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Messages - rightleft22

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1
General Comments / Re: Pre-planned Second Impeachment
« on: January 15, 2021, 05:18:40 PM »
I see. These were not Trump followers at the Trump rally that latter marched but  all 'actors'.
The proof is that Trump followers are not capable of planning action's as real Trump followers are only re-actors, reactors capable of only following and easily misled.

If their was planning it had to be someone else.

Trampers have to blame anyone else but themselves otherwise they might have to questing the source of their information. We see the would as we are not as it is, the shock of seeing thing as they are may be to much for Trampers.   

Quote
Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell says he has accepted the resignation of Senate Sergeant-at-Arms Michael Stenger a day after a pro-Trump mob stormed the Capitol.
The Kentucky Republican said Thursday in a statement that he had earlier requested the resignation and later received it. He says Stenger’s resignation is effective immediately.
Mitch makes no mention of Pelosi???? Odd for a man who will do anything to score pollical points

2
General Comments / Re: Now you've done it
« on: January 15, 2021, 02:01:12 PM »
Silly rabbet don't you know that if you can find Waldo then everyone else around him can't be blamed or held accountable.

We have to do everything we can to avoid looking into our own motives and responsibilities or if haven forbid, wonder if we been manipulated and lied to by those we trusted.
Its the 'Waldo' that fooled everyone not those we blindly put our trust into. We are free from having to look at our selves thank the gods

3
General Comments / Re: Pre-planned Second Impeachment
« on: January 14, 2021, 05:20:12 PM »
That's right, it's only Trump that wants a do over.

Quote
All the states have certified their results as fair and accurate, a judgment made by Republican and Democratic officials alike. There is no prospect for a do-over. Nor has there been a sudden revelation of fraud.

State and federal election officials and Trump’s own attorney general said no systematic fraud was found in the election and no errors of a scale that could possibly change the result.

But again, he's so untethered to reality, I'm not sure you can assert he is lying, ever. He probably saw a quote on 8kun that said so and ran with it. To call it a lie, as opposed to willful ignorance, you'd have to catch him saying the opposite to someone else. He's certainly done that before, but it is a much smaller number of statements.

I've read it somewhere, and even if I can't back up the statement, I can repeat it as a truth. I never lie and most certainly can't be held accountable for what i say or how I say it even if I'm in a leadership position to which more is asked of me.  Catch me if you can, I cannot tell a lie... everyone says so.

Trump lie's. He refuses to do the work and verify his statements before he makes them. 
The election is a fraud because he lost is not poof of fraud, it is a lie!
A lie that he knows is a lie.

You can argue about the system changing rules to disenfranchise voters or make it easier to vote as wrong. However changing the system via the process of the system is not fraud. Cheery picking which states system fraudulent because my guy lost is dishonest.

 If I lose this argument its because you cheated. Everyone says so. I win

4
General Comments / Re: 4D chess endgame
« on: January 14, 2021, 03:56:36 PM »
Trumps followers should have know better then to Trust a man with a history of throwing those that associate with him under the bus.

5
General Comments / Re: Pre-planned Second Impeachment
« on: January 14, 2021, 03:47:30 PM »
Trumps use of words like, 'them' and 'everyone' as justifications or proof ought to have had you stop and question what he was saying. 'Everyone' thinks so. 

6
General Comments / Re: Pre-planned Second Impeachment
« on: January 14, 2021, 03:01:48 PM »

Must be nice to be able to read minds and know with certainty why everyone does was they do. 

You should have given trump the heads up before he gifted with them the capital riots. Such a great leader to fall into that trap...  (Good to know you agree he holds some responsibility here)

I suspect the impeachment will be a win-win for Mitch Mcconnell who I bet wants to get rid of Trump. 
I'd be surprised if Pelosi doesn't retire within the next 2 years. She has misplayed to many hands IMO

One wonders if your attempt to spin the issues at had and blame Pelosi isn't your way of avoiding looking within, at your own enabling capability... but I can't read you mind   

7
General Comments / Re: Pre-planned Second Impeachment
« on: January 14, 2021, 02:59:05 PM »
Must be nice to be able to read minds and know with certainty why everyone does was they do. 

You should have given trump the heads up before he gifted with them the capital riots. Such a great leader to fall into that trap...  (Good to know you agree he holds some responsibility here)

I suspect the impeachment will be a win-win for Mitch Mcconnell who I bet wants to get rid of Trump. 
I'd be surprised if Pelosi doesn't retire within the next 2 years, she has misplayed to many hands.

