Author Topic: Election Day  (Read 48122 times)

Fenring

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Re: Election Day
« Reply #150 on: April 10, 2016, 05:25:37 AM »
Then there's Clinton, who wants to reassure everyone that the boat isn't going to sink, but is partially to blame and doesn't care that the hole is getting bigger and the winds are beginning to howl.

FTFY

AI Wessex

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Re: Election Day
« Reply #151 on: April 10, 2016, 05:57:44 AM »
I tell you what, I'll fix it for myself:

Quote
If you vote, those are your choices, so you're in the same boat as (most of) the rest of us.  But I would characterize the seasick options differently.  Cruz wants to sink the ship of state and is willing to let everyone drown as a result. Trump imagines himself the Captain of the Titanic, but this time it won't sink because he'll lighten the load by jettisoning the lifeboats.  Sanders gets everyone on board a fleet of bamboo rafts and sets course for the new world.  Then there's Clinton, who tries to patch the gaping hole with tar paper that was caused by years of scraping against the rocks but doesn't hear the winds beginning to howl.

OpsanusTau

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Re: Election Day
« Reply #152 on: April 10, 2016, 09:37:13 AM »
Yes, those are the same choices everyone gets. (?)

My post was a description of the reasons for my own astonishment that these are, in fact, the choices. Everyone else can continue to make generally correct arguments why all of them are legitimately problematic candidates - great! I just feel like we're all in bizarro world. I'm for Dole/Kemp. http://www.dolekemp96.org/

To unpack my statement about hoping it's not a Clinton vs. Trump race nationally - I really don't want to vote for Clinton for several reasons, most importantly to me because I'm serious about the whole Boomer thing but also because as far as I can tell she's legitimately a jerk and a crook. But Trump is such a constant liar and such a joke in terms of actual policy and also our international standing that it is pretty important to me that he not become President. In previous presidential elections I've always lived in states where the electoral college made my actual vote pointless and I did what I wanted (e.g., write-in candidate or third party). Now I live in a swing state, so not only will I need to make an actual vote, but probably I will consider it my duty to do some civic volunteering amongst my neighbors - and I really don't want to be doing that in favor of Hilary Clinton. That's what I think is somewhat different about my own situation as opposed to many other voters - I'm a disaffected independent living in a swing state, and opposed to all the candidates but much more strongly opposed to one than any of the others.  :P

AI Wessex

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Re: Election Day
« Reply #153 on: April 10, 2016, 01:42:07 PM »
To clarify, can you rank them, where >0 means you could vote for the person, 0 is eh, and <0 is no way.  Your numeric values should be in the range of -2^16..2^16 - 1, and the larger the value, the more.  Values are relative, of course.  The four suspects don't have to be the only persons of interest, so go free range if you want.  Mine would be:

Other: 20
Clinton: 17
Sanders: 14
Kasich: -622
Trump: -32767
Cruz: -32768

All values +/- some waggle.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2016, 01:44:13 PM by AI Wessex »

DJQuag

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Re: Election Day
« Reply #154 on: April 11, 2016, 05:45:14 AM »
Sanders +100
Clinton -1
Cruz and Trump tie at -100 because I suspect that they would be equally bad, just in different ways.

DJQuag

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Re: Election Day
« Reply #155 on: April 11, 2016, 08:22:08 AM »
There was a point in the past when the Baby Boomers finally noticed that, holy *censored*, enough of the old guard had finally died off that it was now them that got to make the rules.

I firmly believe that this will be looked back on as the election where Millenials started to realize this.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2016, 08:28:13 AM by DJQuag »

AI Wessex

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Re: Election Day
« Reply #156 on: April 11, 2016, 01:48:43 PM »
Quote
I firmly believe that this will be looked back on as the election where Millenials started to realize this.
I think you may be right about that.  I'm retiring soon and will become more politically active, but I suspect the scope of my ability, and that of my age cohorts, to influence things will be increasingly less.

AI Wessex

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Re: Election Day
« Reply #157 on: April 11, 2016, 07:10:09 PM »
...and then your kids can blame you :).  Consider that anything is possible and most big things are hard, and "this hard thing" is like turning a battleship in a small harbor.

cherrypoptart

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Re: Election Day
« Reply #158 on: April 12, 2016, 02:25:07 PM »
JFK was probably all right besides all the affairs. It may have been his anti-corruption that got him killed in that he and his brother seemed intent on, rightfully in my opinion, cracking down hard on the mob. I don't remember saying he was corrupt. Johnson was though. His voter fraud in Texas is legendary.

Back to Trump. I like the fact that he is willing to insult people and countries. That's what we need more of especially when they like getting up on their high horse and telling us how terrible we are such as Europe was doing with the Muslim refugee crisis and now look at them. They must be racist Islamophobes too now since they are putting tighter controls on the free flow of humanity like many of us suggested they do in the first place. Idiots.

And Mexico too. I'm not saying they are deliberately sending their criminals across but if they are doing nothing to stop them then that's pretty much the same difference. I would be curious to know how many of their criminals that they suspect have crossed the border they have given us a heads up about so we know to look out for them and how many of their criminals they have asked to be extradited back to Mexico so they can face the music for the crimes they committed there. There are a few cartel kingpins they may have warned us about but rapists, child molesters, and your run of the mill murderer? It looks like they are just glad those people are our problem now.

