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Messages - rightleft22

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1
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If classism is at the heart of it then the rich wouldn't want the poor around regardless of their skin color, and would take concerted efforts to keep anyone down who is already down

I would argue that the rich don't want any poor around and use the tool of discrimination justified by racist reasoning to distract the 'useful idiots' - the poor and middle classes of all races - from effectively dealing with the problem. Its a win win for the rich who do not care about the color of the poor only that they the keep their distance.

Watched how the poor and middle class successful protested and kill Seattle plan to tax Amazon for support of affordable housing. A issue Amazon rich mangers exacerbated by driving up the cost of homes. So much so that even those with full time half descent jobs were homeless. Though the lack of affordable hosing affected more Black people proportionately it also affected negatively many of those who protested and killed the plan. Even if they didn't realize it. Much of the reasoning for their protests were based on racist reasoning.   

2
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The people with money want to protect what they have, and want something for their buck, and those without it want to change the system. Those with control over the money supply want it to benefit their interests, and those with huge capital want it to leverage policy into their own monopolistic or oligarchic enrichment. You can classify all of this under D for duh. Rich people don't want poor people messing up their neighborhood, a headline you can find in any age going back to Ancient Rome I'm sure.

True the people with money want to protect what they have and have the power to create policy with is often discriminatory against those without wealth and or power. The justifications for such policy is what is often racist, (racist ideas didn't create policy so much as policy creates racist ideas.) The racist the problem becomes systemic as the reasoning becomes embedded in our thinking.
 
i.e. Black people moving into a neighborhood lowers property values. (black people = crime). You can't say that now now its adding low cost housing to a community = lower property values and may people think = Black.

I might argue that the 'class protecting their interests have in the past successful uses racist reasoning to defend their actions and distract the 'useful idiot' from realizing that the discrimination doesn't just hurt Black people but the poor 'lower class' as well. Allowing such racist reasoning no matter how well hidden behind the words we use to become systemic.  So separating the debate on class and racism become difficult because its been a tool of classism to distract
 

3
General Comments / Re: coronavirus
« on: August 11, 2020, 04:46:31 PM »

They have only 500 new cases per day, and about 10 deaths per day. They have achieved phase 4 of their reopening plan. This is not "full reopening", they are still keeping people out of indoor dining. Sports still have no fans in attendance. Businesses in violation get shut down after three warnings - including not following outdoor dining.

Part of that is because NYC has 'partial herd immunity', antibody surveys suggest 20-25% of NYC might have been exposed (though I suspect that is probably a significant overestimate - their testing method is highly susceptible to oversampling those most likely to have caught it - because they are more frequently out and about) and the people most likely to spread tend to be those most likely to get it early.  I'm sure their measures have been effective is slowing the spread, but I think their current numbers are also benefiting from their early mistakes.

So if that is accurate we should start to see the 'herd immunity' affect starting to show in Florida and California within the next few... weeks?

4
General Comments / Re: coronavirus
« on: August 10, 2020, 02:36:49 PM »
Quote
If we aren’t willing to take this action, millions more cases with many more deaths are likely before a vaccine might be available. In addition, the economic recovery will be much slower, with far more business failures and high unemployment for the next year or two. The path of the virus will determine the path of the economy. There won’t be a robust economic recovery until we get control of the virus.

If we do this aggressively, the testing and tracing capacity we’ve built will support reopening the economy as other countries have done, allow children to go back to school and citizens to vote in person in November. All of this will lead to a stronger, faster economic recovery, moving people from unemployment to work.

How bad would the virus have to be for it to have a greater impact on the recovery then the impact of a shutdown? Where is the tipping point? How do you separate the two measurements - impact of covid-19 to recovery and impact of shutdowns on recovery?
How do we define/measure successful control of the virus?  The number of active cases are going up yet the death rate remains static is that control?

Part of the issue is that most people don't know anyone that has gone through the negative experience of having covid19 or losing a loved one to it. However many know people who have experienced the pain due to the economic cost of prevention.
At this moment in time one could argue that more people have suffered and perhaps even died (if we were measuring that) due to the lock-down then due the virus.

I work at a job were the better I do it, prevent defects from being released, the more likely my job will eventually be viewed as an unnecessary expense. Inevitably I will be asked to justify the position by measuring the cost of prevention.  I have failed more times then succeeded because we tend to forget the cost of pain when we stop feeling it and cross the tipping point where its the cost of prevention that is viewed as being painful.

So even though I know the value of prevention and the difficulty of measuring something that prevention stops from happening…. As I watch the covid19 numbers I am finding it more and more difficult not to ask the question to justify the cost of prevention








5
General Comments / Re: coronavirus
« on: August 10, 2020, 01:24:11 PM »
Neel Kaskari, president of the Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis, called for a nationwide economic shutdown for up to six weeks to get the coronavirus pandemic under control

Quote
"The next six months could make what we have experienced so far seem like just a warm-up to a greater catastrophe. With many schools and colleges starting, stores and businesses reopening, and the beginning of the indoor heating season, new case numbers will grow quickly," Kashkari wrote in a New York Times op-ed with Dr. Michael T. Osterholm, the director of the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy at the University of Minnesota.

The problem with the statement is the 'could make' while not address the economic impact of such a six week national shutdown that 'could make' the over all impact on people lives worse then the virus. This is not a either or problem but one that requires people to behave reasonably and as if they are 'their brothers keeper' as well.


6
General Comments / Re: Is Our Partisanship a Threat to Our Democracy?
« on: August 10, 2020, 11:40:24 AM »
Partisan politics obstructs rational and critical thinking.

 “Research has shown parts of the brain tasked with processing critical thinking and reasoning, literally going dark to avoid the unpleasantness of discommoding political information.”
In his book, “The Political Brain,” Drew Westen describes how the brains of partisans “‘reason’ [their] way to the desired conclusions,” adopting faulty thinking in order to “turn off the spigot of unpleasant emotion.” What’s more, the brain actually goes out of its way to reward this biased and self-contradictory “reasoning,” content to curate pleasing, bias-conforming information.
 