One wonders if your attempt to spin the issues at had and blame Pelosi for all the evil's isn't a your way of avoiding looking within at your own enabling capability... but I can't read you mind   

8
General Comments / Re: 4D chess endgame
« on: January 14, 2021, 12:24:43 PM »
That does make sense, the media lying about the COVID-19 response (world record development of a vaccine for a novel virus), claiming insurrection and sedition on a pretty flimsy set of facts and broadly attributing it to hundreds (if not thousands or even all registered Republicans) and now "chatter" of even more violence to justify a massive lockdown to protect the defund the police caucus.  Claims of a mass attack that will never be proven because it never materializes, which negative proof - unlike with voter fraud - is going to be considered proof that these actions were required and justified.   All just to explain how a guy who "received 80 million votes" can't seem to fill his own backyard with supporters. 

You are right it does make sense.  I never realized how cynical the media really was thanks.

Delusional and a hypocrite

"the relationship between Trump and his supporters is an abusive one.  When the mind is hijacked for the benefit of the abuser, it becomes no longer a matter of presenting facts or appealing to logic."

9
General Comments / Re: Now you've done it
« on: January 13, 2021, 04:51:29 PM »
He gets a trial in the Senate, probably starting on Jan 19 since McConnell will not call the Senate back early.  If they convict him (with a 2/3 majority) they can then do a simple majority vote to make it impossible to ever hold national office again.  I think McConnell likes this idea because it pulls Trump out of the 2024 race.  I think the GOP main stream members would like this idea. I know at least 3-4 Rep Senators support conviction already.

opps removed my comment that you were responding to

10
General Comments / Re: Now you've done it
« on: January 13, 2021, 04:41:46 PM »
Fenring:
Quote
Is it the consensus among liberals here that this is in fact what he's trying to do? Or is there room in the narrative that his goal was to rile everyone up and where they went with that is more on them?

His goal was to rile everyone up in order to get them to make sure he keeps his job.  How exactly they went about it was up to them.  But still on him.

He didn't send out specific orders to intimidate congress-critters, but he did wind everyone up with a definite goal in mind.

Trump Jr and Giuliani rally comments leading up to Trump's were very provocative as well. I think both should be held accountable as well. Giuliani should be disbarred at a min

11
General Comments / Re: Who will be next to speak out about Trump?
« on: January 13, 2021, 11:46:24 AM »
Quote
So I think we just need to be honest. A big part of this evangelical reckoning is a lot of people sold out their beliefs.
...
I think as this presidency is ending in tatters as it is, hopefully more and more evangelicals will say, "You know, we should have seen earlier, we should have known better, we should have honored the Lord more in our actions these last four years.

I guess he could add to that "as people were literally screaming at us that we were selling out our principles, why did we so adamantly not just ignore them, but demonize them?"

I see no indication within the Evangelical movement towards discernment and taking a hard look at themselves. I suspect that Ed Stetzer will be out of a job soon.

12
Quote
“If you read my speech — and many people have done it, and I’ve seen it both in the papers and in the media, on television — it’s been analyzed, and people thought that what I said was totally appropriate,”

All ways "many people", " the people"  the master strawman

13
General Comments / Re: Now you've done it
« on: January 12, 2021, 06:01:45 PM »
Why the Trump followers are so loyal to him I don't understand, especially as is  everyone associated with him eventually gets thrown under the bus.
Its gone beyond policy into something that isn't politics.

I don't get it... but it reminds me of other movements in history

14
General Comments / Re: Now you've done it
« on: January 11, 2021, 04:16:52 PM »
Breitbart commenters react.

Quote
Trump voters ARE_ARMED

Conservative Whites will be treated like the Jews in 1930’s Germany.

This is the warm up for buying guns and ammo
its going to happen by the end of the month

Anyone know what percentage of Trump Conservatives believe this conspiracy?

15
General Comments / Re: Pencemegeddon
« on: January 11, 2021, 10:57:34 AM »
Their is difference between questioning  and spreading of disinformation
We can disagree on how to interpret the facts of something but if your going to make acquisitions not supported by the facts at hand that's a problem. A problem that isn't political right or left thing its just poor reasoning.

Take the video that Giuliani cut so that it could be taken out of context so it appeared to show fraud. When looking at the full vision the facts come to light and no fraud.  But for those looking for confirmation bias a deep look at the information is not required. Context not required. the doctored video proves their bias and they act on that. Who is to blame her. Giuliani should be disbarred but those who refuse to look at the whole video are also accountable for their failure of discernment. 

Should media outlets that only show the cut version of the video be held accountable. I think so. They should not be viewed as reliable news sources at the minimum.