The same thing goes for China and its abuse of monetary and trade policy at our expense. This going along to get along nonsense, refusing to ruffle any feathers and letting Americans suffer for it has gone on long enough.  I don't agree with Donald insulting many of those he has insulted such as Ted's wife, but we can't continue to paralyze ourselves with fear about possibly insulting someone when we know very well that they will use that against us to take advantage and have their way to our detriment.

Sanders -100
Clinton - 250
Kasich + 30
Cruz +200
Trump +250
Jack in the Box +45

Fenring

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Re: Election Day
« Reply #159 on: April 12, 2016, 02:40:19 PM »
cherry, I notice that the magnitude of your lack of support for Clinton is precisely the same for your positive support for Trump. Assuming -250 means you hate Clinton and everything she stands for, does this mean you equally love Trump and everything he stands for? And as a corollary question, does this means you almost-love Cruz?

cherrypoptart

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Re: Election Day
« Reply #160 on: April 12, 2016, 03:24:46 PM »
I agree with Cruz more than Trump over the broad spectrum of issues but on the issues that I agree with Trump I have more hope that Trump will actually be able to get something done about them.

For instance regarding border security, deporting illegals, destroying ISIS and taking the oil they use to fund their terror spree as just compensation, negotiating trade deals that are fairer for America, tackling inefficiency and waste in government like it was a business for instance by firing people, I expect that Trump and Cruz would largely agree except on ISIS but Trump seems like he is the only one who would actually do what he says he will do in part because he won't worry about all the feelings he will hurt while getting it done.

Clinton will continue the flooding of America will illegals and all manner of other future Democrat voters regardless of the fact that we are trillions of dollars in debt and will only dig ourselves deeper into the sinkhole if we don't do something different from what we've been doing. Not to mention the votes of those people will seal the fate of the Republican party and usher in generations of Democratic socialist failure.  Kasich will do that too for the cheap labor and for purposes of pandering and the result will be the same even if it takes a few years longer because he keeps the floodgates open whereas Clinton blows up the dam. But basically, yes, I disagree with Clinton about as much as I agree with Trump. I would say my scale may have been +275 to -275. I probably agree with Clinton on cutting pollution and I fear it will increase with Trump though even with Clinton she will probably act as feebleminded as most Democrats nowadays by concentrating on carbon instead of real pollution like mercury, lead, sulfur, dioxins, and the like.  Hopefully Trump will keep his word and get rid of Obamacare. I understand he's even agreed to single payer and though I don't think that will work out as well as most supporters hope and I disagree with it on principle, it will still be a vast improvement over Obamacare.

I think I mentioned before that I agree with Newt's idea of a two tiered system where people can buy insurance if they want or they can get free or subsidized healthcare courtesy of the government but they may have to wait longer or the care may not be top notch, for instance on par with what veterans get or prisoners. And of course there is a third tier which is cash. So even if Trump does go with single payer that is fine as long as people still have the option of buying insurance that can get you faster and better care from private providers. I'm seeing something like that in action now. My mother in law had a stroke in Japan and though she would get care even if she were indigent she gets better care such as a private hospital room because she has insurance. That may not seem "fair" compared to Canada and Britain where if I'm not mistaken they make everyone wait and receive the same (lousy) level of service but it helps support the health care system not to have everyone so dependent on it and helps lead to better medical advances when there are financial incentives for discovering them. I also mentioned my idea to have a "militarized" healthcare system in which people could have their medical education paid for or provided in government run training facilities in return for a term of service after which they could go into the private sector. I hear that the number of doctors and nurses are purposefully limited by the industry in order to keep prices, salaries, and profits artificially high. The solution is obviously to increase the supply of medical practitioners and since the industry itself is limiting it only the government will be able to step in to solve the problem.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2016, 03:36:56 PM by cherrypoptart »

AI Wessex

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Re: Election Day
« Reply #161 on: April 12, 2016, 03:35:41 PM »
Quote
But basically, yes, I disagree with Clinton about as much as I agree with Trump. I would say my scale may have been +275 to -275.
I suggested the range could be as broad as -32768..+32767, so you're saying that Clinton is bad but not *that* bad. You wouldn't be happy about it if she were elected, but you're not going to climb to the top of the water tower and mow us down, eh?

cherrypoptart

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Re: Election Day
« Reply #162 on: April 12, 2016, 03:43:52 PM »
Yeah those numbers were too much for me to deal with. Sorry.

No I won't be that despondent if she wins. I'm looking at dual Irish citizenship though to have a backup "bug-out" country. It was going to be Japan but unfortunately they got irradiated. But I won't be like one of the liberals after Trump wins such as I heard stories about when Bush won his second term. Like this one:

"Got into the office early today to get some extra work knocked out but I've been having a lot of trouble concentrating as liberal after liberal goes screaming past outside my office window with a look of sheer terror in their eyes and screaming like they just witnesses bloody murder. Come on people. Bush isn't going to be THAT bad, is he? Even though we disagree politically, many of these people are my good water cooler gossip friends so as our eyes briefly meet I give them a big encouraging smile and hearty thumbs up. Though to be honest I'm not sure how much good it's going to really do seeing as how I work up on the forty-fifth floor... But I do wish them well."

