spin. Under Biden the press will go back to the same kid glove and sweep it under the rug rules they had under Obama. There is really no way to exaggerate how despicably partisan the mainstream media has become, or perhaps always was but how they don't try to hide it anymore.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: LetterRip on September 06, 2020, 04:53:06 PM
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Absolutely the press is providing fuel and oxygen for the fire. During the Obama years they covered the stories with a gentle touch and give them just passing air time if they cover them at all.

No, they didn't give the police killings a 'light touch' under the Obama administration.  What happened that Obama made statements and actions that were clearly against immoral and unlawful killings by the police.  That he was concerned about the issue and taking action.

https://www.cnn.com/2016/07/07/politics/philando-castile-alton-sterling-josh-earnest/index.html

  Also smart phone penetration with usable video storage has drastically increased.  It went from 35% in 2011 (with most of those smart phones having poor cameras with limited storage), to 81% in middle of 2019 (and obviously well over 81% for 2020) (with pretty much even the cheapest smart phone having a good camera with reasonable storage - my 2 year old 25$ (+tax) smartphone had 16GB storage built in and shoots 1280x720 video), basically in 2020 only the extremely elderly and those too young to have a phone don't have a smartphone capable of video in the US.

Since these killings mostly take place in poorer neighborhoods, and smartphone penetration is among the wealthy first, the odds of these incidents being caught on camera has probably drastically increased since Obama.

When you have a President that makes excuses for racists and retweets, videos and other materials from white supremacists,  obviously it is a much more contentious issue. 

A President who invites people who waved guns at peaceful protesters who are protesting these killings

https://www.npr.org/sections/live-updates-protests-for-racial-justice/2020/08/18/903478960/st-louis-couple-who-brandished-guns-at-black-protesters-to-speak-at-rnc

 to be speakers at his convention.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: cherrypoptart on September 06, 2020, 06:08:21 PM
So it seems like we basically agree then. There is one main difference between then and now. Trump.

The difference between it being a reaction to Trump himself and a reaction to Trump's response to these incidents compared to Obama's response is really no difference at all. These are anti-Trump protests.

Although I doubt there would be any difference if Trump did have the same responses as Obama, both in terms of his lip service or his band-aid so called police reforms. There would be no difference at all. Trump would still be the same racist and the protests would be exactly the same too. Just like #metoo. At their roots these are all just political, contrived, and transparent. Sorry to be so jaded but the antics of the Democrats and the media leave the observant skeptic little choice.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: LetterRip on September 06, 2020, 10:51:16 PM
So it seems like we basically agree then. There is one main difference between then and now. Trump.

No, you think it is 'because Trump'.  I said it is 'because of Trump's actions and inactions.  As well as more video means more atrocious police actions get recorded - with probably 3x as many video cameras, you'd expect a similar increase in recording and news reporting of police brutality.

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The difference between it being a reaction to Trump himself and a reaction to Trump's response to these incidents compared to Obama's response is really no difference at all. These are anti-Trump protests.

It is a major difference.  If Trump had a reasonable response to the police actions, there wouldn't have been much of a protest.  It is his complete inaction, indeed the complete opposite of inaction - he has actively antagonized the protesters in a number of ways and engaged in behaviours that can readily be interpreted as supporting of racists.

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Although I doubt there would be any difference if Trump did have the same responses as Obama, both in terms of his lip service or his band-aid so called police reforms.

There was real action and real reform done by Obama, that was reversed by Trump,

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In addition to curtailing pattern-or-practice investigations, the Justice Department in the Trump administration ended another program that helped scrutinize shortcomings in police departments. That program allowed the department’s Office of Community Oriented Policing Services, or COPS, to assess departments and work with them voluntarily on reform.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/the-trump-administration-abandoned-obama-era-police-reform-efforts-now-critics-want-them-restored/2020/06/01/4615bc1c-a413-11ea-b473-04905b1af82b_story.html


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There would be no difference at all. Trump would still be the same racist and the protests would be exactly the same too.