Loyalty to a political party often trumps reason and logic:
•   Tendency to recognize that stereotypes aren’t accurate within our own group, but we’re still inclined to generalize about our adversaries
•   To remain loyal, we overly simplify issues instead of giving ample consideration to points from both sides
•   Tendency to justify and rationalize when it’s “our guy”
•   Failure to recognize that the labels don’t really fit the political parties
•   Reliance on party’s ‘reputation’ rather than impartially evaluating its actions

Interesting 20% of the population are consistently conservative or liberal yet dominate political landscape. It is the failure of critical thinking that distorts that reality into the "Us verses the Other" divisions.  Meaning that its likely that the majority of us play the role of the 'useful idiot' when it comes to politics.

7
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These protests have a "violent core" attached to it that have been from present from the start, and the presence of the Feds simply provided them a target to focus their attention on, rather actually escalate the violence in and of themselves...

The Portland protests aren't about Black Lives Matter, and never really have been, although many of its participants like to think they were. The Portland Protests are all about waging psychological warfare.

This exemplifies what is pissing us off, Deamon.

First you talk about the "violent core," which by implication is a minority of the protesters.  (If it were a majority, it wouldn't be a "core" now, would it? ;) )

Then you make a blanket statement that "the Portland protests aren't about..." based on what this core minority does.

This is what we mean when we say that you are blaming the entire protest on the actions of a minority.  Suddenly the intentions of everyone outside of the "violent core" is subsumed by this "core."

Have you ever considered that the protests are really all about Black Lives Matters and justice for all Americans, not just the ones that look right, and it is this "violent core" that is exploiting it to wage their psychological warfare against the will of the majority? ;)

I would add that we have tendency to define a group based on the actions of a few or make the bad apple argument. Which way be decide to defend or define a group tells us more about ourselves then the group or issue.

Take those who lean toward the 'Law and Order' argument. Often in this case the protesters are defined by the actions of the few while the police are left off the hook and not being defined by the "few bad apples". (I've done this many times myself without realizing the contradiction in my arguments)


Ibram X makes a pretty good argument that when it comes to race Blacks are more often defined by the actions of a individuals which may be at the heart of a lot of racist policies.  Need to defend a policy that discriminates? Define the group by the actions of a few individuals.  Its a interesting observations. In this context the The Portland protests discussions are very much about race issues.



8
His inability and even more his refusal to engage with issues that threaten him personally, is a significant problem.

His own people have let slip that bringing anything Russia-related to him is basically unacceptable; think about that - people in the president's orbit will not provide him information concerning a significant competitor of the USA, one that is possibly, even likely, targeting the country's armed forces, thereby completely impeding the country's ability to defend itself and to defend its own troops.

In the same way, Trump is seemingly incapable of providing leadership in controlling the pandemic, because he sees the virus as being a weapon used against his re-election chance, even though actually addressing the pandemic and reducing infection rates would benefit him in the medium term.

His psychology and reasoning abilities are not well suited for leadership

Trumps comment on the Lebanon blast shows lack of judgment. True he was just repeating what he was told and one imagines the selected individuals he listened to for that information. But it was irresponsible as a leader to make such statements when the answer wasn't known.  One wonders if or how this information crossed his desk?  I would bet his sources where his online conspiracy go to's and not a official briefing.
So yeah how he said what he said not wrong int that he wasn't saying it as a fact but speculation. Just another example of poor leadership intelligence.

9
The problem or a problem is Trumps inability to communicate complex ideas and the interview expecting that he can.

Trump is implying that if a issue does not cross his desk but comes up he is not responsible to looking into it.  That's a problem of leadership
His explanation that intelligence on the issue was week and so not something he can address with Russia is valid.
The next question should have been. Will There be further investigation? 
Instead Trump rambles about what does and does not  'crosses his desk' confusing the issue with a leadership question.

And when trump talks about the methods of measurement of covid data he dons't or can't talk about the nuances of measurements and why things might be measured multiple ways.
One suspect Trump or the ones feeding him information chose the measurement of Active covid cases - death ratio for no other reason then that that Trump would like those number better.
It is a valid measurement as is the measurement of population - death measurement. Both provide info but in context. Trump isn't' capable of explaining context so it all gets muddled and we are left to unscramble what the he "means".

And then their all his 'facts' based on the old he heard someone had this or that experience but for which he seldom has a name for that someone or them.

10
General Comments / Re: covid-19 outside the US
« on: July 30, 2020, 01:24:34 PM »
Quote
What if we had that attitude about Measles, Smallpox, and Polio?

I don't think you can compare Covid-19 with the above issues.
Every virus has its unique characteristic and covid appears to be similar to the Spanish flu if less deadly.

The Spanish flu is reported to have cause the deaths of 50 million people in a three year time frame and then 'disappeared' (actually it can be traced as being part of other viruses just not as deadly for those that survived) so the Deamon may be correct in that Covid-19 will go the same way.

11
I guess its possible but it seems to me that the AntiFa label is being used as a bogyman distraction so unless you have clear facts on AntiFa membership and actions I'm not convinced by your reasoning.  I admit I know nothing about Antifa

That it's been getting attention in here since 2016, that's not fully our fault. Coverage of AntiFa activities in Portland was largely constrained to either local press or right-wing media, with it sometimes getting national/international attention as seen with the BBC report in 2019. At this point, if you're oblivious about AntiFa it's because you prefer to be, and no amount of evidence any of us present you is likely to be worth the effort. So you're on your own.

Quote
I also don't think we should be using the label to distract from the very real issues and concerns behind the protest. Of course such distractions have work quite well in the past and I suspect they will work now in order to keep the status quo.