NobleHunter

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Re: Election Day
« Reply #163 on: April 12, 2016, 03:51:59 PM »
Quote
destroying ISIS and taking the oil they use to fund their terror spree as just compensation
Continuing the American tradition of stealing from thieves at the expense of the people who owned it in the first place.

cherrypoptart

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Re: Election Day
« Reply #164 on: April 12, 2016, 04:19:18 PM »
True. There's no denying it. But we can't keep letting it be used to help fund the genocide of non-Muslims by ISIS. And we can't risk it going back into the hands of ISIS 2.0, both the oil and the territory. And we deserve to be compensated for the tremendous cost in blood and money we will have to pay to stop them. So what's the other choice?

Keep doing the bare minimum to deflect suspicion from Obama that he doesn't really consider this a problem? Or keep doing what the EU is doing which is nothing at all?

That reminds me... I also agree with Trump's stance on waterboarding. Belgium captured that Paris terrorist and he decided he didn't want to talk anymore and wanted a lawyer. A few days later Brussels was hit by terrorists he probably knew about and if thirty or more people died with hundreds horrifically injured because he wasn't waterboarded then on one side you have those who say all of those people dying and getting maimed was worth it not to waterboard him and on the other side you have Trump and me saying waterboarding one terrorist would have been a very small price to pay, and well worth it, to save those poor people doomed by their own government for the sake of a terrorist.

If they purposefully target civilians then in my opinion they aren't entitled to protection under the Geneva and Hague conventions otherwise what's the incentive for anyone at all to abide by them?
« Last Edit: April 12, 2016, 04:25:53 PM by cherrypoptart »

NobleHunter

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Re: Election Day
« Reply #165 on: April 12, 2016, 04:24:59 PM »
Deserve compensation? Why do you deserve compensation for stopping the monster you helped create? More to the point, pillaging the oil will simply create ISIS 2.0. In order to stop people from treating you like an enemy, you should stop behaving like one.

cherrypoptart

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Re: Election Day
« Reply #166 on: April 12, 2016, 04:27:37 PM »
So just leave them be then?

Or go in and get our good soldiers killed out of charity?

That's not going to happen so then we're left back at doing little to nothing.

What do you think is the right play?

NobleHunter

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Re: Election Day
« Reply #167 on: April 12, 2016, 04:37:22 PM »
It wouldn't be charity, it would be cleaning up the mess you made.

Supporting allied or less-hostile groups seems to be the least bad play. It will eventually deal with ISIS the territorial entity, which should help deal with the ISIS the ideological entity.

The assorted war crimes proposed by current and former GOP candidates are not the right play. Neither is robbing people.

D.W.

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Re: Election Day
« Reply #168 on: April 12, 2016, 05:19:57 PM »
Expansionism Lite isn't working out so well.  Conquer and hold or leave it alone.

If there is nobody to "prop up" then you can't clean up the mess.  If you do prop up someone, you risk eroding their legitimacy and them being seen as nothing but our puppet.

I suggest we focus on space exploration, terraforming and then just, "so long and thanks for all the fish", the problem.

cherrypoptart

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Re: Election Day
« Reply #169 on: April 12, 2016, 05:55:24 PM »
Space exploration at this point seems too pie in the sky for me.

I'd rather do like the Chinese and focus on the oceans except in addition to man-made islands we should work on colonizing the depths and mining the ocean floors.

But still keep up with the space exploration as well. It's just not going to happen nearly fast enough for my taste while ocean colonization can pretty much start now, and much of what we learn doing that will be applicable to space exploration as well.

As for ISIS territory, taking their oil is a small price to pay to stop the damage they are doing. That's damage being done that can never be undone. Japan pays us huge amounts of money to occupy them and I don't see why we should let ISIS off any more lightly. Plus it will work as a magnet to attract attacks from all the crazies over there, redirecting their focus away from the heartland and we would let the new immigrants from all over the world volunteer to supply much of the cannon fodder defense forces using a defense in depth strategy composed of many layers with them being on the more dangerous periphery so they might experience the pride and joy of earning their freedom and new opportunities for themselves and their descendants the way many of our ancestors did for us.

Fenring

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Re: Election Day
« Reply #170 on: April 12, 2016, 09:51:59 PM »
How does one 'take their oil' anyhow? With giant buckets? The principle way in which oil is 'taken' from weaker nations is through disfavorable trade agreements made effectively at the point of a gun. With the lesser nation guarding its own borders and interests, with some small help from the U.S., they had handle the security and private interests can handle the extraction. Bereft of a stable nation or government with which to make such an arrangement the options for oil mining are few in such a way that it can be done safely. You can either set up your own sovereign land in that region and label it a territory or new state, while defending it with full military support (no doubt including a permanent garrison), or you could somehow arrange for the whole thing to be done on a paramilitary basis through private contractors, effectively allowing private persons to control a foreign region for their own enrichment. Both of these options would strike most people as remarkably imperialistic bordering on pure conquest, which I think is why most previous regime changes have had as their plan the establishment of puppet governments owing allegiance to the U.S. but sovereign in most visible ways. This reduces long term costs while generating revenue and allowing for various locations for military bases as part of the deal. One nation where this was distinctly not done was in Libya, but I think obtaining oil there was actually a secondary goal and therefore the complete instability there doesn't mean that the primary objective necessarily botched.

