Author Topic: Now you've done it  (Read 1876 times)

TheDrake

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #100 on: January 13, 2021, 08:41:27 PM »
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In my book, anyone who is sheltering behind section 230 is assuming a "public square/space" position, and if they have assumed that role, then they have the same restrictions on what they can regulate as a shopping center does on who can engage in political speech in their parking lot.

Pretty sure if a bunch of neo-nazis came over to your grocery store and started hate speech, you could have them trespassed. We're not talking about Turning Point USA here, nor are we talking about the Salvation Army, or a petitioner for gay rights.

Also let's not disregard that there's a business relationship in play here. Parler was a customer, which puts them *inside* the store in your analogy, does it not? 230 absolutely does not prohibit moderation, nor should it.

DonaldD

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #101 on: January 13, 2021, 10:41:14 PM »
The Daemon, I believe your rule was that if they were dressed alike, they should be pepper sprayed and arrested.

But for a hard line - anybody inside the Capitol building should clearly have been arrested.  There was no ambiguity there.  Yet they were escorted out - not even counting the Capitol Police who were taking selfies with the rioters.

There wee also folks being interviewed even after the Capitol had been emptied; where the interviewees were proclaiming pride in the folks who had attacked and occupied the Capitol buildings.  Dressed alike, too...

TheDeamon

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #102 on: January 14, 2021, 01:25:16 AM »
The Daemon, I believe your rule was that if they were dressed alike, they should be pepper sprayed and arrested.

That wasn't what I said, and I challenge you to find that assertion.

I'm trying to decide which one you're referencing as I don't believe that specific combination was used.

If they were part of a group that had been ordered to disperse and refused to disperse, they "deserved" to be on the receiving end of tear gas/pepper spray, if it was in the context of a declared riot where officer lives had been under active threat when crowd control munitions were authorized.

Other than the one officer getting crushed by a stampede, the others were heart attacks? Where was the active threat to the capitol police after the initial onrush? The industrial lasers being aimed at their eyes? The rocks and ball bearings being thrown at the police? The list goes on and on. Not saying it couldn't have happened on Capitol Hill, just that I'm not hearing any claims of that having happened, never mind wide-spread and endemic like it was in Portland's late night riots.

As to the people being arrested? I think you're referencing the guy who was snatched from the street after leaving the vicinity of the protests in Portland, where the guy being grabbed matched the description of someone they were looking for. That the description basically consisted of a general height, build, and AntiFa "black block" attire with beanie, well. Yes, he "deserved" being picked up for detention while they determined he wasn't the guy they were looking for. You wouldn't see me being particularly outraged if they'd been performing targeted arrests like that in the immediate aftermath of the DC Riots, but as it caught them fully off-guard it seems, obviously they didn't do that. (And doubt they would have even if capable, given the blowback from Portland)

« Last Edit: January 14, 2021, 01:28:08 AM by TheDeamon »

TheDrake

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #103 on: January 14, 2021, 01:34:27 AM »
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Other than the one officer getting crushed by a stampede, the others were heart attacks? Where was the active threat to the capitol police after the initial onrush? The industrial lasers being aimed at their eyes? The rocks and ball bearings being thrown at the police? The list goes on and on. Not saying it couldn't have happened on Capitol Hill, just that I'm not hearing any claims of that having happened, never mind wide-spread and endemic like it was in Portland's late night riots.

You heard about the pipe bombs that didn't go off, right?

TheDeamon

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #104 on: January 14, 2021, 01:55:01 AM »
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Other than the one officer getting crushed by a stampede, the others were heart attacks? Where was the active threat to the capitol police after the initial onrush? The industrial lasers being aimed at their eyes? The rocks and ball bearings being thrown at the police? The list goes on and on. Not saying it couldn't have happened on Capitol Hill, just that I'm not hearing any claims of that having happened, never mind wide-spread and endemic like it was in Portland's late night riots.

You heard about the pipe bombs that didn't go off, right?

You heard about the BLM protest in Portland (IIRC, I'm pretty sure I posted about it on here) where they tried to barricade police inside a precinct building, and then tried to set it on fire with police inside it?