Trump actively reversed Obama implemented reforms.

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Just like #metoo. At their roots these are all just political, contrived, and transparent. Sorry to be so jaded but the antics of the Democrats and the media leave the observant skeptic little choice.

A prominent Democratic Senator was forced to resign due to metoo, even though the 'evidence' was clearly him doing a comedy bit.

You seem to ignore all evidence even though it is overwhelmingly against your beliefs.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: wmLambert on September 07, 2020, 12:06:11 PM
...If Trump had a reasonable response to the police actions, there wouldn't have been much of a protest.  It is his complete inaction, indeed the complete opposite of inaction - he has actively antagonized the protesters in a number of ways and engaged in behaviours that can readily be interpreted as supporting of racists.

You do realize that is 180° out of whack? Trump immediately jumped in on the side of law and order. One does not take sides based on knee-jerk reaction to fake news. Those who do usually double-down and make it worse. He immediately came out stating that the knee on the throat was wrong, even though the medical community eventually labeled the death as not being asphyxiation, but a reaction to drugs in Floyd's system. The big point is not George Floyd, but any publicized event in time for the Democrats' plans before an election. Yes, the prevalence of iPhone cameras make such incidents easy to exploit, but this catalyst was just one of many that never reached an incendiary level until this point in time.

Even with all the unfair attacks against Trump "siding" with White Supremacists, which definitely he did not do, he supported law and order to the max.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: wmLambert on September 07, 2020, 12:32:43 PM
...Trump actively reversed Obama implemented reforms.

Yes, he did, to the betterment of the nation and to law and order. There may have been a spotted owl somewhere who didn't find a Kmart sign to nest in, but otherwise, his correction of Obama overreach was impressive and measurably on the side of goodness and light. Trumps' reforms in the criminal justice genré has resulted in improved metrics you cannot refute. This is the single reason the Democrats have targeted law and order to take success away from the President.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: yossarian22c on September 09, 2020, 07:59:21 AM
https://www.npr.org/2020/09/09/910975499/autistic-13-year-old-boy-shot-by-salt-lake-city-police (https://www.npr.org/2020/09/09/910975499/autistic-13-year-old-boy-shot-by-salt-lake-city-police)

Quote
A police officer in Salt Lake City, Utah shot a 13-year-old boy with Asperger syndrome on Friday after his mother called 911 seeking help for her son, who was experiencing a mental health crisis.
...

Barton reportedly told officers that her son was unarmed, describing him as "a kid ... trying to get attention, he doesn't know how to regulate."

She said she was told to stay put when officers arrived at her house. Within minutes, Barton said, she heard voices yelling, "Get down on the ground," followed by several gunshots.

Another crap fest by the cops.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDrake on September 09, 2020, 09:49:09 AM
https://www.npr.org/2020/09/09/910975499/autistic-13-year-old-boy-shot-by-salt-lake-city-police (https://www.npr.org/2020/09/09/910975499/autistic-13-year-old-boy-shot-by-salt-lake-city-police)

Quote
A police officer in Salt Lake City, Utah shot a 13-year-old boy with Asperger syndrome on Friday after his mother called 911 seeking help for her son, who was experiencing a mental health crisis.
...

Barton reportedly told officers that her son was unarmed, describing him as "a kid ... trying to get attention, he doesn't know how to regulate."

She said she was told to stay put when officers arrived at her house. Within minutes, Barton said, she heard voices yelling, "Get down on the ground," followed by several gunshots.

Another crap fest by the cops.

That austistic kid had it comin I tell ya. What do you expect when you're 13 years old and unarmed but won't obey commands? He might have tried to bite one of the officers! Again I will point out how unarmed people who are not cops could have responded to this, including someone who works in a home for troubled youth, a prison guard, a nurse....