For the U.S. to simply occupy a region of Iraq/Syria, however, would indeed be an aggressive move, especially towards Russia and Iran. Even China would probably not like it at all.

Greg Davidson

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Re: Election Day
« Reply #171 on: April 12, 2016, 10:17:05 PM »
Quote
As for ISIS territory, taking their oil is a small price to pay to stop the damage they are doing. That's damage being done that can never be undone

ISIS stole their oil - if we fight ISIS, do we get to keep it?  Should we have kept France in World War 2?   

cherrypoptart

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Re: Election Day
« Reply #172 on: April 13, 2016, 08:08:39 AM »
We take their oil by taking over the country (ISIS territory held now minus some given back to Iraq and Syria and of course the Kurds get to own and keep everything they are claiming since they are the only ones really fighting) and flooding it with tens if not hundreds of millions of people from all over the world looking for an escape from poverty, violence, lack of opportunity, disease, starvation, and all the rest of it of course especially including those seeking to escape Muslim oppression. It will be a liberal's paradise with tolerance for all. Every race and every religion. It will even feature gay marriage and transgendered restrooms. Then some of those people can receive training to work in the oil industry and we will even set up our own refineries over there so we don't have to ship it to America for that process which will help save on transportation and reduce the carbon footprint and so help to save the world from global warming. The American flag will fly over this new colony with their own flag that the citizens come up with underneath it. After working a "tour" of ten years and making a contribution while staying out of trouble, these people and their children will be eligible to become American citizens. "Service means citizenship! Would you like to know more?"

In thirty to fifty years the non-American citizens of this colony can vote on becoming a state, their own independent nation, or something in between like Puerto Rico. The American citizens can decide if they want to stay there as ex-pats or come stateside or do whatever else they want to do where ever they want to do it with the new skills they have learned and the education they have received and all the money they've earned and saved.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2016, 08:19:28 AM by cherrypoptart »

cherrypoptart

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Re: Election Day
« Reply #173 on: April 13, 2016, 08:14:08 AM »
If we liberated France from Germany and then they turned into something like ISIS and attacked us on our home soil with their terrorists so that we had to go back in there or keep watching our civilians die then yes we should have taken France. As it is we have occupied Germany and Japan with tens of thousands of troops for over seventy years now. And Korea for decades as well. Was that a mistake? Or did it work?

So why should ISIS be any different?

And Japan pays for about half of our military expenses to occupy them. Why should ISIS get off any easier? And how else will they pay besides oil? Mineral deposits? Well of course we will take those too.

If some other country like China or Russia wanted to go in there and wipe out ISIS then I'd have no problem with them doing the exact same thing I'm suggesting. It wouldn't hurt to make an example out of them so nobody tries this again.

If you've got a better idea then please do share. So far I'm not really seeing anything. Only Trump's idea looks like it would be effective.

Fenring

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Re: Election Day
« Reply #174 on: April 13, 2016, 08:55:14 AM »
We take their oil by taking over the country (ISIS territory held now minus some given back to Iraq and Syria and of course the Kurds get to own and keep everything they are claiming since they are the only ones really fighting) and flooding it with tens if not hundreds of millions of people from all over the world

So basically you're saying American should create Israel 2.0. I'm sure Netanyahu would be very pleased. But tell me, what authority does the U.S. have to found a nation in this way?

D.W.

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Re: Election Day
« Reply #175 on: April 13, 2016, 09:45:10 AM »
We take their oil by taking over the country (ISIS territory held now minus some given back to Iraq and Syria and of course the Kurds get to own and keep everything they are claiming since they are the only ones really fighting) and flooding it with tens if not hundreds of millions of people from all over the world

So basically you're saying American should create Israel 2.0. I'm sure Netanyahu would be very pleased. But tell me, what authority does the U.S. have to found a nation in this way?
You say that like it would be an odd thing.  This is pretty much the way the world worked until recently.  I think the compelling argument against it is not, "what gives us the authority?", but rather, when we do so we open the door for a might makes right world stage.  You can't scold the aggression of other nations.  You cannot try to force people to hold to former treaties.  At that point all you can do (when others follow our example) is to defend with force our allies who come under threat of occupation or conquest. 

While gaining some rewards for our efforts sounds good at first glance, I'm much more inclined to a foreign policy of ignore it till you can't.  Surgically smash the hell out of the trouble spot / assassinate the leadership.  Then stay out and loudly proclaim, "There is more where that came from.  Reshuffle and try again."

cherrypoptart

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Re: Election Day
« Reply #176 on: April 13, 2016, 09:57:26 AM »
Asking what authority do we have is one question. A good question.

Another good question is what duty do we have?

Don't we have a duty to protect the Christians over there who are having their throats cut and their blood drained into a bucket because they refuse to convert to Islam?

Or is that just too bad, so sad?

Don't we have a duty to stop ISIS from raising a generation, or more, of psychopathic killers from the cradle to their suicide bomb detonation?

What was our authority to bomb the hell out of the Christians defending themselves from violent Muslims in Bosnia?