Edit to add: How about breaking windows on an occupied Federal building and launching commercial grade fireworks into it? Portland had that happen several times.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2021, 01:59:48 AM by TheDeamon »

TheDeamon

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #105 on: January 14, 2021, 03:04:45 AM »
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2021/01/beyond-platforms-private-censorship-parler-and-stack

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At EFF, we think the answer is both simple and challenging: wherever possible, users should decide for themselves, and companies at the infrastructure layer should stay well out of it. The firmest, most consistent, approach infrastructure chokepoints can take is to simply refuse to be chokepoints at all. They should act to defend their role as a conduit, rather than a publisher. Just as law and custom developed a norm that we might sue a publisher for defamation, but not the owner of the building the publisher occupies, we are slowly developing norms about responsibility for content online. Companies like Zoom and Amazon have an opportunity to shape those norms—for the better or for the worse.

And if Amazon Web Services wants to behave like a publisher, then Section 230 doesn't apply to them, and should be liable for their content.

The whole thing about Section 230 was to allow ISP's to operate as a conduit with some ability to moderate content without taking on the liabilities of a publisher because such levels of moderation were understood to be impossible. But if the ISP wants to act like a publisher, then legally they need to be treated as one.

TheDeamon

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #106 on: January 14, 2021, 03:58:16 AM »
Or to frame this another way:

Online service providers current exist in a legal grey zone thanks to Section 230.

ScotUS ruled that if they wanted to treated like a utility service, then they couldn't moderate anything. Which meant porn and even kiddy porn couldn't be removed from online websites without their being treated like an online publisher and subject to liability as a consequence. Enter Section 230, which gave online sites like Ornery, Twitter, Facebook, Amazon, and others to operate online and perform limited curation of content (in particular the illegal stuff) and enjoy restrictions on what they can be held legally liable for.

Because unlike your local phone company, online sites act a lot more like a community notice board at a local store, bus stop, or insert other location of your preference. Rather than going full on wild west, they provisioned for the ISP's to play Lone Ranger in the digital wild west by way of Section 230.

Except many ISP's have now decided they're actually more partial to Judge Dredd as a role model.

Only now we have ISP's (in the case of Parler, it's AWS) who want to be legally treated like your phone company, but want to be able to exercise editorial control over their customer's content.

In a lot of respects, what AWS did is tantamount to Verizon deciding it won't allow you get phone calls from your 2nd Cousin Earl anymore because he used a racial epithet at some point in the recent past, and they don't want to provide Earl with a platform that could be used to spread his influence.

This also unironically also gets into the fun realm of IP telephony come to think of it. If you're IP telephony it IS a internet based service, and in reality, all phone calls are now data moved using internet IP protocols anymore. Do you really want tech infrastructure providers to be able to monitor and curate the content moving over "their wires" in all seriousness?

Or alternate example: Private Tollroad authorities which require detailed inspections and searches of the vehicles that are allowed on their roadways, even though that roadway only exists because of special considerations granted to them by local and state authorities? Would you really be okay with that?
« Last Edit: January 14, 2021, 04:04:17 AM by TheDeamon »


yossarian22c

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #108 on: January 14, 2021, 10:05:09 AM »
Ahhh.. But as per the logic applied to the BLM Riots, you could be present at a place where a riot is taking place for the purpose of protesting without being a rioter.

Which means there were "protesters" among those rioters. Which means the Protesters fall under B. Agreed as the rioters falling under D. Now you just have to figure out which is which. I am interested in seeing how you suss that one out, and see how that could apply to Portland.

I'm fine with all the people who stayed on the capital steps not being arrested, even though they were trespassing at the time. Unless they were part of breaching the doors or assaulting officers, I'm fine with the crowd that simply moved past the original barricade/police line being let go.

Everyone who entered the capital should be arrested. Everyone who assaulted a police officer should be arrested. People who broke windows and doors and seemed to be looking for lawmakers to assault (zip ties or other restraints) should have the book thrown at them.

TheDrake

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #109 on: January 14, 2021, 12:08:46 PM »
So your contention, Daemon, is that there should be no line unless it is illegal? Twitter has no choice but to act as bystander while one of their member spouts racist rhetoric about the negros and wetbacks? Or is it that you just think the line should be drawn somewhere else, that lets people talk about grabbing their guns and assaulting state capitols? Parler had every opportunity to be proactive, AWS warned them and they passively responded by removing only the content that was uniquely pointed out by AWS.