The presumes a false choice dichotomy. It's almost as if you believe Criminal Justice and Law Enforcement Reform is incapable of running on a different track than condemning the rioters in Portland and elsewhere. I reject that premise completely.

I can condemn the people trying to destroy/damage the Federal Building in Portland while working towards police reforms. Although it's pointless during an election year on the Federal Level as while the Republicans would love to make reforms happen, the Dems won't meet them halfway as they don't want to "give Trump that victory" so the only "compromise" they'll accept are poison pill offerings to the Republicans.

I agree its a false choice dichotomy yet history has shown that when it comes to such protests the tactic of distracting by focus on the 'law breakers' works to maintaining the status quo.

As for "the Republicans would love to make reforms happen" I see no evidence of that.

12
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As AntiFa doesn't seem to be fighting these Portland rioters in the streets this time around, it is logical to conclude the rioters in the streets of Portland are AntiFa.

Portland Librarians don't seem to be fighting theses Portland rioters, its logical to conclude the rioters in the streets of Portland are Librarians.

I was unaware that the Librarian Association of Portland has had a recent history of violent street confrontations with those they oppose. Could you provide some evidence to back up that claim?

I stand by the reasoning that since Portland AntiFa has both the history, and outlook of physical confrontation of those they disagree with. That the only reasonable conclusion can be one of three things is going on at the Federal buildings in Portland where it concerns AntiFa:
1) It is AntiFa attacking the Federal Buildings.
2) AntiFa agrees with attacking with the Federal Buildings. (In which case, see #1)
3) AntiFa no longer exists in Portland. (I don't believe that)

I find the reasoning weak. 
I guess its possible but it seems to me that the AntiFa label is being used as a bogyman distraction so unless you have clear facts on AntiFa membership and actions I'm not convinced by your reasoning.  I admit I know nothing about Antifa

I also don't think we should be using the label to distract from the very real issues and concerns behind the protest. Of course such distractions have work quite well in the past and I suspect they will work now in order to keep the status quo.


13
General Comments / Re: General Barr's Hearing
« on: July 29, 2020, 10:28:03 AM »
Quote
Instead they decided to weaponize their committee meetings in pursuit of political grandstanding

They have.

I agree that the committee hearings are farce. A Farce in which all members should be ashamed of themselves. The GOP and DNC have lost their way

14
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As AntiFa doesn't seem to be fighting these Portland rioters in the streets this time around, it is logical to conclude the rioters in the streets of Portland are AntiFa.

Portland Librarians don't seem to be fighting theses Portland rioters, its logical to conclude the rioters in the streets of Portland are Librarians.

15
And they are all antifa rioters, right? "No one" in the crowd is after racial justice, they're just out to get Trump and using this as an excuse.

Anyone who is protesting after 10PM in Portland that thinks they're protesting for BLM while doing nothing to stop the thugs next to them is being "a useful idiot." End of story.

Sadly that's true, and unfortunately those who oppose racial change, or change of any sort, only need one bad example to undo the work of the many.
Funny sad that the same people will use the bad apple excuses to also justify the keeping to the status quo and avoid talk of change.

Just as it takes 99 positive 'at a boys' to overcome a single negative 'you suck', change is a object at rest difficult to get moving. Of course that is the fear, once change is placed in motion how do you stop it, best to keep it at rest.

16
General Comments / Re: China is in a bad, bad way.
« on: July 27, 2020, 10:35:24 AM »
2020 just keeps on giving

17
Decipher Trump's motivation... I'm tired of it. Standard defense of trump is to He says what he means except when he doesn't in which chase you have to read between the lines. And You never get to know when to apply the rules.

I'm not really interested in deciphering his motivation or defending him, but as there is a constant barrage of people trying to make political hay out of everything he says, such as above with the out-of-context quote about stormtroopers, the form of using those soundbites is what needs to be pushed back against. That this is used against Trump 99.9% of the time since he's always the main event is not my choice, but I would push back against this type of gotcha tactic in any context if it was being done repeatedly.

I failed to find the out-of-context quote about storm-trooper . Was this something Trump said or DonaldD said?

I agree with you on the misuse of soundbits understandably difficult with a President who's primary means of communication is the twitter soundbite.

That it might not be your choice to make Trump the main event I suspect it is his. I would argue that Trump intentionally uses the soundbite to remain center of attention, and for the most part is works in his favor. If he gets burned by that strategy every now and then is his bad. To complain about being the attention while seeking out attention is disingenuous at best.

Asking that trump be clear in his communication may be a gotcha tactic... you might think after 3 years he would figure out a better way of communication if it was really bothering him. As he is not a stupid man I suspect his communication style is intentional. It works for his base and that is all he needs. 

The gotcha tactic being done repeatedly I was referring to is the one were we are being asked to take Trumps comments at face value except for the ones were not.  The choosing of how we ought to respond to a comment left to Trump apologists.

What we should be pushing back on is a Leader the fails to communicate intelligently and that plays these types of games.  Maybe 'I wish her well' means nothing. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt however his history of calling out "criminal" makes it understandable that for many people it begs the question of why he would be kind to her. Trumps political persona is not one of kindness. Trump himself plays the game when reading into other peoples sound bits so I don't go into this Poor Trump he's being victimized crap.

We all should be demanding better but I fear we get what we deserve.


18
Who is talking about trash talking? The president literally "wished her well" - a person arrested for child trafficking, by his own justice system, the one of which he is the titular head.  I know the bar has dropped so far that we barely bat an eye when he brings the stupid now, but numbness really is not an excuse for rationalizing new instances of stupid. If he had "no commented" or made a pat response about confidence in the justice system, it would have been a non-issue.

Maybe you consult some tea leaves or a magic 8 ball to better decipher Trump's motivation.

I'm hard pressed to find a nefarious slant to "I wish her well" both in the vein of Trump likely having met her personally on a few occasions, given previously known ties to Epstein and her being associated with Epstein in the time-frame Trump wasn't otherwise estranged from the guy.