What did those Muslims do once they had the upper hand? Burn the Christian churches and force the Christians to flee?

It's funny how you don't see the results of our actions in the news anymore.

Our duty to defend the innocent from evil is what gives us the authority.

And those innocent people include our own citizens here in America such as those murdered in San Bernadino. The longer we sit back and allow ISIS to thrive, the more effective and influential their recruiting efforts will become. Nothing breeds imitation like success. Again, that's why we need to make an example out of them.

And in this case we can't just go in and take them out and then leave because this Islamic blood phoenix would just rise again.

And what authority did we have to occupy Japan and Germany? Well whatever that authority was we have the same authority to do it to ISIS, and the oil is justly due reparations, much of which will be paid out to the victims of ISIS and their families.

But don't worry. There's basically no way we will do what I'm suggesting so we're going to try it Obama's way and just keep failing, each new innocent victim of ISIS another reminder of that continuing failure to stop them.

AI Wessex

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Re: Election Day
« Reply #177 on: April 13, 2016, 10:09:24 AM »
Took bad you only seem to extend your concern for "innocents" to Christians.  That's a big reason we're in such a big mess.

NobleHunter

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Re: Election Day
« Reply #178 on: April 13, 2016, 10:12:06 AM »
I'm not sure which is worse: that cherry thinks the suggested course of action is moral or that he thinks it would work.

cherrypoptart

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Re: Election Day
« Reply #179 on: April 13, 2016, 10:13:14 AM »
Just because I only mentioned Christians doesn't mean we shouldn't protect the Jews and Yazidis and Kurds along with the gay and emo Muslims and everyone else. I thought that would be covered under the broad umbrella of those suffering from Muslim oppression, including of course other Muslims such as the one in Scotland who was just murdered by a fellow Muslim for saying that he hoped all his Christian friends had a happy Easter holiday.

Fenring

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Re: Election Day
« Reply #180 on: April 13, 2016, 10:18:10 AM »
You say that like it would be an odd thing.  This is pretty much the way the world worked until recently.

Right. It was called colonialism :)

D.W.

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Re: Election Day
« Reply #181 on: April 13, 2016, 10:44:51 AM »
You say that like it would be an odd thing.  This is pretty much the way the world worked until recently.

Right. It was called colonialism :)
And shockingly when the powerful countries decide, OK things are good enough.  We're content with the status quo.  Those who didn't get the hand they want at the game seem a bit upset.  That we think we can quit while ahead and change the rules, then act affronted when others object, is the strange thing.

If you want a stable world where colonialism is not the solution you need to be benevolent winners.  It is impossible to reason with people and get them to accept a lesser role in the world as their fate.  We can either be colonialists, wall ourselves in our fortress and try to forget the world outside or we can improve things for others to the point where they no longer resent us.

Quit blaming religious differences for our problems.  It is, and has always been, a smoke screen to excuse tactics, direct others towards a common goal or to firewall against total destruction in the hopes of reclaiming lost power.

Fenring

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Re: Election Day
« Reply #182 on: April 13, 2016, 12:24:21 PM »
I'm not quite sure I'm following you, D.W...

D.W.

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Re: Election Day
« Reply #183 on: April 13, 2016, 12:44:14 PM »
I'm not looking for followers.  :)

I wasn't directing the "quite blaming" part specifically at your quote.  If that was the confusion.

Greg Davidson

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Re: Election Day
« Reply #184 on: April 14, 2016, 01:58:42 AM »
cherry,

Unfortunately, your comments indicate that your hatred is more towards Muslims than towards killers. I'll take one quote in particular, "What was our authority to bomb the hell out of the Christians defending themselves from violent Muslims in Bosnia?"  The primary instigators of genocide in the former Yugoslavia were Christians. If you are reading materials that somehow make Muslims the primary instigators of that killing (instead of Orthodoc Christian Serbs focusing on killing Croat Catholics), re-evaluate your sources.

As I have repeatedly demonstrated with data, since 9/11 the hands that have killed the most people on Earth have not been Muslims, they have been Christian.  There are Muslim killers of Christians, and Christian killers of Muslims, and Tamil suicide bombers killing hindus, and Buddhist killers oppressing Muslims. In recent years in the US, the terrorist who have killed the most Americans have been non-Muslim right wing extremists. A lot of people have killed a lot of other people, but except in terms of television coverage, there is no basis in fact for any belief that Muslims in general are a particular threat

Rather than your irrational focus on Muslim killers, I propose that we agree that we are against all killers. We oppose all extremists who kill in the name of their ideology. And to the degree we have a duty to protect non-Americans, we value all of those non-American lives the same rather than putting disproportionate focus on some killed by one particular flavor of extremist rather than another.
 

AI Wessex

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Re: Election Day
« Reply #185 on: April 14, 2016, 06:31:47 AM »
Religion is a red herring when trying to count up mass deaths attributed to "causes" over the centuries.  Power, greed, sociopathic charismatic leadership drive people to commit to massacres and all-out wars that measure success by the number of people who are killed and territory that is gained.  Followers go along either enthusiastically or out of fear and the people they attack fight back with similar expectations and fears.

It's people who do these atrocious things.  They all carry the banner of some Great Cause, either to expand the influence of or fiercely defend their religion, country or way of life.  The pathetic reality is that the losers in these wars either assimilate and lose their earlier stalwart identity or carry the deep scars and seek revenge in later generations.