It seems we only question when it suits us to ask them and that will not lead to dialog , learning or decrement

16
General Comments / Re: Election Results
« on: January 09, 2021, 03:07:37 PM »
... it only takes one questionable identification with some other questionable shadow conspiracy to, if not validate the actions of the followers, at least excuses them. The devil made me do it. I was following one devil but got confused by another.  Not my fault.

Anyway you can't blame Trump followers for following that's what followers do. Not their fault if the are easy led and don't pay much attention to who or what they are following. The ends justify the means and who has time to verify the method or information they lap up?

I guess you missed the identification of the many AntiFa activist that came in on a bus that the FBI noted. I guess you missed the many eyewitness reports of the AntiFa activists being called aout by the Trump supporters, and being physically dragged away from the building.  You are on the wrong side of this.

Even if you could prove that the reports you have about AntiFa are based on any factual evidence - beyond the 'trump media' pointing to self referencing "proof".  Does not excused Trump or his followers   

But that's your game. Get people to talk about Antifa in any way and you win. Create doubt, deny, deny, deny and you win. Not just a symptom of the the problem of being able to believe the media, but the creating of the problem you will then use as proof of your "facts" you can't prove and thus justify and excuses your own actions. Not your fault


17
General Comments / Re: Election Results
« on: January 09, 2021, 01:12:29 PM »
Wm

Were they thousands of Trump supporters there who were honest protester?  Of course there were.  Were there hundreds of Trump supporters/protesters who became a mob and stormed the Capitol?  Yes with out a doubt. Could there have been some type of infiltrator?  I guess, but so far no evidence, other than anecdotal, supports that.  All of the people who stormed the Capitol who have been identified so far are Trump supporters. Every single one.

And if they were lead astray by AntiFa plants, boy were they like sheep.  Did you hear any comments about standing back, about not entering the Capitol? That what they were doing was wrong?  Of course not. Trump had just basically told them what to do.  Just like Guliani. Trial by Combat.

You don't understand it only takes one questionable identification with some other questionable shadow conspiracy to, if not validate the actions of the followers, at least excuses them. The devil made me do it. I was following one devil but got confused by another.  Not my fault.

Anyway you can't blame Trump followers for following that's what followers do. Not their fault if the are easy led and don't pay much attention to who or what they are following. The ends justify the means and who has time to verify the method or information they lap up?

Facts are for kids, silly rabbit.

Fenring argues that the problem is the system that has undermined our ability to discern what is true. We can't blame Trump or hold him accountable because he's just a symptom of that problem. Even if he manipulated and feeds the problem like some cancer he is only a symptom and their is no point in holding him accountable and cutting out the cancer. As for his followers, they are just followers of the symptom of the problem. Nothing can be done here other then shake our heads and frown at the problem of our inability to discern fact from fiction. 

The followers feed the symptom, but not their fault.  If they get it wrong it must be conspiracy, one they are to smart to fall for, except for the ones they fall for.

18
General Comments / Re: Pencemegeddon
« on: January 07, 2021, 04:17:20 PM »


Quote
There are people who systematically destroy information integrity for money, and they know they are doing this at least on some level. Whether Trump is duplicitous and doesn't believe any of the stuff he says, or whether he's crazy and believes false things, might change whether he's part of the problem or part of the symptom, but that's not really that important.

Through ignorance or duplicity we are still responsible for our actions. Trump is accountable for his crazy or believing false things. Those that support him are accountable for the things he stood for, crazy or duped. fool me once shame on you fool me twice shame on me.

Quote
But I don't think it's fair to compare whackos who have been misled

Their is a difference yet how do you show the 'misled' where they went wrong if you don't hold them accountable.

Quote
  the dystopia involves undermining all knowledge so that it is hard to tell if anything you believe is actually true; or worse, when you don't care if it's true, so long as it fits your internal narrative

Not caring what is true, indifference is a individual character flaw IMO. Why are you so keen to let the off the hook .
Discernment if a skill that a person of character tries to cultivate hard or not. They take responsibility for their success and failures - learn better do better. To throw up their hands because its hard and so declare nothing is true and so believe as that wish is their failing.

Your argmuents remind me of the joke. Looks like *censored*, smells like *censored*, tastes like *censored*... good thing I didn't step in it.

19
General Comments / Re: Pencemegeddon
« on: January 07, 2021, 03:47:02 PM »
Quote
You got it backward. People who blame Trumpists are the ones who believe no one is responsible. That way, the environment itself is totally blame-free and when in a particular instance people behave badly it's just taken as some isolated inexplicable incident.