Or the matter that Epstein's own suicide while in custody does raise a number of concerns about her own potential well being, and reports that they're moving her around a lot, as though they assume her life is in danger from outside parties. And the list goes on and on.

Her prosecution potentially puts a lot of high profile and highly powerful people at some unknown degree of risk, and we probably don't want to know what kind of reach those people have if angered. So in that respect his "I wish her well" could simply be a circumspect(unusual for Trump, I know) statement from Trump that he hopes she lives to see her trial through to completion if nothing else.

Decipher Trump's motivation... I'm tired of it. Standard defense of trump is to He says what he means except when he doesn't in which chase you have to read between the lines. And You never get to know when to apply the rules.

A leader should be clear. A intelligent leader understanding their role would have said no comment.  It just stunning who Trump wishes well and who he decides to call names and such.
But yeah we are the problem, we read to much or to little in what his says and or what his actions point to. We can take Trump at his word except for those comments that were not to.

19
General Comments / Re: Roger Stone pardon
« on: July 21, 2020, 09:36:00 AM »
Quote
The Mueller investigation repeatedly and illegally leaked fake stories to the media that made those they were persecuting look bad.  The same media ran those stories uncritically and even went so far as to cover up their sources, even after the stories were shown to be untrue.  Yet Stone not aloud to respond.

If you believe civil rights - at all - what Mueller did should have you terrified.  Yet, the problem is President Trump?  Absurd.

We disagree with the interpretation of 'facts' regarding the Mueller investigation. Maybe I was was snowed and gas-lit. Perhaps we are all gas-lit. Still when I read your explanations and defense of Trump I can't get it out of my head that if we were talking about Hillary doing the same thing you would reverse your arguments 180.  That's my bad as it makes dialog really difficult. 

I find the statement about civil rights, Mueller and Trump troubling. I'm not sure if that is a attempt to excuse or distract from Trump poor leadership and performance. If you not excusing Trump then how are you not terrified that no matter where you look the countries civil rights path is so crooked?   

20
General Comments / Re: Roger Stone pardon
« on: July 20, 2020, 02:36:38 PM »
Quote
But yes, if you look at the history of pardons, they are littered with pardons of friends,  family and political allies.  Heck if you look at Clinton with Mark Rich, that pardon was arguably the result of bribery.  I mean what do you call it when a rich fugitive from justice gets pardoned after his wife makes large contributions to Hillary's Senate campaign and the Clinton library?  Can you even imagine how your head would explode if you could find something similar that Trump did?

Its interesting that you don't view what trump did with regards to Stone as similar?  I am reasonably confident if Clinton did the exact same thing with the same timing your head would explode.

The problem of these types of pardons is that they are wrong no matter which party. Its not acceptable.  Most presidents wait till they are about to leave office to pull off this crap That Trump new he would get away with doing such thing now should be troubling for everyone.

Shame....

21
General Comments / Re: coronavirus
« on: July 20, 2020, 02:29:38 PM »
I know walmart employees, and yes they aren't happy about having to get customers to put masks back on. I believe they have dedicated security at the front door. I don't know of any who are against the choice, most are relieved because the policy protects their health.

Meanwhile, we issued a statewide mask order and the amount of confrontation did not drop as a result, according to my retail friends. Anti-maskers couldn't care less about what the Governor says.

Statewide plus support from the feds at least makes it government instead of store policy. The stores don't want to be the "bad guys" to the customers.

The anti maskers are f-ing a**holes. If Trump would just flip on this to help the economy reopen then anti-maskers would largely become such a fringe as to not impact public help. As long as Trump tacitly is supporting them and undermining public health policy they are just going to make everything suck for everyone.

Trump goes all in on the malaria pills as nothing to loss but for masks, where there really is nothing to lose, his message is inconsistent and half hearted.

The messaging on the pandemic has turned to crap. The Goal should be to keep as many people safe and working as possible. If masks are the sacrifice we need to make its not so much to ask.

The exercise of freedom is always a exercise of setting boundaries. When it comes to health society tends towards the needs of the many over the needs of the few. Its part of the social contract. Why masks have become a issue of 'freedom' is beyond me and that Trump does not step in to clarify the need to get the economy up and going and how masks might help that is just another example of his poor leadership.

22
General Comments / Re: coronavirus
« on: July 16, 2020, 10:47:57 AM »
Quote
Georgia Gov. Brian Kemp is overruling local government mandates requiring people to wear masks in public to stop the spread of COVID-19, insisting that the state's less-stringent guidelines take precedence.
...
Georgia on Wednesday reported its second-highest new coronavirus case count to date, with 3,871 new confirmed cases and 37 COVID-19 deaths.

Wow, just wow. If he weren't sucking up to Trump it would be believable he's trying to make things worse for Trump.

It boggles the mind. I personally don't believe wearing a mask will protect me however it is proving to stop the more dangerous larger droplets when I cough which I think protects others. I've never been a great at the cough into my elbow timing. I also appropriate those serving me wearing a mask so it would be hypocritical of me to spit in their face.

If wearing a mask is what it takes to keep people working and feeling safe enough to start spending again then its really not that much to ask.   My G_d we are willing to sacrifice our children in wars and such but ware a mask that is to much. Shame on us all.

23
General Comments / Re: coronavirus
« on: July 16, 2020, 10:25:55 AM »
If we don't see it, it isn't happening.  We stopped paying attention older people suffering and dying long ago so staying in our happy place by looking away works.
If that changes and others demographic start suffering maybe we might have to take a look?

Watched that video of the anti-mask guy passionately telling his city counsel how he would die for that flag though he should wouldn't wear a mask for it. What happened to us

24
General Comments / Re: coronavirus
« on: July 16, 2020, 09:37:43 AM »
Things will get better soon now that the Trump administration is taking over the data collection on COVID-19.