Blaming religion instead of "human nature" is an excuse to continue the cycle of faceless killing into the next millennium.  Breaking the cycle, rather than accusing one side or another of being the villain, is the only way humanity can survive.

cherrypoptart

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Re: Election Day
« Reply #186 on: April 14, 2016, 09:21:32 AM »
Yeah. And don't forget the bathtub killers, Obama's top priority since they apparently murder more Americans every year than Muslims. I'm sorry but it's just not possible to take the "innocence of Muslims" seriously especially when we are now seeing the release of evidence that the Saudi government itself was probably helping the 9-11 terrorists and we know that Pakistan was hiding bin Laden. I guess what you assert makes sense though, but only if you agree with Obama that the violent Muslims like the ones in ISIS and al-Qaeda are not "true" Muslims. In that case there is no Muslim violence at all.

Here's a little bit of good news though.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/beast-gobbling-fighters-iraq-us-215837762.html

"Washington (AFP) - An American-made Iraqi army tank that locals have fondly nicknamed "The Beast" is playing a major role driving the Islamic State group from a town on the frontlines, a Pentagon official said Wednesday."

Maybe it's just propaganda but that's fine because it brings up a point I want to make anyway. I don't want to go into Iraq and Syria and destroy ISIS and take the oil ISIS is using to fund itself and terrorism. It's just that it needs to be done. The sooner ISIS is stopped, the better off the world will be. It doesn't really matter who does it. If Iraq with U.S. help and Syria with Russian help can do it that is definitely the best case scenario. But just letting ISIS continue to build its strength and attack the heart of Europe as well as inspire attacks in America is the worst possible option.

But I'm willing to listen to ideas, for instance Greg what do you think is the best way to handle it then?

cherrypoptart

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Re: Election Day
« Reply #187 on: April 14, 2016, 12:14:35 PM »
Going back to the issue of Trump being the most likely candidate willing to expose government corruption, especially much of what Obama is hiding, this is an example:

http://cnsnews.com/commentary/tom-fitton/what-does-fbi-have-obama-gang

" By Tom Fitton | April 13, 2016

Barack Obama at a news conference last month with Rahm Emanuel. They and another Obama staffer, Valerie Jarrett, have been interviewed in connection with the investigation of Illinois Gov. Rod Blagojevich.

For several years we have been seeking records of then President-elect Barack Obama’s interview with two FBI agents and two assistant U.S. attorneys regarding former Illinois Governor Rod Blagojevich, who was sentenced to fourteen years in federal prison for attempting to sell Obama’s vacated Senate seat...

... The FBI contends the release of these records “could reasonably be expected” to interfere with law enforcement proceedings...

... Writing in The Washington Examiner, Rudy Takala noted, “There are no enforcement proceedings related to the case known to be pending, leading critics to charge that the agency's denial is politically motivated...

... Well, yes.  This lawsuit highlights the personal corruption issues of Barack Obama.  He and his closest aides were interviewed by the FBI in a criminal investigation, and his administration doesn’t want Americans to have the details. The Chicago way shouldn’t TRUMP the American people’s right to know.

It won’t if we have anything to do with it."

---------------------------------------------------

I put the TRUMP in all caps. What did Obama know and when did he know it? What is "the most transparent administration in history" hiding? If Bernie or Hillary get elected will we ever find out? Not a chance. What about Kasich or some other Pollyanna? Not likely. Cruz might tell us but he won't gloat as much as he should about it. Trump will gleefully expose the massive corruption of Obama without hesitation and publicly scoff and ridicule the naivete of most Obama supporters while revealing the true colors of those who know Obama is corrupt and just don't care or know exactly how corrupt he is and delight in the fact that he has gotten away with so much. Until now.

AI Wessex

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Re: Election Day
« Reply #188 on: April 14, 2016, 05:45:18 PM »
It goes without saying (but needs to be said) that you can always tell the FBI is lying because they are saying what you don't want to hear.  You also know with a high degree of certainty that Obama has something to hide because he hasn't revealed confidential evidence that would say otherwise.  And if he did, it would be flamingly obvious that he didn't reveal the REAL evidence that would prove his guilt (in whatever it is you're hoping to find him guilty of).

One thing is pretty clear, however.  If we don't break this curtain of silence we'll never know how deeply implicated he was in the Vince Foster murder or the Rahm Emanuel Bar Mitzvah atrocities.  No rush, we'll find out about all of these things when DRUMPF takes command.  The little women and little men in the overfed bureaucracy will all be on their knees begging him to tell them to open up.

Argue with me if you want, but I have to warn you that I'm not listening.

cherrypoptart

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Re: Election Day
« Reply #189 on: April 15, 2016, 08:04:08 AM »
http://www.newsweek.com/yezedis-islamic-state-christians-sex-slaves-human-rights-iraq-447842

Why Has The World Forgotten Islamic State's Female Sex Slaves?
By Skye Wheeler On 4/14/16 at 11:58 AM

"Twenty months ago the Islamic State (ISIS) abducted thousands of Yezidi women and girls as the extremist group swept through their villages in northern Iraq in the middle of a terrible summer. Many were forced to become sex slaves for the group’s fighters. Hundreds remain enslaved and many of those who have escaped are still reliving the trauma and often not getting the help they desperately need."