Also, do you make a distinction between companies with direct moderator control, e.g. Parler and Twitter, and those providing infrastructure services, e.g. Azure, AWS? I get your analogy, I'm just not sure I agree with it. I'd not be okay with Google Fiber being shut down at the Parler offices, for instance. But then, the subscription to that infrastructure doesn't come with TOS and standards. The Amazon contract does. Shouldn't Parler have to abide by their contractual obligations?

https://www.reuters.com/article/legal-us-otc-parler/the-hollow-core-of-parlers-antitrust-case-against-amazon-idUSKBN29I309

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Amazon’s lawyers at Davis Wright Tremaine filed the company’s brief opposing the TRO Tuesday night. Citing scores of chilling posts by Parler users - including vivid threats of violence to politicians, social media executives, journalists, Amazon delivery drivers, even teachers – Amazon argued that it was Parler, not Amazon, that had breached their agreement. Amazon’s terms of service, the brief said, prohibit content that “violates the rights of others, or that may be harmful to others.” If its web services customers violate those terms, Amazon said, it has the right to suspend or terminate their accounts immediately.

So by your standards, this is illegal content just like porn. If Parler wanted to freewheel it, maybe they should have built out their own server farm rather than signing that contract with Amazon?

TheDeamon

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #110 on: January 14, 2021, 02:39:33 PM »
So your contention, Daemon, is that there should be no line unless it is illegal? Twitter has no choice but to act as bystander while one of their member spouts racist rhetoric about the negros and wetbacks? Or is it that you just think the line should be drawn somewhere else, that lets people talk about grabbing their guns and assaulting state capitols? Parler had every opportunity to be proactive, AWS warned them and they passively responded by removing only the content that was uniquely pointed out by AWS.

Twitter is an end-point. Facebook is an end-point, to a fair degree the Apple Store and Google Play are "end-points" although that can be argued to an extent. And "end-points" they have basis to perform acts of content moderation so long as they are moderating that content in good faith.

However, in this case Amazon Web Services is not an end-point, and as such their ability to curate content needs to be limited and constrained. If AWS is able to curate content on their customer's sites, then what's to stop Internet Backbone Providers from starting to curate content going over "their wires" after all?

In some respects, this gets into a matter of Section 230 probably not being Granular enough. At present, the law makes no distinction between my home ISP, AT&T's backbone services, Amazon Web Services, or Facebook. They're all under that special immunity grant.

I'd think the party of Net Neutrality would not be the ones also simultaneously arguing for the ability of AWS to purge Parler from internet.

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Also, do you make a distinction between companies with direct moderator control, e.g. Parler and Twitter, and those providing infrastructure services, e.g. Azure, AWS? I get your analogy, I'm just not sure I agree with it. I'd not be okay with Google Fiber being shut down at the Parler offices, for instance.
 

Infrastructure services need to stay away from content moderation if they're not the "end point." Admittedly there is some hazy territory in regards to AWS specifically when it comes to Joe Hobbyist having his own personal cloud server and his relationship to AWS vs Parler and their relationship with AWS. Trying to codify what those differences are becomes a legalistic mess however. For Joe Hobbyist, AWS is the end point, even if he decides to run an internet forum that others are using. While Parler was at sufficient scale that they clearly had crossed the line into being an Infrastructure service themselves.

And Google Fiber, like most home ISP providers, does have a TOS and AUP.
Here is the residential one for Google Fiber: https://fiber.google.com/legal/accepteduse/residential/
Two items right at the top of their delineated list:
"To violate or encourage the violation of the legal rights of others."
"For any unlawful, invasive, infringing, defamatory, or fraudulent purpose."

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But then, the subscription to that infrastructure doesn't come with TOS and standards. The Amazon contract does. Shouldn't Parler have to abide by their contractual obligations?

As to the Amazon Contract dispute, without seeing the contract, it's very hard to call. But be honest here, Parler had already obtained millions of users in the week prior to being shut down. Amazon shut Parler down for 96violations of their TOS; violations carried our by Parler's end users, not Parler itself. Further, Amazon itself acknowledged that Parler was correcting the violations brought to its attention, Amazon's contention was "it wasn't resolved fast enough" as per their TOS. Which gets into the language of the contract as to requirements for resolution of complaints.

Although really Amazon is trying to make the case that those 96 example violations demonstrate "a pattern of abuse." Never mind that I'm sure a reasonably determined person could easily find hundreds of example of Twitter being in violation of Amazon's Acceptable Use Policy -- Clearly Twitter has a pattern of abuse as well - via their end-users. Yet Twitter remains online.