25
General Comments / Re: covid-19 outside the US
« on: July 15, 2020, 03:51:56 PM »
Quote
In June, a judge closed a JBS plant in the remote Amazon town of São Miguel do Guaporé in the north-west of Brazil for the second time after infections rocketed. As of 25 June, 377 of the plant’s 940 employees were infected – then more than half of the town’s caseload, prosecutors said.

Leandro da Conceição, 33, one of the workers in the plant, said he lost his sense of smell and taste. When he told his supervisor, he was ignored and kept working even though he got sicker and sicker.

“It reached a point I couldn’t stand it any more. I told my superior I was not well,” he told the Guardian. “His focus was the cows, not the employees, it was production.”

Conceição was sent home after he produced his own positive test result. He and another worker later lost their jobs after a WhatsApp audio that featured them and other workers complaining about infections at the plant was published by local media. Both men were told falling production was the motive. “They had no reason to sack us,” he said. “I never missed work.”

Local labour prosecutor Helena Romero said: “We realised that the company was not carrying out containment measures, we observed that often workers kept working even though they had symptoms, and this could have contributed to spreading the illness.” The plant has since reopened.

não é bom

The laws surrounding sick leave are going to have to be updated.

I wonder if the workers have case to sue

26
General Comments / Re: coronavirus
« on: July 13, 2020, 11:35:18 AM »
A sobering thought (as if we there aren't enough of those already): Florida yesterday reported more than 15,000 new daily cases.

That number of new daily cases has only ever been exceeded by 3 countries: Brazil, India, and (obviously) the USA.  New York state never even came close (maxing out at about 11,000 new daily cases).

do we know the hospitalization and death rate in relationship to those numbers?
 

27
General Comments / Re: coronavirus
« on: July 13, 2020, 11:10:54 AM »
I ware a mask at the grocery store and a man waking by made the comment about protecting myself and being a wuss.
Sad as I was wearing the mask as I didn't want anyone becoming uncomfortable if I coughed or sneezed due to allergies.

Even after all this time people don't realize that you wear a mask to protect others not so much yourself.

28
General Comments / Re: Hamilton
« on: July 09, 2020, 05:00:17 PM »
Was watching a debate about the Writers that signed open letter criticizing 'ideological conformity,' cancel culture which kind of proved the writers point.
The argument against the letter was that the letter was it self a attempt to stop dialog.  Its not. you can disagree with the statements in the letter without being 'cancelled'
I can't however agree with the letter without fear of being 'canceled' as many of the augments against the letter were personally directed at some of the writers who had in the past express views that not everyone felt should be expressed. At the end of the debate the letter was dismissed - 'canceled' manly because of those past remarks of the writers who some argued should also be 'canceled' and nothing to do with the actual ideas as it concerns cancel culture.

I noted latter in the day that some of the signatories of the letter asked to have their names removed from the letter. cancer culture sadly works.

29
There's always a Tweet:
Quote
Donald J. Trump
@realDonaldTrump
I wonder when we will be able to
see @BarackObama's college and law
school applications and transcripts.
Why the long wait?

Excerpt from Mary Trump's book, Too Much and Never Enough: How My Family Created the World’s Most Dangerous Man:
Quote
[Donald Trump] enlisted a smart kid with a reputation for being a good test taker, to take his SATs for him. Donald, who never lacked for funds, paid his buddy well.

When Trump accuses others of such things its almost always a projection of something he himself has done

Wow! Projection of a projection. I guess the point you missed was about Obama's transcripts being hidden, while Trump has totally transparency.


I'm rubber and your glue the projection bounces off me and sticks to you... not take backs.  :P

30
General Comments / Re: coronavirus
« on: July 08, 2020, 04:29:07 PM »

I suspect even the Trump supporters that lose parents to covid wouldn't hold it against Trump

I think you need to be careful about assigning blame to Trump for this whole situation. Would another President have handled it better? Maybe. Some conservatives here have argued that Biden was saying even worse stuff originally re: travel ban, but let's leave off comparisons and talk about the situation in America. It's no secret that Americans basically hold in contempt 'passive' and 'obedient' populations, nanny states, and authoritarian Asian-style governments. All the ingredients that are needed for people to do what they're told and not deviate are anathema to the American mentality. The entire world knows that Americans are rebellious, willful, and even paranoid about being told what to do. I think "don't tell me what to do!!!" (with all three exclamation points) might be the most accurate slogan for the States. In some respects this is admirable and attracts praise, especially in regard to the American drive for success and freedom. But in other respects it's a giant spectacle of shame as the world listens to news report after news report of Americans failing to be able to do things of basic civic responsibility that would be a no-brainer in Sweden or South Korea. So there are pluses and minuses, and situations where the American mentality has benefits, and others where there are drawbacks. Any situation where you really need people to agree and help each other out in a general cause is going to be a big failure in America, especially right now. The exception is a major war, as all the paranoia makes everyone too scared to go against it.

It is our greatest strength, but also our greatest weakness. But also, a handful of certain other nations also has to be taking note of this and realizing that if our citizenry is more than willing to risk covid19 infection. That it is also reasonable to assume that America retains the ability to become every bit as scary as it has been in the past when it come to numerous other wars in the past. Covid19 still terrifies the CCP and much of the rest of the world, and in the mean time America is just responding to it with a shrug at this point.

I suspect the cost of lost service men and woman and the cost of losing older people due to covid would be assessed differently.

I don't think the public concern and response to the elderly dying due to covid would be the same as the loss of life of even a few service men.

31
...The great unifier...  wow..  I'm actually worried for you

No, you're probably not. You are just offended that the almighty rush to paint everything Trump does as diametrically opposed to what he really did or said is questioned. You cannot deny the low unemployment numbers nor the improvement of all minorities under his first three years. You ridicule him for pointing out that Leftwing agitators tear down statues of abolitionists.

