Author Topic: So will you take the vaccine?  (Read 15833 times)

msquared

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So will you take the vaccine?
« on: December 27, 2020, 08:29:16 AM »
Yes when it is my turn.  Which I expect will be late spring/early summer.

I expect my youngest son, who works as a pharmacy tech at a children's hospital to get it next month.  He is not front line, but does have to go to the wards (the children's hospital is running an over flow ward for the main hospital, so there are Covid patients there at times).

LetterRip

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2020, 09:41:06 AM »
Yep - I'm likely same time frame as you or later.

Mynnion

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2020, 10:08:41 AM »
Absolutely.  I lost one elderly friend and have another in critical condition.  Other friends have spent time in the hospital one on a vent for two months.  I am not as concerned about my own health as that of my wife and mother.  I also believe anyone who can should get it to increase herd immunity.  The sooner the better.

Seriati

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2020, 02:44:54 PM »
Yes, but I won't be a priority recipient. 

TheDrake

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2020, 07:46:15 PM »
Give me all the vaccines. We still have a prayer to shut this down before the virus mutates beyond controlling.

yossarian22c

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2020, 09:41:01 AM »
Yes, as soon as I'm available to take it. Phase 2 or general population depending on how they classify people with underlying health conditions.

JoshuaD

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2020, 03:20:21 PM »
Absolutely not. This thing isn't tested enough.

TheDeamon

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2020, 09:21:48 PM »
I'm in the wait and see camp, but as I'm pretty much at the back of the line for getting the shot at present anyway.. It's probably rather moot.

DonaldD

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2020, 11:10:55 PM »
There have already been millions of vaccine doses administered and there have only been trivial numbers of adverse responses primarily allergic reactions by those who have allergy issues.

By the time anyone here has access to to any of the vaccines there will likely have been tens if not hundreds of millions of doses already administered.

Contrast that with, as of today, in the United States, more than one person in 1,000 have already died from the virus. So, millions of doses of vaccine, negligible numbers of serious side effects or deaths, as opposed to a total death rate of significantly more than one in 1000.

This is a no-brainer, from a purely selfish perspective, but also from a societal perspective

JoshuaD

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2020, 02:57:24 PM »
There have already been millions of vaccine doses administered and there have only been trivial numbers of adverse responses primarily allergic reactions by those who have allergy issues.

By the time anyone here has access to to any of the vaccines there will likely have been tens if not hundreds of millions of doses already administered.

Great, so we have tested it reasonably wide for any consequences after two weeks, and tested it narrowly for consequences going out to a few months. I hope for everyone's sake that there's no big side effect lurking two years or fifty years down the road.  I know I don't want to be the guinea pig.

Contrast that with, as of today, in the United States, more than one person in 1,000 have already died from the virus. So, millions of doses of vaccine, negligible numbers of serious side effects or deaths, as opposed to a total death rate of significantly more than one in 1000.

This is a no-brainer, from a purely selfish perspective, but also from a societal perspective.

There are people for whom taking the vaccine makes sense, I agree.  My father is over 80 years old and he wants to take it so he can go back to living a normal life. I think that's a fine decision.

I'm 36 and I'm healthy; I'm not overly worried about dying from COVID. The world is dangerous, and this is another dangerous thing in the world.  I don't like the idea of losing my sense of taste or having long term reduced lung capacity, so I wear a mask at grocery stores and I wash my hands. That being said, I'm not willing to stop having family get-togethers. My nieces and nephew are aged four through ten. There are only so many Chirstmases left while they're still kids. I'll take a little risk to keep those.

Similarly, when I weigh the benefits for myself of the COVID vaccine against the risks, I don't think it adds up in the vaccine's favor. There are unquantified risks in taking that vaccine.  Maybe they won't ever manifest. Maybe the thing is perfectly safe. Or maybe it causes a significant increase in cancer down the road, or (as my girlfriend who has a doctorate in immunology and follows the medical literature on COVID says) maybe the vaccine could make future infections of COVID more harmful. Time will tell, and I hope to be wrong, but I know I'm not going blindly down that road.

msquared

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2020, 03:19:12 PM »
Josh

How long do you want to wait for long term side effects to show up?  I mean you mention 50 years, but 50 years ago I got the polio vaccine.  Should we have waited for that?