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Amazon’s lawyers at Davis Wright Tremaine filed the company’s brief opposing the TRO Tuesday night. Citing scores of chilling posts by Parler users - including vivid threats of violence to politicians, social media executives, journalists, Amazon delivery drivers, even teachers – Amazon argued that it was Parler, not Amazon, that had breached their agreement. Amazon’s terms of service, the brief said, prohibit content that “violates the rights of others, or that may be harmful to others.” If its web services customers violate those terms, Amazon said, it has the right to suspend or terminate their accounts immediately.

So by your standards, this is illegal content just like porn. If Parler wanted to freewheel it, maybe they should have built out their own server farm rather than signing that contract with Amazon?

The thing is Amazon was behaving as an ISP offering "infrastructure services" so now replace Amazon with Sprint, AT&T, Rogers, and other major backbone service providers. Because their shiny new data center hosts "unacceptable content" they're shutting off their respective backbone connections to the Data Center. Same problem, just a different vendor.

DonaldD

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #111 on: January 14, 2021, 11:05:24 PM »
Remember last summer, when the president warned about the mobs that would descend on the country should Biden win?

What we didn't realize was that it was possibly the only promise that he meant to keep.

TheDeamon

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #112 on: January 15, 2021, 01:00:13 AM »
Remember last summer, when the president warned about the mobs that would descend on the country should Biden win?

What we didn't realize was that it was possibly the only promise that he meant to keep.

Oh, the AntiFa ones are coming, but they're waiting until after Biden is in Office, they don't want to give Trump more ammo right now.

TheDeamon

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #113 on: January 15, 2021, 02:06:06 AM »
Oh hey.
https://www.politico.com/news/2021/01/14/liberal-activist-charged-capitol-riot-459553

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Sullivan claimed in news interviews after the riot that he was documenting the events there as a journalist, but prosecutors contend he was a participant in the violence.

FBI Special Agent Matthew Foulger said in an affidavit supporting the criminal complaint that a series of statements Sullivan made on video encouraged the lawbreaking.

Foulger said that as the crowd rushed the Capitol building, Sullivan declared: “We accomplished this *censored*. We did this together. *censored* yeah! We are all a part of this history,” and “Let’s burn this *censored* down.”

The complaint alleges that as rioters sought to break the glass in a set of doors in the Capitol, Sullivan rushed forward and said he could help. “Hey guys, I have a knife. I have a knife. Let me up,” the activist allegedly said.

The FBI appeared to dispute Sullivan’s claim that he was a reporter. Foulger told the court that Sullivan “admitted … that he has no press credentials.”

“The investigation has not revealed any connection between Sullivan and any journalistic organizations,” the FBI agent said.

And funny how remember this past summer when I said that AntiFa and its affiliates like to pretend to be members of the press corps when it is convenient for them to do so? Meet Exhibit A.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2021, 02:15:48 AM by TheDeamon »

TheDeamon

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #114 on: January 15, 2021, 02:35:32 AM »
Also got a response back from some people I know down in Utah. There are many Law enforcement types down there that know him very well, and they're very pleased to see the Feds have him in the act on video, and that Feds are pursuing legal actions against him.

They do note the guy is very well funded, so we'll see what his legal defense team comes up with. But given what he was caught doing, Democrats are going to have a hard time providing him cover this time.

Aris Katsaris

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #115 on: January 15, 2021, 05:04:01 AM »
I certainly hope they won't provide cover for him. He should be charged same as the other people there.

Am amused that the (seemingly) only non-white person in the riot turns out to also be the (seemingly) only non-Trump supporter there.

TheDeamon

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #116 on: January 15, 2021, 05:50:26 AM »
I certainly hope they won't provide cover for him. He should be charged same as the other people there.

Am amused that the (seemingly) only non-white person in the riot turns out to also be the (seemingly) only non-Trump supporter there.

Did get some more information on why he was of interest in Utah. Evidently his group liked to do armed protests of their own, mostly outside of police stations. Only they were BLM aligned. Given what was going on elsewhere *cough* Portland *cough* Chicago *cough* Seattle *cough* I could see why that would have made them a bit twitchy, especially when the shooting of a motorist that happened in Provo back in June also evidently was connected to a protest involving his group.

DonaldD

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #117 on: January 15, 2021, 06:25:36 AM »
Case closed. Black man insights an otherwise peaceful crowd of White supremacist Confederate proud shaman Minotaur boys to attack the Capitol and kill police officers.