This is Obama's failure.

With all the talk from blacks about slavery you don't hear any of them least of all Obama talking about putting a stop to modern day slavery and more importantly actually doing something about it.

Instead the focus is on assassinating police officers by shooting them in the back as happened again in Houston.

http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_29765568/latest-someone-detained-over-deputy-constable-shooting?source=rss

"Clopton had assisted a colleague with a traffic stop and was leaning into a patrol vehicle when he was shot from behind."

This is what Trump and his supporters mean when they say they want to make America great again. It means putting a stop to ISIS and modern day slavery over there, securing the border and cracking down on sex slavery right here in America, and stopping the war on police. We always here about how dangerous rhetoric is and how what we should be concerned with most right now is anti-terrorist rhetoric that will cause violence against Muslims but liberals like Obama and BLM don't seem to appreciate their own arguments may also apply to their hateful attacks on police many of which are built on outright lies. Or do they appreciate it and that's why they do it?

So this is another part of the Trump draw. People are tired of everything getting turned upside down where the bad guys are the victims and the good guys like the police are made out to be evil.

D.W.

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Re: Election Day
« Reply #190 on: April 15, 2016, 09:27:27 AM »
cherry, can you try to phrase that again?  Why is it Obama's failure.  How does that tie into or contrast against assassinations of the police?   What is Trump's policy of dealing with ISIS' capture of girls in another country, held in another country?  What is is policy on dealing with, or ignoring assassinations of police officers? 

What point is it that post was suppose to make? 

Bad-guys in good-guy cloths are a worse threat than bad-guys.  Particularly bad-guys in another country.  But... That isn't necessarily the president's job.  Is that the point?

cherrypoptart

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Re: Election Day
« Reply #191 on: April 15, 2016, 10:18:58 AM »
Obama pulled out of Iraq too early.  I mean that's just obvious. The mistake wasn't going into Iraq. The mistake was abandoning those people when they needed us most. Obama doesn't want to do what needs to be done to stop slavery over there which is boots on the ground. Doing that will amount to admission of failure.

Obama continually insults the police and takes the side of blacks even when they are criminals.


There are some bad cops, no doubt about it, but many of these high profile cases are of good cops acting appropriately against criminals such as in Ferguson. The federal investigation there proved it. Has Obama come out and made the case for black people showing more respect for the cops? No. Obama himself has no respect for the police. Why would he when in his book he brags about enthusiastically trying every recreational drug he could get his hands on?

Why doesn't Obama get out there and go over the Ferguson case and put it quite bluntly to blacks that the cop was right and BLM is idiotic to use that case to justify anything at all?

http://nypost.com/2014/08/19/cop-involved-in-ferguson-shooting-has-fractured-eye-socket-report/

"The black teen killed by a white cop in Ferguson, Mo., viciously attacked the officer as he sat in his patrol car, delivering a bone-crunching punch that shattered the cop’s eye socket, a report claimed Tuesday.

Officer Darren Wilson suffered an “orbital blowout fracture to the eye socket,” Gateway Pundit reported, citing sources in the St. Louis County Police Department and the DA’s office."





Here's what a cop has to say about it:

http://www.bizpacreview.com/2015/04/30/sheriff-clarke-defends-cops-against-obama-insults-disdain-for-the-police-200247

"Clarke, who accused Obama with showing a “general disdain” for police officers, cautioned about a rush to judgement."

------------------------------------------------------------------

"General disdain." Perfect. He put that quite well.

----------------------------------------------------------------

On Tuesday, Obama denounced the burning and looting that took place in Baltimore, but after pointing to Ferguson, Mo., he added that “there are some police who aren’t doing the right thing.”

“I think there are police departments that have to do some soul-searching,” Obama said.

--------------------------------------------------------------------


Again, Obama's own federal investigation cleared the cop in Ferguson and yet that is still used as a rallying cry for Black Lives Matter and I suppose it's just a coincidence that with the President deriding the police we are getting a rash of cop shootings where people aren't even involved in a crime but they just walk up to a cop from behind and start shooting. Was that a popular thing to do before Obama? Well apparently it is now.

So the point is that Obama is a miserable excuse for a President and Trump will be so much better you won't even believe it. It's going to be a huge improvement right out of the gate just with the difference in attitude where Trump loves America and wants to make it great again as opposed to Obama who hates America and must bring it down low to build it back up the way he wants it.

Wayward Son

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Re: Election Day
« Reply #192 on: April 15, 2016, 10:36:21 AM »
ISIS recently released a list of Muslim-Americans targeted for death because they have become "apostates" (not that ISIS actually wants to kill apostates, because then they'd have to go and shoot themselves :)).  Interestingly enough, these same Muslim-Americans have also been attacked (verbally) by the Far Right for being terrorist sympathizers.