JoshuaD

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2020, 03:55:42 PM »
We did wait for that one. We made the first vaccine in 1935, we waited 20 years until ~1955 to mass inoculate, and we still saw serious consequences (paralysis and death) as we rolled it out. We didn't arrive at the modern vaccine until 1987, and we effectively eradicated polio in the 1990's. 

I don't know an exact timeline for the COVID vaccine. We've gotten a lot better at these things, so I think it'll be faster than the 50 years it took with Polio.  I know I would be against taking the polio vaccine in 1935, and I'm similarly against taking the COVID vaccine in 2020.




DonaldD

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2020, 05:28:29 PM »
What that analysis ignores is that the medium and long term effects of Covid-19 infections are also unknown - and there is no evidence that those long term effects for the afflicted will be less damaging then the also unknown negative effects of the vaccines to those so-afflicted.

But what we do know is that the negative effects of infection are far worse in the immediate and short term than those of the vaccines in production.  And we also know the risks involved in reducing levels of herd immunity inherent in large portions of the population being vaccine-hesitant.

To make an honest comparison, you would need to analyze:
  • A. The short term effects of COVID-19 infections
  • B. Medium term COVID effects
  • C. Long term COVID effects
and contrast those to:
  • 1. The short term effects of taking one of the vaccines
  • 2. Medium term vaccine effects
  • 3. Long term vaccine effects
We really only have a good grasp on A and 1, and A would seem to be far worse for all segments of the population than 1 (yes, even for young, healthy people).

For B, there is growing evidence, and that evidence suggests there are pretty frequent, and serious, chronic effects of infection for all segments of the population.  The vaccines would need to have some pretty spectacularly bad side effects, and would need to be experienced by a significant proportion of the people taking the vaccines, for the vaccines to cause damage in even the same order of magnitude as the virus.

For C, and for 3, there is simply no data.  But worrying that 3 is worse than C is just not supported by any logical reasoning.



DJQuag

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2020, 06:08:32 PM »
Let's be honest about what this thread is.

This thread is nothing but bait to try and bring out those among use who are perfectly willing to go tell the rest of us, and our grandmothers to boot, to just go *censored* themselves.

*I'm* healthy so *I* could never fall victim to such a low class disease. Not my family either!

Blah blah blah. Maybe a handful of people have an allegeric reaction. Meanwhile as others have pointed out 1/1000 Americans have already died from this virus. You need to choose where you stand because this is something people will remember.

Measles, rubella, polio. "Crazy" people ended up out there saying they'd solved the whole thing and every freaking time there was the one guy hanging back, "It's not been tested properly!"

Except of course said pandemic killer had been tested and approved.

Grant

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #14 on: December 30, 2020, 07:09:45 PM »
Yes.  ASAP. 

NobleHunter

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #15 on: December 30, 2020, 07:11:31 PM »
I think the risk analysis should include harm to other people. If all "low risk" people decide not to get the vaccine then high risk people who can't get the vaccine will remain at risk. Not to mention that inadequate take up of the vaccine increases the risk of mutations.

I'm going to get it as soon as they let me. I even scored a flu shot before the supply went tits up.

DonaldD

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #16 on: December 31, 2020, 08:24:15 AM »
I think the risk analysis should include harm to other people.

I agree - but JoshuaD's stated argument was based exclusively on personal benefit.

What also almost always goes unmentioned in these analyses of personal safety is the economic effects: if significant numbers of people refuse vaccination, and the effects of COVID-19 are prolonged unnecessarily, then the drag on the economy will also be extended... more people out of work, more business closers than otherwise and a slower recovery in general.

msquared

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #17 on: June 17, 2021, 10:27:43 AM »
Ok so I guess lets bring this back up.

How many here have been vaccinated?  Any serious side effects from the vaccine?

I was vaccinated back in mid March. Mild side effects from the first Pfizer does ( I had Covid in early Jan). No side effects from the second shot.

yossarian22c

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #18 on: June 17, 2021, 10:36:30 AM »
I got vaccinated with Moderna first shot late March, no side effects. Second shot late April, minor side effects of fatigue, low fever, starting 12 hours after the shot and ending about 30 hours after the shot.

LetterRip

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #19 on: June 17, 2021, 10:37:23 AM »
I got the Pfizer awhile ago.  First shot mild arm soreness.  Second shot slept all day and mild body ache.