Perhaps if one only reasoned in 'ether or' terms but that is no better the the error of 'bias conformation'

The problem has become systemic, part of the solution is to hold people accountable while addressing the systemic issues. Either or by them selves won't solve anything. 

 When truth is relative and character is old fashioned where do we stand?

20
General Comments / Re: Pencemegeddon
« on: January 07, 2021, 03:43:21 PM »
More false equivalence BS. The election wasn't undermined by corruption and fraud. Every state has certified their votes, Barr said the justice department found no evidence of fraud, Trump lawsuits have presented zero fraudulent votes in court, Trump's own head of election security certified the election was secure, and no one has found any widespread voter fraud efforts. All of the certification and statements of accuracy were done in public by named officials and judges, democrats and republicans not unnamed sources.

You gotta re-read my post, I never said any of this stuff. We are talking about people who presumably think the election was stolen. Why do they think this? Did this new breed of stupid person suddenly emerge? Where were they 15 years ago? My thesis is that information warfare has disintegrated everyone's belief in information that's out there, which includes true information. (duh)

What you say is true, but where do you stand on those the manipulate and exasperate this problem? What comes first the chicken or the egg. Was Trump duped by a disbelieving information or did he help create it. believing only what he wanted to believe and manipulating the mistrust.
Perhaps its the education system to blame not teaching people to look past conformation bias - the new old stupid.  Don't blame the stupid blame the education system and the "media" what ever that is today. 

21
General Comments / Re: Pencemegeddon
« on: January 07, 2021, 03:18:07 PM »
This should only show everyone how dangerous information warfare (which is waged against all Americans every day) is. Because if a lawful election really was undermined by corruption and fraud then this would not only be a legitimate action to take, but in the American spirit would almost be required if you had any honor. So only on the grounds that the fraud charge is bogus does this instead look like sore loser bullying. And this is a distinction not just about worldview but about actual information on the ground. X is either true or it is not true, and the extent to which information is no longer trusted because words on a page are just chicken scratch handed down from "unnamed insider sources" or "senior officials" means that it being true or not true is utterly beyond anyone's ability to discern. This isn't an R vs D issue, it's an issue fundamental to the very fabric of the American media and political system. It pays to spin truth, lie, distort, omit facts, and create narratives often from whole cloth. You can claim a gas attack in Syria was done by Assad, and who other than 0.0000001% of the population is actually there on scene inspecting evidence to know whether he did it or his opponents, blaming him for it? For that matter, how can anyone even know there was a gas attack? Pictures? But we know that MSM networks are caught all the time using fake or old photos to show 'breaking news'. They are just Hollywood television studios where their product is "news style programming". That they will typically still report on actual events is a given; you have to mostly stick to real stuff for the scheme to work. But beyond that there's a reason why many people don't trust even the most basic information, anything ranging from climate change to vaccines to whether an election was fraudulent or not.

You can blame the Trumpers if you like, but they, like Trump himself, are a symptom of a deeply ingrained problem that is perpetuated through denial mostly. 'No, that couldn't happen in my country, the problem is THEM.' That's why scapegoating works, it's believable and easier than having to get up and do something. And the scapegoat can even be guilty to a degree of this or that, that makes it even easier to do; MAGA people might be easy prey to pick on. But they are not the reason why the media isn't trustworthy.

Again a reasoned ground where no one is a fault or held accountable.  It is the  symptom of a ingrained problem at fault never those that manipulate and exasperate the problem.  Trump just a play in a game that is flawed, not his fault. Not his followers fault who don't understand the scientific method and so turn to conspiracy theory's, and the lack of proof as proof. Can't blame them for ignorance and repeating lies told them.

No one accountable. You stand nowhere.

What is this 'media' if the message is the medium?

22
General Comments / Re: Pencemegeddon
« on: January 07, 2021, 01:56:36 PM »
AntiFa the new boggy man?
We have not facts, we have no evidence, I can't be wrong - antifa did it and if not who ever they are, then the devil made me do it.
Whatever, I'm not accountable.

23
General Comments / Re: Pencemegeddon
« on: January 07, 2021, 12:38:51 PM »
Interesting he actually said he would be their with them. A statement that seemed to imply physically present, and it was this statement that seemed to wake up the crowd.
Of course it will be argued that Trump didn't mean he wouldn't be with them physically, Trump never means what he says unless he says it, so none of his followers will blame him for not 'being their with them'.

Cognitive dissonance? By refusing to consider character as a virtue Trump followers cannot see the man as he is.   

24
General Comments / Re: Pencemegeddon
« on: January 07, 2021, 10:50:37 AM »
Ronald Reagan spinning in his grave
I didn't leave the Republican Party, the party imploded and went to hell.