It seems your ability to mind read needs work. I'm not offended and I do worry about any one that argues that Trump is the 'great unifier' and not seeing their own hypocrisy and projections.

I can understand why some people might support the Trump administrations policies but don't understand how anyone can defend the man methods as being unifying.
If Trump is 'the great unifier' the state of the union would indicate that he is failing badly.

32
...I do agree that Trump is fanning the flames of civil unrest, and seems to now be dependent on breaking apart the country in the hopes of getting re-elected.

You must not be following the news at all. Trump is the unifier. The old Obama regime and current Leftists and MSM are the dividers. It was Trump who corrected years of economic pain to minorities and actually did what he promised to help them. As the Leftists try to break apart the country, it is also them who act like Trump is the one doing it. Don't be part of the hypocrisy.

The great unifier...  wow..  I'm actually worried for you

33
"Is this what we see" and "have you seen any sign they were a problem?" are different questions.

Any answer to the question on the impact of the protests on the infection rate would require access to contact tracing data. I suspect the US infection rate is making contact tracing difficult to determine the source of flareup's so we might not ever know.


34
General Comments / Re: coronavirus
« on: July 08, 2020, 12:50:49 PM »

I suspect even the Trump supporters that lose parents to covid wouldn't hold it against Trump

I think you need to be careful about assigning blame to Trump for this whole situation. Would another President have handled it better? Maybe. Some conservatives here have argued that Biden was saying even worse stuff originally re: travel ban, but let's leave off comparisons and talk about the situation in America. It's no secret that Americans basically hold in contempt 'passive' and 'obedient' populations, nanny states, and authoritarian Asian-style governments. All the ingredients that are needed for people to do what they're told and not deviate are anathema to the American mentality. The entire world knows that Americans are rebellious, willful, and even paranoid about being told what to do. I think "don't tell me what to do!!!" (with all three exclamation points) might be the most accurate slogan for the States. In some respects this is admirable and attracts praise, especially in regard to the American drive for success and freedom. But in other respects it's a giant spectacle of shame as the world listens to news report after news report of Americans failing to be able to do things of basic civic responsibility that would be a no-brainer in Sweden or South Korea. So there are pluses and minuses, and situations where the American mentality has benefits, and others where there are drawbacks. Any situation where you really need people to agree and help each other out in a general cause is going to be a big failure in America, especially right now. The exception is a major war, as all the paranoia makes everyone too scared to go against it.

So you can blame Trump all you want, but all he is is the embodiment of "no one tells me what to do or think." If you think he's a problem, you may be right, but remember that he's just a mirror magnifying a general trend in the U.S. And I hope you don't think I'm being mean or anything, most people around the world have already thought this for like 30 years (or at least as far as I remember). He is *not* responsible for the entire country being a huge partisan crapfest, nor is he responsible for the sense of entitlement and disregard for authority that far predates him. *These* are the factors making it hard to accomplish anything in America regarding COVID, along with various political corruptions I suppose.

I wan't really thinking about blame  but that in general we tend to hold  leaders accountable even for things they have little control off.
I doubt that Trump followers will hold him accountable for his handling of the crises even if they are personalty affected. As it seems you would not. Trump could kill someone on 5th av and not be held accountable remains true regardless of the excuses.

Thus my point 'The goal is to convince Americans that they can live with the virus' is likely what the administration is going for.

Quote
He is *not* responsible for the entire country being a huge partisan crapfest, nor is he responsible for the sense of entitlement and disregard for authority that far predates him
.

Perhaps he is not "responsible" yet he most certainly uses the partisan crapfest to his advantage exasperating the problem. I doubt he vies the crapfest as a problem.

If someone see the crapfest as a problem yet continue to defend ans support the man who is exasperating it they are part of the problem. no?

If we don't ask for better then the crapfest we can't expect to get any better. I suspect if Biden handled the crises in a similar or worse manner you would let him off the hook

35
Quote
because it very much carries the connotation that the protests weren't really a significant health concern, despite some people trying to make it look like one

I didn't read "Is that what we see?" as suggesting the connotation you noted. Maybe I'm missing something.

36
General Comments / Re: coronavirus
« on: July 08, 2020, 12:04:35 PM »
Citing three unnamed sources within the administration, the WaPo reported the following:
Quote
The goal is to convince Americans that they can live with the virus… White House officials also hope Americans will grow numb to the escalating death toll and learn to accept tens of thousands of new cases a day, according to three people familiar with the White House’s thinking, who requested anonymity to reveal internal deliberations. Americans will ‘live with the virus being a threat,’ in the words of one of those people, a senior administration official.

Seems obvious to me that Trump is trying to get that message across. 

Might work as long as the majority of those hospitalization and dying continue to be older population. 
I suspect even the Trump supporters that lose parents to covid wouldn't hold it against Trump

37
There's always a Tweet:
Quote
Donald J. Trump
@realDonaldTrump
I wonder when we will be able to
see @BarackObama's college and law
school applications and transcripts.
Why the long wait?

Excerpt from Mary Trump's book, Too Much and Never Enough: How My Family Created the World’s Most Dangerous Man:
Quote
[Donald Trump] enlisted a smart kid with a reputation for being a good test taker, to take his SATs for him. Donald, who never lacked for funds, paid his buddy well.

When Trump accuses others of such things its almost always a projection of something he him self has done

38
For instance
  • Illinois - lots of large protests.  Continuing decrease in cases.
  • Minnesota - new cases dropped to a plateau, then remained steady
  • New York - steady decrease
  • Pennsylvania - steady decrease, to a base level
Huge protests in those states, yet no increase in cases coincident with the protests... hmmm...

I noted that in much of the footage of the protests masks were prevent where as in the partying gatherings much more indoor activity and face to face interactions. 

My observations is that its close interactions + indoors = higher risk of infection.