Lloyd Perna

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #20 on: June 17, 2021, 10:52:40 AM »
I got Moderna,  Had both doses, no side effects that I noticed.

rightleft22

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #21 on: June 17, 2021, 10:56:19 AM »
First shot was the Astrazeneca with no side affects
The second shot will be next week and it looks like it will be Pfizer... I fully expect to grow a tail, maybe it will help with my jump shot.

Wayward Son

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #22 on: June 17, 2021, 10:58:21 AM »
My wife and I got our second vaccines in late April.  My wife got the Moderna vaccine, and had a miserable 102 degree fever the next day.  Fortunately she was pretty much back to normal the day after.

I got the Pfizer vaccine and had a little soreness in the arm that day.  But the next day my other arm was a bit sore, too.  :)

Did I mention that my wife hates me sometimes?  ;D

msquared

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #23 on: June 17, 2021, 11:00:41 AM »
Don't blame her.  :)

Carry on.

TheDrake

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #24 on: June 17, 2021, 12:27:12 PM »
Moderna x 2

Almost no side effects. A little difficulty concentrating for an hour or two.

Fenring

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #25 on: June 17, 2021, 01:04:33 PM »
Pfiser 1st dose only so far, zero side effects, not even a pain in my arm. And I'm the kind of guy who took a flu shot last winter and felt like my arm was hit by a bat for three days.

Well, ok, the day after I took the 1st dose I was tired to the point of near-unconsciousness...buuut I had also started the keto diet the day before, so let's just say that confounds the results just a teeny bit, since keto is notorious for having extreme fatigue be a short term effect of starting. Personally I attribute the side effect to keto, not Pfiser.

Lloyd Perna

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #26 on: June 17, 2021, 01:38:32 PM »
My Wife and I have been considering trying Keto. What has your experience been with it so far?  Hard to adapt?  Weight loss success?  Ease of Implementation?

TheDrake

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #27 on: June 17, 2021, 01:43:38 PM »
hit by a bat for three days.

Okay the first time I read this, I pictured the flying mammal.  :o

Fenring

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #28 on: June 17, 2021, 02:52:12 PM »
My Wife and I have been considering trying Keto. What has your experience been with it so far?  Hard to adapt?  Weight loss success?  Ease of Implementation?

What I can say of it is that I'm not the best spokesperson since I modified what the diet is to suit my own ends. For instance keto doesn't allow milk (due to lactose content) but I wanted to keep it in my diet for calcium and D. It also recommends 75% of calories to come from fat, which no matter where the science points these days freaks me out. I'm not going to deliberately eat fatty food just for the heck of it. So I eat  more protein as a proportion of my diet than keto recommends also. Plus I do a cheat day once a week just to mix it up.

That being said, you'd be surprised how easy it gets to have practically zero carbs through much of the day. For instance the other day I had eggs and meat for breakfast, a keto bar and cashew milk midday with a few berries, and by dinner (another meat meal, so at time I verge on the carnivore diet) I actually said, hm, I've barely had any carbs at all, better go get an ice cream or something  :D  Also, getting off the blood-sugar mayhem with these hunger cravings is excellent. You feel hungry, but not suddenly desperate for food like you would a few hours after having pizza.

As far weight loss there is another compounding factor, because I have pretty serious tendonitis in my Achilles tendon, which at first rendered me almost incapacitated. Now I can go for walks and do some biking finally, but it's a slow slog back into being able to do stuff pain-free. So my regular amount of physical activity is just not there. As a result my fitness level is in a holding pattern until I get back to multi cardio workouts a week. That being said, I might well be worse off had I been on a normal carbtistic diet, but that's counterfactual so moot.

The worse is the first week. If you can do that you're ok. But I wouldn't recommend it for long-term, it's a 1-3 month thing at a time. As I understand it, otherwise you put too much pressure on your liver synthesizing glucose from your glycogen all the time.

Fenring

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #29 on: June 17, 2021, 02:53:19 PM »
hit by a bat for three days.

Okay the first time I read this, I pictured the flying mammal.  :o

Batter up!

(when you read that, did you think of rolling around in bread crumbs? :) )

TheDrake

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #30 on: June 17, 2021, 03:07:59 PM »
Most of the people I know who had covid took the vaccine as well. But I could see someone rational thinking that if they already got it, they have the antibodies, so why bother? The picture might be rosier if we totalled up the number of people unvaccinated who already had covid. I know the advice is to get it for more protection, but repeat infections have been rare as far as I know, somewhere in the realm of vaccination?