I might puke if I hear anybody tell us how we've got to "wait to learn more" and "perhaps the officers were justified."
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on September 09, 2020, 10:15:38 AM
What I don't understand is that, in the current climate, with so much focus on police shootings and violence, what police officer wouldn't go out of their way (even to the point of allowing themselves to be injured by an unarmed 13-year-old) to avoid shooting said autistic child / adolescent?

I honestly question what was going through their mind...
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: Fenring on September 09, 2020, 10:42:45 AM
I honestly question what was going through their mind...

Probably the same thing going through the mind of a mafia hitman during the era of the FBI: don't worry, your butt is covered and you'll be taken care of.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on September 09, 2020, 10:55:29 AM
I honestly question what was going through their mind...

Probably the same thing going through the mind of a mafia hitman during the era of the FBI: don't worry, your butt is covered and you'll be taken care of.
You jest (I think) but clearly, when pointing one's gun at a young person who is behaving in... concerning ways... I doubt one is thinking about the union and/or the thin blue line.

Also, whether one used to believe that they were protected even a couple of years ago, any cop who doesn't realize that their world has changed, that there is always a video, that the internet is rife with people who hate cops specifically, but also who hate people on general principles, that mayors are much more ready to throw specific cops under the bus... well, they probably need to reevaluate their basic premises.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: Fenring on September 09, 2020, 11:24:07 AM
You jest (I think) but clearly, when pointing one's gun at a young person who is behaving in... concerning ways... I doubt one is thinking about the union and/or the thin blue line.

Actually I was being completely serious. If you don't think the "I can hide behind others" mentality exists even more so in a crisis than any other time then I think you need to reconsider how a mob works. Angry mobs consist of essentially average people, most of whom are probably cowardly, whose 'courage' consists of psychologically hiding behind the others in the crowd both morally and physically. The mob does not consist of brave warriors who would march into single combat for justice, but rather people who would flee if they realized the pack wasn't covering them in every way. That's why people in a mob mentality can do things they would "never" do, because they believe it won't be seen as them doing it but the crowd. In the case of police officers it is likely a variant of this, in wolf pack form, where only as part of a pack do they feel confident to take on even a weaker opponent. That feeling of "no one can take us on, we are strong, you mess with me you mess with all of us" is never absent from their minds, which is also likely why cops feel so emboldened to do things that you would think almost no one other than psychotic maniacs would do. It's because they think it 'doesn't count' in some way. or that the pack is stronger than the opposition.

Quote
Also, whether one used to believe that they were protected even a couple of years ago, any cop who doesn't realize that their world has changed, that there is always a video, that the internet is rife with people who hate cops specifically, but also who hate people on general principles, that mayors are much more ready to throw specific cops under the bus... well, they probably need to reevaluate their basic premises.

You can include with the above that people are stupid, and entrenched bureaucracies won't change unless absolutely forced to. You can tell them enough is enough, and they can even see it happen to someone else, but then they'll think "oh this will blow over", or "our DA will do better for us than that other one where cops were indicted." I mean, I agree, you would think that at some point all governors and DA's would utterly clamp down on this. But I guess this illustrates that it hasn't happened yet. The evidence speaks for itself, no one actually cares unless the public goes apesh**.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: rightleft22 on September 09, 2020, 11:45:54 AM
I watched the Circus interview of the Kenosha police chief and I think the Sheriff.
Its was a reasoned discussion on the current moral, the difficulties of the job....
When asked about Jacob the chief admitted that when viewing the video it looks like a failure of good policing and so he understand the reaction. And then he moves to the general explaining that usually when all the information comes to like its found their were good reasons for things having unfolded the way they did which exonerates/excuses the police.   (No thoughts on evaluating if there was a failure in policies or procedures or anything.

Everything the officers said was reasonable but on second look they were refusing to take responsibility for bad policing or even considering that just maybe their could be better ways to do their job.
Working in a Job were every failure is examined to improve procedures I just don't get it.

IMO the interview was a good example as to why the problems are systemic. Built into the system which only a calm rethinking of the role of police has a chance of changing. 