Aris Katsaris

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #118 on: January 15, 2021, 08:15:39 AM »
More information about John Sullivan:
https://mobile.twitter.com/RebellionBaby/status/1331902025429258241

This is a November thread, so NOT written after the fact! Leftists were warning people about John Sullivan, and thinking he is a far-right agent provocateur, or at least a dishonest grifter who was infiltrating BLM protests for his own profit. They were warning protesters to be very wary of him.

DonaldD

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #119 on: January 15, 2021, 09:07:38 AM »
And... just like in Portland: U.S. says Capitol rioters meant to 'capture and assassinate' officials - filing.

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WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Federal prosecutors offered an ominous new assessment of last week’s siege of the U.S. Capitol by President Donald Trump’s supporters on Thursday, saying in a court filing that rioters intended “to capture and assassinate elected officials.”

...

“Strong evidence, including Chansley’s own words and actions at the Capitol, supports that the intent of the Capitol rioters was to capture and assassinate elected officials in the United States government,” prosecutors wrote.

We'll just have to wait and see whether this was just a couple of impotent wackadoodles, or if there were actually more organized and serious plans to murder federal legislators.

yossarian22c

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #120 on: January 15, 2021, 09:14:00 AM »
More information about John Sullivan:
https://mobile.twitter.com/RebellionBaby/status/1331902025429258241

This is a November thread, so NOT written after the fact! Leftists were warning people about John Sullivan, and thinking he is a far-right agent provocateur, or at least a dishonest grifter who was infiltrating BLM protests for his own profit. They were warning protesters to be very wary of him.

So he's an anarchist who gets off on causing mayhem. Lock him up and move on.

NobleHunter

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #121 on: January 15, 2021, 09:18:44 AM »
He can't be an anarchist unless he has approximately six meetings per riot.

msquared

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #122 on: January 15, 2021, 09:26:25 AM »
Damn that George Soros. A double false flag operation. Is there nothing that man will not stoop to.

TheDrake

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #123 on: January 15, 2021, 10:40:29 AM »
Evidently, evidently, I know a guy in Utah. Compelling stuff.

Wayward Son

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #124 on: January 15, 2021, 01:26:23 PM »
Meanwhile, for anyone who thinks the Right doesn't have the people who would attack the Capitol and plan to cause mayhem, Amazon posted some of the post that led to them banning Parler.

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*“Fry’em up. The whole fkn crew. #pelosi #aoc #thesquad #soros #gates #chuckschumer #hrc #obama #adamschiff #blm #antifa we are coming for you and you will know it.”

*“#JackDorsey ... you will die a bloody death alongside Mark Suckerturd [Zuckerberg].... It has been decided and plans are being put in place. Remember the photographs inside your home while you slept? Yes, that close. You will die a sudden death!”

*“We are going to fight in a civil War on Jan.20th, Form MILITIAS now and acquire targets.”

*“On January 20th we need to start systematicly [sic] assassinating [sic] #liberal leaders, liberal activists, #blm leaders and supporters, members of the #nba #nfl #mlb #nhl #mainstreammedia anchors and correspondents and #antifa. I already have a news worthy event planned.”

*“Shoot the police that protect these *censored*bag senators right in the head then make the senator grovel a bit before capping they ass.”

*“After the firing squads are done with the politicians the teachers are next.”

*“Death to @zuckerberg @realjeffbezos @jackdorsey @pichai.”

*“White people need to ignite their racial identity and rain down suffering and death like a hurricane upon zionists.”

*“Put a target on these motherless trash [Antifa] they aren’t human taking one out would be like stepping on a roach no different.”

*“We need to act like our forefathers did Kill [Black and Jewish people] all Leave no victims or survivors.”

*“We are coming with our list we know where you live we know who you are and we are coming for you and it starts on the 6th civil war... Lol if you will think it’s a joke... Enjoy your last few days you have.”

*“This bitch [Stacey Abrams] will be good target practice for our beginners.”

*“This cu** [United States Secretary of Transportation Elaine Chao] should be... hung for betraying their country.”

*“Hang this mofo [Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger] today.”

*“HANG THAt N***** ASAP”

Can anyone blame us for not believing it had to be Antifa that lead the attack on the Capitol?  ::)

DonaldD

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #125 on: January 15, 2021, 01:36:38 PM »
Those people posting on parler were Antifa, silly!