Quote
An early study by Public Health England, indicated
that antibodies provide 83% protection against
covid-19 reinfections over a five month period. Out
of 6614 participants, 44 had “possible” or “probable”
reinfections.2

yossarian22c

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #31 on: June 17, 2021, 03:12:32 PM »
Most of the people I know who had covid took the vaccine as well. But I could see someone rational thinking that if they already got it, they have the antibodies, so why bother? The picture might be rosier if we totalled up the number of people unvaccinated who already had covid. I know the advice is to get it for more protection, but repeat infections have been rare as far as I know, somewhere in the realm of vaccination?

Quote
An early study by Public Health England, indicated
that antibodies provide 83% protection against
covid-19 reinfections over a five month period. Out
of 6614 participants, 44 had “possible” or “probable”
reinfections.2

I've read stories were antidotally people some people with "long covid" were helped by getting the vaccine. So depends on the person. Right now I'm just waiting for the 6-11 range to become eligible so my kids can join in being safely vaccinated. Crossing my fingers for the start of the school year.

edgmatt

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #32 on: June 17, 2021, 11:40:09 PM »
No I will not take the shot because:

- I don't need it.  I am healthy, young, and fit.  I don't need it the same way I don't need blood thinners or an inhaler. (More on this below)
- All the reasons already mentioned by other people on this thread about unknown side effects and being guinea pigs.
- I had corona.  So now I have "better than" the vaccine running through my blood.

Every single thing we put in or on our bodies has an effect, a side effect, or a tradeoff.  Every thing. 

When I eat protein, that makes one part of my body work harder, when I don't eat protein that effects other parts of my body working.

When you take a Tylenol for a headache, that puts stress on one organ, when it's Advil it's another organ.

Drinking too much water or not enough water has an adverse effect on human bodily functions.

Every single medication and medicine in the world has side effects.

There is absolutely ZERO percent chance that this vaccine has NO other effect on our systems.  The question is:  Is the trade off worth it?

Well for me, it doesn't seem to be.  Why would I risk....whatever the risk is since we don't know, instead of the risk of the corona (which I already had) which doesn't seem likely to seriously adversely affect people like me (as described above)?

All that aside, I don't understand the push for others to get the shot if: the only people who will be at risk are the people who choose not to get it and are willing to take the risk.  If you are protected by the shot, what's it to you?


edgmatt

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #33 on: June 17, 2021, 11:44:47 PM »
Quote
What also almost always goes unmentioned in these analyses of personal safety is the economic effects: if significant numbers of people refuse vaccination, and the effects of COVID-19 are prolonged unnecessarily, then the drag on the economy will also be extended... more people out of work, more business closers than otherwise and a slower recovery in general.

It doesn't have to be that way.  Just open everything up.  (The virus itself isn't what's holding things up, only the people "in charge".  They make the rules, not the virus.)  If only the people who refuse to take the shot are left, then they are the only ones at risk, and they have made clear that they are willing to take the risk.

TheDeamon

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #34 on: June 18, 2021, 12:09:59 AM »
Quote
What also almost always goes unmentioned in these analyses of personal safety is the economic effects: if significant numbers of people refuse vaccination, and the effects of COVID-19 are prolonged unnecessarily, then the drag on the economy will also be extended... more people out of work, more business closers than otherwise and a slower recovery in general.

It doesn't have to be that way.  Just open everything up.  (The virus itself isn't what's holding things up, only the people "in charge".  They make the rules, not the virus.)  If only the people who refuse to take the shot are left, then they are the only ones at risk, and they have made clear that they are willing to take the risk.

Except...You have a large number of people with auto-immune and other associated issues who have valid medical reasons to be cautious about being vaccinated, although they potentially have the option of limiting social contact with other non-vaccinated persons who move about freely in public.

TheDeamon

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #35 on: June 18, 2021, 12:11:00 AM »
Had two doses of the Pfizer vaccine myself. Brief fever for about half-a-day on the second shot, and some fatigue to go with it. Fine otherwise.

fizz

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #36 on: June 18, 2021, 04:44:50 AM »
I had the Pfizer, first and second dose. Had only some mild pain on the injection site as side effects... maybe also a bit more tired, but may be it was all in my head.