25
General Comments / Re: Pencemegeddon
« on: January 06, 2021, 02:54:53 PM »
Trump's rally appears to have incited violence can and or should he be held accountable.
He is in my opinion has been calling fire in a crowded theater when their is no fire.

Is this the straw the breaks the camels back with Trump's legacy being that of a tarator?
I can't see this ending well for him, not that he will be held accountable but that he losses what's left of his sanity. 

26
General Comments / Re: What to do with actual election fraud?
« on: January 05, 2021, 03:47:25 PM »
Of course that is not logical - which I guess proves that the followers and Trump are not elites
Its a neat trick.

27
General Comments / Re: What to do with actual election fraud?
« on: January 05, 2021, 03:16:13 PM »
By Definition Trump is a élite. I would argue the kind of élite to whom the rules do not apply, the kind of elite his follower hate.
However he is not a elite because his followers view him as one of them and so set him up on a pedestal.... a elite status.
 
The followers seeing Trump as one of them become the elite... who they hate and can't trust? They have created what they fear.

Their is some weird psychological crap going on...

28
General Comments / Re: What to do with actual election fraud?
« on: January 05, 2021, 01:23:19 PM »
Quote
But he still has that hard block of voters he started with in July/August of 2015.  These are the guys who just hate the elites.

Begs the question of what and who are the elites.
It seems today the only place the elite are allowed is in sport. Any where else we do not trust them unless of course they fit our image, but then who is the elitist?
It is ourselves we hate?

29
General Comments / Re: What to do with actual election fraud?
« on: January 05, 2021, 11:58:43 AM »
Trump is either delusional or lying Psychopath . I suspect the latter, a psychopath that has drunk his own cool aid.

For reasons I don't understand history shows that many people are attracted to such people. 

30
General Comments / Re: What to do with actual election fraud?
« on: January 05, 2021, 10:50:33 AM »
Any one who listens to the GA SOS phone call and does not see Trump trying to extort votes is lacking in comprehension. Almost every legal scholar sees this as a violation of state and federal law. Trump will probably pardon himself for the Federal crime, but my guess is he will be prosecuted on a state level.

With all that is going on in the world, Trump is focused on one thing.  Not finding out who did the cyber attack.  Not working on a plan for the vaccine. But on trying to extort a few thousand votes so he can win one state.

Trump showed he real politician. In the hour long phone call he speaks clearly and carefully (unlike his usual ramblings showing once again he knows exactly what he's doing when he communicates as he does)

Trump dances on the line of extortion but I suspect Seriati is correct on this one.

Trump knew exactly what he was doing and we all know what Trump was trying to do, but making the case it was illegal is another thing. Once again he will not be held accountable for the seeds he is sowing. The opposite actually, his base will see the call as proof of fraud. It would not surprise me if it was Trump that released the recording.

31
Quote
The only way to get better candidates is to hold the candidates that you support to account for their behavior, you get no where holding the other guy's candidates to "account," or demanding that they do so.  It's literally impossible to accept moralizing in support of a party that has no problem with an Adam Schiff but wants others to have problems with a Donald Trump, or even that liked Donald Trump before he was a politician and declared him the devil afterwards.

The only way to get better candidates is to hold the candidates that you support to account for their behavior, you get no where holding the other guy's candidates to "account," or demanding that they do so.  It's literally impossible to accept moralizing in support of a party that has no problem with an 'Trump' but wants others to have problems with a 'Adam Schiff' , or even that liked Donald Trump before he was a politician and declared him the devil afterwards.

You apply standards you don't hold yourself to.

32
General Comments / Re: What to do with actual election fraud?
« on: January 04, 2021, 05:18:26 PM »
Trump was repeating, ad nauseam before the election, that if he lost, it would be because of fraud.  He lost.  The only rational explanation was that there was fraud.  This is all the evidence he needs.

And it has been enough to convince, after endless repetition, a huge swathe of the country.

They cannot see their shadow and so create what they fear


33
General Comments / Re: What to do with actual election fraud?
« on: January 04, 2021, 04:15:45 PM »
If you really believe something is true you can't be held accountable and if you can't prove something didn't happen it is proof that something did happen.
That's just common sense which over 1/3 of the population accepts, which is even more proof their was fraud.
What's not to get?

34
General Comments / Re: What will Trump do in his last 28 days?
« on: December 23, 2020, 05:31:50 PM »
A man of reason has devoured his own tail and become a strawman like his master

The left has told us as if the left has ever spoken with one voice. Or is it Hillary that speaks for all... but sure her comments or equivalent to that of a president (maybe in your eyes she won)
The entire DNC... your powers of knowing what everyone thinks is amazing.   