As a society we have asked the police to do to much. Because were to cheep to take care of those with mental health issues we are left with only the police to call. The average cop that sees ever problem as a nail and themselves as a hammer isn't going handle such situation well. Its time to step back and calmly seek out ways that we, society and police might do things better.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on September 09, 2020, 11:53:49 AM
What I don't understand is that, in the current climate, with so much focus on police shootings and violence, what police officer wouldn't go out of their way (even to the point of allowing themselves to be injured by an unarmed 13-year-old) to avoid shooting said autistic child / adolescent?

I honestly question what was going through their mind...

Something tells me that information was communicated to dispatch by the mother, but that information was either not communicated to the police who responded to the scene, or the officer who opened fire ignored the advisory(if it ever came). In either case, not excusable in any way.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: rightleft22 on September 09, 2020, 12:36:43 PM
The mother's only option in such a situation should not have been a call to police. Its not just the police who failed here but society. 
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDrake on September 09, 2020, 01:39:22 PM
Quote
At a press conference, Sgt Horrocks said officers were called to a "violent psych issue" and reports that a boy - who they did not name - had made "threats to some folks with a weapon". He added that there was no indication when they attended that the boy was armed.

An officer shot the boy when he tried to flee on foot, Sgt Horrocks said.

We're taking you to the hospital, even if we have to shoot you while you run away from us.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: Fenring on September 09, 2020, 01:58:38 PM
We're taking you to the hospital, even if we have to shoot you while you run away from us.

I expect it's more of "we will use any and all force if you do not comply with our orders." The issue of officers acting as if anything they command you to do is legally binding (and upon pain of death) is possibly the worst aspect of the policing problems right now. Because even in non-lethal encounters if you don't comply with a command they will count is as "escalating" even if they have no lawful right to issue that command.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDrake on September 11, 2020, 05:43:09 PM
Quote
Houston Texans' defensive end JJ Watt was left confused by boos from fans during a pre-game 'moment of unity' as protests against racism took place on the opening night of the NFL season.

Pockets of the crowd at the Kansas City Chiefs' stadium booed as players linked arms shortly before the game started.

So can we now stop with the pretense that objections are really about dishonoring veterans, and recognize it for what it is? An inability to cope with the fact that racism exists and we should be against it.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on September 11, 2020, 06:47:43 PM
Quote
Houston Texans' defensive end JJ Watt was left confused by boos from fans during a pre-game 'moment of unity' as protests against racism took place on the opening night of the NFL season.

Pockets of the crowd at the Kansas City Chiefs' stadium booed as players linked arms shortly before the game started.

So can we now stop with the pretense that objections are really about dishonoring veterans, and recognize it for what it is? An inability to cope with the fact that racism exists and we should be against it.

It is not the what that is in dispute for me, or most others. Of course Racism exists, it probably always will on some level.

What we're taking exception to is the how they're going about trying to address the issue. Most of what they're doing, with allegedly good intentions, isn't helping ameliorate the problem they profess to be concerned with, arguably they're making things worse for many people. But hey, when the Left Wing idiots are taking White Fragility as one of their new holy books, where the author is a self-described racist, hey. Who am I to tell them they might be on the wrong track. Keep following those suggestions from the racist.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on September 11, 2020, 10:16:23 PM
Could there be anything more inoffensive than linking arms?  Admit it - there is simply no action that those people could take that would be a "correct" action.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: wmLambert on September 12, 2020, 02:09:03 PM
Could there be anything more inoffensive than linking arms?  Admit it - there is simply no action that those people could take that would be a "correct" action.

Yes, if football players, for instance, just went about entertaining and playing the game - and not acting like philosophers, it would be greatly appreciated.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDrake on September 12, 2020, 02:21:36 PM
Shut up and entertain us! You probably would have been foaming at the mouth in 68, so you'll have to go further back to find favor for that sentiment.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on September 12, 2020, 03:25:45 PM
Could there be anything more inoffensive than linking arms?  Admit it - there is simply no action that those people could take that would be a "correct" action.