My mother was the same. My partner the same. *Her* brother and parents had some fever and were knocked out by it the day after, but it went as quickly as it came.

My brother had covid, so now he's waiting for his single shot of vaccine (having had covid is only a mild coverage, it seems, in fact even if they are not common, there are people like a colleague of my partner that had covid *3* different times already... all of them mild, but still felt. Public government guidelines here is that you have a 6 months "green" flag after recovering from covid, while a 9 months after the second vaccine shot, or first if you also had covid).

My dad is a no-vax conspiracy theorist, so for him I've to cross fingers and hope: this covid thing have been bad for his mental status, sending him a bit over the edge.. my mom tells me he's at the point of haranguing random people that he meets while shopping or doing anything... and of course refuses masks, and if obliged to wear them, he wears them wrongly on purpose... sigh.


msquared

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #37 on: June 18, 2021, 08:04:45 AM »
Matt
So are you against all vaccines?  Or just this one? Becuase the side effects that members here have listed have ranged from none to mild at worst for a day or so.

300 million people in the US alone have been vaccinated with very few serious side effects.  Covid cases are down over 90% since the high and deaths are down as much as well.

I have never heard that the protection you get from having Covid is better than the vaccine.  I have read that the combination of Covid protection and the vaccine is better then the other two by themselves.


edgmatt

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #38 on: June 18, 2021, 08:20:43 AM »
As an aside, this isn't a vaccine, but whatever....everyone is calling it that so...

But no I am not against all vaccines.

We don't know what all the side effects are yet.  We won't know what they are, or if there are any, for years if not decades.

Quote
Except...You have a large number of people with auto-immune and other associated issues who have valid medical reasons to be cautious about being vaccinated,

What's the number of people like this?

msquared

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #39 on: June 18, 2021, 08:33:29 AM »
If it is not a vaccine what is it?

edgmatt

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #40 on: June 18, 2021, 09:14:53 AM »


Definition of vaccine first.

Then just recognize that this covid shot doesn't do this.  It doesn't make your system create antibodies and it doesn't make you immune to the virus.

I don't know EXACTLY what the covid shot does, but from what I've read, it puts your system on alert, so to speak, for the covid.  So if you do get it, your body can fight it better, and you get less effect from the symptoms, which is life saving in many instances.

But it's not a vaccine.

LetterRip

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #41 on: June 18, 2021, 10:37:18 AM »
What do you think isn't a vaccine?

Pfizer Moderna etc are all vaccines.  They aren't the same as historical vaccines in that the protein that antibodies form against is made by the host rna rather than being present at the site of injection.  But once the spike protein is made, it triggers creation of antibodies etc.

They are better than historical vaccines since what antibodies are created are narrowly targeted.  In live attenuated or deactivated virus vaccines any protein of the virus might be targeted by antibodies - many of which might not be useful against variants of the virus.

edgmatt

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #42 on: June 18, 2021, 03:23:07 PM »
It's not about what I "think" is a vaccine.  I'm reading the definition, from the CDC website (link above) and seeing that the covid shot doesn't fit the definition.

Does the Covid shot:

- contain the same germs that cause the disease? (No, as far as everything I have read)
- Have these germs been weakened or killed? (no, same as above)
- Does it stimulate your immune system to produce antibodies (according to you, yes it does)
- Does one become immune to the disease after getting injected?  (No)

I'm not saying this shot is a worse or better thing than a vaccine. I'm just saying it isn't a vaccine, according to the definition given by the CDC.


LetterRip

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #43 on: June 18, 2021, 03:32:02 PM »
CDC isn't the source for what a vaccine is.  They had someone write up that article and the person did a poor job.

Also no vaccine makes people immune - it simply reduces odds of catching the disease.  Typical efficacies are 50-80%.  Pfizer and Moderna are much better than typical.

DJQuag

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #44 on: June 18, 2021, 03:55:15 PM »
My Wife and I have been considering trying Keto. What has your experience been with it so far?  Hard to adapt?  Weight loss success?  Ease of Implementation?

What I can say of it is that I'm not the best spokesperson since I modified what the diet is to suit my own ends. For instance keto doesn't allow milk (due to lactose content) but I wanted to keep it in my diet for calcium and D. It also recommends 75% of calories to come from fat, which no matter where the science points these days freaks me out. I'm not going to deliberately eat fatty food just for the heck of it. So I eat  more protein as a proportion of my diet than keto recommends also. Plus I do a cheat day once a week just to mix it up.