TheDeamon

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #126 on: January 15, 2021, 01:37:53 PM »
Evidently, evidently, I know a guy in Utah. Compelling stuff.
Well, for some searching of my own.

https://www.sltrib.com/news/2020/07/22/more-than-armed-men-show/

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At 8 a.m., John Sullivan took his place in front of the Capitol. He was covered in black clothing and gear from head-to-toe — a black bandana around his nose and mouth, a black rifle slung across his chest over a black tactical vest, black boots on his feet.
The exhibition, promoted by his activist group Insurgence USA, was described as a “Solo Armed Stance,” meant to decry police arresting protesters in unmarked vehicles, like what’s happened to demonstrators in Portland, and what happened to him at his house July 9, when he was taken into custody for his alleged involvement with crimes at a June 29 protest in Provo.
“I literally thought I was going to die,” Sullivan said of the arrest.

https://www.sltrib.com/news/2020/07/01/three-groups-plan-gather/

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The counterprotesters occasionally jeered at the group gathered in front of police headquarters, who yelled back anti-Trump chants. But John Sullivan, the founder of Insurgence, encouraged those gathered in support of racial equity to ignore and turn their backs on the taunters.
“They want you to do something. They want you to start the violence, don’t do it. That’s not what we’re here for,” Sullivan said.

TheDeamon

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #127 on: January 15, 2021, 01:42:37 PM »
Meanwhile, for anyone who thinks the Right doesn't have the people who would attack the Capitol and plan to cause mayhem, Amazon posted some of the post that led to them banning Parler.

And Twitter was someone immune from having the same content on their servers?

#hangmikepence was trending on twitter for much of the same day that parler was shutdown by Amazon.

Of course Amazon claimed the trending algorithm wasn't on the AWS servers.. Which ignores the matter than in order for it to trend in the first place, people have to be using the tag.

Edit to add: For a service with millions of users, that "hundreds of violations" can be found over a period of weeks is hardly shocking. The question is if Parler was acting to remove the content once notified of it existing.

Once again, Amazon is asserting a "not sh*&" position about what was going on with Parler. Any sufficiently large user base is going to be able to amass a lot of violations in a short period of time. Because that is people being people.

What is relevant here is the effectiveness, and timeliness, of Parler's  moderation response. (And wishes of law enforcement)

At that point, all you have is Amazon saying "they weren't fast enough" which gets into the specific language of their contract. And 15,000 other items of nuance and interpretation.

Amazon asserting the content existed is one thing. Amazon claiming the content still existed days/weeks after initially being reported is another. And here, Amazon doesn't get to say Person A posting "Tralalalala" and getting banned, only for Person B to post the same thing make's person B's actions a continuation of the person A incident. It isn't the same offense.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2021, 01:49:58 PM by TheDeamon »

TheDrake

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #128 on: January 15, 2021, 01:51:54 PM »
Evidently, evidently, I know a guy in Utah. Compelling stuff.
Well, for some searching of my own.

https://www.sltrib.com/news/2020/07/22/more-than-armed-men-show/

Quote
At 8 a.m., John Sullivan took his place in front of the Capitol. He was covered in black clothing and gear from head-to-toe — a black bandana around his nose and mouth, a black rifle slung across his chest over a black tactical vest, black boots on his feet.
The exhibition, promoted by his activist group Insurgence USA, was described as a “Solo Armed Stance,” meant to decry police arresting protesters in unmarked vehicles, like what’s happened to demonstrators in Portland, and what happened to him at his house July 9, when he was taken into custody for his alleged involvement with crimes at a June 29 protest in Provo.
“I literally thought I was going to die,” Sullivan said of the arrest.

https://www.sltrib.com/news/2020/07/01/three-groups-plan-gather/

Quote
The counterprotesters occasionally jeered at the group gathered in front of police headquarters, who yelled back anti-Trump chants. But John Sullivan, the founder of Insurgence, encouraged those gathered in support of racial equity to ignore and turn their backs on the taunters.
“They want you to do something. They want you to start the violence, don’t do it. That’s not what we’re here for,” Sullivan said.

Thank you. So what is it that this lone Floyd protester also participating in violent acts supposed to prove? Unequal treatment if he winds up not being charged like people in similar circumstances? That Antifa and BLM were behind it all, or present in significant numbers? That at least one person there was not incited by Trump?

LetterRip

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #129 on: January 15, 2021, 01:56:00 PM »
I have a friend on facebook who is convinced it was all antifa and the presence of this guy proves it.

TheDeamon

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #130 on: January 15, 2021, 01:59:03 PM »
I have a friend on facebook who is convinced it was all antifa and the presence of this guy proves it.