The Dance-Off competition outside the ICE facility in Portland a couple nights ago was fine by me, they evidently didn't set any fires, or destroy anything. They're welcome to do that all they wish.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: cherrypoptart on September 13, 2020, 10:31:53 AM

"LA County Sheriffs
@LASDHQ
Replying to @LASDHQ
To the protesters blocking the entrance & exit of the HOSPITAL EMERGENCY ROOM yelling "We hope they die" referring to 2 LA Sheriff's ambushed today in #Compton: DO NOT BLOCK EMERGENCY ENTRIES & EXITS TO THE HOSPITAL. People's lives are at stake when ambulances can't get through."
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: wmLambert on September 13, 2020, 02:12:58 PM
Shut up and entertain us! You probably would have been foaming at the mouth in 68, so you'll have to go further back to find favor for that sentiment.

Too bad your supposed intellect fails you so often. During the Detroit riots in "68, I had to lock our carhops in the freezer at the A&W restaurant where I worked, when the entire Outlaws motorcycle gang pulled in as the official curfew was to start because of the riots. There was much unrest, and the protests were totally out of control. We were lucky that day, because the leader of the gang walked up to the window, and took off his helmet. He was the place kicker for our High School  football team.

In '66, I earned my Regents Grant to the University of Michigan for leading a student protest against the first Teacher's Strike in the nation. My coaches honored the strike, but the team we were scheduled to play for our first game, had coaches that were working out with their team. As captain, I got my picture on the front page of the Royal Oak Tribune, with a local sheriff threatening to fill my backside full of buckshot, but the school board sent out an official to open the locker room and our equipment so we could practice. The UM Regents gave grants to leaders to create a student leadership group of positive leaders because of those riots. My pre-induction group consisted of high school leaders who had double credentials, both Class President or President of the student body and Captain of a team. there were close to a hundred of us, and we watched the political culture in the whole nation tank.

No. I understand what is right and what is wrong.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDrake on September 13, 2020, 06:24:18 PM
We were talking about non violent sports protests. I didn't think I had to spell out that I was referring to the famous raising of fists on the Olympic podium. But at least you've confirmed that you thought that the Civil rights movement was wrong. I'm sorry that you're pining for the 50s.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: wmLambert on September 13, 2020, 08:39:49 PM
We were talking about non violent sports protests. I didn't think I had to spell out that I was referring to the famous raising of fists on the Olympic podium. But at least you've confirmed that you thought that the Civil rights movement was wrong. I'm sorry that you're pining for the 50s.

Now you are being a troll. You cannot deny that the American experience has been betterment of civil rights. Since the time of George Wallace, even the Democrats understood they had to act like non-bigots to keep any voters at all. They disavowed the KKK, even though they kept Klansmen in their ranks as respected mentors. They claimed all their racists and bigots moved to the GOP, even though no one changed parties at that time.

The people were welcoming civil rights, and the long-held civil rights bills the GOP had promoted since the Civil War were blocked by the Democrats for the last time during Eisenhower's administration. When LBJ came around with a quibble with his own party, he sided with the Everitt Dirksen GOP to pass the Civil Rights bills - more to stick a thumb in the eye of his party members than for civil rights. We have been righting the ship for years - and every so often the Democrats try to ratchet up some complaints to bolster their self-proclaimed civil rights activism. But like the Dems' Black Caucus that blocked making the Civil Rights bills permanent so they had an issue to run every election cycle, doing what was right was just a pretense for staying in power.

Why would any party follow divisive leaders like Farrakhan and Sharpton? BLM leaders Alicia Garza, Patrisse Cullors and Opal Tometi are avowed Marxists, but have blinders on when asked about Maduro in Venezuela. They coined the name BLM on the day George Zimmerman was acquitted of murdering Trayvon Martin. You remember, Martin who tried to beat Zimmerman to death? When I led a demonstration, it was about real injustice which had a ready solution, and the school board just needed a little hint for how to solve the inequity. Once done, there was no need to maintain political power. All the fists in the air are representative of the Walter Cronkite lie about the Tet Offensive that made activists realize they just needed to aim their battles at media coverage.