In the past when you argued about policies I used to think that often you have a point. Now I cannot see you as anything but a apologist and worse a appeaser blind to the impact of your fact-less conspiracy "reasoning".   

35
General Comments / Re: Election Results
« on: December 17, 2020, 06:23:27 PM »
Quote
Democrats are masters of rationalization.  Since they always have to believe they are the good guys, they'll buy in and publish completely false statements that sound plausible.

Projection much?


36
General Comments / Re: Election Results
« on: December 17, 2020, 06:20:31 PM »
Quote
The integrity of the electoral process is gone, and no one is going to do anything meaningful to get it back.  Instead the left is going to increase the rate at which they undermine it.  They don't believe in actual Democracy because they honestly can't believe that their side may be unpopular.  If Democrats lose an election its proof that the voters that are wrong, not that the the Democrats, are.  If they win by even just one vote (even if they got thousands of fraudulent votes) then it is  an absolute mandate to do anything they want, even the things they lied about wanting to do to get elected.  I mean honestly, this is not a mandate election, it's clear we have a divided country, but if they get those 2 Senate seats they've already said they're going to make massive structural changes.

No one can catch mail fraud and prove it at scale.  It can not be done.  The evidence that is required is deliberately secret and often destroyed.

You have devoured your own tail. 

Trumpism has created the thing it feared but will never take responsibility.  (Not surprising as its foundation is F.E.A.R. - False Evidence (not even) Appearing Real) . 
Without any proof it has been decided,  the election process has no integrity. The only proof that matters, my man has lost even though everything before the election pointed towards him losing.
Never wondering if Trumps better then expected results could be fraud....

A man who prides himself on logic and reason of his arguments has thrown his reason away and stands on nothing.
No if the integrity is in question you and those that follow Trump as if a god have done it. 
Shame on you

37
General Comments / Re: Predictions and thoughts on the Biden Presidency
« on: December 17, 2020, 11:09:12 AM »
I think the theory is that the money will be spent, hopefully locally (rent, food, donations or what ever) and in this way provide fuel for the economy. Trickle up as it were 

38
General Comments / Re: Election Results
« on: December 16, 2020, 04:12:15 PM »
Political suicide or justice? https://populist.press/intel-source-declares-president-trump-the-winner-of-2020-election/

Curious wmLambert: Do you really believe trump won? And do you ever worry about conformation bias and participation in echo chambers?   

39
Should add that I think your rhetoric style would also leave Bidin off the hook and unaccountable. Its not a right or left thing I'm commenting on

40
Yes. Your mistake was in presuming you knew why it was wrong or stupid, in fact presuming that the reason it was considered to be wrong was itself wrong or stupid, and then in not listening when the mistake you made in your own presumption was explained to you (repeatedly)

Funny you should say I presumed to know why it was wrong or stupid, since literally my first post in response was to ask you why you thought it was wrong or stupid. Are you sure you're not just trying to...I dunno...bash me on the head or something? I did offer a possible reason I thought it might not be stupid, but that was only a particular case to show that it is possible to imagine a scenario where his actions might be supportable. It had zero to do with guessing at your reasons. Re-read what I wrote.

The challenge I have with your reasonable reasoning is that it tends to go nowhere often effectively ending the dialog of the issue at hand (which you avoid) and speak over.
I don't see you as a Trump apologist but that your dislike of 'Trump - haters'  rhetoric leads to a position of appeasist.

We cannot know with any certainty what goes on behind closed doors or within the mind of Trump, their may be "possible reasons" that you could think of" to explain what on the surface may appear 'wrong' No judgment given

You ask those you debate to find those reasons yet you never ask that of Trump. Your arguments allow Trump's reasons to remain oblique and you off the hook of taking a stand.

In this case it is not likely Trump will explain his reasoning for making the threat in the public manner in which he did.
You excuse him because their could be reasons... and your right its possible that he may have had solid reasons for doing as he does. But you won't ask him to explain himself or hold him accountable either way.

41
You're missing the content, and focussing on the medium.  Dressing down someone in public has a time and place.  That is not in dispute.  What you continue to ignore is the substance: "approve the vaccine tomorrow or get fired".  As a statement, that is hugely problematic, and ignoring that substance to focus on a theoretical authority that is not in question in this case is the problem.