He's probably just the easiest one to link back to BLM because he was promoting himself as much as "the cause." I'm not going to be surprised to see more people turning up with leftist connections, they're just going to be harder to ferret out as they don't maintain such a high profile.

rightleft22

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #131 on: January 15, 2021, 02:01:12 PM »
Silly rabbet don't you know that if you can find Waldo then everyone else around him can't be blamed or held accountable.

We have to do everything we can to avoid looking into our own motives and responsibilities or if haven forbid, wonder if we been manipulated and lied to by those we trusted.
Its the 'Waldo' that fooled everyone not those we blindly put our trust into. We are free from having to look at our selves thank the gods
« Last Edit: January 15, 2021, 02:03:27 PM by rightleft22 »

LetterRip

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #132 on: January 15, 2021, 02:02:10 PM »
He was 'found' because he contacted Rolling Stone and did an interview about his filming of the Capitol riots and insurrection.

He announced prior to the event he was going to attend as a filmographer and has been funded as such and brought equipment to do so and actually did film the event.

It sounds like he may have said words encouraging criminal activity - which could eliminate any potential defense as reporter - he seems to be claiming that he was repeating what others to 'fit in' since he feared being attacked due to anti BLM semtiments by the crowd.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2021, 02:13:10 PM by LetterRip »

DonaldD

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #133 on: January 15, 2021, 02:02:50 PM »
Yep! All those peaceful white supremacists, proud boys, Confederate flag waving Trump supporters, tricked into attacking the Capitol, attacking police officers and killing at least one of them by those devious, evil, black antifa rioters.

Whatever happened to the party of personal responsibility?

TheDeamon

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #134 on: January 15, 2021, 05:23:49 PM »
Yep! All those peaceful white supremacists, proud boys, Confederate flag waving Trump supporters, tricked into attacking the Capitol, attacking police officers and killing at least one of them by those devious, evil, black antifa rioters.

Whatever happened to the party of personal responsibility?

And where have any of us said the people who broke the law shouldn't be held accountable for their actions?

The most you've had from us is pointing how other people who did comparable things weren't. It's almost like one side wants to see equal justice applied, while the other side doesn't care.

Portland: They're breaking the law and should be held accountable.
Capitol Hill Riot: They're breaking the law should be held accountable to the same standard as Portland with respect to Federal property and impeding the enactment/enforcement of Federal law.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2021, 05:28:13 PM by TheDeamon »

DonaldD

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #135 on: January 15, 2021, 06:10:14 PM »
Hmmm... every single person who marched on the Capitol was breaking the law in the same way as Portland BLM protesters who were on public streets after the police closed them down were.  Yet, the DC Police and the Capitol police did not kettle them, did not round them up without other cause... they did not even arrest the people who had successfully breached the Capitol buildings themselves.

I'm just pointing out that the people who attacked the Capitol have not somehow been treated more harshly than Portland protesters.  That is your imagination.  And this may be at least partly to do with the police simply being overwhelmed: maybe, just maybe, if there had been sufficient law enforcement and military personnel on hand, then maybe they would have rounded up all those protesters who were illegally at and in the Capitol.  But as it stands, they didn't.

And that is if we ignore the severity of the alleged criminal acts. Setting dumpsters on fire, or barricades on fire, or breaking windows at a courthouse, is not actually the same as breaking into the Capitol to disrupt the transfer of political power in the federal government. It's not the same as killing a police officer who was protecting the actual government while it was undertaking this task.

Wayward Son

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #136 on: January 15, 2021, 06:20:09 PM »
It was not smashing windows to get to those government officials and possibly do them bodily harm...

TheDrake

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #137 on: January 15, 2021, 06:32:32 PM »
Remember that time BLM erected a gallows and chanted for the death of the Mayor of Portland and then broke into the actual building he was in? Yeah, me neither.

TheDeamon

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #138 on: January 15, 2021, 07:02:55 PM »
Remember that time BLM erected a gallows and chanted for the death of the Mayor of Portland and then broke into the actual building he was in? Yeah, me neither.

Remember that time a BLM protestor positioned himself to attack federal officers with a hammer as they came out of a side door on the federal building in Portland?

Wayward Son

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #139 on: January 15, 2021, 07:23:15 PM »
And remember the woman who tugged at his arm and tried to stop him?  Did see any of that at the Capitol.