There used to be no Blacks allowed in sports at all, now there are. Yet the multi-millionaire minorities raise fists to say they are still victims. This is only about us vs, them - not about unity and togetherness. Idiot-morons raise fists and create divisiveness more than embrace unity. BLM is run by avowed Communists, and embrace rioting and looting. The Democrats see that as in their political favor, so embolden the bad actors.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on October 12, 2020, 01:43:46 PM
So last night in Portland, protesters tore down statues of Lincoln and Theodore Roosevelt in an "Indigenous Peoples' Day of Rage" protest.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on October 25, 2020, 08:58:00 AM
Filed under "Dog Bites Man": Centre For Strategic and International Studies: Far-Right Groups Are Behind Most U.S. Terrorist Attacks, 2020 Report Finds (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/24/us/domestic-terrorist-groups.html)

I know this is inconvenient for the narrative being pushed in support of a particular political group, but to quote one of the great thinkers of our time: "It is what it is."

And here is the source study. (https://www.csis.org/analysis/war-comes-home-evolution-domestic-terrorism-united-states)

Quote
Based on the data, this analysis has several findings, which are discussed at greater length later in this assessment. First, white supremacists and other like-minded extremists conducted 67 percent of terrorist plots and attacks in the United States in 2020.

...

Despite these findings, this violence needs to be understood in historical context. The number of fatalities from terrorist attacks in the U.S. homeland is still relatively small compared to some periods in U.S. history, making it important not to overstate the threat.7 Roughly half of the years since 1994 had a greater number of fatalities from terrorism than 2020—at least between January 1 and August 31, 2020.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on October 25, 2020, 01:14:54 PM
I'm not even going to bother to read it at this point. Only thing I'm going to ask is:

How did they define "terrorist attack" in this case?
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on October 25, 2020, 01:49:09 PM
It's in the summary of the study.  Click on the link if you are interested.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on October 25, 2020, 04:40:32 PM
It's in the summary of the study.  Click on the link if you are interested.

Quote
This report focuses on terrorism—not other issues, such
as hate crimes, protests, riots, or broader civil unrest.
Terrorism is the deliberate use—or threat—of violence by
non-state actors
in order to achieve political goals and create
a broad psychological impact.

And they're claiming White Supremacists were doing more of that this past year than the left? To the degree they're crediting the White Supremacists with 80% and the left with only 20%? On what planet are they living on?

BLM is the one rioting in the streets, not the Neo-Nazis. BLM is the one yelling at people about how they're going to burn their house down(and even doing so, or making the attempt, in some cases).

I'd agree the white-supremacists are probably the more persistent and lethal threat, but they're not the ones doing things this year by and large.

Oh right, because BLM is burning things down as part of a riot it doesn't count. Gotcha.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on October 25, 2020, 06:03:56 PM
That's the problem with getting your statistics by looking at exciting video on the "6 o'clock news", as opposed to actually looking at and counting up all incidents of violence, even if they weren't being amplified by one's favourite media (or president).  I'm sure that incidents of media reports of terrorist violence do NOT match the 67%/20% ratio.

As for this:

they're crediting the White Supremacists with 80% and the left with only 20%? On what planet are they living on?

You misread: the numbers in the study are actually 67 percent for far-right terrorists (not 80%) and 20 percent for far-left terrorists.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: wmLambert on October 25, 2020, 11:28:00 PM
I look at historical data with a jaundiced eye since so many "authorities" had to be slapped alongside their heads to admit Hitler was a Leftist - not a Conservative. They put the Nazis on the Right side of every equation - even though that was diametrically opposed to reality. It may be worse now, as AntiFa is supposed to be against Fascism, when they are activist themselves and more Fascist than anyone they protest against.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on November 01, 2020, 06:29:40 PM
Trump supporters shut down the Tappan Zee bridge and the New Jersey Parkway.