That being said, you'd be surprised how easy it gets to have practically zero carbs through much of the day. For instance the other day I had eggs and meat for breakfast, a keto bar and cashew milk midday with a few berries, and by dinner (another meat meal, so at time I verge on the carnivore diet) I actually said, hm, I've barely had any carbs at all, better go get an ice cream or something  :D  Also, getting off the blood-sugar mayhem with these hunger cravings is excellent. You feel hungry, but not suddenly desperate for food like you would a few hours after having pizza.

As far weight loss there is another compounding factor, because I have pretty serious tendonitis in my Achilles tendon, which at first rendered me almost incapacitated. Now I can go for walks and do some biking finally, but it's a slow slog back into being able to do stuff pain-free. So my regular amount of physical activity is just not there. As a result my fitness level is in a holding pattern until I get back to multi cardio workouts a week. That being said, I might well be worse off had I been on a normal carbtistic diet, but that's counterfactual so moot.

The worse is the first week. If you can do that you're ok. But I wouldn't recommend it for long-term, it's a 1-3 month thing at a time. As I understand it, otherwise you put too much pressure on your liver synthesizing glucose from your glycogen all the time.

A ketoacidioc diet is based upon the idea that when you starve yourself you lose weight. Taking science into account, and being very careful, it can be successful.

Most all cells in the the human body depend on energy to run. Most all cells will do fine, but without complex or simple carbohydrates, nerve cells will do not.




 Yes, all of your muscle or bone or tendons can run off of your fat. Those formally named cells? They can and often do have a very bad time if their own specific metabolism isn't being run by DJ Carbohydrate.

What you need to do is to train you body off if what's it's been running off of. Which is both simple and complex carbohydrates. When most of the body is used to running off of that and then all of a sudden it's not there, the body freaks out and starts running off of stored fat content. As an emergency measure.

So the diet is, you cut your body off of almost all carbohydrates. Almost all, because even the most extreme ones acknowledge that your brain still needs fuel. Your brain and nerve cells will straight up starve to death if you try giving them only fats and proteins. Look up ketoacidosis on wiki if you don't believe me. Run your metabolism and muscles off of protein. It's certainly possible. If you can actually stick to it? It'll work, guaranteed. Only to an extent, though.

Anyone with anorexic tendencies, or people who might not understand the concempt? Bad complications are on their way.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2021, 03:57:19 PM by DJQuag »

DJQuag

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #45 on: June 18, 2021, 04:00:10 PM »
If you're running on less then 30g carbs a day then you're running off of the ultrapure liver stored glucagon. Which is a finite resource. Please don't ever advise again that people don't have carbs.

Fenring

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #46 on: June 18, 2021, 05:18:19 PM »
If you're running on less then 30g carbs a day then you're running off of the ultrapure liver stored glucagon. Which is a finite resource. Please don't ever advise again that people don't have carbs.

I don't believe I did advise anyone not to have carbs. That being said, the literature these things is increasingly pointing to the fact that most health ailments previously attributed to fats are in fact the result of eating refined sugars and too many carbs in general. So even for a regular diet there seems to be an increasing consensus that cutting out sugars, starch, and other such things is essentially a no-brainer for health benefits. Stopping the spiking of your blood sugar level is a win-win. Regarding an ultra-low carb diet that is only supposed to be for short-term usage anyhow.

DJQuag

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #47 on: June 18, 2021, 06:56:12 PM »
If you're running on less then 30g carbs a day then you're running off of the ultrapure liver stored glucagon. Which is a finite resource. Please don't ever advise again that people don't have carbs.

I don't believe I did advise anyone not to have carbs. That being said, the literature these things is increasingly pointing to the fact that most health ailments previously attributed to fats are in fact the result of eating refined sugars and too many carbs in general. So even for a regular diet there seems to be an increasing consensus that cutting out sugars, starch, and other such things is essentially a no-brainer for health benefits. Stopping the spiking of your blood sugar level is a win-win. Regarding an ultra-low carb diet that is only supposed to be for short-term usage anyhow.

Course not, my apologies. Atkins diet became real popular about fifteen years ago, and now we're hearing about it again now except people are calling it the keto diet.