Are you sure you aren't getting this backward? Your initial post didn't include any information that I saw other than that Trump threatened this guy. I assumed the meat of it was that the threat itself was evidence of Trump's bumbling, therefore doing so was in and of itself problematic, even aside from any details about the approval process. So it seemed that your objection was something to the effect that Trump has no business threatening this guy for this reason, and that it's further evidence of Trump's incompetence. But that conclusion really only follows if there was no good reason for it, unless it's an objection to form. I don't think I've been focusing on the medium; I addressed the different sides of it.

Your not wrong but play on safe ground without again standing anywhere. You look only at the immediate statement of the person your addressing. You ask that we look behind the statements of Trump to determine their worth but refuse to do the same for those you are responding to.  Their statements are cut and dry but for Trumps you must look deeper.

You have yet to make a stand. Was the public threat to the FDA good policy, politics... The right thing to do?

42
Since Trump's action was completely public, then ignoring the public aspect of his action misses some very significant effects of those actions... namely, the public perception of his statement as described earlier.

I don't think I said anything about ignoring the public aspect of his action. In fact if I had to guess I'd say there is good incentive to publicize something that communicates "see I'm doing something about this". Not that this was perhaps the best option of something to publicize. So yeah, dressing down this guy could have been done in private, but Trump probably wanted everyone to see him doing it. The issue still boils down to (a) whether there was in fact a reason to dress him down, and (b) whether being 'mean' in public (or anywhere) is ever a good thing. I was predominantly addressing (a).

In your analyses how do you find with regards to a? Does you reasoning conclude that the reason was reason enough to make the treat or not?

You sometimes appear to ignore Trumps past especially as it concerns his 'leadership' philosophy and use of threats.
In the telling of Trump's favorite story about the old lady and the snake I sometimes wonder if those making the type of arguments you tend to make aren't playing the role of the old lady.

43
Its reasonable that a president can apply pressure when needed but it comes off as the end conclusion of the issue your commenting on. Leaving the administration once again off the hook for method, means and timing.

To me the only question is the behind-closed-doors why of an action. You tell me the President has threatened someone's job, I want to know why. I won't condemn it out of hand unless it's pretty clear that there was no good reason to threaten anyone or that a much more reasonable option was available. But I could just as soon concoct a scenario where you would be outraged that someone's job wasn't threatened. Someone posted above that you threaten in private, praise in public, or something like that. But I can also envision cases where the public itself needs to see that some things won't be tolerated, so publicizing a dressing down can have morale benefits. I have no idea if any of this applies to what Trump did. But what we tend to get is Trump does something, people condemn it because it's Trump, and then if there's pushback against the logic there is scrambling to retroactively justify the condemnation. I don't think I push back against arguments that are reasoned out from the start.

Begs the question what is a good reason to 'threaten'? What type of threats are reasonable?   

So in this case - Where do you stand was Meadows right in making the threat? Was it political or in the countries good?
If Mark Meadows threat gets the FDA to approve the vaccine before they completed their process who gets to be held accountable if something goes wrong?

If Meadows will stand up behind his demand and take responsibility, then fine threaten away.


44
Your posts are always reasonable however some times they come across as appeasement and I wonder if your philosophy ever holds people accountable what they say and or how they do things?

You don't even want to know the extent to which I think politicians should be held accountable...

That being said I suspect the reason I post so much on the side against Trump-hate is predominantly because I have a tendency to post about what I see as flaws in reasoning, and much of the invective against Trump has been unreasonable. I've really never seen anything like it before. You can rest assured that if, during Biden's presidency, crazy comments are made against him I'll fight the logic on those too.

I tend to read your posts for that perspective.  Its just that often by focusing on the the flaws in reasoning and coming to the conclusion like  "But in principle I don't see why president's shouldn't apply pressure when needed"  I think you miss the point that was behind those commenting on the method and timing of "applying pressure".
Its reasonable that a president can apply pressure when needed but it comes off as the end conclusion of the issue your commenting on. Leaving the administration once again off the hook for method, means and timing.

Because or if your starting point of dialog appears to be that anyone talking about Trumps actions and policies in the negative is because they are Trump-haters your reasoning in the end seems is to let him off the hook.

45
The FDA had already prefilled the paperwork.  He didn't effect anything, other than a false accusation of playing games and implying that he accelerated the process.

Yeah, if all he did was waste his breath on an already approved process then it's bluster and nothing more. But that's a bit separate from the idea itself of making demands of the FDA in the abstract. I'm not so sure presidents should just mind their own business if they don't like how an emergency is being handled. In fact during Katrina the accusation against Bush was the opposite, that he essentially did just mind his own business rather than making things happen effectively. From DonaldD's post it sounded like he was objecting to the president even getting involved, whereas I kinda think it's ok if there is reason to get involved. If as you say there was literally nothing to gain then it's just silly ranting on Trump's part. But in principle I don't see why president's shouldn't apply pressure when needed.