Democrats march in a get-out-vote demonstration/parade in Graham, North Carolina.

One group gets pepper sprayed.  The others do not.  Which is which?
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: DonaldD on November 11, 2020, 08:41:45 PM
And in news surprising exactly nobody: Proud Boys fed up with pretending they're not racist. (https://www.rawstory.com/2020/11/civil-war-brewing-inside-proud-boys-as-top-leader-says-hes-done-pretending-he-isnt-a-nazi/)

Quote
The far-right Proud Boys gang has long denied that it is a white nationalist organization and has instead claimed that it only exists to defend “Western Civilization.”

However, Newsweek reports that some members of the group are ready to openly embrace being a racist organization and are dropping any pretenses of wanting support of non-white people.

The civil war within the Proud Boys started when Kyle Chapman, the founder of the Proud Boys’ so-called “tactical defense arm,” sent out a message to supporters that he no longer wanted to pretend that he wasn’t a white nationalist.

“Due to the recent failure of Proud Boy Chairman Enrique Tarrio to conduct himself with honor and courage on the battlefield, it has been decided that I Kyle Chapman reassume my post as President of Proud Boys effective immediately,” Chapman wrote. “We will no longer cuck to the left by appointing token negroes as our leaders. We will no longer allow homosexuals or other ‘undesirables’ into our ranks. We will confront the Zionist criminals who wish to destroy our civilization.”

He also made clear that he believed talk of defending “Western Civilization” was really just a racist dog whistle all along.

“We recognize that the West was built by the White Race alone and we owe nothing to any other race,” he wrote.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: Aris Katsaris on November 11, 2020, 09:10:08 PM
Relevant earlier discussion: http://www.ornery.org/forum/index.php/topic,786.msg46861.html#msg46861
comment by cherry:
Quote
"Enrique Tarrio insists that the Proud Boys aren’t White supremacists, and he would be in a position to know. For one, he’s the international chairman. For another, he’s Black."

Anyone not for open borders is a racist. In fact, they are a white supremacist. What if they are black, Latino, or both? Doesn't matter. Still a white supremacist. Like the Jews who worked with Hitler who were still Nazis I guess. Maybe Enrique Tarrio was made an honorary white or something.

That seems to be the tact the left is taking.

I agreed with him that perhaps the Proud Boys are not white supremacist, *just* neo-fascist -- but thankfully just a few comments later, noel (unintentionally) helped convince me of the opposite:
http://www.ornery.org/forum/index.php/topic,786.msg46865.html#msg46865
Quote
I think you just helped convince me of the reverse - no, you should listen more to Europeans fearing fascism in America, because of our experience with fascism, and I should similarly trust more the opinion of Americans, about the Proud Boys being white supremacists, since after all it's Americans who have the experience of white supremacist groups.

--

So, thank you noel. It turned out indeed that a token black chairman doesn't preclude an organization from being white supremacist, and I should have listened from the start to the progressives in the United States that identified them as such.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDeamon on November 11, 2020, 09:33:44 PM
So, thank you noel. It turned out indeed that a token black chairman doesn't preclude an organization from being white supremacist, and I should have listened from the start to the progressives in the United States that identified them as such.

It's a bit more than "token black guy" by Enrique Tarrio claims, over 40% of their membership is comprised of racial minorities.

And I wouldn't be surprised if Newsweek just got trolled, given that the ProudBoys started as a joke in the first place.
Title: Re: I love my country, but we're going through a rough patch
Post by: TheDrake on November 11, 2020, 09:45:00 PM
Here's a more objective tally, but yes not insignificant. Wonder if that's gonna change.

Quote
Mr. Reilly, author of “Hate Crime Hoax,” said his research shows law enforcement officials estimate that 10% to 20% of Proud Boys members are racial minorities.

Same Washington Times article as cherry quoted.