Is a healthy low carb diet healthy? Course it is. We used to hear about it as diets with like an abundance of leafy greens and *censored*. And I wasn't trying to cast aspersions. Just...it's like talking about how lean rabbit meat is, how healthy living it is. Healthy it might be, but that same lean meat will give you protein poisoning if you take it too far and don't eat fat with it

Good diets are good diets but, and call me silly if you need to, I fall into the camp of all human beings are inherently stupid. Advertising something as inherently dangerous as a keto diet without giving the danger warnings on it doesn't strike me as wise.

Fenring

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #48 on: June 18, 2021, 07:26:17 PM »
Atkins diet became real popular about fifteen years ago, and now we're hearing about it again now except people are calling it the keto diet.

Yeah, Atkins (and South Beach) was a serious problem when it came out because it was during the height of fat diets when there was no science behind it. You would have these books come out, and then product/food lines, and the main purpose of it all as far as I can tell was to make a fortune while offering no real data on whether it would kill its users or not. Atkins was also touted as a 'forever' diet, which is worse, because avoiding carbs with no end is obviously bad. And ironically although we're starting to learn that refined carbs are really bad for you, this was not really understood back in the early 90's, so Atkins was sort of more right than it had any right to be, possibly by accident.

As a side point, Atkins was also pushing hard the "eat as much fat as you want!" diet, like just have as much bacon as you want and you'll lose weight, which is obviously bogus. And this particular aspect of keto alarms me as well. But at least these days you can get some much more serious biochemical analyses of these diets to see what they're really doing to you, compared to 30 years ago. So from that standpoint it becomes a life choice that you have to evaluate, as compared to a sort of religion or cult like it was in the 90's. I think a decent analogy might be pharmaceuticals. Earlier on in the pharma 'industry' there was a lot of option but no data, so that you could just as soon be drinking tree bark as an arsenic solution. After many years obviously our data is much more serious, so that although why pharmaceuticals work still evades us we have double blind trials and such to give us educated information. Prescription drugs may still be dangerous, but one can make a reasonably informed decision now, whereas that wasn't possible in the 1930's. So I see it as being somewhat similar in that sense.

Quote
Good diets are good diets but, and call me silly if you need to, I fall into the camp of all human beings are inherently stupid. Advertising something as inherently dangerous as a keto diet without giving the danger warnings on it doesn't strike me as wise.

I think the problem now isn't the information out there, but the white noise of the internet. If you want to do pro/con research you can find medical opinions on both sides. It's more that you have to actually data sift to make sure you're getting the full picture. In 1990 there was no full picture to get. But that does put an onus on the individual to do the reading, which in practical effect may mean that many people won't bother and it verges toward being like the '90s for them.

For my part the reason I tried the very low carb diet is I was curious to see if the following claims were true:

-Wake up feeling more awake, not needing hours to wake up fully
-No insane hunger pangs every few hours
-Less need to snack since meals keep you full longer
-More energy during the day

My anecdotal conclusions thus far are a bit inconclusive, in part because I've been physically disabled from my injury. However I do think I've noticed feeling better as I wake up compared to before, which is quite relevant since I'm a chronic insomniac and often lack enough sleep. I also definitely see less random hunger pangs that need satisfying. For snacking I'm not sure since less physical activity always translates to my body thinking it needs snacks. So I might have to try the cycle again when I'm fully enabled down the road. But I didn't really try it as a weight loss plan, which is to be fair why many people try these diets. As always, my advice regarding losing weight is always more exercise less eating (which positively feed into each other). Any other 'trick' won't function as a lifestyle plan.

DJQuag

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Re: So will you take the vaccine?
« Reply #49 on: June 18, 2021, 08:58:29 PM »
Good points, and I get what you're saying.

However.

I was diagnosed diabetic in 1988, as a child, and I promise you, all of that about how people weren't aware that blasting your metabolism with high amounts of carbs all the time wasn't exactly healthy has been known for a while.

I'll grant you, professionals may well have been assuming that if your body had the appropriate insulin to deal with it, it wasn't a big deal. But they absolutely knew the biochemical processes and the risks therein.

And yeah, a low carb diet has all the benefits you've listed. Like I said, you need to get *some* carbs but if you cut down the amount you're probably going to feel better.

To be fair, it's entirely possible that you could substitute "carbs" with "calories" and get the same result. Most (Western) people just flat out eat too much these days and end up feeling pretty crappy for it.