39

2015
Q: You are the lone Republican presidential candidate who has yet to weigh in on whether or not you think the confederate flag should be flying above the state house in South Carolina.  Do you think it needs to go?
Trump: I think it probably does, and I think they should put it in the museum.  Let it go - respect whatever it is that you have to respect because it was a point in time and put it in a museum. But I would take it down, yes.

2020
“Has @BubbaWallace apologized to all of those great NASCAR drivers & officials who came to his aid, stood by his side, & were willing to sacrifice everything for him, only to find out that the whole thing was just another HOAX? That & Flag decision has caused lowest ratings EVER!"

Trump never means what he says but says what he means. Another statement to spin the narrative away from the poor leadership narrative. Of course this go to  is just another example of his poor leadership skills but it works to keep his followers inline and fired up. 

40
I think you'll find that a President who presided over widespread rioting and a plague and did precious little to stop either is going to fare poorly in an election.

I'm not so sure. If the death rate doesn't rise with the increase in cases of covid-19 he might wiggle his way out of his poor leadership (it wasn't leadership that many who voted for him and continue to support him care about) 
I might have added hospital being overwhelmed as being a determining factor but I don't thing Trumps core followers will care about that... unless at a individual level they are personally impacted

41
Quote
In general the reasons are within the definition of the labels of liberal and conservative. Conservatism a  commitment to traditional values and ideas with opposition to change or innovation. = want to change you don't belong.

That said when people take the time to detach from such labels as being 'all or nothing' 'either or' they might see that they hold views some of which are conservative and some of which are liberal and most somewhere in between. Its the politicization and attachment of identity to one or two extreme views that creates the problems.

Really we are all quite stupid as I'm sure we will make the same mistakes made through out history and cut of our nose to spite our face.

42
I'm seeing more and more "America, love it or leave it" messages in social media. You can love your country and criticize it all at the same time. I never see liberals suggest that conservatives leave if they don't like a policy or criticize a problem. OH, you're mad at Obama? Nobody suggested those people should just leave. Why do you think there's a tendency for people with a conservative viewpoint to tell people they don't agree with to just leave? Oh, you don't like the mainstream media, well just leave then! Doesn't happen.

In general the reasons are within the definition of the labels of liberal and conservative. Conservatism a  commitment to traditional values and ideas with opposition to change or innovation. = want to change you don't belong.

43
General Comments / Re: coronavirus
« on: June 30, 2020, 02:51:35 PM »
Of the goal is to keep people as safe as possible while opening up the economy wearing a mask is the least we can do.

I understand the reflex, I really do. But the science just doesn't support masks being effective out in public the way people want to believe they are. Here's about a minute on how even N95 masks don't work to filter out something as small as a C19 virus particle.

Most of the masks being worn by the faithful are not nearly as fine as the N95. Any covering will stop spit from flying, so if that's the main point being made, great. The broader point, you know, actually preventing the virus from being airborne in general, is not supported by masks

https://twitter.com/jcho710/status/1273924949162340353

I understand the reflex but it dons't matter. Society does all kinds of things that don't make much difference to give them the illusion of being safe.
If the majority of people feel safer wearing a mask and that gets them back to work.  Lets do it.

That said much of the C19 virus droplets are being stopped by coughing into the elbow and or wearing a mask. As the larger droplets is the most likely method of coming into contact with C19 and getting infected masks makes sense.

Percentage wise the number of people infected due to contaminated surfaces is small as is the aerosolization of the virus. The data also shows that countries where wearing the masks is prevalent the infection rate is much lower. Coincidence maybe but as these countries economies also show more improvement I would again argue what have we to lose.



44
General Comments / Re: coronavirus
« on: June 30, 2020, 01:33:47 PM »
The mask acts as a better method then coughing into ones elbow though perhaps you wan't to do both to protect others. 
The mask would also limit the distance droplets fly

Of the goal is to keep people as safe as possible while opening up the economy wearing a mask is the least we can do.
If Trump really cared about opening up the economy he wouldn't have contributed to the politicization of mask wearing.

45
I have never heard anyone define racism in such a way that it would include themselves.  At least not often.
By such definitions racism is always something that we and those we support are not.

In dealing with racism we look to individuals, fix the individuals and we fix racism. Fix the bad apples and we fix the system. Only its not working perhaps because by focusing on the individual, which is never us, we fail to adders the racism and inequality within the system itself. A system that often protects the bad actors even when it doesn't want to.

I like the idea of Ibram X to focus on being 'antiracist'

Quote
"To be antiracist is to think nothing is behaviorally wrong or right -- inferior or superior -- with any of the racial groups. Whenever the antiracist sees individuals behaving positively or negatively, the antiracist sees exactly that: individuals behaving positively or negatively, not representatives of whole races. To be antiracist is to deracialize behavior, to remove the tattooed stereotype from every radicalized body. Behavior is something humans do, not races do."

Becoming antiracist requires every individual to choose every day to think, act and advocate for equality, which will require changing systems and policies that may have gone unexamined for a long time.

When a person fails to be anti-racist it is a failing that doesn't require the stigmatization of the individual as 'being' racist. The intention is left open to lean better. And learning better do better.

Quote
For Kendi, there’s no middle ground. Actions, ideas and policies are either racist or not. He points to the fact that racist has a dictionary definition, one that should be applied evenly to anyone, of any race, who expresses racist ideas or who supports racist policies.

He contends that white supremacists have won the rhetorical battle by successfully positioning the term “racist” as a personal attack, that being racist makes you a bad person.

“We should not be saying this is who a person is,” Kendi said. “We should be saying this is what a person is doing in the moment. And the reason that’s critical is because when you study the history of racist ideas and antiracist ideas, you find the same person saying both racist and antiracist ideas in the same book, in the same speech, in the same article. So then, how would you define that person in a general sense?”


The question of Trump is if he is open to learning and doing better in the process of anti-racism?

46
Quote
And yet Trump is somehow racist as he goes about creating new initiatives to help black schools and other black organizations get more support in providing more and better educational opportunities for minorities.