DonaldD

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #140 on: January 15, 2021, 07:38:29 PM »
Weeeeell, a couple of people dragged away that cop as he was getting smashed with the US flag... which of course brings up the excellent point - kneeling in from of the US flag?  Disrespectful.  Assaulting, with a US flag, a police officer protecting the seat of government?  Patriotic.

TheDrake

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #141 on: January 15, 2021, 07:46:46 PM »
Look, of course there have been heinous violent acts committed by BLM rioters. I don't think that's in question. What is in question, Deamon, is that you seem to be under some confusion about what happened to people who punch, kicked, threw rocks at, and otherwise attacked law enforcement and others. I haven't heard of such a person being let off the hook. You seem to be suffering under the misconception that Portland and other places were operating like "The Purge".

Nevertheless, understand that assaulting cops, as bad as that is, is not as bad as an assassination attempt that was wildly supported. But we don't have to play the "as bad as" game anyway. They are both bad, and they both get punished if they can be identified.

TheDeamon

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #142 on: January 17, 2021, 10:20:58 PM »
Nevertheless, understand that assaulting cops, as bad as that is, is not as bad as an assassination attempt that was wildly supported. But we don't have to play the "as bad as" game anyway. They are both bad, and they both get punished if they can be identified.

Citation needed, you need to prove there was a credible threat of targeted political killings aimed at Congressional Leadership associated with the riots. Or that more than a handul of people wandering the Capital building were even aware of the plot, if one can be proven to exist.

I'd think if they could prove it, they'd be crowing about it with a lot more specifics than he vague generalities they've been using to date.

But I guess we'll see what charges get filed and what goes to court.

TheDeamon

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #143 on: January 17, 2021, 10:21:47 PM »
In other news, Parler has a new hosting provider, Epik is going to host them, and they're not strangers to controversy, they're hosts for 8chan as well.

DonaldD

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #144 on: January 18, 2021, 09:13:13 AM »
Quote
WASHINGTON (AP) — Members of President Donald Trump’s failed presidential campaign played key roles in orchestrating the Washington rally that spawned a deadly assault on the U.S. Capitol, according to an Associated Press review of records, undercutting claims the event was the brainchild of the president’s grassroots supporters.

A pro-Trump nonprofit group called Women for America First hosted the “Save America Rally” on Jan. 6 at the Ellipse, an oval-shaped, federally owned patch of land near the White House. But an attachment to the National Park Service public gathering permit granted to the group lists more than half a dozen people in staff positions for the event who just weeks earlier had been paid thousands of dollars by Trump’s 2020 reelection campaign. Other staff scheduled to be “on site” during the demonstration have close ties to the White House.
So not exactly surprising, but the Trump campaign was very involved in the organization of the rally that preceded the attack on the Capitol - so very much involved in bringing all of those disaffected people to Washington, from around the country, on the day of the certification.

Aris Katsaris

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #145 on: January 18, 2021, 10:14:38 AM »
Very nice new video at:
https://edition.cnn.com/videos/politics/2021/01/17/capitol-riot-video-the-new-yorker-newsroom-vpx.cnn
including some of the insurrectionists explicitly saying (word for word) "We are listening to Trump" and "I think Cruz would want us to do this."

DonaldD

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #146 on: January 18, 2021, 10:15:55 AM »
Here's an interesting analysis of the mechanics behind how so many an the right were convinced that anti-fascists were behind the January 6 insurrection: How an internet lie about the Capitol invasion turned into an instant conspiracy theory

Quote
According to data from media intelligence firm Zignal labs, at least 411,099 mentions of the lie appeared online in less than 24 hours. The rumor morphed and gained traction as more people contributed subplots, and it swerved through niche platforms and into the mainstream, where a Republican member of Congress blamed antifa for the insurrection.

msquared

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #147 on: January 18, 2021, 10:25:40 AM »
So the question is can the speakers at the rally be held responsible for what their supporters think they told them to do? Can they be held responsible for "unintended" consequences?  Even if those consequences could probably be foreseen under the Reasonable Man legal theory?

msquared

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #148 on: January 18, 2021, 12:14:10 PM »
Those great patriots at the Capitol were going to sell Pelosi's lap top (that they stole) to the Russians.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/capitol-rioter-plotted-sell-stolen-155600867.html

Now isn't that how you support your country.

Wayward Son

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Re: Now you've done it
« Reply #149 on: January 18, 2021, 07:27:38 PM »