I guess the Far Right shares more with ISIS than they'd like to admit. ;)

AI Wessex

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Re: Election Day
« Reply #193 on: April 15, 2016, 10:52:50 AM »
Quote
Obama pulled out of Iraq too early.  I mean that's just obvious. The mistake wasn't going into Iraq. The mistake was abandoning those people when they needed us most. Obama doesn't want to do what needs to be done to stop slavery over there which is boots on the ground. Doing that will amount to admission of failure.
It wasn't a mistake going into Iraq if you couldn't see that it would destabilize the entire region. BTW, I'm talking about the first Iraq War, which even though it was a huge mistake pales against the ongoing horror created by the second invasion. 

Frankly, it wouldn't have made a hell of a lot of difference if Obama had reversed course from the US withdrawal that Bush had negotiated.  *WE* have to accept responsibility for the complete debacle of the Iraqi state that *WE* created after *WE* installed the government, which has been widely cited as the most corrupt government in the world.  Get that?  WE created the most corrupt government in the WORLD, and you're complaining that we aren't still sticking around to sacrifice our blood and treasure to prop it up. 

How many of your military buddies do you think it's worth letting die or come back maimed to do that?

NobleHunter

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Re: Election Day
« Reply #194 on: April 15, 2016, 10:59:59 AM »
Quote
Obama doesn't want to do what needs to be done to stop slavery over there which is boots on the ground.
Last I heard, the only candidate who proposed boots on the ground was Graham. So, none of the current candidate are suggesting re-invading Iraq. Trump is only suggesting murdering women and children.

cherrypoptart

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Re: Election Day
« Reply #195 on: April 15, 2016, 11:31:19 AM »
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/aug/10/donald-trump-islamic-state-put-boots-ground-take-o/

Donald Trump on Islamic State: Put boots on the ground, ‘take the oil for our country’

Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump on Monday said his plan for combating the Islamic State terrorist group would be to “knock the hell out of” them and take back the oil the group controls in the Middle East.

“They have great money because they have oil. They have much oil,” Mr. Trump said via phone on MSNBC’s “Morning Joe.” “Any place where they have oil, I would knock the hell out of ‘em, and I would put boots on the ground in those areas; I would take the oil. Because what you’re doing is you’re cutting off a big portion of their money source.”

------------------------------------------------------------------

"Trump is only suggesting murdering women and children."

As opposed to letting ISIS continue to do it for us?

ISIS has already proven they are willing to take the fight to us. They aren't just murdering "their" women and children. They are murdering ours. Should we just sit back and play with our drones until they launch another 9-11 type attack, meaning not with planes but something catastrophic for which we are unprepared like a dirty bomb, poisoning a water supply, blowing up a dam, etc?

Like I said, Obama doesn't take the threat seriously. Neither do most of his supporters. Obama's more worried about getting attacked by his bathtub.

NobleHunter

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Re: Election Day
« Reply #196 on: April 15, 2016, 11:36:12 AM »
Sorry, I don't keep up to date on what Trump's lying about now.

I'm dismayed at how little Trump and his supporters seem to care about not murdering people.

cherrypoptart

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Re: Election Day
« Reply #197 on: April 15, 2016, 12:10:35 PM »
Standing back and watching people get murdered and turned into sex slaves the way ISIS is doing when we can put a stop to it isn't any more moral than pulling the trigger or raping them ourselves. I guess that's the disconnect. Liberals release violent criminals from prison because of prison overcrowding, a 5-4 Supreme Court decision the liberal justices came down on the side of allowing new victims to suffer, and feel no responsibility for the crimes caused by their lack of action. It looks like that's the difference between a liberal and a conservative. If we put boots on the ground then all the collateral damage, the women and children who die because of course ISIS will hide behind them and use them as human shields is our fault, not the fault of ISIS. But if we do nothing and let those children be turned into psychopathic monsters used as brainwashed weapons by ISIS and if girls are turned into sex slaves and baby making factories to pump out a whole generation of ISIS soldiers to rinse and repeat this cycle then that's all on ISIS. Nothing to do with us even if we could have stopped it. Obama could have nipped it in the bud but as usual the threat was underestimated and downplayed. We all remember the "JV team". ISIS is still in its infancy. Taking them out now will reduce the misery quotient of the world much more than sitting back with a coke and some popcorn and just watching the cancer metastasize because cutting it out will be painful; it's going to be a lot less painful than letting it grow. That's what Trump understands that Obama, Hillary, Bernie, and even many of the Republican candidates don't.

D.W.

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Re: Election Day
« Reply #198 on: April 15, 2016, 12:17:44 PM »
One of my biggest gripes about Obama has been his habit of attempting to monopolize on social outrage before the facts are in.  So I'm with you on that criticism.  How you get from A to B I still don't entirely follow, but you do make what I consider a good point.  Iraq, I'll just have to agree to disagree.  If anything he dragged his feet on the withdraw. 

cherrypoptart

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Re: Election Day
« Reply #199 on: April 15, 2016, 12:37:11 PM »
I can accept y'all's disagreement and put it another way, as the doctor's say, "First do no harm." And along with that don't make matters worse. With our history, with war in general, and with the way this war against ISIS would have to be fought on their terms not only behind women and children but against women and children, I can understand anyone not wanting that on their conscience and understand the concern that we will only cause even more suffering no matter how sincere our desire to help since that's about all we've really achieved up to now. It's just tough to sit back and watch. But I know the right answer isn't always that you have to do something, do anything, even if it's throwing a drowning man a hammer to hope that will help fix his situation.