His words may sometimes indicate one thing, but what he's actually doing is saying another thing entirely.

Most people are not either or. One can be at times racist and or anti-racist.   As president it can be argued that Trump is systemic to the problem of racism even if it a matter of  ignorance.  (ignorance the worse type of systemic racism and is unacceptable for a Leader) If he is  blind to the impact of his words, though those words may not define his character as racist, he remains part of the systemic problem no matter how many 'black schools' he builds.

Quote
What I cannot agree with was the earlier assertion that the tweet "proved Trump is racist."

 A current argument is that their is no middle ground between racist and anit-racist and that these labels are not to be applied to as 'being the person' (we are more then a single attribute/label). The question we are being ask to ask ourselves when confronted with issues and such is if our words, stance, etc is equally inclusive to all (anti-raciest) or not. If we are honest with ourselves we will find that we tend to the system status quo - not being anti-racist. As their is no other option in the argument, in regard to the specific issue we are being racist.  As to our responsibility to the system we are part of the problem or part of the solution.

47
Quote
As to the video being proof that Trump is a racist. I'd say the only thing it proves is that Trump is indifferent on the matter of racial issues, especially as it relates to words. It would also be in keeping with his general approach and attitude of words being cheap and even meaningless in most cases(unless they involve him somehow). It's the actions and results he's more interested in.

And his actions, and his results still don't indicate any meaningful inclination towards racism. (Twitter falls under "words" not actions)

As a leader I think the standards must be set higher then that.

In the current dialog about racism and systemic racism the idea that we each must address the issue personally (who we are) we must also look how positions and policies we support, allow and or look away from... impact the whole

The words of a leader matter, that they have impact on the system. Trump as a leader does not get left off the hook because his words can prove him being or not being this or that but as a important role within the system and systemic of that system he carries a huge responsibility. 

Ignorantly retweeting something that dons't reflect his 'nature' or cannot be proved to reflect his nature or beliefs can not be a excuse.

48
General Comments / Re: coronavirus
« on: June 29, 2020, 12:25:24 PM »
Current technology has undone Darwin as the understanding of 'fittest' is constantly in transition and less about a person intelligence and fitness and more about the teck they have access to. 

Quote
“Survivors aren't always the strongest; sometimes they're the smartest, but more often simply the luckiest.” ― Carrie Ryan


Quote
“With savages, the weak in body or mind are soon eliminated; and those that survive commonly exhibit a vigorous state of health. We civilised men, on the other hand, do our utmost to check the process of elimination; we build asylums for the imbecile, the maimed, and the sick; we institute poor-laws; and our medical men exert their utmost skill to save the life of every one to the last moment. There is reason to believe that vaccination has preserved thousands, who from a weak constitution would formerly have succumbed to small-pox. Thus the weak members of civilised societies propagate their kind. No one who has attended to the breeding of domestic animals will doubt that this must be highly injurious to the race of man. It is surprising how soon a want of care, or care wrongly directed, leads to the degeneration of a domestic race; but excepting in the case of man himself, hardly any one is so ignorant as to allow his worst animals to breed.

The aid which we feel impelled to give to the helpless is mainly an incidental result of the instinct of sympathy, which was originally acquired as part of the social instincts, but subsequently rendered, in the manner previously indicated, more tender and more widely diffused. Nor could we check our sympathy, if so urged by hard reason, without deterioration in the noblest part of our nature. The surgeon may harden himself whilst performing an operation, for he knows that he is acting for the good of his patient; but if we were intentionally to neglect the weak and helpless, it could only be for a contingent benefit, with a certain and great present evil. Hence we must bear without complaining the undoubtedly bad effects of the weak surviving and propagating their kind ; but there appears to be at least one check in steady action, namely the weaker and inferior members of society not marrying so freely as the sound; and this check might be indefinitely increased, though this is more to be hoped for than expected, by the weak in body or mind refraining from marriage.”
― Charles Darwin, The Descent of Man

49
Quote
High probability the guy was being sarcastic/ironic in his usage. Not even going to try to guess what Trump was thinking in sharing the video. Chances are good he probably didn't even watch the full thing, so he wasn't even aware of how it concluded.

The intention of the guy is not relevant to the issue of the President retweeting content. As President perhaps he deserves the benefit of the doubt the first time or two if however there emerges a pattern I think it fair to call a club a club. 

At this point its a question of leadership and what that leadership is leading to, or should be.

50
Trump has always shown his true nature - Sadly it will only be history that wonder's how so many never saw it

Quote
On her way to work one morning
Down the path alongside the lake
A tender-hearted woman saw a poor half-frozen snake
His pretty colored skin had been all frosted with the dew
“Oh well,” she cried, “I'll take you in and I'll take care of you”
“Take me in oh tender woman
Take me in, for heaven's sake
Take me in oh tender woman,” sighed the snake
She wrapped him up all cozy in a curvature of silk
And then laid him by the fireside with some honey and some milk
Now she hurried home from work that night as soon as she arrived
She found that pretty snake she'd taken in had been revived
“Take me in, oh tender woman
Take me in, for heaven's sake
Take me in oh tender woman,” sighed the snake
Now she clutched him to her bosom, “You're so beautiful,” she cried
“But if I hadn't brought you in by now you might have died”
Now she stroked his pretty skin and then she kissed and held him tight
But instead of saying thanks, that snake gave her a vicious bite
“Take me in, oh tender woman
Take me in, for heaven's sake
Take me in oh tender woman,” sighed the snake
“I saved you,” cried that woman
“And you've bit me even, why?
You know your bite is poisonous and now I'm going to die”
“Oh shut up, silly woman,” said the reptile with a grin
“You knew damn well I was a snake before you took me in
”Take me in, oh tender woman
Take me in, for heaven's sake
Take me in oh tender woman,“ sighed the snake

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