Your posts are always reasonable however some times they come across as appeasement and I wonder if your philosophy ever holds people accountable what they say and or how they do things?

46
Trump totally did not start the president-symbol. It's been the case for a while that IMO you can just erase the politician's name and replace it with D or R and it practically wouldn't matter. It may have started with Bush43, but for a while the president has been the embodiment of the beliefs of that bloc of voters. You are voting for an ideological viewpoint, not for a person. There is no way a pro-life voter is going to switch from R to D because they think the Democrat's economics make more sense; and no way that a liberal is voting R because their candidate cheated in the primaries. There might be some small contingent of swing voters who are truly open to voting for either party depending on who the better candidate is, but I suspect the vast majority are locked in. In fact, even here on Ornery this seems to be the tacit understanding, as seen when discussing how the presidential election is often linked primarily to supreme court nominations, which obviously has nothing to do with the character of the candidates and is strictly a D vs R consideration.

I agree that Trump did not start the president-symbol.
Its my opinion that Trump as a symbol, though political embodies a 'something' else that isn't based on reason (that is not a political left or right statement)

Your right though people are locked in. Yet I wonder if many are aware of what they are really locking into or reacting to.

47
I think we have the answer.

Trump has became a symbol and symbols take on lives of their own. Trump support is no longer about politics but a..... something else. As long as Trump remains a symbol there is nothing he could do that would cause him to lose the support of his followers. 

Quote
Whereas at the point of the symbol creation or employment, they are clearly understood to stand for one or more principles that are shared by members of a movement, the underpinnings of that movement tend to fall by the wayside as time goes on.

This is especially true when those who stand behind a symbol are successful. Whether victory comes through revolution, war, or peaceful means, what tends to happen is that a society, or at least a significantly larger group than the original one, adopts the original ends to which those who adopted the symbol aspired. In some cases, the organizations that started the movement disband, while in others, they remain but tend to become less significant over time, as their goals become considered the norm. In other cases, though, the symbols remain, with the groups having grown larger, often to include those who were drawn more to the idea of being part of a movement than to any adherence to the principles espoused by that movement.

48
General Comments / Re: What to do with actual election fraud?
« on: December 11, 2020, 11:07:21 AM »
I preferred the illusion when I believed that some leaders had the moral courage to sacrifice for the greater good even when doing so goes against their self or even party interest

49
General Comments / Re: Who Pledges Their Lives and Fortune to Trump
« on: December 09, 2020, 05:43:14 PM »
Quote
I don't believe you would make this argument if it was anyone else and any other context. I see nothing inherently "bad" about stating that the American voters are nuts, which is basically what it amounts to. Or perhaps more broadly, that the American political landscape is nuts. Which it is. There, I'm saying it too, does that make me a bad person?

Saying it may not be 'bad'
If you manipulated, encourage and weaponized the crazy to metaphorically murder then I would say that makes you a immoral person and most definitely not a leader that should be followed/worshiped.

I thought that when Trump made that statement it wasn't about the crazy it was about his narcissism. Look how popular I am I can murder someone and grab any woman's pussy.  They let you do it when your famous you know. 

50
General Comments / Re: What to do with actual election fraud?
« on: December 09, 2020, 05:34:49 PM »
Wow.  17 other states have signed on to the Texas suit as amici curiae, trying to overthrow the certifications of the states that supported Biden.

It's not as if they even want to be successful - can you imagine if SCOTUS actually agreed with that argument?  You'd have California suing Kansas over environmental regulations.  New York suing Texas over taxation.  It's ridiculous, and they know it.  But they see that sucking up to idiotic Trump supporters in this way as being of political benefit.

I have a bad feeling about this.

I have a feeling that these state officials know something that we don't.  That the fix is in.  That all these other lawsuits were just the sideshow for this main event.  And the outcome is already predetermined.

The suit has no basis.  As you say, why should any other state be able to dictate how another runs its elections?  That's the one thing the Constitution left to the states.  Feeding the base doesn't seem to be a good enough reason to join.  But jumping on the bandwagon does.

If the SCOTUS finds for this suit, it will be a very narrow ruling, only applying to this election, so as to leave all other state's right intact.  So there is no downside to joining this suit.  But that would be already determined.

One state trying a crazy lawsuit is standard operating procedure in America.  Seventeen joining it?  That smells of conspiracy to me.

I hope I'm just overreacting.

Trump hinted that he would comment on his final opinion on Barr until sometime in the near future.  It was odd and to me suggested he was working towards something.

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